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Phoenix Sounds Death Knell for BIOS
Anonymous Coward writes "The sky will fall next.... Betanews is carrying a story about Phoenix ditching the trusty old BIOS and moving to 'Trusted Computing'... ya right... Time to stock up on those old motherboards boys!" A follow-up/analysis on this story.
Or buy a motherboard with a BIOS that doesn't come from Phoenix.
Last time I checked, Phoenix wasn't the only company on Earth that made motherboard BIOS setups.
I'm sure that something else will pop up.
Or, another idea.. write/call/visit Phoenix and tell them that you think their idea sucks. Give their 1-800 # a call. Vote with your wallet, as usual.
Time to move.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
If this isn't a troll then it would make a good one...
Anyway, even if Doom 3 is a fantastic game, the Mac will still have a lack of games; one extra isn't going to make much difference.
I suppose you could say that there will be lots of Doom 3-engined FPS coming out after that, but they won't necessarily appear on the Mac, even if the engine is there and available. The company might lack Mac playtesters if nothing else.
graspee
Never, unless of course you meant security for anyone except the computers owner. Then it makes plenty of sense to make the computer a remote-controlled slave terminal...
I wonder if the "trusted" version of Windows will be running programs for third parties, for whom Microsoft has sold their users CPU cycles ? After all, there's allready projects paying for computer time, and DRM would make this secure (impossible forge results). Why let users profit, when one can use them to profit Corporation ?
Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.
As part of the "trustworthy computing" model established by Microsoft, Phoenix d-NA will leverage support for Redmond's CryptoAPI (CAPI) to deliver intrinsic security on systems running Windows and .NET applications
Why do I find leveraging any single crypto or security solution from one single vendor for the entire system worthy of concern more than trust? Nevermind that it's Microsoft, with an examplary track record of security expertise and openness with standards.
Not for me, nosiree.
"A door is what a dog is perpetually on the wrong side of" - Ogden Nash
Does anyone have a list of what motherboards use Phenoix BIOS? I'm going to put a compuer together soon, and i want to know which to avoid.
Browse at -1, because trolls are often the most creative part of
When will this industry ever learn that there's no such thing as a magic bullet? Let's see, just off the top of my head, there was OOP, not to mention Extreme Programming, and now the apparent holy grail of security, "Trusted Computing".
Well, guess what, writing high quality software is hard. Writing high quality, secure software is *really* hard. And there's nothing that will change that.
Ok, so you, me and 10,000 other geeks will buy non-trusted computing motherboards. Meanwhile, Joe Sixpack and all his buddies ignorantly purchase millions of the "trusted" and "safe" offering.
I'm glad mac users get Doom 3, but a full library of games it does not make.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
The B in BIOS stands for BASIC.
Browse at -1, because trolls are often the most creative part of
No... just time to get a Mac and forget all about Microsoft's DRM push
And suddenly Joe Sixpack and his buddies discover they can't download music anymore. And they tell their friends...
By design, Phoenix's CSS transfers digital security, network management and disaster recovery away from the control of software to hardware,...
What happens when a bug is found in the hardware?
In software it can be hard to fix, in hardware it is even harder(no pun intended).
Death has been proven to be 99% fatal in lab rats.
People pay Gartner for worse... managers and marketing people are always looking for pre-digested "facts" to allow them to make decisions without doing any real research. I used to work as a technical marketing manager, and dealt with Gartner (and other analysts) frequently. Their level of expertise is suspect, and they issue definitive statements with questionable data.
Remember their noises about "Total Cost of Ownership" a few years ago? I applied their methodology to a teakettle, and established that the TCO of said teakettle was well over $4,000.
