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TiVo Goes After Sites Hosting Image Backups
TiVo User writes "TiVo has apparently decided to come down on sites that hosted 'image backups,' essentially tarballs of the OS for the machine, which just happens to be Linux. TiVo owners use the images to install on new, larger hard drives (increasing the recording capacity of the unit) or to recover a dead system. Why TiVo has a problem with this, but allows others to sell the same images for profit is beyond me." Read on for the rest of TiVo User's comments.
"The images are not used to create pirate TiVos (as a subscription service, TiVo justifiably controls access to their database tightly), so there wouldn't appear to be much harm in allowing them to be hosted. TiVo has always walked a fine line in allowing the user community to mod their units, perhaps they have finally stepped over that line, considering there are free alternatives that are less restrictive. To their credit, the legal mumbo jumbo in their cease letter is non-threatening compared to most other of this type, but it's interesting the letter draws no distinction between the portions of the software that are Linux, and therefore expressly distributable, and those that are proprietary to TiVo."
There are plenty of free choices now, and they are geting better every day, seems like a bad time for Tivo to start upsetting their biggest fans.
Probably not if they didn't alter the GPL'd components of the system.
If they are allowing other sites to sell their images for a profit, presumably they are getting royalties, and would therefore want to encourage the growth of this market by stopping people doing it for free. Follow the money...
If I seem short sighted, it is because I stand on the shoulders of midgets
1. If Tivo has commercially-sensitive proprietary kernel modules, they are not obliged to distribute them, and AFAIK, the Tivo filesystem code falls into this category
:-) If I can do it, a lot of others can too...
2. They're bound to get a lot of people jumping on them "you must distribute", etc. See (1).
3. They're walking a fine line. I'm setting up a Mini-ITX/Hauppage 350 PVR with MythTV as a front-end. It looks cool, and it'll have a lot more features (like: burn a DVD as well as the normal PVR stuff
Simon
Physicists get Hadrons!
Tivo's business model is upsetting everyone. Advertisers get commercials skipped, shows are getting ripped and download from the web... it doesn't surprise me that they're trying to keep their "source code" in house.
If it wasn't for someone having their image of the OS out there, I wouldn't have been able to fix my Tivo Series 2 that's less that one year old!
I know this is slightly offtopic, but what hardware is required for the free alternatives (MythTV/Freevo) to work smoothly?
Will a 1GHz VIA MiniITX board be able to do simultaneous encoding/playback (timeshifting) in MPEG2 or is an Athlon XP 1800+ necessary?
What hardware do YOU use?
If the code that does all the work is in userland then all they are required to do is allow people to get at the kernel source, they don't have to release anything that runs on top of the kernel as a normal process.
But if they've added drivers for TiVo specific hardware (don't know if there is any, don't have a TiVo) then it's down to the old binary modules argument, and if they've modified the kernel in any way then they need to release those modifications.
They actually do give out the source code, it's been available since day one; just mosey on over to their website and look for yourself.
What, you mean like this source code?
Anyhow, I don't see how distribution of images is related to the GPL. The GPL doesn't require that TiVo provide binary versions of its software. Furthermore, just because TiVos are Linux-based, who says all of the software on a TiVo box is GPL'd? Surely they have their own proprietary programs on there that don't use GPL'd code, and those programs would not allowed to be distributed in TiVo disk images.
Opening the box, extracting the images, installing the images... all illegal under the DMCA.
Is it fair? No.
But it's the law -- an asinine and relatively untested law -- but the law nevertheless.
Get used to it. Your property is no longer your property. You merely own the license for its use.
How is this different to somebody hosting Windows ISOs? If there is software that is copyrighted by Tivo inside the images and they haven't given the people distributing them license to do so, then they are well within their rights to stop the distribution.
