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Kazaa Ruled Legal in The Netherlands
DreamerFi writes "Developers of Kazaa cannot be held liable for the way people use their software, the Dutch Supreme Court has ruled. The dutch version of the RIAA, BUMA Stemra is now expected to start lawsuits against individuals, following the american lead, according to dutch news channels."
Well d-uh.
Any successful attempt at making code illegal will just turn it into samizdat and speed the adoption of encrypted & anonymous P2P apps (ala FreeNet). It's too bad the recording industry doesn't put as much effort into signing new and original bands as they do fighting to protect their antiquated business model.
Yes, I buy CDs but nothing you'd see on a Top 40 chart, will that make me a criminal one day?
Trolling is a art,
So why would it work there?
MABASPLOOM!
Nuff said.
Because of all this shit over music I have stoped buying. I use to try out stuff on the old napster (tells you how long ago that was) and if I liked I would get the CD, but now that the RIAA (and co.) has made it clear they don't want my busness, I have stoped, stoped listening and stoped buying. And the radio music stations have way to many comercials to be enjoyable. I have moved on to talk radio, and I have to say I think I enjoy talk radio more, and there seams to be far less comercials then music radio. Good by music, hello talk.
Ah, it's refreshing to see some sanity in the courts, even if it is on another continent. If the courts blame kazaa for what its users do, it would logically follow that we'd have to blame gun manufacturers for the actions of bank robbers, blame car manufacturers for the crimes of people involved in hit-and-run accidents, and blame alcohol manufacturers for the stupid things drunk people do.
WARNING: If accidentally read, induce vomiting.
I use Kazaa to find the music that the recording industry refuses to sell online OR in CD stores. If they are so concerned about losing revenue, why don't they just sell the music?
The dutch version of the RIAA, BUMA Stemra is now expected to start lawsuits against individuals, following the american lead
It's about time some judge realizes that P2P is perfectly legal. If there is illegal activity going on (piracy), then it is up to the authorities/owners to find out who the perps are, and do what they feel is necessary.
Hopefully, if these RIAA-led anti-piracy campaigns are successful, it will be more ammo against the DMCA. After all, why would that unconstitutional law be necessary if they have a more effective means of enforcing their copyrights?
What isn't legal in the Netherlands?
My blog | My webcomic | My other webcomic
Let's say I use Quickbooks to bookkeep an illegal betting service at my school. Is someone going to sue Quicken Software (or whoever the mfg is) for my use of their software. NO! If anythingthey should allow programmers and designers to learn from the program and develop new ideas on future software. The fact the KaZaa had to be established on the Island of Vanuatu, where corporate laws are far different form US or other westernized economies is ridiculous! Let business flourish! As Adam Sith would say: "laissez faire!"
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Since the ARTISTS that produce the music get a small share of the sales, I'm beginning to think that the RIAA and its like are just a means to keep lawyers employed. Wait....was that a news flash or did everybody else already know that?
You mean 12-year-old girls? This isn't going to help either, the only way to solve the p2p piracy thing is to provide better ways for the customers to get music without them feeling robbed, buying a CD with 1 good song, and 10 fillers doesn't make the customer feel right at all, so customers use p2p instead.
Napster and iTunes are good steps on the way, lots of people are buying music through them instead of the old, above mensioned ways.
The IT section color scheme sucks.
So kudos to the court, who are dead right. Kazaa should not be a special case and made illegal, just like video recorders, DVD burners, CD burners, cassette recorders, MP3 player/recorders, codecs, etc etc. The music industry reply is that the files could easily be filtered to stop copyrighted material from being shared. I beg to know how they propose to find out from an MP3 file whether it is copyrighted; the "copyright" bit in the files is removeable so that's not a solution is it?
Conversion Rate Optimisation French / English consultant
We (the dutch) pay an extra tax (something like 50 cents) on each blank CD, and up to 1.50 on blank dvd's.... It really gets my heartrate going when I think about that.
Furthermore, this decision only affects distribution from The Netherlands. The advocat general briefly touches US, UK and German law, but does not draw any conclusions from this.
So, also regarding the recent decisions in California, Kazaa will probably live as a programme.
However, the BUMA/STEMRA (dutch equivalents of the US RIAA) will probably start now with lawsuits to individual end-users who offer large amounts of files on-line. A lot of case law with respect to tort by offering infriningement illegal information on-line is already available, so the real ground battle can start. Bring in the grunts (copyright lawyers, that is).
They blatently prodice a place/means for people to illegally share copyrighted material. this is its major purpose, and the kazaa developers know that.
If you know about a crime, and you don't do anything about it (or at least try to) you are breaking the law in many places. The fact that Kazaa has not ever tried to limit the music swapping is proof that they should be found guilty of at least neglegence.
Just because you provide a warhouse where people can trade goods, if the goods are mostly stolen property, and you know that, you are in deep shit.
I'm posting AC because this will likely get modded down, but this is the way it is people.
It occurs to me, that while suing individuals is far more cumbersome than just getting the billion dollar check from Kazaa, getting good at collecting from individuals is better business in the long run since there are so many of them.
I mean, done right, this could be an endless source of money for Kazaa.
