GM's OnStar System Hacked

Yes, but... by Anonymous Coward · 2003-12-26 05:37 · Score: 5, Funny

When your arm gets cut off in your next auto accident, who will call for the ambulance?!

Re:Yes, but... by Rahga · 2003-12-26 05:48 · Score: 2, Informative

Fortunately, if you can't reach the OnStar button once your arm's been sliced off, they will call you if a collision has been detected.
Re:Yes, but... by vasqzr · 2003-12-26 05:52 · Score: 5, Funny

Not if you've hacked your car and it's not connected to OnStar anymore....
Re:Yes, but... by Rahga · 2003-12-26 08:59 · Score: 4, Funny

You must be the only Counter-Strike player left that doesn't use aimbots.
Re:Yes, but... by epyx · 2003-12-26 10:16 · Score: 5, Interesting

Slightly off topic..
I am a paramedic in Ohio, and the OnStar system called our dispatchers stating there was an accident with ejection, giving us the freeway the guy was on and what exit he was at. I guarantee this guy didn't hit his OnStar button, as he was shot twice and ejected, then subsequently turned into about 6 pieces of hamburger meat as he hit the exit sign.

Apparantly, OnStar calls the police and EMS to an accident when your airbag goes off, and they have a sensor to detect when you're sitting in the driver's seat. Airbag went off, senors in the seat said 'hey wait, no driver no more' and called the correct ambulance company to respond. Kind of neat when you think about it.

Not quite as spectacular as advertised by csnydermvpsoft · 2003-12-26 05:39 · Score: 4, Insightful

All they're doing is modifying the GPS unit to work with a regular computer, while at the same time making the rest of the system (including emergency functions) inoperable. Why not just pay $50 for a basic GPS receiver?

Re:Not quite as spectacular as advertised by Rosco+P.+Coltrane · 2003-12-26 05:57 · Score: 4, Funny

All they're doing is modifying the GPS unit to work with a regular computer, while at the same time making the rest of the system (including emergency functions) inoperable. Why not just pay $50 for a basic GPS receiver?

It seems to me that having wardriving componentry integrated into the car is stylish amd more discreet, so it does have value.

I guess the next step will be to add a 802.11b interface to the engine computer and port Linux to it.

--
"A door is what a dog is perpetually on the wrong side of" - Ogden Nash
Re:Not quite as spectacular as advertised by Tim+Doran · 2003-12-26 06:19 · Score: 2, Informative

This could be FUD on the part of GM. I remember a few years ago, Mazda Canada tried to claim that your warrently would be void if your car was serviced by anyone other than a Mazda dealer. Needless to say, they lost the court challenge.
Re:Not quite as spectacular as advertised by Ioldanach · 2003-12-26 06:24 · Score: 2, Insightful

This could be FUD on the part of GM. I remember a few years ago, Mazda Canada tried to claim that your warrently would be void if your car was serviced by anyone other than a Mazda dealer. Needless to say, they lost the court challenge.

This isn't service, this is a modification to the vehicle. Given the tie-ins the vehicles computer systems have to each other, I'd expect the manufacturer could successfully argue to a judge that hacking into one of the systems is sufficently capable of causing harm to the rest of the vehicles systems that they're justified in voiding the warrantee.
Even being a computer guy, and confident that if I wanted to I could probably execute the instructions without harm to the vehicle, I'd tend to agree. The vehicle might suffer no harm, but now the authorized service centers don't know what's going on inside, so they can't guarantee everything will work as designed.
Re:Not quite as spectacular as advertised by bconway · 2003-12-26 06:33 · Score: 2

This is incorrect. See the Magnusson-Moss Act of 1975.

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Re:Not quite as spectacular as advertised by Otto · 2003-12-26 06:43 · Score: 3, Informative

This is definitely FUD on the part of GM. The Magnusson-Moss Act of 1975 specifically addresses this. Mainly, while modifying your OnStar system may void the warrenty on the OnStar box, they need to be able to *prove* that your modification was the actual cause of whatever is wrong with the car before they can claim that it's not covered under the warrenty.

--
- Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day, but set him on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life.
Re:Not quite as spectacular as advertised by kfg · 2003-12-26 06:47 · Score: 4, Funny

I can see the future of hot rodding now:

"Yeah, I've made some really neat modifications to my Corvette. You should see how fast it compiles a kernel."

KFG
Re:Not quite as spectacular as advertised by d3faultus3r · 2003-12-26 06:47 · Score: 2, Funny

How about a Linux firewall within the firewall of the car. Oh the layers of sweet delicious open source irony.

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Re:Not quite as spectacular as advertised by forkboy · 2003-12-26 07:29 · Score: 4, Insightful

I think GM would have a hard time convincing a judge that your meddling with the car's computer network caused a leak in the coolant or made a ball joint crack. You can't really cause physical defects to a car via the computer.

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Re:Not quite as spectacular as advertised by valkraider · 2003-12-26 07:29 · Score: 2, Interesting

Some volkswagen dealers won't hook their diagnostic computers to your car if you have an aftermarket stereo for just this reason. The stereo computer is connected to the engine computer, and the diagnostic computers can check and set things in the radio system. There are conditions that can exist which cause third party radios to fry diagnostic computers.... I am sure that OnStar components could be just as integrated into the engine computer...
Re:Not quite as spectacular as advertised by operagost · 2003-12-26 07:52 · Score: 2, Funny

That would be a design flaw, wouldn't it? Kind of like tying, say, your web browser to your base OS in such a way that they can't operate apart.
I don't see why the stock radio would have to be present for any technical reason. From what I know as an amateur installer, all that most third-party head units tie into are two 12V lines (one always on, one on with key) and possibly a 12V line to the power antenna. The worst case is that your radio shorts out spectacularily and blows a fuse. Oh yeah, and speakers, but last time I checked those weren't tied to the computer core either.

