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Microsoft Unhappy With HP's iTunes Decision
rbrandis writes "The general manager of Microsoft's Windows digital media division David Fester has suggested that iTunes' emerging dominance would be bad for consumers, because it would limit them to the iPod, as opposed to limiting them to Microsoft based products. In a moment of what must have been an attempt at ironic humor he said, 'Windows is about choice - you can mix and match software and music player stuff. We believe you should have the same choice when it comes to music services.'"
I think what he really meant is that is would be bad for Microsoft.
Microsoft not happy that people take advantage of their own non-Microsoft monopolies!
Why don't they sue Apple ? Hell, iTunes is bundled with OS X! Because they'll bundle a music store with media player soon enough... and try to kill iTunes completely.
As bad as people may hate Microsoft or Media Player, it does support multiple players and platforms - not just the iPod. A list is available at http://windowsmedia.com/9series/Personalization/Co olDevices.asp.
I am ever so grateful that once again Microsoft is looking after my best interests. We can all sleep well.
Dell says this:
"According to the New York Times, Dell also suggests HP is making a mistake. A Dell spokesman said: "We expect competition and it's good for customers. Over time, however, customers will want industry standard choices.''"
I am no English expert, but it sure sounds like they are tryin to say that WMA should be the only game in town, and are at the same time trying to play it off that they 'want' competition.
Wait.. what? I would fill up the gas in my car if my sister wasn't a lesbian.
What?
iTunes doesn't require you to have an iPod. It works fine on your computer. And it's the only solution that allows you to take the files you buy from it, unprotect them, and turn them into whatever format you want.
I know, you'll call me an Apple apologist. Whatever. I guess I could call you a Microsoft apologist and it would make as much sense.
-- Bill "Houdini" Weiss
Power corrupts. PowerPoint corrupts absolutely. E. Tufte
"We believe you should have the same choice when it comes to music services."
Does anyone else cringe when you see/hear the words "choice" and "Microsoft" in the same sentence?
Sigs are for losers
This is the same 'No American has a God given right to a job' Carly that said that EVERY HP product coming out after Q2 2004 will have DRM built in. Hell, she even wants to make recording like a VCR on your HP impossible unless the copyright holder agrees.
She is no ones friend save for herself and her fellow exec. She thinks nothing of the employers/users/shareholder of HP.
The bottom line is that the iPod and iTunes provides a better user experience.
I had a 5gb 1st Gen iPod, and I now have a Dell DJ (Dell gave me the credit, Apple wouldn't).
I prefer the iPod.
The DJ works ok, but the user experience isn't as good.
There's no way to stop a playing song. Only pause it.
Syncing music is not intutitive.
Navigating through the tracks on the DJ takes FOREVER.
It's just not as well thought out as iTunes and the iPod are.
I'm thinking of selling my Dell DJ on eBay, and buying an iPod or an iPod mini.
Windows is not about choice - it is about having developers and service providers further entrench the Windows hegonomy, with little to no effort on the part of MS.
HP made a choice, as the market seems to be doing as well.
Let's see how well Microsoft lives with this.
Oh, and to all of you who say "Watch how high the price of Windows goes for HP", Microsoft won't dare do anything of the sort. Having both IBM and HP actively looking to kill Windows is not something Microsoft shareholders would appreciate.
Soko
"Depression is merely anger without enthusiasm." - Anonymous
If you can't beat 'em, FUD 'em.
Remember, kiddies, that Microsoft is never about competing. Otherwise, they'd still be working on IE for Mac OS X, instead of complaining that another browser beat them.
Take your toys and go home, I say. We don't want you here.
Mikey-San
Karma: +Eleventy billion (mostly affected by watching Celebrity Jeopardy)
Also,
Slavery is Freedom
and
War is Peace
If I remember my Orwell right.
You can have any color as long as it is black!
- Henry Ford
The best planning can be done after the project completes.
There're two basic methods of Innovation at work here, Apple's brand and Microsoft's. Microsoft wants to leverage the choice of software tools made by third-party developers (that they haven't driven under by co-opting technology from) to promote a "choice" among applications on the Windows platform.
Apple wants to provide the "choice" of a Non-Windows platform and non-Microsoft technology. And Apple, for all their ills as far as co-opting technology in ways distressingly similar to Microsoft, has never been known to utterly decimate the competition or actively belittle or disparage them. What Apple does when they add new features to the OS is to simply set the bar higher for 3rd party developers.