All interpreted languages are abstractions over Lisp
A couple of months or so, Buma/Stemra's spokesman had a media interview, in which he said that they would not be suing consumers until there was a good commercial music download option for consumers in the Netherlands. Apparently, at that time they felt (correctly) that the country would be in an uproar if they started suing consumers over trading.
So if they started suing now, that would be in direct contradiction of their earlier statements (and it would be extremely unpopular, I could even see it leading to a law that makes music sharing over the Internet explicitly legal). In current law, downloading is legal, uploading is not.
And anyway, all they could get in a lawsuit is an order for the person to stop sharing, I think, as long as there's no commercial piracy involved.
I believe posters are recognized by their sig. So I made one.
so if i understand correctly, the avaerage Dutch citizen will be bothered by hc l33cher d00dz spending their holidays in the netherlands, in addition to the people from all over europe who visit amsterdam for buying dope, getting an abortion or looking at bestiality?
..strangeloop.
When the VCR came out, the cinematography industry cried out that they would be destroyed. When the TV came out, the redio stations said that this would be their end. When the computers began, people said that paper would stop being used. Nonsese. Istead of trying to defeat the tide, musical industry should embrace mp3 and find a new bussines model. And I think they will, eventually, but not until they squeez the last dollar from this model.
- no sig.
I wish back in high school that I could have known that, when I was buying records, I was providing the bands I liked with almost no financial support. More than 95% of my purchase price was going straight to one of the most corrupt industries on the planet.
I'm not at all surprised to hear that the Netherlands' version of the RIAA is now going after individual users. The industry has clearly decided that the threat of litigation is about the only thing that's going to keep people buying CD's.
Except for one tiny thing. In the process of trying to scare people, they've made people like me their lifelong enemies. Now, where music is concerned, I have only two ambitions: one is to give the artists I like as much support as possible. And the other is to not give another penny of my money to RIAA labels. Quite simply, the RIAA has a completely different vision of the future than that of music lovers. They want to keep themselves as the middlemen in perpetuity, despite the fact that technology has the potential for making major labels irrelevant.
That's one reason why, as much as I love the iTunes radio store, I would never purchase an album from there that was produced by an RIAA affiliated label.
What people disgusted by RIAA actions need to do is to work hard to educate the public about why the industry does not deserve our support. Music lovers ought to be doing everything possible to starve out the RIAA affiliated labels, and to channel as much of their entertainment dollar directly to artists. And we should especially support artists who are wise enough to help us in this task -- artists who sign with magnatune, or who have a website set up so that they keep the bulk of every purchasing dollar.
I'm generally "Interesting," "Insightful," and even "Funny" here. What the hell happens to me at parties?
However, I don't see how this ruling changes anything. It doesn't matter what is legal where, because people will always find a way to swap files. There are a million peer-to-peer apps, there's IRC, there's UseNet... I cannot see how any ruling in any country is really going to change the way things are, because I cannot see how any nation can actually enforce that ruling. Perhaps that's one of the reasons they didn't rule against it in the Netherlands. How do you stop a country from swapping files? Even the RIAA with its police powers isn't able to do that here.
I'd like to believe that more workable business models will evolve that can exist peacefully with file swapping, but I guess only time will tell.
"To confine our attention to terrestrial matters would be to limit the human spirit." -Stephen Hawking
"She received third degree burns over more than 5% of her body"
Yet, 99.99% were able to consume this coffee, of the same temperature, without this problem. Maybe they didn't spill it on their genitals!
"simply because McDs stored the coffee at a temperature far higher than was necessary. And they knew it was dangerously high"
No, it was necessary (the customers prefer it this way), and not dangerous. Millions of cups drank, no problem.
Yes, it is dangerous if you do something stupid with it, but so is everything. Did you know you can suffocate on those paper McDonald's napkins if you stuff them down your throat and nostrils? Just like you can get burns from pouring hot coffee on your 'nads.
The problem with these frivolous suits is that Person A is made to pay for the actions/guilt of Person B.
Although I don't think the RIAA will be able to make Kazaa (etc.) liable for the downloading (hopefully), it's probably only a matter of time before the downloaders themselves start suing: "They made it easy for me! It's not my fault! Personal responsibility, what's that?"
When we remember we are all mad, the mysteries disappear and life stands explained.
Mark Twain
Yeees. He is an evasive little guy. (*Smith)
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This is obviously off topic, but I need help...
As a retail store owner of a punk rock music shop, I really want to open a section (and eventually make it my only section) of "Non RIAA Punk Rock music." It should be bands of national scale, doesn't have to be popular bands, and definitely shouldn't be radio or MTV bands.
Does anyone have a link or knowledge of which labels are not RIAA linked? The distributors have no idea...
your sig: does that imply that I shouldn't think backwards?
Hammer of Truth
Heavy taxation is the best thing for helping the free market or the Austrian-libertarian/anarchocapitalist idealism. When you tax an item, overregulate it, or even criminalize the use of said item, you create a black market. The black market has no taxes, and is generally cheaper to use than the white market -- in some cases its the only way to get said item or service.