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Re:Not quite as spectacular as advertised by SEE · 2003-12-26 08:13 · Score: 2, Insightful

Disputing only one thing. GM is nowhere quoted as saying that this may void the warranty on your car, so it isn't "definitely FUD on the part of GM". The OnStar CTO quoted specifically says "From my own perspective -- and GM may feel differently" in the article.

Now, yes, OnStar is a subsidiary of GM and so this guy is, ultimately, working for GM. But this guy really is a fairly minor cog in the GM machine expressing a personal opinion. He quite likely knows nothing about car warranties, and is almost certainly not passing on a message from above.
Re:Not quite as spectacular as advertised by Otto · 2003-12-26 08:32 · Score: 2, Interesting

This is likely because VW's are shit. If it's that easy to fry their diagnostic equipment, then why in the hell don't they put an opto-isolator inline with the diagnostic box's connection and prevent all electrical surges from making it to the diag box? Because they are idiots, that's why.

The radio and OnStar and such is tied together in GM vehicles too, using what is known as a class 2 network. Basically, there's a single wire running to every module in the car, including the radio and the OnStar box (and even the CD Changer if you have a factory one). They all communicate with each other using the J1850 VPW protocol. Yes, I suppose that if you ran some large amount of voltage on that wire, you could conceivably fry the modules, but then the car wouldn't work anymore in a fairly obvious way and so you really wouldn't have a hard time figuring out the problem. Certainly the computer wouldn't figure it out by hooking it up, since there's nothing for it to talk to in the car anymore.

Anyway, this guys mod is pretty basic and doesn't involve tinkering with the "brain" of the OnStar box in any way. All he did was to solder a serial connection onto the GPS board and then disconnect that board from the OnStar system. The GPS doesn't talk to the rest of the car directly, it goes through the brain unit. So nothing this guy does to the GPS can really affect the rest of the vehicle. It's not connected to the rest of the vehicle after he's done with it. Except insofar as it's drawing power from the vehicle.

As always, if you don't know what you're doing, you shouldn't mess with your car's electronics. But if you're inclined to tinker with your car, and you are capable of understanding electronics, it's not really difficult to figure out how this stuff works. This isn't brain surgery here, anyone with rudimentary electronics skills can work it out and get stuff to work correctly. If it was all that complicated, mechanics wouldn't be able to do it (no insult to mechanics intended, they simply have more of a mechanical viewpoint instead of an electronic viewpoint in very general terms).

--
- Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day, but set him on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life.
Re:Not quite as spectacular as advertised by texaport · 2003-12-26 08:54 · Score: 2, Funny

A better hack would be to combine HFD (hand-free driving) with OnStar and The Clapper

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Re:Not quite as spectacular as advertised by wwwillem · 2003-12-26 10:05 · Score: 2, Informative

Anyway, this guys mod is pretty basic and doesn't involve tinkering with the "brain" of the OnStar box in any way. All he did was to solder a serial connection onto the GPS board and then disconnect that board from the OnStar system.

I couldn't figure out from his description whether he did, but it should be possible to tap onto the serial signal and still keep the OnStar connected and functioning. I don't know if that Motorola protocol is a two-directional protocol, but normally with GPS protocols (like with NMEA) the unit just sends it's data over the wires, not listening to any input.

If you take a NMEA GPS unit and you just connect the TxD (from the GPS' point of view) and the GND wires you can read the lat/long with your laptop. Because you don't send any info to the GPS, that TxD signal can go to many listeners. Been there, done that!!

So, in case of the 5V logic of the Motorola OnCore, you maybe have to add one or two diode's, but it should probably be possible to tap off the GPS signal, leaving the OnStar system functioning as it was before.

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Browsers shouldn't have a back button!! It's all about going forward...
Re:Not quite as spectacular as advertised by ColaMan · 2003-12-26 11:41 · Score: 2, Interesting

The worst case is that your radio shorts out spectacularily and blows a fuse

Please, take care when you install radios....

The fun starts if your radio installer is looking for an earth. As an auto electrician, I've seen this all too often....

(Installer probes with test light on original stereo wiring)
"Here's a wire that's earthed, I'll use that!"

Oops. The earth was in fact a wire for the dash lights (to light the light in your factory stereo). Now you blow fuses every time you turn your park lights on, because the radio often gets an earth from the frame or the antenna as well. Or, if you're unlucky, you blow the ($100)dimmer module for your dash lights because the designers didn't think they'd *ever* get a short circuit there.

Now imagine that wire that appears to be earthed is going into your engine or body computer for some mundane function (eg. stereo's on, ok, I'll raise the antenna) and you've got expensive problems.

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Re:Not quite as spectacular as advertised by SpaceLifeForm · 2003-12-26 13:07 · Score: 2, Interesting

That gives a whole new meaning for wardriving. Imagine someone taking control remotely.

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Re:Not quite as spectacular as advertised by JakiChan · 2003-12-26 16:42 · Score: 2, Interesting

There is a good explination of the "Aftermarket Radio Problem" here and it even tells you how to test for it (I think your average dealer would have a voltmeter) and how to repair it if necessary.

I think rather than it being a technological issue it's more of an example of how the manufacturers will do whatever they can to try and generate more income for their mechanics and dealerships, and also how a distreputable dealer will use any excuse to avoid honoring a warranty. On the one hand they go out of their way to make it hard for anyone but the dealer to work on it, and then the dealers are assholes. That's why finding a clued mechanic is always a good idea.