--Larry
Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by incompetence
My Xbox has a "Trusted Computing"-style BIOS and OS (the dashboard). That didn't stop me from modding it and being able to play videos/photos with Xbox Media Center, a kind of homebrew version of XP Media Center Edition for Xbox. Yes, I know the Xbox is a poor example because it's a homogeneous platform. But as long as there is demand for non-TCP motherboards, manufacturers will build boards without DRM. And as far as I'm concerned, the whole idea of TCP becoming mandatory by law is BS. Yes, the assbags in Washington could pass a bill like the DMCA for DRM-loving corps, but has the DMCA really stopped the spread of DeCSS or the Diebold memos?
You know what? I am happy they are finally moving to a new (type of) BIOS. Why is it that we humans, who are supposed to be the smartest species on the planet, fail to comprehend basic necessities? Like CHANGE for example. Why do we resist change so much? Why does the smallest change to even the most simplistic thing always cause so much resistance, FUD? The BIOS (bless its soul) has outlived itself many times over. It is time for it to get a revamp. Everything else has, why not the BIOS? After all, although most people do not pay attention to the black screen with the white letters anymore, it is a crucial part of the computer system. It would be a mistake to categorize this as another *attempt* by MS to *take over the world*. I am glad they are changing it, because the BIOS is indeed an old technology, which it is not necessarily broken, but has long been due for a fix. If a tighter security, and faster boot, better performance and a whole other bunch of problems were solved with a new BIOS then we should not complain but welcome it.
The phaomnneil pweor of the hmuan mnid. Fcuknig amzanig eh!
My old 486-sx is still thrustworthy. I use it daily. It is almost 10 years old now. If i were to buy a brand new state of the art computer now i'd probably survive 15 years or so. And really, don't you think anyone has figured out how to run Linux on TCPA by then? (we're speaking yr 2018)
GAAH! MY PRINTER IS ON FIRE!!! PUT IT OUT! PUT IT OUT!
Computers fit a particular definition - they are general purpose ordination devices - make them any less capable and they are no longer computers and cannot be sold as such.
This is a good point. My computer is a general perpose symbolic manipulator. Telling my what symbols I can manipulate and in what way is a bit like selling a coffee maker that only works with Starbucks brand beans, its not a coffee maker anymore its a starbucks maker. A few successful law suits against manufactures of this new non-computer machines demanding they not be sold as computers would interesting.
Repeal the 17th Amendment TODAY! Also Please Read http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html
And Joe sixpack and his friends are too lazy to do anything about it and too stupid to know what to do if they weren't. Joe sixpack and his friends have been having their noses rubbed in shit by our wonderful and pure democratic government and perfect serene friendly capitalism bread and butter spawned corporations for generations. They've always just rolled over and begged before... what makes you think that's going to change now?
;)
For hundreds of years joe sixpack and his friends have gotten weaker and weaker. The big recognizable first piece was centralized citizenship after the civil war, prior to that the only citizens of the USA lived in washington, everybody else was a citizen of their state which in turn was a member of the union.
Next came the military, the constitution set up a division of powers, the central government was not supposed to have a standing army, that was supposed to be left to the states, while the central government maintained the navy. This wasn't random, it gave the states themselves the greatest power in domestic defense and limited the central government to only the direct military power to counter foreign foes (of course the militia's could be rallied). The air force was of course not covered in the Constitution. If you pay attention you'll notice the central government makes sure they are covered if this falls through, the navy is still the most highly funded of the forces, having within it all 3 types of armed forces. The Marines for instance are really just a subset of the Navy. The Navy's air power and number of craft are almost as extensive as the air force itself. And I guess it goes without saying, the navy of course has a navy
Now after centralizing authority and military power the government then started disarming the citizens. Deciding to do no more than pay lip service to the 2nd amendment (after all the government certainly doesn't feel people might need arms to overthrow it like the forefathers who had to do just that did when they put it in!). Now guns are being taken away, the classes of arms available to citizens has been reduced and reduced, arms are VERY closely watched by our police state.
Since these things became stronger, than the last significant threat (assault riffles) has been removed from citizens hands, the government has proceeded to clench down. Showing it's force in foreign countries (iraq for instance), using "Terrorism" which was likely at least inadvertantly funded by our own CIA as an excuse to give federal agents more and more authority to lock down and control the population.
