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Apple Users Threaten to Sue Over iBook, iPod
An anonymous reader writes "Reuters is running a story about failing Apple hardware. 'Can a few bad apples -- like product quality complaints and potential lawsuits -- spoil the bunch for loyal fans of Apple Computer Inc. ahead of their biggest party of the year? As enthusiasts devoted to Apple prepare to descend on San Francisco next week for the annual Macworld conference, at least two online petitions have collected hundreds of signatures from potential plaintiffs seeking to file lawsuits over claims of defects in the iBook laptop.'" Yay, online petitions, the most effective way to effect change in the world.
The real irony is that the money the plaintiffs spent on a mac (at least part of it) will be going towards funding the legal defense that will make sure consumers get the least out of the law suit.
I decided about a year and a half ago to give apple a chance on their ibook. However, because of consistent problems outside of warrenty, battery failings, and logic board issues, I figured Apple would live up to the name they built for themselves. All I can remember is that Apple stood for reliability and dependence, that I should "Switch." Unfortunately, because I've shared all the problems mentioned within the article, and because the customer service departments have been of no help, the first mac I ever bought will now be my last. From a business standpoint, Apple cannot afford to alienate all of us first time users. At 20 years old, I have quite a few more computers to pick up in the coming years, and unless things change - they'll be anything BUT macs... -tw- "All my favorite singers stole all my favorite lines." =AK3=
suck my ping!
And, if your reading this Mr BlackCider, they did recall a few things already (making your bad-recall-press rant in your Open Letter a bit moot), like the powersupply for the G3 and the replacement plan for noisy G4's. Hopefully they address this and all you iBook users out there with this problem get a solution, soon.
Out of the computers I've owned in, let's say, the past twelve years, only one has never had any sort of problem - and it was a Compaq. Last time I checked, Compaq wasn't exactly well known for well-built computers. The computers that have had something wrong include an Epson, an Acer, a Gateway, two Apples, and probably another one or two that I can't remember.
Even though my two main Macs have had one problem each, Apple's technical support has been nothing short of stellar. I purchased a PowerMac in August of 2002. The machine had some display problems. Apple two-day shipped me a replacement video card and DIMM. After those didn't solve the problem, I had to take the machine into a shop. Once I got the machine back (it apparently had a bad processor daughter card), I found that the local shop had broken my video card. Apple overnighted me a new video card - a video card better than my original one.
I'm sure my story isn't indicative of everyone's experiences with Apple's technical support, but I'm also sure that Apple's high technical support marks from major computer magazines isn't illusory, either.
http://ipodbatteryfaq.com/
Apple has also had trouble in the past with iBook power adapters. Apparently when some people plug in their iBooks, sparks start flying from the port. When confronted, Apple denied the problem existed, and even removed posts on the support forums related to it.
WARNING: If accidentally read, induce vomiting.
i bought a g3 ibook little over a year ago. a week before the warranty ended, the screen started going blank. i got the extended warranty, but was a little pissed with not having my computer for a week. then, i bought a new g4 ibook, and less than 2 months pass, and the trackpad is all screwed up. so i send it back to. so they fix it. but, i am more than a little pissed. now, i can only think, when is the next thing gonna go out on me. apple is trying to enter the lower cost field, but at what cost?
My problem? I was perfectly gruntled, until some numbnuts came by and dissed me.
I just sold my old G3 (just out of warranty) iBook on Ebay and bought a new G4 model. I sold it back in November, and the girl who bought it emailed me asking about viruses or something. Said that it acted all strange and then died, and when she tries to turn it on she gets a blank screen. It turns out the symptoms it has are that of a failed logic board. Warranty ran out in sept, and it just died now.
Apparently the cost of replacing the board through apple is almost as much as just buying a new laptop. I feel kinda bad about it. But I guess that's the risk you run when you buy things out of warranty, which is part of the reason I got rid of it (which is the reason I used to justify buying a new toy). I hope it's not the logic board and just something that can be fixed easily, but all signs point to hardware failure.
Need Free Juniper/NetScreen Support? JuniperForum
Apple's own boards are buzzing with hundreds of posts. But the real action is at Macintouch.com and MacFixit.com, where both owner experiences and technical analysis are being shared as people try to understand why this is happening and decide what to do. If you have a problem iBook, try there. If you are thinking of an iBook purchase, better look there, too.
