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SmoothWall 2.0 Linux-Based Firewall Released

thegraham writes "Despite some earlier server problems, SmoothWall 2.0 has been released this evening - there are also release notes available. SmoothWall is 'a firewall operating system distribution based on Linux, enabling a low-end, possibly otherwise redundant, Intel and compatible PC to become a hardened Internet firewall', and changes from version 1 include: 2.4 kernel, new web interface, improved networking and many bugs corrected through the Beta program."

41 of 351 comments (clear)

  1. I use this one at home by rabbit994 · · Score: 5, Informative

    I've been using the 2.0 Beta at home without any problems. It's makes a great firewall for old boxes and has support for Proxies, DynDNS and everything else you expect in a good firewall. All configured easily from a web based interface. Works great for protecting those Windows boxes too. Think Windows cowering behind a big Tux. Kudos smoothwall team.

    1. Re:I use this one at home by wpanderson · · Score: 2, Informative

      > USE IPCOP ITS A FREE PROJECT

      So is SmoothWall, and always has been.

      --
      neuro at well dot com (when I post, it's my opinions, no-one elses)
    2. Re:I use this one at home by teklob · · Score: 2, Informative

      I've been using it too, but unfortunately it's been crashing sporadically. Sometimes 5 times within an hour, and sometimes it runs for 2-3 days just fine. But it's a hassle to go and reset it each time. The kernel reports nothing leading up to the total lockup.

    3. Re:I use this one at home by wpanderson · · Score: 3, Informative
      Ok, I try not to be negative, but the good folks at ipcop.org are actually friendly and helpful. The main guy at smoothwall is a jerk. Forgive me, I know this sounds like a troll, but the people behind open-source projects affect me opinion of said projects.
      If you're referring to Richard Morrell, and by the reference "main guy" I assume that you are, he left in March, as has been pointed out several times already in these threads.
      --
      neuro at well dot com (when I post, it's my opinions, no-one elses)
  2. Can't wait to try it out. by Tha_Big_Guy23 · · Score: 5, Informative

    I've been using version 1.0 of their firewall for just over a year now, and I have to admit that it is a rather good firewall. I was able to load it on a p100 box with only a 540MB hard drive. Granted with a hard drive that small, my firewall doesn't do alot as far as web cache is concerned, but otherwise it operates great. The patches are easy enough to install, all you have to do is download the gzip from the patches page built into the firewall web client. Upload the gzip's and they're installed.

    Managing the firewall is exceptionally easy as well. You can setup port forwarding to internal computers in under 30 seconds. All-in all the firewall takes the major annoyances out of running a firewall. I highly recommend it for anyone who's got an old system lying around, and doesn't have the time to bother with setting up a firewall.

    --
    If you're looking here for something insightful or thought provoking, you're probably looking in the wrong place.
  3. I tried smoothwall then switched to ipCop by lww · · Score: 5, Informative

    ipCop is a fork of the smoothwall source that has more of an open source community behind it. Personally, I found the whole "Buy Smoothwall Now!" experience just a little too annoying to use.

    But, let me be the first to say that I love the concept behind this type of distro. A boot-cd and 20 minutes turns any old wintel machine into a damn god firewall appliance (one that has a shell!).

    1. Re:I tried smoothwall then switched to ipCop by wpanderson · · Score: 2, Informative

      > Personally, I found the whole "Buy Smoothwall
      > Now!" experience just a little too annoying to use. ... something we try hard not to do these days so as not to alienate folk. Yes, we'd love it if everyone who used the open source version bought the commercial version, but the real world doesn't work that way. That's why a lot of the banners and stuff from 0.9.9 aren't in 1.0 (when fully patched) or 2.0 (out the box).

      --
      neuro at well dot com (when I post, it's my opinions, no-one elses)
  4. Re:OS? by theonlyholle · · Score: 5, Informative

    because it's easy to set up on a bit of spare hardware, however old it may be? Because it provides all that the average firewall user needs? Because it is easy to maintain once it's running? Because most hardware firewalls are as unflexible as they are expensive? I can think of a lot of reasons. In my company, a number of offices use Smoothwall and will certainly upgrade to Smoothwall Express soon, simply because it's an affordable way to secure our network boundaries and because the ongoing maintenance work is minimal.