Now to ensure Joe sixpack complies with all this they have been brainwashing him in school. School curriculum's are of course regulated by the state. They have to be in accordance with state tests, if you've noticed the state regulations tend to be most specific in matters of US History, where the government makes sure that text books and tests teach the materials in it's own interpretation of history. The interpretation that paints a picture of country being oppressed and fighting the good fight for independence. Supporting the common man etc etc etc. Rather than the truth, a bunch of rich men, did not like paying taxes and did not like the fact that england had given trade monopolies to rich men in england instead of them. Well over 80% of the population were loyal to the crown, more than that before war happened an innocents were caught in the crossfire. The enlistments in that war and pretty much every patriotic cause thereafter have been founded on a grain of truth buried in a stack of propoganda.
Our government lies to us and herds of us like sheep. It teaches us a revised history in school. It teaches conformity in school. Picture our children being stamped one by one in a great convoluted Jello mold. It convinces us to give up our liberties one piece at a time. It okay to whine about one piece or another, but it happens so often on such a regular basis nowdays we hardly remember what
If there's a market, there will be people to cater to it.
Disagree..
*at the moment* Apple can't afford to screw the customers. Microsoft can because 1) their stuff comes pre-installed on most computers and 2) most customers' files and business are too entrenched in Windows to make the switch easily.
As long as the price of switching/retraining/moving files remains higher than whatever inconveniences Microsoft throws our way, they'll do it.
I would count on Apple to keep the user experience priority #1, as long as they are underdogs. They'd be stupid not to.
Umm that's the point, if this happens, OSS will still be around, but it won't be possible to run it anymore. The system will only boot windows.
While it's gonna get ugly in the US, I don't suspect that China would use a BIOS with built-in spyware or DRM. China, along with the largest population, has both the manufacturing power to create motherboards sans M$-DRM.
.... that will end this quickly.
In fact, it would be very surprising to me that most of the EU coutnries would submit to this kind of US verndor lock-in. I would expect to see non-TCP motherboards available for a while.
And when parts of the internet are "closed off" by TCP "checking" routers, then all holy hell will break loose. Wait until our neighbors can't get to "playboy.com"
What's keeping a computer from booting up, posting, then instead of reading from ffff in memory, it goes straight to an OS on disk?
Bios's are almost identical, to the point that you can probably marginalize them into the driver category of most OS's these days. In a few years BIOS won't exist or if it does, it'll exist in some convoluted fashon or version of what it is today. I personally like the idea of having a bios on the hardware; something to tell me what's broken, give me error codes, etc. I see it as something that, due to being inexpensive will gain features such as full text error code outputs or if persay some obscure component on the motherboard died, instead of outputing moorse code it can give you a voice readout "Motherboard component 74x0x06 is dead. This is a fatal failure and the motherboard is dead, please return to manufacturer".
Either way, I don't think motherboard manufacturers will go ahead and start installing distribuited computing garble on their machines so that they can only be used by microsoft systems. It'll kill their market share in other markets such as server markets and it'll also make them susseptable to future abuse.
Candy-Coated Knowledge
Apple's die-hard fans are not going to leave them because they can't play Britney Spears CDs
Apple's die hard fans will eat it up in the same way that the love the DRM they are subjected to today. Hell, one can hardly point out here that ITMS is DRM without getting modded down by the "we love Jobs the Leader" contigent.
Sure, Apple's implementation might leave the user a little more slack, but they have shown with ITMS that they do want to use DRM, and that their users love it. The fact that ITMS has been cracked has got to be a little annoying: when DRM hardware becomes cheap and ubiquitous, why would one expect that they will not want "protect" those tracks a little better?
isnt the majority of the net run on NONE Microsoft OS's?
THe routers are Linux, the webservers and blades are Linux/opensource.
The Sys admins will all require new hardware at some point, and the suppliers arent going to turn down a sale.
