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MPlayer Alleges KISS Technology Violating GPL

bfree writes "Not for the first time, the people at MPlayer think they have found their code being distributed binary only, this time in at least one of KISS Techologies products. In their traditional quiet style the full story is now the first piece of news on their homepage including string comparisons between the player ROM and MPlayer. The 'evidence' presented relates to subtitle identification, where the KISS ROM includes the same list, in order, of subtitle formats as MPlayer (including their own format mpsub) and MPlayer's patterns for each of the formats are also there identically."

92 of 423 comments (clear)

  1. Where's the accusation? by Brahmastra · · Score: 5, Informative

    If anyone is wondering where the link with the actual accusation is, it is on the main page of Mplayer's website.

    1. Re:Where's the accusation? by Curtman · · Score: 4, Informative

      I don't seem to be having a problem with the site myself, but there are a few mirrors of the page already.
      Main
      2
      Switzerland
      Finland

  2. source available for download... by sirmalloc · · Score: 3, Informative

    well it appears on their website that they offer the source for download here

    1. Re:source available for download... by QS6dot2 · · Score: 2, Informative

      This ZIP-file only contains soucecode for uClinux and busybox.

    2. Re:source available for download... by helmutjd · · Score: 5, Informative

      That archive only contains the source for busybox and uclinux... no mplayer source is included, which means it's still a GPL violation.

      Not to mention the fact that you need to include a copy of the full text of the GPL with your binaries, which they also seem to fail to do.

    3. Re:source available for download... by kasperd · · Score: 2, Insightful

      it is acceptable to have source available on request only.

      Yes, but then you must accompany the binary distribution with a written offer to supply the source to anybody who make that request within the next three years at no more than the cost of physically distributing the source. It would be so much easier to just accompany the binary distribution with source codes. Otherwise they have to keep the source around for three years, and deal with requests for source, which they cannot make any money of, otherwise they would be violating the GPL.

      --

      Do you care about the security of your wireless mouse?
    4. Re:source available for download... by StormReaver · · Score: 2, Interesting

      "my understanding is that the cost for the source simply can't be more than the cost for the program."

      The parent was correct. The free for providing the source cannot exceed the costs for physically transferring the source. See GPL section 3b:

      " b) Accompany it with a written offer, valid for at least three
      years, to give any third party, for a charge no more than your
      cost of physically performing source distribution, a complete
      machine-readable copy of the corresponding source code, to be
      distributed under the terms of Sections 1 and 2 above on a medium
      customarily used for software interchange;..."

      However, I may have discovered a loophole that allows the charges to be extremely high, and here it is:

      The GPL does not state that fees cannot exceed the cost of physically distributing that copy of the source, but merely that the fee cannot exceed the cost of source distribution.

      Suppose your primary method of source distribution is Internet based and you maintain your own T3 (for example). You could theoretically and arbitrarily assign a large portion of the total T3 maintenance cost to providing bandwidth for source distribution for all the programs you provide in binary-only form.

      Then you provide your binaries with the written offer for the source, but you charge each recipient, for each source package, the assigned costs of maintaining your T3. This can easily run into thousands of dollars per source package.

      Common sense would suggest that the intent of the GPL applies not to your cost to provide source as a whole, but the cost of transferring just that one copy of the source. However, the GPL is somewhat ambiguous in that regard.

  3. This is great... by Sheetrock · · Score: 2, Insightful
    Isn't this going to start a trend where hardware companies stop releasing ROM updates for their products?

    90% of my stuff wouldn't even work right if I couldn't update the firmware, and there are a number of people that patch ROMs to extend hardware capabilities unofficially. Maybe the companies will get around it by encrypting their updates, but that doesn't sound like a win for anybody else.

    --

    Try not. Do or do not, there is no try.
    -- Dr. Spock, stardate 2822-3.




    1. Re:This is great... by FrostedWheat · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Isn't this going to start a trend where hardware companies stop releasing ROM updates for their products?

      I don't see how. If they haven't broken any distribution licenses then there is no problem. If they have, well they should have thought about that before they used the code.

    2. Re:This is great... by the_mad_poster · · Score: 3, Interesting

      While that's unfortunate for you, the end customer, it's just too bad. If they're not playing by the rules and they're stealing peoples' code, then the problem is that they were crooks, not that they used free software. Wouldn't be much different from Microsoft stealing Sun code.

      Perhaps it's a dawning age when businesses will be afraid to use proprietary software for fear that the company integrated GPL'ed source into their binaries without giving poper credit and/or providing the sources? Imagine, all the manadrones going from "Open Source is untrustworthy, we might get sued" or other such nonsense to "Proprietary systems are untrustworthy, they might get sued and we'd lose support".

      Ahhhh.... sweet sweet vindication... maybe.

      --
      Alito: A vote for Alito is a punch in the eye to put that bitch back in her place!
    3. Re:This is great... by be-fan · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Hopefully, it starts a trend where hardware companies stop violating copyright laws because they think no-one will notice!

      --
      A deep unwavering belief is a sure sign you're missing something...
  4. Mplayer deserves it's props... by ScottGant · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Mplayer is one of those apps I just can't live without on my machine. It handles just about anything and everything that I've thrown at it. I use it as my default mp3/movie player. And Quicktime movies are not a problem for Linux anymore.

    I quickly made a list of all of my 10+ gigs of mp3/m4a files just using find and grep...touched it up a bit in vim and then use "aterm -e mplayer -playlist /home/sgant/music/playlist -shuffle" and I've got hours and hours of back to back music. When I want something a little more structured, I have different playlists.

    Yeah, I probably could do this with xmms...but why?

    Give Mplayer it's due. It's a fine piece of software and they deserve all the recognition they get.

    --

    "Music is everybody's possession. It's only publishers who think that people own it." - John Lennon.
    1. Re:Mplayer deserves it's props... by TeknoHog · · Score: 2, Insightful
      Yeah, I probably could do this with xmms...but why?

      It's hard to explain, but I couldn't stand listening to several pieces of music without a playlist-based system like XMMS. For example, you have this list of 100 songs and you want to jump into a specific piece (not just the next or previous one). Try doing this with a keypress or two on mplayer -shuffle.