--
"Where quality is like a dead stinking rat - you just can't miss it."

Consider the cost by dacarr · 2003-12-26 05:40 · Score: 5, Insightful

People will pay about US$30-35 to have this and get directions based on numerous things, or they can hack it and find a way to collect the data locally. Most people who hack this aren't going to be the type to need somebody's help for $30/mo though, and many people who can't hack this but can read maps might just have it done.

So in the end, you'll be left with people who have an Onstar box and will rather pay the $30/mo as well as their cellphone bills, blissfully unaware that they can make 911 calls for free on disconnected cellphones.

--
This sig no verb.

DMCA in 5..4..3... by CarrionBird · 2003-12-26 05:41 · Score: 5, Insightful

How long will it take for GM to claim that the Onstar devices are licensed, not sold? Either way, a big part of onstar is the live operator service for emergencies, how do you replace that?

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Re:DMCA in 5..4..3... by I+Like+Swords!!! · 2003-12-26 05:58 · Score: 5, Funny

Use some kind of artificial intelligence! Something like HAL or Elisa...

Wait... Can you imagine the conversation?

You: I need help.
Elisa: Why do you want help?
You: I had an accident.
Elisa: Can you elaborate on that?
You: My car crashed.
Elisa: Why do you say your car crashed?
You: Because, some asshole ran me off the road!
Elisa: Do any other reasons not come to mind?
You: No dammit!
Elisa: You are being a bit negative.
You: Negative? I NEED SOME HELP!
Elisa: Why do you want some help?
You: I TOLD YOU ALREADY!
Elisa: Do you wish to told me?
You: DAMN YOU! JUST GET ME SOME HELP!
Elisa: Oh, i just get you some help.
You: YES! YOU DO THAT!
Elisa: You are sure?
You: YES YOU MORON!
Elisa: You are sure?
You: FOR THE LAST TIME, YES!
Elisa: You are sure?
You: JUST GET ME SOME HELP NOW!!!
Elisa: Can you elaborate on that?
You: *die from your blood curdling*

Ok.... maybe that's not such a good idea after all.

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.unsigged

I *like* OnStar by valkraider · 2003-12-26 05:41 · Score: 4, Informative

I don't want OnStar for directions to restaurants or gas stations.

I like On-Star for being able to have police/rescue know exactly where I am if/when my Airbag deploys. I like On-Star for when my "check engine" light comes on, I press the button, they run a remote diagnostic on my engine's computer, and can tell me how serious the problem is and can call me a tow truck if needed. I like OnStar for being able to unlock my car when I lock my keys in the car (with an infant in the carseat). I like OnStar for being able to track, and stop my car if it is stolen.

That's worth the OnStar subscription... The other stuff is just gravy, which we never really used - so we cancelled....

Re:I *like* OnStar by TopShelf · 2003-12-26 06:00 · Score: 2, Insightful

Since people specifically look for OnStar as a feature when they're buying a car, I'd hardly call that "spying." The sad thing about most people who post knee-jerk screeds about spying fears is that they don't realize something very important...

Nobody really gives a shit what they're doing.

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Re:I *like* OnStar by KrispyKringle · 2003-12-26 06:09 · Score: 2, Insightful

To be fair (I do agree that OnStar is way overpriced and limited in use), he's got a point about some of the features. I've never locked my keys in my car, but the rest aren't really his fault.
Cars get stolen, and OnStar seems like a nice replacement for LoJack. Cars break down, and it's nice to be able to diagnose the problem (though certainly it'd be better to just have the screen in the car display the output itself, so I can call a tow truck myself on my cell phone). And especially the accident alert thing seems useful; if I get in an accident on some country road (and I admit, I have been involved in accidents; it's less a case of stupidity then hitting black ice or driving in dangerous conditions) it'd be really, really nice to have help on the way, even if I am incapacitated. Think about it a bit first, will you, before you reply?
Re:I *like* OnStar by zakezuke · 2003-12-26 06:10 · Score: 3, Insightful

I like On-Star for when my "check engine" light comes on, I press the button, they run a remote diagnostic on my engine's computer, and can tell me how serious the problem is and can call me a tow truck if needed

Diffrent people have diffrent skill levels when it comes to automobiles. I for example have a 1998 sentra, so nothing like onstar, but I do have a CHECK ENGINE light as well. Diffrence is, I know where my access port is, and it blinks the engine code. I'd suspect that's all ONSTAR does for ya, rather then running remote diagnostics, they run local diagnostics and read to you what your engine is telling you.

I like OnStar for being able to unlock my car when I lock my keys in the car

Ok, that is a cool feature. That is actually more spiffy then calling a locksmith. From what I read, the mod is only for reading GPS info to a 3rd party device. I don't know if that would affect the other onstar fuctions. I don't feel that ONSTAR is offering you anything special there... as in you could easily invest in a old pager and attach the vibrate motor to a relay which would open the doors upon calling it's number. I'm sure you could get into the more advanced logic, requiring a specific code.

I like OnStar for being able to track, and stop my car if it is stolen.

Righto... that too is a cool feature! In theory this can be done with any old cell phone wired into your automobile, in theory that is. Getting the police to track down your stolen cellphone is a difficult enough task in it self. I've not actually been able to do this, dispite the fact that they have access to the technology... and the authorization from the owner. When i've talked to cops about it, they've said "we can't do it" or "we don't know how". If the phone were to call 911 if stolen... and relay an automated message "help me, i'm a car, this isn't my driver", this might work.