No. They are required to supply the source to all the GPLed software that they are distributing, and any of their own software which is linked against GPLed software (which is also therefore GPL). However, they are not required to allow people to view/distribute any proprietary code which doesn't fall into these categories. Since the OS images contain both GPLed and proprietary software, they are within their rights to prevent distribution. They are however required to provided the source of the GPLed stuff on the image seperately, on request, but this is probably not very interesting anyway
If I seem short sighted, it is because I stand on the shoulders of midgets
Maybe it is time for some of the Tivo faithful to move over to ReplayTV. I wouldn't give mine up. Tivo may be better of the average consumer but if for a geek, I think ReplayTV is the way to go.
The Tools Of Ignorance wanna be a tool?
TiVo already offers GPL-based code on their website. The backup images being offered on other websites include the full OS and TiVo GUI, which aren't covered under GPL. So technically they have the right to shut these sites down, although, as mentioned, I think it's a shame as it could shut down the TiVo upgrade/white-hack community.
Link to Tivo Linux source code
I don't know why you would link directly to sourceforge project page for Freevo when they have a much nicer homepage, including screenshots, at http://freevo.sourceforge.net/
TiVo themselves have already posted their kernel modifications on the web site. They're Good Guys, usually. They have no obligation to let the rest of their code be tossed around the internet.
I suspect their concern is that someone will figure out how to hack their way into their servers or steal DirecTV service or eventually manage to run the whole image on "stock" hardware.
Much better for them to nip this copyright violation now than to try to stop it in a year or two when they'll annoy even more people. It may be harder for people to fix "hacked" TiVo's, but you take your own chances when you break that warranty seal...
They aren't - the GPL doesn't specify how the code must be made available. They simply have to make the source available somehow, and are entitled to charge the cost of providing it. I imagine pointing to a mirror would be sufficient, at least in practice, if not in theory. The point is to make sure that any changes they make are also distributed to anyone who wants them.
If I seem short sighted, it is because I stand on the shoulders of midgets
For those GPL whiners. It took a whole 30 seconds to find this:
http://www.tivo.com/linux/index.html
The email from TiVo itself:
Your website (ftp.abs.net) has recently come to our attention. We appreciate your enthusiasm for the TiVo(R) DVR and we have some specific requests regarding your website.
We request that you cease hosting backup images of TiVo's proprietary software. The software represents valuable intellectual property of TiVo's, and making it available for copying and distribution is a violation of TiVo's copyrights. Such use is without our consent and is illegal under US federal copyright law. In particular, we are requesting that all of the files and directories located at ftp://ftp.abs.net/tivo/Backups/ be removed.
If they are correct in their statements, then this does indeed suggest that there is some proprietary code in addition to the GPL'd kernel in there. I suppose the best thing to do here is verify what can be distributed (under the GPL) and what can't, from the TiVo package.. (But I don't own a TiVo, so that may not be possible)
I follow the Tivo discusson forums, and there is one good reason Tivo may not want these images distributed.
The images for different Tivos are slightly different - a Phillips unit is not quite the same as a Sony, a DTivo is different than a stand alone Tivo, and of course Series II Tivos are MIPS rather than PPC based.
The common use case for these images goes something like this:
Joe L. Usr tries to upgrade his system. He, of course, does not back up his system. He adds a drive and botches the process.
Joe figgrs he will just download a new image and "fix" his system. So he pulls down the first image he can find, and BAM! his Tivo is now not merely broken, but toast.
Now, the upgrade sites actually require you to tell them what hardware you have, and thus (one hopes) can insure you get the correct image.
So Tivo MAY want to prevent folks from moron-izing their systems, but not have a problem with folks that don't have a history of doing so.
www.eFax.com are spammers
I have sent back 3 TiVo's...
Try this -- you need a standard computer, and a couple of TV cards.
You obviously know nothing about Tivo for someone who has a series 2. There is no official Tivo commercial skip, just a widely known easter egg to enable a 30 second skip. That's quite different from a real commercial skip feature. Also, Tivo discourages shows getting ripped and downloaded from the web and I'm not really sure how one would accomplish this easily anyway though I haven't really looked much into modding besides adding capacity.