      For movies I use MPlayer, and I like to keep these two things separate. I haven't come across a situation where I'd need a playlist of movies, and MPlayer's CLI is just perfect for what the program does.

      [Shameles plug alert] However, XMMS is not IMHO the best possible playlist, which is why I've hacked together a textmode frontend for XMMS.

      --
      Escher was the first MC and Giger invented the HR department.
  5. Re:A taste of their own medicine by myzz · · Score: 5, Funny
    ever thought why they are hosted in Hungary ?
    They are hosted in Hungary, because main developers are hungarians?
  6. Re:sweet player... by Tack · · Score: 4, Insightful
    That looks like a sweet player. Go loook at all the features. They include ogg support. Most people the use ogg are pretty cool and open-minded, so hopefully they'll open up what is required.

    Well, if they stole MPlayer's code, they get Ogg support without having to be cool and open-minded. :)

    Jason.

  7. this page suggests they are compliant by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

    try looking here.

    1. Re:this page suggests they are compliant by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

      While KISS Technologies offers some source code, that does not include the GPL'ed code the MPlayer site claims was taken from their code: A case-insensitive grep of the KISS-supplied source code for the string "MPSub" finds no matches.

  8. The GPL is headed for a showdown... by Fortunato_NC · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Sometime in the near future, the GPL is going to be tested in court. This is a Good Thing, though, because I'm not sure that the Open Source movement can continue its momentum without an absolute guarantee by the courts that the work of developers will not be open to being "stolen" by proprietary software companies.

    However, there is the possibility that the GPL is struck down as being untenable. In that case, one of two outcomes exists:

    1. All formerly GPL software reverts to merely being copyrighted by the author, who can then do what he wants (close the source, BSD style license, etc.).
    2. All formerly GPL software is considered public domain. There is a massive "land grab" as companies snap up the sources out there for use in their closed proprietary products.

    IANAL. I want to make that clear. I do believe that the GPL is valid, legal, and will stand up in court. I just hope the court system agrees with me.

    --
    Blogging Weight Loss, Distance Education, and more at verlin.com
    1. Re:The GPL is headed for a showdown... by rehabdoll · · Score: 5, Informative

      IANAL, but the GPL is a license, nothing else. You cant lose your copyright just because the license is invalid.

    2. Re:The GPL is headed for a showdown... by Fortunato_NC · · Score: 4, Informative

      The problem is that while you can't lose your copyright because of distibution under an invalid license, it's hard to prove damages if you were distributing something essentially for free and someone else comes and packages it and makes money with it. The GPL provides protection because by downloading, using, and modifying GPL software, you are agreeing that you will not redistribute the software without making the source available. That contract between the author and user is what currently "guarantees" that the author's work won't be "stolen" out from under him/her. Again, IANAL, so YMMV...

      --
      Blogging Weight Loss, Distance Education, and more at verlin.com
    3. Re:The GPL is headed for a showdown... by Curtman · · Score: 5, Informative

      If I write a piece of software, it is copyrighted by me. If I choose to release my software with a license attached, that gives you the right to use my software under the terms of that license. If for some reason that license is invalid, the software is still copyrighted by me, and you no longer have the rights you once did under that license. Seems pretty straight forward to me.

    4. Re:The GPL is headed for a showdown... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative
      Fortunato NC wrote: The problem is that while you can't lose your copyright because of distibution under an invalid license, it's hard to prove damages if you were distributing something essentially for free and someone else comes and packages it and makes money with it.

      This is not that big a problem in the US. The US Copyright Act provides several remedies: (i) injunction (a court order for the infringer to stop), (ii) damages based on the copyright holder's actual damages _and_ the copyright violators profits or (iii) statutory damages (that is, damages specified by the statute without any need to show actual damages).

    5. Re:The GPL is headed for a showdown... by penguin7of9 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The problem is that while you can't lose your copyright because of distibution under an invalid license, it's hard to prove damages if you were distributing something essentially for free and someone else comes and packages it and makes money with it.

      I don't see that as a problem. People who use the GPL want compliance, not vast amounts of money. The requirement to comply with the license doesn't go away even if there are no monetary damages.

      The GPL already has big hammer: if you violate it, you lose all rights to the software. So, at this point, KISS faces the prospect of having to rip mplayer out of all their players, shipped, shipping, and on the drawing board, and looking for a substitute. That would amount to an enormous penalty and drive them out of business.

      If the open source community feels an example needs to be set, that's what the authors of mplayer should demand.

      Of course, in the past, GPL authors have often been nice and simply permitted companies like KISS to come into compliance by posting the source code after the fact. But that's a friendly gesture from the open source community; the GPL license carries a bigger stick.

    6. Re:The GPL is headed for a showdown... by nuggz · · Score: 2, Insightful

      1. All GPL software is copyrighted by the author.
      It can't revert if it never left that state.

      2. If a government declares my copyright invalid because they don't like my license they can't take away my ownership as punishment. Unless they make a law specifically stating such a process. Imagine if the gov just came and took all blue cars because they dont' like the colour. Doing this would be just as wrong.

    7. Re:The GPL is headed for a showdown... by Junta · · Score: 2, Interesting

      You missed his point. Let's say, hypothetically, KISS said 'kiss off, we are violationg the GPL and don't give a rat's ass.' Ok, so know they are known to be in willful violation of the GPL, and therefore lose license to redistirubte within the bounds of copyright law. The GPL is not a contract, and therefore not adhering to the GPL only means redistribution is prohibited by *copyright* law. Now take them to court because they are redistributing the content without a license. Easy case to prove, but the penalty is based on damages. How much does a free software project lose by having another company copy their stuff? Lost monetary gain is not an issue, as they already give it away for free. So yeah, the company is easily proved to violate copyright, but in doing so, the monetary payout in terms of penalty is likely to be low.