Why all the commotion? Simple: lots of iBooks broke down, then they broke down again, and through it all Apple has kept mum. Now, it's one thing when software, like Windows, performs crappily; people will endure an awful lot of that. When their shiny months-old laptop is going back for the second, third, or fourth logic board replacement, however, they tend not to be so forgiving.
Having heard about this a long time ago it seems to me that the people organizing this crap are just doing it for the publicity. They get to whine and people will pay attention to them.
The iPod battery problem is pretty absurd. I've miraculously fixed more than one iPod whose owner knew beyond any doubt their iPod battery was dead. A bug in the 1.x firmware causes the iPod to not wake up if the battery charge drops to zero. All that is required is a few minutes charging and a hard reset, holding down menu+play/pause for a few seconds.
That isn't to say several people haven't really had their battery die. In the case of a truly dead battery there's always been a few options. Since the second generation iPod's release there's been iPod batteries available for sale from various retailers. Besides retailers there's always been AppleCare available for the iPods. It costs $60 for an extra two years of warranty coverage. That is $60 for three years total of battery replacement and any other sort of repairs. You don't even need to buy it when you buy the iPod. Whining about not being willing to protect a $300-500 investment is a bit absurd to me.
The situation is similar for the iBooks. Having a major hardware component die is absolutely no fun. However this sort of failure is something that would be covered and has been covered under the hardware warranty. If people with failed logic boards did have AppleCare they'd be up and running again in under a week. Instead they want to rant and rave and make money selling t-shirts.
I'm a loner Dottie, a Rebel.
It depends on their level of problem tolerance. Some folks don't count having to reboot a few times or being required to practice safe computing (don't run attachments and so forth) as "Trouble with their system."
This isn't to say that there arn't any incoherant diehard zeolots out there but due to the folks with a high tolerance for computer problems it appears that there are more of them than there are.
Go here to create your own Slashdot dis
In December, I received two awards for classes I was a part of (and did not even know I was a part of). One was a check for $1.00 from a credit card I had many years ago that had apparently not properly disclosed all the fees. The other was a $5.00 discount on my next domain registration from Register.com for having the gaull to put a "website comming soon" default instead of giving visitors to my domain a 404 when there was no index.html to view.
The winners in both suits were the suits (pardon the pun).
If these consumers want to punish Apple with hundreds of thousands in legal fees and bad press then they are on the right track. If they want free batteries or better iBooks, then they should look elsewhere.
I only came here to do two things; kick some ass, and drink some beer...looks like we're almost out of beer.
Here in the Netherlands (not sure about the rest of the EU) it is mandatory by law for a company to extend the warranty with 3 months after a product has been repaired and returned to the customer. This extension is not cumulative, if the standard warranty doesn't yet expire for at least three months after the repair, there is no further extension, as far as I know (unless the repair time takes too long, in which case the customer should also be compensated).
If a similar law were to apply in the US as well, then I'm sure Apple would think twice about shoving this problem under the carpet, since not taking action would possibly cost them more money in fines and legal expenses than if they just fixed the ibooks even though they're just out of warranty. Not to mention the reputation and goodwill that would be at stake.
Is there a similar law in the US? Knowing how little the US government protects consumers from malevolent companies, there probably isn't.
Call us communists, but the simple fact remains that corporate interests are often not the same as consumer's interests. The customer's rights should be defended, and there is definately a role for the government to play here.
"Oooh, does that mean we get to kick some puffy white mad zionist butt?"
I have been buying apple product for decades, and have had machines die at various stages of their life-cycle. I have also bought products from other manufacturers. I find it fair to say that this wanker doesn't really seem to have anything close to a complaint.
I have NEVER had Apple refuse service durring the warranty period, and their work has been exemplary. I have had machines die before and after the warranty period, and it is rarely problematic to have them serviced. AppleCare is a good deal, although I haven't bought it for all my machines -- and when I don't, I attribute it to my own bad judgement/luck, rather than blaming the failure to buy the very reasonable extended warranty.
I would be frankly astonished if there was any legal cause of action for a post-warranty failure that Apple refused to fix for free. Apple's warranty and service are comparable to that of the industry at large, better than some and not as good as others, but certainly not an unreasonable business practice.
The guy's website seems more like whining to me than a legitimate complaint.