Apple bothers me in some things, but when it comes right down to it, I don't see Apple trying dirty tricks in the background to drive anyone away from creating music services for the Mac platform. Microsoft would just -love- to push vendors into a MS Music Store lock in.
My own pointless vanity vintage computing page
Well I've been using an ipod on a Linux box for the past 3 months and it works great. Check out gtkpod.sf.net and be amazed :)
I hate to point out the obvious, but I use iTunes and I do not have an iPod and I'm sitting in my living room enjoying beautiful music off my stereo that I got from iTunes. All I have to do is burn a disk. La dee dah. One of the biggest misconceptions is that one needs an iPod to use iTunes. Tain't so.
AAC isn't a proprietary Apple technology, and there are other AAC players available.
Microsoft said they were about choice! Now the linux zealots can all flame them on slashdot and go to sleep happy. The apple users can chime in their love for ipods and itunes. The windows fanboys can chime in how wma is surperior and that it will take over and crush apple and linux. Once the rubble has settled the 1862 ogg users can tout a new media format world order and reign for the next 1000 years. Good times a commin'!
If microsoft did this once a month, IT productivity would go up 10%.
Cripes, when did this happen? I'm out of it for a little bit, and Microsoft becomes a spamming outfit! Naked FUD, Enlarge your CHOICE, end-user license SECRETS, listen to music FROM YOUR HOME...
OK, Let's see if I can clear this up for you.
iTunes can handle several different audio codecs. Most of my files are MP3s, but some are AIFFs and some are AAC. That being said, I can sync and listen to ALL my MP3s and AIFF files on ANY player that can understand them. You don't need an iPod to listen to MP3s from iTunes - almost any MP3 player will do.
iTunes Music Store on the other hand only provides AAC encoded content. You must have a device capable of playing AAC files to play this content - or, you can make a playlist, hit "burn" (you don't even need a CD - there is software that can make a "virtual" CD") and you now have all your purchased content in 128 Bit MP3 format. Yes, one extra step, but easy to do and it's then DRM-Free. I do this so that I can play my purchased music on my MP3-enabled CD player in the car or in my office at work. So the long and short of it is, iTunes content isn't only AAC DRM'd Files.
Hope that clears it up. Don't listen to the FUD put out by those who seem to feel threatened by it. iTunes is an excellent player/organizer in it's own right and doesn't need an iPod to work.
"terrorism" and "pedophilia" are the root passwords to the Constitution
The *real* question how soon will it take for some enterprising individual to be able to play the songs they bought on iTunes Music Store under Linux?
Jon of DeCSS fame has already done this.
How many times must people say this, you can easily convert from AAC, AAC is not Apple owned and is an MPEG standard (any company could add AAC to their player if they care to). iTunes music store is the most stress-free and has the best selection of music, therefore the "lock-in" you experience is what you trade in for not wanting to kick someone in the groin for the inconsistent licensing agreements.
It's completely moronic when people blame a company that's doing something that other companies never tried (a better codec, less restricting DRM, seamless integration) all while people are rooting against them. If you're going to blame someone, blame the other companies for not supporting AAC in their players, Apple is already working on Windows Media for iPod.
Except that you aren't REQUIRED to use AAC. There's this other format that iPod will use. Maybe you've heard of it.
It's called MP3.
So much for vendor lock-in. 'Course, if you really want to use AAC, you could use iPod or this from Nokia and while we're talking about Nokia, what about that cool new N-Gage . Then again there's this new model from O2. And of course, it won't be long before you can buy HP's iPod clone.
"We are going to produce a patch that should be up within a week," said Microsoft's David Fester, group product manager for Internet Explorer. "We'll put up that patch as quick as we can."
Internet Explorer Bug Makes a Return Visit
In 1998 he was the management flunky most directly responsible for all those MSIE bugs.
"On the one hand, they say they're pursuing standards, but they're implementing and pushing proprietary technology with their development community," Microsoft product manager David Fester said. "Microsoft has pledged 100 percent standards support for some time. The truth is in the pudding and the products."
Pot, Kettle Black (netscape, microsoft , standards, name-calling)
Wednesday's Windows Media announcements are specific to XP, said David Fester, general manager of Microsoft's Windows Digital Media division. "These are companies that are doing things specifically around XP," he said. "As you know, our Windows Media effort is broader than just XP."