So, a link the the mirror is only acceptable if you're re-distirbuting binaries without modification, and then only if you're doing it non-commercially.
I remember way back in the day, when Tivo hacking was overly encouraged by the company, the president of Tivo posted on the boards pissed off that people were imaging. Evidently, several people had imaged a Philips image on a Sony system or vice-versa, and it was screwing up the company's update system. That may be why they're cracking down on the sites.
Then I come here and read stuff like "Since they use linux, they're required to send an engineer over to my house to explain how their data structures work." Great! Some microsoft exec is already planning a happy hour for their marketing group. Maybe you'll get invited.
Because not everyone is getting software from the Internet. When the GPL was written, the Internet as we know it today didn't even exist.
The clause still makes sense in the Internet world though. Suppose I include a link to a third party site to get GPL code I distribute. They go out of business or change their domain name, or even take down the version I used because it became obselete. I'm now in violation of the GPL.
I've had enough abrasive sigs. Kittens are cute and fuzzy.
First off, the DirecTivos probably have the worst QC of any DVR on the market and I found myself shipping my first DT off and waiting *are you ready for this* 4 months for a replacement. The fan decided to stop and burned out the card reader.
A few months later the HD broke. So I pulled it out and got the linux-based rescue CD-image from someone at the excellent tivocommunity forums. Luckily that old drive had a little life left in her and I managed to do a DD copy onto a new 80 gig drive.
What Tivo should be doing is producing better products and stop punishing us who are trying to fix the junk they sold us. Making money off of a fauly product is ridiculous and those with the skills to be able to fix these things deserve access to the images.
If Tivo thinks I'm going to waste another 4 months on warranty service or pay for a damn OS image that should be mostly OSS they've got another thing coming.
Tivo, I'm afraid (because I truly love their product) will be non-existant once the Comcast and Dishnetwork DVRs start coming free with the service. You can take at look at them at gizmodo. If Tivo wants to compete they need to kiss more customer ass, not spit on existing customers with lemons.
and they do provide it. It's at http://www.tivo.com/linux/index.html.
-- "Freedom is the right of all sentient beings" -Optimus Prime
They aren't - the GPL doesn't specify how the code must be made available. They simply have to make the source available somehow, and are entitled to charge the cost of providing it.
The GPL DOES specify how the code must be made available, either by using a or b:
a) Accompany it with the complete corresponding machine-readable source code, which must be distributed under the terms of Sections 1 and 2 above on a medium customarily used for software interchange; or,
b) Accompany it with a written offer, valid for at least three years, to give any third party, for a charge no more than your cost of physically performing source distribution, a complete machine-readable copy of the corresponding source code, to be distributed under the terms of Sections 1 and 2 above on a medium customarily used for software interchange; or,
Someone figured out if you restored image from a standalone Series 2 to a HD for a DirecTivo, you could get the full range of Tivo Series 2 functionality (USB Networking, etc.). The 'second generation' DirecTivos do not have a number of features that the standalone Series 2 Tivos have (DirecTV has chosen not to enable them).
It also caused problems with DirecTV's over-the-phone software update, as every night the machine would attempt to get new software but fail after applying the patch, tying up lines for several hours.
That's more or less exactly how these images were made. Early on, images were made using dd. Nowadays, people make images using a special program called "mfstool" which is capable of backing only the necessary parts of the Tivo drive, reducing the size of the created image. So all the sites recommend making your *own* image. But sites like abs.net existed as a just in case type of mechanism. If your system failed, and you never made a backup, here was a solution.
It was well known (or should have been) that distributing these was illegal, and this was in fact why I didn't allow posting links to these sites on the Tivo Community forums, back when I was running the Underground forum there. But they were well known nonetheless, and I myself sent links to abs.net to users in need.
Tivo is well within their rights to not have these images distributed, but it's a pretty sad thing that they now feel the need to exert those rights. I guess it's finally happened and Tivo is no longer "hacker" friendly. Oh well. It was a joyous time while it lasted, I guess.
- Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day, but set him on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life.
I suspect their concern is that someone will figure out how to hack their way into their servers
Already done, but easily detected on their end, more or less.
or steal DirecTV service
Also already done, and not easily detectable either. But it's no easier than stealing DTV on any other DTV box.
or eventually manage to run the whole image on "stock" hardware.
Not bloody likely, and considering that this particular site has been in operation *at least* three years to my explicit knowledge, nobody is really interested.
I know a lot about Tivo and the hacking community and such, and I'm at a loss to satisfactorily explain why Tivo would do this. I suspect a Tivo lawyer found out about it. Most of the Tivo engineering people have no real issue with this sort of thing.
Tivo is well within their rights here, but to my absolute and certain knowledge, several key people at Tivo have known about ftp.abs.net for at least 2 years. I'm just not sure why this is happening now.
- Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day, but set him on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life.
What do you mean by "recognized"? It is a license, which is essentially a contract. IANAL, but I do know that all licenses/contracts that do not explicitly violate laws and are by definition legal, hence "recognized" by law.
Now it hasn't been tested in court. It's possible that it violates some provision of contract law, which differ by country, but I've never heard anybody ever suggest any violation of law in the GPL, other than SCO's hallucinogenic diatribe about it being unconsititution, which doesn't pass the laugh test.
But AFAIK, my licenses to use just about any software on my computer (MS Windows, Office, Matlab, CorelDraw, etc.) have not been tested in court either. That doesn't make them "pipedreams". There really is no such thing as "recognized by law", only valid or invalid licenses & contracts, and you need an explicit violation to be invalid.
But if they've added drivers for TiVo specific hardware (don't know if there is any, don't have a TiVo) then it's down to the old binary modules argument, and if they've modified the kernel in any way then they need to release those modifications.
There is and they have. http://www.tivo.com/linux
The objection to distribution of images is that image necessarily contain their proprietary userland code, which is decidely not GPL.
- Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day, but set him on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life.
If I remember correctly from my Business Law courses, it doesn't matter if the warranty has expired. They never fixed the problem satisfactorily and therefore are still legally obligated to send you a working product.
Now once you have a working TiVo, they may be able to say to hell with you, but until then they are still bound by the original warranty, no matter how much time has passed.
I haven't seen TiVo's userland code, but I expect it's tightly tied to their own libs and module code.
/dev device interfaces which any program can use, type of thing. It's a pretty good layer of separation, in other words.
You'd probably be wrong there. I haven't seen the actual userland code either, but I have messed about on the Tivo extensively, and it's not "tightly" tied by any means. They do have modules for the hardware which they have released, I think, but these provide more or less normal interfaces to it for the most part, and there's little need to compile their headers and such into the userland code and so forth. The kernel modules mostly just provide
- Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day, but set him on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life.
Why do people insist on posting comments on things they know nothing about?
Tivo's KERNEL is GPL, and SOME of tivo's userland is GPL, and tivo has always released the code for their modifications to GPL software they used. But tivos also have proprietary software on them, that is not based on GPL code, and is not released under the GPL, and they have every right to control distribution of it. Just because the GPL binaries and the proprietary binaries are on the same hard drive doesn't give someone the right to image the drive and distribute the proprietary binaries.
I don't understand how people can bash someone for controlling distribution of their own work, and still support the GPL at the same time. The GPL is all about controlling distribution of your work.
Why TiVo has a problem with this, but allows others to sell the same images for profit is beyond me." That one's obvious, because the "for-pay" images channel parts of the profit back to TiVo somehow, either through advertising, or commission on sales, etc...
"A buyer of this product in California has the right to have this product serviced and repaired during the warranty period. The warranty period will be extended for the number of whole days that the product has been out of the buyer's hands for warranty repairs. If a defect exists during the warranty period, the warranty will not expire until the defect has been fixed. The warranty period also will be extended if the warranty repairs has not been performed due to delays caused by circumstances beyond the control of the buyer, or if the warranty repairs did not remedy the defect and the buyer notifies the manufacturer or seller of the failure of the repairs within sixty (60) days after they were completed. If after a reasonable number of attempts, the defect has not bee fixed, the buyer may return this product for a replacement or a refund subject, in either case, to deduction of a reasonable charge for use. The time extension does not affect the protection or remedies the buyer has under other laws.