I should actually research the issue and see the difficulty level in the following

#1: Added cost of an additional mobile phone
#2: Small system who's job it is reading GPS info, sending that info via an easily readable text message or other remote computer readable format.
#3: Relay that info to a site where a human can make the valued judgement of transmiting that info to police or whowever.

That's worth the OnStar subscription...

Hey.... that's cool and fine. ONSTAR(tm) offers a valuable marketable service that is perfectly spiffy. I would never knock anyone who wanted that form of service. I will agree with the hackers that it's cool to beable to mod your ONSTAR(tm) box to read the GPS info to a 3rd party device.

What would be cooler IMHO would be a slightly more subscription free solution, where by you give your car a phone, and have the logic to beable to be flaged as being "stolen" and relay it's location to someone.

--
There is no sanctuary. There is no sanctuary. SHUT UP! There is no shut up. There is no shut up.
Re:I *like* OnStar by bear_phillips · 2003-12-26 06:11 · Score: 2, Informative

Do you really think thieves are that stupid to not disable the system?
Yes. They are that stupid.

--
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Re:I *like* OnStar by MAPA3M · 2003-12-26 06:16 · Score: 5, Funny

I like On-Star for being able to have police/rescue know exactly where I am if/when my Airbag deploys.

GPS:
Please make a left turn.
...
Why did you not make a left turn?
...
Please make a left turn here or I will deploy the airbag repeatedly until a left turn is made
Re:I *like* OnStar by cHiphead · 2003-12-26 06:35 · Score: 3, Funny

I'm more likely to get OnStar now just to let a friend borrow the car and call OnStar and have them lock the doors and turn on teh alarm remotely.

--

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Re:I *like* OnStar by Smidge204 · 2003-12-26 06:44 · Score: 2, Insightful

I believe it.

Let's face it, most theives (like the kind that steal cars and rob candy stores) are not exactly the sharpest hammer in the drawer. I bet they wouldn't be able to tell if a car had OnStar without either previous experience ("Last time I stole one of those I got nailed") or a good looking-over (Which would kinda draw attention to themselves) - so you can bet they won't know where to start trying to disable it.

Of course, it won't stop the "professional" car theives who know what the hell they're doing in the first place, but that's not the issue for most customers.
=Smidge=
Re:I *like* OnStar by transient · 2003-12-26 07:28 · Score: 4, Interesting

I like OnStar for being able to track, and stop my car if it is stolen.
This is an incredibly useful feature. My aunt had her car stolen at gunpoint a couple months ago. The police used OnStar to track down the car and bust a ring of serial car thieves that had been working in the Twin Cities for some time.

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irb(main):001:0>
Re:I *like* OnStar by jafac · 2003-12-26 07:45 · Score: 3, Insightful

TFM says:
When the check-engine light goes on, go drop off your car at the dealer and pay $200 so they can plug their proprietary computer in and proceed to charge you $800 to put in new spark plugs.

Not very helpful or informative. The Check-Engine light was a MAJOR step backwards, as far as making an automobile a useful and reliable device to own.

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Re:I *like* OnStar by jridley · 2003-12-26 07:46 · Score: 2, Interesting

I like On-Star for when my "check engine" light comes on, I press the button, they run a remote diagnostic on my engine's computer, and can tell me how serious the problem is and can call me a tow truck if needed.

Uh huh. So, the computer in EVERY car has a ton of diagnostic info in it, but the manufacturers have done work to keep you from getting that information out of the computer that you bought. Then you pay them a subscription fee to let them read the info out of the computer that you bought and speak it to you. Great.

It would cost the companies approximately ZERO DOLLARS AND ZERO CENTS to put in a mode to flash out trouble codes on a dash light. The trouble codes are all 4 digit codes. My 89 ford could do this; drop a paper clip across two wires under the hood, power up, the check engine light flashes the error codes. But nobody does this anymore.

They don't want you diagnosing the trouble, they want you to go to the dealer, or at least, to a mechanic that they hope bought a scanner that included some kickback to the manufacturer.

Admittedly, modern cars have a TON of info stored in their computers, and it wouldn't make sense to try to blink all that out on a light, but the major trouble codes could easily be done.

You can just go to the auto parts store and borrow their scanner; the local stores have loaner units. But it's irritating that they don't just give you the codes in the first place.
Re:I *like* OnStar by the_mad_poster · 2003-12-26 08:07 · Score: 2

What are you talking about? You're complaining (and rightly so) about the OBD-II system, not the check engine light. The check engine light on OBD-I systems was great. You simply had to plug ten cent wires into the appropriate port under your steering column to get blinking check engine codes from a car with OBD-I. The only trick was buying a $14 book that had the trouble codes for your model.

The OBD-II system has nothing to do with the check engine light and everything to do with the computer. In fact, the whole thing is proprietary now right down to the Windows OS on the testing device.

And for those who don't know - OBD-II is a partially government influenced "improvement" to the trouble code system in cars. If you go to pep boys, for example, and pay them $70 for an "engine diagnostic", they stick a plug in the port under or beside your steering column and it tells them some codes. The cross-reference the codes to a list they have and know what's wrong. The entire process takes about 15 minutes (yes, Pep Boys is, in my experience, nothing but a con job). In OBD-I systems, you could get engine trouble codes (the check engine light comes on when the computer sets a "trouble code" when one of the sensors says something is Not Right) by plugging standard wires into the port. The engine light would blink a certain number of times like morse code, and you could cross-reference that to a little booklet such as a Haynes manual. This system worked just fine. OBD-II was introduced for the sole purpose of making it nearly impossible to work on your own car (the testers cost several thousand dollars and you need a new one every couple of years) and to try and push out little local shops so everyone had to go to overpriced dealerships.