  5. Re:I use the forked IPCop by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Informative

    IPCop does have a faster upload speed for USB ADSL on BTOpenworld
    (30Kb/s for IPCop, 3Kb/s for Smoothwall GPL). The IPCop team have updated
    the driver, whilst the Smoothwall GPL version does not have the driver
    update. Of course you can pay for the Smoothwall Home version if you want
    the faster upload.

    IPCop uses ext3 journaling filesystem, whilst Smoothwall GPL uses ext2.

    The next version of IPCop, 0.2, will be more of a radical departure from
    Smoothwall. Currently IPCop 0.1.1 is much the same as smoothwall GPL

    Oh and IPCop is GPL and being actively developed, were as Smoothwall GPL is
    backing a back seat to the Home and Corporate versions, i.e. new features
    are being added to the Home/Corporate version and *maybe* back ported to
    Smoothwall GPL.

    neuro said that...' there are cool things in
    the works for GPL, and some of the corporate proprietory stuff may be
    backlicensed to GPL in the future.'

    Richard is pushing for the money right now, not that I blame him. Though
    using Smoothwall GPL means that one was much of a beta tester for the Home
    and Server base versions.

  6. Astaro by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

    That's what a Linux firewall distribution is all about. :)

  7. Re:OS? by cybermace5 · · Score: 3, Informative

    It's a Linux distribution. It's just all set up and locked down for firewall use, with all the features installed that you might want to use.

    Software firewalls are not that great, hardware firewalls are not as easily updated. By using an old box and a firewall distribution, you can set up a firewall and also have a nice local DNS, DHCP, time, file, and so on server for your network.

    This looks a little heavy compared to the FreeSCO floppy distribution I use, but when it's no longer Slashdotted I'll see if it has anything worth reconfiguring my firewall for.

    --
    ...
  8. Re:OS? by Malk-a-mite · · Score: 4, Informative

    Because not all software firewalls are equal and not all hardware firewalls are able to do as much. Those that can do as much (or more) have a price tag that reflects that. Because some people don't like to throw away hardware that could be put to a good use. Because for some people it's just fun.

    A few distros off the top of my head:
    Smoothwall
    Clarkconnect
    IPcop
    Freesco
    C oyotelinux

  9. Google to the rescue by Hal+The+Computer · · Score: 5, Informative
    Cached:
    --

    int main(void){int x=01232;while(malloc(x));return x;}
    1. Re:Google to the rescue by PReDiToR · · Score: 2, Informative

      It installs to about 250MB.

      Noise shouldn't be a problem with old hardware, they only need one fan usually, and someone posted earlier about using a laptop drive for it.
      This is a great firewall, the ease of use factor is out there with anything you can find. I've played harder Commander Keen levels.

      --

      Do not meddle in the affairs of geeks for they are subtle and quick to anger
  10. Re:OS? by muckdog · · Score: 2, Informative

    Hardware firewalls (like checkpoint or your linksys router) are often propritary and/or may be limited in what they can do. Checkpoint firewalls aren't cheap either.

    Software firewalls (like norton on your win2k desktop) may be running on top of a buggy , unsecure piece of crap like windows. Why break the lock when the door is made out of cheese?

  11. Re:OS? by kc8apf · · Score: 2, Informative

    Quite simply, I have things on my wired home network that I don't want anyone on my AP to access. Using a linux box to handle routing and firewalling between the Internet, wired, and wireless networks does something that software firewalls (like ZoneAlarm) can't do and that would cost over $300 for a hardware firewall to do the same.

    If i've already got an old machine laying around from my last upgrade, why waste money on the hardware firewall?

    --
    kc8apf
  12. Here are the release notes. by EinarH · · Score: 4, Informative

    /.'ed

    SmoothWall Express 2.0

    SmoothWall Express 2.0 was released at 21:00 GMT on Monday 8th December 2002.

    http://www.smoothwall.org/

    ** Please see http://smoothwall.org/ for the latest release
    ** information, downloads and updates!

    SmoothWall Express 2.0 Release Notes

    ** Please note that the https web access port has moved from
    ** TCP/445 to TCP/441! Use https://x.x.x.x:441/ from now on!

    Changes from SmoothWall GPL 1.0:

    * SmoothWall GPL is now SmoothWall Express!
    http://community.smoothwall.org/topic/1086

    * Stateful packet inspection using Linux 2.4 kernel with iptables
    and netfilter.