If skipping commercials was a problem, then advertisers would have been bitching since the dawn of the VCR. Tivo doesn't make it any easier to fast forward through a commercial.
All advertisers need to do is make their commercials interesting and relevant. I hardly ever skip the commercials during Adult Swim because they're so fun to watch.
Bill Clinton: Pimp we can believe in. - The Shirt!!!
The "choices" are all shit. No, really. Compared to a Tivo, they are expensive *and* crap. Basically you need a PC to dedicate to the task, that alone is more expensive than a Tivo and then you need to fuck about with it for days to get it half as functional as a lobotomised Tivo.
The software in the Tivo images contains Tivo's code. Taking that code and distributing it without permission is very simply and plainly copyright infringement. You just shouldn't do it. By all means take a backup, but the code is not yours to give away.
Tivo do comply with the GPL, (http://www.tivo.com/linux/) so if you want the GPL'd code, go get it.
Government of the people, by corporate executives, for corporate profits.
Because they're in the midst of releasing updates to the OS to work with Apple's AAC format with Home Media Option. I bet there's some code that Apple doesn't want to share (I don't blame them). Apple probably told them to stop allowing image downloads if they're going to get on the AAC front.
Just my $0.02.
"Electric Relaxation" - ATCQ
- Bwana
I think you'll find that Tivo do in fact comply with the GPL but ironically, those distributing the binary disk images *do not* comply with the GPL. If the FSF were to go after anyone, it would be those providing the binary only backup images...
Government of the people, by corporate executives, for corporate profits.
From some of the posts online, you'd think some people have no idea how the law works and/or how a Tivo works.
Tivos) The images for series1 and series 2 tivos are essentially the same, allowing for differences in the hardware. The capabilities each Tivo has is dependant on what they are "allowed" for. Ie, home media option and such is enabled when the Tivo connects to the server and determines that it should be enabled.
Along that note, the things which a downloader of a Tivo image would be potentially "stealing":
The GPL states that if you modify the kernel itself and distribute it, you will need to distribute the modified source code as well. Tivo HAS done this. They have placed the GPL related portions along with their own direct modifications to the kernel for download on their web site.
Kernel modules and other object linked source code is still being hotly debated, for better or for worse. The stance most companies take is to distribute binary modules.
The application which runs on top of Linux, however, is NOT gpl'd. Nor are all of the other control mechanisms which Tivo has written. Nor are the images and other creative works put into the Tivo system.
By offering an image of the drive for download, that Tivo user is offering both GPL'd(which is ok) and Copyrighted(which is not okay) works. And since just backing up the GPL portions of the Tivo system will not restore the system, the image that user is offering is in violation of Copyright laws and Tivo has the right to and needs to tell them to stop.
Just because you use a GPL base for an OS does NOT make your application GPL as well. Graphical libraries are another matter and hence the LGPL, the BSD license, and a few others.
People need to understand that it isn't about being against GPL. It is about protected the portion which ISN'T GPL. And people aren't seeing that distinction when they should.
I've been a user of a Series2 Tivo for 2 years now and love it. One of the first appliances I bought when I moved into my current place. I upgraded mine and have had no problems with it. Though I'm thinking I'll be doing some routine maintenance myself to make sure the drives are okay, but otherwise, I have no complaints about image quality or any other problem with the system. (Except maybe the USB1.1 port which limits me to 11mbps when I really want 100mbps... :)
Tivo has been a great company and has always been courteous when I had problems or questions of them. They see something wrong happening and they are doing what needs to be done to rectify the problem.
They should not be dinged when they try to protect something legitimately, unlike another company which comes to mind.
Winged Power Photography