When an item is taxed, it forces people to pay more. If people think they are paying too much, they will find a way around it.
I say lets raise all taxes on every item 100%. Then find your way around it. I know people in Canada who find numerous ways around the CD tax, and while its illegal and I don't recommend breaking local laws or avoiding taxes, its good to see that taxes almost always have negative effects on production and sales.
The problem was that *that* particular pot of coffee was several tens of degrees *hotter* than McDonald's specifies, and that restaurant had had several other complaints before. So it isn't the same coffee that is served for most of the chain. Coffee hot enough to disfigure and burn (most isn't) shouldn't have been served in the first place.
will that make me a criminal one day?
grub
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will you tell us that you're o.k.?
You've been a
you've been a smooth criminal.
Craftsman Tools can not be held liable when people drive around town throwing hammers at innocent bystanders. The judge was quoted as saying "just because a tool can be used for something illegal, doesn't mean it encourages illegal activity and should be held liable for such activity."
Don't forget the frivolous McDonald's suit: a lady spilled hot coffee on her own lap, and she sued McDonald's over it and won in court
Once again, Ms. Information (heh) raises its ugly head. Check the Journal for some links and info.
"Please save us some time and handcuff yourself before we get there."
The East Point Georgia Police department has made arresting yourself easy with thier Citizen's self arrest form.
All you pirates head here to turn yourself in
Quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est
I was really sick and tired of buying a CD and having to skip most "non-advertised" songs. What da hell?! i don't listen to radio much either, mostly in the car, but the commercials HAVE gotten annoying.
What I have found more enjoyable is actually internet radio. there seems to be plenty of choices, and non-stop supply of music. There are less and less free stations now, but even if you pay $10 or so per month and have a month of music to enjoy it still beats buying 4 cds and getting sick of them in a week.
I also can't wait to see how the situation develops with sirius and xm radio. they sound promising. my friend has xm, very happy with it. but i wonder - how long would it take for it to also become bloated with commercials as well? hey, once enough people listen to it, it'll be extremely tempting for the stations to go the ad route...
This just in:
From The Associated Press:
Dec 19, 10:45 AM EST
Record Industry May Not Subpoena Providers
By TED BRIDIS
Associated Press Writer
WASHINGTON (AP) -- A federal appeals court on Friday rejected efforts by the recording industry to compel the nation's Internet providers to identify subscribers accused of illegally distributing music online.
In a substantial setback for the industry's controversial anti-piracy campaign, the three-judge panel from the U.S. Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia overturned a ruling by the trial judge to enforce a copyright subpoena.
U.S. District Judge John D. Bates had approved use of the subpoenas, forcing Verizon Communications Inc. to turn over names and addresses for at least four Internet subscribers. Since then, Verizon has identified dozens of its other subscribers to music industry lawyers.
The appeals court said one of the arguments by the Recording Industry Association of America "borders upon the silly," rejecting the trade group's claims that Verizon was responsible for downloaded music because such data files traverse its network.
Verizon had challenged the constitutionality of the subpoenas under the 1998 Digital Millennium Copyright Act.
The law, passed years before downloading music over peer-to-peer Internet services became popular, compels Internet providers to turn over the names of suspected pirates upon subpoena from any U.S. District Court clerk's office. A judge's signature is not required. Critics contend judges ought to be more directly involved.
Verizon had argued at its trial that Internet providers should only be compelled to respond to such subpoenas when pirated music is stored on computers that providers directly control, such as a Web site, rather than on a subscriber's personal computer.
In his ruling, the trial judge wrote that Verizon's interpretation "makes little sense from a policy standpoint," and warned that it "would create a huge loophole in Congress' effort to prevent copyright infringement on the Internet."
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It's important to note that while MCD was guilty of serving a product unfit for consumption, the woman's settlement was lowered because she was a dumbass for trying to drink it in her car. In other words, if she had spilled a normal cup of coffee or a cold soda, she would have received nothing.
Bill Clinton: Pimp we can believe in. - The Shirt!!!
Was it created within the last 70something years?
If the answer to that question is "yes" then there is a very good chance that the file is copyrighted. A creator has a copyright on his/her creation the moment it is created, whether he/she chooses to register the copyright or not (though registering the copyright makes it easier to defend against infringement). That copyright lasts until the government says it expires (a period that is WAY too long in my opinion), or until the creator decides to put his/her creation into the public domain, whichever comes first.
I'm willing to bet almost everything out on all of the P2P networks is copyrighted. It is probably safest to assume that it is. So, now it is up to you the user to see if you are allowed to make use of the probably copyrighted content by doing some research on the creator to find out if he/she has granted a license (such as a Creative Commons License) for others to freely copy the work or perhaps has entered the creation into the public domain. If this is the case, then please, by all means, download the file. If not, then I recommend leaving it alone and certainly not distributing it unless you want to face a case of copyright infringement.
So, instead of having the **AA or whatever organization police you, how about policing yourself a little bit? Do some research and find out if you actually do have the right to copy the material. Contact the creator, ask for permission, look at their homepage, etc.