Apple's extended warranty program is very reasonable and their service quite fine. I'm really not sure what you are expecting from this rather straightforward business deal:
1) you pay a price for a computer. It is warranted to be free of material defects for a year, and they promise to repair or replace it during that period for free;
2) if you would like them to support the machine thereafter, you can pay a few hundred dollars to extend that warranty for an additional three years, more than the usual lifetime of any reaonable personal computer;
3) if you don't, Apple WILL repair your machine on a case by case basis -- they will fix a machine in generally ok condition for a fixed fee and, except for certain serious problems, that fixed fee (just a bit more than the AppleCare purchase by the way) will get you a virtually refurbished machine back.
That WAS the deal -- it was black and white. You didn't take the deal, and now have a machine that needs to be repaired. I understand that you would rather not pay for it. Aside from that, what, exactly, is your complaint?
Go to Blackcider.com, and read the "letter to CEO".
I'm a tech for a school district, and I can tell you this problem is real and very very severe.
We have just about every kind of mac ever made, and overall their quality is outstanding. New imacs, old imacs, old clamshell ibooks, etc.
The MLB issue these dual USB ibooks are having are much worse than you'd imagine. We have about 150 of them, and we fully expect every one of these to die at least once. We've logged about 70 logic board replacements so far. Some machines have had two boards already.
My observations so far:
1. the average "useful" life span of a Mac is 3-4 years (over a PC 2-3 years) before upgrading to a faster machine, even if it has not failed. * implies normally Mac are better built.
2. If it is your primary machine and you are crap about backing up etc then you should get Apple Care. * just common sense..
3. It is unfair, but if your machine goes down out of warranty.. tough. When you buy a camcorder or huge TV you spend a similar amount of money, there is only a Limited Warranty too. * Just a game of numbers. There will be people who have no extended warranties and have their goods performing flawlessly for years. Think bell shaped curve.
4. FINALLY.. has anyone studied the failure of harware that is covered within an extended warranty? It would be interesting to see what the average life of hardware is!! And whether there is a price point where extended warranties are worth their money!
My conclusion, shit happens. Read reviews.. pick the best system for your needs at a price point you can live with.. If the product is pivotal to your work/life have backups.. Automate things..
I've got a copy of Apple's 10-Q SEC filing for the three month period ending June 28, 2003 here in front of me. During that period, according to page 29, Apple shipped 190,000 iBooks.
According to the current frong page of "Black Cider", 1209 people have signed up for their alleged class action law suit. Presumably, most of those people are legitimately having serious hardware problems with an iBook that they bought during the last year.
Assuming that iPod sales don't vary wildly by season (and their 9-month number, 509,000, shows that this is a valid assumption), then we can guess that Apple shipped somewhere in the neighborhood of
4 * 190,000 = 760,000
iBooks in the last year. If you ask me, a failure rate of
1209 / 760,000 = 0.0000827
or 0.00827% speaks pretty darn well for Apple hardware reliability.
Yes, surely there are plenty of people out there having problems who haven't even heard of this law suit. By the same token, there are surely plenty of problems that Apple has resolved amicably. Therefore, the number above isn't really a failure rate, but instead the rate of seriously disgruntled iBook consumers.
If I were considering a major purchase and the salesperson supplied numbers showing me that there was a 99.99% chance that I'd be happy with the product, I think I'd reach for my credit card.
I swear, the only thing that I can think of to explain these issues people have with Apple support is that they go in acting like an asswipe. I have dealt with Apple Care on numerous occasions from 1996 to now, for various reasons, be it personal or work related and I have only once encountered a person whom I felt was unhelpful, and the situation was remedied by hanging up and calling again. If you are polite with tech support and explain and cooperate with them, they have always been more than helpful in repairing and replacing parts.
A great example is I had an old clamshell iBook which was dropped and the latch which closed the CD-ROM door had broken. I called Apple, and technicaly speaking, drop damage is not covered by waranty, but when I explained what had happened, they gladly offered to repari the drive, and sent me an overnight box. 4 days later I got the iBook back with a new CD-ROM drive, and a note saying they had noticed some cracks starting in the front svreen bezel and had replaced that too. Free of charge.
And I'm not the only one, I know plenty of people that have never had a bad experience with Apple tech support, and I know others that could only tell you of one instance. I am led to believe that people are just stupid about what they're doing and they act like assholes to tech support.
T Money
World Domination with a plastic spoon since 1984
IANAT.
But I am an owner of three Macs (currently), past owner of several more and happy iPod owner.
