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FEMA Opposes Broadband Over Powerlines
Curmudgeon Rick writes "According to eHam.net, the Federal Emergency Management Agency has put a submission to the FCC strongly opposing the use of powerlines for broadband distribution. The report can be found here [PDF link]. IMO, vendors should let powerline broadband die. They keep defibrillating it only because of the dollars they poured in; but it is and always was a dead duck." The submission concludes: "FEMA has concluded that introduction of unwanted interference from the implementation of BPL technology into the high frequency radio spectrum will result in significant detriment to the operation of FEMA [emergency] radio systems such as FNARS."
Well there are commerical ventures in the UK which are selling broadband over powerlines
news report
Rus
Cheap UK and US VPS
BTW, despite the pages looking like it's a done deal, they've only trialled it in two towns to date and have no availability checker on their Web site, so I'm not expecting this to be rolled out to a wider UK audience for quite some time yet.
Oh, and the very obvious reason why this seeming dead duck is still being touted around is that rural UK users have neither cable nor ADSL. With satellite Internet being ludicrously expensive, this powerlines gubbins [if it works properly] might be the only way that those in the "country" can get broadband at a sensible price...
Satellite is expensive and still uses dial-up for upstream comm.
Yeah, five years ago it did. All satellite services now offer bidirectional satellite.
Transmission conditions would be fine- but then you're talking about a transmitter with a lot of power compared to the BPL system. The transmitter might even jam the BPL system if it were working.
What they're worried about is reception. Over long distances, while the signals are detectable, they're really pretty weak comparatively speaking. The stuff that the BPL systems are generating are in the ballpark of the signal levels that might be detectable, so the signals from the BPL will be most likely the ones you detect.
So, you might be in a FEMA office, say like in Denton, Texas, where the power is on- but the emergency is in Corpus Christi or Brownsville. Power's out THERE because of a disaster- but the locally running BPL system's causing merry hob with your reception of the signal from that location.
I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the State of Texas
Satellite is expensive and still uses dial-up for upstream comm
Not true, they have two-way satellite connections. The up-stream is generally in the 64kbit range (so, about twice that of an average phone connection (which for the upstream ~32k))
Casual Games/Downloads
Microwave /s making it faster than the ADSL and Cable options. These ISPs tend to service the outskirts of the cites. The service costs a little more than ADSL or Cable.
Here in Canada our population is spread out even more than than the US.
We also seem to have the most high-speed internet options.
There are Microwave based ISPs here that offer 2 way communication at 10Mbits
EA David Gardner -"... but the consumers have proven that actually what they want is fun."
The problem is called frequency harmonics. For example, if you are broadcasting at 10,000MHz, there will be harmonics at 5000MHz, 2500MHz, 1250MHz, and so forth (cutting the frequency in half each time).
The amount of energy on each harmonic is about half of the previous harmonic. From the previous example, if you have 50W at 10,000MHz, you probably have 25W at 5000MHz, 12.5W at 2500MHz, and 6.25W at 1250MHz.
What certainly doesn't help matters is that power lines are electromagnetically unshielded, essentially making them giant antannas(sp?) for broadcasting. Needless to say, this causes tremendous interference.
Considering (US numbers) it takes about 776 miles of power line to make an efficient 1/4 wave 60Hz antenna and just 2.5 feet for 100MHz, it is fairly clear that adding high frequency content to the power lines can easily cause significant radiation.
Google is your friend...
The FEMA, CAP, Dept of Defense and the Hams all operate as the same wavelength as the BPL. That is why it is opposed. The http://www.arrl.org/ has a video on their web site showing a ham radio station and a BPL system that interfere with each other. When the government or hams key up their radios it will interfere with the BPL system. The frequency spectrum for BPL to be used is 2 to 80 MHz which is the same band used by police, fire, ships, the military and hams. There is another proposal to use 5 GHz for BPL and I think that if that is allowed there will be a lot less problems for everyone. For example BPL in California could interfere with the California Highway Patrol radio system.
You can do VPN over satellite... a quick google search would show that.
No not really but then I know something about radio.
wireless broadband uses 2.4 or 5 Ghz. That is up in the microwave range. It will not interfere with the HF stuff the FEMA cares about.
See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
Besides, how arogant can you be to think that hams should have their equipment sitting around useless because of lots of broadband over powerlines spectrum polution, not even be able to pratice using it or train new hams, and then expect that there will be no problem when there is a power and communication emergency just because the local broadband interference is now temporarly eliminated?
I'm an American. I love this country and the freedoms that we used to have.
Satellite.
Yeah, latency is lame, but the speed is good.
Alternately, find a friend who can get broadband and set up a WIFI link.
