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RFID Casino Chips
scubacuda writes "Could casinos be the next Gillette or Wal-Mart? New Scientist and others report that casinos could soon start using RFID tags to spot counterfeits and thefts, and also to monitor the behaviour of gamblers. Embedded RFID tags should make the chips much harder to counterfeit, and placing tag readers at staff exits could cut down on theft by employees.
(With companies like Infosys helping clients identify and plan pilot RFID projects, we'll no doubt be seeing more and more companies dabbling in this area. Those interested in reading objections to RFID use should check out the position paper issued by CASPIAN, EPIC, Privacy Rights Clearinghouse, Junkbusters, ACLU, Meyda Online, EFF, and PrivacyActivism.)"
They can more easily monitor your swing of bet levels......
Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
So they now have to stop in the kitchen to wrap that stack of $100.00 chips in tinfoil before they leave...
rfid is not a theft prevention solution for small items.
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
...as long as they let me RFID their cards...
Doesn't it make you feel good to know that our freedoms are protected by politicans, lawyers and journalists.
they'd have to add a *lot* more infrastructure to link you to the chips- eveytime you lost a bet, they'd need to checkin your chips, when you won, they'd need to checkout chips to you, etc. imagine that at someplace like a craps table. and of course, you'd need to sign up first just to be able to bet. ain't gonna happen.
The real news here is that it took them so long! I sort of assumed they were doing this kind of thing already -- the fraud prevention stuff goes without saying, but I'm surprised they haven't been analyzing playing patterns with this technology too.
As soon as you walk into a casino you're already under the eye of man many cameras monitoring the place. What will this add? I mean Casinos are already Big Brother incarnate, All RFID chips will mean is that you can't cheat.
This is a great use for RFID tags. Watch all the chips, watch where the move, and track which ones I have.
I love to go to the casino and play card games like Blackjack or more importantly Craps. Accurate tracking of chips tagged to me would mean two things: accurate comping and the ability to have a technical solution to ensuring payouts are correct.
Those of you who have played craps at a busy table will know what I mean -- the accuracy of your payouts when you win is always in the hands of the "dealer" working your half of the table. I've been payed wrong many times, sometimes in my favor, sometimes not. Sometimes money comes in from bets I forgot I had on the table, sometimes I wonder if I got missed on a payout.
If this means that questioning a missed payout can be more accurate or means at a minimum the casino can see in aggregate when they have someone working the table who consistently makes payout errors, more power to them.
This isn't a privacy issue. If you think you have one spec of anonymity or privacy in a casino, you're nuckin futs.
This really changes the scrupulous image that the casinos had going for them.
As such, they are free to do whatever they like to stem losses, gain advantage over customers, etc.
If you don't like it, you can go to another casino that doesn't use RFID chips. Ain't America grand?
The chips are the private property of the Casino... don't they have a right to do anything they please with them? Granted, they should post a notice on the doors saying "Warning, chips protected by RFID", but if having your chips tracked bothers you, simply don't gamble there. RFID itself is not the problem; using fraud or coercion to trick or force people into being tracked against their will would be a problem.
"Freedom means freedom for everybody" -- Dick Cheney
It's finally happened. The SlashThink phenomenon of "RFID is bad" has officially deteriorated into irrelevancy. This time, we're apparently supposed to think that RFID in casinos has something to do with our rights. It doesn't, and shouldn't. Nobody goes into a casino against their will, and nobody should be surprised that casinos exist for the sole purpose of tracking and taking money. For casinos to *not* use RFID to their advantage would be stupid and irresponsible.
I doubt they care too much if you take the chips out of the casino. After all, chips that go away don't have to be converted back into cash -- it's just that much extra profit.
What they don't want is for you to walk out the door with a stack of $1 chips and bring them back made to look like $100 chips. Presumably the RFID would also make it easier for them to detect fake chips that had never been in any casino before.
(Posting anonymously under fear of karma loss from that knee gently jerking back and forth in the Slashdot community. "Ahhhh! He's not agreeing with my anti-RFID stance! Heretic! Mod him down!")
How does this even remotely relate to "your rights"? Casino chips are the equivalent of "disney cash" in theme parks, IE under normal circumstances they are only used within the casino itself. Preventing loss would make the casino more money, and they might even use that to raise your pay tables when you're gaming.
The articles mention monitoring gamblers, but come on... you're in a casino! Your movements are tracked by a hundred cameras from the time you walk in to the time you walk out. Casino employees on the floor are designed to monitor your movement and habits and either 1) ask you to leave or 2) give you a free buffet coupon, depending on what you are doing. You have no privacy whatsoever and very little anonymosity in a casino. Sometimes that works out to your advantage.
