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Linus Says 2004 is the Year for Desktop Linux

Posted by michael on from the huddled-masses-yearning-to-breathe-free dept.

lca writes "Linuxworld Australia has an interview with Linus Torvalds about the current state of the Linux desktop and where it will go this year among other things. Also discussed are topics such as hardware support, the SCO issue, and whether or not he will be moving to Australia."

67 of 727 comments (clear)

  1. They missed one. by grub · · Score: 5, Funny


    They didn't ask Linus if he paid his $699 licensing fee to SCO. It'd be a shame for him to have to stop working on their OS..

    --
    Trolling is a art,
  2. Australia? by probbka · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Why would any computer-savvy person want to move to Australia? They've got some of the toughest Internet censorship laws in the free world, IIRC...

    --
    Only requirement for good karma: be pedantic as much and as often as possible.
    1. Re:Australia? by epiphani · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Not only that, but the bandwidth is super expensive, and broadband is not exactly overly availible.

      But what im curious about is why he says "I definitely won't be moving back to Finland though." Whats wrong with Finland?

      --
      .
    2. Re:Australia? by kaisyain · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Even computer-savvy people have other (and possibly higher) priorities in life than Internet censorship laws. Why is that so hard to understand?

    3. Re:Australia? by RabidStoat · · Score: 5, Funny
      5) toilets flush in opposite direction.

      Must get damn expensive in cleaning products. I mean you gotta wonder why someone bright spark hasn't thought about making the stuff go down when you flush.

    4. Re:Australia? by arloguthrie · · Score: 5, Funny

      There's nothing wrong with Finland, except that it's so far from Japan, quite a long way from Cairo, and lots of miles from Vietnam.

      --
      ----------
      Cheese it! It's the FEDS!
    5. Re:Australia? by Fulkkari · · Score: 5, Informative
      Whats wrong with Finland?

      I don't know about Linus, but it is damn dark and cold here. The days are in the middle of December only a couple of hours long, and you see the sun only a couple of times a month. It is something like the darkness you see in LOTR. No wonder Tolkien was interested in Finland. :-P

      PS. The bandwidth is pretty expensive here too.

      --
      I demand the Cone of Silence!
    6. Re:Australia? by Gordonjcp · · Score: 4, Funny

      Hmmm, over here in the North of Scotland, it never really gets light in the Winter at 55 degrees North (when will the fucking Slashdot janitors let us use HTML entities? Morons), but in the summer it never really gets dark...

    7. Re:Australia? by G-funk · · Score: 3, Funny

      Coz it's flamin tops! Crikey! What kind of galah would you have to be to want to move to Ostraya? It's bonza. Sure we're a bit spread out, but you can always get on the al capone when you need to have your weekly earbashing from the rellos. Besides, over in yankie-town you can't get a pavlova, a lamington, or even a nice dead dog's eye with a bit of dead horse! Strewth - how can you trust a nation of people who can't stomach vegemite, and think beer should taste like bud light? You can play the pokies down the local, bet on the fairy league without going to gaol, it's the bestest place on earth - fair dinkum!

      --
      Send lawyers, guns, and money!
  3. people say a lot of stuff by El_Muerte_TDS · · Score: 3, Funny

    640kb is more than we'll ever need

    1. Re:people say a lot of stuff by micromoog · · Score: 4, Funny

      Iraq has weapons of mass destruction

    2. Re:people say a lot of stuff by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      I've got weapons of math instruction!

      At New York's Kennedy airport today, an individual later
      discovered to be a public school teacher was arrested trying
      to board a flight while in possession of a ruler, a
      protractor, a setsquare, a slide rule, and a calculator.

      At a morning press conference, Attorney general John Ashcroft
      said he believes the man is a member of the notorious
      al-gebra movement. He is being charged by the FBI with
      carrying weapons of math instruction.

      "Al-gebra is a fearsome cult,", Ashcroft said. "They desire
      average solutions by means and extremes, and sometimes go off
      on tangents in a search of absolute value. They use secret
      code names like "x" and "y" and refer to themselves as
      "unknowns", but we have determined they belong to a common
      denominator of the axis of medieval with coordinates in every country.

      "As the Greek philanderer Isosceles used to say, there are 3
      sides to every triangle," Ashcroft declared.

      When asked to comment on the arrest, President Bush said, "If
      God had wanted us to have better weapons of math instruction,
      He would have given us more fingers and toes.

      "I am gratified that our government has given us a sine that
      it is intent on protracting us from these math-dogs who are
      willing to disintegrate us with calculus disregard. Murky
      statisticians love to inflict plane on every sphere of
      influence," the President said, adding: "Under the
      circumferences, we must differentiate their root, make our
      point, and draw the line."

      President Bush warned, "These weapons of math instruction
      have the potential to decimal everything in their math on a
      scalene never before seen unless we become exponents of a
      Higher Power and begin to factor-in random facts of vertex."

      Attorney General Ashcroft said, "As our Great Leader would
      say, read my ellipse. Here is one principle he is uncertainty
      of: though they continue to multiply, their days are numbered
      as the hypotenuse tightens around their necks."

    3. Re:people say a lot of stuff by happyfrogcow · · Score: 4, Funny

      Slashdot... Stuff that Matters ;)

      (kidding!)

    4. Re:people say a lot of stuff by TimoP · · Score: 4, Funny

      Windows is about choice.

  4. Patience little one -- patience! by drizst+'n+drat · · Score: 4, Interesting

    "The server space is easier to tackle first with any operating system as it can be applied to specific tasks such as mail serving; however, the desktop is harder to sell." This may be true but it sure isn't impossible. It will just take some time. Can't run until you can first crawl.