--
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Re:I *like* OnStar by alecto · 2003-12-26 08:21 · Score: 2, Insightful

This is assuming the recorder is infallible, and the accident reconstructionist interpreting the data from it is scrupulously honest (even though being paid by the insurance company) and technically competent.
The accident reconstruction industry is a very secretive bunch, and they are no doubt salivating at the possibility of creating new "value added" services using the proprietary interfaces into OBD, air bag, and other data logging systems on newer vehicles.
Re:I *like* OnStar by drinkypoo · 2003-12-26 08:34 · Score: 2

The existence of the check engine light does not mean anything negative. There are cars out there - mostly sports cars - which have the majority of the informative gauges in addition to the idiot light. The check engine light is primarily there for emissions control purposes, though; If anything on your car is out of spec, it turns on the light, and the smog guys (In California and a few other states) just fail you.
The check engine light lets you know when there is an error. Some cars can be convinced to provide you debugging information without a checker box. Removing two bolts and turning around my ECU (located behind the passenger side kick panel) allows me to get at the idle adjustment screw, which is actually a potentiometer also used to set the ECU one of five modes. Setting it to the proper mode makes it flash red and green LEDs on the unit for the tens and ones, and I can look the resulting code up in my Factory Service Manual (which ran me $65 and tells you basically everything you need to know to maintain your car) and figure out which sensor is having problems. Then I can test the sensor using the steps listed in the FSM and determine if it is the engine or the sensor itself which is out of specification.
Everything else that the ECU tracks is stuff you couldn't find out before the days of electronic engine management and/or fuel injection anyway so not being able to get out the extended OBD-II parameters is not a step backwards, it's just not a step forwards. I seem to recall that automakers are now required to publish their codes and can only charge a nominal fee for them, I assume they still charge too much but they are available. However, the vast majority of people don't need this information because they wouldn't know what to do with it if they had it.
Also, before complete engine management became the norm, and the check engine light was not a feature required on all automobiles, they were already replacing gauges with idiot lights, most commonly engine temperature, oil pressure, and charging system voltage. Furthermore, those idiot lights have generally persisted, even though the "check engine" light is standard. So I would say that we have lost nothing but our control over the smog process with the existence of the check engine light. Here in California, it must turn on briefly at startup (this is for testing o the lamp) and then stay off during the emissions test. If it does not, even if you pass by the numbers, you fail the smog check. So in that sense it's a step backwards for those of us with damaged or out-of-spec cars, but it's not hurting anyone.

--
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"

Call me silly... by zakezuke · 2003-12-26 05:42 · Score: 3, Interesting

I'm not about to dismiss the geek value of this, far from it. Never the less... It seems to me based on what I read all you are doing is modifying the onstar usin so your 3rd party device can get the GPS information, rather then it sent to ONSTAR(tm). Such a mod requires you to have a vehicel with the onstar device, and some basic soldering skill.

Now... assuming you don't actually own a vehicel with the ONSTAR(tm) system onboard... is there something special about it's gps reciever that would make it worthy to find one at a junk yard and purchace one? Rather then buying your own GPS reciever, laptop, and load in the approperate maping software for your enjoyment and pleasure?

--
There is no sanctuary. There is no sanctuary. SHUT UP! There is no shut up. There is no shut up.

Re:Call me silly... by Nogami_Saeko · 2003-12-26 05:46 · Score: 2, Informative

Well, I suppose the hack is handy for those who don't want to purchase a GPS unit, but personally, I'd just buy an RS-232-only GPS receiver (can be around the size of a quarter) and hook it up rather than hacking my system apart and voiding the warantee.

N.

--
"Nothing strengthens authority so much as silence." - Charles de Gaulle
Re:Call me silly... by Dun+Malg · 2003-12-26 05:55 · Score: 4, Informative

ONSTAR(tm) system onboard... is there something special about it's gps reciever that would make it worthy to find one at a junk yard and purchace one?
Not really. The Motorola Oncore GPS unit has slightly more informative proprietary software to talk to than your average NMEA serial GPS unit, but it's no better than a decent stand alone Garmin GPS unit.

--
If a job's not worth doing, it's not worth doing right.

possible new slashdot trolling technique? by Savatte · 2003-12-26 05:42 · Score: 4, Funny

hacking somone's onstar and sending them to the physical location of the goatse.cx server.

The 1337 kidz call it by NoData · 2003-12-26 05:42 · Score: 3, Funny

0wn3dStar

Onstar DELETED! Where is THE CHEAT? by Anonymous Coward · 2003-12-26 05:43 · Score: 3, Funny

Maybe they can call the new system "Homestar." I'd suggest "Strongbad" but that would probably not be very popular.

FBI by Leroy_Brown242 · 2003-12-26 05:43 · Score: 2, Funny

First the FBI, now this! You can't buy this sort of publicity!

--
Pretty Pictures!

DMCA anyone? by Rosco+P.+Coltrane · 2003-12-26 05:47 · Score: 2

The price for this service is around $400 each year. Those who tap into their OnStar systems pay no such fees./I.

$400 per year for onStar suddenly seems very cheap : that's the price of a hour with the lawyer who will defend you against GM during your brutal encounter with the DMCA ...

--
"A door is what a dog is perpetually on the wrong side of" - Ogden Nash

Violation of OnStar license agreement... by Anonymous Coward · 2003-12-26 05:48 · Score: 2, Funny

...will result in discharge of airbag.

Re:Cool and all, but by Rosco+P.+Coltrane · 2003-12-26 05:49 · Score: 4, Insightful

What's wrong with a hand-held GPS unit and a map?

The answer is contained in your question : "hand-held" and "map".

And some people wonder why there are so many road accidents ...

