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Application-Centricity in Our Schools?
bccomm asks: "Here on Slashdot, we continually hear about new successes in bringing free software closer to the desktop. What about schools? I am a student and was once asked to redo an entire presentation because I had used Prosper instead of PowerPoint. The explanation I received from him was 'the curriculum says I'm supposed to teach Word, PowerPoint, etc, not word processing and presentations.' How is this for irony: presentation has to be about volunteer work/hobbies, and I chose to show that my computer runs a daily NetBSD snapshot. I think it just lost some effectiveness. Is anyone else bothered by this?"
... as stupid as this sounds, if the project were to be done using Word and Powerpoint about your hobbies, you should have at least made the attempt to make it look like you did it on Word and Powerpoint, regardless of your personal viewpoints. The easiest would have been to put it in an MS compatible format when you were doing it so that you could display and turn in what you had to in a form that the teacher would have liked. Being an ex-tutor, there were some stupid things I had to adhere by and one of them was that all electronic documents had to be in an MS readable format for some of the courses (they were A+, Net+, and MCSE courses). Now, being the Linux tutor also, when it came time for things to be done at home (research, projects, etc) the only thing my students had to adhere to was keeping the documents in MS readable formats so that other tutors could review if necessary. This kept everyone happy as they got to work in what they wanted (Linux, BSD, OS/2, Winwhatever, etc) and still kept with course guidelines.
CliffH
sigs are like a box of chocolates, they all suck remove the underscores to email me
I bet they may think differently if they get a few direct complaints from the /. community ...
I think it just lost some effectiveness. Is anyone else bothered by this?
No, I'm not. I think you just can't follow directions and want someone here to make you feel better.
the curriculum says I'm supposed to teach Word, PowerPoint, etc, not word processing and presentations.
Did you take a class on using Microsoft Office and then decide to not use it?
Here before all but 8486 of you.
I, too, have run into this type of problem, although the explanation is usually a compatability issue. "How can I get a copy of this on my computer when all the school supplies is PowerPoint." With so many students it's hard for teachers (especially in subjects outside of technology) to 1) have heard about OpenSource technology 2) have the time install OpenSource projects.
Also, many of my teachers like to distribute the student's presentations later online so that all of the students can view them again, it's also nice for students who were absent. Conflicting formats make this difficult.
You can look at it as indoctrination if you wish, however, I do see a lot of convenience issues that go along with all of this.
This DOES piss me off. These PowerPoint presentations are so mindless. Whenever I'm asked to do a presentation like this, I just use some bloody HTML. FORGET the memory consuming crap. Not only that, I can present from any computer with a browser. And if I want to load the next page at a certain time? META refresh. It's all the same junk. As for Word, I'm tired of getting very specific menu directions from my teachers that don't apply to me. Somebody ought to add some kind of selected word count to OpenOffice, because I have to make a new document to count the words in one paragraph. I will send a link to that "PowerPoint makes you dumb" thingy to my district now...
If someone drops a fort on Will, he makes a reflex save.
In my line of work no one cares if you used power point, or a pointy stick and little dots of colored ink on a membrane of transparent plastic to make a presentation. The end result is what matters. Often you get the idiots that ask "Hey, this dinner was great! You must use really great pots and pans!" Those in education must learn to make their corsework reflect the needs of the real world. Whatever the best tool is for the job, that's what needs to be used. Be it a Micro$oft product or opensource...who cares, as long as the results are what the customer wants. PERIOD.
This guy (assuming a guy) should be praised for using the tools at hand to get the job done. PERIOD.
There are lies, damned lies, and statistics.
So, let me get this straight, you run BSD, and you need to take a class on how to use PowerPoint? Are you some kind of idiot savant, leet enough to grok the command line, but with a crippling mental block that keeps you from being able to intuit your way through what 99% of computerdom considers an easily guessable user interface?
Many opinionated people would say, perhaps prejudicially, that the job of any teaching institution that is not explicitly a vocational/technical training program is to teach principles and not isolated methods; that a good curriculum implements goals which could be accomplished to equal effect with many different tools; that in the rapidly changing landscape of the computer world, such a teaching approach is the only one that's likely to have any serious long-term benefit to students; and that the presence or absence in the curriculum of restrictions to specific applications, OSes, and programming languages is actually good indicator of the quality of a program.
