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Kazaa Ruled Legal in The Netherlands
DreamerFi writes "Developers of Kazaa cannot be held liable for the way people use their software, the Dutch Supreme Court has ruled. The dutch version of the RIAA, BUMA Stemra is now expected to start lawsuits against individuals, following the american lead, according to dutch news channels."
Well d-uh.
Any successful attempt at making code illegal will just turn it into samizdat and speed the adoption of encrypted & anonymous P2P apps (ala FreeNet). It's too bad the recording industry doesn't put as much effort into signing new and original bands as they do fighting to protect their antiquated business model.
Yes, I buy CDs but nothing you'd see on a Top 40 chart, will that make me a criminal one day?
Trolling is a art,
Nuff said.
Because of all this shit over music I have stoped buying. I use to try out stuff on the old napster (tells you how long ago that was) and if I liked I would get the CD, but now that the RIAA (and co.) has made it clear they don't want my busness, I have stoped, stoped listening and stoped buying. And the radio music stations have way to many comercials to be enjoyable. I have moved on to talk radio, and I have to say I think I enjoy talk radio more, and there seams to be far less comercials then music radio. Good by music, hello talk.
Ah, it's refreshing to see some sanity in the courts, even if it is on another continent. If the courts blame kazaa for what its users do, it would logically follow that we'd have to blame gun manufacturers for the actions of bank robbers, blame car manufacturers for the crimes of people involved in hit-and-run accidents, and blame alcohol manufacturers for the stupid things drunk people do.
WARNING: If accidentally read, induce vomiting.
I use Kazaa to find the music that the recording industry refuses to sell online OR in CD stores. If they are so concerned about losing revenue, why don't they just sell the music?
The dutch version of the RIAA, BUMA Stemra is now expected to start lawsuits against individuals, following the american lead
It's about time some judge realizes that P2P is perfectly legal. If there is illegal activity going on (piracy), then it is up to the authorities/owners to find out who the perps are, and do what they feel is necessary.
Hopefully, if these RIAA-led anti-piracy campaigns are successful, it will be more ammo against the DMCA. After all, why would that unconstitutional law be necessary if they have a more effective means of enforcing their copyrights?
What isn't legal in the Netherlands?
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Because it's not the US - it's liberal Europe, with a different mindset. We've outgrown our empire building, and can relax with legal drugs, euthanasia, same-sex marriage, far fewer problems with racism, pornography etc. A far cry from the uptight US.
Let's say I use Quickbooks to bookkeep an illegal betting service at my school. Is someone going to sue Quicken Software (or whoever the mfg is) for my use of their software. NO! If anythingthey should allow programmers and designers to learn from the program and develop new ideas on future software. The fact the KaZaa had to be established on the Island of Vanuatu, where corporate laws are far different form US or other westernized economies is ridiculous! Let business flourish! As Adam Sith would say: "laissez faire!"
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You mean 12-year-old girls? This isn't going to help either, the only way to solve the p2p piracy thing is to provide better ways for the customers to get music without them feeling robbed, buying a CD with 1 good song, and 10 fillers doesn't make the customer feel right at all, so customers use p2p instead.
Napster and iTunes are good steps on the way, lots of people are buying music through them instead of the old, above mensioned ways.
The IT section color scheme sucks.
So kudos to the court, who are dead right. Kazaa should not be a special case and made illegal, just like video recorders, DVD burners, CD burners, cassette recorders, MP3 player/recorders, codecs, etc etc. The music industry reply is that the files could easily be filtered to stop copyrighted material from being shared. I beg to know how they propose to find out from an MP3 file whether it is copyrighted; the "copyright" bit in the files is removeable so that's not a solution is it?
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We (the dutch) pay an extra tax (something like 50 cents) on each blank CD, and up to 1.50 on blank dvd's.... It really gets my heartrate going when I think about that.
Furthermore, this decision only affects distribution from The Netherlands. The advocat general briefly touches US, UK and German law, but does not draw any conclusions from this.
So, also regarding the recent decisions in California, Kazaa will probably live as a programme.
However, the BUMA/STEMRA (dutch equivalents of the US RIAA) will probably start now with lawsuits to individual end-users who offer large amounts of files on-line. A lot of case law with respect to tort by offering infriningement illegal information on-line is already available, so the real ground battle can start. Bring in the grunts (copyright lawyers, that is).
They blatently prodice a place/means for people to illegally share copyrighted material. this is its major purpose, and the kazaa developers know that.
If you know about a crime, and you don't do anything about it (or at least try to) you are breaking the law in many places. The fact that Kazaa has not ever tried to limit the music swapping is proof that they should be found guilty of at least neglegence.
Just because you provide a warhouse where people can trade goods, if the goods are mostly stolen property, and you know that, you are in deep shit.
I'm posting AC because this will likely get modded down, but this is the way it is people.