Yes, there are bad uses for RFID. I don't see this as being one of them. Next thing you know people will be crying out because a warehouse wants to use RFID on crates for inventory control.
Oh, wait...
No more Wayne Newton. No more free drinks (except a swig from that bottle of Thunderbird that Louie always has lying around). And not even a remotely comparable level of hookers.
I'm going to go cry now.
And also watched by the government gaming commissions closely, lest their gambling license get taken away or worse.
And you're worried about fucking RFID technology in their chips?
Casinos are one of the few places you should absolutely stay away if you are so paranoid like that.
SIG:Slashdot: indymedia for nerds.
This most likely will happen.
I used to work doing data visualisation for casinos - nice pretty visualisations showing slot machine usage. It was a huge hit with the casinos that used it. Most casinos use customer cards you see - you earn bonus points for awards if you put your card in the reader of the slot machine while you play. That allows the the casino to track your slot machine spending. More importantly it allows you to create visualisations of slot activity broken down by demographics (of course they collect a few personal details when they assign you your awards card...) so that they can better direct promotions, reorganise the slots on the floor (knowing where to place a bank of new slot machines can be worth a few million dollars!) etc.
The big problem was that while you could track turnover volume on the gaming tables, you just couldn't track the movement of players very well - there was just no information on that. With this they can have you swipe your awards card when you collect your chips, then watch those chips disperse about the tables. More importantly they can track the ebb and flow - movement vectors for the chips about the floor - that can be very useful information.
This will be a huge boon to the casino industry, who are always lookign for that new way to fleece a few more dollars of the statistically ignorant.
Jedidiah.
Craft Beer Programming T-shirts
It is illegal to "pass chips" at casinos in Missouri (ie, Kansas City "boats" as they are called). Presumably to track how much you bet. They also do macro-monitoring (if you call RFID tags micromonitoring) of chips. They fill a card out with your name and some other info when you first sit down at a table, after you give them your casino card, which is a credit card like card. this card also tracks your spending/winning and keeps track of "compensation" "awards" called "comps" by regulars i think.
RFID tags won't be much different. Who cares really?
It's not like they'll be tracking you with their chips at the grocery store.
No, they'll be tracking you at the tables. "Comps" are bestowed based on how much money you wager. If the chips are associated with you when they're sold, then they can track where and when you wagered it and comp you accordingly.
One man's -1 Flamebait is another man's +5 Funny.
RFIDs can be used for good. My Ford Focus ZTW has a RFID chip on the key. If the correct ID isn't there the car won't (and shouldn't atleast) start. Adding extra keys and programming them is a simple task too.
IMO this shouldn't raise the same concern that the Wal-Mart problem does, which could be a real nightmare.
"And a voice was screaming: 'Holy Jesus! What are these goddamn animals?'" - HST
Those gamblers smart enough to play with a players card (slot club) so that they can earn comps and get a slight percentage higher in returns know that they're being tracked. Of course, it's easier to do so at the slot machines where the computers can determine your exact coin-in and convert that to a specific number of points to throw into your club account.
At the tables, the casinos still track an individual's play via the pit bosses. While it's now a fairly automated/computerized instant process, it used to be done all on paper and entered into a system later. Regardless, pit bosses would still evaluate what your average bet was, determine the approximate number of hands per hour that you were playing, and then give you a rating. I don't foresee this process changing, as this allows the casinos to use a bit of fudge factor to favor some guests more if they're tipping, friendly, and happy versus the mean grouchy players.
What other benefits can the casino do by tracking individual chips? What about being able to monitor how a chip moves from game to game? Will it allow casinos to cut down the number of pit bosses? (probably not, for other reasons such as security) Are more chips moving from the blackjack tables to the pai gow poker tables? Would this affect gaming decisions that the casino makes regarding the blackjack rules, so it keeps players at the table longer? How about making the whole betting process more automated by being able to verify the total amount of money in a stack of chips? And, it's one more way to prevent cheaters from late-posting bets on the roulette table.
As others have already said: casinos are one place where you can expect to be watched no matter where you go or what you do. You already sacrifice some amount of privacy just by entering a casino in the first place.
So, say you have a really good night...you cash out $9999, walk out with the rest...cash it out in small doses over time so you stay under the $10K radar. That way, all cash.....hard to track that.
Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
File-sharing: Sure there are illegitimate uses for the technology, but there are a few legit uses. DON'T BAN IT.
RFID: Sure there are a few legit uses for the technology, but there are illegitimate uses. BAN IT!