Disclaimer: I do NOT agree with the actions of the **AA and similar organizations, I think that the term for copyright is WAY too long (in fact, I am giving my own creations, mostly photographs, a maximum 20 year limit before I put them in the public domain), I think the laws need to be changed, and I think that the penalties for copyright infringement are WAY too severe. Also, use of the word "you" above is not necessarily referring to the parent poster, but to anyone that it applies to. No offense intended. Also also, at least, this is how I interpret copyright law...please please please correct me if I am wrong.
I am a content creator and I respect the copyrights of others just as I hope they respect my copyrights. If I want to give something away for free, then feel free to use it however you like, but if I choose to restrict the use of my creations then please respect that, and if you don't like it, create your own.
Just my humble opinion of course, however, it seems that many people think that "copyrighted" means "owned by the **AA/etc" when it means "owned by whoever created it for a limited time before being returned to the public domain" (at least, in my understanding...again, please correct me if I have misinterpreted "copyright")
cheers. :-)
"Empathise with stupidity, and you're halfway to thinking like an idiot." - Iain M. Banks
"Adam Sith" is apparently a character from the Knights of the Old Republic game from Lucas Arts. I hadn't heard this quote, though.
Ph-nglui mglw'nafh Gates M'dna wgah'nagl fhtagn.
If you are keen to read the Dutch court ruling or the Dutch News Channel, you can use World Lingo Translator.
Today's vices may be tomorrow's virtues.
Well, the plan on letting people who have just smuggled up to 3 Kg of white powder go without a warrant was nothing but a 'luchtballon' (en: hot-air balloon) 'let up' by the clueless minister Donner of the dutch ministry of justice.
He got flamed so bad, that this ridiculous plan will never see the light of day.
Wenn ist das Nunstueck git und Slotermeyer? Ja! Beiherhund das Oder die Flipperwaldt gersput.
Racism is absolutely not accepted in Europre. Of course in many regions there just cannot be racism because everyone is of the same ethnicity. But where it occurs, it's a big no-no for the majority of the population.
Also note that there are still many people living in Europe who experienced national socialism first-hand; others have to deal with the fact that they work for some high-tech factory that has a high reputation worldwide now, but used to build weapons for Hitler 60 years ago. They know their history, and they're able to learn from past mistakes. There are _far_ fewer Nazis in Europe than in the USA today.
but what do i know, i'm just a model.
Sorry. Mods, feel free to mod that one into oblivion.
P.S. even more off-topic, is anyone else getting a lot of "500 Internal Server Error" messages from yro.slashdot.org?
"Empathise with stupidity, and you're halfway to thinking like an idiot." - Iain M. Banks
A great day for justice, and i hope other European countries take note (especially my mine - UK).
Does anyone else think "The right to bare arms" was actually ment to include all arms - such as arms against corporate control - i.e software & hardware tools and filesharing apps to allow freedom of information and speech and the ability to reverse engineer freely? The whole point to that right was to prevent a dictatorship, or a big-brother state, and those tools are as vital as guns in that respect.
This comment does not represent the views or opinions of the user.
Who the hell modded this crap up?
Pornography is not as much of a problem in Europe because it is accepted. I guess the same is true of racism.
Yes, pornography is generally more accepted in Europe; I guess we just have less of a problem with seeing people having sex. Note that the same cannot be said of the whole of Europe - here in the UK, after all, we're rather more Victorian about the whole thing.
Racism, on the other hand, is most certainly not tolerated. Yes, there are fringe groups, like the British National Party here in the UK, or the hard-line Combat 18 (note that the story is 4 years old), they are not representative of Europeans as a whole, any more than the KKK is representative of Americans as a whole.
France has in recent years has had massive anti-semitic rallies.
Proof please, as I don't remember hearing about them. Also, I've been on a few rallies and marches in my time, the largest being an anti-racism one organised by the Anti Nazi League. About 150,000 people marched through London on that one; I think that qualifies as a "massive" rally.
I find it incredible that you've been modded up insightful for this. Sure, Europe has its problems, but from what I see reported in the news, for the most part they're no worse than similar ones in the US.
It's official. Most of you are morons.
Europe this, Europe that. Please people, will you understand one thing. THERE IS NO SUCH PLACE AS EUROPE. Well, maybe that's a little extreme but what I mean is this: there is no such place as Europe to which you can make sweeping generalisations as you might be able to with a monocultural nation like the USA. Instead you have about 50 different countries with their own cultures, histories, and languages. What does the average Irishman, Romanian, Greek or Norwegian have in common with each other that they don't equally share with many other countries around the world?
So when you say "Europe just recognizes the dangers of letting Jews get too much power", who are you talking about? There is a perception in the US that because of the horrific anti-semitism seen in the past in many European countries, any anti-semitic activity in Europe is a sympton of some continental malaise. American anti-semitism, though, is some kind of aberration rather than a reflection of the national character.
