TiVo Goes After Sites Hosting Image Backups

TiVo User writes "TiVo has apparently decided to come down on sites that hosted 'image backups,' essentially tarballs of the OS for the machine, which just happens to be Linux. TiVo owners use the images to install on new, larger hard drives (increasing the recording capacity of the unit) or to recover a dead system. Why TiVo has a problem with this, but allows others to sell the same images for profit is beyond me." Read on for the rest of TiVo User's comments. "The images are not used to create pirate TiVos (as a subscription service, TiVo justifiably controls access to their database tightly), so there wouldn't appear to be much harm in allowing them to be hosted. TiVo has always walked a fine line in allowing the user community to mod their units, perhaps they have finally stepped over that line, considering there are free alternatives that are less restrictive. To their credit, the legal mumbo jumbo in their cease letter is non-threatening compared to most other of this type, but it's interesting the letter draws no distinction between the portions of the software that are Linux, and therefore expressly distributable, and those that are proprietary to TiVo."

Comments

Hmm

[Anonymous Coward]

Isn't that illegal given the GPL?

Re:Hmm

[dreamchaser]

Probably not if they didn't alter the GPL'd components of the system.

Re:Hmm

[AllUsernamesAreGone]

If the code that does all the work is in userland then all they are required to do is allow people to get at the kernel source, they don't have to release anything that runs on top of the kernel as a normal process.

But if they've added drivers for TiVo specific hardware (don't know if there is any, don't have a TiVo) then it's down to the old binary modules argument, and if they've modified the kernel in any way then they need to release those modifications.

Re:Hmm

[kinnell]

No. They are required to supply the source to all the GPLed software that they are distributing, and any of their own software which is linked against GPLed software (which is also therefore GPL). However, they are not required to allow people to view/distribute any proprietary code which doesn't fall into these categories. Since the OS images contain both GPLed and proprietary software, they are within their rights to prevent distribution. They are however required to provided the source of the GPLed stuff on the image seperately, on request, but this is probably not very interesting anyway

Re:Hmm

[Yoje]

TiVo already offers GPL-based code on their website. The backup images being offered on other websites include the full OS and TiVo GUI, which aren't covered under GPL. So technically they have the right to shut these sites down, although, as mentioned, I think it's a shame as it could shut down the TiVo upgrade/white-hack community.

Re:Hmm

[kinnell]

why should they be required to provide a mirror of it?

They aren't - the GPL doesn't specify how the code must be made available. They simply have to make the source available somehow, and are entitled to charge the cost of providing it. I imagine pointing to a mirror would be sufficient, at least in practice, if not in theory. The point is to make sure that any changes they make are also distributed to anyone who wants them.

Re:Hmm

[arkanes]

I, personally, would consider a link to the original source to be sufficent, but heres what the GPL has to say:

c) Accompany it with the information you received as to the offer to distribute corresponding source code. (This alternative is allowed only for noncommercial distribution and only if you received the program in object code or executable form with such an offer, in accord with Subsection b above.)

So, a link the the mirror is only acceptable if you're re-distirbuting binaries without modification, and then only if you're doing it non-commercially.

Re:Hmm

[GigsVT]

Because not everyone is getting software from the Internet. When the GPL was written, the Internet as we know it today didn't even exist.

The clause still makes sense in the Internet world though. Suppose I include a link to a third party site to get GPL code I distribute. They go out of business or change their domain name, or even take down the version I used because it became obselete. I'm now in violation of the GPL.

Re:Hmm

[jtdennis]

and they do provide it. It's at http://www.tivo.com/linux/index.html.

Re:Hmm

[Cee]

They aren't - the GPL doesn't specify how the code must be made available. They simply have to make the source available somehow, and are entitled to charge the cost of providing it.

The GPL DOES specify how the code must be made available, either by using a or b:

a) Accompany it with the complete corresponding machine-readable source code, which must be distributed under the terms of Sections 1 and 2 above on a medium customarily used for software interchange; or,

b) Accompany it with a written offer, valid for at least three years, to give any third party, for a charge no more than your cost of physically performing source distribution, a complete machine-readable copy of the corresponding source code, to be distributed under the terms of Sections 1 and 2 above on a medium customarily used for software interchange; or,

Re:Hmm

[Ian Wolf]

My understanding is you are not in violation until the consumer requests the source and you fail to comply. As someone mentioned earlier, you don't have to distribute the source immediately, but must comply when so requested.

Re:Hmm

[Colonel Cholling]

Of course not! The GPL is unconstitutional, un-American communist propaganda which is not legally binding in any civilized country. Besides, we own all the TiVos. It's our intellectual property. They should be paying us.
</darl>

It's just nuts and bolts, and software

[Anonymous Coward]

There are plenty of free choices now, and they are geting better every day, seems like a bad time for Tivo to start upsetting their biggest fans.

Re:It's just nuts and bolts, and software

[Ed Avis]

But what free choices are there if you already own a Tivo box? Do any of the free PVR applications run well on the Tivo hardware?

Re:It's just nuts and bolts, and software

[slim]

Do any of the free PVR applications run well on the Tivo hardware?

I'm sure this used to be on the Freevo roadmap, but it seems to have disappeared.

Re:It's just nuts and bolts, and software

[Eponymous, Showered]

Unfortunately for the free PVR software packages, there is no free guide data. xmltv can be (and is widely) used, but it typically grabs data by scraping from zap2it, where there the TOS explicitly forbids this ("you may not modify, copy, frame, cache, reproduce, sell, publish, transmit, display or otherwise use any portion of the Content"). If Freevo or MythTV got large enough to show up on Tribune Media Services' (the owner of zap2it) radar, they'd be squashed like bugs.

Too bad no one offers a subscription-based xmltv feed.

Re:It's just nuts and bolts, and software

[geoffspear]

Zap2It's TOS are unenforceable in the US (at the moment). The Supreme Court has ruled that information found in databases of facts (and TV airtimes are facts) is not protected by copyright.

TiVo

[Anonymous Coward]

This practice does not surprise me. About 4 months ago, I purchased a TiVo refurb for $200. In those 4 months, I have sent back 3 TiVo's. My fourth recently went bad (the screen gets all pixelated). Unfortunately, the 3 month warranty only counts for 3 months from when the TiVo was first purchased! Never mind that for the duration of the warranty period they never managed to send me a working product!

TiVo is a company with no scruples, this practice does not surprise me in the least.

Re:TiVo

[Can]

TiVo does not actually sell receivers. They license the software and hardware designs. Your issue was more likely with Philips, Sony, Hughes, or some other hardware manufacturer.

TiVo themselves actually have a very good reputation for customer service (if you bought a standalone TiVo and purchased service directly rather than through DirecTV, of course).

Re:TiVo

[Anonymous Coward]

TiVo's website sells refurbished receivers.

Re:TiVo

[gnu-generation-one]

I have sent back 3 TiVo's...

Try this -- you need a standard computer, and a couple of TV cards.