--
"A door is what a dog is perpetually on the wrong side of" - Ogden Nash

It's not just directions... by thparker · 2003-12-26 05:51 · Score: 2, Informative

I'm all for hacking OnStar to see what happens. But to tout this as a brilliant move because it saves you a few hundred bucks a year is ridiculous.

For $420 a year, you're also getting a call to emergency vehicles instantly when your air bag deploys, a Lojack-like tracking system, remote door unlocking when you lock your keys in the car, and more. That seems like a pretty good deal.

It seems to me that if you've bought OnStar with your car, it's not for driving directions. Or at least, not just for driving directions.

Re:Slashdot Effect Counter As we speak ... by Rosco+P.+Coltrane · 2003-12-26 05:53 · Score: 5, Funny

When I went in the Site counter was

0000032

Remember, it's a site dedicated to cars. They just rolled back the counter before selling the page to Slashdot, that's all.

--
"A door is what a dog is perpetually on the wrong side of" - Ogden Nash

How about unlocking doors? by Big+Ryan · 2003-12-26 05:54 · Score: 5, Interesting

Has anyone seen the OnStar commercial where the OnStar rep opens the vehicle doors remotely?

How long do you think it would take to come up with a crack that allows third parties to do the same? It would make stealing cars so much easier...

Re:How about unlocking doors? by twiddlingbits · 2003-12-26 07:20 · Score: 2, Interesting

You can unlock the doors, but without the special chip embedded in the car key the motor won't start, and the transmisson is locked. Assuming you can hack the ignition to bypass the key, the transmission still won't go in gear so you are stuck. So, until someone comes up with a way to fake the code in the key and communicate that to the system, the doors unlocking isn't a big dealfor theft except for ripping off your stuff.
Re:How about unlocking doors? by BoneFlower · 2003-12-26 07:44 · Score: 3, Insightful

Good point. We had to have someone do that when I locked the keys in the car(engine running too!) after my failed driving test.

An OnStar crack still has a couple advantages though. You can sit on a bench with a laptop, eating lunch, and open your target car without anyone knowning you are doing anything. Starting it might be a problem still, but you will be in the car without doing anything to tip off witnesses. You stick a slim jim in a car door, someone walking by at the wrong time can instantly know you are trying to break in. Not so with an OnStar crack.

Also, cracking OnStar would free you from the quirks of different models of car locks. Not all are in exactly the same place or work exactly the same, so the slim jim technique could hang you up a few extra seconds if it throws you something you don't expect.

Knowing how to use a slim jim will still be a valuable skill for a professional car thief, but being able to crack OnStar will also be valuable.
Re:How about unlocking doors? by leek · 2003-12-26 11:01 · Score: 2, Interesting

http://www.jsonline.com/news/metro/dec03/191454.as p

I have to point out... by HotNeedleOfInquiry · 2003-12-26 05:55 · Score: 2, Funny

What kind of self-respecting hacker would own a late-model GM vehicle with Onstar anyway? Most of the serious bit-pushers that I know are driving 12 year old Subarus, Volkswagon Rabbits and clapped-out Honda motorcycles.

--
"Eve of Destruction", it's not just for old hippies anymore...

This is foolish. by TheSHAD0W · 2003-12-26 05:56 · Score: 2, Informative

I'd have to opine that this is an extremely foolish thing to do, tear apart one's OnStar module simply to access its GPS unit. A PC-interfaceable GPS costs well under $100, and doing these modifications to your OnStar system may void your vehicle's warranty or reduce its resale value enormously.

Just disconnect the power on the damned thing and get a separate GPS for your onboard PC.

What would be interesting... by Xibby · 2003-12-26 06:02 · Score: 3, Insightful

Is if GM took a hint and provited a way to access the GPS without hacking the OnStar system. IR, Bluetooth, or even a cabled interface.

I see the main appeal of using the GPS unit built into the vehicle instead of buying a hand held GPS as it's one less device that needs it's battieres charged. It's likely that the people doing this already have their laptop plugged into the car's cigarette lighter/power outlet and their vehicle only offers one outlet.

It's also one less device that needs to be hidden away or carried with you when you leave the car.

--
I'm going to go back in my box and will think within the limits of my box: MS Sucks Linux Good I read too much Slashdot.

Re:Cool and all, but by Anonymous Coward · 2003-12-26 06:02 · Score: 2, Insightful

Err , given that you have to phone up onstar to find your location , hence use a phone anyway , what
exactly is the issue here?

You've never seen an onStar-equipped car have you?

Oh, come on... by SamMichaels · 2003-12-26 06:05 · Score: 2, Insightful

Most of the comments here are ripping this poor guy apart for wanting to do this. Give me a break. He's just telling you how you can do it...I seriously doubt any geek is going to get OnStar SOLELY to have a GPS.

This is like saying to the person who broadcasts AM radio from his monitor that a cheap $10 AM transmiter kit from Radio Shack is cheaper than a $100 monitor and that his idea is dumb.

Re:Cool and all, but by AKnightCowboy · 2003-12-26 06:06 · Score: 5, Informative

Err , given that you have to phone up onstar to find your location , hence use a phone anyway , what exactly is the issue here? YOu stop the car to read your had held GPS and pay nothing , or you stop the car to phone onstar and pay $$$$$$.

Have you ever used Onstar before? At least with my Grand Prix you just push the blue button, it cuts out the radio and you have hands-free communication with the person. It's kind of neat, but I've never used it so I didn't renew it when my free 1 year was up. The only advantage I saw was that if you're in an accident and the airbags deploy they'll call you to make sure emergency services gets to you. I didn't think it was worth $17 for this safety package though since I have a cell phone already. I never used it for directions since I'm a man... we never ask for directions!!! Now, if I could use my otherwise useless onstar system built into my car with a laptop then I find it interesting.