    * Improved installer:

    - Network card skip.
    - Displays MAC address of detected cards.
    - Prefilled IP addresses.
    - Configure upstream web proxy for fetching update list.
    when a direct connection cannot be made or is not allowed.

    * Improved web user interface; more user friendly, better error
    reporting, more orange :)

    * Improved connectivity device support:

    - More USB ADSL modems; ECI chipset, USR SureConnect.
    http://smoothwall.org/beta/eci.html
    - BeWAN PCI ADSL.
    - BT Home Highway USB TA.

    * Universal Plug-n-Play support for Microsoft Windows XP users.

    * Improved network usage graphs with RRDtool.

    * Improved proxy performance through diskd and other squid tweaks.

    * Static assignments in DHCP server options based on MAC address.

    * SmoothWall time sync with internal or external NTP server. Can
    sync from a built-in list of servers. (Does not provide ntpd
    service to Green or Orange network however)

    * Configuration backup to floppy disk for quick install on another
    machine, or re-install on same machine (compatible with backup
    floppies from Express 2.0 RC1, timesync server list bug when
    using backup floppy from Express 2.0 beta7 "pendolino" - see
    http://community.smoothwall.org/topic/2180 for more info)

    * Simpler port forwarding; no need to open ports with external
    access page, the port (or ports - port ranges are allowed now)
    is opened and forwarded on one page.

    * IP Blocking feature; block any given internal IP address or
    subnet from accessing your SmoothWall or any port forwarded
    hosts. Additionally, blocking rules can be added from the
    firewall log interface.

    * Advanced networking features; block ICMP ping, block multicast
    traffic and enable SYN cookies.

    * Improved VPN; no need for "next hop" setting, optionally enable
    compression on the tunnel, still possible to connect to a
    SmoothWall GPL 1.0 VPN.

    * Perform network diagnostic (ping, traceroute) from web interface.

    * New Java SSH client (replaced due to licence conflict).

    * Added clear cache option to web proxy.

    * Updates list location changed
    http://updates.smoothwall.org/express/2.0

    Thanks to those on the team and the forums for their hard work on
    mods and patches :)

    -----
    Rebooting
    -----

    During the reboot, notice the nice boot screens. :)

    You will notice differences if you use either the ECI or the USR
    SureConnect USB ADSL modems.

    For all USR ADSL modems, have the unit plugged in prior to booting.
    If you are using an ECI-chipset driver (generic of FDX310), you will
    see your screen fill with diagnostics as the firmware is uploaded and
    the line synced. Occasionally this can appear to hang part way
    through, but it should not stall for more then 30 seconds at a time.
    The line should be synced when this process is complete.

    The USR SureConnect will behave in a similar fashion, but with less
    diagnostics.

    ---

    --

    Melius mori in libertate quam vivere in servitute.

  13. Developer issues/fork by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

    I believe part of the issue was not with his distribution model, but if anyone has talked with the main developer personally, you would know he has quite an attitude problem. While in the smoothwall IRC room, I would advise not asking any questions unless you donated some money or he will go off on a tangent about how you haven't given anything to him. I believe his name is "Dick" as well. Just a word of advice, I would rather go with Astaro.

    1. Re:Developer issues/fork by throwaway18 · · Score: 2, Informative

      >I believe his name is "Dick" as well.
      Yes, he uses that name. The subject of internet connection sharing came up on my local linux usergroup mailing list. I suggested a cheap NAT router on the grounds of noise (no fans or whirring drives). It's a friendly local discussion list and I was a bit shocked to get a flaming rant from Mr Morell in response.

    2. Re:Developer issues/fork by 91degrees · · Score: 2, Informative

      Well, there's rudeness, and there's rudeness. This is what Richard said to one person concerned about security issues (i.e. storing plain text passwords)

      1) you arent a customer
      2) you're a muppet
      3) I deserve the respect - I earnt it - you don't


      Sure, this is only a sample. It's indicitive of his attitude though. It's not just against people who don't read the manual. He had a lot of hostility towards people who point out security flaws.

      While we're at it, there's no need for his sort of hostility for people who don't read the manual. Simply pointing out that it IS in the manual is sufficient.

  14. Worth a try. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

    It's a really nice product now.