These customers wont accept this defective hardware, and if those machines dont work the internet will crumble - Microsoft cant corner the ENTIRE market over the course of a weekend.
Microsoft NEEDS the network, because after all, what is the point of a Trusted computer if its got nothing to do.
Therefore, this decision only effects Home users with their little Towers and AOL Cds
liqbase
So last time i checked the bioses are flashable? what is to stop me from developing my own, XboX like flash/mod for motherboard? If it has benn done for xbox which has considerably smaller userbase, what is to stop people for dong it for mobos? Are the price and inconvenience are the only 2 obstacles?
Live for the present, learn from the past, and dream of the future!
"'Trustworthy computing' means that Microsoft can trust that we didn't hack our (their) system. It doesn't mean that we can trust Microsoft."
Keep saying it until it makes sense.You were 80% angel, 10% demon. The rest was hard to explain. - Over The Rhine
"Math in a song is good."-Linford
All the spec is going to do is something computer people have wanted for years- to ditch the old archaic BIOS. Im quite positive mobo companies arent going to design themselves out of customers, but that doesnt stop the paranoid schizos from posting their wild conspiracy theories.
Just like all these issues that Slashdotters get their panties in a bunch over, once it arrives they will realize it isnt the start of armageddon, nobody is tatooing 666 on their forhead, and they can begin searching for the next 'conspiracy'
Manipulate the moderator system! Mod someone as "overrated" today.
Right... The problem is how do companys get control of the computer? Would companies be given the ability to configure their computers? Add different OSes? If so, power users will find out how also. If not? Well, I don't see how this would give companies more control.... unless you're the Motherboard manufacturer....
Stop the Slashdot effect! Don't read the articles!
God I hope not. My $700 Linux box I built last year would've cost $2000 if I had to use a G4 Tower instead of the Athlon.
An appealing alternative would be an OpenFirmware implementation for x86. Seriously, don't you LIKE the idea of your machine starting into a native 32-bit (64 soon) environment? Your hardware being able to pass a concrete and well-defined device list to the kernel? Native filesystem support for your booting, so you don't have to use an interim loader like GRUB? Finally shedding the STUPID BACKWARDS 1980s IRQ/resource management system we STILL use for no good reason?
I'll bet Apple will stick with OF on PPC for a long time, and implement hardware DRM as a separate feature.
"Sometimes, I think Trent just needs a cup of hot chocolate and a blankie." -Tori Amos on Nine Inch Nails
This is a smart move by Microsoft that will wind up screwing Phoenix. Once Microsoft invents the soft-bios industry, it will produce its own firmware (give it 3 years) and SCREW PHOENIX like it screws every other company that ever had the honor of being a Microsoft "partner."
Why should I want to contact a PR person?
What can they do?
I'll communicate with my wallet.
The surprise isn't how often we make bad choices; the surprise is how seldom they defeat us.
Yow, there was actualy a /. interview of some guy at Pheonix a while back, and he clearly said that the TC stuff would be an option that motherboard makers could chose to implement or not.
I remember that interview. He danced around the primary issue which is "Will you make a motherboard that will refuse to boot non-MS signed bootloaders or kernels?". Basically all mobo manufacturers will implement this stuff (Longhorn Certified!) and part of the specs will specify that it is mandatory. The customer won't be able to do without it.
Well, if I can't program and have my programs run on the client's computer, guess what computers my client's will run?