I've never bought AppleCare on any of my machines because literally nothing hardware-related has ever gone wrong with them. I'm serious - no bad PSUs, no dead pixels (not even one), no nothing. I haven't had a kernel panic since OS X's Public Beta. And I am not shy about cracking boxes open and throwing in extra hardware, though I haven't broken out a soldering iron. Yet.
These disgruntled Mac folks probably have gotten used to similar experiences, and when they get a taste of real PC medicine they cry foul.
Go stuff it, you troublemaking bastards. You read the warranty information - or if you didn't you deserve what you get. Did you buy an extended warranty that would cover your complained-of problems? No? You really expect Apple's products to last forever, even though the company uses nearly all industry-standard equipment? You expect Apple's Li-Ion batteries to magically outlast the identical competition?
Take your licks and quit spreading accusations, petitions and talk of lawsuits. Or even better, go buy from another company and bring your unreasonable dissatisfaction with you. If you're not willing to recognize that an out-of-warranty personal computer (or MP3 player) is your responsibility alone... I guess you're not really a Mac person.
It seems like a lot of comments are complaining that the people with problems with their iBooks are just bitching and moaning and want someone to listen to them whine about it. Several others have pointed out that Apple's support is (usually) very good and will fix anything under warranty, pretty much with no questions asked. However, I think some of these people are missing something important.
I have no complaints about Apple's support at all. Quite the opposite, actually; the people I've dealt with on the phone have been extremely helpful, and when I've had to send my iBook in to be repaired, it's been returned to me so quickly that they must've fixed it and put it back in the mail immediately after it reached them. They've even replaced part of the case that was scratched while they were fixing other unrelated things.
The problem isn't with how wonderful their support department is or how they're willing to fix anything at no cost (as long as it's under warranty). The problem, for me at least, is that in the year I've had my iBook, I've been unable to use it for a significant amount of the time while it's being repaired. This past fall, during the most recent period it was in for repairs, I counted all the things that had gone wrong with it and determined that it's had a major hardware failure that made it completely unusable every 55 days since I bought it. I hardly ever travel with it, and I'm very gentle with it. It doesn't take any kind of abuse at all, unlike some people's laptops, but it still manages to be completely useless far too much of the time.
I brought my iBook with me on vacation last spring to work on some programming projects to pass the time while traveling, and it died the day after I left. By now, almost a year later, I can't trust that my computer, which I paid over $1000 for, will work long enough that I can start and finish a project on it before it up and dies on me, and although Apple has taken good care of me and fixed it repeatedly, they obviously haven't solved the problem, since it keeps happening over and over and over. There are hundreds, maybe thousands, of people with similar stories to mine. This is the problem.
I'm not asking for Apple to do anything special for me or to give me any kind of special treatment. I just want the computer I paid for to work for more than a few weeks at a time. If something goes wrong once in a while and I have to have it fixed, I can understand that, but if replacing the same part (the logic board) a couple times doesn't solve the problem, I don't want them to keep pretending that trying again a third, fourth, or eleventh time is going to make a difference if there's something fundamentally wrong with the design or manufacturing process.
All I want is a solution to whatever it is that's wrong with this generation of iBooks (which I am otherwise completely happy with, when mine works) so I can use it normally without being panicking and worrying that it's broken again whenever I see some kind of rendering or display artifact on the screen. I'm sure the poor support people at Apple would be happy to be done dealing with me calling in on a regular basis so they can take a break.
I've owned a bunch of Apple laptops: a Duo 210, a PowerBook 5300c, an iBook 500MHz & and iBook 800MHz. The only one that did not need repair at some point was the 500MHz iBook, and I only kept that for a year and a half.
There was a problem with the Duos where the keyboard was excessively mushy. Apple created some sort of repair extension program for that, and I got it taken care of for free when I brought the Duo in to a dealer to have a modem installed. That Duo ran like a champ until I sold it.
The 5300 series, everyone knows what crap they were. I had screen hinge problems and bezel separation problems, all kinds of crap. Apple instituted a 7 year repair extension program for those. Toward the end of it they did a trade-in offer for remaining 5300 owners to get a discount on a G3 Powerbook. I had sold my 5300c on eBay long before that, though, because I didn't need a laptop any longer.
In June 2001 I bought the 500MHz iBook, it ran problem-free for the 18 months I had it and went everywhere with me in my backpack when I was working. Sold it a year ago on eBay for only $200 less than I paid for it.