As it happens, I am such a person. Give these bozos hell.
The point of this story is NOT to discuss Open Source in high schools, we're supposed to notice how awesome this guy is because he uses FreeBSD dailies! What's more, he got in trouble for doing a school project wrong! Down with The Man!!!!!! Hooray for bccomm!!!!
Username taken, please choose another one.
(potentially offensive blanket statements follow) I found that in High School, doing better work that required independent thought even though it was not assigned was, in almost every case, not understood and often treated critically. In my experience, at the University the opposite was true. The example above is perfect because it illustrates how, in some cases, following the instructions is more important than actually learning. I never followed instructions well either and my high school grades show it.
-Sean
I've noticed this, too. For handed-in projects which the stupid/clueless/pressed-for-time instructor must open, I try to do a final-pass export to the requested format. Sometimes I've been able/allowed to use PDFs for papers, but mostly I just export to .doc whenever requested. I'm the computer god, I can be the one who worries about formats.
I never, ever use the requested application if I can help it (Access can import and mysql can export, you know...). But that doesn't mean I'm obnoxious about it.. I only mention what I used to the instructors smart enough to not mark me down for it. If they can stand a little mild advocacy, I do that then.
My advice to you: suck it up, export to powerpoint.
I want my Cowboyneal
Yeah, and I wish my neighbors would clean up after their dogs, too.
It's hard to know what to make of your particular issue, since you left out such details as what the subject of the class is. But even giving you the full benefit of the doubt -- there are going to be things in life that are done in a less than optimal way, and your needing to do a presentation in a perfectly appropriate application instead of some new thing you found on Sourceforge is hardly the worst case you'll encounter.
Just be glad they didn't make you do it in Excel.
What I'm listening to now on Pandora...
Maybe you should look around a bit more.
File/Properties
Num Pages, tables, graphics, OLE Objects, Paragraphics, WORDS, Characters and Lines.
Couldn't you take the cheese way out and export from what-have-you, then import to PowerPoint.
A lot of people only know how to use applications. For them, the application's interface is the program - that is what they see, know, and understand. The operation of the machine is summed up in that interaction.
In a school environment, you have to look at the practical picture. What are you trying to achieve by working with these programs? Are you teaching examples of GUI driven tools, the effectiveness of slideshow presentations, how to type, etc? Most of these courses are designed to teach students how to use their computer. This often translates into "how to do task-x with y-program on a computer".
Since Powerpoint is the widespead example and definition of a slideshow app, it seems logical to use Powerpoint and not another program. Forcing one app over another shows a lack of understanding on the institution's part (try not to blame the teacher) if the end result is the same. If students learn how to make slideshow presentations effectively, isn't that the goal? If this is Microsoft Office training, the end result is not entirely the same. Also, there are technicalities with different apps which might make the teacher exert more effort just to accomodate a few students. I am not saying this is bad/good, but I can understand wanting to do things one way, even with sacrifices.
It all depends on what the goals of the course actually are, vs. the specifics of how to reach the goals. Too many institutions and teachers are hung up about the "how" and stress formula or rule compliance to achieve their goals. In essence, they have lost the purpose of education - not conformity, but developement (i.e. improvement). OTOH, some teachers have found the extreme opposite.
Frankly, national governments in countries which have education branches should embrace open source. No reason why OpenOffice cannot be improved a little (a few less bugs, maybe a few more features) by government funds at least. The pay off is software which has no license fees and can be easily extended and ported. The software could be used in other places like libraries and government offices as well.
Education should be stressing alternatives rather than catering to the business world's trends. I understand that getting a job means you need experience in certain applications - courses for specific apps have their place. But in general education, especially requirements, the end result should be learning how to use a computer, not simply how to use $PROGRAM on a $CURRENT_YEAR computer running $OS. Sometimes these two goals are the same, but we should not assume that is always the case.
Ah, that makes this a LOT worse. You should have said that from the outset. If you ask me, its time for some civil disobedience and some open-letter writing.