Just about all of them. AT&T's offering
Si vis pacem, para bellum
The only thing more annoying than a Libertarian is an (un|mis)informed Libertarian
2 way 11Mbit/s over Microwave
Air Surfer
EA David Gardner -"... but the consumers have proven that actually what they want is fun."
It isn't about the WAN--it is about the size of the antenna. Think about it. Miles and miles of powerlines already make great antennas for all sorts of things that we wish they didn't pick up (WAER in Syracuse, NY, for instance--the transmitter is downtown in the university area). One can only imagine the havoc that having wide bandwidth signals spewing from such a large antenna would cause if it were done at high enough power levels to be useful. Hell, internet over plain cable TV lines does bad things to RF freespace spectrum that isn't allocated to the cable system as primary--due to poor installations. You think that the power distribution grid is any better? Ha! You can hear a 60Hz hum on many frequencies in many places in US due to leakage on the power lines. Imagine adding internet width spectra to that!
So, the question is not LAN/WAN--it is antenna size!
Here or if that gets Slashdotted, here
Tired of being "punished" by the Slashdot $rtbl since 2002. I'm now over at http://soylentnews.org/ .
And that link for sprint was typed wrong, it is SprintBroadband, not springbroadband. Sorry.
--ngoy
why doesn't putting a signal over a power line act like a big antenna?
It does. Thus we have a ubiquitous 60hz hum that every interference-sensitive hunk o' wires within 20 miles of a power line needs to waste time/space/energy to filtering that frequency out. An if the hunk 'o wires in question actually has the express purpose of looking in the 60hz range, good luck - It might take less effort to fly to Siberia than to filter out line noise yet allow a desired near-60hz target signal to pass.
(For those in the UK, change "60" to "50")
Last month I was in Clovis Califorina and I could her BPL on my Mobile HF set up in the early evening at 3975. The band was long. BPL propigates just like all RF signail in the HF bands. There is no BPL in Clovis/Fresno Ca. It was skip. It was 20 over S9. BPL is a threat to all HF communications. It should be banned world wide.
If you don't like what I write don't be a CS and mod it down. Refute it.
Yea I can't spell. So what is your point?
hahaha - if you worked at FEMA like I did for 6 months, you would realize how hilarious this particular conspiracy is. In fact, in general, my three years in the federal government has me laughing at every black clothed secret government agent I see in the movies.
Seriously, if you saw how much FEMA has to bend over backwards to governors and local officals, you'd realize how silly this is.
And a governmental department generally cannot be "unconstitutional". Congress may try to give it powers in an unconstitutional manner, or it might attempt to take an unconstitutional action, but an unconstitutional entity?
How do you know it wasn't used? IIRC, it was used in 9/11 as a means of communication for people. HAM during emergencies is not designed for everyone to use to make a phone call. Instead, it is used for emergency personell to communicate where they normally wouldn't be able to. For example, if the phones are out between HQ and a staging area, then HAM would step in and provide communications between the two. Plus, if you consider the amount of radio traffic that would have been going on at a single point in time, if there was need for an emergency communication, HAM could be used instead of waiting for the average cop to get off the radio. Basically, bandwidth is added when necessary.
There are also many HAMs in Texas, and all over tornado alley, that are used for weather spotting. These guys are driving where there are no cell phone towers (or the towers have been damaged), and need to communicate back to the weather center. This is a system that is used every year by many people, and many lives are saved b/c of the work they do.
Re. your comment about turning off the broadband.... When do you think they will practice their skills? The radio operators have to practice calmly so that where there is an emergency, they can still operate. There are a lot of shorthand codes that they have to know so that they can give lots of information in a short amount of time. If they can't practice, how will they know what frequency to use? Who is going to be in charge? How do they organize themselves?
Basically, you're full of shit, and shouldn't talk. Just b/c there is stuff going on behind the scenes that you don't know about doesnt' mean that you can spout off. Do your research first.
Now, if that makes sense to anyone, could you please explain it to me? I think I've confused myself.
That's a about 0.5 seconds on top of what you would normally get with DSL (minimum ping time with DSL is about 20-40 ms).
The bandwidth is fine; but 0.5 seconds is easily enough to be irritating. Still, if you've got nothing else, you'll survive, unless you're trying to play Quake III.
-WolfWithoutAClause
"Gravity is only a theory, not a fact!"Except they actually want Part 15 changed so they don't have to do anything.
Agreed, as a HAM radio operator I am very aware of the problems caused up BPL. It would basically kill any HF work, if it were to become widespread. Things are bad enough the way they are now.
It would really suck ass if the next time I was out hiking or in a remote area and some emergency happened, and I needed to get out on HF that no one would be able to pick it up because of BPL.
OK, you're an A.C. and you're stupid; I'll type this very slowly so maybe you can follow it....
