Neural Feedback Training as Therapy for ADHD?

jamesh asks: "I asked Slashdot (anonymously) a while back about my daughter, who has been diagnosed with ADHD. The Ritalin has made a lot of difference but things are still not quite right, and she has developed various vocal tics (grunting, odd little noises, words and so forth... think Tourette's Syndrome, only not nearly as bad), which is one of the side effects of stimulant medication. She's now a lot less of an outcast and appears able to better interact with other kids, but we're still looking at alternate treatments. It may be the trendy new thing, but we've now started down the road of neural feedback therapy. Does anyone out there have any experience in this treatment? First hand 'I've tried it once and it changed/ruined my life' anecdotes would be great, but if you have a child, friend or acquaintance who has been through this treatment, it would be really useful to hear about their experiences." We also discussed ADHD treatments in another related Ask Slashdot but I don't see any mention of such a therapy in that discussion. Has anyone heard of studies or reports on patients of Neural Feedback Therapy?

"If you haven't heard of it, the idea is that by attaching sensors to the head, brainwaves can be measured, and by providing visual feedback, you can actually train your brain to regulate its activity. An ADHD person supposedly has a brain which isn't very good at keeping itself in 'concentration' mode. In a child, the feedback takes the form of a game or in the case of an infant, a pleasing pattern on the screen (an infant would probably be treated for sleep disorders, not ADHD, in case you were wondering). When the brainwaves are in the 'right' state, the game proceeds or the patterns get prettier. When the brainwaves are erratic, it all slows down.

Because it is a trendy new thing, it's been put forward as a possible treatment for many other things including sleeplessness, epilepsy and other disorders, but one of the better successes has been in the treatment of ADHD.

The whole thing sounds quite plausible, but it is also quite expensive. All of the stuff I've read has been either from the suppliers of the treatment, or from people trying to discredit it."

Comments

Not a disease

[__aavhli5779]

Pardon my ranting, but this issue hits rather close to home.

I'm of the opinion that ADD/ADHD is not a disorder, and should never be "treated". Perhaps having been prescribed various stimulant medicines which shortly turned into an addiction, which in itself transformed into dependency on methamphetamine (which I finally quit in March thanks to Rational Recovery) has influenced me in distrusting chemical treatment, the idea of treatment at all, and, most importantly, the disease model that most people seem to apply to Attention Deficit, but perhaps it is just from having been someone who could very aptly be described as the "Poster Child" for ADD.

Based on the experience of myself and many others, I have come to the conclusion that Attention Deficit is not a disorder inasmuch as it is a different form of thinking and interacting with the world which can have both its downsides and its blessings. We may have trouble in the standard school and work paradigms that most seem to be able to deal with successfully, but we also tend to be very insightful, creative, and interesting folks :)

I always call attention to the fact that many of our greatest minds, a perfect example being Albert Einstein, would today have been diagnosed with ADD, prescribed stimulants, and had the insights that they would have otherwise shared with the world snuffed out and replaced with mindless conformity.

Please consider changing your daughter's school, and adapting her environment to her very special mind, instead of trying to cram a square peg into a round hole and possible damage her intellect forever.

Re:Not a disease

[NanoGator]

"I always call attention to the fact that many of our greatest minds, a perfect example being Albert Einstein, would today have been diagnosed with ADD..."

I agree with your point that ADD is not a disorder. Well, I should rephrase that, the diagnosis of ADD is probably faulty. There may be a disorder or condition where the human brain just cannot stay focused on something or another. I doubt, though, that a lot of the people diagnosed with it really have a neural wiring problem. Rather, the content is just not interesting.

I find myself tuning out people at times. It's like they talk too slow. I've noticed this problem especially with the older generation. They feel they must talk in very precise terms and verbally illustrate their ideas. Problem is, I often get their point long before they've finished babbling. So I find myself drifting in and out of attentiveness with them.

Honestly, I don't think this is a neural problem. I think it's an artifact of growing up in a generation where we're expected to understand stuff faster. So yes, I agree, 'treating' it would be a bad idea. Instead, I'd rather learn at the speed my mind will allow.

Re:Not a disease

[Creepy Crawler]

I've learnt the similar thing in school. Even before I was in kindergarten, I was reading magazines, newspapers and the like. There were, of course, words I wasnt sure of, but I figured them out between my parents and a dictionary.

Well, when I get to school in kindergarten, I blew everybody away. Most was starting on their ABC's and counting. I was pretty much bored to death. And I was ancy. Having a 'teacher' (I use this word very loosly) who was one of those high-strung IHATECHILDREN types didnt help much either.

Needless to say, they called in the psych people and demanded that they put me on drugs and psycho-therapy. My parents put their foot down hard and told them to fuck off.

What you have here is a teacher who wants all their kids to be is little blobs who sit down and shut up.

I learnt something else from that early age: School isnt the place of learning. Perhaps that also ruined me, as I never had to study to ace a test or somesuch.

Re:Not a disease

[Anonymous Coward]

I love the line about Einstein. We can say all kinds of theories about the dude because he's now dead, projecting anything on to him.

Proper treatment of ADD is *not* just enough pills to "calm them down". Proper treatment of ADD is a variety of coping mechanisms, with stimulants being one of them.

In fact, having ADD and being prescribed Ritalin, I have accomplished far greater things than I would have were I to not have been medicated. Now that I am on my own, I still have found it to be beneficial, both for work, and for play.

Re:Not a disease

[use_compress]

I always call attention to the fact that many of our greatest minds, a perfect example being Albert Einstein, would today have been diagnosed with ADD, prescribed stimulants, and had the insights that they would have otherwise shared with the world snuffed out and replaced with mindless conformity.

What evidence do you have of this? I can think of Bob Dylan, who clearly had (and probably still has) ADHD, a counter example. During 1965-6, what most would argue to be his best period, he would regularly take methamphetamines before writing. These would calm him down the point that he could write very non-trivial songs in a short period of time. Had Einstein taken a little meth he could have been even more productive. Now that you can get Ritalin from a doctor instead of meth of JD on 15th and M, why deprive yourself of safe, helpful medicine?

Re:Not a disease

[Erratio]

Keep in mind that this isn't just some guy preaching "fuck the system", this is a guy who went through all the stuff. I'm sure there are a lot of people that share your plight, but I'd say that the vast majority of people are misdiagnosed, that ADD is often used as an easy excuse to a more complex problem.

Re:Not a disease

[SdnSeraphim]

Although I sympathize with your bad experience, I tend to want to stay away from generalizations. My wife was diagnosed with ADHD about 12 years ago. She took ritalin in college and she went from a c-d student to a b student. Much of this has to do with concentration and focus. She describes her thoughts as a flashing from one subject to another all with equal/high priority, and she is able to focus on one task, one though with the help of ritalin. She does not take it currently, because she is nursing our third daughter, but she wishes she could because of the focus and clarity if gives to her. Our oldest daughter likely has ADHD. She is struggling in school. We remind her that school is not the most important thing in life. I agree that mindless conformity is bad. It reminds me of how some Native American tribes "honored" androgenous people as a special type of person. Where our society has in the past and currently doesn't know what to do with such people. We tried to "make" them one sex or another just so they could conform. I think ritalin can help some people. As with any narcotic substance, caution surely is advised.

Re:Not a disease

[Daengbo]

I am not a doctor, but I understand that many cases are misdiagnosed, and that even many true cases of ADD/ADHD can be effectively treated through limiting of sugar and caffeine while reducing the over-stimulation of the child.
You prabably already have, as you sound like a concerned father, but I encourage you to look into non-medicinal, dietary and environment based remedies to see if they are an option. Living as a drug addict makes life that much more difficult.

Re:Not a disease

[amishdisco]

I would steer clear of anyone with such a vehement position on this issue, as it is a serious one. To deny someone the benefits of proper medication is to bar them from realizing the full potential of their intellect. Yet be cautious, do your research, and examine other alternatives if undesirable side-effects overwhelm the benefits.

You may want to look into Strattera, as it lacks the addictive properties of other ADHD drugs. My only noticable side-effect on it has been a focused mind - something I've coveted for a long time.

Re:Not a disease

[RabidMonkey]

And maybe you should stop ranting like a tit.

I didn't get a 'fuck the system' vibe out of his comments - they were clear, consise and backed up with personal 'evidence'.

Just because you dont' agree doesn't make him wrong. Any more than it makes you are wrong because you think taking drugs makes you a better person.

And don't try and unload on me - I've done the drugs for ADD, and I hated myself when I was on them so I'd flush them and tell my parents I took them. I have since learned 'coping strategies' that the public health people used to teach me and they work just fine. I have learned to recognize that I am drifting out of focus and correct if I need to. I also let my employer know that I am prone to ADD and that I am in fact still working even if I look like I'm not.

I agree with the parent - drugs aren't the way to go. but if you feel they work for you, thats great.

But thats still no reason to be a tit about it.

Re:Not a disease

[Slack3r78]

As another person who could also be considered a 'poster child for ADHD' let me disagree with you. My personal experience has been that there are times that no matter how hard I try or attempt to work around it, there are times where my brain simply refuses to focus on any single task long enough to accomplish anything - even the things I want to do. I also occassionally fall into another classic symptom - hyperfocusing on a single task to the extreme detriment of others.

I've been on adderall on and off since middle school, and it has had a definite, positive effect on these symptoms when I take it. That said, I will agree that I'm strongly opposed to what I'd call routine prescription of stimulants. IE: Take one daily, 'just in case.' The thing I feel is often overlooked is these drugs do have definite side effects. For example, while I usually have a good appetite and admittedly eat a bit more than I probably should, if I'm on a 'routine' adderall dosage, I have to force myself to eat - it's not totally unusual for me to go a day or two without eating simply because I forget otherwise.

The bigger reason why I oppose it, however, are the emotional side effects; which is the primary reason why I don't take it daily as I'm prescribed to. Not only does the medication tend to cause you to focus better, but it also tends to cause emotional swings to become more extreme. While I tend to have slight swings anyway, the medication tends to turn what might be a slightly down mood into full blown depression - especially on the off end of the drug. Having dealt with that for several years and realizing the drastic improvement in my attitude when I took myself off medication for a couple of years, I'd never put a child on medication full time.

As it stands today, for the most part I avoid medication and try my best to work around the condition on my own, but do keep my prescription filled for times when I feel it would help me. I've found it to be a fairly good compromise, allowing me to work effectively and avoid the side effects on being constantly medicated.

So I guess what I'm saying is I don't totally disagree with you, but I still feel that ADHD isn't just something that you deal with or drastically change the environment of the kid for. I know that if anything, all years of guidance counsellors giving me things 'that will help' did is piss me off. You just have to give the kid a chance to figure things out for themselves and allow them to decide when and if they need medication, accomodations, etc. I'd force neither medication nor a special environment on a kid, but feel it'd be better to give them the tools to figure it out for themselves.

Re:Not a disease

[jdray]

I do the same thing, often tuning out what others are saying and "checking in" with their monologue every twenty seconds or so to see if they've finished the thought I got the gist of in the first ten or fifteen words. But I find myself adversely affected as well, because of the need for me to "fit in" with the rest of the world (have to be able to hold a job to keep the mortgage paid and all). Often I have to actively ignore my impulse to task switch at work, because I know that if I get onto something more interesting, I'll never come back and finish the less-interesting-but-important-to-the-boss task that I'm working on. The impulses come often enough to be like background noise to my forefront thought processes. I find that listening to music helps quite a bit, though familiar songs draw me to pay attention to the lyrics. When I really have to concentrate, I play electronica intrumentals.

Re:Not a disease

[joe_bruin]

you expect me to read a post that long?
i have ADD, you insensitive clod.

Re:Not a disease

[Wolfstar]

Perhaps you ought to try alternatives to chemical therapy regimens before you discount them.

I was diagnosed with Attention Deficit in the 4th Grade, and after that diagnosis, my teachers worked with me to accomodate the issue. I went from barely passing to very nearly acing my classes, without a change in class difficulty.

Unfortunately for me, the information was lost in a move from one state to another, or never forwarded. I've been on chemical therapy in the past, and frankly, I got more comments about how the medication seemed to be working well after a week or two off of it than I did when I was on it. (This doesn't even BEGIN to mention the fact that someone with a tendency to absentmindedness is particularly unsuited to a regimen that requires they remember to take a drug to remember incidentals.)

I have to agree with the previous poster. Anything that affects the better part of 20% of the world's population isn't properly classified as a disorder. Medicating us is not the answer. Working with us to make sure we adapt to the society that the other 80% have created is where we should be going. As it is, far too many kids get medicated these days because their parents don't want to take the time to raise them properly, and the prevalence of Ritalin for "hyperactivity" is one of the main causes of this.

If parents and educators looked at this as a "Leadership Challenge", as the military would call it, and not a disease or flaw, then more people would be well-adjusted individuals without a need for prescription medications.

Re:Not a disease

[T5]

As the father of a son with ADHD, I have to disagree that ADHD is not a disorder and, therefore, should not be treated.