Well, can I let you into a secret - the US has a long and proud tradition of antisemitism too. Many businesses, clubs and universities excluded Jews or restricted their numbers well into the late 1930s. That was a time when 40 million americans -- one third of the US population -- listened in to Father Charles' Coughlin's rabidly antisemitic radio show. Both the Bushes and the Kennedys made their fortunes by doing business with the Nazis - GWB's grandad even laundered thier money after the US declared war on them. Henry Ford was an especially active anti-semite, running a blatantly anti-semitic newspaper and writing a book called "The International Jew: The World's Foremost Problem." He accepted a medal from Hitler in 1938. Thomas Edison thought Jews should stick to the arts and stay out of industry: "I wish they would all stop making money", he said. And it didn't stp after WWII either. Tapes released by the National Archives show the extent of Nixon's anti-semitism ("generally speaking you can't trust the bastards"..."most Jews are disloyal"). Perhaps it's not surprising that in a country where blacks were denied civil rights until the 1960s, other ethnic groups were also discriminated against. The Klan was antisemitic as well, remember.
Whereas most European countries have tried to face up to and come to terms with their anti-semitic past, the US has airbrushed its own history of anti-Jewish discrimination right out of history. As a result, when Jews are attacked in France, the US immediately blames it on inherent European anti-semitism for which all Europeans should feel ashamed -- even though the cast majority of recent attacks have been perpetrated by recent Muslim immigrants who know nothing of pogroms and mein kampf. When Louis Farrakhan blames the holocaust on the Jews, though, America's soul remains spotless.
Which is more unhealthy, to deny that a problem exists, or to admit it and set about finding a solution?
The author of this post asserts his moral rights.
Kazaa, and other truly decentralised p2p software clients have no control over what what files pass through the network.
Unlike napster 1, who provided the central server for passing on who was sharing what, kazaa have NO ability to tell what is being shared.
Napster were the warehouse owners; kazaa are more like warehouse builders, who then sell them on to other people.
They don't know what infringements are being made, and don't want to. They join the long list of people who provide a tool with legitimate and illegitmate uses, like lockpick makers, warehouse builders, or video players with a record button.
And if you argue that p2p has no legitimate uses, I point you to bittorrent, that is regularly used to distribute large files. I also use emule to grab game demos or patches, both legal downloads.
Remember kids, it's all fun and games until someone commits wholesale galactic genocide.
American bigots think Europeans have a huge racism problem, European bigots think Americans have a huge racism problem. Classical racism is being replaced by bigotry disguised as political correctness nowadays.
NGOs make clear that the US does not compile statistics on racism incidents that allow fair comparisons with the EU member state reports on that subject. European racist groups usually have their websites in the US because the legislators in Europe are more oppressive as far as hate speech is concerned.
The US refuses cooperation with the Dutch government to trace IP numbers of Dutch users of racist websites in the US. Dutch government only targeted two forum websites this year because the other major offenders were all in the US.
The observed increase in incidents (reported on by CNN a number of months ago) is btw. 1) anti-muslim by the natives, 2) "anti-semitism" by the muslim minority, and 3) racism directed against native Dutchmen (which has quadrupled over the last year).
So, what exactly is the difference between Kazaa, and the others, ie Napster?
How come Kazaa always seems to get away with what they're doing?
Do they have a different architecture or what?
Will code a sig generator for food
Since when do they have something that's illegal in the Netherlands :p.
The characters you've come up with to use as our "proud" tradition are all people whose political opinions most Americans don't give a damn about. Henry Ford? He should have stuck to making cars. The same goes with Edison and his inventions. Nixon? We impeached him because we found out he was a crook, remember? Louis Farrakhan? I don't even know if his own race takes him seriously, let alone any others. Anyone with half a mind wouldn't listen to these extremist opinions. The 1930s, eh? Not exactly representative or our time. Remember, it was thirty years later when African-Americans were struggling with civil rights battles. I'm damn proud of how far it has gotten them, too, though there is still a lot of work to be done. Everyone has people in their culture who have unpleasant opinions of other races and religions. It's just a matter of whether you feel they are important enough to listen to.
~LD "My destiny was to be a karma whore. Then, I forgot my user name."
Of course this is goverment not the courts who laid that down and like in the US those two are supposed to be seperate. Also like the US it is hardly unheard of for the courts to shoot down the goverment.
So I wouldn't say it is to different from the US. Not the same but not to different either. Think differences between say california texas and new york rather then say US vs Cuba.
MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
just because you pay for it doesn't mean you don't get the ads! Am I the only one who's just amazed at the amount of ads we are force-fed before the movie starts in a movie theater? I was fine with previews of movies to come (after all, it's interesting and relevant), but some on! right now if the movie starts at 5, that means that at 5 there is a 20 minute block of commercials, and the actual movie starts at 5:20. and if I see a shaving cream commercial at 5:10 (when i really should be watching a movie), I really wonder what I'm paying for there.
Hey, what about magazines? every other page is a huge ad for something in most of the magazines out there. Therefore paid-for doesn't really imply "ad-free", and that's why i think we'll soon see services such as XM populated with ads as well
Nixon never was impeached.
So by your reasoning, it would be perfectly acceptable for toy manufacturers to infuse some rare disease into their products that is non-contagious to 99.9% of the populous, but may permanently disfigure some of those unfortunate enough to scratch the surface and be infected by the virus. Sure, why not? Why not just add some weapons-grade uranium to the coffee cups, so that they will keep the coffee nice and toasty for the next few millennia, as well?