As I said above, the HF bands are used in an emergency to reach areas that do have power. They may be used to relay information about the safety of people in the affected area, they may be used to request life saving medical supplies, or to summon other emergence service providers to the affected area and let them know what to expect and what they need to bring when they come. If the areas they are trying to contact that do have power can't receive a ham radio signal because of their own broadband over powerline signal polution, then it is a serious problem. And quite simply, there are already laws against it. Hams, other people, and other industries have to follow the regulations against such interfearing radio signals, I so no reason why the power industry should not have to also.
I'm an American. I love this country and the freedoms that we used to have.
Ok i live in upstate NY and two of the most recent events that would be needed for the emergency brodcast system (9/11, and the Black out this past summer) didn't use it ! Not once was it used durring either event ! so basicaly they should have no say, its an outdated system that is never used anymore. Furthermore if there is such an emergency they could trip the broadband so it turns off so it won't disrupt their signal ...
In anycase horid decision making done by idiotitic buerocrats, to even make a statement like they are.
If this was a valid argument the FCC would be involved.
How do you get a couple hundred independent utilities to shut off their BPL systems in an emergency ? Is residential Internet really so important as we need to wreck infrastructure independent radio communications ? And what about being about to train to use the radio equipment during non-emergency times ?
The EAS doesn't even use HF frequencies and it was established by the FCC. It's a silly statement to dismiss FEMA because you haven't heard EAS broadcasts. And then you say the FCC would be involved ?? They released a friggin Notice of Inquiry months ago. Also, the NTIA which trumps the FCC in spectrum regulatory matters has taken notice and now they're doing a study.
Tired of being "punished" by the Slashdot $rtbl since 2002. I'm now over at http://soylentnews.org/ .
The PLB signal is inserted at the step down point from the high voltage long distance distribution system to the "low" voltage consumer distribution system. The insert is normally done by running fibre the local step down transformer then muxing it onto the electricity line using a special switch.
You wouldn't be able to get PLB anyway if you have your own transformer.
It's an electrical signal.A weak one too.
If you don't like what I write don't be a CS and mod it down. Refute it.
Yea I can't spell. So what is your point?
Also, keep in mind that disaster area communications often use crude antennas and battery power. So their signals aren't likely to be that strong. In addition, for the 50-300 miles you typically want to go in an emergency, the best frequencies are usually low HF (80 and 40 meters), where the noise problems are the worst.
Finally, if this bad idea trashes the HF spectrum, it'll be hard to persuade hams to put out $1000 and up of their own money for a system that can ONLY be used when the power is down.
--Mike Perry, KE7NV
And not just cordless phones either. Baby monitors and other non-licensed equipment at 49 MHz will be toast. Certainly HF radio will get clobbered by BPL, but VHF-Lo will become unusable, as you'll see below.
s t/2003-08/msg00562.html to get an idea of what this is all about.
BPL is touted as the saviour for rural residents away from cable and DSL service, right? Hope you enjoy your nice fast broadband when your house is on fire and your kids are trapped upstairs, because guess what, bunky? *MOST RURAL FIRE DEPARTMENT RADIOS ARE VHF-Lo Band* -- between 30 and 50 MHz -- since that band has much better range than VHF-Hi, UHF and 800+ over flat country. Ditto for the volunteer rescue squad and sheriff's office in Podunk County...better start IMing them for help and directions when the burglars drop by for tea, since their squad-car radios won't pick up a blasted thing as they travel on the county roads underneath all those Porn-Packed Power Lines!
Maybe you can forget about all this nonsense and just watch a little TV? Oh, I almost forgot. If you've got an outside antenna to receive local broadcast television, you can almost write off channels 2 - 6, which operate between 54 and 88 MHz, unless you're almost right under the transmitter. Don't worry about watching the weather warnings on Channel 3 a few towns away, your weather radio will warn you of the twister heading for community -- unless a nice second harmonic is creating a strong enough local signal in your house to blot out the 162 MHz band (81 x 2 = 162 MHz, where weather radios operate). Mightn't radiate very far, but it could pack just enough of a wallop to cause your WX radio to fail as that F5 bears down on you knobby little body.
And better get some more homeowners' insurance if you live near a major airport cuz one of the ILS approach nav-aid beacons ("fan marker") sits smack-dab at 75 MHz. Not to mention the possibility of radio-controlled model airplanes losing contact with their control box and going awry when junior is flying them in the park near home -- they're also around 72 and 75 MHz.
This is NOT your average FUD. This is very real, and I've heard/seen what this can do in Briarcliff Manor, a small test market north of New York City. Please wander over to http://www.ac6rm.net/mailarchive/html/elecraft-li
Cheers, Peter, W2IRT