Windows Media announced for MAC/Linux/Solaris (not)
"This is unprecedented, but we realized we need to work together [with Netscape] for the common good. We decided we should not propose separate standards for privacy software." David Fester, Microsoft, June 97
More Outright Lies from David Fester
Tell me again why I want to listen to *anything* this man has to say.
Visit CryptoGnome in his home.
This come from the Iraqi information minister? The Windows people are just shitting their pants because this will mean HP will beat them to market, they will have cooler designs and a better infrastructure in place when the battle for music dominance begins. This is a wedge into their tight little monopoly and they are freaking out. I am sure Apple will find a way to screw this up though.
Apple and HP aren't forcing anyone to buy an iPod, or use the iTunes music store. Yes those things are interdependent, but if you don't like that, show them by buying a different mp3 player, and using whatever software and online music service you want.
Oh yeah, but Apple prevents you from doing that by abusing their overwhelming monopoly in order to get you to do what they want.
No, wait, that's MS...
Except in this case Apple is forcing users to use their superior mp3 player to interface with their superior online music store. And if you don't agree with that appraisal, fine, but then why do you care? Just use something else. If there was any real competition to the Apple/iTMS combination nobody would be whining about this.
iTunes will upload and download songs from many MP3 players, including these.
The only limitation is that you cannot play AAC protected (iTunes music store) files on these third-party players. But a quick capture/rip (or just use Audio Hijack to capture the stream to MP3) takes care of that limitation.
Does this mean that Microsoft is now beleaguered?
Microsoft wants everyone to use their WMA technology, obviously developed by Microsoft.
Apple wants us to use AAC, developed by Dolby.
Last time I looked my stereo, TV, DVD player, Car Stereo, etc etc etc all carry the Dolby logo, not the Microsoft logo.
It's a simple choice.
This is 1984, all over again. Only this time, the roles are reversed.
This is affirmed by the fact that the 1984 ad that was played during MWSF had an iPod digitally grafted on to the woman throwing the hammer.
Apple is now the dominant manufacturer of portable music playback devices and has assumed the role of IBM. The licensing of the iPod and iTMS is a move straight out of the IBM playbook 20 years ago.
Microsoft shipped Internet Explorer 4.0 with Windows 98. Consumers had a choice then on whether or not to use IE... but they used IE.
Now iTunes is shipping with Windows on HP machines. Consumers have a choice on whether or not to use iTunes.
Sounds like the same "choice" as before--so what could Microsoft possibly be worried about? What reason do they have to worry?
You get three guesses, and the first two don't count.
The coolest voice ever.
Apple is only one of many companies *using* AAC. Apple did not invent it. Apple did not invent it. Apple did not invent it.
n dard.html
"AAC was developed by the MPEG group that includes Dolby, Fraunhofer (FhG), AT&T, Sony, and Nokia"
http://www.apple.com/mpeg4/aac/
"MPEG-4 AAC has been specified as the high-quality general audio coder for 3G wireless terminals. Apple Computer has incorporated MPEG-4 AAC into QuickTime 6 and iTunes 4, as well as the latest version of its award-winning iPod portable music player. The Digital Radio Mondiale system (the next-generation digital replacement for radio broadcasting under 30 MHZ) builds on the audio coding of MPEG-4 AAC."
http://www.vialicensing.com/products/mpeg4aac/sta
Napster-to-go says "Fill and refill your compatible MP3 player", which is a lie. It's not MP3. It's WMA with DRM.
iTunes was and is a very bold move to find a way to reach some sort of compromise between the record companies (and RIAA) and the consumers. The manner in which people obtain, manage and listen to their music has changed drastically over the past 5 years and no amount of trying to re-close Pandora's box is going to make things return to what the labels would like to think of as "the good old days". The paradigm shift has started. It takes a great deal of vision, big cajones and some luck to successfully ride the tsunami of a paradigm shift. Needless to say, attempting to do so will gain you a large number of critics, as Apple has witnessed. The whole codec/DRM/player saga is just starting and there are going to be a number of less-than-perfect solutions at first. At least there are some companies willing to stick their necks out to try and find a good answer.
here's the deal. You buy a AAC you can play it on exactly (1) player
Ok, here's the deal. You buy a WMA you can play it on exactly (1) OS.