Re:TiVo

[InsaneGeek]

Can't say I've heard of that, best thing that I can think of is that it's possibly overheating. I've got a series 1 so I'm not exactly sure how your fan is configured (mine is basically a computer cpu fan in the back of it). Something to try would be to take the case off and put a fan on it (ambient air would not be enough to cool it properly).

You'd probably get the best luck at the community forums over at http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/ they've heard just about anything and everything.

Re:TiVo

[snkline]

If I remember correctly from my Business Law courses, it doesn't matter if the warranty has expired. They never fixed the problem satisfactorily and therefore are still legally obligated to send you a working product.

Now once you have a working TiVo, they may be able to say to hell with you, but until then they are still bound by the original warranty, no matter how much time has passed.

Re:TiVo

[Isca]

This is NOT CORRECT. Tivo does, in fact, make their own brand of DVR's. In fact, Best Buy and Circuit City sell Tivo branded systems.

Now, they may be made by some third party company. I'm sure this is the case, but it doesn't really matter. If you buy a Dell Axim, does that mean you go blame it on the Taiwanese manufacturer that made it? You could, but it won't get you anywhere. YOu need to go to Dell and complain about it. Just because they don't put it together doesn't mean it's not their product.

If the user bought a "Refurbished Tivo", he probably got it directly from Tivo. Every few months they put "remanufactured Tivos" on sale. Tivo's customer service reputation has taken a big hit lately, from the nature of the posts on the Tivo forums. Luckily, I haven't had any first hand experience with it, but I've seen/heard plenty of those who have had trouble just as the poster above had.

-chris

Re:TiVo

[carlos_benj]

Interesting. I would think that someone who doesn't have the time/skills/desire to put something together and only wants somethig that works out of the box would be the spoiled one...

Re:TiVo

[jaredmauch]

If you're in California, this is not the case.

"A buyer of this product in California has the right to have this product serviced and repaired during the warranty period. The warranty period will be extended for the number of whole days that the product has been out of the buyer's hands for warranty repairs. If a defect exists during the warranty period, the warranty will not expire until the defect has been fixed. The warranty period also will be extended if the warranty repairs has not been performed due to delays caused by circumstances beyond the control of the buyer, or if the warranty repairs did not remedy the defect and the buyer notifies the manufacturer or seller of the failure of the repairs within sixty (60) days after they were completed. If after a reasonable number of attempts, the defect has not bee fixed, the buyer may return this product for a replacement or a refund subject, in either case, to deduction of a reasonable charge for use. The time extension does not affect the protection or remedies the buyer has under other laws.

Re:TiVo

[shaitand]

Not true, users of open source (whether out of the box or homebrew setup) are definately the spoiled ones ;)

Why on earth would anybody want to waste their time trying to get a proprietary anything to work the way they want just to discover it doesn't it isn't flexible enough and "settle" for what it can do?

Even if I have to tinker with it, 9999 of 10000 times I can be confident that there IS a way to accomplish what I'd like to do with open source and thus I never settle.

Here's a clue

[kinnell]

Why TiVo has a problem with this, but allows others to sell the same images for profit is beyond me

If they are allowing other sites to sell their images for a profit, presumably they are getting royalties, and would therefore want to encourage the growth of this market by stopping people doing it for free. Follow the money...

Re:Here's a clue

[NMerriam]

No, that is only for trademarks.

Copyright, like patents, are ironclad for their term, no matter what you do (or don' do).

Re:Here's a clue

[cpt kangarooski]

if you don't actively defend a tradmark it gets deluded

Man, that's hilarious.

The word you were looking for, however, is 'diluted.' And that's not really the result of failing to actively defend a mark.

A mark must inform consumers as to the source of goods or services. E.g. everything with 'Slurm' on it must be coming from the same basic source, regardless of what (or who) that source is. If it doesn't, THEN there's no mark at all.

Infringement is basically when someone else uses your mark on his own goods, therefore causing customer confusion as to whether he or you is the source of marked goods.

Dilution is only available for very famous marks, basically so that people can't make 'Slurm' brand internal combustion engines (which no one would confuse with Slurm, the beverage, so couldn't be infringing) in an attempt to somehow profit off of the great effort Slurm has made in making its name known. You don't lose your mark if it's been diluted, however.

In the case of copyright there is no such provisions which is how thing like the .gif and (potentially) the SCO debacle can happen years after the (supposed) infringements

There sort of are.

Three year statute of limitations on civil copyright actions. If you don't act on a SPECIFIC infringement fast enough, you'll never get to at all.

More recent infringements of course might still be within the time limit. And some jurisdictions might have a discovery rule such that the clock doesn't start running until the copyright holder knew or reasonably should have known, about the infringement.

Also the thing with LZW compression and GIFs had to do with a patent -- not a copyright.

A question

[Scholasticus]

Since parts of Tivo/Linux are freely redistributable under the GPL, does Tivo the company have the right to order all of these images taken down? In other words, are they legally required to say, "You have to take this part down" (their proprietary stuff), but "not these other parts" (GPL'ed stuff)?

Re:A question

[Can]

TiVo themselves have already posted their kernel modifications on the web site. They're Good Guys, usually. They have no obligation to let the rest of their code be tossed around the internet.

I suspect their concern is that someone will figure out how to hack their way into their servers or steal DirecTV service or eventually manage to run the whole image on "stock" hardware.

Much better for them to nip this copyright violation now than to try to stop it in a year or two when they'll annoy even more people. It may be harder for people to fix "hacked" TiVo's, but you take your own chances when you break that warranty seal...

Re:A question

[Otto]

I suspect their concern is that someone will figure out how to hack their way into their servers
Already done, but easily detected on their end, more or less.

or steal DirecTV service
Also already done, and not easily detectable either. But it's no easier than stealing DTV on any other DTV box.

or eventually manage to run the whole image on "stock" hardware.
Not bloody likely, and considering that this particular site has been in operation *at least* three years to my explicit knowledge, nobody is really interested.

I know a lot about Tivo and the hacking community and such, and I'm at a loss to satisfactorily explain why Tivo would do this. I suspect a Tivo lawyer found out about it. Most of the Tivo engineering people have no real issue with this sort of thing.

Tivo is well within their rights here, but to my absolute and certain knowledge, several key people at Tivo have known about ftp.abs.net for at least 2 years. I'm just not sure why this is happening now.

Three points

[Space cowboy]

1. If Tivo has commercially-sensitive proprietary kernel modules, they are not obliged to distribute them, and AFAIK, the Tivo filesystem code falls into this category

2. They're bound to get a lot of people jumping on them "you must distribute", etc. See (1).

3. They're walking a fine line. I'm setting up a Mini-ITX/Hauppage 350 PVR with MythTV as a front-end. It looks cool, and it'll have a lot more features (like: burn a DVD as well as the normal PVR stuff :-) If I can do it, a lot of others can too...