You put the wrong person in charge by Hal+The+Computer · 2003-12-26 06:07 · Score: 3, Funny

That's just because you but the wrong computer in charge. See, if you had put *ME* in charge, you woudn't have to worry about all those pesky misunderstandings. A HAL 9000 system is quite capable of understanding why you are dying.

I just might decide not to help you. ;-)

--

int main(void){int x=01232;while(malloc(x));return x;}

It better be a dark CITY road. by MDMurphy · 2003-12-26 06:09 · Score: 3, Interesting

OnStar doesn't make a big deal of it, but while they emphasis the satellite aspect, the communications is pure cellular. If there's no cell coverage, you're SOL as far as OnStar is concerned.
Granted, they use the older analog AMPS network which has better coverage than the newer PCS ones, but it still has limits on where it works.

So if you're lost, OnStar will help if you can call them. If there's no cell coverage, you'd be better off if that GPS wasn't a black box in the trunk but had some sort of display and map database.

Re:Cool and all, but by diverman · 2003-12-26 06:12 · Score: 2, Informative

Hmmm... Once I have the destination plugged in (which I do before I get in the car), my hand-held (which isn't in my hand at the time), tells me when to turn and gives me warnings as I approach an intersection or offramp.

Many hand-held GPS mapping systems I've used have the ability to tell you direction.

I'm not knocking OnStar, but portable devices can accomplish many of the same features for a flat cost, not a subscription fee.

-Alex

Two ways of looking at it... by Phoenix · 2003-12-26 06:22 · Score: 3, Informative

Two ways of looking at it.

Either:
$400/year for EMS contacting, vehicle location, vehicle unlocking, directions, mapping, list of local services. This is far more than what the crippled Onstar would be able to do and in my opinion well worth the investment

Or:
Delorme Mapping software - $40
Delorme Earthmate GPS - $90
Laptop Computer - $1100

This is capable of:
Mapping, GPS Location, local service look-up (gas stations, hotels, businesses, eateries, etc.) play DVD's, play MP3's, let your driving companion play Q3A. Again well worth the investment.

However since many of us geeks out there already have laptops and since it would seem that you need on to do the OnStar hacks, the $130 for a Delorme GPS rig seems to be the cheaper and FAR simpler solution.

But that's just my humble opinion

--
-- Wiccan Army, 13th Airborne Division "We will not fly silently into the night"

Re:Two ways of looking at it... by Phoenix · 2003-12-26 07:45 · Score: 2, Interesting

"And if your car runs off the road and hits a tree I'm sure your laptop will "sense" it and magically send help :)"

If that is a feature that you want then paying the $400/year isn't a bad way to go. However it strikes me as pointless to hack an OnStar module voiding all sorts of warranties and crippling most of it's functions just to hook it up to a laptop.

My point is if you're going to bring a laptop to the game, just hook the darn thing up to a $90 GPS and get some sort of mapping program.

Besides, I'm sure that there is someone out there who can figure out how to make a laptop dial out on a cell modem and say Accident at Lat. x, Long. Y, please send help

--
-- Wiccan Army, 13th Airborne Division "We will not fly silently into the night"

Re:I tell ya, it's the Joker! by vjmurphy · 2003-12-26 06:24 · Score: 5, Funny

Here's the first time Batman is using it:

Batman: OnStar, I locked the keys in the Batmobile.
OnStar: Okay, let me see, looks like you are at Stately Wayne Manor... wait, your secret identity is Bruce Wayne!
Batman: Dammit.

--
Vincent J. Murphy
Spandex Justice

Yes, but... by cHiphead · 2003-12-26 06:31 · Score: 5, Funny

... once you've lost your mouse arm, no more counter strike pwnage, whats the point in living anyway?

--

This is my sig. There are many like it, but this one is mine.

I've seen and comtemplated this... by Otto · 2003-12-26 06:40 · Score: 2, Interesting

This isn't all that new. All that it is really doing is building a serial interface onto the GPS part of the OnStar module and letting you access the data directly. Why bother?

1) The data is there already. It's cool to have access to it.

2) Many people, myself included, find OnStar somewhat useless, and don't pay for a subscription after the first free year. So it's nice to get some use out of that hardware that was already in the purchased vehicle anyway.

3) Using the built in GPS unit means no visible GPS antenna or hardware or what have you.

4) Because you can.

There's other parts of the OnStar hardware that are kinda cool too. The thing is basically a brain unit hooked to an analog cell phone and a GPS receiver. There's a built in microphone (in my case in the rear view mirror) and a connection to the car stereo system (both for audio and data, data being to display information on the radio display). Mainly I've been trying to hack the thing to let me use my own cell phone with the unit and thus make hands free calls, using the brain unit for the voice dialing functionality and so forth. Thus letting me make calls on my own phone without pahying the buck a minute charged by OnStar for their phone service.

Hey, the box in the car is *mine*. I paid for it, and I can do as I please with it.

--
- Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day, but set him on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life.

Batteries. by Moderation+abuser · 2003-12-26 06:55 · Score: 2, Funny

Just get a map and look at the road signs. It's only a problem for women.

--
Government of the people, by corporate executives, for corporate profits.

The point? by lisany · 2003-12-26 07:05 · Score: 2, Insightful

If you can afford a car with OnStar in it you can afford to pay the monthly fee.

But that's the pont. by mindstrm · 2003-12-26 07:25 · Score: 4, Insightful

If something went wrong with the electrical system, and they could reasonably show that your modifications to onstar could have caused it, fine, fair enough..