A little background is in order here. I am absolutely certain that I am/was ADHD myself and that I made it through school because of the nicotine in the second-hand smoke (5 pack a day combined habit of my mother and father) at home. Nicotine, except for its highly addictive tendencies, is an wonderful stimulant. I hit college away from home and the smoke and I felt as if I was completely disoriented and unable to concentrate on anything - this from the high school valedictorian who had never struggled with any learning issues except for pensmanship (a clue that I have/had ADHD, as I was to discover 20 years later).

My son was struggling to finish even simple assignments. I've watched him struggle for three hours to write five simple sentences! His grades were mediocre, far below what a child of his intelligence would be expected to score. The psychologist evaluated him as having a moderate case of ADHD and recommended Concerta (time-released Ritalin, essentially).

I was as anti-drug therapy as you could imagine but decided to give it a trial run. Within a month, he was a new kid. His ability to concentrate allowed him to perform his homework with much more dedication and concentration. He had a fair amount of catching up to do, but over the last two years he's moved from a C student to all A's except one B (English, generally the most challenging for him) on his last two report cards (sixth grade).

I would agree that there have been some very bright people who had ADHD and were never treated, your Einstein example, for instance. However, when ADHD begins to affect your ability to learn at an early age, given the requirements of the society in which we live dictate that some level of competency be achieved with basic intellectual skills, that the option of drug therapy, carefully monitored for progress and side-effects, be considered. I don't say this lightly. I can't emphasize how adamant I was that drugs were undesirable. I'd heard too many stories about Ritalin, its side-effects, and the dependency issues. But when the psychiatrist, a 30+ year veteran who himself has moderate ADHD and by his own admission no more than a 30 minute concentration span (!), presented me with a list of symptoms for adult ADHD, and I had nearly every one of them (!), I began to dig into why I did so well in K-12 school only to be so swamped in college. Well, I was on drug therapy of a sort in those early school years - nicotine. I suspect that this is why many people can't kick the habit; there's more than just an addiction issue here.

I am sorry to hear of your subsequent methamphetamine dependency. I believe that is not an inevitable consequence, however, and that drug therapy can do wonders. But it is truly a two-edged sword.

Re:Not a disease

[Erratio]

Bob Dylan didn't take the drugs when he was a child though.

Re:Not a disease

[the_2nd_coming]

chemical therapy is good for the short term to give results to get kids on track in school and socialy, but it must be suplimented with Ocupational Therapy so the kid can learn techniques to deal with their problem and keep from learning bad habbits like procrastiation and problems with personal managment.

Re:Not a disease

[MBCook]

THANK YOU.

I believe I posted something about AD(H)D not being a disease in one of the earlier Ask Slashdots. I firmly believe that it is not a disease. The fact is that AD(H)D is simply not the normal way people think or act, and as such has been labeled a disease; which prompts people to look for "cures" to the behaviors.

Now I wouldn't be at all suprised if neural feedback therapy would work, but I agree with the parent comment that it's not needed. I suggest you look into the parent post and think about whether you think your kid really is a problem, or it's just a "doesn't fit into the current education model".

First, I'd like to refer you to my pervious comment in the origional discussion. That said, I have one other thing. I would like you to read "The War Against Boys". Buy it ($14 I think), check it out at your library, whatever. Now I realize that your child isn't a boy, but one of the things that the book talks about is how public schools are becoming designed for "girls". By this I mean the classic little girl who always sits quietly and pays attention and such. Kids who do not fit this mold often have problems or are labeled troublemakers or as AD(H)D kids or other such things. I think an alternative schooling environment may be the best thing for your child. A perokial school, a private school, maybe there is even a school that specializes in AD(H)D kids in your area; because as you know they often just learn differently. I think reading this book might help you realize what I suspect is going on: you child doesn't fit the mold and so other people (school administrators/teachers for example) are trying to "help" you make her fit that mold. A quick look at the table of contents shows that I think chapter 7 is for you, but I could be wrong about that.

PS: If something above is unclear, just reply and I'll be glad to answer you. And if you /.ers out there if you disagree with me or think I'm an idiot, I'd really appriciate it if you'd just reply and tell me. I'll read it.

PPS: I said this in my last comment and I think I might have gotten modded down for it, but I'll say it again. I would suggest you call Dr. Laura and ask her about your situation. She's VERY good at helping you figure out where to go on issues like this. And I can garuntee she only has your child's best interests at heart when she gives you advice. She is a licenced Clinical and Family Therapist (I think that's the term), so she knows what she is talking about.

Re:Not a disease

[rjpcal]

I have to agree with the previous poster. Anything that affects the better part of 20% of the world's population isn't properly classified as a disorder.

The prevalence of myopia is about 25% among the adult population in the USA.

Does that mean it's not a disorder, that instead of wearing glasses we should have the other 75% be restricted to a minimum font size of 48pt (or preferably 96pt given my own ability to read my CRT from inches)?

Sure, one can argue whether it's better to view the ADHD or myopic population as falling inside one tail of a bell curve rather than having a qualitatively different 'disorder', but either way -- if there are treatments to improve the quality of life for those people, where's the problem in that?

Re:Not a disease

[canadian_right]

Would you tell someone with diabetes to stop taking insulin because you don't think it is a "disorder"? Of course not. But as soon as someone has a problem with their brain then it must be a lack of will power, or moral degeneracy. Couldn't possibly be an organic problem.

That said, it is best to combine proper training, coping mechanism, and other therapy with the drugs. And don't stick with the first drug you try. A good Doctor will arrange to try a few different drugs to find the one that is most effective with the fewest side-effects. Also, arrange for a "drug holiday" once a year if it is a "mild " case. Many people are more able to cope without medication as they mature and learn more self-control. But don't feel bad if you (or your child) have to continue with drugs all your life. You wouldn't feel bad if it was insulin.

Re:Not a disease

[jamesh]

Analysis of a 'typical' ADHD brain shows one part of the brain going really slow, and another part going fast (sorry, don't know the actual names of them off hand). The theory is that the fast part is going fast to compensate for the slow part, but in doing so causes the 'problems' we associate with ADHD.

Stimulant medication, so the theory goes, speeds up the slow part, thereby allowing the over compensation to stop and the brain to function 'correctly'.

You site a few examples where ADHD is a positive thing, but completely ignore the fact that for some people it is an incredible disability. My two year old daughter has more sense than the seven year old when it comes to day to day tasks.

I respect and value your input as someone who has been treated with stimulant medication. But maybe you didn't have ADHD, but were in fact a smart kid who was just full of energy. It is fairly obvious when someone is taking a too higher does of ritalin. And for someone who doesn't have ADHD, any amount is too much. Seriously, if you don't have ADHD, ritalin will make things worse. One of the things we were told about neural feedback is that we'd have to watch her ritalin dosage, as once her brain patterns move towards 'normal', the amount she's on now would probably be too much.

Albert Einstein is dead. And i doubt you knew him personally. He may well have been given stimulant medication if he were a child alive today. It may well have numbed his mind (if he didn't have adhd), or it may have turned him from super genius to super-duper genius... maybe he would have finished that grand unified field theory thing he was working on. The fact is though, we'll never know, so bringing it up is just a little pointless.

I am pretty sure that all the examples you can find of stimulant medication causing problems, are cases where adhd was not the correct diagnosis. I would love to not have my daughter taking Ritalin, but it's the lesser of two evils at the moment and I will argue with anyone who says it doesn't have its place. For some people it's the difference between happiness and being able to interact with people, and the horror of social isolation.

Re:Not a disease

[Tinidril]

Most modern thinking in ADHD is that AAD ( Attention Abnormality Disorder ) would have been a better term. The point is that people with ADHD ( myself being one of them ) can't choose for themselves what they will concentrate on. In fact, when something like a video-game gets my concentration it is almost impossible for me to let it go. Even if I shut the game off my brain will keep trying to play. It's hard to describe and very frustrating. At least ADHD is better than MBD ( Minimal Brain Dysfunction ) which is what they used to call it.

Re:Not a disease

[jamesh]

It is not unreasonable for a teacher to want the kids in their class to shut up and sit down. Just because you know everything doesn't mean that half the class is desparately trying to understand what is being taught. A kid who takes up 80% of a teachers time because in class is one thing, a kid who does that but already knows it all is purely wasting the teachers time, and depriving everyone else of an education.

I got very self centered about this somewhere along the way. If I was bored in class it wasn't my problem. It was somebody elses. I guess i've come to realise that school _is_ a place of learning, provided you are able to learn at the prescribed rate. I wish i'd had the presence of mind at that age to just say to my teachers: 'I can sit at my desk and cause a distraction while you ramble on about stuff I already know, or I can finish my work, sit down out of the way and read a book quietly. How do you want it?'.

Re:Not a disease

[Afrosheen]

First off, fitting in is overrated. Many of the luminaries, great scientists and great leaders stuck out from the herd based on their own merits. Many of them never fit in anywhere, and thus took paths that branched from the average person.

Believe it or not, we're not all created equal. Some people are more 'gifted' than others in many different ways. What society and hack psychologists perceive to be a sickness or disease can be a great asset with the right application.

Unless you kids are autistic, don't fuck with them. If they can't pay attention in class, put them in private schools where the curriculum is more challenging. Nine times out of ten kids who screw around, draw and doodle, clown around instead of getting work done probably aren't being challenged. I know, I was one of these kids. When they finally did some standardized testing the school system discovered that kids like myself were 'bright' and were bored with average work. Once you get into something more advanced and difficult, you pay attention and do work.

I have issues with the current American school system still, because it aims to average the students out. Rather than having some dim and some bright bulbs, they all glow with the same intensity. Also most public schools promote regurgitative learning rather than comprehensive skill sets. Hence you get students that cram before the test, pass it, but don't understand what they've learned. School becomes trivia, and trivia is rarely interesting or engaging.

I hope I have 'gifted' children, because I'll understand them and hopefully will be able to challenge them in ways they'll later appreciate. They won't get hours of television; they'll get books, technical manuals, things to build. I'm not anti-television or anti-entertainment, I just believe that the way I taught myself was valuable and want to give my offspring the same opportunities.

Re:Not a disease

[SirCrashALot]

I've been diagnosed with ADD and have been presecribed Concerta to take as i choose. I don't use it often, but I found that in situations where i wouldn't normally focus, in particular lectures, I was able to focus and take notes as opposed to doing other more interesting things such as programming. While I don't know if ADD is a disease, i do know that I have trouble (lots of trouble) paying attention to things which do not interest me. When I take the medication, I find it much easier to conecntrate. I disagree with people who put this off as a side affect of today's society mostly because of the change that I notice. Is ADD overdiagnosed, maybe? But from my experience i think it exists.

Also the test I was given consisted of pressing spacebar everytime a letter appeared on the screen, except when an X appeared. In that case i was supposed to do nothing. In analyzing the results with my psychatrist she said that by the pattern of response times based on noraml responses and responses just after an X there is a signficiant deviation from the normal population.

Re:Not a disease

[jamesh]

With my daughter, it's not just the schooling. It's everything. There is no planning going on in her brain, and without Ritalin, almost no independant thought.

The morning routine is a bit like this:
Daughter wakes up.
daughter: Can I get dressed now.
me: yes, of course you can.
daughter: what can I wear?
me: there's a dress on the couch there for you, and some knickers in your drawers.
daughter: (picks up dress) this dress?
me: yes.
daughter: is it going to be warm today?
me: i think so. it should be just right for wearing that dress.
daughter: so can I wear this dress?
me: yes (I won't pretend not to be frustrated at this point)
daughter: where are my knickers?
me: in your drawers. (if, in fact, they are none in there afterall a major panic attack is had by daughter).

breakfast also is along the same lines:
me: (puts daughters bowl of cereal at the dining table, in exactly the same place as it has been put every morning since we moved into this house 2 years ago) , come and eat your breakfast
daughter: which one is mine? (hers is often only bowl at the table at that point)
me: (points to bowl) that one.
daughter: (sits down at table in her normal spot) so is this one mine?
and so on.

Up until she was 3 or 4, she would never get out of bed in the morning by herself. If she woke up early she would lie in bed and chat to herself until she heard one of us moving around and could ask us if it was okay to get up now. She had been told repeatedly that it was okay to get up at any time past 7 o'clock but just couldn't think for herself. (and yes, she could tell the time enough to know when 7 o'clock was)

Diary writing is the whole thing over again. 'What do I write?'.

With ritalin, it's a whole lot better. She actually thinks for herself rather than being a robot that needs constant instruction.

The schooling thing was (before ritalin) a problem with things like the diary writing. She would not be able to think about what to do next, and would just start annoying the other kids, or if the teacher was lucky, just hide under the table out of the way.

We have (at home) learnt to cope with this to some extent, although I can't imagine it's a good way to conduct home life. But no teacher can be expected to devote almost all their time to one child. It's not fair on anyone else.

On the one hand, i agree with you that it's just a way of thinking that's different to 'normal', but so is autism, and to stretch your line of reasoning way beyond breaking point, so was the way of thinking of anyone whose grabbed a gun and started putting holes in anyone who's ever pissed them off. At some point you have to say 'this is a problem, either for this person or for everyone around them', and i believe that is where we are at with my daughter.