1) A McD manager *testified* that the coffee was unfit for consumption. I guarantee no one at this location was "consuming it with no problems." It was heated to 180+ degrees F!
2) The issue isn't about the spill at all. As a business owner, you can't place thousands of poisoned-tipped spikes around your facility, then deny blame if someone trips and falls, claiming "She fell herself, we didn't push her."
I'm against frivolous lawsuits as much as the next person, if not more so. But this was just a case where business came before responsibility.
How about I adjust the water heater at my local wal-mart to dispense 200 degree water out of the hot water faucents in the bathrooms?
Hey, if you are too stupid to mix the cold water in with your hot water properly, you deserve to have 3rd-degree burns all over your hands. Ha ha.
What if McDonalds served you a BURGER that burned your lips "off"? "If you're not smart enough to eat a burger, which is supposed to be hot, without burning yourslef, your DNA should be removed from the gene pool.
Read the facts about the case. If they serve coffee 20 degrees hotter than everyone else, that is a big problem.
-Clio
Karma: Bad (mostly from not giving a fuck)
Blog: http://clintjcl.wordpress.com
Well, we're obviously at an impasse here. I would agree that the whole "sue fast food retailers because I'm fat" lawsuits are without merit, as are most recent tobacco lawsuits, but not this particular case.
The toy manufacturer then labels the coffee mentioning this disease, so everyone knows it is there and acts accordingly.
Actually, it would be more accurate if the manufacturer added a label mentioning the possibility of "mild discomfort," while failing to mention the searing pain, lengthy hospital stay, and expensive surgeries. Saying "Warning, contents may be hot" does not quite convey the same meaning as "Warning, contents are unnecessarily hot and may cause rapid melting of the skin and tissue within seconds of contact, causing extreme trauma and permanent disfiguration. Try an apple pie."
Another bad analogy. The coffee was preferred hot.
Again, if 99 people out of 100 said "Yes, please amputate my left foot with a dull cleaver" and you proceeded to amputate the left feet of all 100 people, you should expect at least one lawsuit. People, in general, are stupid.
People do want their coffee hot. McDonald's lost the suit and were ordered to reduce the temps of their coffee. Do you find McD's coffee to be *cold* now? No? You mean they lowered the temps by at least 25 degrees F and 99% of the people can't tell the difference? Why was it so hot to begin with? Oh, because of the 3 people who like to buy coffee, drive 45 minutes to work, then drink it, expecting it to still scald their tongues complained that it was only luke-warm? Well, let's endanger our entire customer base to please this vocal minority, by all means.
[another analogy, as I seem to like them =P]
If I ordered a hot meal from a restaurant and the waiter warned me "that skillet may be hot," I would have no grounds to complain if I touched the pan with my finger and got a blister. I agree with that. But could I complain if it was so hot that I spontaneously burst into flames simply by leaning over my plate to grab the salt? I think so...
.. must.. not.. reply.. Ahhhh!
One important fact is that the McDonald's coffee, if it ever was "too hot", is still "too hot". You will STILL get 3rd degree burns if you put it in your crotch. It just takes a little longer to do it. Anything is dangerous if you choose to do something stupid with it.
That's the point, NO YOU WONT! The coffee is now served at a temperature that, yes, will burn your skin if you spill it, but it will lose heat at a fast enough rate to NOT cause SERIOUS burns. Yes, it will hurt. Yes, you will need to apply some Aloe Vera gel. Yes, it will be sore for days and/or weeks. NO, YOU WILL NOT REQUIRE EXTENSIVE RECONSTRUCTIVE SURGERY AND SKIN GRAFTS!
The point, always ignored, is that if you choose to do something stupid it is your own fault.
Ignored no longer! Addressed here! I agree! (with a caveat) If you choose to do something stupid without regards to the normal worse-case scenario, it is your own fault.
Here are some examples of things that may get you killed:
1) Looking down the barrel of a gun to see if it is loaded: STUPID.
2) Kicking a rabid pit-bull in the face and running away: STUPID.
3) Opening you mailbox: NOT STUPID.
Now 1 and 2 are obvious. They fall under your "it's you own fault." category. I agree. But what about 3? What if there is an explosive in your mailbox. Or a deadly spider/snake? Are these people "doing something stupid?" No. Under normal circumstances, opening your mailbox is not a dangerous act. Millions of people do it everyday. You've done it thousands of times before. You may willingly accept the possibility that you might get a splinter, or stub your toe, or receive a nasty chain letter, but not the possibility of death. THAT'S NOT NORMAL. Just like putting a cup of hot coffee between your legs. You may willingly accept the possibility of spilling it and scalding your skin or ruining your pants, but not the possibility of having your skin and tissue melted and chemically fused to the seat of your car. THAT'S NOT NORMAL!
See the trend here?
Then I can smoke really good inexpensive pot and fileshare all I want. Moreover I wouldn't have to live in this nutso country (USA) as it dumbs-down its populus and careens into a fear-drive death-spiral. Woohoo!
-- thinkyhead software and media
When they drank it, it was not 185 degrees.