I have found that faculty are generally closed minded about Open-Source software. They feel more secure if its in a box and has a phone number to call if something goes wrong.
Two Examples:
1) When I was in Grade 9, I tried to convince the Computer Administrator to shift the server over to Linux. Even after countless talks and demos, he still insisted on Windows. Screw him. I left that school the next year.
2) Next School. This one actually uses some OS software, but they are extremely selective. I've tried to convince them to use some alternatives to -certain- software products, but so far they've kept their ears shut.
Rather fortunately, they've (sort of) bribed me to keep my mouth shut, with an old P100 system and another old P233 system. Score.
Frink: Nice try floyd, but you were designed for scrubbing, and scrubbing is what you shall do.
Lame writeup aside, I have installed Open Office, Mozilla and The Gimp on all the college's computers (I'm the IT Officer, just so you don't think I've done this without permission). I'm not saying I got rid of Windows or Office, I just worked out that there was no reason not to include a few alternatives.
I find the whole notion of schools teaching powerpoint to kids to be pretty depressing.
When my niece was about 9, her mom told me that she was really great with computers, she could make her own powerpoint presentations.
I went out and bought a kids' logo system. If you haven't seen it, logo is a lisp variant, a system that's designed to let kids learn how to program. It's heavy on graphics and sound, and uses "turtles" to draw stuff on the screen.
It's not as spectacular as an x-box, but it's better than powerpoint.
No one wanted to deal with it, though. The kids didn't want to, the mom didn't want to. I came back a year later, and the box wasn't even opened. (I live in another town.)
People want to learn powerpoint. They want to work for insurance companies, drive sensible white cars, and make powerpoint presentations. They want to watch bonnie hunt sitcoms on tv.
Maybe some kid could make a powerpoint presentation about bonnie hunt. That would really be something.
Cry me a river
Error 407 - No creative sig found
Remember WordPerfect? Actually when I was a kid it was WordStar, but I never used it, since we had Apple 2s in school, and Atari (400) at home. Whatever word processer those systems used is what I used, when I wasn't useing pen and paper.
By the time I reached high school they were braging about the computer labs which taught WordPerfect 5.1, which was exactly what industry was using.
Then came college and MSWord was on all the non-unix systems. I used that when I had to. More often I used Emacs, or when I needed something more complex FrameMaker was on the Unix systems, and I generally spent most of my time writing programs for Unix so I was on them anyway.
Then I got into the real world and I only had an X terminal on my desk so it was FrameMaker. Eventially they switched us to Outlook for email, but it was done via Citrix, and Word was avaiable there. There I mostly used either whatever was built into the tools we used (a code generation package) or ed. (yes ed, when you telnet to a system without curses you use ed)
At the next job it was gvim on windows. I had MSWord though, and sometimes had to use it. Standard was to export everything to rtf before distribution, though I'm the onlyone who actually did that. Likely as close to the real world as I've ever been.
Today I'm unemployed (though I might be called back to the last job if they find more money). I don't have MSWord, and see no reason to buy it. I have kWord and it works great. I have vi, and it works fine. I also have emacs, though I haven't touched it in a long time, and OpenOffice which I just installed cause some potential employer sent me a word document.
In short, they will make you learn something. Learn it because that is what you have to work with. In the real world exactly what you use will change, so be ready to learn new things.
Dude, the guy who supports the box decides what goes on it. The Admin knew Windows, so Windows was used. As you said, you left the next year, so his support team would have evaporated at the same time. HE MADE THE RIGHT CHOICE.
When I was part of a group in a startup, it came time to decide what to put on the server. Since I didn't want to support it, and I was the only guy with Linux experience, I kept my mouth shut. So, we ran Windows, and I got the enjoyment of seeing the admin physically kick the server over on a really bad day.