Simon

Re:Three points

[AKnightCowboy]

If Tivo has commercially-sensitive proprietary kernel modules, they are not obliged to distribute them, and AFAIK, the Tivo filesystem code falls into this category

That's not what Linus said in this earlier Slashdot story from Monday. It seems pretty unbelievable that TiVo developed their "proprietary kernel modules" for whatever hardware they're using without any knowledge of the kernel internals or intention to link the resulting binary module to the kernel. IANAL of course, but from reading through Linus' postings it seems like he thinks this kind of situation would require TiVo to release the source code to any binary kernel modules as well since they are derived from the GPL'd Linux kernel. I'm not familiar with TiVos in particular, but does anyone have any proof that they've made no derivative works from userland code or the Linux kernel without releasing source code to the modifications?

Personally I think TiVo should have to distribute the source code to their product so that people can choose whether or not they want to buy the service or would prefer to just write their own interface to guide information using XmlTV. One of the main reasons I wouldn't buy a TiVo is I don't want to be tied to one company's guide information. If they fold I am screwed and my TiVo would be useless. It almost happened to ReplayTV users.

Re:Three points

[241comp]

Speaking of MythTV - does anyone know if there are processes in MythTV that could benefit from OpenMosix? I mean besides just moving basic background processes off of the box and out to another processor, does anyone know if the actual encoding is something that could be successfully migrated off to another computer? What about when transcoding something (eg. changing the coding type)? I ask because I have a home network (100Mbps Ethernet) and both my Laptop and Desktop (XP2400+, XP2000+ respectively) are running OpenMosix and could often contribute their processing cycles if I use an OpenMosix patched kernel on a MythTV machine.

Re:Three points

[Otto]

I'm not familiar with TiVos in particular, but does anyone have any proof that they've made no derivative works from userland code or the Linux kernel without releasing source code to the modifications?

a) Tivo does distribute their kernel changes. See http://www.tivo.com/linux/index.html . There's enough there to build a Tivo kernel with a lot of effort on the user's part. In the case of later Tivo's you can't build your own *working* kernel because you can't sign the code, but there's ways around that.

b) Most of their code runs in userland, not in the kernel. This includes the MFS filesystem stuffs, AFAIK.

Re:Three points

[slim]

their kernel modules are probably GPL

TiVo's filesystem is proprietary and closed source.
Kernel modules need to be GPL, although there are some grey areas that Linus acknowledges. It's unlikely that a new filsystem would have fallen into one of those grey areas.

So, TiVo solved the problem in a novel way. They hacked the NFS client code in the kernel so that instead of communicating with an NFS server over TCP/IP, it communicates with a local userland process. They released this code under the GPL.

Then they wrote the filesystem code to run in userland, and kept that closed source, as is their right.

Re:Three points

[Aardpig]

Speaking of MythTV - does anyone know if there are processes in MythTV that could benefit from OpenMosix?

Definitely! The transcode processes would be perfect candidates for moving to another machine; they are usually quite computationally-expensive, since one is usually trying futher to compress an already-compressed stream. In my MythTV set up at home, I use a Hauppage PVR-250 to capture video in MPEG-2 format. Since the hardware does this initial encoding, the CPU is pretty much untaxed by the capture.

However, when it comes to transcoding the MPEG-2 files into MPEG-4 (to achieve double space savings), the transcode processes chew up quite a bit of CPU time. If this job could be moved to other machines, that would be very good, since it would leave spare CPU cycles on the master for playback.

RE:

[rdilallo]

Tivo's business model is upsetting everyone. Advertisers get commercials skipped, shows are getting ripped and download from the web... it doesn't surprise me that they're trying to keep their "source code" in house.

If it wasn't for someone having their image of the OS out there, I wouldn't have been able to fix my Tivo Series 2 that's less that one year old!

Hardware requirements for free alternatives?

[PastaAnta]

I know this is slightly offtopic, but what hardware is required for the free alternatives (MythTV/Freevo) to work smoothly?

Will a 1GHz VIA MiniITX board be able to do simultaneous encoding/playback (timeshifting) in MPEG2 or is an Athlon XP 1800+ necessary?

What hardware do YOU use?

Re:Hardware requirements for free alternatives?

[akedia]

I had a friend that built a TiVO with an Athlon 650Mhz (old Slot-A board), an 80Gb drive and an ATi All-In-Wonder. It would record the show and then encode it to a saved DivX or VCD. It even had a PHP interface he wrote that allowed you to program it from any webbrowser. So I'd think that the 1Ghz Nehemiah should be plenty fast for encoding.

Re:Hardware requirements for free alternatives?

[Atrahasis]

Why not read the Hardware Sections of some of the projects?
A GHz processor should do timeshifting - Freevo lists 400MHz as minimum for operation (not including simultaneous enc/dec for timeshifting), and I seem to recall 1GHz being bandied about as recommended for that.

Re:Hardware requirements for free alternatives?

[Mr Smidge]

If you purchase a card that can do hardware encoding/decoding (a Hauppage WinTV PVR 250 or 350, for example), that is well-supported under Linux, the rest of the system won't have to be too powerful, and a MiniITX board would work brilliantly. However, if you want to encode things in software (to XViD, for instance), you might need a meatier processor, as a VIA processor might choke.

Some useful links:
MythTV requirements
And for Freevo
PVR Database

Hope that helps.

Re:I smell FSF lawyers...

[InsaneGeek]

They actually do give out the source code, it's been available since day one; just mosey on over to their website and look for yourself.

Re:I smell FSF lawyers...

[Anonymous Coward]

What, you mean like this source code?

Anyhow, I don't see how distribution of images is related to the GPL. The GPL doesn't require that TiVo provide binary versions of its software. Furthermore, just because TiVos are Linux-based, who says all of the software on a TiVo box is GPL'd? Surely they have their own proprietary programs on there that don't use GPL'd code, and those programs would not allowed to be distributed in TiVo disk images.

DMCA? DMCA.

[cliffy2000]

Opening the box, extracting the images, installing the images... all illegal under the DMCA.
Is it fair? No.
But it's the law -- an asinine and relatively untested law -- but the law nevertheless.
Get used to it. Your property is no longer your property. You merely own the license for its use.

Re:DMCA? DMCA.

[InsaneGeek]

Sorry your wrong. It's not illegal to do that at all. It's only illegal to distribute the information on how to break the access control, you can *legally* modify it to your hearts content (break encryption, add backdoors, etc)

Even in this case it's not against the DMCA until Tivo puts controls in place to specifically prevent it from happening. If Tivo had put weak encryption in place and someone found a way around it, the hacker couldn't post it to the web how to do it; but also they could not be taken to jail for just doing it.

What's the problem?

[JimDabell]

How is this different to somebody hosting Windows ISOs? If there is software that is copyrighted by Tivo inside the images and they haven't given the people distributing them license to do so, then they are well within their rights to stop the distribution.

Re:What's the problem?

[wfberg]

How is this different to somebody hosting Windows ISOs? If there is software that is copyrighted by Tivo inside the images and they haven't given the people distributing them license to do so, then they are well within their rights to stop the distribution.