Re:Not a disease

[Dimensio]

I find myself tuning out people at times. It's like they talk too slow. I've noticed this problem especially with the older generation. They feel they must talk in very precise terms and verbally illustrate their ideas. Problem is, I often get their point long before they've finished babbling. So I find myself drifting in and out of attentiveness with them.

That isn't ADD/ADHD. That's getting bored with someone who belabours a point. ADD/ADHD is when you CANNOT, despite your best efforts, concentrate on anything for a long period of time. This is really bad in a classroom environment when you need to pay attention to new material (especially in Calculus courses) and you keep drifting out every five minutes regardless of the effort that you put into paying attention.

I have to deal with ADHD. I know what it's like to suddenly get distracted by the smallest thing, and I know that -- in my case -- Ritalin helps with the concentration problems. I can't stand it when someone who does not have to deal with what I live with comes forth with an "authoratitive" position on ADHD, calling it a myth.

Re:Not a disease

[mwa]

And here I sit without mod points..

Instead a seeminly unrelated story. My father was a parapelegic (waist down paralysis) and in a wheelchair for 30 years from a broken back. He suffered horrendous pain for years. We lived in a small town. Small town doctor. Small town pharmacist. They new he was on pain medication, new what it was and if he asked for a refill, well, he must need it, so he got it. Hell, as I child I walked into the pharmacy and asked for it for him all the time and just got it.

One day the pharmacist happened to actually read his refill history. He was taking enough on any given day to kill someone who'd never taken it before. Coincidentally, Dr. C. Norman Sheeley, author of "Occult Medicine can Save Your Life" and founder of the American Holistic Medical Association, was speaking at the local university. Dad went, and volunteered as a "test subject" for that very lecture. He was treated with accupuncture and completely, albeit temporarily relieved. (I'm talking 30+ years ago when acupuncture was as foreign to the west as open source is to Microsoft)

So he started acupuncture treatements. It never worked again. He finally contacted Dr. Sheeley who invited him to his compound.

Dr. Sheeley only took pain patients that everyone else had given up on. IIRC, the treatment period was 3 weeks, and required your spouse to attend if you where married. The program was simply "try everything" (well, except drugs - those had all been tried already). Acupuncture, faith healing, bio-feedback, massage, electro-stimulation, and I don't know what else. IIRC, he even had an African "witch-doctor" in occasionally. (I still have a pair of goofy, hand-made with parts from Radio-shack, dark goggles with lights inside that pulsate at alpha and theta frequencies. They will relax you completely or put you to sleep in just a few minutes. And I use them when I get migraines.)

Bottom line -- Dad came back and never took another pain pill until he was on his death bed with cancer. The goggle thingy + bio-feedback + electro-stimulation was his cure. Other patients who where there at the same time had their cure.

Sheeley's philosophy was "If it works, it works." So what if we can't explain it? The human physiology is extremely complex and the mind even more so. If we don't consider things just because we don't understand them then we are making a conscious decision to be bound by our own ignorance.

His success rate, again on patients that "traditional" doctors had completely given up on, was over 80%.

So, yeah. if the drugs work for you fine. If neural feedback works, fine. If stretching your left testicle over your right ear works, fine. If none of those do it for you, that doesn't mean they won't work for some one else.

Except for the left testicle one. That only has around a 50% chance of working for everyone, and I don't recommend it anyway. It's really rough on your ear.

Re:Not a disease

[shawb]

I have experienced beer allowing me to concentrate more fully on something. For instance, I play pool/darts far better after a couple of drinks, as long as I don't have so much that my coordination is impaired. It seems that I become able to focus on the one task at hand, and more able to tune out distractions.

I also hear this about driving drunk. When drunk, people are usually able to maintain their speed, or follow a straight line. Not both. Considering that driving requires juggling so many different inputs, it makes sense to not drive intoxicated. Especially considering that the ability to hyperatenuate one particular thing will give the driver a false sense of confidence.

Re:Not a disease

[Escape Tangent]

The mis-diagnosis of ADD is often a problem. IANAD, but ADD is very frequently just a convenient acronym that we apply to a host of symptoms we can't otherwise explain. Labelling the problem doesn't make the problem easier to solve in this case because the way the brain works under such exceptional circumstances is not entirely understood.

If you want a little perspective, consider the following. When I was little, around the second grade, I was very much the kind of kid who would be separated from the rest of the group, wildly sketching, doodling, making noises, et cetera. This was perceived as a focus problem (it's true that I wasn't focused at all), and within a very short period of time, all of the teachers were bandying about labels like ADD, Tourettes, and various other mental disorders as if they were all authorities on the subject. I remember quite clearly being taken to the local Children's Hospital for a series of evaluative tests, including an electroencephalogram.

Note that I very probably displayed almost all of the traits commonly associated with ADD. I can't remember much from that time period except for the events surrounding this little investigation into my mind that the school faculty felt necessary to launch. Why? It was rather traumatic for me. The strongest memory of the time was my rejoinder to my parents' explanation of our hospital visit: "There's nothing wrong with me!"

It turns out that I was right. They found nothing. To my credit (I suppose, since I don't put much faith in these measurements) I was rated at a highly above average intelligence. I'm seventeen now, and while I've been described as a rather eccentric individual (you can laugh at that), I'm doing quite well. What my grade school teachers thought (very adamantly, actually) was ADD had in fact been nothing more than a socially detached child's attempts to entertain his very, very bored and lonely mind. To this day, I put extremely little stock into the idea of "fitting in." That is for people insecure with their identities, in my humble opinion.

I was never diagnosed with anything, thanks to my parents, who fought against labelling me with a tenacity that I'm inclined to admire. My advice to you, from having been in the position of the child, is not to allow your daughter to be labelled. It constrains the possibilities within the boundaries of a very narrow and ultimately rather misunderstood set of definitions. What helped me was intellectual challenge and a few very good friends. Never underestimate the value of those things.

Re:Not a disease

[msuzio]

Whatever it is, I beg you to please not pursue the path of medication on this. It may bring your child into some sort of 'compliance', but it will not help long term! You are doing the right thing seeking out an alternative "cure".

I have a very close friend who went through this 13 years ago... he was diagnosed as ADD and immediately put on Ritalin. When that didn't work, they switched him to something else, when that didn't work, they switched him to something else... this poor guy's biochemistry was completely fucked for his entire adolescence. On top of the usual hormonal changes and mood swings, he had to deal with neurochemical roulette. Every time I saw him, he looked different -- sometimes he was very pale, sometimes he had a bad rash somewhere on his body, sometimes he was very low energy... it was crazy.

As soon as he turned 18, he stopped his medication. He has a horrible relationship with his parents due to this -- he says they turned him into a lab rat, and he hates them for it. He is now even more messed up than when he started, and recently has been diagnosed as so clinically depressed that he cannot function on his own... he's a mess. I'm convinced his brain was forever altered from this set of drugs they put him on... he was a very smart kid, still is, but he got shafted by faulty treatments by over-eager doctors and parents who believed that the *next* drug would be the key.

I'd be very wary of any sort of ADD/ADHD diagnosis. *Very* wary. It's just too easy to misdiagnose... Your daughter obviously does have some true difficulties fitting in, but I don't think giving her medication that makes her have facial microseizures is any sort of answer. The side-effects of these medications are just too great, especially in a growing body. Seek a second opinion, and definately look at holistic and therapeutic modalities.

I know this isn't an answer to your question... and I don't mean to sound critical of someone who is obviously a caring parent in a tough situation. I just figure relating my experiences in seeing this might help give you a perspective. Email me if you want more details -- my email address is on my blog linked above.

Experiment

[Mieckowski]

I've actually tried the sofware, as I have an uncle that's into this stuff. I couldn't seem to "train" my brain waves in the short time I tried it, though. And those sensors pressing on your head HURT after a while :(

Doctor

[dedazo]

My man, you need to talk to the doctor. Doctor. Several of them, if you want. But you're not going to get much wisdom from a bunch of people who start their posts with "IANAD".

Seriously, I'm sorry this is happening to you and it sucks, but go talk to someone who knows how to help you. Please.

Re:Neutral Feedback Therapy

[740916]

Is this why nobody replies to my /. posts?

No, but have you considered showering more often?

Do you realise Ritalin is Speed?

[Steven Reddie]

Ritalin is speed, don't give it to kids. I realise why it works for this "disorder" but that's no reason to use it. I'm 32 now but have every reason to believe that I suffered from ADHD when I was a kid, and I think I still do to a certain extent, but I got through it without drugs. Actually, I didn't get through anything, this is just me, I have an overactive mind that means I sometimes jump from one thing to another very quickly.

Re:Do you realise Ritalin is Speed?

[akedia]

Ritalin is a stimulant. "Speed" is used by people to basically mean anything that stimulates the brain chemicals. In the case of someone who has ADHD, they lack a certain brain chemical. Ritalin replaces that brain chemical to normalize the level in the brain and help with ADHD. In the case of a child without ADHD (they have a normal balance of the chemical) the excess amount causes stimulation in the same way that "speed" causes you to become blitzed. Perhaps you had a low-grade or nonexistant ADHD and the Ritalin was excessive, causing you to be wired when medicated as a kid. I don't know the name of this chemical, and I'm too lazy to Google for it (damn ADD.) Ooh look, a butterfly!

By the way, this is from someone who took Ritalin and Depakote for 10 years, and now takes Lithium and Effexor.

Re:Do you realise Ritalin is Speed?

[sigwinch]

In the case of someone who has ADHD, they lack a certain brain chemical. Ritalin replaces that brain chemical to normalize the level in the brain and help with ADHD.

I'll believe that shite when I see a comprehensive proof, including gene sequences, protein morphologies and chemistries,and a comprehensive simulation of the brain in question. Given that placebo tends to have an efficacy rate around 30% for mind-altering drugs, anybody making statements about chemical imbalances is talking out their ass. The drug clomipramine causes some people to have orgasms when they yawn. What, those people were low on the come-when-you-yawn neurotransmitter?

Truth be told, nobody has much of an idea WTF happens to make the brain do anything, nonetheless what causes it to do odd things. "Research" involves randomly cooking up new chemicals in the lab and seeing what they do to living brains.

My experience...

[Peyna]

My parents adopted a young boy who was diagnosed with ADHD and was taking Ritalin (which then caused severe Tourette's like symptoms, so they diagnosed him with Tourette's and gave him drugs for that.)

As soon as the adoption was final, my parents had him taken off of all of the drugs, and while he still has behavioral problems, the Tourette's has all but gone away, and he is generally happier than he was before.

Billions of people survived just fine with Ritalin, and I personally see no use for it in any situation.

Re:My experience...

[foqn1bo]

Actually, speaking as someone with Tourette's Syndrome, that's a misconception. As it happens, TS and ADD have a high rate of comorbidity. As far as I am aware this is due to the genetic factors that contribute to them. Many people have noticed TS symptoms in kids given Ritalin, and concluded that this means Ritalin causes those symptoms.

See here.

results

[Mieckowski]

My uncle who uses this treatment has a bicycle "race" where you go faster if you generate a certain type of brain waves. He brought it to a family party and my relatives checked it out. The people who seemed to be best at it (who actually didn't have ADD) were ones who could meditate, did yoga, or otherwise had some experience trying to relax.

Probably is Tourettes

[tgordon]

I'm ADHD and took Ritalin as a child to treat it. Bad idea, because it activated apparently dormant Tourettes Syndrome. Like the poster said, the tics were mild, all physical (rolling my eyes compulsively still continues today at age 19). After the Tourettes diagnosis treatment became a bitch since most ADHD meds aggravate it.

Had this done

[nemesisj]

I am borderline ADHD, and I only found out several years ago afte I began having trouble with class and general management of time while in college.

My mom had a friend who had recently gotten certified in using this type of therapy on her daughter (who was severely ADHD), and they arranged for me to show up at their house knowing that because I was a computer science major and a geek, that I would be extremely interested in the whole setup. I walk in, express interest, and they offer to hook me up, and while they're explaining what's going on, they run a quick diagnostic which shows I could use some work on the machine (and that my brain waves are "sloppy").

To make a long story short, I went through three months of training using the machine, the whole time believing it was a placebo, but my entire family noticed the difference. I also began noticing that I was sleeping better and could work for periods of time longer than 30 minutes without feeling like i HAD to take a break.

To sum up, this is a very groundbreaking type of therapy that does work, and I encourage anyone on /. to research it.

Re:Had this done

[dameron]

class and general management of time while in college.

Please realize the structure of modern educational systems is based on regimenting people to a time clock, to produce work for evaluation, and for punctuality. It's really not designed to educate, for even those that "fail" have at least learned the "rules of school": show up, don't be late and when the bell rings, work is over. Perfect for modern factory work. Guess when the modern school developed. If you said "hand in hand with factory work" you are right.

150 years ago there would be no diagnosis for your condition, and having to work for more than 30 minutes without taking a break wouldn't be an illness. There was no concept of a "work day" anyway and rural folk had work that was entirely seasonal. Anyone of even vague wealth would find the idea of being tied to a clock moronic. The idea that you are "sick" because you can't concentrate on one typically boring or otherwise mundane concept for more than half an hour says a lot more about how work/education has changed than anything else.