    1. Re:Patience little one -- patience! by nathanh · · Score: 3, Insightful
      Being a Mac user, I've learned to take these kind of prognostications with a grain of salt over the years. Linux has a good foundation and it's nearly free but that's no where near enough to win the hearts and minds of the average computer user. Obviously it has to do what they need, with the minimum amount of hassle and the maximum amount of pleasure. Linux has too many loose ends, too much variability, and a really substandard user interface at this point. It's going to have to be at least as polished as Windows and probably closer to OS X level before it really starts swaying people. I'm eager to use Linux and I check out all the distributions when they have notable releases, but nothing has shown me a reason to switch, not even for a bare bones e-mail/web machine.

      I've been a Linux user for the past 12 years and it has been my primary desktop for most of those (as in, no dual-boot, just Linux). I've lived through TWM and FVWM. I've hand-editted Modelines with the aide of a calculator. I've suffered through the growing pains of Linux on the desktop. I say all this to show that I know that the Linux desktop has big hairy warts.

      Recently I bought an Apple iBook G4 and it came with all the latest MacOSX software. I toyed with MacOSX for about an hour before reformatting and installing Linux. I honestly prefer Linux as my desktop. It does exactly what I want with no fuss or effort. I haven't needed to edit a config file in more than two years. XFree86 doesn't even need Modelines anymore; they're all autodiscovered with DDC and EDID. Even traditional UNIX applications are configured with debconf; I just click on the little GUI buttons that appear after selecting my package updates in the GUI software manager. The Linux desktop has all the applications I want (ie, email, browser, word processor). All the features I want (ie, MP3, DVD). And all the games I want (ie, chess). It's a perfect setup for me.

      Does the Linux desktop still have warts? Sure, but from my experiences at work, so does Windows. And I've owned various Macintoshes including more than one PowerPC model, so I know MacOS has warts too (at least Classic did, I don't know a lot about MacOSX)! I think Linux as a desktop is great. It's my preference. I don't care if you don't use it; your usage or non-usage of Linux doesn't affect me either way. But I think you're mistaken if you think there's no compelling reason to use Linux on the desktop. The fact that many of us do use Linux on the desktop should be your first hint that it offers something, even if you can't see what that something is.

  5. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  6. I would have to agree. by MoOsEb0y · · Score: 5, Interesting

    With the advent of the 2.6 series kernel, along with the efforts for compatability between KDE and GNOME, I think linux is getting very close for the desktop. I already use it as a desktop OS on my laptop with few problems. With a little bit more effort, even so -called "dummies" will be able to work with it as well.

    1. Re:I would have to agree. by aheath · · Score: 3, Insightful
      "With a little bit more effort, even so -called "dummies" will be able to work with it as well."

      The so called 'dummies" really don't care much about the operating system that they are using. They care much more about the applications that they are running. They also care about the availability of training and support for the operating system and applications.

      The computer using world can be reoughly divided into two categories:

      (1) People who want to think about the work their doing, but don't want to think about the computer technology they are using.

      (2) People who want to think about the work they are doing and who like to think about how the computer is doing the work.

      The first group wants reliability, stability, and transparency. They d not want to spend a lot of time fixing or upgrading their computer. They do not want to spend a lot of time working on a computer that crashes. They do not want to spend a lot of time thinking about how to do their work. Their main interest is in what works, not necessarily what works best.

      They won't switch to Linux from something that is good enough to allow them to do their work. They may switch to Linux if they are upgrading a computer and it is clear that Linux will allow them to do their work without giving much thought to how the computer works.

    2. Re:I would have to agree. by ticklemeozmo · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I already use it as a desktop OS on my laptop with few problems.

      As much I don't feel like burning Karma here with Flamebait, this is exactly the reason it's not ready. It runs on a laptop with "few problems". Few problems is a reason enough not to switch.

      Will my USB Camera work? Can 1-touch scanning be setup without the use of a complex script? Joe Dialup doesn't want to go to Sourceforge to find a piece of software called gkehjg2 just to get his device to install and compile (compile? what's that!)

      The install for Linux is CLOSE, I believe Fedora(/Redhat) needs to handle their package selection better (why install isdn-tools defaultly??) and file systems scare all but people who use it daily.

      Where are you files? "My Documents". How do you move it to another harddrive? "". How do you open it? "Double click it." How do you open that same file in a different program? "You can do that?"

      For anyone on Linux, Windows seems like a "toy OS" because everything is hidden. Well, that's what most computer beginners want! They don't have time/don't care about a dependancy, they want it to work, NOW!

      I like being the different person on the block, make it just a lil easier so people other than hobbists can use it, but not so secretaries of CEOs can and I'll be happy.

      --
      When modding "Informative", please make sure it both has a source and IS actually informative.
    3. Re:I would have to agree. by IANAAC · · Score: 3, Insightful
      It runs on a laptop with "few problems". Few problems is a reason enough not to switch.

      I've said this before, but I'll repeat it. This is really an old argument. If you were to install Windows XP on the same laptop from scratch, you would run into the same (possibly more) problems. Here's a little experiment I recently did:

      I bought an emachine laptop (M5310) not too long ago. It came with XP Home installed. I wiped it clean. Installed Suse 9 on it. I had to change a line in /etc/XF86Config to get the proper screen resolution (1280x800). Hot-plug devices (PC cards and USB) worked properly. ACPI worked fine, although I had to futz with the power-management settings a bit (/etc/sysconfig/powermanagement) to get proper CPU throttling. Other than that, SUSE loaded fine.
      Now I decided to load XP Professional. Why professional instead of Home? Well, I had a full copy of XP PRO and didn't have a full Home copy. That's right. The laptop did not ship with the full media. It came with a Ghost image.
      Let me tell you... XP Pro barfed all over the place. Could not get wireless working. Screen resolution was 1280-768 stretched (I probably could have found a way to fix this, admittedly). Somehow, after the initial install, the CD/DVD drive was gone. Couldn't get it back. Only one USB port worked - how XP managed that I don't know.

      My point is that there will always be problems with getting any machine working properly after a fresh install - Linux, XP, BSD. The real key to desktop acceptance by Joe Camera/Scanner/Dialup is for manufacturers to ship boxes with Linux loaded and a generous set of drivers/modules installed - they're out there. All it takes is for one major computer maker to do the quality testing of everything for their hardware.