      So within the bounds of the legal system, I think the GPL holds little sway. However, what companies are intimidated by is the possibility of a boycott. The market of poeple who care about the GPL and stay aware of these cases maybe relatively small, but still sizable. For an embedded device company in particular, where the main draw is the hardware and the software merely an enabler for selling the hardware, the cost of disclosing source is infinitely smaller than even 300 lost customers due to boycott. Now for software packages that offer little benefit over a lesser known open source package they based themselves on, things change, as disclosing source under GPL means that a) competing almost as good free package gets attention and they lose sales and b) people can redistribute their product under terms of GPL and they face a new competing product they helped to develop and receive no benefit. However, for these companies they would likely want to keep the whole thing quiet (don't want potential customers finding out there is an open source project out there that is almost as good as their commercial product), and make a donation in exchange for the project not complaining loudly about the violation.

      --
      XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve the problem, use more.
    8. Re:The GPL is headed for a showdown... by 13Echo · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Why would GPL be any less valid than Microsoft's EULA? If GPL were considered invalid, the whole licensing system would be invalid, and would cruble. This would mean that no software company could control software piracy. Music companies could not control unlicensed distribution of music.

      GPL is a license like any other. To use the software, you must adhere to its rules.

    9. Re:The GPL is headed for a showdown... by sydb · · Score: 2, Informative

      I suppose you may have been trying to be funny but I'm not sure...

      The OSI which approves the GPL is the Open Source Initiative.

      OSI, as an OSI 7-layer model, stands for Open Systems Interconnect and the standard is set by the International Organization for Standardization (I guess IOS was already a Cisco trademark or something...).

      --
      Yours Sincerely, Michael.
  9. Kiss off by Bowie+J.+Poag · · Score: 3, Funny



    Their fax number is busy... Either they took the ringer off, or other people have the same idea. ;)

    --
    Bowie J. Poag

  10. Re:A taste of their own medicine by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Interesting

    unauthorised distribution maybe, hacked no.

    ffmpeg is the replacement for all divx codecs based on the hacked microsoft dlls so thats fine.

    and on the distribution bit, did it ever occur to you that you would have to keep a windows box for windows media (.avi, .wma), real (.rm, .ra) and an apple (if they played hardball with sorensen) for quicktime around just to see the videos that are released on the net today ? i dont care about some eulas i havent read if i can watch these on a system that doesnt connect to the net everytime i play a video.

  11. Re:Really In Violation ? by kastberg · · Score: 4, Interesting

    From Mplayers homepage: Kiss Technology failed to answer our inquiry for their source files (which they are obligated to provide), so this news entry is posted.

  12. acknowledgement by koekepeer · · Score: 4, Insightful

    ok the issue is about code that reads subtitles. other comments here already pointed out that (at least some of the) source is available at the KISS website

    besides possible GPL violation what i find disturbing is that apparently no credit was given to the mplayer developers.

    one of the main motivations of working on something for free is being appreciated and acknowledged for the work you do. kill the motivation, and you kill the incentive to release for free. it's a gift, right?

    1. Re:acknowledgement by lspd · · Score: 3, Informative

      besides possible GPL violation what i find disturbing is that apparently no credit was given to the mplayer developers.

      While I fully agree that anyone stealing GPL software deserves whatever lawsuits they get, the Mplayer team has violated the GPL in the past as well.

  13. Re:Really In Violation ? by theefer · · Score: 2, Informative
    There are no notes on the MPlayer site stating that someone asked for the source code.

    Yes there is :
    This is stealing GPL code into a proprietary product! Kiss Technology failed to answer our inquiry for their source files (which they are obligated to provide), so this news entry is posted.
    --
    theefer
  14. Re:A taste of their own medicine by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    i dont care about some eulas

    then why should Mplayer expect anyone else to ?

    they are distributing other peoples work for free illegally and then complain when someone else does the same ? haha gimme a break,
    iam sure quite a few companies would like to address their copyright concerns to the Mplayer team

  15. Re:Really In Violation ? by Sacarino · · Score: 4, Informative

    Um. Not to be difficult or anything, but the last bit of the news article states...

    Every single one of their patterns match ours! This is not coincidence. This is stealing GPL code into a proprietary product! Kiss Technology failed to answer our inquiry for their source files (which they are obligated to provide), so this news entry is posted.

    Sure looks like they asked for the source to me.

    --
    -- El Sacarino tiene gusto de la chocha
  16. The Devil himself?!?! by kinema · · Score: 3, Funny

    I don't suppose... could Keyser Soze be one of the MPlayer developers?

  17. GPL notice included in KISS DP-508 Media Player by Bowie+J.+Poag · · Score: 5, Funny



    In accordance with the GPL, the source for KISS DP-508 is available upon
    request, for a nominal fee to cover media and shipping costs.*

    .

    .

    .

    * = The source code will be provided to you as a series of large, neon-lit
    marquee letters shipped individually in wooden packing crates. Currently,
    the world's supply of neon gas limits our ability to ship large quantities
    of source code. The current expected wait time is 32 years, plus or minus
    6 months, depending upon the condition of labor relations in countries with
    substantial noble gas exports.

    For more information, please inject crystal meth directly into your eyeballs,
    and light yourself on fire while listening to the following song:

    http://www.ibiblio.org/propaganda/pogo/easteregg.m p3


    Thats the version of the GPL I prefer, personally.

    --
    Bowie J. Poag

  18. Re:Doesn't this count as fair use? by jrockway · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Are you smoking crack? Personal use? They're using (maybe) MPlayer's source SO THAT THIER PRODUCT WILL SELL. That's not personal use. That's comercial use.

    And not costing MPlayer a penny? No. But you can't copy the source or binaries unless you accept the GPL which says you have to release your modified code. Frankly, if the Mplayer team found strings in there then they didn't do much modifying of the code, eh? So they can just put mplayer.tar.bz2 on their website and everyone will be happy.

    I think you know that though. Your post read like you were trying to be `funny' by comparing/parodying slashdotter's views on compying mp3s. Frankly, that IS fair use because 1) there's no license and 2) they're raping you by charging too much money. Mplayer costs exactly $0.00 to use in your product. See the difference?

    --
    My other car is first.
  19. Gene Simmons and Peter Criss aren't... by Fortunato_NC · · Score: 2, Funny

    ...going to get away with this.

    There is no way the KISS Army can withstand the awesome onslaught of the GNU Hurd! RSS will lead the charge against the interlopers, with the battle cry "They're properly called GNU/Linux Systems!" ringing over the Plains...