I'm sorry you feel like you have an illness, but I have a great deal of trouble believing millions of people are rightly drugged for a disease that didn't exist sixty years ago.

-dameron

Re:Had this done

[nemesisj]

I didn't and still don't feel like I have an illness. The issue is more about approaching the situation and examining the scientific facts - my brain waves were not behaving in the "sweet spot" that researchers have observed is ideal for thought processing.

The effects of bio-response neurotherapy are very sublte, but they do show change - I still hate doing things that are pointless for any length of time, but before I had the training done, I didn't have the ability to concentrate on things that I really enjoyed.

I also couldn't get sufficient sleep - I was told that even though I was sleeping for 10-12 hours a day, I most likely wasn't getting enough REM sleep, and this was an aftereffect of ADHD. After therapy, I could get by with as little as 5-7 hours and feel much better.

I'm not saying this is a cure-all, or that it's a miracle drug, etc. I am saying that I noticed subtle differences in myself and how I behaved, and others in my family as well as close friends noticed change. The change was so drastic when I got back to school that my roommate of three years asked what had happened.

On a semi-humorous note, I'll never forget the time I was being trained when the UPS man came to the door. I was expecting a new laptop, so I quickly unhooked and ran to open the door. I'm sure it messed with the guy's mind when he saw me open the door with three electrodes attached to my head and act like nothing was out of the ordinary.

Stop Ritalin

[(eternal_software)]

I don't know about the Neural Feedback Training, but I'd suggest finding an alternative to Ritalin ASAP.

There are many studies out there about the inefficient conversion of ALA To EPA and DHA in people with ADHD, leading me to believe that pumping your kid full of stimulants is a (very) wrong answer.

Try Mercola.com, which has some very informative articles on ADHD. As a start, make sure your kid isn't having a lot of sugar and caffeine (ie drinking fruit juices and soda).

To prove this AC is insane.

[DAldredge]

This is what a colonic irrigation is.

Procedure in which very large quantities of liquids are infused into the colon via the rectum through a tube, a few pints at a time, in an effort to wash away and remove its contents. CI differs from an ordinary enema which involves infusing a lesser amount of liquid into the rectum only. A "high colonic" may involve the use of twenty or more gallons pumped by a machine or transmitted with an apparatus that relies upon gravity to achieve its purpose. Liquids used in colonics may include coffee, herbs, enzymes, wheat grass extract, or many other substances. Proponents of the procedure advertise that "all disease and death begin in the colon," that colonics "detoxifies" the body, and that regular "cleansing" is necessary to maintain one's health. None of these claims are true.

Try something different without medicine.

[IMarvinTPA]

I would recommend Abuse it - Lose it. There are some additional articles Dr. David Keirsey has written about this problem as well.

IMarv

Sources for research

[BernManUNC]

I am a psychology undergrad, and though I have no serious experience with the study or treatment of ADHD, I can recommend some starting points for gaining the facts on this condition. Where I in your position, I would head to the nearest university, put some cash on a copy card, and start using their online article databases. In particular, MedLine and PsycInfo have the most expansive databases on psychology research. Start simple - run some basic searches using keywords like ADHD and Neural Feedback Training. When you find an article or two that nail the topic you're exploring, move from those databses to the ISI (Web of Science) database. The most powerful feature of this database is its reverse-searching feature, where you can enter in an article, and retrieve a list of articles that have been published citing the one you have. This is a literature search (the first major task in designing a study). Moving back and forth between these databases, narrowing your keywords, following citations, and even searching for authors publishing pertinent studies, is going to return a massive quantity of data.

Unfortunately, links to these databases are going to be useless, because you need a subscription to search them. This is why you need to run your searches from a university library. Once you've got some promising references, start pulling articles, and educating yourself.

I hope this helps. I'm a firm believer in the power of psychology and medicine to improve the human condition. Your daughter doesn't have a disease, but she does have the physiological deck stacked against her. Being a fan of psychology over psychiatry, I'm happy to hear that you're persuing a non-drug-based treatment in addition to her medication regimine. I hope that this is where you'll find true long-term improvement.

Best of luck to you, your family, and your daughter.

Video Games Help

[lukior]

There are actually several studies that link playing video games to improvements for ADHD. http://www.cet.edu/gstw/adha.html (center for educational technologies)

Drugs should be your last resort

[MasterOfTheObvious]

First, find out which sub-type she has. There are many different subtypes that each have different treatments. Take the on-line tests at: http://www.amenclinic.com Second, check out the pioneer in non-drug therapies: http://www.drakeinstitute.com If you do have to resort to drugs, try Strattera, which is a new, non-addictive, non-stimulant treatment that looks very promising: http://www.strattera.com/index.jsp

Yes it will likely work

[odeee]

Take a look at learning connections (people, don't click it unless you're interested as they will most certainly be /.'d), they provide physical exercise programs for children and adults with learning difficulties. By providing physical stimulus they're able to activate parts of the brain that don't appear to be working properly. They've been operating (in Australia) for 28 years and have had a great deal of success through a simple program.

As the computer programs provide a similar type of activity (teaching the brain how to work properly) I believe it would work as well.

People, please don't discount mental disorders (including ADHD) as being just made up.. for those who are suffering from them and those around them they are very real conditions.

Obligatory...

[Xarius]

I, for one, welcome our new Attention Def--OH LOOK A SHINY THING!!!

Re:ADHD is not real.

[shamilton]

Sedatives? The treatment for ADHD is *speed*. The symptoms of ADHD are similar to the short term effects of amphetamines, and yet they are used to treat ADHD, and give consistent results. And you are claiming that ADHD "is not real"? The facts do the flaming for me.

Neural feedback therapy for Tourette's

[Xeger]

Let me begin by pointing out that there is a correlation between ADD/ADHD and Tourette's. In other words, having one increases your chances of having the other.

I was diagnosed with mild Tourette's Syndrome when I was in sixth grade. It manifested itself similarly to your daughter's symptoms -- minor vocal and muscular tics. It wasn't a significant bother, but it impaired me enough that I sought medication for it. I began taking Clonidine transdermally (through a skin patch) to help ease my Tourette's symptoms.

A year after starting the Tourette's medication, I was diagnosed with ADD. This was ~1990, before ADD was a "trendy" disease. At the time, none of my family had ever heard of it before. So I began a regimen of Dexedrine, to help with the ADD.

I stayed on both medications for a further year, until I developed an allergy to the skin patch. At that time, my doctor recommended I try neural feedback therapy to help control the Tourette's. I went in for an hour of therapy every two weeks for a year. Over the course of the year I became better able to control my tics, but only with great concentration. If I became flustered or anxious or nervous or just plain stopped paying attention, I would lose control and the tics would come back. But, at the end of the year, I decided I was able to control the Tourette's well enough to stop therapy and medication.

I continued with Dexedrine throughout my junior-high and high school years, and gradually stopped taking it when I got to college. I firmly believe that the Dexedrine was a great help in high school; even though it exacerbated my Tourette's symptoms, it allowed me to finish high school having learned what I needed in order to get into college. Could I have used some other means to achieve the same ends? Probably. But the medication worked.

Today I'm a slightly disorganized, nervous and fidgety young man living a normal life and working a full-time job in software development. My duties expand every day and I find myself diverting more and more of my attention toward organization and self-management. But I can manage.

Will neural feedback therapy help your daughter? I'd say, give it a try. It could be that the techniques I learned to help control my Tourette's also gave me an edge in studying ... we'll never get a chance to perform that experiment, since now I'm all grown up. But I know from firsthand experience that it's possible to reign one's body in using only the power of one's concentration. So give it a shot. If it doesn't work, there's always the drugs.

P.S. I would recommend looking at alternatives to Ritalin. Dexedrine and Desoxyn , AFAIK, achieve the same thing but with fewer side effects (less of a methamphetamine-like effect on the human body).

Not every ADHD sufferer agrees with this statement

[MaineCoon]

I suffered from ADHD as a child as well, and believe I still do suffer from it in some form as an adult, although I have many of the problems under control through conditioning and strong willpower. I disagree very strongly with your statement that it is not a disease.

I also do not believe those stimulants (none of which I take) are a hindrance. As a child, I was on ritalin, and I was still in the gifted and talented program. In Kindegarten, I had ADHD issues so severely, I was originally suspected to be suffering from a mild form of mental retardation (ADHD didn't cross their minds at the time). As a result of this suspicion, I was given an IQ test. I was discovered to have a high IQ (~145 range at the time in Kindegarten), which ruled out mental retardation, and brought up suspicion of ADHD.

I couldn't sit still in class, I couldn't focus, I couldn't pay attention, I couldn't learn. What good is intelligence if one can't manage to focus long enough to learn how to read and write? What good is intelligence or brilliance without an educational foundation and the ability to focus and employ one's abilities?

Ritalin was a godsend for myself and my parents - I could finally focus in class, and my mother wasn't being driven crazy by an overactive 5 year old. I was in the gifted and talented program in elementary school, and began reading material well beyond my grade level.

Now, that is not to say I believe Ritalin is a wonder drug. I am merely stating my experience with it during my childhood. Misdiagnoses of ADHD IS a problem. Treatment of correct diagnoses is not.

You can listen to what this person has to say, not treat your daughter, and put her school years at risk of being wasted time. Or you can seek treatment for your daughter.

- MaineCoon

Neurocybernetics / EEG Spectrum International

[x00101010x]

I worked with these guys a while back. Their techniques work for a number of applications including ADHD, seizures and addiction to name a few.
As a previous poster mentioned, this kind of stuff works by "training" your brain. It does this through biofeedback.
Biofeedback works by presenting data of interest from some sort of sensor array (EKG, or in this case an EEG) in a way your brain interprets on various levels (ex: colors, shapes, etc).
These guys usually do it (afaik) in the context of some sort of non-interactive game (well, it is interactive in that it's driven by your brain, not by a joystick/keyboard/mouse, etc).

Anyways, I don't want to say too much because I'm sure most of it was under some sort of NDA, but here's their sites:

• EEG Spectrum International
• NeuroCybernetics

This stuff is pretty amazing, you can actually feel it working, as potent (or more) than any medication I've ever popped. But it should only be done by a trained therapist (I tried it on myself a few times because I was sick of playing back the same old recordings and it gave me a bit of a headache, but under the control of a trained tech it doesn't cause much (any afaik) discomfort. Also, unlike another poster mentioned, I was never irritated by the connections, maybe they've improved over time).

It's pretty cool stuff and I hope I have an opportunity to contribute more in the near future.

Disclaimer: I'm just a code monkey that developed some "front-end" stuff (the game side shown to the patient, not the nuts & bolts on the therapist's side). So, take my info in context of just a guy who coded from a spec and attended one of their conferences.

For good info on ADD/ADHD

[nullset]

Be sure to check out Dr Hallowell. He is the coauthor of "Driven to Distraction" as well as their recent followup "Answers to Distraction".

I would recommend emailing him if there's nothing on this site about this particular therapy.

Yes, it's real and yes, it works

[DocJohn]

I spent three years in my graduate school days (which was now a decade ago... yikes!) administering the hardware/software for the Autogenics system in our community mental health center at Nova Southeastern University under Doil Montgomery, Ph.D. Neural feedback is also referred to as EEG biofeedback. Not only is there some good research in this area, but it's a nice, non-invasive and non-drug way to treat this disorder (which should be especially interesting to teens and children, where medications are less tested and proven).

Some basic positive empricial results supporting the use of EEG biofeedback in the treatment of ADHD from MEDLINE:

Neurofeedback treatment for attention-deficit/hyperactivity disorder in children: a comparison with methylphenidate. in Appl Psychophysiol Biofeedback. 2003 Mar;28(1):1-12.

Fuchs T, Birbaumer N, Lutzenberger W, Gruzelier JH, Kaiser J.

Institute of Medical Psychology and Behavioral Neurobiology, Eberhard-Karls-University, Gartenstr. 29, 72074 Tubingen, Germany.

Clinical trials have suggested that neurofeedback may be efficient in treating attention-deficit/hyperactivity disorder (ADHD). We compared the effects of a 3-month electroencephalographic feedback program providing reinforcement contingent on the production of cortical sensorimotor rhythm (12-15 Hz) and betal activity (15-18 Hz) with stimulant medication. Participants were N = 34 children aged 8-12 years, 22 of which were assigned to the neurofeedback group and 12 to the methylphenidate group according to their parents' preference. Both neurofeedback and methylphenidate were associated with improvements on all subscales of the Test of Variables of Attention, and on the speed and accuracy measures of the d2 Attention Endurance Test. Furthermore, behaviors related to the disorder were rated as significantly reduced in both groups by both teachers and parents on the IOWA-Conners Behavior Rating Scale. These findings suggest that neurofeedback was efficient in improving some of the behavioral concomitants of ADHD in children whose parents favored a nonpharmacological treatment.

The effects of stimulant therapy, EEG biofeedback, and parenting style on the primary symptoms of attention-deficit/hyperactivity disorder. in Appl Psychophysiol Biofeedback. 2002 Dec;27(4):231-49.

Monastra VJ, Monastra DM, George S.