  7. Linuxworld server already melting... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

    Linux breaks desktop barrier in 2004: Torvalds

    Rodney Gedda , Computerworld

    15/01/2004 15:43:16

    This year will see Linux finally crack the lucrative desktop market as more commercial software vendors tool up and cash in on the operating system and kernel developers improve graphical interface integration says cult hero and Linux founder Linus Torvalds. Computerworld's Rodney Gedda cornered the penguin power supremo at the Linux.Conf.au in Adelaide.

    Computerworld: How do you feel Linux on the desktop is progressing?

    Linus Torvalds: Last year was good but I'm seeing a lot more noise about it this year. The server space is easier to tackle first with any operating system as it can be applied to specific tasks such as mail serving; however, the desktop is harder to sell.

    Now, the kernel and other pieces are coming together including office applications, games and Web browsers. This has made the Linux desktop interesting to commercials. Commercials tend to choose one desktop, such as KDE or GNOME (GNU Network Object Model Environment), and stick with it. There has been some confusion and rivalry that has helped its development. Right now it looks like the two are closing in on each other, for example, with Red Hat's Bluecurve interface.

    I don't think X is going away as it has a powerful infrastructure and throwing it away would be stupid. And its network transparency is good. It's likely that X will be the 2D interface to a lower-level graphics system that is based on OpenGL. The Linux desktop wants to have 3D as the base and X as the interface to 2D.

    The fact that X and kernel development have been separate is good; one could evolve without the other but DRI (Direct Rendering Infrastructure) has made them not completely independent. As a developer, having the two separate is good, because different people are good at developing for each.

    CW: Any plans for 2004?

    LT: I've never had much of a plan for the direction of Linux as I react to outside pressure. This year there will be a lot of desktop users, which will impact kernel developers.

    For now I will be working the stabilisation of kernel 2.6 and in a month or two I expect Fedora (the core of Red Hat Linux) to have a release with 2.6 so I expect to get more bug reports.

    CW: Would adopting an integrated hardware and software system be good for Linux?

    LT: There are pure technical disadvantages of having an operating system that supports a wide range of hardware. The variety of hardware makes it challenging as Linux needs thousands of drivers.

    But having an operating system that is independent of the hardware is powerful for the user as it is basically the same on big and small machines. Another big advantage of a wide hardware base is an operating system that is more flexible. This is why Linux is having a lot of impact in the embedded space. An operating system is a complex beast, so it's nice to have an existing one that can be adapted to the hardware. There are a few problem spots with Linux driver support by hardware companies and wireless is one of them. With hardware getting better this problem is being solved.

    CW: What about Linux in the enterprise?

    LT: The direction Linux takes in the enterprise will depend on what resources enterprise companies put into it. This is the one thing that will push Linux into the high end.

    IBM is the most obvious, and although it is impressive to run Linux on high-end hardware, most of the people who work on Linux don't have access to it. It's the regular desktops that get most of the attention by programmers.

    CW: What about open source code bundling by commercial software companies?

    LT: Quite often that's fine and it is fine with BSD (Berkely Software/Standard Distribution) code. But I like the GPL (General Public Licence), because I want people to give [code] back. If hardware appliance makers don't give back code then that's a problem, but giving it back shouldn't cause any problems. And

  8. And I agree. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

    Look at all the interesting software for linux coming out soon

    KDE 3.2
    Gnome 2.6
    Gimp 2.0
    Mplayer 1.0
    OpenOffice 2.0
    More games than ever
    and hundreds of others.

    Combine this with kernel 2.6, and with many distros going to be version 10.0 this year, this is going to be great.

    KDE 3.2 will be out soon, its so easy to use, no wonder its the most popular desktop environement for Linux.

    1. Re:And I agree. by grahamlee · · Score: 4, Insightful

      None of KDE, GNOME, Gimp, mplayer or OpenOffice come out for Linux. They just come out. They'll be available in BSD ports systems, for Solaris, AIX, HP-UX, SCO UnixWare, and in the case of KDE, mplayer and Gimp, native Mac OS X. Yes, this software is available for Linux. But it's not Linux software. A "Linux PC", such as this one, contains a whole mishmash of software, which is running atop a Linux kernel. That could so easily be a FreeBSD kernel, a Darwin kernel, a SunOS 5 kernel, Windows running SFU, WIndows running Cygwin, whatever. The source is available and people will build it on their own platforms.

  9. Agree by bryansj · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I'd have to agree with it being close to having a real viable desktop solution. Having LiveCD's in place, such as Knoppix, showing off the ease of running Linux will help bring it to the masses. It's much easier to try Linux if you just have to boot from CD and then "play" instead of having to commit to the install process. My Knoppix installed Debian feels solid compared to the "feel" of Mandrake and Suse which makes me more likely to recommend it to others that I see as borderline tech savy.

  10. Won't be moving back to Finland by burgburgburg · · Score: 4, Funny
    I definitely won't be moving back to Finland though.

    Or is it "Can't move back to Finland"? Has he crossed the Finnish mafia once too often? Did he wake up to find smelt heads in his bed? What's the REAL story here?

  11. Who will win ? by Krapangor · · Score: 3, Insightful
    If Linux get Desktop world domination then this raises the question which desktop will rule them all. It's relatively unlikely that two desktops will be supported to the same extend by the OSS community.
    So, what do you think KDE or Gnome ?

    My bet goes on Gnome because it has better backing by Debian, Novell and Redhat.

    --
    Owner of a Mensa membership card.
  12. Re:No offense, by ainsoph · · Score: 3, Insightful

    cos the kernel is what all that stuff lays on top of.

  13. Right... by IntergalacticWalrus · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Future slashdot headline:
    "Linus says 2034 really, really is the Year for Desktop Linux, honest! I'm pretty damn sure this time! I swear!"