A year ago I bought an 800MHz iBook. About a month ago, I ran into the display problem everyone's bitching and moaning about, but I had not heard of this being a frequent problem back then. My iBook was still within warranty by a few weeks. I called the support line without a chip on my shoulder about it. The guy on the other end was friendly and professional. He also spoke intelligible English, because he was American-- a major plus after dealing with Dell support for one of my clients. He walked me through some tests, agreed that the unit was hosed, and dispatched a box. I got my iBook back a week later, good as new. I also bought AppleCare while I was on the phone with him. Like I said, I wasn't aware of the frequency of this problem at the time-- but I figured that if I sold this iBook to upgrade to a newer Apple laptop, the extended warranty would be a nice selling point. Likewise, if I kept it for 3 more years and something went wrong, I'd be covered.
To sum up, in my experience, when Apple has a widespread defect like this, they eventually do the right thing. The best example is their program to do free repairs on the PowerBook 5300 defects for an extraordinary seven years from the date the model was discontinued, followed by trade-in offers for a discount on new equipment.
As for these iPod battery whiners, though, I say tough shit. It's a *battery*. Batteries will eventually cease to do their job and need to be replaced. Most will last as long as their manufacturer (who is NOT Apple, BTW) intended. Some will go well beyond that. Some will fail right away, within your warranty, and some will die sooner than manufacturer spec but after your iPod warranty. Them's the breaks.
~Philly
I had an ibook with a failing backlight (it was a motherboard problem though, not a cable) . After inspecting it it seemed like the problem was in an inner layer of the board, so not really easy to solder. Applying pressure on the board did make it work properly, so a few inches of electric tape later and I got me a cheap ibook!
I agree that a machine should last more than 1 year. Most Macs generally do -- I have some that are decades old and still working fine. My early Apple ][ (not plus or e) still works fine. So what?
The question is whether Apple is bound, legally or otherwise, to repair an out-of-warranty machine. Answer is clear legally. Morally, they are on no higher or lower ground than any other corporation responsible to its shareholders -- they generally do not.
Apple provides an effective four year warranty, one year for free, three more for a few hundred bucks if you don't destroy the machine before you buy.
It is one thing to "expect your equipmnt to work longer than the warranty is valid." It is another to expect legal or other recourse when it does not.
That's the deal.
I'm on my second powerbook. One of the things apple hardware has going for it is that it depreciates very little. So take advantage of this. Right before your 1 year warranty expires, sell the notebook in good condition on Ebay. You will recover most of what you spent on it. Take the amount you lost(likely a few hundred plus taxes), then subtract the substantial cost of AppleCare. We won't put a value on the percieved value of hassles getting Apple to actually fix things. (hey, Apple, hardware reputation, Slashdot, toilet?)
Take the money and go buy a brand spanking new Powerbook. It'll be faster, pretty, AND it'll come with the new version of the operating system you'd have to pay for anyway. Don't forget to include that in the cost total.
Amortize the lost cost over that year. You'll find in most cases it is much less than 100 dollars/mo.
..don't panic
I've had an iBook G3 for more than two years now with *gasp* no problems!
My friend owned a Ford Pinto for 10 years with no problems.. obviously that means there is nothing wrong with the Pinto's design.
My workplace has about 15 Dell Latitude L400s. We got the three year extended warrantee on these things, and let me tell you, it's been well worth it. I believe that 8 of them have had motherboard replacements, 2 of them more than once. The fans have been swapped on every single one. The hard drives have been replaced on at least 7, and that's not counting the ones where people got larger hard drives so it's not on the original hard drive anyway.
There isn't a single week that goes by that I don't have to deal with one of these things shutting down, restarting spontaneously, overheating, making enormous amounts of hideous noise, or basically being contrary.
You know what? I can't find a single angry web site telling people not to buy Dells because of these Latitude L400s. I certainly can't find any lawsuits.
But since it's Apple, people expect the hardware to be absolutely perfect. And when it's not, they expect out of warrantee service for free. ('This product is warranteed against manufacturing defects for the period of one year'. Not 'this product is warranteed against manufacturing defects forever, and for any old way you can fuck it up including dropping it six feet onto concrete for the period of one year'.)
I honestly don't understand it. Are Apple fanatics really just that much more unrealistic than people who buy Windows machines? I mean, I'm a big Apple fan, even worked for them for a while, but I don't expect Apple's stuff to be perfect. And, from my experience, it's definitely better than the alternatives already.
-fred
Sign #11 of Slashdot overdose: You see the phrase 'moderate Republican' and you wonder if that would be a +1 or a -1.