FPI Attention Disorders Clinic, 2102 E. Main Street, Endicott, New York 13760, USA. poppidoc@aol.com

One hundred children, ages 6-19, who were diagnosed with attention-deficit/hyperactivity disorder (ADHD), either inattentive or combined types, participated in a study examining the effects of Ritalin, EEG biofeedback, and parenting style on the primary symptoms of ADHD. All of the patients participated in a 1-year, multimodal, outpatient program that included Ritalin, parent counseling, and academic support at school (either a 504 Plan or an IEP). Fifty-one of the participants also received EEG biofeedback therapy. Posttreatment assessments were conducted both with and without stimulant therapy. Significant improvement was noted on the Test of Variables of Attention (TOVA; L. M. Greenberg, 1996) and the Attention Deficit Disorders Evaluation Scale (ADDES; S. B. McCarney, 1995) when participants were tested while using Ritalin. However, only those who had received EEG biofeedback sustained these gains when tested without Ritalin. The results of a Quantitative Electroencephalographic Scanning Process (QEEG-Scan; V. J. Monastra et al., 1999) revealed significant reduction in cortical slowing only in patients who had received EEG biofeedback. Behavioral measures indicated that parenting style exerted a significant moderating effect on the expression of behavioral symptoms at home but not at school.

Treatment of attention deficit hyperactivity disorder with neurotherapy. in Clin Electroencephalogr. 2000 Jan;31(1):30-7.

Nash JK.

Behavioral Medicine Associates,

People like you make my life more difficult

[metalhed77]

I was diagnosed with ADD in elementary school and have been on and off drugs at various points in my life. I will say that they most definitely DO make a difference in my life. I take adderall and I have a really rough time going to class without it. I'm less attentive and get far less out of the experience without meds. Upon taking an IQ test my score went up a full 30 points when drugged. That kind of thing has real world effects on my life.

Is ADD overdiagnosed? It's probable given the lax screening practices I've heard of. I myself spent weeks being diagnosed at great expense and had to submit to a battery of tests. In response to another user in this thread posthumous diagnoses are considered speculative and not conclusive.

I find it disconcerting that you have formulated your judgement without any real world evidence other than your own personal experience. I have a rough time dealing with people upon admittance of my ADD as a result. It's terrible when people suddenly percieve you as having an imaginary illness. For me life is more 'real' when I'm on Adderall. I can think clearly, have conversations without being distracted and am generally more productive. The only downside to being on Adderall is a bit of drymouth and sleep problems (which don't occur if you take it in the morning as I do). I have no symptoms of addiction, in fact I occasionally forget to take Adderall and usually choose not to on the weekends or for low key events. I can live without Adderall; but my life is just so much more fulfilling being able to use it.

I implore you and everyone who reads this to take into consideration the seriousness of ADD for certain people, and ask that you not spread invalid, generalizing, anecdotal evidence about what is an important part of my life.

Repackaging concentrated meditation

[wytcld]

When you concentrate on something it becomes prettier. Where is this true? It's true when you're in an external space that's beautiful, for one. For instance, in a club with good live jazz, where you can fall into being more aware of the space the sounds are in than you'd normally be aware of any space - and yet meet yourself in that space, finding yourself also able to concentrate clearly on other stuff you normally leave far in the background.

Okay, so the therapeutic technique you describe is to simulate an aspect of reality that's pretty much there when you're in good external spaces.

It's also much like a standard form of meditation: concentrating on a candle flame. Or concentrating on an image of a diety. The object of concentration, like great live music, becomes richer in your experience at the same time as you're able to better resolve other aspects of life. (Thus has power often in the past been ascribed to statuary.)

Schools don't want concentration, don't want trained attention of this sort. They're mostly ugly spaces, something even less interesting than a factory aesthetic (where at least there's real production being done). That's why 2/3rds of our kids leave them for the factory jobs that no longer are there, instead of sloughing on through a few more years to pass through college - despite that colleges are more often decent aesthetic spaces.

William James wrote cogently of the need to teach concentration as fundamental to education. The problem for our current schools is that kids who can concentrate will mostly want out of them. Because when you can concentrate at will, your will is often not going to be towards the less rewarding concentration on a teacher who typically was among the stupidest cohort at college.

I'd suggest seeing if there's a descendent of the old "free school" movement in your area for your daughter. She's probably too smart for her teachers. But she should learn concentration, whether through immersion in art, practice of traditional concentrative meditative techniques, or the techno repackaging of those techniques that you describe.

Before you experimenting any more with her brain

[Progman3K]

I read some time ago that a study had been done where they took a group of hyperactive children, and put them on a very strict diet of natural foods (the four basic food-groups WITHOUT preservatives or dyes or any other additives) and the kids hyperactivity cleared right up.

Think about it; we ingest A LOT of chemicals in our diet these days, much more than a few generations ago, when this problem was non-existent.

I'm not saying that this is THE cure, but don't you think ou should at least check it out before subjecting her young, developing mind to even MORE drugs?

And this means NO cheating, ie. "snacks" or "treats" have to be out of the question.

Good luck, may your daughter find peace.

Some Reference Links

[isdale]

An article from AboutOurKids.org

EEG Spectrum is a group of practitioners and researchers. They have a page on the application of the technology for ADHD type treatments. Also a variety of other articles and links on the tech there.
The EEG Spectrum uses hardware and software from NeuroCybernetics which includes some games you play by brain wave control. I tried some of these out a few years ago while looking into EEG tech for Virtual Reality applications.

BioFeedback Home Therapy is the home page for a couple doctors using biofeedback.

My sons experience

[RubberDuckie]

My wife and I had my son try bio-feedback when he was about 16. I'll have to say that I did not notice much difference. This is probably because he did not really take it seriously. He later admitted that he thought the whole thing was a 'crock', and just goofed off during the sessions.

So, as with any psychololgical treatment, the person first needs to admit they have a problem, and want to do some work to 'fix' that problem. If this is not the case, don't even bother.

The treatments were very expensive, so I would not do something like this lightly.

Done the drugs, chose something better

[RabidMonkey]

Let me start off by saying thank you to the poster for not settling for a drug treatment. I am a very very outspoken anti-drugs for ADD person. As a child (starting at 4) I was diagnosed as ADHD (1982, so not in the middle of the 'every kid has ADD' phase). I would only sleep for a couple hours a night and the rest of the time I'd just rummage around my room, tearing off wallpaper, throwing things around or generally harassing my parents.

They put me on ritalin when I was about 6 after giving up on training me, and found it didn't work - it actually made me more hyper.

Thats when they moved me to Dexadrine. For the americans out there, it's the same drug some people use to lose weight. It immediately worked, helping me focus and not be so wired.

The downside was, I was moody and depressed. I was anti-social and angry a lot. but I was 8 and people didn't care really. They wrote it off as depression because my parents broke up. But when they took me off the pills for the summer, life was grand again. I was energetic to a fault and had lots of friends. Come school time, back on the drugs and back to quiet, boring, socially acceptable me.

Fast forward to highschool and I'm still on the stupid things. September was great, I'd start taking the pills and wouldn't eat for a weak (about the only upside to em, great weight loss). But around that age you start to become more self aware and I realized that I hated myself because I wasn't really me. I took these stupid pills every morning and I became who my parents and teachers wanted me to be, but I wasn't really me. I didn't laugh as much, I didn't talk as much, but I got good grades.

Around grade 11 I said 'fuck this' and started to not take the pills. Then my parents started threatening me and grounding me if I didn't take them. So I'd pop them in my mouth then spit them out. Then they started to check my mouth to make sure I swallowed them. So I found a new trick - you could pull apart the gel caps and all the little balls of medicine inside would fall out. So I'd quickly dump them on the floor or sink then take the pill. That worked well and I started to feel more like myself.

Except then my grades started slipping.

So thats when I turned to the psycho babble they'd been teaching me at my semi montly sessions. They called it 'coping strategies' and taught me how to recognize when I wasn't behaving well or focusing like I should. Instead of just throwing pills at the problem, they put me in control of my life and said 'these are the tools to make things better for you, but you need to do them'. They made me responsible for my behaviour and grades.

So I started with them. At this point I can't identify what I do, but my friends will notice when I *click* in and out of focus now. Apparently I'm much better and I can recognize when I'm having ADD moments. Sometimes I have ADD days. I've learned to work with instead of against the ADD. I now run dual monitors on my PC so I can do more than one thing easily. my desk has lots of distractions on it, but they're all little. I can jump from work to a distraction for 30 seconds to give my brain a break then back to work. I can focus much better now that I've learned these skills, and I dno't need pills to make me work well.

So, the moral of this story is that pills aren't necessary. They inhibit your mental and social and emotional growth by turning you into a little robot. I found that I could actually feel myself in a little tunnel when I took them and things seemed duller. Teaching coping skills is, I think, the key. Teaching your child how to recognize when they're not paying attention is the first step, then teaching them how to focus when needed, and let their mind go when not needed. If this Neural Feedback Training does that (and it sounds like it does), then go for it! Don't spare any expense ... just think of it as being amortized over the life of your child ... just pennies a day!

My feelings would best be expressed...

[Queer Boy]

in a dialog from the motion picture "Superstar" starring Miss Molly Shannon as a girl chasing her dreams of a Hollywood kiss.

"Mrs. Gallagher, I called you here today to discuss your granddaughter's problem. Now, upon reflection, I think a combination of prayer and Ritalin could eliminate her excess energy."

"How dare you! My Mary has no problem. My granddaughter is a star! Look at that face, she looks like a young Elizabeth Taylor. You may call her hyperactive but if the Good Lord gave her excess energy then, by God, no one's taking it from her! If you don't appreciate that, maybe the problem is not my granddaughter, maybe the problem is this school."

Don't take this guys advice, please I beg you.....

[jcrb]

I am of exactly the opposite opinion, ADD/ADHD is a disorder and not treating it (when properly diagnosed) is just cruelty plain and simple.

I have ADD and went from being last in my class in High School and failing out of college to graduating with Honors and going on to graduate school at the finest university in the country, after being prescribed Ritalin.

I hold more than a dozen patents and have had research papers published at world class conferences, so as the poster says, I am a very insightful, creative, and interesting folk. And this is only enhanced not suppressed by medication.

I still suffer the effects of going so late in life before being diagnosed, I can't spell for beans having learned all the wrong spellings when I was young. Its all very nice to talk about not trying to harm her "very special mind", but failing to treat her WILL damage her intellect forever, while treating her will allow her intellect to develop.

Asking a doctor...

[Erratio]

There are several posts in this conversation saying that jamesh should just ask a doctor. Obviously their advice should be heeded (and the more diverse qualified opinions the better). Keep in mind that most doctors will not recommend the type of treatment that he's asking about, at the very least since it's their ass on the line. Also ADD is an interesting thing to ask a doctor about since their opinions are probably as diverse as the people in this discussion. I would recommend findind a doctor that's slow to prescribe.

I think he knew what he was asking for in this forum.

You're conclusion uses faulty logic

[rtilghman]

I have acute ADHD. When I was last tested (in college) I came out with like 17 of 18 characterics or something. I have been off and on various medications over the course of my life, including ritalin and dexadrine.

The problem with your argument is that it mistakenly assumes that treating the symptoms of a way of thinking and brain activity (loss of attention) inherantly involves the loss of any creativity n the same person. Essentially you draw an conclusive connection between two characteristics with NO evidence to support that conclusion.

According to your logic a "life of the party" guy who gets treatment for alcoholism will no longer be fun or interesting, because it is the alcoholic "party guy" component of his personality that makes him interesting. Isn't it possible he is an outgoing and interesting person who happens to be an alcoholic? And that he will STILL be so, sober or not?

What if many insightful and inventive people happen to have ADHD, but not all ADHD people are insightful and inventive? Isn't it actually both possible and likely that treating the lack of attentiveness will allow a truly creative person to concentrate on and further develop the creative ideas he comes up with?

In my experience I have found that this is the case. I am, like you state, a fairly creative and insightful person. I'm the kid who disassembled teh family television to figure out how it worked, who learns a new technology in ten minutes to help someone else, etc. When I take a methamphetamine like ritalin or dexadrine it just allows me to focus VERY deeply into whatever i am doing. Instead of doing something else every 30 minutes I can sit and churn out the same thing for like 3 hours at a go.

Yes, there are side effects, and I SPECIFICALLY don't like ritalin very much (it makes me feel like I'm tripping and makes me very socially uncomfortable). However, for someone whose productivity is that of a gnat without it the treatment offered by Meths is a god-send.

I'm sorry if you have an addictive personality and you fell into a hole as a result of a meth prescription. However, I see that more as a personal problem you had and not an indication of the merits or general problems associated with methamphetamines. Ironically the only people I've seen who get addicted to meth drugs are people who AREN'T ADHD positive (like some of my friends in college). ADHD folks usually couldn't care less.

-Rick

Re:You're conclusion uses faulty logic

[kargis]

Rick,

Hope you're actually reading these. You actually don't have acute ADD. You have adult-diagnosis ADD. The taking the TV apart stuff -- ADD in a high-functioning child.

ADD is like not having brakes on the car that is your brain. So you can go really fast but have to keep turning so as to not hit things. If you're fast enough, you can make enough turns that you still get to where you're supposed to. This is the high IQ/smart kid with ADD. Compensatory mechanisms get you through until you can't do it anymore, then you get diagnosed. Not uncommon with adult ADD patients, and the really nice benefit you get from the meds is classic.