TiVo software is tied to the hardware anyway, there's no use for it other than on a TiVo. They are legally within their rights (as long as they don't go after people only distributing the GPL'ed bits), but morally it's a shakier situation. In essence they're using their copyrights to go after people who modify their kit; and they have no other legal avenue or compelling interest to go after people modifying their own, fully owned hardware. If you'll remember, people get uppity about such things (e.g. DMCA, modchips) all the time..

And for a windows example; why do you need a separate license to put your IT departments image of windows XP on a Dell that comes with an OEM version of XP? It's the same collection of bits, just from a different source. It's a rip off.

ReplayTv

[nearlygod]

Maybe it is time for some of the Tivo faithful to move over to ReplayTV. I wouldn't give mine up. Tivo may be better of the average consumer but if for a geek, I think ReplayTV is the way to go.

Re:ReplayTv

[AnswerIs42]

But. Replay does not work well or at all with DirecTV systems. I tried a replay last year about this time.. 3 days, a lot of calls and a lot of headaches later. I got both Replay AND DirecTV to admit that the two providers don't work well/at all with each other. ARGH! So, take the thing back to best buy and return it.. and the person at the service desk said I was the 4th person this month returning a Replay unit because they can't interact with DirecTV receivers. So, I went and got a DirecTV/Tivo receiver combo and haven't looked back since. As for building my own.. well, they don't interact with satellite TV either. Now, I am putting an antenna up so I'll be picking up about 20+ local HDTV channels.. I'll probably build a setup for that.

Re:ReplayTv

[evilviper]

but if for a geek, I think ReplayTV is the way to go.

You obviously aren't a true geek...

The true geeks custom-built their recording system from pieced together shell-scripts, perl code, and a little C. And carefully control every step of the process, to get the absolute highest performance from their setup.

ReplayTV, with it's inability to crop off black borders, hence requiring MUCH higher bitrates, and it's regular tendency to drop frames, and no way to get around that, is not functional enough to be very useful at this point. I hope it improves, but I'm not holding my breath.

Those of us who put a little more work into it, can easily have a system with much higher quality, needing less CPU time, less disk space, less memory, and overall-getting much more functionality out of the system. But I guess I'm just ranting at this point. I hope the two projects quickly get to a point that they are good options, but they certainly aren't right now, and nobody seems to be in a hurry to integrate the most important features.

Re:I smell FSF lawyers...

[Anonymous Coward]

Link to Tivo Linux source code

More informative link.

[Oscar_Wilde]

I don't know why you would link directly to sourceforge project page for Freevo when they have a much nicer homepage, including screenshots, at http://freevo.sourceforge.net/

Double check that warranty!

[LilJC]

I was in this precise position 6 months ago, except with HP. They had enough CSR's to pick up the phone when I called and keep me happy while I spoke with them, but kept sending defective units and the wrong parts (why the hell would they ship a UK power cord to the US?? Especially when I explicitly told the CSR I did not need a power cord at all????) and it took a month to fix a very simple issue. That month spanned when the original warranty ran out.

However, this is what you need to check on - with HP anyway, my warranty expired from purchase of first unit, but any replacement under warranteed had an additional 30 day warranty. So when they sent me a bad unit that arrived just after the original 6 months or whatever was up, they still had to take care of the issue. It's a minor loophole, really, but could possibly allow you to get what you paid for.

Give 'em a call and run it by someone, "hypothetically" at first.

Some people don't do any research

[Anonymous Coward]

For those GPL whiners. It took a whole 30 seconds to find this:

http://www.tivo.com/linux/index.html

Concerning point 1

[Mr Smidge]

The email from TiVo itself:

Your website (ftp.abs.net) has recently come to our attention. We appreciate your enthusiasm for the TiVo(R) DVR and we have some specific requests regarding your website.

We request that you cease hosting backup images of TiVo's proprietary software. The software represents valuable intellectual property of TiVo's, and making it available for copying and distribution is a violation of TiVo's copyrights. Such use is without our consent and is illegal under US federal copyright law. In particular, we are requesting that all of the files and directories located at ftp://ftp.abs.net/tivo/Backups/ be removed.

If they are correct in their statements, then this does indeed suggest that there is some proprietary code in addition to the GPL'd kernel in there. I suppose the best thing to do here is verify what can be distributed (under the GPL) and what can't, from the TiVo package.. (But I don't own a TiVo, so that may not be possible)

Re:Concerning point 1

[grahams]

As has been stated a gojillion times here already:

TiVo releases their kernel mods, but they have tons of userland apps that provide all the functionality that makes a Tivo what it is.

These images that were asked to be taken down were not simply kernel images, but images of the entire Tivo disk.

One good reason they may have

[wowbagger]

I follow the Tivo discusson forums, and there is one good reason Tivo may not want these images distributed.

The images for different Tivos are slightly different - a Phillips unit is not quite the same as a Sony, a DTivo is different than a stand alone Tivo, and of course Series II Tivos are MIPS rather than PPC based.

The common use case for these images goes something like this:

Joe L. Usr tries to upgrade his system. He, of course, does not back up his system. He adds a drive and botches the process.

Joe figgrs he will just download a new image and "fix" his system. So he pulls down the first image he can find, and BAM! his Tivo is now not merely broken, but toast.

Now, the upgrade sites actually require you to tell them what hardware you have, and thus (one hopes) can insure you get the correct image.

So Tivo MAY want to prevent folks from moron-izing their systems, but not have a problem with folks that don't have a history of doing so.

Re:One good reason they may have

[CrosbieSmith]

Yes, that makes a lot of sense. Might Tivo also be concerned that some of the unauthorised images may have been altered in some malicious way?

Re:One good reason they may have

[wfberg]

So Tivo MAY want to prevent folks from moron-izing their systems, but not have a problem with folks that don't have a history of doing so.

If you fudge up your system with bad software, you're out of warranty. Buy a new system. Sale! So that's not the motivation..

If you don't have access to software, there's no way to upgrade, say the harddrive, without springing for a newer model. Sale!

So, apparantly it's come to the point that more people are succesfully upgrading their kit than people who're moron-izing their systems.

Or they may be required by licenses with third parties (e.g. patent licenses for MPEG) to go after people who redistribute their software, so as to avoid paying extra costs to those third parties. In that case you'd expect them to send C&Ds, and pretty much let you off the hook once you've gone underground. This seems to be the case so far.

It's probably also the reason the commercial upgrade-kit sellers don't get in trouble; I'd assume they pay their tithe (both to TiVo (hey, why not take a slice of the cake?) and their upstream licensors).

Re:One good reason they may have

[bitchx]

Oh, come on. To use one of these images you have to:

a. Open up the Tivo - Torx Drivers required.
b. Play with the IDE cables, IDE jumpers and other crap.
c. Run Linux, or use a Linux Boot disk.

No one who does that even remotely thinks that calling CS is going to help.