-Clio
Karma: Bad (mostly from not giving a fuck)
Blog: http://clintjcl.wordpress.com
(Exploding dildos, anyone?)
-Clio
Karma: Bad (mostly from not giving a fuck)
Blog: http://clintjcl.wordpress.com
So.. um... Fuck you. You're wrong. I hope you die of cancer, but only after you watch your mother and children die first. And I hope your children die of 3rd degree burns. And something with a greased yoda doll.
-Clio
Karma: Bad (mostly from not giving a fuck)
Blog: http://clintjcl.wordpress.com
>>However, thanks to this, we now have Nixon as an example of how antisemitism in the US is as bad as it has been in Europe (where French citizens quite happily turned in Jewish neighbors to their new Nazi overlords)
Do you honestly believe that, had the US been occupied by Hitler, those 40 millions Americans who lapped up anti-semitic propagande in the 1930s would not have done the same? Or that leading American industrialists who expressed Nazi sympathies and anti-semitic opinions in private would not have collaborated? It was luck and the Atlantic ocean that saved American Jews, not the inherent superiority of the US citizenry.
>> Show me one single Jewish person who has been killed (or even assaulted) as a result of Farrakhan's adolf-immitations.
Farrakhan is a symptom of widespread antisemitism in the US. Did you know that according to an Anti-Defamation League poll in 2002, 17% of Americans hold "unquestionably anti-semitic views" (up from 12% in 1998). That rises to 35% among african-americans. The NY Post reported last week that number of anti-semitic attacks in New York City TRIPLED in the last year. True, nobody has died -- yet. But remember back in 1999 there was a gun attack on a Jewish kindergarten. We're not talking about mere graffiti.
>>Funny you should mention the word "deny", as you are engaging in a variation of holocaust denial.
That is one of most insulting things ever hurled at me on slashdot. To deny the holocaust would be to deny the murder of my grandfather's entire family. Nothing I have written has denied the existence of anti-semitism in Europe. I'm just trying to point out that it's not a European disease. It affects the US just as much, and it's about time Americans realised it.
The author of this post asserts his moral rights.
This view is certainly not the official point of view of Jewish organizations in Europe I am aware of. It is also not the only view, or even the dominant view, in Israeli newspapers. I have read very different analyses of Israel's situation by Ha'aretz columnists. Are you suggesting they are anti-semitic or don't understand the position of Israel?
If I lived in Israel, I certainly wouldn't be happy with 'friends of Israel' like you.
I am free to dislike Israel's government, Jewish religion, or klezmer music if I want. I live in a democracy and do not need prior permission to express my thoughts as the constitution tells me. Israeli citizens are probably also free to dislike whatever governments or religions they want. The constitution does not allow me to hold jews responsible for any of the above merely because of their 'jewishness', though.
But elderly people don't perceive temperature as well. Or think as fast as us. :)
And remember... 50% of people have a below-100 I.Q.
But on a more serious note, a burger doesn't have a heat-insulating cup around it... So I now realize, in that arena at least, my analogy failed. Coffee has a heat-insulating cup around it, "designed" to keep the heat internalized. Therefore, you cannot [as] accurately perceive the temperature of what is inside it. Until you come in contact with you. At which point you [apparantly] have 2 seconds to get it off before 3rd degree burns.
I myself have stuck my finger in boiling water just to prove that if you do it quick enough it doesn't hurt you [much]. So arguably, I am a moron, and I'm sure some would say there's no argument about it. I'm also a negative karma whore so fuck you and fuck linux!
-Clio
Karma: Bad (mostly from not giving a fuck)
Blog: http://clintjcl.wordpress.com
I have never bought music, and probably never will, it has never interested me. I download an mp3 every once in a blue moon but I listen to it a few times and then it gets filed away and I never hear it again...
Plus, when was the last time anyone got RIAA sponsored music off of kazaa that was actually what they wanted?
Usually it's a blank file, or only the first few seconds, or entirely mislabeled, just a waste of bandwidth...
(abruptly ending my post with no conclusion was an homage to Space Ghost Coast To Coast...cop out, cop out!)
-Clio
Karma: Bad (mostly from not giving a fuck)
Blog: http://clintjcl.wordpress.com
I cna't belive some of you are defending KaZaA. When the code was designed it was obviously for piracy, because that is the only reason it is a popular as it is, and they know it. How stupid do they think we are claiming they had no idea it would be used for this. .... Wait a seccond you guys all end up in this class.
This is also besides the point that KaZaA is a distributor of spyware and annoying-ware, while the RIAA is just trying to protect their investments.
So what happens... all the computers of the world endup full of crap. Companies loose money and so need to make cuts.
In the case of the music industry; music begins to suck as the execs take less chances on non-produced groups.
In the case fo the movie industry; we see less inteligent plots and more distorted rereleases with unnecesary love interests and violence just to tap into every possible audiance.
In the case of software, your jobs get outsourced and for some poetic justice you have brought about your own demise. Unfortunatly allot of others suffer along side of you.
I belive people who are involved in this illeagal activity should be punished to the full extent of the law. And the courts should support it in every way possible and not always worry about popularity. If you have a problem with the system fight the copyright laws at the fedral level, don;t fight the companies.