I wrote specifically to tell you to ask your doctor about Concerta -- extended release formulation of methylphenidate. It's nice because a lot of the "trippy" side effects are from the short release pharmacokinetics of the normal methylphenidate -- it's peaking and dropping all day long as you take multiple doses, or just spikes and drops off. Either way -- side effect city. The Concerta smooths it out. Much better.

Kargis
(This does not represent medical advice as a physician, but rather simply describes the characteristics of the medication. Ask your doctor about it. Do not change meds without a physician's advice. This does not constitute a covenant of care.)

400.00 on clothes & a drugged daughter. Great

[DAldredge]

This is from one of JamesH's previous /. postings.

It provides some supporting evidence that they have higher priorities in their life than their child.
Mhttp://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=91154&cid=785 5602

" Me to wife: How the heck could you spend $400 on clothes?

Wife to me: Don't worry, I got about $1000 worth."

Take care of her! Do not use her for fucking medical experiments.

Re:ADHD is not real.

[Erratio]

I think the problem with ADHD which somewhat invalidates is that it's far too broad. 10 different people with ADHD could have 10 different causes, 10 different collections of symptoms, and 10 different ideal solutions yet they're too often lumped together and treated the same way. That's why so many people in this discussion are able to say "I have ADD/ADHD and my situation is different from everyone else's". And that's why so many people that were treated for it wish they never had been.

All idiocy stops here... I have taken this therapy

[MarineAir]

Hello,

First, let me start off by saying that I have in fact taken this "feedback" therapy, or, more accurately known as EEG/EMG biofeedback therapy.

A little background information on ADHD... trust me, I've done my homework on this as I have the condition. The strongest medical explaination of ADHD (which encompasses the former ADD... more later) is a rapid decline of oxygen metabolism in the prefrontal lobe during periods of thought requiring concentration. This kind of conditition can lead to two forms of ADHD: inattentive and overactive... I happen to fall into the former category. Basically, EEG waves can be measured through the skull/scalp in the picovolt range by use of an amplifier connected to a small probe stuck to the scalp by use of electrolytic gel similar in consistancy to vaseline. When EEG signals are filtered, they can be separated into waves in the .1 second duration and .5 second duration. ADHD individuals show a marked amount of "slow" wave amplitude over "fast" wave amplitude.

Someone mentioned earlier in the post that he was unable to alter his brain function in a short period of time; a just statement. I attended therapy for nearly 3 weeks after diagnosis before seeing any kind of large changes in brain activity while concentrating. The excercises used started off with concentrating on an object in a video monitor to mentally "push" it along... and later was changed to academic study of exceedingly boring material. As my scores improved, so did the quality and depth of the notes I wrote during a timed interval of study.

Now, coming down to it. ADHD is usually a male-dominant trait, passed from father to son... explaining the vastly larger amount of males with the condition.

I specifically did NOT choose drug therapy as it would have prevented me from service in the Marine Corps. Simply put, I'm a rock in a traditional education environment, but continue to score in the 130 range with reputable IQ tests. My doctor in fact was the person who encouraged me to satisfy my "thrill seeker" personality (which is somewhat common in ADHD individuals). Since my diagnosis, I continue to be a United States Marine, having endured training such as aircrew school and SERE, and now get to fly around in KC-130 tactical aerial refueling aircraft as a Crewchief/Flight Mechanic. I have also attained my private pilot's license, parachute jump license, and have started racing a stock RX-7 in autocross. Major "Pappy" Boyington of the Black Sheep squadron was also of the ADHD personality. What can I say? It feels good to go fast.

It is my firm belief that your daughter does NOT need stimulant therapy, and would benefit from the somewhat unconventional EEG biofeedback therapy. If you contact me privately at my email address, I will be happy to converse with you over the phone about my doctor and how to contact him for more information.

Hope this clears up any doubts you had about this somewhat unconventional therapy method

Cheers

Life is a disease

[Trolling4Dollars]

With the amount of people out there doping up to try and avoid every sign of being human, I would definitely consider a second or even third opinion on the ADD diagnosis. I seriously hope that there has been more than one opinion. I can't say because I don't know your situation.

If my folks would have taken me to a doctor as a kid because I spaced out on the gym floor, I would surely have been diagnosed with ADD. But the real truth is that I wasn't a jock.

Going back to my first statement (about people doping up for everything under the sun), think about it:

1. I've got a few age lines in my face. Solution? Inject toxin just under the skin to make it swell and fill in the wrinkles for a few months!
2. I've got reflux (probably the fallout of too many antibiotics and a bad yeast infection in the digestive tract) disorder. Solution? Get the purple pill that costs an arm and a leg and I will have to stay on for life lest my symptoms get worse.
3. I'm going bald. (Hey... we all get old eventually) Solution? There's just too many to go into, but I'll point out that the list of side effect for Propecia is mind boggling. Especially the one that says to not even TOUCH Propecia if you are pregnant!

I'm not denying that there ARE people with problems out there. I'm not even saying that this guy's kid may not have problems. But let's step back a bit. Back to the time when kids were allowed to be kids. When they didn't have to "perform" in a certain way by a certain age lest they be considered "freaks". Hell... most of us were considered "freaks" but I think we fared pretty well over our lifetimes. Haven't we? The first thing I would say is that this child may just normally be less social and more introverted. Is that REALLY a problem? Do we REALLY need to drug people who just don't get on well with other people?

The other thing is the expectation people place on their kids these days. And the ridiculous level of activity kids are expected to be involved in. (Baseball, Soccer, Football every F*cking day?!! WTF?!) Kids should be allowed to do things like sit in the backyard baking mud pies or making snowmen. They should be allowed to make "chemistry sets" with water, food coloring and old bottles. They should be free to dig holes in the ground in hopes that they will reach whatever it is they believe to be on the other side. But most of all they should be allowed to dream. Because those dreams will take them farther than any drugs they are getting pumped into them.

Hey JamesH

[Famanoran]

Firstly, I'm the poster of the other Ask Slashdot regarding 'Working with ADHD?', and I'd like to thank you for your original posting, as that gave me the courage to look further into my issues and seek treatment.

Now, I've since been looking into neural feedback as a potential treatment - more from the geek-side of things though, than as a patient. (I'm looking at building a home-made EEG-like device with input to my computer via either a serial or parrallel device.)

I'm sure that you're aware of all the technical information on EEG's and biofeedback, but for the benefit of the other readers:

A typical electroencephalogram (EEG) is where the electrical activity in your brain is recorded over generally a 1.5 to 2 hour session. During the test, the brain can be applied with different stimuli to see how the brainwaves react. Uses for this include detection of epilepsy, and determination of clinical brain death.

Neurofeedback is an extension of typical brainwave monitoring wherein the brainwaves are represented to the patient in a way that facilitates learning how to control them, i.e via a game of some description. Current methods include controlling the doppler effect on a virtual pool, or cloud generation/manipulation.

The brainwaves are approximately:

• Beta
  • High Concentration
  • Between 15 and 40HZ
• Alpha
  • Awake
  • Between 9 and 14HZ
• Theta
  • Daydreaming
  • Between 5 and 8HZ
• Delta
  • Sleeping
  • Between 1.5 and 4HZ

People with ADHD can exhibit brainwaves that have an unproportionally high period of time spent in the Theta state - essentially daydreaming. So if the patient is taught how to modify his brainwaves to between mid-Alpha and mid-Beta, then a lot of the symptoms can be reduced.

For instance, with the doppler effect method, more ripples could indicate a more higher-cycle brainwaves, and can thus be observed and trained.

There is also strong clinical evidence that shows that neurofeedback is an effective tool for people with ADHD, with a lot less of the harmful side-affects of the drugs, such as Ritalin.

For me personally, I had an EEG performed when I was 12 for suspected epilepsy. An EEG is non-invasive, and non-painful. No icky injections, nothing that felt really weird. Particularly for children this can be a very important point.

I would recommend following this path highly, as it shows a lot of promise, and there is little to show it being harmful in any way.

I wish you, your daughter and your entire family the best through this, and I think that you'll be very happy with the results you'll find.

Just FYI, I'm still on Ritalin, but I do intend to go down the path of neurofeedback, but I'd rather do it via my home-made one. I'm a geek, after all. :)

Song of Sign

[forkazoo]

There is already a zillion comments, and I have bad Karma, so most likely, nobody will see this, but I do have one idea you may want to look into. A friend of mine adopted a mentally retarded girl. (Fetal Alcohal Syndrome, sad story). She was having a terrible time in school, and the school insisted that the girl be put on medication, so that, even if she couldn't learn, at least she wouldn't be a bother. Contacting DCFS and having the kid taken away was what the school threatened doing. So, (and I don't know why) my friend taught her daughter sign language. She started an after school club where a bunch of girls get together, and do sign language performances of songs. It turned around several lives. Nobody is exactly sure why it works, but for some reason, mixing language, movement, rhythm, music, and such together into one performace has helped several of the kids function. My friends daughter went from "she may never be able to walk properly" to riding a bicycle. She is doing quite well in her studies. (Not quite top of her class, but for a kid with Fetal Alcohol Syndrome, it's damned impressive!)

I would reccomend trying something similar with your kid. It may not work, as everybody's brain is a bit different, but I have seen sign language song to *wonders* for several kids now. I haven't seen any literature on the subject, or anything else, and as far as I know, my friend invented it as a therapy.

I know, I have bad karma, so some of you mods (if anybody even reads this) will probably assume I'm full of crap. I swear, I only have bad Karma because of a single "I welcome our XXX overlords" joke. So far, it just happens, that's the only comment of mine that has been moderated!

Easy to say if you don't have it ...

[adventuregeek]

Both myself and my S.O. have been diagnosted with ADHD and find that the "your just":

A. Undiciplined
B. Lazy
C. Just different
D. All of the above

(take your pick) explination really fustrating. You really don't know what it's like until you've been in our headspace.

Now as for medication. I agree in a perfect world being intellegent and ADHD would be great. We could be the thinkers, excentric scientists and artists. Unfortunately we live in a world that demands that we "stay focused" and have great "organizational skills", so the practical considerations must be taken into account.

That being said I belive there is an over diagnosis in children (hey kids are a real PITA and can be hard to manage) and an under diagnosis in adults. I wasn't diagnosed until I was 31 since I have found many ways to cope and be successful.

Oh look something shiny ...
(couldn't resist that one)

Re:Easy to say if you don't have it ...

[Mr. Slippery]

Unfortunately we live in a world that demands that we "stay focused" and have great "organizational skills", so the practical considerations must be taken into account.

And that's the problem. Many, if not most, mild cases of "mental illnesses" like AD(H)D, depression, and "social phobia" - are better labeled "failure to be a good cog in the machine". It's not an illness to be different, especially in a society as sick as ours.

"And isn't sanity really just a one trick pony anyway? I mean all of you get is one trick, rational thinking, but when you're good and crazy, oooh oooh oooh, the sky is the limit!" -- The Tick

Brain machines?

[danharan]

A friend of mine has suggested I look into the work of Dr.Michael Persinger at Laurentian University, and Todd Murphy. Some of the machines Murphy sells (cheap, he's obviously not trying to become a millionaire off this stuff) might be useful in home treatments, especially if you can get a neuropsychologist to help you determine a protocol. (with standard disclaimers: IANAD, neuro-scientist/psychologist. Nor am I associated with Laurentian University, Persinger or Murphy)

Different theories

[SdnSeraphim]

It is facinating reading all of the different theories revolving around the two camps. ADD/ADHD IS real and ADD/ADHD IS NOT real. The is not real have "helpful" ideas such as: Turn off the TV. Kids will be kids, let them be. It causes Tourettes, addiction, panic attacks, dumb children, more idiots, drug society. The hardest falsehood to overcome is the one that is only partially or potential true. For example, Tourettes syndrome can be aggrevated by Ritalin. However there are children taking it to alleviate the symptoms of the syndrome. The other concerns are all possible, but not ALWAYS a problem. Many people who say it does not exist do not have it themselves, and do not know someone suffering from the affliction. I was totally anti-drug, anti-ritalin before I met my wife. She was diagnosed while before we were married. I was against her taking Ritalin (she was still in college). She, fortunately, disagreed. Her school performance inproved dramatically as did some associated conditions such as depression and anxiety (depression because she was failing and anxiety because she could not change it no matter what she did or how she studied). She is not addicted, in fact hasn't taken it for quite a number of years. She developed some coping skills that were as important as the ritalin. As with most medicine, it works for some people, dramatically. For some it works without major side-effects. For others who have this affliction, let us hope there is an alternative. For those that don't have this affliction, let's hope they or there parents have a clue and not medicate something that is normal. However, to say it doesn't exist is mere elitism from those that are not afflicted. Something along the lines of a white person living in a majority white country saying there is no racism simply because they don't experience it.