:-)
:-)
Very often, we, the geeks (heh), are in a position to recommend (or buy) hardware for companies/clients/friends/relatives, and if we just recommend them to not buy anything with such restrictions built in (making our base by saying how 'restricted' the Hardware/OS is - as opposed to "where do you want to go today?") the world would be a happier and friendlier place
Another 'big' issue is that if they restrict non-signed software, that will discourage the use of Windows in CS schools (how can you simply open a file and read it if you might have to worry about digital signatures of the owner, etc.,) So in a few years, there will be more Linux/UNIX developers than Windows ones
"If anything can go wrong, it will." - Murphy
Who do you think the marketplace is? A bunch of disgrunted hobbyists? No, the serious market is system integrators - companies, large and small that assemble computers. If they are selling to corporate customers, these system integrators may want to deliver computers that can't be tampered with by users. Many corporate sysadmins might welcome additional weapons to fight against viruses, pirated software, etc. Unlike the slashdot crowd, they won't be viewing this technology through paranoid eyes, but rather asking, "What can it do for me?" And they'll see a lot of potential. A lot of help in keeping PCs in a known, trusted state, rather than corrupted by user actions.
The other major market is retail PCs. If a strong DRM solution becomes widely used, it will enable lots of entertainment content to be sold online. Everyone (except slashdot) knows this, so everyone is scrambling like mad to become that solution. So if this system is called "HappyPuppy" for example, consumers shopping for a new PC will make sure it has HappyPuppy because that lets them download their favorite songs cheaply. No retailer will buy any more PCs without HappyPuppy because they wouldn't sell.
To a normal person, HappyPuppy is an additional capability, like having a DVD drive. It is not a restriction. It doesn't stop him from doing anything he could do before. Contrary to slashdot mythology, it doesn't stop him from downloading, using or sharing illegal mp3s. Of course, there is no way to extract the HappyPuppy content into something like mp3s, but there never was.
I'm still suffering from this utter nightmare of Pentium III id codes that just made using the internet a living hell. No really, you remember when the sky fell back when they were announced?
/sarcasm
Also I'm upset because it's impossible to get around the DVD regions and watch discs from other countries. Asia fears the DMCA so much that it's impossible to find a player that does not submit to the region codes.
ok
Seriously, this isn't going to work. Taiwan will have cloned BIOSes out faster than you can say "Overclocking is popular!" and warez groups will have the can only run on trusted hardware feature of the next windows cracked faster than you can say "Product Activation".
Give it 8 months. Even if there isn't an outcry that gets it reversed or ignorable like the P3 chip codes, I'm betting some major MB manufacturer *coughABITcough* will have something like, dual bios, trusted/untrusted with a toggle between them.
As for network routers killing "untrusted" clients, how do businesses expect to keep their linux servers on the network? Yeah, I think either we'll be seeing other OSes support it, or it'll be turned off more often than on. Also what about network-aware appliances like attatched storage, printers etc? I doubt it'll be that easy to convince businesses to just toss them as incompatible. They probably will just patch their existing windows desktops and stay on 2000, xp, or 2003 or whatever doesn't have this nuisance. I know tons of places that still refuse to move up from 2000 to XP.
Also, if only "trusted" software runs, I'm curious how students will do programming assignments on their computers at college. Do they just stand in line for the woefully inadequate lab resources? Do they get "special for academic use only" versions of windows and MSVC that allows them to execute their own code? What does it mean for professional developers, no development station can ever be on the network because it can't be trusted? That's going to make for some intersting development and testing work.
Introducing the new Occam Fusion! Now with sqrt(-1) fewer blades!
This is not a privacy issue.
Product activation is much worse than forced activation. Do you really think you'll be able to re-install your copy of winXP in 10 years? Knowing MS, you'll be lucky if you can install it in 5. So if you have software or critical data that will not work with a newer version. This potential for lost data renders XP useless. Tax software has the same issue. I bought the software for my taxes every year from 1992 to 2001 I still have the software and every year when I do my taxes, I make a new back-up of the software and my returns from every previous year (in case the media deteriorates). For my 2002 taxes, I couldn't find software without activation, which means if I get audited in 5 years I can't access my retrun. That's why this was the first year I ever did my return by hand.
Compared to this, a minor thing like forced registration is a non-issue, especially since you can give false information or install without an internet connection
I can imagine Bill Gates walking into one of these cable network installations and seeing what kind of power they have over the local cable providers and thinking to himself that this is an insanely great idea (which means he had to come up with some way of making software subscription based, 'natch)...