I have the same problem, but i think its all in good reason. i mean you take the class to learn ms stuff. i use prosper and gnumeric and abiword instead of the microsoft stuff. the only reason i am taking it is because it is required to graduate at the school i attend. But if you look in your class and ask yourself do the people in here care about linux besides me youll realize that no one but the geek at computer 7 gives a flying rats ass about what computer os you run so windows is just fine, plus everyone who takes that class propbably has some prior windows experience so the class is easier. can you imagine what they would do when they see linux for the first time (remeber that time you took your laptop to get fixed at best buy... "hey ted come here. what the heck is this?". so until the world changes to linux for the desktop or bsd or whatever *nix, microsoft will be taght in school.
At my university (ewu.edu) every student is required to take a computer "literacy" (more like computer penmanship, I think) test to prove that they are computer literate.
Not only is this test MS product specific (PeePee, MS Worse, Eksell...) it is specific to the point where questions ask the student to do tasks using specific mouse clicks (or so I'm told - I'm doing my best to avoid the whole area myself) and the exam software won't let you do it in any other way.
And CS students can't graduate till they pass it. They can be expert coders in C, know low level OS internals, whatever - but if they can't get the right sequence of mouse clicks in MS worse to change a font (or whatever) they won't get that piece of paper.
In my place of employment, we have people clueless enough to request "a laptop and a powerpoint projector" from us. Yep, Powerpoint IS all that they know.
When they came for the communists, I said "He's next door. Take him away. Goddam commies."
I feel the exact opposite as the OP. I graduated with BS in CS a while back, worked for two years, then came back for graduate work (and my school is all theory courses, unlike some schools which have very specific technology courses like "Programming with .NET" and such which I'm starting to drool over). Almost every potential employer I talked to in the field, the first question out of their mouth would be something like "Can you use/have you used C#?" and other very specific application/technology questions - deciding if I could fit into whatever operation they were running.
So yes I would love to have been able to say I had been working with [insert very popular app] for quite some time as opposed to faking it and saying I'm familiar with the theory (ie. OOP or distributed computing or presentation software in general, etc) which is assumed knowledge anyway if you have the app.
If your goals are to learn, then choice of tool
should not come into it.
At worst, quality of [material and] presentation
would be evaluated.
BTW, LOTS of talented folks never completed school and/or univeristy... if you are one of them (but
only if you are...) then why not aim straight
for places that do interesting & challenging work
- if you have a hard copy (letter, printed eMail,
etc.) proof that "It's Powerpoint of nothing"
keep that to show more intelligent judges of your
work that you chose to walk away from narrow-
mined, commercially biased standards... & towards
a learning-centric / knowledge based ethic.
You are the worst sort of Linux zealot arsehole.
Seriously, get a fucking clue. They're not interested in your toy operating systems because (i) they are technically inferior for the task at hand, (ii) no-one will support them and (iii) they're not going to take any advice from a cock such as yourself.
and post hard copies in locations slashdotter's suggest
A blog I run for the wealth
If the course requires your instructor to teach Microsoft Office products in class then thems the breaks. In most situations it will be the end result that actually matters to people. Who cares if you code in vi or emacs as long as it compiles and works like it is supposed to. In this particular instance the course is about Microsoft products, the actual assignments are just busy work to take you through the functions of the applications in the suite. The instructor doesn't really care about the class' hobbies, they just needed an assignment that was easy to itemize for PowerPoint.
I'm a loner Dottie, a Rebel.
...where the official graphing calculator is the TI-83. We're given instructions on what buttons to press for various functions (including trigonometric and graphing functions) rather than being told why a postulate or theory works and how to apply it to different problems. Of course, everyone either has a TI-83 or borrows one from the school's set, so we don't have any problems with non-"standard" calculators as of yet. I suppose the cruddy education guidelines in NYS are to blame (Regents exams in almost every required course, etc). I haven't even tried signing up for a computer course yet, but there seems to be a "computer basics" course required before you can do anything else. Hopefully I can get away with challenging it and jumping into a programming course next year.
Sorry, my karma just ran over your dogma.
Part of the problem here is that there isn't enough mindshare for the idea that the format you edit in isn't the format you share files in. MS are at least indirectly to blame here, their monopolistic status has given people the impression that MS Office formats are appropriate formats to share documents.
In the UK govt software market, people who make systems to support the Public Records Office standard - for archiving, ie sharing documents with our future selves - must support storing the original document, AND a 'rendered' copy that will still be legible in future.