    Seriously, we hear that every goddamn year since 2002. It's an annual thing, like those stupid so-called analysts saying "Apple is dying this year".

    It's not that I'm against it, in fact I am a desktop Linux user, but this is just ridiculous.

    1. Re:Right... by Joel+Bruick · · Score: 3, Funny

      Oh no! Not "every goddamn year since 2002"! That's been...two whole years!

  14. isn't kernel a part of it? by DenOfEarth · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I was wondering similar things myself on reading the headline. I haven't yet installed 2.6 on my machine yet, but I have heard that it is a bit 'snappier', which I believe goes a long way towards making the desktop seem like you are controlling it, rather than having it control you. The KDE / gnome work, is also very important, but a solid fast user-responsive kernel is a boon to anyone trying to sell anyone else on linux on the desktop.

  15. Desktop 3D? by ZiZ · · Score: 3, Insightful
    (Linus says:) I don't think X is going away as it has a powerful infrastructure and throwing it away would be stupid. And its network transparency is good. It's likely that X will be the 2D interface to a lower-level graphics system that is based on OpenGL. The Linux desktop wants to have 3D as the base and X as the interface to 2D.

    Um...Why do we want a 3D desktop? It seems to me that first of all, 3D is always going to be slower to manage and display than 2D; monitors (even the newer ones with the spiffy multi-layer technology) don't really handle 3D displays well. Yes, I want my 3D displays, such as they are, for gaming; I don't see any real need or use for it in a business desktop, though.

    Feel free to correct me here, but I don't read text on a slanted pane very well...:)

    --
    This flies in the face of science.
    1. Re:Desktop 3D? by be-fan · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Its not being to be a 3D desktop. Its going to use 3D hardware on current graphics cards to allow for really rich 2D artwork. Current-gen 3D hardware can do Quartz-style anti-aliased, transparent 2D without breaking a sweat, and that's what developers want to take advantage of.

      --
      A deep unwavering belief is a sure sign you're missing something...
    2. Re:Desktop 3D? by be-fan · · Score: 3, Informative

      Eh? We're actually ahead of the game. Freedesktop.org (the most likely sucessor to XFree86) is working on an OpenGL-accelerated XServer as we speak :) They're ripping out the DRI from the X server and making an independent layer out of it. Its *fascinating* work. If a first release comes out early 2005, then we will beat Longhorn to the market by about a year.

      Oh, and OS X isn't already there, contrary to popular belief. It uses OpenGL, but in a very limited way, only for compositing windows together. All 2D is done via the CPU, and its dependence on the PDF model might make it more complex for them to transition Quartz2D to OpenGL.

      --
      A deep unwavering belief is a sure sign you're missing something...
  16. Good enough for desktop matters not by Silicon+Knight · · Score: 4, Insightful

    This year will see Linux finally crack the lucrative desktop market as more commercial software vendors tool up and cash in on the operating system and kernel developers improve graphical interface integration says cult hero and Linux founder Linus Torvalds.

    Yes, Linux is a suitable desktop replacement. I still don't see a significant number of people making the switch. What is the motivation for the average user who has invested time in learning Windows to switch?

    Aside from impoverished goverments in third world countries (California anyone?) are the masses going to bother learning something new when what they have tends to meet their needs?

    1. Re:Good enough for desktop matters not by Hugh+George+Asm · · Score: 5, Interesting
      Yes, Linux is a suitable desktop replacement. I still don't see a significant number of people making the switch. What is the motivation for the average user who has invested time in learning Windows to switch?

      Well, I have some experience here. My mom ran windows for the last 3 years. She doesn't know computers, but that's what her DELL had on it. She has been it with virii and recently some adware that prominently displayed itself on her desktop.

      Her computer runs slower and she doesn't know why. Probably unknown background processes chewing up CPU. All she does is email and surf the web, but the computer crashes and she is annoyed beyond belief with it. She is begging me to put something better on her machine, and she SPECIFICALLY asked for linux. She knows about linux as an alternative because I've mentioned that it's what I run on my machines. Her problems with windows have led her to conclude that she'd rather try something--anything--than continue running what she has. Oh yeah, she has paid "her guru" to come over and fix problems several times, and is tired of hiring someone to fix things that shouldn't be broken. So, an unstable, unreliable, virus-ridden, expensive operating system is its own incentive to switch. At least for MY mom.

  17. Re:No offense, by mydigitalself · · Score: 4, Insightful

    contrary to some of the other responses to your post - i agree with you wholeheartedly. success and penetration of the desktop will have very little to do with performance from 2.6 kernel - but rather with good usability practices within the community.

  18. Interesting that Linus's laptop runs Windows too by GillBates0 · · Score: 5, Interesting
    According to this old interview with Linus covered in this old Slashdot story, Linus uses a Linux-Windows dual-boot:

    What's his latest toy?

    A Sony Electronics Inc. Vaio, Japanese edition. It's a handheld PC that has a 4-GB hard disk, 64 MB of RAM and a Pentium MMX 266-MHz processor. It weighs in at just 2.6 pounds and runs both Linux and Windows. "It's cute as hell." Oh, and it has a built-in camera.

    Now imagine Billy-boy using Linux (maybe just to give it a test-run) and talking publicly about it. That would never happen because of the expected PR backlash.

    Linus, on the other hand can be as frank as he wants to, without an axe hanging over his head.

    Interesting, though nothing earth-shattering. Open-source also supports Freedom.

    --
    An Indian-American Hindu committed to non-violent thought/speech/action alarmed by the global explosion of radical Islam
  19. Re:No offense, by pyros · · Score: 3, Insightful
    Doesn't Linus work on the kernel? How is his input vital for desktops which are KDE/GNOME dominated now, projects he is not involved with...


    Don't underestimate the importance of a good kernel for the desktop. You need good multitasking support (low-latency context switching, an efficient scheduler, a good VM system) for the GUI environment to be responsive and zippy. You need a good infrastructure and API for device drivers to get the most out of your peripherals. People hate buying a fancy video card only to find that half the I/O ports aren't supported.