VENI, VIDI, VICI, DIXI
Netherlands has nothing else to lose, and making Kazaa legal would level the playingfield, what is the Netherlands primary means of support? Tourism, drugs, prostitution, gambling.. Oh yes and farming!! What a combination..
Just say no to license servers!!
-Clio
Karma: Bad (mostly from not giving a fuck)
Blog: http://clintjcl.wordpress.com
I note that the "New York Sues Gun Makers" BBC link features the notorious photo, with the description, "Gun campaigner Charlton Heston has defended current gun law".
Is that a truthful depiction of Heston's stance or spin on BBC's part?
Limbaugh? Limbaugh? Is that you?
-- thinkyhead software and media
Right. There's just Conservatives and Liberals. Big world you live in, AC.
-- thinkyhead software and media
No, you have racism as a problem - black ghettos, far shorter life expectancy, huge numbers of black people in prison. Europe just does not have those problems.
We have poor people in all colors here, including white, and poor people all tend toward a shorter life expectancy than non-poor people who can afford better health care. That's not racism, it's just a sad fact of life.
In the particular case of the shorter life expectancy of blacks, do you know what the number one cause of that is? Black on black violence. It is absolutely not a matter of racism, it's a matter of young black males murdering other young black males.
With regard to prison statistics, here in California the prison population IIRC is about 1/3 hispanic, 1/3 black, and the rest are white and others. The population of California is not 1/3 black (although it might be in some states), and may be 1/3 hispanic or something near that. In LA it's nearly 50% hispanic. In other words, the percentage of hispanics and blacks in prison appears to exceed their percentage in society.
However, that is not racism.
Those people are in prison because they committed crimes, not because of their skin color! The white people in prison are in there for committing crimes, too. The police aren't racist and the courts aren't racist; if I commit a crime and get caught, I'm going to jail; being white isn't going to get me a free ticket out. Nor is my wife, who is not white, going to be wrongly accused and sent to prison because of her skin color. It just doesn't work that way. There was a time in this country when it did, even in my lifetime (I was born in the sixties) in some places, but it just isn't like that now.
That doesn't mean everything is perfect here, but it's not nearly as bad as some Europeans would like to claim.
WRT Israel, to stray off my theme a bit, there are some things that Israel does which I think are ill-considered, and some that are just wrong, but by and large, Israel is fighting for its right to exist. I, too, eventually hope to see a withdrawal to the 1967 borders and a dismantling of the west bank settlements, in exchange for an ironclad peace agreement with all parties. That could bring a just end to the conflict. However, we all need to bear in mind that the only reason Israel holds the occupied territories is because they were captured in the 1967 War, a clearcut war of aggression by Israel's neighbors, whose intent was to exterminate Israel. Things didn't go according to plan, they got their asses completely kicked, and Israel has been holding the occupied territories ever since. I don't blame them. I would, too, for as long as my enemies were still trying to destroy me. If we consider that Israel is a nuclear power and is quite capable of destroying its enemies right now, I think they've acted with a great deal of restraint, overall.
A thing we also need to keep in mind are that the Palestinian refugees are such voluntarily; they fled Israel at the creation of the state, not because they Israelis kicked them out or were going to do anything to them, but because they refused to live under an Israeli government. The ones who stayed have done all right for themselves; the ones who left created their own predicament. The Israelis didn't do it to them, they did it to themselves. Meanwhile, they teach their innocent children to grow up hating Israelis who want nothing but to exist in peace and be left alone. It is not the Israelis who are the criminals here.
The Palestinians will get their own state eventually, in return for peace. But if they violate that peace and send more terrorists into Israel thereafter to blow up innocent people with suicide bombs, I would look the other way no matter what Israel did in retaliation.
Ignorance of Israeli history and hatred of Jews are sources of hatred of Israel, but they're not necessary. I fight bigotry whenever possible, especially against my fellow Jews. But I too hate Sharon and his apocalyptic brinksmanship. I accept the necessity of Israeli annexation of "palestinian" territories when they were used by the Arab coalition to attack Israel. I am disappointed by the Isreali failure to stabilize those areas, and even more by Sharon's provocation of the insane tyrant Arafat at every turn. Israel would do better to militarily confront Syria and Iran, defeating their terrorism sponsorship, than to continue the counterproductive military persecution of the moronic, self-destructive Palestinian people, and their hapless Palestinian neighbors. "Antisemitism" includes Jews *and* Arabs, and the civil war in Israel is dehumanizing everyone in the eyes of the rest of us. And thereby dehumanizing us.
--
make install -not war
Tell the "Turks" (of any Muslim origin) in Europe that there are far fewer problems with racism. And keep pretending that they don't exist when there are as many different races, with the economic and political power to demand power, as there are in the US. As usual, Europe will have to learn the lessons the US created, as we live on the bleeding edge of getting along together.
--
make install -not war
Limbaugh is busy blaming liberals for his drug use.
It just proves that Limbaugh is really a liberal.
He can't take responsibility for his own actions.
Nobody died when Nixon lied.
I'm meeting you half way you stupid hippies!