Two different results for us

[BionicTowed]

My son is also ADHD and we had him try bio feedback for a year. He is attention deficit and not hyperactive. We stopped the bio feedback because after a year we had seen absolutely no change. However, our best friends son is also ADHD, and also not hyperactive, and he has been using bio feedback for about a year and a half with some good results. My suspicion is that the difference may be mostly how hard the person tries at it. The rub here is, of course, that staying focused and "on task" is exactly what ADHD kids have a problem with. We did get results by switching him to Adderall XR. If you haven't, you may want to try out a few different medicines with your kid and see which ones she responds to. It's worth a try. The down side of trying is that she may not be treated for a week or two, if one meds fails, and the up side is that you find a medicine that works much better. Keep her on the bio feedback, it can't harm and it may do some good. Give her every chance there is! Don't forget to take care of your self too. I used to think I was a patient person until I had an ADHD kid. Now I know that I'll never have enough. Best of luck to you!!!

Feedback on Neural Feedback

[slobbit]

I have a list for adults with ADHD (AADD @ yahoogroups) that any polite adult with ADHD is allowed to join (newbies are moderated until they've shown they won't try to enlarge our penises).

We do have one specialist on board who has ADHD herself and is quite knowledgable about treatments. You're apt to get much more helpful advice than querying /. where so many people have obvious impulse control disorders...

Bioneurofeedback has been helpful for many people and several of them are on my list. Meds just don't work for everyone, and I'm one of those people. I hope to try feedback some time in the future.

Try avoiding Yellow 5

[nick_davison]

The last four months of my life have been, literally, a living hell. Panic attacks to the point of screaming and shaking in fear, tranquilizers by the tubfull. Welcome to the world of [what was diagnosed as] Generalized Anxiety Disorder and it's fun big brother, Acute Panic Disorder.

The reason I mention them is because they have many of the same physical symptoms as ADHD: Trouble sleeping, racing thoughts, inability to focus, irritability/easy to upset, etc.

It was only when that connection was made, in the last week or so, that I appear to be finding my way out of it...

You see, I had what most people would call ADHD when I was a kid. Pretty much every symptom, which are pretty much the same symptoms as anxiety disorder and panic disorder in adults, I had.

Then, it being the 70s in England and Ritalin not being as popular, my mother looked around for other remedies and found the reports on Yellow 5 allergies. She took me off Yellow 5 (tartrazine) and I started to chill out. The scientists may be divided on whether it's a factor but the emprical evidence suggests it was for me at least.

It's only been in the last week or so that we put two and two together. I was ordered off caffeine the moment I got ill. I swapped to Minute Maid lemonade from diet Coke. The stuff is full of Yellow 5 - the problems snowballed.

Since Sunday I've been off anything with Yellow 5 (or Blue 1). What do you know? The physical symptoms are getting better by the day.

The point of all of this is that Yellow 5 and ADHD may or may not be related, who cares. What does seem to be the case though is that a Yellow 5 allergy can manifest with the same symptoms as ADHD or Anxiety Disorder.

All the tranquilizers in the world, SSRIs, you name it, weren't going to help when I had the equivalent of someone slipping me speed or an acid tab in every can of soda. Ditching the soda (and other things that have Yellow 5) has already had a profound affect in, what, 72 hours?

My advice would be - try cutting out Yellow 5. It might not make a difference but it will only take two weeks to find out so it doesn't really cost you anything much and you can try it in conjunction with her other treatments. But can you really afford not to try it? Imagine if the ADHD was a misdiagnosis and you'd put her through all the Ritalin and everything else when just changing out the lemonade and Sunny Delight she drinks could cure it?

Yeah, it's an unproven theory at the moment (then again, people once argued smoking wasn't bad for you too). But it risks nothing to try it and there's one person who'll serve as empirical evidence right here.

Selected research abstracts here

[IgD]

I pasted a few abstracts below. The first is a neuroimaging study that shows anatomical differences between ADHD and normal patients. The second describes a genetic mechanism form ADHD. The third is another neuroimaging study. It shows that different areas of ADHD patients brains light up compared to normal patients when asked to perform a task that requires attention. You could do a lit search on Pub Med to find more:

Am J Psychiatry. 1994 Dec;151(12):1791-6.
Quantitative morphology of the caudate nucleus in attention deficit hyperactivity disorder.

Castellanos FX, Giedd JN, Eckburg P, Marsh WL, Vaituzis AC, Kaysen D, Hamburger SD, Rapoport JL.

Child Psychiatry Branch, NIMH, Bethesda, MD 20892.

OBJECTIVE: Because the caudate nuclei receive inputs from cortical regions implicated in executive functioning and attentional tasks, caudate and total brain volumes were examined in boys with attention deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD) and normal comparison subjects. To gain developmental perspective, a wide age range was sampled for both groups. METHOD: The brains of 50 male ADHD patients (aged 6-19) and 48 matched comparison subjects were scanned by magnetic resonance imaging (MRI). Volumetric measures of the head and body of the caudate nucleus were obtained from T1-weighted coronal images. Interrater reliabilities (intraclass correlations) were 0.89 or greater. RESULTS: The normal pattern of slight but significantly greater right caudate volume across all ages was not seen in ADHD. Mean right caudate volume was slightly but significantly smaller in the ADHD patients than in the comparison subjects, while there was no significant difference for the left. Together these facts accounted for the highly significant lack of normal asymmetry in caudate volume in the ADHD boys. Total brain volume was 5% smaller in the ADHD boys, and this was not accounted for by age, height, weight, or IQ. Smaller brain volume in ADHD did not account for the caudate volume or symmetry differences. For the normal boys, caudate volume decreased substantially (13%) and significantly with age, while in ADHD there was no age-related change. CONCLUSIONS: Along with previous MRI findings of low volumes in corpus callosum regions, these results support developmental abnormalities of frontal-striatal circuits in ADHD.

Biol Psychiatry. 1999 Nov 1;46(9):1234-42

Attention-deficit/hyperactivity disorder (ADHD) as a noradrenergic disorder.

Biederman J, Spencer T.

Pediatric Psychopharmacology Unit, Massachusetts General Hospital, Boston 02114, USA.

This review revisits the thesis that a dysregulation of the central noradrenergic networks may underlie the pathophysiology of ADHD. We review the pertinent neurobiological and pharmacological literature on ADHD. The noradrenergic system has been intimately associated with the modulation of higher cortical functions including attention, alertness, vigilance and executive function. Noradrenergic activation is known to profoundly affect the performance of attention, especially the maintenance of arousal, a cognitive function known to be deficient in ADHD. Data from family, adoption, twin, and segregation analysis strongly support a genetic hypothesis for this disorder. Although molecular genetic studies of ADHD are relatively new and far from definitive, several replicated reports have found associations between ADHD with DAT and D4 receptor genes. Brain imaging studies fit well with the idea that dysfunction in fronto-subcortical pathways occurs in ADHD with its underlying dysregulation of noradrenergic function. A wealth of pharmacological data (within and without the stimulant literature) provides strong evidence for selective clinical activity in ADHD for drugs with noradrenergic and dopaminergic pharmacological profiles. Available research provides compelling theoretic, basic biologic and clinical support for the notion that ADHD is a brain disorder of likely genetic etiology with etiologic and pathophysiologic heterogeneity. Neurobio

My thoughts

[macdaddy]

1) try more than one chemical treatment option. Try Ritalin. If you don't see any positive results after a few months of treatment, ask your doctor to try something else. Treat ADHD as seriously as you would treat cancer, heart disease, or diabetes. ie, seek out the professional help of more than one doctor, even a specialist. Ask to speak with some of their current or past patients (or their families) for their thoughts on the good doctor. You're shopping for a doctor, the effectiveness of their treatment(s), and their willingness to try other treatments. Don't just try one form of chemical treatment or one doctor and call it quits. Keep your options open.

2) Evaluate your daughter's teachers. I have a background in education thanks primarily to my mother being a Title I reading teacher. She brings her work home with her and the whole family is greatly involved in it much of the time. I've also worked for 3 educational institutions, mainly as an IT guy but also as a aide. I can think of numerous teachers that have neither the training nor the patience to work with a ADHD child. Simply put, if my child was diagnosed with ADHD and happened to be in one of their classrooms, I'd have them moved to another teachers room. Failing that I'd pull them from my local school district and drive them to a school district that has staff capable of effectively teaching an ADHD child. You should determine if your daughter's teachers can cope with her disorder. Would the school put her into special ed (very bad idea)? Does the school have any past experience with ADHD children? Is your daughter's class size small enough to get an adequate amount of attention from the teacher or her aides? Does the school have any special programs for students of such disorders than can offer the individualized attention she needs without the negative treatment of being placed in special ed?

You have a long road ahead of you. The good news is you are not alone. The Internet is filled with information about ADHD, the possible treatments, support groups, and much more. Consider looking into the services of institutions that specialize in child care such as Shriners. You may not need their financial assistence but you're sure to benefit from their knowledge. Best of luck to you and your family.

Re:400.00 on clothes & a drugged daughter. Gre

[jamesh]

The clothes thing was a joke. Laugh.

And even if it wasn't, $400 is not a lot to spend on clothing for 2 adults and 3 kids. One of which has feet which don't fit comfortably in any but reasonably expensive shoes. (take note - take care of your kids feet when they're young. $100 is nothing to spend on shoes if it saves a heap of problems later!!!)

None of which adds up to me not taking care of my kids. I don't see how you can gather enough evidence one way or another from anything i've ever posted to slashdot, even if you take it grossly out of context.

I don't know if you have kids or not, but it is so hard to see them having a hard time with day to day things (eg getting dressed in the morning), and being completely at a loss as to what to do about it. I've already answered on another post about why I asked the slashdot community. This isn't a substitution for professional advice, it's an addition to it.

Diabetes is treated with medication. Epilepsy is treated with medication (some of which has side effects far nastier than Ritalin). Various other psychological diseases are treated with medication. People are irrationally touchy about ADHD though.

Hope I didn't just feed the trolls!!!

Re:Not every ADHD sufferer agrees with this statem

[FsG]

and my mother wasn't being driven crazy by an overactive 5 year old

I think this hits at the heart of the problem, and the real reason such drugs are being overused nowadays: 5 year olds are supposed to be overactive. From the time they can walk, all non-human mammals are running around, playing/fighting with one-another, etc; this is extremely important, as those that don't get regular exercise and learn precise muscular control will soon become prey.

21st-century humans, however, are being put in school at extremely young ages. When they're supposed to be running around, getting exercise, and having fun, they're forced to sit in classroom and stare at a book. Naturally, the teacher can't do her job when the kids won't sit still, so the school will pressure the parents into giving these drugs to their kids.

Damn right 5-year-olds get distracted, and why shouldn't they?

Just a few quick notes

[adipocere]

1) It's not "ADD," it's "ADHD." The DSM-IV was very clear about the change. You can look for it under the 314.00 and 314.01 codes.

2) It has a genetic component. It's trackable in the genome. Hey, it even shows up on a PET scan, for those of you non-believers. "It's just something they're making up" does not show up on a PET scan.

3) ADHD can be easily overdiagnosed. I tend not to trust diagnoses made without the use of a CPT (Continuous Performance Test) or a TOVA (Test Of Variables of Attention). These are real performance tests, not answering some questions.

4) I know a guy who did some large project on the way to his Ph.D. in psychology on using biofeedback for ADHD. He had ADHD and the subject was of interest to him. Basically, he found that people with ADHD couldn't maintain the focus to make biofeedback work. Biofeedback can be very useful, but, to use a loose analogy, in this instance it is like having someone try to build up their biceps through weightlifting if they are paralyzed from the neck down.

Over diagnosis - the problem

[spoco2]

"That being said I belive there is an over diagnosis in children"

And this is why, I think, there are so many of the comments you hear... because there are so many 'problem' children who are just labelled as having ADHD to explain disobedience.

My parents were foster parents for many years while I lived with them, and they were often sent the 'problem' children as they were seen to be excellent in handling them. I remember one girl in particular who came to us labelled as having ADHD and a 'handful' and unable to focus or be handled.

Within ONE WEEK my parents had her happily ensconsed reading books, playing with toys etc. for ages at a time with no drugs, no fancy methods... just good old parenting, and a firm hand where required. (I don't mean physically a hand as such, I mean sticking to your ground when you say things like "No, you can't have that" or such things... not giving in to demands etc.)

So very many cases are like this, and it's THOSE cases that cause you the grief... I can't help but have the same feelings about most ADHD diagnosed kids because just so many of them have nothing wrong, it's just a convenient out for parents... which is wrong of me as there are real issues at hand here, but until doctors stop throwing the label about willy nilly, the stigma will remain.

Neural Feedback Therapy Works

[digitalFX]

Speaking for my loving girlfriend... "I interned with a biofeedback therapist that specialized in the neural feedback training. I worked with children who were diagnosed with everyting from ODD, ADHD, Autism, and many other behavioral problems. In the short time that I was there I saw an amazing improvement in my children with ADHD. The improvement was so drastic that many were taken off ritalin, and only used neural feedback therapy as their only treatment. From my history in Psychology and my background knowledge in Neuroscience, I would hightly recommend you place you daughter in Neural Feedback Therapy. I believe our youth is over-medicated and NFT is going to be our future answer to genetic, neuronal, and behavioral problems. Good Luck!"

my sister uses it

[Nihilanth]

i think i may have posted on here before about this, but i'll mention it again anyway.