  20. Re:I think 2004 is make or break by twocents · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Why would any year for Linux be make or break? That makes no sense at all when one considers the strides that have been made in just the last few years.

    I personally think Linux is popular because of X,OpenOffice,Gimp,Apache,TuxRacer, etc etc, and ETC and there is nothing but more software coming out for the OS. I cannot imagine everyone throwing in the towel after 2004 if Linux doesn't take over the desktop: "Oh hell, forget it, this was to be THE year, but wasn't so let's shut the doors."

    Also, a lot of people are already using Linux as a desktop and feel the "make" much more than the "break" already. If mass appeal picks up, great, but considering the effort that goes into the OS and the software that runs on Linux, to simplify one year as THE defining year for an operating system misses the point.

  21. Linux isn't user friendly. by 1iar_parad0x · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I'm a programmer, and I don't mind having to google/read a book/scour the newsgroups to find out how to install XYZ software. However, the average user wants to just point and click. They like having Microsoft/Apple update their software for them. Look how popular Norton is. I just don't see how the open source movement will ever be motivated to work on usability issues related to Linux.

    Think about this. How many times have you heard the terms "usability" and "open source" in the same sentence. Now how many times have you heard these same terms without the word "NOT". Have you ever heard of "yet another user interface"? No, instead we have software with names like yacc, Bison, and ANTLR (all of these programs are used in compiler design).

    Look, I like Linux too, but as a server. It's just not ready for the desktop.

    --
    What do you mean my sig is repetitive? What do you mean my sig is repetitive? What do you mean....
  22. The Two Fronts to Desktop Adoption by Schlemphfer · · Score: 5, Interesting
    I've been reading Slashdot for years, but have only started playing around with Linux in the past month. It's great to hear Linus say that the desktop is almost ready for prime time. But I think no matter how good the desktop experience is, quality alone won't win over users.

    What finally got me to try Linux is when I read a post on Slashdot about Mepis, which, like Knoppix, is a Linux distribution on a bootable CD. While I'd been aching to give Linux a try for years, I never had a spare box to run it, and I wasn't about to wipe XP and all my stuff off my main computer. If you haven't heard about it, Mepis is a full linux install and suite of software that you can boot off a CD and play with, without wiping your existing operating system from your hard drive.

    After trying Mepis for just a couple hours, I fell in love. Everything from my optical mouse to my Nvidia drivers to my keychain drive worked without any installation. I'm going to go on using XP on my current box, but I now know that the Linux desktop is indeed ready for prime time. When I upgrade to a new system next year, Microsoft won't get a penny. I'm going to buy a whitebox system, and get myself a good Linux distribution.

    I don't care how polished Linux gets; I think the only way it's ever going to get exposure to general users is on Mepis/Knoppix style CD ROMs that let people take the OS for a test drive. I really think that the best way to bring Linux to the general public is to distribute as many ten-cent CD ROMs as you can to friends and family, so they can see for themselves that there's no need to pay the Microsoft tax on their next PC purchase.

    The way I see it, overcoming Microsoft's hegemony requires working on two fronts. The first is building quality distributions that work plug-and-play with everything from printers to wireless cards. And the second front is the creation of full-featured bootable CD's that let people see -- on their own machine -- how great Linux has become.

    --
    I'm generally "Interesting," "Insightful," and even "Funny" here. What the hell happens to me at parties?
  23. Again? by Tom7 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Not that I'm complaining, but wasn't 2003 supposed to be the year of desktop linux?

  24. Re:Interesting that Linus's laptop runs Windows to by TrollBridge · · Score: 3, Insightful
    "Linus, on the other hand can be as frank as he wants to, without an axe hanging over his head.

    Interesting, though nothing earth-shattering. Open-source also supports Freedom."

    Hardly.

    I'd venture it's because the Slashdot community holds their villians to a higher standard than their heroes.

    --
    There's a Mercedes gap too. I want one and can't afford one, but it's not government's job to do anything about it.
  25. Re:No offense, by enjo13 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    He's more than a kernel hacker, he's an open source leader. Part of his role in the community is to set direction, identify problem areas, and do all of those other things that leaders do.

    By Linus coming out and focusing on the desktop (even if just in words) he's effectively pointing the collective effort of the open source community more and more to that end.

    --
    Turn s60 photos into awesome videos with mScrapbook for all S60 3rd edition phones!
  26. Whoa there! by hobuddy · · Score: 5, Funny

    I think you mean GNU/Christ, brother.

    --
    Erlang.org: wow
  27. '04 is not the Year of the Desktop for Joe Sixpack by theantix · · Score: 3, Insightful

    ... because many important peripherals do not work by default. For example, getting 802.11x is still a pita in linux unless you plan ahead by making certain that your hardware works with it. And most people won't care about saving a few hundred bucks if they can't get a scanner or camera or mp3 player or PDA or $whatever to interface with their PC. I could not pretend that an average user should use Linux at this point, unless they are interesting in having PC maintenance as a new hobby.

    This is not a problem with the linux kernel, but instead a typical problem of market share in a marketplace dominated by a player with a high degree of monopoly power. Put more simply, the problem is not that Linux sucks, it just needs to have larger market share before hardware manufacturers pay attention and bother with the hassle of trying to deal with Linux (multiple distros, multiple DEs, etc).

    However, 2004 will probably be the year where corporations start to move some of their enterprise desktops to Linux. With Novell and Sun both pushing Linux/GNOME solutions, and the less varied peripheral requirements of Linux in the corporate environment... things seem to be pointing in that direction. I would predict that "Year of the Desktop" makes more sense for 2005, when Linux will be building market share thanks to the corps, and hardware manufacturers start to pay more attention to getting things to work.