-- Shamus
Bleah!
Now to get you in touch with reality:
No, you will not sue.
No, Bill Gates doesn't give a shit about you.
No, if you don't even have the spine to avoid Microsoft products, you also won't have the spine to sue them. You will just shut up, swallow it just like you swallowed WPA and will say that "you will sue" when (not if) they will do the next step.
No, even if you sued you wouldn't have a chance. With software you have already waived all rights, it essentially is a "take it or leave it" product. No customers ever won against a software maker in sueing for damages. And I'm talking about real damages here, not your laughable electrical bill.
There is only one way to hurt Microsoft and that is stopping using their products. Either you accept that fact and act accordingly or you continue to make empty threats against Microsoft on Slashdot.
The Evils of Hardware Digital Rights Management and Trustworthy Computing
Personal computers are amazing devices which have enhanced the productivity, the creativity, and even the cultural fabric of people the world over. One of the key strengths of personal computing technologies is that they allow users a fundamental degree of freedom to modify, upgrade, and operate their computers in any way they see fit. This affords users the power of choice when deciding which hardware peripheral, which operating system, and which program they wish to use on their computer. This choice and openness has helped foster innovation and creativity which has resulted in the Internet and the Internet culture that we enjoy today.
Sadly, there are short sighted persons in some large corporations in conjunction with certain government officials who wish to destroy the freedoms we currently enjoy. They wish to seize control of our personal computers and cripple them in order to create what they call a more "trustworthy" networked environment. They call this blatant trampling of consumer fair rights "Trustworthy Computing". There is nothing trustworthy about it.
Essentially they want to place controls in the hardware of your computer that will tell you which software you can and cannot run on it. Software you wish to run has to be "digitally signed and authenticated" by large media and software companies before you can use it on your computer. Want to make a backup copy of a song or a program on one of these new modified computers? Good luck. Digital Rights Management (DRM) will be built into these computers, restricting your ability to use and copy files as Hollywood executives see fit. Yes in essence you will no longer be the sole operator of your computer, you will in fact, have to seek electronic permission to run programs on it.
Phoenix Technologies, one of the largest makers of BIOS components for PC's (the BIOS is the basic ROM that controls your PC on a fundamental level) has announced their plans to launch their DRM enabled trustworthy computing BIOS. Customers who purchase computers with a Phoenix BIOS will be very limited when it comes to making certain choices on how they wish to operate their computer.
Video game consoles like the X-Box already work like this. The X-Box will only run software that is digitally signed by Microsoft using an encrypted key. If you try to run an application on your X-Box that isn't digitally signed, it simply will not work. Microsoft does this in the console market to attempt to prevent piracy and to prevent people from purchasing an X-Box and using it as an inexpensive x86 computer. The X-Box is in reality a modified Pentium III computer, and theoretically can run normal x86 applications that run on the Pentium computer in your home. In fact, those who have cracked the encrypted copy protection on the X-Box have managed to get Linux running on the system.
Microsoft and Phoenix want to cripple your personal computer so it acts more like the X-Box. Microsoft is calling this "Trustworthy Computing" initiative project Palladium. Salon.com as an excellent quote in an article they wrote regarding the motivations behind this initiative: "Perhaps, if we'll trust computers with our lives, we'll also trust them with our credit cards. And maybe, even more important, Hollywood will trust them with its movies. The Trustworthy Computing initiative is as much about securing intellectual property control as it is about "safety.""
This exposes the two main reasons that your computer is going to be crippled. To appease media companies in Hollywood in a futile attempt to combat piracy, and to protect Microsoft's desktop operating system monopoly. Companies like Microsoft and Phoenix do not state this of course, they are selling this to the public under the guise of a "safer" and "more reliable" computing enviornment. This is only a side effect of the true aims of this initiative.
Piracy of popular media such as software, music and movies is spreading rapidly