My little sister does neuro-feedback/bio-feedback therapy, and its improved her life a lot more than flooding her brain with amphetamines like they do to most of the poor little bastards that float through the US "education" system. Keep in mind that ADHD is a pretty subjective thing to diagnose someone with, and people are quick to medicate for it, although very few of the people diagnosed with it really need to be taking meth every day to keep it under control. Psychotropic drugs are not really designed to help anyone, just make their behaviors easier to manage for those of us in the human services field.

Anyway (sorry about that soapboxing) my little sister is supposedly bipolar, ADHD, and emotionally disturbed. She's been taking biofeedback therapy and karate lessons for a few years now, and the benefits from the therapy were apperant very quickly (i'd say a month or two, but your milage may vary). After the series of "games" that the therapy takes the form of, with "points" to be earned towards reinforcers (money, ice cream, charts with stickers on them, etc), the therapy simultaniously simplifies and complexifies into computer-aided transcendental meditation. pretty nifty.

Many insurance providers now cover this (but by no means the majority), Oxford insurance in CT comes to mind, but without insurance the therapy usually costs about 1000 a year with a mix of simple use of the machine and sessions with the therapist (which cost more per session). Its easy to learn how to calibrate the machine (its similar to polygraph calibration, but cooler), making sessions with the therapist an excellent option but by no means nessisary.

The equipment can be purchased at www.brainfingers.com for around 2000 (last i checked, maybe its lower now). The equipment they sell there even has a neuro-to-midi program and the SDK included in the package!!

Anyway, anybody considering poisoning their children just so they can deal with them easier should look into therapy like neuro-feedback that results in actual growth and change rather than homeostasis and chemical restraint.

Thats not to say that these drugs don't have their place, i have another family member who wouldn't be with us right now if not for depakote and wellbutrin, but think twice before drugging someone up just because they don't think the same way you do and give neuro-feedback a shot. its -FUN-.

Its interesting to note that the research and development that resulted in this therapy originated in the fallout of the ill-conceived and unconstitutional prohibition on the scientific research of LSD. The people who didn't get locked up moved their equipment to study people practicing yoga and found that using their equipment, the same states of mind could be reached in 2 weeks that would have taken 2 years unassisted by neuro-feedback. chew on that for a while.

My experience with neurofeedback

[hecamet]

In response to Cliff's original post and questions, I have used neurofeedback in the past to support me in overcoming ADHD like symptoms. Due to a general fear in our family about psychology in general, I never was formally diagnosed with ADHD, but have been told several times by friends that are licensed psycologist that I had all of the signs of this condition. (As an example, to do my homework as a kid I turned the radio and the TV on at the same time). As an adult I continued to have problems with this. Because of my general concern about medicating this issue, I chose not to go down a medication path. I was concerned with my perception that medication seemed to cut the performance curve of what was possible for me to do... I worked for a while with neurofeedback, and was truly suprised that it helped my concentration. From there, given its expense, I was not able to afford a lot of treatments. I never was able to find a medically proven device (other than the one from EEG Spectrum that the psychologist that I worked with) that was inexpensive enough for me to buy to go forward with further treatments after my cash supply ran out for this. However, the limited number of treatments did seem to really make a difference. It is noteworthy, at least in my case, that I also dealt with some of my issues through exercise 4 days a week in a rigorous martial art class. (specifically Aikido). Moreover, after the neurofeedback, I also enrolled, and now have been a student of a meditation practice (for the last 4.5 years- zazen) that has been of continuing support for me. I still have difficulties at times from wanting to get up, go to the bathroom, look outside, read my mail, check slashdot, and then repeat in the next 20 minutes, especially when I get off of my routine of exercising in Aikido and meditation... You might look into several different directions on this, not just neurofeedback. Good luck.

Drake institute and Juggling

[chris_mahan]

I went to Drake institute, summer 2002. (http://www.drakeinstitute.com/)

Visual bio-feedback and all.

I also, on the advice of my japanese wife who saw study done in japan on ADD and the relationship with the brain when under video-game mode and Alzeimer's, and their treatment was three-ball juggling. For ten minutes straight.

I couldn't juggle, at all.

I got the hang of it, slowly, trying every day. If I did 5 I was happy.
That was summer of 2003.

On Dec 20, 2003 I hit 1150 juggles.

Last week, I did 1900 straight.

Now, I stop at ten minutes, and don't even count.

The level of concentration is insane when you get to above 500. The brain wants to stop, to roam, to defocus and wander.
Yet 1/2 second of defocus, and the ball is on the floor.

You can't blink, you can't let your mind wander, you can't let your eyes stray.

Now, when I am feeling myself drift, I imagine that I am juggling fast (at 4/sec or so), and I get very focused very fast, and I can concentrate on the task at hand.

About biofeedback: It's a way for you to train yourself to relax yourself (I imagine my hands and feet are warm and do deep breathing exercises) and to focus your mind. It visually lets you know the spot you want to be at. Once you "get it" you know it, then don't need the visual feedback to know you're focused.

But like everything else, if you don't use it, you lose it.

Ultimately it's worked for me. My relationship with my wife has improved dramatically, my job is not suffering, my firends have all noticed a difference, and my schooling is progressing rapidly.

I'm 35. Yes it was expensive ($5500 for 40 1 hr sessions), yet in the grand scheme of things, it's not.

Oh, and My driving has improved greatly (I had 3 accidents in 4 years, but nothing, not even a scratch, since).

To poster: If you want to contact me, it's chris_mahan hat yahoo dotte com.

PS: The first 10 sessions were for stress reduction, learning how to drop stress levels. Very effective even though I slept through 3 sessions :)

Re:ADHD is not real.

[Mycroft_VIII]

False. poorly labled, over-diagnosed, missunderstood, overmedicated, yes. Unreal no.
I have what is called add/adhd, I know others with it and others without, it's very deffinately real.
It's bad to call it a dissorder however. I can do things many cannot because of it and there are somethings that are nearly impossible that many can do also.
I can track and keep up with a larger number of things than most for one (one could argue that intelligence plays a roll in this, but that alone is insufficient.) but narrow to one item and I usually just cannot unless It absorbs me and I hyperfocus (a known trait of 'add/adhd', what others above call a 'death march').
I've noticed the tendancy for add people to higher I.Q.'s than 'normal' people as well, It's one of my pet hypothesis that the brain, like other machines, when run in high performance modes all the time are more likely to develope issues. Kinda like race car engines and such, they need a lot of maintenance. My other idea was that since alot of how we think is by association and interconnecting data that add may just be more so, with the attendant lots of extraneous info/data floating through the concious mind as a result.
I know I'm probably feeding a troll, but I knew I would be posting somewhere in this anyway.

Mycroft

Re:Occam's Razor

[T5]

I understand your skepticism of my earlier remarks. Attempting to stay on topic, I shortcutted my explanation of why I believe I am/was(?) affected by ADHD.

I was high school valedictorian. I rarely, if ever, had any homework. I never felt challenged by any of my school work. So my work ethic vis a vis homework was not as tuned as I needed it to be for college. That certainly had something to do with it. In retrospect, I was a bit immature as well. However, according to a quick consultation with my son's psychistrist, who himself has ADHD, (1) ADHD is inherited, and my son's mother has little to no symptoms herself (class valedictorian a year ahead of me), and (2) I show almost all of the signs of being ADHD, however mild, in a twenty question list that the psychistrist provided. My one scholastic weakness was in my handwriting. It was terrible. The processing required to properly write characters in order is immense, far more than I originally thought. That was my first clue about my son as well. His handwriting was abyssmal, but the real problem was that he could not write sentences. He could speak them well enough, but couldn't even dictate to himself and get them onto paper! I didn't have the pen-to-paper problem, but my writing was nearly illegible.

College is an startling experience for most kids, me included. But there were times, especially the first couple of quarters, when I thought I had forgotten to pack my brain when I moved off to college. I could not concentrate at a level that I could before. Fiercely academically competitive, I found that I could not perform at a level that I was satisfied with, one that approximated my earlier results. I expected college to be more difficult, but not to the point that I just didn't grasp the material. Something was clearly wrong here. It was about 15 years later when my son's problem cropped up that I recognized ADHD as the cause of much of my problems in college.

Based on this new revelation that I have/had ADHD, I believe that to a large degree my symptoms were mitigated by the intense exposure to second hand cigarette smoke that was pervasive throughout my childhood. Nicotine has been shown in many experiments to sharpen many mental tasks, including concentration. My notes from my first quarter of college show a moderate but distinct decrease in the legibility of my handwriting over my senior high school work. I'll admit that these signs are by no means rock solid evidence, but I certainly believe them to substantiate that I was positively affected by nicotine (no, this is not a pro-tobacco stance - let me make that perfectly clear. I had to deal with my mother's cancer operations and chemotherapy enough in my childhood) enough to lessen the severity of my ADHD.

I can't claim this as a revelation in the field of cognitive science, either. I don't have a reference handy, but I have seen studies to suggest that some people return to tobacco use after kicking the habit precisely because of their diminished ability to concentrate, some after even years without tobacco. Anyone who's been around a tobacco addict or is one can attest to their behavioral differences based upon their nicotine levels.

Check Scientific Studies Before Generalizing

[1HandClapping]

Search NIMH and JAMA articles. There are non-medical treatments for some mental disorders that are scientically proven. E.g. Cognative Behavioral Thearpy (CBT), for Obsesive Compulsive Disorder (OCD)

My wife is a Child Psychiatrist and medical researcher. In addition to reasearch and clinical work, she works 10 hrs a week with an agency that helps foster and adoptive parents.

I have heard stories from both ends of the spectrum. One where a foster parent wanted to medicate a perfectly normal child just so they could more easily manage an inquisitive child in a boring environment.

And an other case where the parents were strongly opposed to med's but ther little boy was literally climbing the walls knocking books of the self in a 15 minute interview. After meds the boy was much, much, much better, and happier. The parents could not believe the difference and felt bad about the boy suffering so long.

True ADHD is socially very difficult on the child. Untreated, an ADHD child has an increased chance of drug abuse.

I mentioned Cliff's post to my wife and she, like an other poster, recommend Strattera. Strattera is a non stimulant ADHD drug that is as effective as Ritalin.

ADHD is both the most under-diagnosed, and over-diagnosed childhood desease. As much as 30% of ADHD children are left undiagnosed. Many times their parents think "boys will be boys" or "I was like that" (Umm there is strong genetic basis). On the over-diagnosed side, upto 15% of diagnosed children may actually be bipolar. If your child is not responding well to ADHD Meds, talk to a Child Psychiatrist. A pediatrician is not as trained to make the distinction between ADHD and Bipolar Disorder.

There is a spectrum ADHD severity. There are very severe cases where it is totally unfair and hurtful to call it "bad parenting". And there are mild cases where coping strategies alone may help.

Also confusing matters in the mild cases, sometimes "labeling" the child as ADHD can make the difference in getting extra reasources to an acedemically struggling child.

Work with a doctor to find the best solution.

[Java Ape]

Like everyone else posting here, I've been diagnosed with ADD. Fortunately, my symptoms are relatively mild, and I've been able to function pretty normally without medication. So, I can get away with the "gut it out, learn adaptive techniques and deal with it" approach.

My son, however, is another matter entirely. He's a great guy, but he's got ADHD in a FAR more acute form than I do. Lesson one, not everyone diagnosed with this disorder is in the same boat. Like good parents, we took our little darling to the doctor soon after he started kindergarten, where the teacher didn't appreciate his caroming off the walls like a biological billard ball. Ritlin, of course, was prescribed immediately.

My happy little fireball turned into a mopey, depressed little jellyfish. The teachers were happy -- he was now easy to control! Back to the doctor -- adjusting dosages gave big improvements, but never was just right. The side-effects were as bad as the ADHD.

They changed drugs, Adderol(sp) and several others. The doctor was getting testy, saying we should be satisfied with "good enough". We changed doctors. Lesson two: Keep trying!

FINALLY, a doctor tried Imapramine. It's an old-style antidepressant, with some interesting side-effects (like "slowing down" the mental machinery a bit). My son never had the anger problems and antisocial behavior frequently associated with ADHD, he just couldn't concnentrate - my wife would make him literally sit on his hands while she tried to help him with school work, and he'd just vibrate with unspent energy. It was a long-shot, but the doctor thought my son's symptoms might respond to the side-effects of Imaprimamine. It worked beautifully. He's still pretty "bouncy", but he's in control of himself. His grades are, frankly, not stellar. He's happy, productive, inquisitive, and alert, not doped-up on the typical ADD drugs. Lesson three Decide what results you want, realizing that the goal isn't necessarily to make your kid "just like everyone else", but to the best version of them they can be.

Anyway, ADD/ADHD IS a serious problem, unless you have a mild case like mine, and every treament has plusses and minuses. During the years we were trying different treatments, I got to see my son put through an emotional and physical taffy-puller, but we found a treatment that seems to fit HIS situation well, reducing the symptoms that are limiting to him without impairing or redefining who he is beneath it all. Keep working at it, and you should find something that works for your daughter.