    --
    Blogging Weight Loss, Distance Education, and more at verlin.com
    1. Re:Gene Simmons and Peter Criss aren't... by evil_one · · Score: 3, Funny

      Sadly, dirty hippies with bad breath can't stand up to the teradactyl fighting power that is KISS. They have guitars, man. They're great, they saved Santa, man! (See The Family Guy episode 203.)

      --
      Desperation is a stinky cologne
  20. Re:I own one, it rocks. by jetmarc · · Score: 3, Informative

    > I own one of their players (The DP-450). I love it, simply love it.

    I had the same player, and returned it. Hate to spoil, but

    - it mutes the audio on AVIs with WMA audio encoding (DIVX AUDIO)
    - it freezes on most SVCD discs I tried, usually after fast-forwarding
    - it freezes on some older DIVX AVIs, usually within the first 20 seconds
    - it turns into a slideshow on DIVX3 with lots of stuff moving, like eg in
    Matrix when the world turns into green hex numbers, or explosions with
    particles flying around
    - it doesn't play MP3 discs headless (to replace CD player in stereo)

    Other than that, it's a great product. I'd love to check their products again in a year or so.

  21. You, my friend, are not aware of the SCO case. by anti-NAT · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Start reading here

    groklaw
    --
    The Internet's nature is peer to peer - 20050301_cs_profs.pdf
  22. Re:acknowledgement vs. DMCA by DrWho520 · · Score: 3, Interesting

    How long until someones acknowledgement is denied and work is stolen by a large company who can hide behind the DMCA? An Open Source project could be "appropriated" by Sony or Microsoft who then releases it as their own project. If the source is unavailable, could you determine the origin deffinatively without reverse engineering?

    Could this be true, or am I missinterrupting the DMCA (shudder, I hate that thing)?

    --
    The cancel button is your friend. Do not hesitate to use it.
  23. Re:I own one, it rocks. by gellenburg · · Score: 5, Insightful
    It is products like these that are important to the Open Source community.

    How, exactly?

    Really, I'm being serious.

    • Does KISS donate any revenues or profits received to any OSS projects?
    • Does KISS publicly acknowledge and recognize the hard work from all the MPlayer developers?
      • After all, their product wouldn't be what it is today without the hard work of others.
    • Does KISS offer to host a mirror of the MPlayer code & binaries to help show their support?
    • Does KISS contribute back their code changes to the MPlayer project so the entire project benefits? (changes do not have to be accepted, however.)

    Again, I ask, with all honesty, just how do products like these benefit the OS community; because frankly the way I see it, what's happening here is nothing more than greedy sons-of-bitches who are exploiting the hard works of others.

  24. The bastards by An+Anonymous+Hero · · Score: 4, Funny
    We have one more pattern in our parser, which was commited on 2003 July 20, in effect of supporting a new subtitle format, called "ASS". Kiss Tech's files are missing this one, so they must have lifted our code before that date.

    So, not only they don't comply, they don't even kiss ass. Pretty damning if you ask me!

  25. But, has anybody ever been sued for GPL violation? by turnstyle · · Score: 2, Interesting
    Just curious about this, but has anybody ever been sued for a GPL violation?

    If nobody ever gets in any trouble for using GPL code in a closed project, then isn't it reasonable to assume that it'll happen more often?

    And who is supposed to hire the lawyers on behalf of a free project? And don't tell me FSF will just handle everybody's legal troubles pro-bono...

    --
    Here's what I do: Bitty Browser & Andromeda
  26. Once again, not a GPL violation. by mindstrm · · Score: 4, Insightful

    It's a copyright violation.

    The GPL is not a contract you agree to before using or obtaining source... it is a license that permits you to do things other than those allowed by copryight law alone.

    If they are using MPlayer's code without license, that's copyright violation, and all that entails.

    They can either come to an agreement with the copyright holders, or cite the GPL as their permission, if they had followed it.

  27. Re:But, has anybody ever been sued for GPL violati by Rich0 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    The FSF tends to stick with GNU projects. They insist that all GNU developers give them a form assigning the FSF their copyrights - so that they have strong standing in a court. One potential argument a GPL-violator could bring up against most other projects would be to argue to the judge that the plaintiff can't prove that all the copyright holders agree with the suit. Then again, all the copyright holders did release their code under the GPL, so the court might nix that argument. The FSF prefers not to risk it, however.

    If the FSF gets one or two cases with significant penalties, companies will fall in line. If a company knowning violates the GPL and sells a billion dollars worth a product they could face huge penalties - the loss of several billion dollars isn't worth saving a few million in development costs by ripping off the code...

  28. Re:So Sue, Or Risk Making GPL Unenforceable by AndreyF · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Before someone says that they're just a small band of impoverished but brave open source developers who can't afford to pay lawyers....well, tough.

    Actually, then they are still likely to be represented by the FSF, or FSFE in this case, probably.

  29. download link for kiss source by sqrt529 · · Score: 3, Informative

    I don't understand why they say it's a GPL Violation. The source is offered as a download on the kiss website.
    http://www.kiss-technology.com/?p=hot_news&v=users

    1. Re:download link for kiss source by MrEd · · Score: 4, Informative
      From Mplayer's website:


      " Before I get another 10 mails about this: the GPL.ZIP file which they offer for download on their site contains only the Linux kernel and busybox sources, not MPlayer's!

      Thanks."

      --

      Wah!

  30. only if it is a customer of theirs by nietsch · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The GPL states that you only have to provide the sources along with the distibution. The distibution is in this case embedded in their player, so the only thing they would have to answer to is a demand from a verified owner of the player.

    If you ask me the evidence is a bit thin. They are offering a full rom update (btw what os is it?) and all they find on them is a couple of strings in a binary? You'd expect the whole player to be in there, not just some subtitle stuff.

    Oh well, their server recieves a slashdotting and their pr-person(subhuman) gets scalded. Then they release the code and all will be good again...

    --
    This space is intentionally staring blankly at you
    1. Re:only if it is a customer of theirs by jdhutchins · · Score: 3, Interesting

      They are using the subtitle stuff to identify that it's their code. I doubt anyone else uses MPlayer's subtitle format, so if MPSub is in there, then it probably came from MPlayer. The subtitle format names are also listed in the same order as MPlayer. These two make it probably more than just a coincidence.