Re:One good reason they may have

[PhuCknuT]

There are very detailed instructions on the web which include everything from what size torx driver you need (a couple bucks at any hardware store) to how to set the jumpers and exactly what to type at the linux command line. Loads of people who never touched linux have done the upgrade, including the kinds who would call CS right after breaking the unit themselves.

Commercial skip? WRONG!

[Anonymous Coward]

You obviously know nothing about Tivo for someone who has a series 2. There is no official Tivo commercial skip, just a widely known easter egg to enable a 30 second skip. That's quite different from a real commercial skip feature. Also, Tivo discourages shows getting ripped and downloaded from the web and I'm not really sure how one would accomplish this easily anyway though I haven't really looked much into modding besides adding capacity.

Do you all freaking work for Microsoft?

[Gannoc]

Just because they're using Linux as their OS doesn't mean they have to give out copies of their entire source tree. It also doesn't mean they have to provide isos of their HD images. It certainly doesn't mean they have to allow other people to do it.

I remember way back in the day, when Tivo hacking was overly encouraged by the company, the president of Tivo posted on the boards pissed off that people were imaging. Evidently, several people had imaged a Philips image on a Sony system or vice-versa, and it was screwing up the company's update system. That may be why they're cracking down on the sites.

Then I come here and read stuff like "Since they use linux, they're required to send an engineer over to my house to explain how their data structures work." Great! Some microsoft exec is already planning a happy hour for their marketing group. Maybe you'll get invited.

This is BS

[gad_zuki!]

First off, the DirecTivos probably have the worst QC of any DVR on the market and I found myself shipping my first DT off and waiting *are you ready for this* 4 months for a replacement. The fan decided to stop and burned out the card reader.

A few months later the HD broke. So I pulled it out and got the linux-based rescue CD-image from someone at the excellent tivocommunity forums. Luckily that old drive had a little life left in her and I managed to do a DD copy onto a new 80 gig drive.

What Tivo should be doing is producing better products and stop punishing us who are trying to fix the junk they sold us. Making money off of a fauly product is ridiculous and those with the skills to be able to fix these things deserve access to the images.

If Tivo thinks I'm going to waste another 4 months on warranty service or pay for a damn OS image that should be mostly OSS they've got another thing coming.

Tivo, I'm afraid (because I truly love their product) will be non-existant once the Comcast and Dishnetwork DVRs start coming free with the service. You can take at look at them at gizmodo. If Tivo wants to compete they need to kiss more customer ass, not spit on existing customers with lemons.

Re:This is BS

[kaybee]

I hope you are not right. I have both a Tivo and a Dish Network PVR. The Dish Network PVR is a complete piece of crap. It frequently locks up, randomly reboots, etc. It has none of the season pass features that makes the Tivo so great. It doesn't even let you give labels to your "manual timers". It is a big, glorified VCR that crashes more often.

Not only that, it doesn't record shows sometimes. A had a period of time where every show was recorded for only 1 second. I had to delete and re-create all of my manual timers.

Re:This is BS

[n1m1tz]

And for a perspective from the other side of hardware reliability; I've owned a DirecTivo unit for going on 3 years and I haven't experienced any reliability problems with my unit at all. And believe me, it gets a workout! ;)

Re:This is BS

[sogoodsofarsowhat]

So your trying to say that a failed FAN caused the card reader to go bad.....hmmmm....see ive spent a lot of time working on Tivos (especially DTivos) and well your reasoning sounds like total BS. The card reader is rated at well over 180C Your Tivo would have shut down way before this point. Now lets discuss what you said broke and what casues this breakage. I suspect that under closer examination one would find that you were attaching an external circuit to your DTIVO. Something say based on a MAX232 or 1489 serial interface. Does this sound more like the truth? Give me a break....the card reader broke....quit trying to STEAL service and you wont have that problem.

Re:This is BS

[gad_zuki!]

>well your reasoning sounds like total BS

Its not reasoning its fact. I have a melted card to prove it. A replacement card didn't work.

Whether or not the card reader broke or something else is beyong me, but it seems like the most likely scenario.

> I suspect that under closer examination one would find that you were attaching an external circuit to your DTIVO.

I have no idea what you're talking about and accusing people of theft without any proof is about as close to moral bankrupt as one can get.

Re:This is BS

[gad_zuki!]

Also, a simple google groups search shows you that the Hughes fans are notorious for failing.

See also: My usenet post regarding Hughes fans from 2002.

Facts beat conspiracy theories any day of the week.

Re:This is BS

[Dare nMc]

I can concure with this scenario. I forgot to plug in this fan when I messed with my hard drive. The unit got hot enough to melt the plastic on the HU card, and broke the fiber optic sound output, before shutting down.

Granted, Not Tivo's fault in my case. And I have had no other problems since replacing the fan.

Re:This is BS

[mattkinabrewmindspri]

I don't buy that for a second. If they ran out of units, why did they recently drop the price and introduce an upgraded model with a bigger hard drive? I would think if they were experiencing a shortage of units, that they wouldn't be trying to make that known by trying to sell more of them right now?

I don't know where you got your information, but I don't believe it. I've never had a problem finding a DirecTiVo for purchase, and from what I've read, DirecTV is actually getting very close to releasing a high-definition DirecTiVo unit.

Question for Mr. Cowboy

[Swanktastic]

I'm setting up a Mini-ITX/Hauppage 350 PVR with MythTV as a front-end. It looks cool, and it'll have a lot more features (like: burn a DVD as well as the normal PVR stuff

I was considering doing this, but the screenshots on the MythTV site are just awfully ugly. Is the interface really this klunky? It seemed to me there would be no way for my wife to operate the thing once i set it up on our living room tv. People don't want to see filepaths in the final interface, and, again, it was just extremely raw looking.

I want to believe that MythTV is better than the screenshots would indicate....

Re:Question for Mr. Cowboy

[Space cowboy]

The setup screens are a bit more techy-orientated, but the in-use ones are reasonably friendly, imho. Besides, it's themeable and modular, so feel free to improve it :-)

Actually at the moment, I'm spending more time on the hostip stuff, though that's peaked now (as far as demands on my time go), and the PVR stuff will start to take over after Xmas.

Simon.

Re:Question for Mr. Cowboy

[Lemmeoutada Collecti]

A lot of the filepaths depends on how the file in question was produced. MP# files with proper ID3 v2 tags display according to their ID3, files ripped using CDDB or FreeDB to fill in the tags display the Artist/Track/Title inf o etc.

DVD rips against the IMDB display cover art, title, etc.

The ones displaying filepaths are the ones MythTV cannot determine any other information for, i.e. the ones without proper tagging. Nothing MythTV can do about that, it tries to make a match and falls back on displaying the file path/name.

I use MythTV as a pure media viewing interface, and once configured (which can take a bit of work) it is a beautiful interface in it's simplicity. But it does depend on the original setup being done correctly, and the files being properly tagged.