    Though, for knowledgeable people who are willing to go through the hassle of getting devices to work with Linux, the Year of the Desktop was really 2003... at least for me it was. DVD, ALSA, OOo, MozillaFirebird.... these things help make the Linux desktop possible and they are here long before 2004 started.

    --
    501 Not Implemented
  28. Re:No offense, by Unknown+Lamer · · Score: 4, Interesting

    This is what XPDE is trying to do (clone the Windows XP interface). Except for the applications part...it provides a shell that looks like the Windows XP one along with a control panel and some other stuff (at least I seem to remember it having that stuff).

    Personally, you can pry Window Maker out of my cold dead fingers...but I've been using GNU/Linux on the desktop full time for nearly four years. All the software I use works fine on GNU/Linux so I have no need for Windows. I just need a few games (Frozen-Bubble, LBreakout2, Legacy Doom, Quake2), Emacs, a web browser, and a simple DAW for my occasional audio work (Ardour is awesome for this). I'm not a "desktop user" I guess.

    --

    HAL 7000, fewer features than the HAL 9000, but just as homicidal!
  29. What about Munich by YU+Nicks+NE+Way · · Score: 5, Interesting

    According to The Register, Munich is finding that trying to get Linux on the city's desktop is not yet possible -- even with direct help from IBM and SuSE. They're finding that what Microsoft has said about Word is true in general: it isn't just the big things that everybody uses which are a problem, but also the little things which a very small number of people can't do without. In that case of Word, it turns out that almost everybody has a few small, exotic features that they really need, and that those small features, taken together, add up to a much greater barrier than all the big features which everybody needs.

    This isn't going to be the year of Linux on the desktop if that holds true generally.

  30. its not neccessarily about the product by mydigitalself · · Score: 4, Interesting

    ok, so maybe linux itself is nearing readyness to take on windows. gnome/kde have come a long way as have the kernel and indeed linux PR in general.

    however, i still do not feel that 2004 is "year of the linux desktop" because the market will not be ready for it. i will come back to my regular example - my mother. not only is she an occasional home user, but my mother runs a business of about 40 people strong who do medical aid claims processing. like many companies her size, she runs:
    * Windows on Desktop
    * Windows on Server
    * Office on Desktop
    * Exchange on Server
    * ACCESS APPLICATION THAT WAS WRITTEN FOR HER

    ok. so the first 3 you can pretty much wipe out with linux. the exchange thing, i still believe is a problem. i have been babblin on about good groupware capabilities in Linux for years and quite frankly i'm still shocked at the lack of a good alternative to exchange. although i am impressed by ximian's exchange connector - how ironic is running MS Exchange for your server and Linux on the desktop...

    anyway. lets get back to the BIG PROBLEM - her access database package. in fact, when i go to my dentist - they've got some custom built access application. as does my physio. as do many small sized businesses.

    the thing that will make it the year for the linux desktop will be a big "SWITCH"-like campaign. although all the pieces of the puzzle (ximian, 2.6 kernel, KDE, GNOME, CrossOver etc...) are available - they still need to be assembled to create the correct picture - and this will continue to take time. but i feel that a big assistant to this could come from some clever people like VMWare or Citrix. "ok, so you have this, this and that running on Windows - and there is no Linux version. ok, lets just run them in a thin-client/emulator". that will need a lot more knowledge from the small outsourced IT company my mother currently uses, and a bit more technical innovation. the long and the short: still more time.

  31. Re:No offense, by pyros · · Score: 5, Insightful
    If you could build a Linux system that a KDE or Gnome theme that made the system seem exactly like XP, coupled with applications that behaved exactly like the ones people are used to, you'd have a winner.

    You know, I hear that argument quite a bit. But Windows 9x -> XP had a learning curve. Mac OS 9 -> Mac OS X had a learning curve. The same goes for applications. Every now and then the interface changes, and users learn how to use it. With OS, the vast majority just go with what's already installed when they buy it. Once Gnome and KDE are deemed useable enough to ship pre-installed on consumer PC lines by the likes of Dell, Sony, and HP, people will buy them as long as they can access all their files. They don't need to know that every widget will look the same. When people buy a new replacement computer, they say "Will I be able to view all my photos and listen to all my songs? Will I be able to access all my favorite web sites? Will I be able access my documents and spreadsheets?" If applications have full file compatibility, and the system mime types are set correctly, they won't care. They'll see right away that it's a little different, and they'll take the time to learn it, as long as the files open and the data is still correct.

  32. Re:LINUS COULD CLAIM TO BE JESUS CHRIST by adrianbaugh · · Score: 3, Insightful

    You don't remember the enormous amount of bitching that went on when he told the kernel list to use BitKeeper, do you?

    --
    "'I pass the test,' she said. 'I will diminish, and go into the West, and remain Galadriel.'"
    - JRR Tolkien.
  33. 2004? Doubtful. by zgwortz962 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    While I think Linux's desktop is mostly ready for prime time (both KDE and Gnome could still use a lot of polish, though...), it's driver architecture is not. 2.6 is still suffering from a lot of old and poor architectural choices, making it difficult to develop drivers for new hardware quickly. I saw some discussion of changes which could go into 2.7/2.8 which might make it easier to correct this. But until the driver architecture is fixed, you're going to have installation problems on newer machines. And until you have really smooth installation on newer machines, people aren't going to adopt Linux on the desktop. It has to be trivial to install or it won't fly.

  34. With all due respect to Linus, by i)ave · · Score: 3, Insightful
    the year of the linux-desktop is not going to happen until Linux creates some standards and conformity among distros. I know, I know, "the beauty of linux is its ability to be any flavor you want". Well, I don't agree. KDE, GNOME should merge, having 2 competing desktop environments is not productive. There are WAY TOO MANY DISTROS. Confuses the hell out of newbies. The mainstream demands conformity and wants 1 desktop and 1 distro to be dominant. Hardware detection needs to get a lot better, too. Someone on here mentioned that the linux office suites are as good or better than those of Windows... That's complete hogwash, not even close. The latest OOo is much better than before, but still a 2nd tier solution to MS office. Staroffice is still 2nd tier, too.