      We'll just have to see what KISS says about this. If they release the source, it's probably all good (at least it has been for the FSF in the past)

  31. Re:But, has anybody ever been sued for GPL violati by GigsVT · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Yes, in 2002 MySQL AB sued Nusphere for statically linking to GPL code without including source. The judge didn't rule on the merit of those claims however, so it wasn't a very good test for the GPL. The judge just told Nusphere to stop using the MySQL name with their product.

    --
    I've had enough abrasive sigs. Kittens are cute and fuzzy.
  32. Welcome to America by cloricus · · Score: 2, Insightful

    You're joking right? "Oh dear god they are doing some thing we don't like; SUE THEM!!!" /me Hits speed dial to lawyers
    There is no need at all to sue KiSS, all they need to do is send a nice letter to them asking politely if they will comply with the GPL and if applicable give MPlayer some credit. (Though they aren't bound by anything to give open credit, only the basics.)
    If that fails you take it to the next step and the step after that and at some point they will comply as one of the last steps you get too will be courts.
    There is no need to jump to possibly expensive court cases for no reason at all.

    --
    I ate your fish.
    1. Re:Welcome to America by dizzyduck · · Score: 2, Insightful

      You seem to think there's something wrong about using lawyers to protect your rights. Why?

      The parent's point was the lawyers do not need to be unleashed immediately. They could attempt to settle the dispute without suing. If the dispute could not be settled to their (the MPlayer developers) statisfication, then they could look at suing KISS.

      Sending polite memos back and forth won't establish the legal enforceability of the GPL.

      Not every GPL infringement has to be an opportunity to establish the legal enforceability of the GPL. The primary objective is to stop KISS from voilating their copyright, not to prove that the GPL is concrete.

      --
      Allergy advice: Contains eggs.
  33. Re:But, has anybody ever been sued for GPL violati by helmutjd · · Score: 3, Informative

    Just curious about this, but has anybody ever been sued for a GPL violation?
    AFAIK, it's never gone to court.

    If nobody ever gets in any trouble for using GPL code in a closed project, then isn't it reasonable to assume that it'll happen more often?
    I'd have to assume it'd be a gamble for both sides... would you really want to be the first company to test out the GPL? And even if you won, is that really the kind of PR you want?

    And who is supposed to hire the lawyers on behalf of a free project? And don't tell me FSF will just handle everybody's legal troubles pro-bono...
    I believe they will, if you sign over the copyright:

    "...only the copyright holders are empowered to act against violations. The FSF acts on all GPL violations reported on FSF copyrighted code, and we offer assistance to any other copyright holder who wishes to do the same."

    And failing that, don't forget that a lot of companies have significant interest in GPL'd software (think IBM, Novell, etc). If the GPL really ever came into question, I imagine you'd see more than a few significant financial contributions from third parties.

  34. Not the way to do it by Alan+Cox · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Thats not the way to do it. The KISS folks have been one of the people who seem to have got the Linux DVD player thing right with regard to the source modules. Secondly the mplayer people need to find out who that code came from - the kiss player if I remember rightly is based on a kit from Sigma designs.

    So firstly its quite possibly not their fault
    Secondly its quite possible they are all still on their christmas holiday

    Someone at mplayer might want to look at the other sigma based players firmware files.

    And finally .. ranting and raving isn't how you solve problems because you make it hard for an accidental offender to correct a problem without losing face, which sometimes means they'll try and tough it out rather than sort it out.

    There are lots of GPL infringements that get sorted out politely. Mostly involving large companies who regardless of what people like Microsoft may claim about Open v Closed most definitely DO NOT do any checking on what their contractors shipped them. They get sorted because the company can add a footnote to the manuals or put the tar source files up on the support page without embarrasment.

    1. Re:Not the way to do it by Bowie+J.+Poag · · Score: 2, Interesting



      Hi Alan,

      True. But you have to agree there was some degree of professional neglect on their part. While it's true the GPL doesn't necessarrily require an inheritant to go out of their way to contact the benefactor, as is the case with KISS, its good practice to do so, at least from a professional standpoint.

      AFAIK, nothing in the GPL obligates me KISS to have any substantial dialogue with the mplayer guys. Much the same as nothing obligates me to say "thank you" when someone keeps an elevator door open for me. It's just common courtesy. KISS should have acknoqledged their concerns. GPL or not, it's undeniably rude to take someone's code and run off making major commercial plans with it. Call it personal consideration, professional ethics, or whatever.. I don't think it's beyond the ability of any company, no matter how large, to be considerate to people.

      (For the record, I couldn't manage to send a fax to them. And it was worded much like above, not a flaming zealous nasty-gram. )

      Cheers,

      --
      Bowie J. Poag

    2. Re:Not the way to do it by demi · · Score: 4, Insightful
      So firstly its quite possibly not their fault
      Secondly its quite possible they are all still on their christmas holiday

      Amen. And thirdly, maybe KISS is just treating the mplayer people like they treat their own users: with hostility and inaccessibility. Considering that KISS release sources for busybox and Linux, I find it difficult to believe that they would somehow refuse to release mplayer source because they're evil. Most likely it's just an oversight that will be cleared up in time--too bad the mplayer people are so quick to pound the drum of aggrievance, but it's totally in character for them.

      By the way, I like mplayer very much, the developers do a really excellent technical job; they just lack interpersonal skills--which are very necessary when trying to get a business to do what you want them to do.

      --
      demi
  35. Couldn't resist... by MImeKillEr · · Score: 2, Funny

    "Gene Simmons unavailable for comment."

    --
    Cruising the internet on my TI-99/4A @ a whopping 300 baud!
  36. Re:I own one, it rocks. by Jah-Wren+Ryel · · Score: 3, Funny

    Sounds like they need to upgrade to the latest version of mplayer!

    --
    When information is power, privacy is freedom.
  37. what are you saying? by penguin7of9 · · Score: 5, Interesting

    So, you are saying we should tolerate GPL copyright violations so that you can get updates to your ROMs from sleazy companies? I don't think so. As long as software copyrights are the law of the land, GNU has the same rights to enforce them as everybody else.