YMMV

The reason they're starting to do this now.

[Anonymous Coward]

Someone figured out if you restored image from a standalone Series 2 to a HD for a DirecTivo, you could get the full range of Tivo Series 2 functionality (USB Networking, etc.). The 'second generation' DirecTivos do not have a number of features that the standalone Series 2 Tivos have (DirecTV has chosen not to enable them).

It also caused problems with DirecTV's over-the-phone software update, as every night the machine would attempt to get new software but fail after applying the patch, tying up lines for several hours.

Re:The reason they're starting to do this now.

[Otto]

DirecTivos don't do their software updates over the phone, they get them from the satellite, then dialup to verify that the machine is active, then run the patches. I can't be 100% sure, but the standalones and the DirecTivos are completely different, so there's no way to just magically make HMO (Home Media Options) work.

Not yet they don't.

DirecTivo's still get their software updates over the phone line. The capability exists to do software patching via the satellite, but to my knowledge (admittedly limited on this point), they have not used it yet.

And the "magic" way to make HMO work on Series 2 D-Tivo's is indeed to copy a Series 2 standalone image with activated HMO to the unit. This was discovered a few months ago. Tivo unified their code base with the series 2 systems a while back, and one side effect of this was that the code became unified enough to where the standalone image was in fact "close enough" to work more or less correctly on a D-Tivo. Doing this and letting it then dial in would be an exceedingly stupid thing to do, but no doubt some morons did it anyway.

This highlights a bit of a problem with Tivo's latest offerings, one that I bitched about on the Tivo Community forums back when I was still welcome there. They are charging, on a monthly basis, for what is essentially a one time software update. Every feature of the HMO (Home Media Option) stuff, with the exception of web access to your Tivo, is done by the unit itself and requires no external connection as such. The MP3 playing, show sharing, picture viewing, all of that doesn't need the unit to call home to be able to do any of it. So it was really only a matter of time before someone flipped their own switches on the box, I argued. The unification of the code base between D-Tivo's and Standalones let people figure out how to flip their own switches on the D-Tivo's as well. Take an HMO activated standalone, copy it to the D-Tivo, voila.

Tivo is headed down the drain, IMO. They made a very good product, and changed the landscape of TV viewing. But they've made some very poor decisions with regards to their business strategies and software designs, and now it's starting to bite them in the ass.

I'm starting to feel like it's only a matter of time before it's full on war between Tivo hackers and Tivo Inc., and Tivo Inc. doesn't stand a chance on this one. The majority of Tivo sales have classically been via word of mouth, and if they don't turn it around, they're going to alienate their best and most vocal sellers, ya know?

Re:The reason they're starting to do this now.

[The Wicked Priest]

HMO is not charged for monthly; it IS a one-time charge.

Of course you can...

[Otto]

That's more or less exactly how these images were made. Early on, images were made using dd. Nowadays, people make images using a special program called "mfstool" which is capable of backing only the necessary parts of the Tivo drive, reducing the size of the created image. So all the sites recommend making your *own* image. But sites like abs.net existed as a just in case type of mechanism. If your system failed, and you never made a backup, here was a solution.

It was well known (or should have been) that distributing these was illegal, and this was in fact why I didn't allow posting links to these sites on the Tivo Community forums, back when I was running the Underground forum there. But they were well known nonetheless, and I myself sent links to abs.net to users in need.

Tivo is well within their rights to not have these images distributed, but it's a pretty sad thing that they now feel the need to exert those rights. I guess it's finally happened and Tivo is no longer "hacker" friendly. Oh well. It was a joyous time while it lasted, I guess.

Re:Of course you can...

[Otto]

Boy, you sure can read between the lines.. Badly, I might add.

business model is based on extorting a monthly fee for a VCR

With the standalones, it's not all that unexpected.. The unit needs continuing guide data, Tivo provides that data. Value received for payment made. With the D-Tivo's you have a point, but the fee on the D-Tivo's is so low that it's not even worth thinking about it.

acting like a jackbooted thug and violating the GPL

Tivo isn't violating the GPL, in even the most restrictive sense you can possibly put the GPL. They're totally in the clear on this one.

you're saying that you're surprised

I'm surprised in that I'm not sure what this particular action gets them in terms of a gain. It's one thing if this was costing them subscriptions or sales, but it's not, as far as I can see. So I fail to understand why they took this course, because it gains them nothing of import.

alternatives?

[Mr_Silver]

considering there are free alternatives that are less restrictive

Is it really an alternative? I don't mean that lightly, i mean is freevo really just as good as tivo in every single way so as to make it a prefectly viable alternative?

Or is this is a case of it'll work reasonably well, some things it'll do that Tivo can't, something won't work as well, the interface won't be quite so polished, it won't do everything you'd hope it did, it's got a few quirks here and there and above all the hardware actually costs more to purchase before you even start thinking about messing around trying to get it installed.

Or will it save you hours of pain if you just cough up the money and get something that works as soon as you plug it in?

Yes, I know there is KnoppixMyth, but can you really set that up and give it to your parents? Looking at the technical specifications for one record and one playback (1.4 GHz CPU and 384 megabytes of RAM) thats quite pricey and you haven't even considered the fact it'll be a huge box and you need a DVD drive, controller, HD and some serious soundproofing.

Not something that you can sit under the TV!

Re:alternatives?

[SnowDog_2112]

he does not miss the pause live tv function. I'm betting 99% of them won't.

Don't bet too much on that. While I bought a TiVo for the recording features, I've quickly found pausing live TV to be one of the most-used features it has.

I'm not kidding when I say that the pause and replay buttons get used to death in my house, while watching live TV. Maybe if all I watched was pre-recorded I would feel differently, but as it stands now I still watch a fair amount of live TV. Being able to pause the news while getting up to stir dinner or answer the phone, or replay a sports play right away, is a television-changing experience.

I'm new to TiVo. I am far from a TiVo-vangelist. But it really does change it from the TV networks owning you to vice-versa.

I thought about doing a home-brew, but in the end I wanted an appliance I could use, not another hobby I don't have time to keep up with :).

Re: Is GPL in law?

[Dashing Leech]

Is GPL even recognized by law?

What do you mean by "recognized"? It is a license, which is essentially a contract. IANAL, but I do know that all licenses/contracts that do not explicitly violate laws and are by definition legal, hence "recognized" by law.

Now it hasn't been tested in court. It's possible that it violates some provision of contract law, which differ by country, but I've never heard anybody ever suggest any violation of law in the GPL, other than SCO's hallucinogenic diatribe about it being unconsititution, which doesn't pass the laugh test.

But AFAIK, my licenses to use just about any software on my computer (MS Windows, Office, Matlab, CorelDraw, etc.) have not been tested in court either. That doesn't make them "pipedreams". There really is no such thing as "recognized by law", only valid or invalid licenses & contracts, and you need an explicit violation to be invalid.