    Once upon a time I wouldn't go near it - one of the original founders was a real rude little shite and a huge liability to the project. And when I say rude, I mean rude - he used to tell potential or even existing customers to fuck off on a fairly regular basis, and that was when he was being polite!

    Only his small circle of friends stayed on the IRC support channel - anyone else got kick-banned without even saying a word (either party).

    Basically he used the wrong license, as in the end he seemed to detest the GPL and the "freeloaders" that were "stealing" copies of "his" work (perhaps he was the inspiration for SCO, huh?)

    Thankfully he fucked off. It a nice project now, supported by nice people! Give it a try.

  15. Re:OS? by tekspot · · Score: 3, Informative

    First of all, because not everyone is talking about home or one workstation application. If you have 100 computers on the network, with smoothwall you will need to configure/reconfigure/update only one dedicated box, instead of all 100 individually.

    Second of all, software firewalls that run on your computer take up resources, and are generally limited by your operating system.

    Finally, smoothwall will be a lot more secure, because it will not be running any of the services that can be compromised by hackers. It adds an additional layer to your security. Remember, security is about layers.

  16. Re:I use the forked IPCop by wpanderson · · Score: 5, Informative
    I'll try and answer this as best I can ...
    IPCop does have a faster upload speed for USB ADSL on BTOpenworld (30Kb/s for IPCop, 3Kb/s for Smoothwall GPL). The IPCop team have updated the driver, whilst the Smoothwall GPL version does not have the driver update. Of course you can pay for the Smoothwall Home version if you want the faster upload.
    This refers to a long-old version of SmoothWall GPL and the Speedtouch driver - both SmoothWall GPL 1.0 and SmoothWall Express 2.0 have no problems with USB ASDL upstream.
    IPCop uses ext3 journaling filesystem, whilst Smoothwall GPL uses ext2.
    SmoothWall Express 2.0 uses ext3.
    The next version of IPCop, 0.2, will be more of a radical departure from Smoothwall. Currently IPCop 0.1.1 is much the same as smoothwall GPL
    This shows how old the parent post is, information wise. IPcop 1.4 alpha/beta still bears a lot of resemblance to SmoothWall GPL 1.0 / Express 2.0.
    Oh and IPCop is GPL and being actively developed, were as Smoothwall GPL is backing a back seat to the Home and Corporate versions, i.e. new features are being added to the Home/Corporate version and *maybe* back ported to Smoothwall GPL.
    Untrue - our commitment to the GPL is a firm as always, and new features are constantly being backported from the commercial products into the open source project.
    neuro said that...' there are cool things in the works for GPL, and some of the corporate proprietory stuff may be backlicensed to GPL in the future.'
    Yes, this has happened.
    Richard is pushing for the money right now, not that I blame him. Though using Smoothwall GPL means that one was much of a beta tester for the Home and Server base versions.
    Possibly true. We do occasionally deploy features into the open source project to see how they pan out - if they work well, we roll them into the commercial products with proper source attribution where required.
    --
    neuro at well dot com (when I post, it's my opinions, no-one elses)
  17. Re:Non-intel by Malk-a-mite · · Score: 3, Informative

    I know you can run YellowDogLinux on the PPC
    http://www.yellowdoglinux.com/

    And do routing with it:
    http://www.yellowdoglinux.com/support/solutio ns/yd l_general/ethernet_connections.shtml

    Not sure if there is a stripped down firewall distro for it yet. If you're up for it you might see what you could put together.

  18. Multi Network Firewall by joestar · · Score: 3, Informative

    There is also MandrakeSoft's Multi Network Firewall which is a very nice firewall + network infrastructure management software that provides many features, including a multi-VPN support. And it's very easy to use.