A couple of months or so, Buma/Stemra's spokesman had a media interview, in which he said that they would not be suing consumers until there was a good commercial music download option for consumers in the Netherlands. Apparently, at that time they felt (correctly) that the country would be in an uproar if they started suing consumers over trading.
So if they started suing now, that would be in direct contradiction of their earlier statements (and it would be extremely unpopular, I could even see it leading to a law that makes music sharing over the Internet explicitly legal). In current law, downloading is legal, uploading is not.
And anyway, all they could get in a lawsuit is an order for the person to stop sharing, I think, as long as there's no commercial piracy involved.
I believe posters are recognized by their sig. So I made one.
When the VCR came out, the cinematography industry cried out that they would be destroyed. When the TV came out, the redio stations said that this would be their end. When the computers began, people said that paper would stop being used. Nonsese. Istead of trying to defeat the tide, musical industry should embrace mp3 and find a new bussines model. And I think they will, eventually, but not until they squeez the last dollar from this model.
- no sig.
it's liberal Europe? I think that's an oversimplification. What I do think is that the Dutch are all free-traders (no pun intended). Their history is one of free-trade, global trade, and lower regulation.
This history and culture has continually influenced their laws and outlook on new technology. They always seem to be more matter-of-fact and realist when it comes to these issues.
It's an interesting insight into a way in a different culture.
"This isn't a study in computer science, its a study in human behavior"
I wish back in high school that I could have known that, when I was buying records, I was providing the bands I liked with almost no financial support. More than 95% of my purchase price was going straight to one of the most corrupt industries on the planet.
I'm not at all surprised to hear that the Netherlands' version of the RIAA is now going after individual users. The industry has clearly decided that the threat of litigation is about the only thing that's going to keep people buying CD's.
Except for one tiny thing. In the process of trying to scare people, they've made people like me their lifelong enemies. Now, where music is concerned, I have only two ambitions: one is to give the artists I like as much support as possible. And the other is to not give another penny of my money to RIAA labels. Quite simply, the RIAA has a completely different vision of the future than that of music lovers. They want to keep themselves as the middlemen in perpetuity, despite the fact that technology has the potential for making major labels irrelevant.
That's one reason why, as much as I love the iTunes radio store, I would never purchase an album from there that was produced by an RIAA affiliated label.
What people disgusted by RIAA actions need to do is to work hard to educate the public about why the industry does not deserve our support. Music lovers ought to be doing everything possible to starve out the RIAA affiliated labels, and to channel as much of their entertainment dollar directly to artists. And we should especially support artists who are wise enough to help us in this task -- artists who sign with magnatune, or who have a website set up so that they keep the bulk of every purchasing dollar.
I'm generally "Interesting," "Insightful," and even "Funny" here. What the hell happens to me at parties?
However, I don't see how this ruling changes anything. It doesn't matter what is legal where, because people will always find a way to swap files. There are a million peer-to-peer apps, there's IRC, there's UseNet... I cannot see how any ruling in any country is really going to change the way things are, because I cannot see how any nation can actually enforce that ruling. Perhaps that's one of the reasons they didn't rule against it in the Netherlands. How do you stop a country from swapping files? Even the RIAA with its police powers isn't able to do that here.
I'd like to believe that more workable business models will evolve that can exist peacefully with file swapping, but I guess only time will tell.
"To confine our attention to terrestrial matters would be to limit the human spirit." -Stephen Hawking
This is obviously off topic, but I need help...
As a retail store owner of a punk rock music shop, I really want to open a section (and eventually make it my only section) of "Non RIAA Punk Rock music." It should be bands of national scale, doesn't have to be popular bands, and definitely shouldn't be radio or MTV bands.
Does anyone have a link or knowledge of which labels are not RIAA linked? The distributors have no idea...
Heavy taxation is the best thing for helping the free market or the Austrian-libertarian/anarchocapitalist idealism. When you tax an item, overregulate it, or even criminalize the use of said item, you create a black market. The black market has no taxes, and is generally cheaper to use than the white market -- in some cases its the only way to get said item or service.
When an item is taxed, it forces people to pay more. If people think they are paying too much, they will find a way around it.
I say lets raise all taxes on every item 100%. Then find your way around it. I know people in Canada who find numerous ways around the CD tax, and while its illegal and I don't recommend breaking local laws or avoiding taxes, its good to see that taxes almost always have negative effects on production and sales.
Craftsman Tools can not be held liable when people drive around town throwing hammers at innocent bystanders. The judge was quoted as saying "just because a tool can be used for something illegal, doesn't mean it encourages illegal activity and should be held liable for such activity."
I was really sick and tired of buying a CD and having to skip most "non-advertised" songs. What da hell?! i don't listen to radio much either, mostly in the car, but the commercials HAVE gotten annoying.
What I have found more enjoyable is actually internet radio. there seems to be plenty of choices, and non-stop supply of music. There are less and less free stations now, but even if you pay $10 or so per month and have a month of music to enjoy it still beats buying 4 cds and getting sick of them in a week.