    I'm amazed that someone pointed out that Linus uses a laptop that has Windows on it, as well as linux, and used that as an example of what an honest guy Linus is (because he was willing to tell everyone, since presumeably, Gates would never be that honest if his laptop had linux). The fact that Linus has Windows loaded on his laptop along with Linux is a blatant example of the fact that LINUX IS NOT COMPLETELY READY FOR MAINSTREAM. Maybe, Linus should be using his laptop without Windows before he declares 2004 the "year of the linux desktop".

    Okay, now everyone go ahead and flame away, I've set myself up here I suppose, but just keep in mind I'm very much PRO-LINUX. I want nothing more than 2004 to be the year of the linux-desktop... I'm just a realist and there are a lot of people in the Linux community who are realists, too, who understand that linux is headed in too many different directions to be mainstream. Organize, combine, simplify: 1 distro, 1 desktop, solid hardware detection, simple upgrades.

    --
    -- I'd give my right arm to be ambidextrous
    1. Re:With all due respect to Linus, by CaptainTux · · Score: 3, Interesting
      The fact that Linus has Windows loaded on his laptop along with Linux is a blatant example of the fact that LINUX IS NOT COMPLETELY READY FOR MAINSTREAM. Maybe, Linus should be using his laptop without Windows before he declares 2004 the "year of the linux desktop".

      I think that, as an OS, Linux is completely ready for the desktop and even has enough consumer ready applications to satisfy the average desktop user who does things like email, surf the web, a few file transfers, etc. But the main problems with Linux have less to do with the availability of application than it does to do with the availablillity of specific commercial applications on the platform. Users don't like having to learn new things. Making the jump from Windows to Linux is a big change in their lives then they are told "Oh, by the way: few of the applications you've used for the past 15 years will be available to you on Linux. You'll have to learn the alternatives". In many cases, those alternatives are just as good or nearly as good as their Windows counterparts. But it's still having to learn something new.

      I don't think we're going to really see the "year of desktop Linux" until 1) More Windows-centric vendors begin releasing Linux versions of their software so the transition is eased, 2) There is more parity between Linux distro's, or 3) Open Source developers stop the "I'm developing to scratch my own itch" type of thinking and start thinking about enhancing the community as a whole and writing software because it needs to be written even if they don't have a stake in it. Then, I believe we will start to see widespread adoption of Linux at the consumer level. But it's going to take a little while. We own the server. We're reaching the desktop.

      Looking for a great open source license that is business friendly? Check out the Consumer Public Access License at www.safferconsulting.com/capl.htm

      --
      Anthony Papillion
      Advanced Data Concepts, Inc.
      "Quality Custom Software and IT Services"
  35. Desktop Linux by Brian+Blessed · · Score: 4, Informative

    I find it surprising that more businesses aren't aware of the benefits of switching to Linux desktops that are X thin clients. I use an LTSP-style setup at home and it really works well. There aren't low-cost clients available in the shops though, so I have to make my own using VIA mini-ITX kit for about 150ukp (~$250).
    With the commoditisation of gigabit networking and 64-bit machines (i.e. Opteron), it must be fairly easy for one server to support more than 40 desktops.

    - Brain.

  36. This is why by haggar · · Score: 4, Interesting

    First of all, winters aren't insanely cold. For example, this winter in Helsinki we only had 3 days at -15 degrees C so far, the rest has been between 0 and -6.

    But the reason to live here are many: excellent education, health and public transport and beautiful living conditions: the whole city is embedded in parks. We actually don't have something you can call parks, the buildings and streets are actually connected together with large green areas. Basically, you can go anywhere through parks and woods.

    Finns like to live close to nature, and somehow, wild animals feel comfortable in the presence of people. So it's easy to meet, even here, in the capital area, with squirrels, wild rabbits, pheasants, and sometimes even bears and wolfs (a bit more to the north, but still metropolitan area). I find this wonderful!

    And then, there's the mentailty of the people, which I like so very much: Finnland have extremely low crime rate, and Finns in general don't lie (in any case, much less than any other nation I have seen, and I've traveled a lot), which makes life very simple. As a consequence, the administrative overhead to do anything, is very low. You can do most things by way of internet or just telephone.

    So, it might not be your cup of tea, but for me it's paradise.

    --
    Sigged!
  37. Re:LINUS COULD CLAIM TO BE JESUS CHRIST by budgenator · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Linus is the maintainer of the experimental Linux kernal, he realy doesn't care about
    1. package managers,
    2. Window managers,

    He seems to like Xwindows, but he isn't saying we have to use it.
    He wants to let us all fight among ourselves concerning standards and now Linux is the most fragmented OS in existence.
    Well he does try to keep the fight fair which lends itself to the survival of the fittest and ultimately the best overall system.

    --
    Apocalypse Cancelled, Sorry, No Ticket Refunds
  38. Re:MERGE! by BenjyD · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Please Please Please! Will people shut up about merging GNOME and KDE. It's won't happen, can't happen, shouldn't happen. IT'S NEVER GOING TO HAPPEN.

    You want reasons? OK.

    - One is C, the other C++. Many programmers of each project would find it difficult to switch over. I write C++ almost exclusively - switching to pure C is a wrench for me and I don't enjoy it so much. I can't imagine what a complex C++ class hierachy like KDE would look like after a bunch of C programmers 'maintained' it.
    - Doubling the number of programmers even on a commercial project where everyone is paid to work doesn't double output. On projects where most of the work is on a volunteer basis, so people have to *really want* to work, the ratio would be even worse. Factor in the arguments caused by all those developers with different ideas, and you could end up actually lowering productivity.
    - You can't tell volunteer developers what to do. If you shut down GNOME and said "now work on KDE", I guarantee that most of the GNOME developers would start up their own DWARF project within a week.
    - Choice is GOOD. I don't like GNOME. Others don't like KDE. Who is right? Neither of us - it's a personal judgement.