  19. Re:I used smoothwall for a while by wpanderson · · Score: 5, Informative
    And I highly recommended it for many moons.
    Thanks! :)
    Unfortunately, the developers really annoyed me. One time, they released a patch that added a splash screen to the web interface that popped up EVERY time you changed page. And set chattr+i on the file on the server, then deleted the {ls,ch}attr commands on the server.
    That patch was pulled very quickly after the backlash, and nothing of the sort would ever be contemplated again. Ever.
    Which was just offensive. I went into their [community] IRC channel and mentioned how to fix it, and was kickbanned.
    This sort of offensive behaviour does not happen anymore.
    They make a big thing about being GPL and community-friendly, but in practice I just find them offensive.
    I'm sorry to hear you were mistreated.
    --
    neuro at well dot com (when I post, it's my opinions, no-one elses)
  20. Re:Suggestions for hardware? by Leebert · · Score: 4, Informative
  21. LEAF is very solid by Arkahn · · Score: 3, Informative

    The LEAF distribution of Linux (leaf.sourceforge.net has performed excellently over the years. Various sub-distributions have tackled different things, and I've happily been using Bering at my company for years now. Smoothwall and Bering sound similar: Bering offers a 2.4 kernel, one floppy default running size, easy setup, good documentation, an active and helpful mailing list, and Shorewall for those of who don't want to muck around with iptables scripts. (I'm guilty of using iptables by itself for some time. Shorewall's thorough implementation is sobering to this do-it-yourself-er).

  22. Re:IP Accounting by pturley · · Score: 2, Informative


    www.rocksteady.com
    Our software does most of what you've described here. We dynamically authenticate users and construct/destroy firewall rules as they enter/exit the system.
    </shameless>
    I could go on, but I dislike spamming people with information they haven't asked for. If you'd like to know more, you're very welcome to visit the site.

  23. What do you mean "hardware firewall?" by mindstrm · · Score: 4, Informative

    Like, give me an example?

    Checkpoint? That runs on Linux/ Solaris / NT or whatever....

    Checkpoint Nokia appliance? Just a rack-mount computer, running one of the above operating systems... they are not a "hardware" firewall.

    Every firewall I"ve seen is just a fancy PC dressed up to look like some kind of hardware box.

    Not sure what you mean by "your computer still has to do all the blcoking".. a firewall IS a computer that does blocking, by definition.

    Smoothwall is not some add-on to your existing box.. it's for buildling hardware firewalls....

    1. Re:What do you mean "hardware firewall?" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative
      The Dlink DI-604: a hardware firewall for your pleasure

      No moving parts, not running any of the above operating systems, it's a dedicated hardware firewall. Certainly not a "fancy PC". In fact, even a "no-frills PC" running Smoothwall is pretty bloated compared to this little 5" square by 1" thick baby, which has pretty much all the features you get with a "software firewall" like Smoothwall or whatever, but for just $30 and a hell of a lot less deskspace.

    2. Re:What do you mean "hardware firewall?" by djrogers · · Score: 2, Informative
      Like, give me an example?
      How about this? NetScreen makes purpose built ASIC based Firewall/VPN devices, and has been doing so for years...
      --
      Think outside the... Hey, where'd the friggin' box go?
  24. Mirror of ISO image by baximus · · Score: 3, Informative

    PlanetMirror's got this now:
    HTTP | FTP.

  25. Astaro Much Better by All+Dat · · Score: 4, Informative

    Personally, I've used Astaro Security Linux for a long time since moving from Smoothwall, and I find it far superior.

    It's of course free for home use, runs on anything down to a P100, and all the up2date is handled by Astaro themselves.

    Hell, they even have FREE evaluation webinar-live-workshops for people to get acquainted with Astaro if they are new (and presumeably to help with a purchasing decision for business) You can signup for the Eval Workshop for free here.

    When they release their version 5, I hope it gets the same kind of publicity, they are hands down the coolest internet firewall and don't seem to get much press.

    --


    3-Server OC-3 Linux Counter-Strike Cluster
    www.rnp.ca
  26. Smoothwall kicks ass. by pair-a-noyd · · Score: 5, Informative

    I've been using Smoothwall 2.0 beta X for over a year now and I've had very few problems.

    The most recent I'm using is Pendolino and it's great.

    I have installed several customer sites with Beta5 (after extensive testing at my site) and they are all very pleased with it.

    I highly recomend it. You can take an old PC and load it up and really be covered.
    It's very easy to use, very reliable, very flexible.

    What's even better is that you can use the built in,
    transparent proxy (squid) to block ads. (sorry /., your ads too)..

    I made a dull gray "this ad zapped" gif and put it in /home/httpd/zaps and edited the wrapzap file to tell adzapper to look on smoothwall ofr it's images rather than using the resources of sourceforge. I found that the black and yellow gif was more annoying than the ads it was blocking.