They'll almost certainly assign a unique ID to each chip. So, if you turn in a bunch of chips that all have the same id number, it would be like going into the bank and depositing $1000 in twenties all of which have identical serial numbers.
If, as you seem to suggest, you compile a list of valid ID numbers, they can still get you because they could store data on where the chip is located. If the computer tells the cashier that half the chips you're turning in are supposed to be in the vault, you're busted.
Rank Presidents by th
I manage to avoid the surveillance problem and keep all my money by the simple expedient of not entering their establishment.
OK, they're using RFID tags in their own property to at the very worst, track your behaviour while on their property.
They're NOT putting these in items you buy, they're NOT using them to track you out the door, and they DO have a very real need to prevent counterfeits. There's increased security for them, and no invasion of privacy for their customers.
Where's the problem here? Geez, between this and the "forged colour mars photos," it MUST be a slow news day.
Oh, wait--both of these were posted by Michael. Interesting...
"People who do stupid things with hazardous materials often die." -- Jim Davidson on alt.folklore.urban
And why do you think you'll only be tracked while on the casino property? Most people who go to Vegas stay there for several days, and keep their chips with them when they leave the casino for the night, until it's time to go home. They don't cash out at the end of every session. Most casinos will in fact accept chips from other casinos. You can use Luxor chips at Caesars, and so forth. You can bet that the Caesars will install the equipment to install Luxor's and everyone else's. So you'll be tracked no matter what casino you go in. For that matter, every local restaurant may also install equipment to read the RFID's and they'll track you too.
Worst of all, the local muggers may also get RFID equipment. Walk past one on the sidewalk on the way to a restaurant with $3000 in chips in your pocket, and the mugger will know the demonination, serial number, and issuing casino of every chip. It makes their target selection a lot more efficient. They could even give you an automatically printed receipt to file with your police report, but somehow I don't think they'll do that.
Sheesh.
Casino chips are not something that the casino sells to you. You borrow them as an alternate counting mechanism. Putting RFID tags on THEIR OWN PROPERTY that STAYS THEIR PROPERTY, and STAYS ON THEIR OWN PREMESIS to prevent theft is fine. I'd say the same about museums putting RFIDs on those portable audio players and headphones they give you to walk around exhbits with, or shopping carts at grocery stores. It's theirs, it stays theirs, it stays on premeisis, they have a right to protect themselves against theft.
That is NOT the case if something is being actually sold to me. Ownership is changing hands at WalMart or wherever you shop, and I don't want something that is becoming MY property to come with auto-tracking mechanisms. If I want an auto-tracking system, I'll damn well install it myself.
But at a casino, what is being sold is entertainment, not poker chips. The chips are on-premesis loaned use, and so tracking those against theft is perfectly legitimate. Ownership is not changing hands, so RFIDs are not infringing on my property or privacy rights.
--GrouchoMarx
Card-carrying member of the EFF, FSF, and ACLU. Are you?
between RFIDs in something I OWN AND PAID FOR, and RFIDs in something that I AM ONLY BORROWING.
Now, if casinos sell souvenir (poker) chips... hopefully those wont have active (rfid) chips in them.
Hell, they should put RFIDs in rental DVD/VHS cases, so they can track down the bastard who hasn't returned that one copy of THX1138.
Actually, inventory departments of companies might do well to RFID their equipment, especially with a wireless network full of floating laptops...
Terrorists can attack freedom, but only Congress can destroy it.
casinos and gambling can be entertaining and fun. if you sit down at a blackjack table with $40, a few people you know, and spend three hours there chatting with folks and having fun, thats not entirely bad entertainment even if you lose all $40. if you walk away with all your money you've gotten a few hours of free entertainment. if you're a little lucky and a bit smart you can make some pocket change or coffee money for the week. there's always the possibility you walk away with a few hundred dollars, which ads to the entertainment value.
always gamble responsibly though. the worst is people who get addicted and gamble away their family's food or rent money.
You can't count cards, or attempt to use legitimate mean to gain information about cards to improve your bets. The odds for the games are set by the casinos and changed at their will. If you win too much you probably won't be allowed to play. Collecting RFID chip data on bettors in the casino is no worse than anything else the casinos do - it's another step to improve their bottom line at the expense of the people who (legally) are most likely to cost them money. There should be no expectation of fairness at the games in the casion - because there is none. The only sense of fairness is (to modify a Clancy quote) "Fair means I get all my money back, and f*** everything else." If you're going to a casino, you had better have fun, because the likelyhood of getting ahead of the casinos on a consistent basis is probably low.
RFIDs in this case are reasonable because:
1) information of the movements of their chips on their property is reasonable -as long as they don't track my movements elsewhere I'm OK with them.