Looking at them from this archival viewpoint, it becomes obvious that MS Office formats are inappropriate for rendered/interchange usage, as OLE containers can contain pretty much anything - you need every windows program on the planet to be sure you can read them. Not only that, they often preserve editing/versioning information which you don't want to share (see eg. the leaked origins of the UK WMD Dossier).
I don't expect things to change anytime soon, theres no money in it; and none of the available options are all that great (PDF also has plugins, PS isnt supported well in windows, XML can contain arbitrary meaningless binary data, etc). For now, the best you can do is to aim at xhtml+jpg as your interchange format, producing presentations using e.g. slideml.
I have found that my school's IT staff are just don't know anything about computers in general. They feel more secure spending money on expensive solutions but don't know how to use them, and when things go run, start running around the room in circles like a headless chicken.
Eight examples:
1) When I was down at the IT department not too long ago, I found most of them hunt and pecking. Not a good sign, I assure you.
2) Related to the first example, I was down there to help them install Apache, PHP and gVIM because they didn't know how to do it. Not that hard for me, but maybe to some people who have to hunt and peck.
3) The girl I was helping (she looked like an intern or something, maybe that explains it) gave me read/write access on one of the directories on the server's PUBLIC drives so I can make changes if needed without bothering her.
4) I have gotten 40 people in detention for playing games copied from the folder. They were caught in one day.
5) The whole network lags to shit whenever a class logs on. They don't seem to know how to subnet.
6) They only locked down the console, taskbar, file menus in explorer, removed the desktop, and almost everything else after I managed to install Counter-Strike on 10 computers, started the 'net send'ing craze, 'net send'ed to a whole domain, etc.
7) The school intranet website has some pages with 'Example #4 for file-uploading in ASP' on them. Seems to be a copy/paste/edit job to me.
8) Allowing -everyone- to access the academic details of a student by just using their student ID, which was easily found via GroupWise, until they realised and sorta locked it off until I came along, viewed the source and created a HTML that had a form with a text box named 'student_id' and it actually worked. It went around, some people got caught but I was never caught. Good ol' friends, eh?
Unfortuantly, they haven't bribed me with anything yet. Cheap bastards, they gotta have at least 20 old boxes sitting at the back.
Founder of Mirror Moon - Tsukihime Game Trans
In November, I finally installed Debian on my (school supplied but owned by me) laptop and proceeded to use it for most of my school work. (I was initally delayed from doing this due to lack of NTLM-proxy support in Mozilla for non-win32).
I am yet to run in to a incident where I have been told to use <insert proprietary application here> instead of <insert OSS equiv here> , even though my Maths teacher (a clear M$ head) got a little irritated with my use of KGhostView instead of Acrobat.
But what still annoys me is this specific quote from the school "about" page:
[1] - They don't even use Photoshop. They use Jasc's Print/PaintShop/whatever it's called.
I sucks crud that they dumped NetWare, since I especially liked it's "Novell Delivered Applications" app, which allows me to purge a program to save disk space, and simply pull it back over the network later should I need it.
I can't still believe they wasted my parents precious $ on ~1,400 M$ client licenses. Even worse since they can't produce a real Acceptable Use Policy, maintain network security and have a crud anti-freespeech conduct policy. Not to mention the fact their obsecure firewall idiotically blocks the xhtml mime type on w3c.org and still lets students search for their dose of pr0n on Google image search...
...people could get a license to DRIVE ALL CARS instead of nowadays Ford License, Toyota License etc.
You, sir, are an asshole. You actually--as a 14/15-year-old--harassed the admin of your school's/district's computer network, wasting HOURS OF HIS TIME "showing him demos," and then you left the school BECAUSE OF THAT? And then, you effectively stole some old computers from your new school? Wow, what a GREAT PERSON YOU ARE. What the fuck is wrong with you? Your in school to get an all-around education. Do you go into McDonald's, harass the manager about the fact that the LCD displays aren't the most cost-effective solution, and then never patronize it again? Schools are there for you to fucking learn, not to play with their computers. You're a moron.