    Man, it's great. EVERY machine that I plug into my lan automatically gets it's ads zapped. Friends and customers are freaked out and impressed with that. Then after seeing how cool it is they want a smoothwall too. Problem is I end up setting them all up for free.. ;-/

    Smoothwall is very cool, get it....

  27. Re:I used smoothwall for a while by Cloud+K · · Score: 3, Informative

    He seems to be working on "new projects" (solo by the sound of it) going by his slightly ranty website at dickmorrell.com

    I'll be sure to avoid them!

    Note he makes a point on the site of pointing out his remaining ownership of the Smoothwall copyright despite the fact that he resigned. What that means I don't know, but it smells very SCO-ish. He's an asshole of similar caliber to those guys.

  28. Re:Suggestions for hardware? by jojo80 · · Score: 2, Informative

    Have a look at the Via Epia boards. The slower processors don't need a fan. Also, some boards don't need a power supply, but use a small plug to get their power - laptop like.
    You could use a usb stick as your hard drive.

  29. My though on the type of distros by bogie · · Score: 4, Informative

    I think these are Awesome for small businesses and technically advanced home users but really not too great for the average home user. I think they will be better served with something like a low end SMC router. It's cheaper,smaller, costs less to run, and even compared to the easiest of these distros tends to be easier to setup. Usually you just plug it in and go. No need to open up a PC to install extra NICS and no need to worry about a powersupply going. I used to run a PC for a firewall, but really with the features you get on these cheap routers I'm more than happy. Hell the low end SMC7004VBR has an SPI firewall, VPN, Virtual Servers, and Access Control. All for under $40! You may have more fine grained control on something like Smoothwall, but for who don't need it it's really no contest on which product is a better fit.

    I guess most of what I said is common sense, and I'm sure those in the market for a PC based firewall have thought about it as well. I just thought I'd post in case you needed to be pushed one way or another.

    --
    If you wanna get rich, you know that payback is a bitch
  30. Re:Non-intel by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

    Does it have SBus or PCI expansion slots?

    If SBus, you won't run any modern Linux kernel on it. Maybe NetBSD would be better in that situation.

    But, if it's got 2 Ethernet ports (or can be expanded easily (and CHEAPLY)). It can be done.

  31. Firewall on a floppy, anyone? by thirty2bit · · Score: 2, Informative

    Nobody mentioned the Floppy Firewall yet? It can be found at http://www.zelow.no/floppyfw/

    One single floppy. It can be write protected to prevent rooting. No hard drive needed, so a quiet junk PC can be easily used.

  32. Re:I used smoothwall for a while by wpanderson · · Score: 2, Informative

    I had to laugh when I read this:

    it was weird to find out from the horses mouth that there are now more than 23 times the number of downloads for IPCop than there are for SW GPL (both versions), that there are on average 15,000 more visitors per day to the download pages for IPCop than SmoothWall
    The reason there aren't click-thrus from the SmoothWall project page on sourceforge is because we don't use those links or that page to generate downloads. The bulk of our downloads come from our download page (at the moment suitably lightened in weight to combat the /. effect), whereas that other firewall distribution uses their Sourceforge project download page (or 'Files' page) almost exclusively to host downloads. This is why that other distribution appears to get hundreds and thousands of downloads, while SmoothWall appears to get a mere handful through Sourceforge. The ~ seven million hits and 300-400 gig of bandwidth we chew through every month (with half a million hits and 250 gig of those being hits to download.smoothwall.org), coupled with the fact we use other mirrors in addition to sourceforge to host our files, suggest to me that using sourceforge to gauge our overall popularity and download counts is a flawed strategy at best.

    and that for every four visitors to SmoothWall, three then click through to IPCop and download 1.3.0.
    How can someone "click through" to another project site directly when there's no direct link between them? Incidentally, from what I can tell, the huge number of hits to that other distribution's sourceforge stats is due to their inclusion of the sourceforge stats-collector logo in their web interface, thus generating thousands more hits for their project while people administer their firewalls. Cute, huh?

    As for the final comment, if this were the case, how could any commercial security vendor survive? There will always be a market for boxed product, while the degrees of openness within such product will invariably differ from product to product, market to market, and over time.

    --
    neuro at well dot com (when I post, it's my opinions, no-one elses)