2) this is similar to data they already acquire and use (it is no worse than other things casinos already do).
3) the chips have legitimate uses in thwarting people who cheat (by most people's definitions, not just the casinos) - they can stop people from increasing bets late, etc.
The game is not much more rigged against you than it was before, and your freedoms outside the casinos haven't be eroded by this use of RFIDs in this context.
I probably should have made this a reply to the topic rather than you in particular, but I agree with your sentiment for the most part. If I had fun at casinos or betting, I might go, but I don't, so there's no point. Playing a rigged game and expecting to get paid is transparently stupid - it's little like going to your local mob boss to be a better criminal. If you're no good, he'll take your money. If you are good, you won't get paid, other than maybe in concrete blocks and small lead weights.
in a case like this, this is an excellent use for RFID. protecting your own property by tracking the stuff that's yours using tags that you put in your own stuff is a perfect way to cut down on theft. in a casino, this is especially important. and having an RFID detector when people cash in makes for a good way to make sure the proper amount of money is redeemed.
i still don't want these things in my jeans.grey wolf
LET FORTRAN DIE!
Mikohn Gaming was working on a similar
concept called safejack (safe blackjack)
since at least 1998. The idea there
was that special chips would "announce"
their value (1,5,25,100, etc.) to a
computerized table so that the back of house
systems knew how much was being bet.
Assuming they have any brains at all, mikohn
probably filed for a patent on this stuff
years ago. The gaming equipment industry
is one big bee's nest of predatory and
defensive patent plays. (I wish I was the
guy with the touch-screen gaming machine patent)
Incidentally, I recall the system also
had a mini-ccd camera under the shoe so it
could also "see" the cards being dealt to
each player.
Seemed like a pretty interesting idea, but
I don't think it ever caught on. Maybe it
was too expensive, or just too far ahead
of it's time?
--chuck
If all the casino chips have microchips inside them then the pick-pockets and muggers along the strip will be able to tell from a distance who has chips in their pockets and be able to home in on them! You can stand by the exit of the casino with a pocket RFID reader and when your PDA lets you know someone just walked by with $10,000 in chips in their pocket you can signal to your heavies down the street!
If intelligent life is too complex to evolve on its own, who designed God?
I submitted Gambling with RFID a day or so ago, but the accepted one is much better. Oddly enough, the company Chipco International makes no mention of RFID chips on their site. I wonder how unhackable those chips are?
One line blog. I hear that they're called Twitters now.
This could have interesting implications with the IRS.
Right now casinos have to report you if you win $1200 or greater on a slot machine, hence the myriad of $1199 jackpots on slots.
In table games they have no reporting requirement (save the $10,000 casino cage transaction report requirement), mostly due to the complexity of tracking wins vs. losses.
If technology makes that simple, does that mean I'll now be taxed on my table game winnings? That the casino will be obligated to report them? Yikes.
RateVegas.com - Vegas Reviews
a situation where I think RFID is the Right Way To Do It(tm). If the casinos are using RFID to verify that the chips are actually thier chips before payout, and to prevent employees from walking out with stolen chips, then that's thier right and this seems a reasonably innocuous measure.
I'm sure that there's lots of people who are crying "invasoon of privacy", etc, but this is one situation where you truly decided to play by thier rules when you walked through that door, and keeping track of thier own property is in no way an invasion of thier employees or thier customers privacy.
Read, L
I was in Vegas last month for business. I had time to kill before a flight, so I sat at the bar and played video poker. I was up 40, down 10, and ended up even.
;)
On the game. I also made out with 4 beers.
Of course, if I had lost $20, it wouldn't have been a big deal - same I would have paid for the beers had I not been gambling.
Casinos make money off of people who GAMBLE. Those of us who bet the minimum can have a good time on the cheap. After all, even on games that only pay out 95%, if you bet $300/hr, you're still only out $15/hr. And the chicks are hot.
paintball
Sure, but if you can't master this simple count, you probably have no chance at a real count. The hard part isn't counting, it's counting in a loud, action packed place where if you make it obvious you get kicked out. If you take odds at the craps table, you are getting some of the best odds in the house.
Degaussing scares the bad magnetism out of the monitor and fills it with good karma.
Come on! It's simple to construct a faraday cage to thwart this.
Now who will be the new up and coming entreprenure who sells 'chip holders' for all those big spenders who want some privacy?
I'd go on a Vegan diet but the delivery time from Vega is too long. --brownkitty
If people are walking around outside with casino chips, all a mugger will have to do is scan them to see which ones are worth the effort of a robbery. No more knocking over some old lady and just getting chump change.