You buy a WMA you are LOCKED into Windows. So when you want to play that WMA music you bought on your new computer and it'll have to be money sent to Microsoft. That's vendor lock-in.
You buy a AAC you can play it on Windows or OS X.
So AAC is about choice. You see?
Don't iPods already work with Windows?
Well, they did, but Microsoft will have a critical patch out soon to fix that problem.
Otherwise Microsoft is right... Oh wait you can just Burn a CD in iTunes and rip the CD into mp3 right in iTunes. Nevermind cary on nothing to see here.
Microsoft wants to create a platform that is used by every man, woman and child, from the day they are born, in every facet of their life.
By platform I don't just mean Windows desktop PC's... the XBox is one small step for Microsoft, one giant leap for world domination. Consider that Bill Gates' house is one of the most technology-driven pieces of real estate in the world. Imagine if 10 years from now, it was like that everywhere; running all MS software.
Choices MS wants to give you:
What wallpaper do you want?
Will you use XP Home at Home, or be a rebel and use XP Pro?
Will you buy a Dell, Compaq or HP computer to run Windows on?
Which charity would you like to see Bill Gates donate to this year?
The Microsoft Way isn't about eliminating choices; it's about controlling all available choices.
This tactic made is a little bit tough to 'choose' BeOS or OS2 before that.
Easy - Apple doesn't own the copyright to the music and the record companies won't let Apple sell the music unless some form of rights management is in place. If they were allowed to do so, I'm sure they would have preferred to sell raw AAC files without any rights management.
I think its cool that Apple managed to get the record companies to agree on a system as liberal as iTMS. You can burn an *unlimited* number of *unprotected audio CDs* with the only restriction that a particular *playlist* can be burned a maximum of 10 times. (Not a big deal, just make a new playlist with the same songs or, for that matter, just make a copy of the *unprotected audio CD* you already burned 10 copies of!)
You can authorize 3 computers to play the protected files directly and you can backup the protected files to any type of media you like. You can play the protected files on as many iPods as you want, etc...
Little elves in the sky. Very tiny ones. They sprinke the funnyness all over, and it land on every post, but only sticks to the funny ones. Same with the Insightful Angels, Interesting Sprites, Informative Fairies, Troll (what else) Trolls, Flamebait Devils and Redundant Redundant Redundant Orcs.
"Your effort to remain what you are is what limits you."
MS: Where would you be without me? (gollum gollum). I saved us. It was me. We monopolized because of me!
HP: Not anymore.
MS: What did you say?
HP: Apple looks after us now. We don't need you.
MS: What?
HP: Leave now and never come back.
MS: No!
HP: Leave now and never come back!
MS: Arrrgh!
HP: LEAVE NOW AND NEVER COME BACK!
[HP is panting and looking around and realises MS is gone.]
HP: We told him to go away! And away he goes Preciousss. Gone, gone, gone, HP is free!
To play this back, you need to convert it back to raw bits again. Now, you can capture those bits (Audio Hijack does this), and save the file, but it will be huge. (You encoded using MP3 etc becuase you wanted to save space).
If you reencode this with any lossy CODEC, including the 'original', you will lose some more information. Probably enough that you will notice that the quality has degraded.
So, the DRM in AAC stops you making unlimited copies of the original file. (Well, you can copy them, but they will only play on a limited number of machines---keyed to the embedded DRM info.) You can of course burn the tracks to CD---which copies the raw bitstream. You can make an unlimited number of copies of this (though iTunes won't let you make more than 10 copoies of a playlist, but that is mere inconvenience). You can also re-encode using another DRM free CODEC, but if that CODEC is lossy, the quality will be degraded. Probably noticeably.
Note again though: any time you reencode between lossy CODECs, you will lose some quality. This has nothing to do with DRM.
In conclusion, you are right. A copy is going to be lossy, except if you burn to CD (which is easy).
Protoplasm. Quiet Protoplasm. I like quiet protoplasm.
Microsoft keeps using that word... I do not think it means what they think it means.
-- james
You wanna talk drinks? Okay, let's talk drinks.
Let's say 95% of the population were hopelessly hooked to Coke because of unknown addictive agents within it. It tastes like crap - but everybody uses it cause they're hooked. Pepsi tastes way better, but it's not a substitute because you can't get the same fix that you can from the unique taste of Coke. Also, Coke users become extremely hyper and start babbling in a language (Coke-speak) that only other Coke users can understand. Workplaces decide to standardize on Coke-speak, so you must drink Coke if you want a job and be able to communicate.