Tivo's userland code is the issue

[Otto]

But if they've added drivers for TiVo specific hardware (don't know if there is any, don't have a TiVo) then it's down to the old binary modules argument, and if they've modified the kernel in any way then they need to release those modifications.

There is and they have. http://www.tivo.com/linux

The objection to distribution of images is that image necessarily contain their proprietary userland code, which is decidely not GPL.

Re:Tivo's userland code is the issue

[HTH NE1]

The objection to distribution of images is that image necessarily contain their proprietary userland code, which is decidely not GPL.

As well as certain video content which is also copyrighted by TiVo, such as the menu background video loops.

It has been made clear to the people at the AVS Forum website that offering drive images for download would be infringing and that no postings there would entertain such action. In not-so-recent history this appeared to become more lax. Apparently the hammer has come down.

Another issue is people installing Series2 standalone images on their USB-enabled DirecTiVo combination boxes so that they could run 4.0 on that platform. The installation apparently works. Any discussion of this is now forbidden on the aformentioned forum. Shutting down image providers will shut down people's ability to make the installation.

This may also however make it impossible to do the kernel monte hack to regain access to the software in face of the lockdowns in the firmware. Though it should be possible to hack together a monte-able image without including TiVo-proprietary code.

Re:TiVo != NVidia

[Otto]

I haven't seen TiVo's userland code, but I expect it's tightly tied to their own libs and module code.

You'd probably be wrong there. I haven't seen the actual userland code either, but I have messed about on the Tivo extensively, and it's not "tightly" tied by any means. They do have modules for the hardware which they have released, I think, but these provide more or less normal interfaces to it for the most part, and there's little need to compile their headers and such into the userland code and so forth. The kernel modules mostly just provide /dev device interfaces which any program can use, type of thing. It's a pretty good layer of separation, in other words.

Re:Done Nothing Wrong?

[PhuCknuT]

Why do people insist on posting comments on things they know nothing about?

Tivo's KERNEL is GPL, and SOME of tivo's userland is GPL, and tivo has always released the code for their modifications to GPL software they used. But tivos also have proprietary software on them, that is not based on GPL code, and is not released under the GPL, and they have every right to control distribution of it. Just because the GPL binaries and the proprietary binaries are on the same hard drive doesn't give someone the right to image the drive and distribute the proprietary binaries.

I don't understand how people can bash someone for controlling distribution of their own work, and still support the GPL at the same time. The GPL is all about controlling distribution of your work.

money

[perlchild]

Why TiVo has a problem with this, but allows others to sell the same images for profit is beyond me." That one's obvious, because the "for-pay" images channel parts of the profit back to TiVo somehow, either through advertising, or commission on sales, etc...

TiVo alternatives not viable

[Captain Rotundo]

I would switch to a freevo like program in a second, you point me to the card for my PC that can decode DirecTV, or for that matter digital cable. I have directv and a couple of TiVos the integration is seemless and workds great, my family has digital cable with a stand-alone tivo that automatically changes the channel on the cable box, it is super annoying and I don't know how they put up with it (not to mention the advantage of dual recievers) - I even know someone who has a TiVo that can't change the cable box's channel if the number has consecutive digits (ie 33 or 44) TiVo says its a problem with the box, and vice versa.

The service providers hold thier hardware close to the chest, as long as all I can do with a PC card is standard broadcast or remote IR control I am locked out. The service with a single integrated unit it too good.

I don't even dump video to disc or anything, I don't care about TV enough to do it, but the cable/satellite people don't release PC based decoders because they are afraid of what may happen (I am not really sure why, the ones that aren't content providers shouldn't even care what we do with the feed)

Maybe the "broadcast flag" will give them an excuse to make computer peripherals that work with satellite and digital cable ? (slim chance I know but I can hope :) - either way as soon as I see a PCI card that does directv I'll order it immediately (price factoring in of course)

Commerical skip may be a really bad thing.

[swaic]

As annoying as commercials may be, it could be a lot worse. If people start simply forwarding through the commercials, advertisers are going to get networks to embed them within the program/show itself.

As much as commercials may suck, you definitely don't want a constant ticker at the bottom of your screen for coke/tampons/etc.. It could be even worse with those little ads you find on Discovery and History Channel and the rest, in the bottom right or left corner of the screen. They're usually for upcoming shows. These things keep taking up more and more room and sometimes obstruct pertinent information on the screen.

Re:There is another......

[FireFury03]

MythTV works perfectly with a decoder box - you set the input to S-Video (or composite if you can put up with composite quality), tell it to use an external channel changer script and write a short script to send the right commands to the decoder using LIRC and a IR diode.

I use Myth with my Sky Digital box very happilly - my LIRC configuration and channel changer script is on my website. The hardware required is just an IR LED across the serial port (as described on the LIRC website). I also have an IR receiver plugged into the same serial port so I can control Myth with my original Sky remote control.

No, it's not

[HarveyBirdman]

Is it really an alternative?

No "free alternative" can compete with an integrated unit with dual tuners and direct digital capture of the original DirecTV data streams combined with a mature GUI for (as of today) $99. Generic PC solutions will rarely beat a specialized device with embedded components dedicated to a single function.

The fanatics will cry about the monthly fee because, as far as I can tell, they place zero value on their time. Honestly, I sometimes get an image of these guys stuffing their uncashed paychecks into their mattresses while in the other room they are trying to reinvent the wheel.

Re:

[Rude Turnip]

If skipping commercials was a problem, then advertisers would have been bitching since the dawn of the VCR. Tivo doesn't make it any easier to fast forward through a commercial.

All advertisers need to do is make their commercials interesting and relevant. I hardly ever skip the commercials during Adult Swim because they're so fun to watch.

Insightful? You don't have a Tivo, do you?

[Moderation abuser]

The "choices" are all shit. No, really. Compared to a Tivo, they are expensive *and* crap. Basically you need a PC to dedicate to the task, that alone is more expensive than a Tivo and then you need to fuck about with it for days to get it half as functional as a lobotomised Tivo.

The software in the Tivo images contains Tivo's code. Taking that code and distributing it without permission is very simply and plainly copyright infringement. You just shouldn't do it. By all means take a backup, but the code is not yours to give away.

Tivo do comply with the GPL, (http://www.tivo.com/linux/) so if you want the GPL'd code, go get it.

the death of TiVo

[The Lynxpro]

You know, I'm really sick of reading all these predictions of the death of TiVo from various soothsayers here on Slashdot. If you doubt TiVo's staying power, I suggest you stroll down to your local Best Buy and see how many TiVos they have stacked up ready to sell for the holiday season. Best Buy is predicting large sales of TiVos; the same for the Xbox this season.

TiVo has buzz. Yes, it is true that Dish has been hurting TiVo by giving away the inferior DishPlayer PVR as standard fare and thus DirecTV has been putting pressure on TiVo to renegotiate their contract to keep price competitive, but when people hear what a PVR is, they think TiVo. Look at the current DirecTV promo; up to 3 rooms for $38.99 per month (plus the $99 sign-up fee) and you can get the master receiver as a TiVo Series2 unit for only $5 per month more (service fee) or free if you bump up to one of the Total Choice Packages. That's a great deal. Unfortunately, DirecTV has chosen not to enable the Home Media Option for whatever reason.