I also can't wait to see how the situation develops with sirius and xm radio. they sound promising. my friend has xm, very happy with it. but i wonder - how long would it take for it to also become bloated with commercials as well? hey, once enough people listen to it, it'll be extremely tempting for the stations to go the ad route...
This just in:
From The Associated Press:
Dec 19, 10:45 AM EST
Record Industry May Not Subpoena Providers
By TED BRIDIS
Associated Press Writer
WASHINGTON (AP) -- A federal appeals court on Friday rejected efforts by the recording industry to compel the nation's Internet providers to identify subscribers accused of illegally distributing music online.
In a substantial setback for the industry's controversial anti-piracy campaign, the three-judge panel from the U.S. Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia overturned a ruling by the trial judge to enforce a copyright subpoena.
U.S. District Judge John D. Bates had approved use of the subpoenas, forcing Verizon Communications Inc. to turn over names and addresses for at least four Internet subscribers. Since then, Verizon has identified dozens of its other subscribers to music industry lawyers.
The appeals court said one of the arguments by the Recording Industry Association of America "borders upon the silly," rejecting the trade group's claims that Verizon was responsible for downloaded music because such data files traverse its network.
Verizon had challenged the constitutionality of the subpoenas under the 1998 Digital Millennium Copyright Act.
The law, passed years before downloading music over peer-to-peer Internet services became popular, compels Internet providers to turn over the names of suspected pirates upon subpoena from any U.S. District Court clerk's office. A judge's signature is not required. Critics contend judges ought to be more directly involved.
Verizon had argued at its trial that Internet providers should only be compelled to respond to such subpoenas when pirated music is stored on computers that providers directly control, such as a Web site, rather than on a subscriber's personal computer.
In his ruling, the trial judge wrote that Verizon's interpretation "makes little sense from a policy standpoint," and warned that it "would create a huge loophole in Congress' effort to prevent copyright infringement on the Internet."
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Racism is absolutely not accepted in Europre. Of course in many regions there just cannot be racism because everyone is of the same ethnicity. But where it occurs, it's a big no-no for the majority of the population.
Also note that there are still many people living in Europe who experienced national socialism first-hand; others have to deal with the fact that they work for some high-tech factory that has a high reputation worldwide now, but used to build weapons for Hitler 60 years ago. They know their history, and they're able to learn from past mistakes. There are _far_ fewer Nazis in Europe than in the USA today.
but what do i know, i'm just a model.
Who the hell modded this crap up?
Pornography is not as much of a problem in Europe because it is accepted. I guess the same is true of racism.
Yes, pornography is generally more accepted in Europe; I guess we just have less of a problem with seeing people having sex. Note that the same cannot be said of the whole of Europe - here in the UK, after all, we're rather more Victorian about the whole thing.
Racism, on the other hand, is most certainly not tolerated. Yes, there are fringe groups, like the British National Party here in the UK, or the hard-line Combat 18 (note that the story is 4 years old), they are not representative of Europeans as a whole, any more than the KKK is representative of Americans as a whole.
France has in recent years has had massive anti-semitic rallies.
Proof please, as I don't remember hearing about them. Also, I've been on a few rallies and marches in my time, the largest being an anti-racism one organised by the Anti Nazi League. About 150,000 people marched through London on that one; I think that qualifies as a "massive" rally.
I find it incredible that you've been modded up insightful for this. Sure, Europe has its problems, but from what I see reported in the news, for the most part they're no worse than similar ones in the US.
It's official. Most of you are morons.
>>However, thanks to this, we now have Nixon as an example of how antisemitism in the US is as bad as it has been in Europe (where French citizens quite happily turned in Jewish neighbors to their new Nazi overlords)
Do you honestly believe that, had the US been occupied by Hitler, those 40 millions Americans who lapped up anti-semitic propagande in the 1930s would not have done the same? Or that leading American industrialists who expressed Nazi sympathies and anti-semitic opinions in private would not have collaborated? It was luck and the Atlantic ocean that saved American Jews, not the inherent superiority of the US citizenry.
>> Show me one single Jewish person who has been killed (or even assaulted) as a result of Farrakhan's adolf-immitations.
Farrakhan is a symptom of widespread antisemitism in the US. Did you know that according to an Anti-Defamation League poll in 2002, 17% of Americans hold "unquestionably anti-semitic views" (up from 12% in 1998). That rises to 35% among african-americans. The NY Post reported last week that number of anti-semitic attacks in New York City TRIPLED in the last year. True, nobody has died -- yet. But remember back in 1999 there was a gun attack on a Jewish kindergarten. We're not talking about mere graffiti.
>>Funny you should mention the word "deny", as you are engaging in a variation of holocaust denial.
That is one of most insulting things ever hurled at me on slashdot. To deny the holocaust would be to deny the murder of my grandfather's entire family. Nothing I have written has denied the existence of anti-semitism in Europe. I'm just trying to point out that it's not a European disease. It affects the US just as much, and it's about time Americans realised it.
The author of this post asserts his moral rights.