Because Coca-Cola controls 95% of the drink market, they can raise their prices sky high and get massive profits. Let's say McDonalds objects - they are making crap margins on their "dollar ninety nine" meals already, but what can they do? Even though Coca-Cola is gouging them, McDonalds has no choice. If McDonalds doesn't sell Coke, they will lose 95% of their customers who will go to Burger King (or some other crappy fast food joint) for their Coke fix. So what does McDonalds do? They comply, of course. And other fast food joints, faced with the same dilemma, are also forced to comply to stay in business.
Now initially, McDonalds sold Coke plus a variety of different drinks from some other companies. It did this because to provide variety and because other drinks were cheaper than Coke to resell. Coca-Cola then politely asks McDonalds to include (bundle) its entire family of drinks, such as Vanilla Coke (Office) and to exclude the other companies' drinks. "And if not?" "We will raise your price of Coke", Coca-Cola replies. "What?!" "So don't buy from us then", mocks Coca-Cola. Faced with razor thin margins now (but still manageable) vs. losing 95% of their customers, McDonalds agrees to an "offer it can't refuse".
So then a new company comes along and creates a revolutionary new business based on designer cups (so sue me, I couldn't think of an internet browser analogy in the soft drink world). The new designer cups become really hot and take off all over the world. The new company (let's call it Netscup) becomes really successful.
Coca-Cola sees this new industry and gets jealous. They want a piece of the action. Why not use our addictive drink to force Netscup out of business so that we can monopolize the lucrative designer cup business as well? Coca-Cola has no idea how to make cups, but they try anyway. They are a poor imitation of Netscup's products, but Coke doesn't care, as they are making billions off Coke and can afford to give away the cups for free. Even though the cups are free, people still prefer Netscups because of their superior quality and the originality factor (they were 1st).
Coca-Cola decides it's time to get down and dirty. It contacts all the restaurants and fast food joints and offers them an ultimatum: Coke must be sold (or bundled) in Coca-Cola cups. Furthermore, Coca-Cola decides to "choke Netscup's air supply" by offering incentives (such as a cheaper price of Coke) if Netscup products are *not* sold at the locale. Pretty soon Netscup finds their revenues drying up because all the restaurants turn their backs on them. They are forced to cut prices, and are losing increasing amounts of money every day because Coca-Cola just happens to have Coke. In the meantime, Coca-Cola throws a billion dollars into developing their line of cups, and eventually the cups improve to that state where their quality and their cost (free) are more worthwhile than Netscup's still slightly superior, but more costly (not free) cups. Coca-Cola then goes for the jugular by engineering Coke and their cups so that Coke is only effective when it is served in Coca-Cola cups. Serving Coke in other cups proves to be toxic to the drinker. Coca-Cola then claims in court that Coke and the Coca-Cup are actually one product,
Sorry pal, the most notable engineering effort by Compaq was marketing.
Compaq essentially was a marketing organization and box assembler, which made too much money and bought a couple of enterprise computer companies (in hopes to get a foothold into their customer base).
Digital Equipment (or DEC as we preferred to refer to it) on the other hand was an engineering company (which was later part of its downfall) and the technologies you are referring too where hatched at DEC.
Notable engineering efforts where (leaving away very ancient history) the Alpha AXP chip (which introduced 64bit processing 10 years before Intel could even come up with a workable prototype and Itanium "steels" a lot from alpha), or clustering, which worked seemlessly and transparently in 1988 (probably before that), while other "clustering" technologies, most notably under HP/UX, seem to be a bunch of hacked together scripts, which provide a never ending nightmare (specifically after major migrations). I could continue with some of the best compilers and a development environment, which would still put a lot of modern stuff to shame.
Compaq had no fucking clue what they where getting and they where even more clueless in the realm of enterprise customers relying on rock solid, mission critical iron. Uptimes for such customers (for example the Amsterdam coppers) is measured in thousands of days and they tend to take a dim view on the infamous CTRL-ALT-DELETE "error correction" procedure.
I absolutely agree with your statement regarding miss Fiorino, though.
ich bin der musikant
mit taschenrechner in der hand
kraftwerk
Wow, I could sure go for a Coke now.