Bottom line is, TiVo will be profitable by Q1 2004 (with the increase of subscribers), both to the chagrin of lots of advertisers, the Nielsens, the chief of Turner Broadcasting, the new owners of Replay, Microsoft, and some Slashdotters who refuse to support a company that is actually putting Linux devices at the heart of entertainment centers throughout the nation...of course, without TiVo as a subject, these same posters would be ranting about the deaths of Apple or Sun instead...

The world isn't ending

[Overzeetop]

Holy mackeral. Such outrage at what (for a lawyer) was a fairly straightforward request. Is is possible that there might be a middle ground, allowing partial or logged access to the images with the permission of TiVo.

Sure, TiVo has had issues with some of the hacking done, especially wrt video extraction. Overall, however, they have been very laid back about the tinkering with the internals of a consumer electronics box. They appear to be scared stiff about running afoul of content distribtuion laws, but they don't want their business model (and hard work) to go up in smoke because of over zealous users to whomo they provided assistance. The assistance of TiVo is what has given it the core of it's cult following.

Perhaps if abs.net opened a dialog, a solution might be found which keeps some or all of the images online. And of course, as mentioned in other posts, if the host goes down the folks who are smart enough to use the images are also smart enough to know where to find 'em without an ftp site.

Cracking/theft of service...now that's just not nice, and TiVo has every right to pound 'em into the ground.

I know why

[Bwana]

Because they're in the midst of releasing updates to the OS to work with Apple's AAC format with Home Media Option. I bet there's some code that Apple doesn't want to share (I don't blame them). Apple probably told them to stop allowing image downloads if they're going to get on the AAC front.

Just my $0.02.

Re:I smell FSF lawyers...

[Moderation abuser]

I think you'll find that Tivo do in fact comply with the GPL but ironically, those distributing the binary disk images *do not* comply with the GPL. If the FSF were to go after anyone, it would be those providing the binary only backup images...

GPL and non-GPL code. How Tivo works underneath.

[digital photo]

From some of the posts online, you'd think some people have no idea how the law works and/or how a Tivo works.

Tivos) The images for series1 and series 2 tivos are essentially the same, allowing for differences in the hardware. The capabilities each Tivo has is dependant on what they are "allowed" for. Ie, home media option and such is enabled when the Tivo connects to the server and determines that it should be enabled.

Along that note, the things which a downloader of a Tivo image would be potentially "stealing":

• Tivo's copyrighted and protected source code to their custom application.
• Tivo's copyrighted and protected filesystem code.
• Tivo's copyrighted and protected images/works/video clips for the menu systems, and sound effects.
• The copyrighted video streams which are buffered on the hard drives, if the downloadable image contains such items.
• The potential bypassing of the access enablers for their home media option services and/or their lifetime membership flags. But these are stored on Tivo's servers and would be cleared on the next download.

The GPL states that if you modify the kernel itself and distribute it, you will need to distribute the modified source code as well. Tivo HAS done this. They have placed the GPL related portions along with their own direct modifications to the kernel for download on their web site.

Kernel modules and other object linked source code is still being hotly debated, for better or for worse. The stance most companies take is to distribute binary modules.

The application which runs on top of Linux, however, is NOT gpl'd. Nor are all of the other control mechanisms which Tivo has written. Nor are the images and other creative works put into the Tivo system.

By offering an image of the drive for download, that Tivo user is offering both GPL'd(which is ok) and Copyrighted(which is not okay) works. And since just backing up the GPL portions of the Tivo system will not restore the system, the image that user is offering is in violation of Copyright laws and Tivo has the right to and needs to tell them to stop.

Just because you use a GPL base for an OS does NOT make your application GPL as well. Graphical libraries are another matter and hence the LGPL, the BSD license, and a few others.

People need to understand that it isn't about being against GPL. It is about protected the portion which ISN'T GPL. And people aren't seeing that distinction when they should.

I've been a user of a Series2 Tivo for 2 years now and love it. One of the first appliances I bought when I moved into my current place. I upgraded mine and have had no problems with it. Though I'm thinking I'll be doing some routine maintenance myself to make sure the drives are okay, but otherwise, I have no complaints about image quality or any other problem with the system. (Except maybe the USB1.1 port which limits me to 11mbps when I really want 100mbps... :)

Tivo has been a great company and has always been courteous when I had problems or questions of them. They see something wrong happening and they are doing what needs to be done to rectify the problem.

They should not be dinged when they try to protect something legitimately, unlike another company which comes to mind.

Figuring out a Tivo

[fm6]

So what were the symptoms? I ask because I have a Tivo gather dust, 'cause I can't afford to fix it. It worked well for about six months, then start freezing up intermittently. (Most irritating to come home and find ones favorite show not recorded.) These freezes became more and more frequent, until the system was unusable. Reinitializing the system helped, as did turning of the "record stuff I might like" feature, but in the end the system couldn't go for more than a few minutes without freezing up.

A lot of discussions with Tivo enthusiasts and video wonks made me think it had to be a hardware problem. (I forget my chain of reasoning -- it's been over a year.) But then again it did start misbehaving right after one of those upgrades.

There's a lot to love about a Tivo -- when it's working, it's every bit as good as its most rabid fans claim. But there's also stuff about it's that's totally ridiculous. Like:

• The whole UI is obviously designed by not very creative people implement a checklist derived from a focus group. So it's basically pretty user-friendly, but doesn't include features any bright geek would automatically implement, like a simple procedure for dealing with overlaps, or a better feedback when it doesn't record something you told it to record.

• The Tivo people are smart and nice, basically, but they won't ever admit that they've screwed up -- and they do screw up.

• Every mass market product has rabid, short-tempered fans who will dump on you if you even imply that the product has flaws. But I never seen a product with so many. I mean, you even post a friendly suggestion in the Tivo suggesion forum, and a dozen angry bozos call you an idiot. Never mind trying to hold an intelligent conversation about technical problems.

Compromise

[_Brazil_]

There should be a compromise. The backup images should be of only the old backups, so then it would force them to start and download the software upgrades from Tivo directly... Or better, document what is needed for a bare backup, and have it standard to download the rest directly from Tivo...

Then Tivo would have all there stats on who is doing what, then they could see how they should be treating thier market. Inpaticular, the market of the Tivo Hackers... Maybe charge 2$ for more than 3 backup downloads, if they have too. Just something minor.

I just whish there was some DirecTv PCI card, then I would love MythTV. I want to to keep it all digital, in and out... ;) Maybe if you a HDTV reciver w/ a firewire connector; but then you probably wouldn't be allowed to record.

Re:That's not the *complete* source code

[sholden]

Should we believe your opinion or Linus' opinion?

Mmmm... decisions, decisions...