    If KISS doesn't want to deal with the GPL, they can always license Windows XP/Embedded for their players and you can pay for it. And you can bet that Microsoft will enforce their licenses.

  38. Re:I own one, it rocks. by Jah-Wren+Ryel · · Score: 2, Insightful

    RMS is a smart guy, if he had wanted to enforce the "spirit of the GPL" (whatever that is) he would have made compliance specific in the GPL. To expect more than what is written in the GPL is only setting yourself up for constant disappointment.

    --
    When information is power, privacy is freedom.
  39. Re:acknowledgement vs. DMCA by penguin7of9 · · Score: 4, Informative

    The DMCA prohibits reverse engineering for the purpose of circumventing copy protection devices. Analyzing binaries for detecting copyright infringement is not something prohibited by the DMCA.

  40. Re:So Sue, Or Risk Making GPL Unenforceable by penguin7of9 · · Score: 2, Informative

    It's the mplayer developers' choice whether they want to enforce their license against KISS. If they don't, after a while they may not be able to.

    But their actions have no bearing on whether you or I can legally enforce the GPL against software we have created and released under the GPL. The GPL is just contractual language. Just because you may fail to enforce your contracts doesn't affect my ability to enforce my contracts even if the contracts we use use the same language.

    If your line of reasoning applied, most of the real estate contracts people use (which are mostly standardized) would be unenforceable because many people fail to enforce their contractual rights under them.

  41. Re:But, has anybody ever been sued for GPL violati by helmutjd · · Score: 3, Insightful

    they're still in the same position to sell that same hardware (and perhaps services) regarless of whether some other organization is violating a GPL stipulation
    If the GPL is questioned in a serious lawsuit, it'll be more than just "some other organization violating the GPL". You'd essentially be proving (or disproving) the legal validity of the GPL.

    I suppose it depends on what happens to previously-GPL'd code if the GPL is ruled unenforceable. I really know nothing about it, but I've heard speculation that all GPL'd code could revert back to being "just plain copyrighted" by the author if the GPL was stricken down. I understand that to mean that unless the author chose to re-release it under a different, valid, free license, you'd have no legal right to continue using it at all.

    Their interest in GPL is limited to the extent that it can help them sell hardware
    IBM was just an example, but I'd imagine it'd be pretty hard to sell hardware if you're not legally entitled to use the code.

  42. Re:yet again, clueless open source developers... by Lumpy · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Guess what. Not being a asshole get's you farther in life.

    email-ing them politely and other actions that don't cost money are your first step. I have solved amny GPL violations of my code with a simple email and a request that they fix the oversight on someone's part. Being nice get's you farther. throwing money at a lawyer to piss someone off only get's you hated.

    I suggest you read 'how to make friends and influence people", it sounds like you need some help with negotiation skills.

    --
    Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
  43. Re:A taste of their own medicine by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

    don't Mplayer distribute hacked unauthorised divX,mpg4 and quicktime and realaudio .dlls for win32 ?

    No, they don't. You're probably thinking of the Penguin Liberation Front codec pack, which is not part of mplayer itself.

    You can compile mplayer entirely from source with DivX, mpeg4 and Quicktime support. This support comes from GPL'd source code, not from hacked binaries.

  44. YANAL, ie, informative my ass by A+nonymous+Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    The GPL is a LICENSE not a contract.

    Statutory damages can be tremendous, I believe $150,000 per violation if wilful.

    The other penalty is that KISS will have to stop distribution altogether if they lose in court. That basically puts them out of business.

    GPL protection has nothing to do with using or modifying, only with distribution.

    You barely have anything right. You need to read more groklaw.

  45. Stand Clear and fingers in youre ear! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

    Wow, these devices are realy cool. Before someone shouts rape, just look on their website:

    http://www.kiss-technology.com/?p=gnu&v=users

    It states that they use gpl'd software, nice ;-).
    This also includes a link to de full source code.

    About MPlayer, their player rocks. This is just good advertisement for them, nothing more.

    Keep it cool homys

  46. Re:I own one, it rocks. by raindog2 · · Score: 3, Informative

    OTOH, making the source available on the internet is one of the specifically allowed methods of distributing it under the GPL.


    Not entirely true. Read the GPL FAQ:


    Q. I want to distribute binaries without accompanying sources. Can I provide source code by FTP instead of by mail order?


    A. You're supposed to provide the source code by mail-order on a physical medium, if someone orders it. You are welcome to offer people a way to copy the corresponding source code by FTP, in addition to the mail-order option, but FTP access to the source is not sufficient to satisfy section 3 of the GPL.

    When a user orders the source, you have to make sure to get the source to that user. If a particular user can conveniently get the source from you by anonymous FTP, fine--that does the job. But not every user can do such a download. The rest of the users are just as entitled to get the source code from you, which means you must be prepared to send it to them by post.

    If the FTP access is convenient enough, perhaps no one will choose to mail-order a copy. If so, you will never have to ship one. But you cannot assume that.

    Of course, it's easiest to just send the source with the binary in the first place.


    So as long as no one requests a physical copy of the source, you're right, sticking it on your site for them is good enough. The 24MB source zip file would be a little tough on dialup users, so there could be a case where they're required to provide the source on CD or whatever.

    In any event, I just downloaded said file and here's what it contains (edited for lameness):


    Archive: GPL.zip
    Length Name

    751701 busybox.tar.gz
    24236327 uClinux-2.4.17.tar.gz

    24988028 2 files


    So unless they're offering the mplayer source separately, they're probably in violation of the GPL anyway.

  47. Isnt Kiss using Sigma Design tech? by shakey_deal · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Kiss are using a lot of sigma stuff in their products. Not sure if they are in this case but maybe it is Sigma who did yet another cut n paste?

  48. Re:I own a KiSS 450 by Tin+Foil+Hat · · Score: 3, Insightful

    This isn't about whether or not the MPlayer guys are socially adept, it's about whether or not KiSS Tech is violating their license.

    Even assholes have rights, no matter how much other assholes might dislike them.

    --
    No matter how many of my rights are taken away, somehow I still don't feel safe. -Frigid Monkey
  49. What people keep forgetting... by Xugumad · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Is that it only takes one lazy programmer for their to be a GPL violation. I don't see this is being some high-up manager instructing their programmers to use mplayer to save time, I see this as someone realising they needed subtitles code and mplayer had it already, so they did a quick cut&paste.