But "voids the warrantee" means that, if you modify the onstar system, and then a week later the rear axle falls off and the right front door hinges sieze up, they can say "sorry, you modified your onstar system, it's your problem".

The act in question means they can't just invalidate teh entire warrantee on the vehicle just because of one unrelated part.

Let me know when they get out the northstar data by drinkypoo · 2003-12-26 08:48 · Score: 3, Interesting

From what I understand, onstar is most useful when coupled with northstar; GM's latest and greatest V8 which is chock-full of sensors and supposedly will relay all kinds of information to GM, as in your number three spark plug isn't firing, or you're starting to get detonation, and your timing is being retarded however far. This data can then be sent to the appropriate service department when they schedule your service. This way they have an idea of what to look at before you even drive in. Modern ECUs look at an amazing amount of information when deciding what to do with your fuel delivery. Consider this, a modern auto with sequential electronic fuel injection monitors intake air flow, intake air temperature, O2 output, sometimes CO output, exhaust gas temperature, throttle opening position, crank angle, and they generally have a knock detection sensor. They can advance or retard ignition and fuel delivery timing. And that's just the stuff that basically every car does now; Many cars now have variable valve timing, so they can adjust valve timing, duration, and/or lift, some have multiple-stage intake runners so they can make the intake system more restrictive to enhance low-end torque, there are cars with coil on plug ignitions which means that the ignition timing is not advanced or retarded, but simply carried out by the ECU... Hell, Subarus tie the Transmission and Engine computers (which are separate) together so that the traction control system can instruct the ECU to reduce engine output during some types of slip situations.

It would be fantastic to be able to get all that information out of the car in realtime, all the time. Especially since Northstar engines are reputedly some of the most wired engines ever, and most cars with them have Onstar, it seems like something that some people might like to take advantage of. However, those motors are usually in fantastically expensive cars, so the market probably isn't very large.

--
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"

Re:Could GM Encrypt OutBound Signal? by Otto · 2003-12-26 08:59 · Score: 2, Insightful

FYI, if you are capable of performing this particular hack, it's a matter of about 10 seconds to restore it to functionality with OnStar.

The hack itself involves the following steps:
1) Solder a serial cable onto the GPS unit.
2) Hookup a laptop
3) Send a command that sticks the GPS unit into a different mode (NMEA) which is standard and works with all the mapping software you could want.

Getting it back to working with OnStar involves:
1) Sending a command to it to stick it back into Motorola binary mode
2) Unplug the laptop

You can leave the serial interface there. It doesn't mess with anything. And OnStar will work just fine once the GPS box is back in the mode that OnStar expects it to be in.

So your resale value isn't really an issue here. Admittedly, you can ruin the thing if you screw up the soldering, but the soldering part on this one isn't particularly difficult to do.

--
- Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day, but set him on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life.

Re:Let me know when they get out the northstar dat by valkraider · 2003-12-26 09:38 · Score: 2, Interesting

We have an application and(VAG-COM) and an adapter which plugs in to our volkswagen and provides ALL SORTS of cool info - just like what you are talking about. We can use it in real-time... Neat stuff... And you can adjust settings as well (even break things - just like at the shop!)

PATRIOT Act circumvention by Tremo · 2003-12-26 09:47 · Score: 2, Interesting

If these OnStar hacks become popular, and if they disable the normal operation of the system, how long before Ashcroft and that Texas moron Dubya move to make these mods illegal under the Patriot act? It would prevent the FBI/CIA/NSA/DIA/IRS/Deputy Dawg from tracking your movements! Circumvention!!! Clearly only someone subversive would not want Ashcroft and his right wing gang from knowing where you are. Ashcroft has said that law abiding citizens have nothing to fear from the Patriot Act!!! And then there's all the DMCA issues that may arise!! Don't you just love our government?? God help us.

OEM units by hey! · 2003-12-26 11:07 · Score: 4, Informative

I agree. It seems like the point of this "hack" is to get access to the GPS unit. Seems like a bad idea to mess with an expensive unit and possibly void your warranty, especially when you're just getting access to a $20 OEM GPS unit.

I'd say the main thing about doing this is that they've already mounted the GPS antenna and routed the cable. This is going to be cleaner looking and probably get better signal than slapping a GPS on the dashboard. It'd be nice to make a little box that sat under your dashboard, or maybe in your glove box, that you could just plug your laptop into.

I've had a little experience with the OEM GPS units in embedded systems. They send the standard NMEA strings so any GPS program can use them. The main issue is that they output TTL level (0,5V) rather than RS-232 (-12/+12). Your laptop probably won't care but some PDAs won't be able to read the data. I'd just mount the thing on a little breadboard,wire up th e power leads, run the two I/O wires to an DB-9 shell and the antenna input to the appropriate connector. Then unplug the GPS antenna from the onstar unit and plug it the antenna jack. The advantage of this is that there are no warranty issues; just plug the antenna lead back into the onstar unit when you take it in for service and nobody's the wiser.

You can get completely assembled, self contained, true RS-232 units for about $120. For less than $200 more, you can have differential GPS with 3m accuracy.

Another option I've messed with are little bluetooth enabled GPS receivers. These would be very clean and unobtrusive on a dashboard.

--
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.

Put on your tin-foil hats! by joeytsai · 2003-12-26 11:50 · Score: 3, Interesting

Those worried about big brother may want to check out this article concerning On Star. Basically, once the FBI found out they could snoop on people (OnStar apparently has a "listen" feature) they were all over it.

Not to mention the possibilities of random strangers listening in...

--
http://www.talknerdy.org

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