  50. Re:A taste of their own medicine by navak · · Score: 3, Informative
    No, they don't. You're probably thinking of the Penguin Liberation Front codec pack, which is not part of mplayer itself.

    Maybe but it is distributed on and by the mplayer site, just click on "downloads".

    You can compile mplayer entirely from source with DivX, mpeg4 and Quicktime support.

    Yes. But they still distribute those binary codecs in clear violation of the law.

  51. Quality sign by Waldeinburg · · Score: 2, Interesting

    This shows that MPlayer is of a quality worth stealing. Way to go!

  52. Re:But, has anybody ever been sued for GPL violati by Rich0 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    The FSF opposes on principle most licensing schemes other than the GPL (and legally equivalent variations). They don't wan't dual-licensed products (a la MySQL), etc. You are correct that as a result many developers don't like working on GNU projects. But quite a few do - the FSF is largely about a revolution in how software is licensed in general. In the FSF's vision of the world, there is no such thing as closed-source software. The way they propose to create this new world is by making GPL-based software which is better than anything offered in closed-source.

    The FSF is definitely about activism. Not all programmers are activists, but the FSF believes that the GPL gives them an edge that no proprietary development firm can beat - the fact that even if only a minority of GPL software users give back, they still receive more than proprietary vendors do from their community.

    I'm not bashing those who disagree with the FSF - as I said the FSF is definitely an activist group. But they obviously have been successful despite their requirements regarding copyright assignment. GCC is probably the most widely used compiler there is...

  53. Re:A taste of their own medicine by Da+Masta · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Because MPlayer never pretends to have written the source for all the dll's they're including. Everyone using them knows where they're from.

    KISS, on the other hand, is allegedly using MPlayer source without releasing the sources to their modifications, and in essence are claiming the software as their own. This is a violation of the license MPlayer is released under.

    This is quite different from repackaging and redistributing files that were freely available on the net.

  54. Re:A taste of their own medicine by Teun · · Score: 2, Insightful
    Yes. But they still distribute those binary codecs in clear violation of the law.

    Who's law?

    Check where they operate, it might not be your country!

    --
    "The likes of Facebook and WhatsApp are free to those whose privacy is of zero value."
  55. You want recognition? Then don't use GPL! by JohnQPublic · · Score: 2, Interesting

    besides possible GPL violation what i find disturbing is that apparently no credit was given to the mplayer developers. one of the main motivations of working on something for free is being appreciated and acknowledged for the work you do.

    How odd to read someone writing negatively about violation of the GPL when the one thing that the FSF said made the original BSD license non-free was the advertising clause! If you want credit that badly, use a license that insists upon it. The GPL doesn't ask for it, and asks for a lot of other stuff, so it apparently doesn't matter to folks who release their code under the GPL.

  56. Re:it's better than that by rhizome · · Score: 2, Insightful

    No, you could not as easily argue that. If it can be interpreted as having miniscule financial value, how do you explain the number of companies who are using it to make, you know, money?

    --
    When I was a kid, we only had one Darth.
  57. Re:A taste of their own medicine by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    then why should Mplayer expect anyone else to ?

    Because for the ten billionth time, the GPL is not an EULA.

    You're right though, it's quite funny to see the MPlayer guys complain about unauthorised distribution of their property when they've done it themselves with others' property.

  58. copyright holder entitled to infringer's profits by Brian+Ristuccia · · Score: 5, Informative

    Now take them to court because they are redistributing the content without a license. Easy case to prove, but the penalty is based on damages.

    Actually, the award is not necessarily based on the copyright holder's actual damages. According to 17 USC 504 (a), "an infringer of copyright is liable for either... the copyright owner's actual damages and any additional profits of the infringer, as provided by subsection (b); or statutory damages, as provided by subsection (c)." The emphasis on the additional profits language is mine, but it's important: the copyright holder is entitled to any additional profits the infringer made through use of the infringing material.

    Even in cases where it's difficult to prove damages or additional profits from the infringing material, the copyright holder is entitled to statutory damages. See 17 USC 504 (c). That's $30,000 for infringement in general, and $150,000 if it's willful infringement. An infringer who uses language like "KISS off" or an infringer finding themselves back in court for doing it again will probably be facing the $150,000 number. Paying the judgement does not entitle you to future use of the copyrighted work.

  59. free != free by RVT · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Violating the GPL can cause 'real' monetary damages.

    Please get the concept that 'free' software can cost money!

    Just because English is a piss poor language does not mean reality has to accommodate it.

    How can an author lose mone by some company violating the GPL? Easy. If the company wanted to keep their modifications to my code proprietary, they would have to contact me for a licence other than the GPL, which I would have gladly given them; in return for some $$$.

    Get it now?

    This is why a lawsuit can show real damages. Based on the companies revenues and typical licence fees.

    P.s.: Most other languages seem to have different words for free/freedom and free/beer. Only native English speakers seem to be hung up on this.

  60. Re:A taste of their own medicine by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    just like good science, most accomplishments are built on the works of others, and when your piece of the puzzle comes to fruition, you credit the others upon which your work depends.

    mplayer makes no pretense to have created divx, xvid, mpeg, the dlls from microsoft etc etc etc.

    those that have the rights to those protocols that are being called by mplayer, are free to enforce whatever rights they think they have.

    the line in mplayer is clearly visible. the mplayer engine that mplayer developers wrote, and codecs that are called.

    but you are saying that it's ok for others to blur that line, and just claim GPL code as their own.

    If mplayer had packaged microsoft's, real's, apple's codecs AND CLAIMED "we are responsible for the creation of ALL THESE WONDEROUS THINGS" ....then your comparison would be correct.

    but don't let the facts stand in your way.

    and when things get a little more complicated then tying a shoe, please continue to refrain from making distinctions.

    your broad brush, black and white world probably has someone wishing evil upon you even as I type this...

  61. In compliance with RMS? by CaptKilljoy · · Score: 2, Funny

    Isn't RMS's stated goal to destroy copyright altogether? Logically, at that point anyone will be able to use or "steal" code in any way they want because there will be no way to enforce the author's wishes. Maybe KISS Technologies is just ahead of the game. ;)

    (I'm half serious here; what is supposed to happen after copyright no longer exists?)

  62. Re:Minor correction. by Curtman · · Score: 2, Interesting
    Its not my link, its Mplayer's link from their front page. DNS is a technology which translates names to IP addresses (and sometimes back again.. Oooooh). Check it out.

    Lets see if we can resolve that address:
    ping www7.mplayerhq.hu
    PING www.linux.ncp.fi (195.148.194.75) 56(84) bytes of data.


    Hrrmmm... .fi, that looks like it might be Finland!!

    Lets just check.

    Magic internet faries, you've done it again.

    Forgive my sarcasm, I've been battling AC's and its left me jaded and cynical.
  63. Re:Almost as bad as the RIAA by 1000StonedMonkeys · · Score: 2, Informative

    No, he's actually correct. He's just been using mplayer longer than you.

    Back in the early days of Mplayer the developers used some third party code that wasn't released under the GPL. As a result, they forbid people from distributing binaries of MPlayer, as they felt that this would violate the GPL. Eventually that code was replaced, and you can now get MPlayer binaries legally, but this wasn't always the case.

    Not quite the same situation same situation as KISS, but worth noting none the less.

  64. Re:But, has anybody ever been sued for GPL violati by nathanh · · Score: 3, Insightful
    Just curious about this, but has anybody ever been sued for a GPL violation?

    Sort of. I'll say "yes" but qualify. You can't sue somebody for violating the GPL. It's not a contract. It's a license. If they don't agree to the license then it has no legal weight.

    The impressive part about the GPL is that if they don't agree to the GPL then copyright law springs into effect. Copyright law can kick them in the teeth a lot harder than the GPL ever could.

    So you don't really sue for a GPL violation. You sue for copyright infringement. You offer the GPL as an escape mechanism. If the guilty party accepts the GPL then they avoid the lawsuit. If they don't accept the GPL then... well... simply put, they lose in court.

    There have been several examples of companies being sued for copyright infringement of GPLed software. I think they've all ended in settlement so far. So effectively the courts have been used to enforce the GPL. A recent example was MySQL vs NuSphere as reported on Slashdot.

  65. Re:Explain that, please by evilviper · · Score: 2, Informative
    How does offering the product for download violate the GPL?

    It uses patented technologies (which they certainly have not payed the royalties for). In Hungary, software patents are not (yet?) in existance, so it is legal to distribute from mplayerhq.hu. However, within the United States, the patents that apply to the program run afoul of the GPL (read the addition restrictions section of the GPL).

    By distributing it from a country where it violates patents, they are violating the terms of the GPL.
    --
    Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
  66. Yes... and No... by IBitOBear · · Score: 2, Interesting

    (This is a hair you are splitting.)

    IANAL, but...

    "Contract Law" is a bit like saying "Intellectual property". It isn't right. Contract law is really "tort" law, and a "tort" is a twisting (violation etc) of an agreement. The word "contract" is just a place-holder for the formula for an agreement, and it is broader than you might imagine.

    A contract exists when (if I recall correctly) consideration (value) is exchanged under terms of agreement. In point of fact, there is legal precident for the idea of a "social contract". In other words, a contract is just an agreement of a certian complexity that meets certian requirements. All the penalties and violations happen in/as "tort" and that is a broad brush indeed.

    In gerenral, if the author finds value in having his work used, and indeed worked on or modified and distributed, this argument becomes stronger. But... (always more buts... 8-)

    -- Default terms were offered.

    -- Acceptance of those terms is inferred by re-distribution. (this is as valid as a click-through in terms of being evidence of agreement.)

    -- Value was exchanged more-or-less, though some of that value is a little esoteric.

    -- The failure of KISS to fulfill their agreement is tort (kind of like not paying after you agreed to pay.)

    IF you insist that you had no agreement *THEN* it is copyright issue.

    The thing is, there is nothing to be had by persuing the tort, as the tort can be resolved by providing the source and licencing terms. The remedies under tort are huge if you *need* the product and you insist on your refusal to pony up the source. This is why the GPL violations are essentially resolved by production of the source, which is much easier than pulling the product etc. If the distributor fulfills the agreement and causes the tort to disapear, the issue is over.

    GOD SAVE the company that insists the GPL is invalid, refuses to comply whit it, has not other agreement to use the material, and thereby gets things promoted into the copyright law.

    So, in fact, the License Agreement is a contract. But just as a man with a legion standing behind him is stronger than a man standing alone; the license agreement (as a concept) has copyright law standing behind it. It creates a "deal with me or deal with my armies" kind of condrum that brings lawyers nicely to heel.

    These bodies of law overlap a good bit, but here is the key thing: I have a copyright and I proffer terms for its use. There isn't a special body of law saying what those terms may be. There are no explicit "copyright assignment statutes". The fact that I cannot require you to do bizzare and incidental things comes from "contract law" and not copyright law. The word "agreement" is the great unifier here. Only certian kinds of agreements are enforcable. What those kinds are is covered in contract law. (and so on, forever, ahmen... 8-)

    The GPL is a CONTRACT dealing with the assignments of copyright rights.

    just as

    The purchase agreement on a home is a CONTRACT dealing with the transfer of real property (rights) between parties.

    just as

    If I ignore my Microsoft EULA, particularly if I do something having nothing to do with "copying" such as actually securing my system against Microsoft's right to snoop on and upgrade my box (8-) or deleting all the microsoft logos and replacing them with pictures of blowfish, I am liable for things like lawyers fees but I am not automatically thrown to the $150,000 sharks.

    If you violate the GPL, you tort a contract, if you abrogate that contract by any means so there is no governing agreement at all, THEN the copyright holder can hammer you for viloating his copyrights.

    Remember, there is no magic to "signing something", a signature is *ONLY* evidence of agreement. For a contract to exist there needs *only* be an agreement by all parties that isn't otherwise illegal as an agreement per-se. (e.g. an contract to murder someone isn't legally

    --
    Innocent people shouldn't be forced to pay for inferior software development.
    --"Code Complete" Microsoft Press