    What is a good thing is the increasing agreement on standard protocols for exchange between the two. "Desktop Linux" is not a product produced by development teams. They just make the components - distro makers take the projects and make an integrated desktop from them.

  39. Re:Yet another... by pantherace · · Score: 4, Funny
    Recalling a comment on this, which is quoted loosely, and I can't remember the source:

    "Every year we had been hearing that this year was to be the year of the LAN. Allsorts of hype, and eventually it died down, and when it did, LANs were everywhere."

    I highly suspect that it is going to be like this for linux :)

  40. Re:Yet another... by Geek+of+Tech · · Score: 3, Insightful
    Well, compared to the previous year, every year has been "the year" for Linux.

    --
    Stop the Slashdot effect! Don't read the articles!
  41. Re:'04 is not the Year of the Desktop for Joe Sixp by invoke · · Score: 3, Interesting
    ... because many important peripherals do not work by default. For example, getting 802.11x is still a pita in linux unless you plan ahead by making certain that your hardware works with it.

    Amazingly enough, on my Dell Latitude C610, I have given up - after hours of effort - on ever getting my built-in Orinoco wireless to work under Win XP or Win 2K. It is a dual boot system, and in Linux it was a piece of cake, but even with Dell support files, flashing the bios, everything I could throw at it, it just doesn't work. Of course, it is an end-of-life item, so no support from the actual manufacturer.

    While troubleshooting before installing Linux on the laptop, I noted that Knoppix auto-configured the wireless properly. So, I knew it worked, which led to the endless fruitless attempts to get it functioning in Windows.

    Even more interesting to me was that when I was searching for tips on getting it working under Windows, I found 10 helpful Linux links to every 1 helpful Windows link. That's the kind of support that Windows can only dream of, and it believe it shows the strong future of Linux and of free software in general.
  42. Re:Yet another... by zurab · · Score: 5, Insightful
    This is yet another article on "the state of Linux on the desktop," and yet again, we're told this year will be "the year."

    I've been hear that since at least 1998, every year.


    That may be as far as /., but it's not true for Linus. In fact, when he started working on 2.4, Linus said it would be geared mostly towards server-based systems and functionality.

    When 2.4 was stable and he started working on 2.6, Linus said he wanted to put in more features for desktop. Now, I don't know if you noticed, but Linux on servers has been working out pretty well during that time period. Now, it's desktop's turn (according to Linus) and we'll see what happens; even Linus admits that it's harder on the desktop:

    The server space is easier to tackle first with any operating system as it can be applied to specific tasks such as mail serving; however, the desktop is harder to sell.
  43. Re:Time to give up on the Command Line by Atzanteol · · Score: 3, Insightful

    "Unix on the other hand, demands that its users master a highly symbolic computing environment based primarily on the motif of arbitrary symbols linearly placed on a command line."

    That must be why 'books' never took off. They're just too damn difficult to use! Who wants to spend all that time learning 'grammars' and 'spelling' with arbitrary symbols linearly placed on a page.

    I know IHBT, but I'm responding anyway. I believe that the best reason for *both* the CLI and GUI to exist is that they represent the difference between the 'language' and 'visual' parts of the brain (respectively).

    With the CLI you are 'telling' the computer what to do. As I would tell you where to go and how to get there. Very effective for many tasks.

    With a GUI you are presented with options, and you 'point and click' at them. I show you a map in the real world, and ask you to point at where you want to go.

    Some people want to 'drag' a file from one folder to another (these people probably point to objects in a store and grunt to get them). Others would rather 'explain' to the computer what files to move, where, and how.

    *nix/*BSD have a nice mixture of both. The CLI was first, but the GUI's are catching up. It would be 'wrong' to forsake one for the other. Even Apple kept the *nix command line for Mac OSX!

    --
    "Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge"

    - Charles Darwin
  44. Re:Yet another... by Gherald · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Yes but remember back in the day when he first started working on the Linux network code, he bumped the kernel version up to .90 thinking he was almost done. And then there were like 200 kernel releases between Linux .9 and 1.0?

    My point is that he's been wrong before, and he could be wrong now. He's not as omniscient as some OSS jocks try to make him out to be.

    I do not consider Linus an expert on desktop systems. He is first and foremost a kernel hacker.

    Now, don't get me wrong, I am very pleased with my kernel 2.6/Gentoo/Gnome desktop. But I do not think it is ready for prime time. Much work remains to be done to simplify configuration and installation, both for the distros themselves, adding applications, and new hardware.

    --
    The unofficial /. digest
  45. Re:Time to give up on the Command Line by gaijin99 · · Score: 3, Insightful
    The Linux/Unix community needs to discard the entire command line mentality and start paying serious attention to ease-of-use and interface issues before ordinary people will take seriously their claim that they and their computer environment is somehow actually better than Windows.
    Um. No, I think you're completely wrong here. While it is definately true that Linux needs better GUI tools (Mandrake has a very nice, but not yet finished set, as does Redhat) the idea of giving up the command line is preposterous.

    I certainly expect to see the day (maybe this year) when the average Linux user never sees a CLI, or even knows what one is. BUT, the CLI will remain an essential and critical part of Linux (and all Unixes) forever due to its inherent utility and power. In Windows the config files are hard to find, written in a format that is only machine readable, and if the GUI doesn't have an option for doing what you want, you're screwed. Compare to Linux where the config files are easy to find, human readable, and if the GUI doesn't have an option for doing what you want it isn't really much of a hassle. We need better GUIs, yes, absolutely. Joe User needs to be able to do pretty much everything from a GUI. But the CLI is indespensable to those who need to do real work, and will not dissapear.

    --
    "Mission Accomplished" -- George W. Bush May 1, 2003
  46. Re:Time to give up on the Command Line by bninja_penguin · · Score: 3, Informative

    Linux/Unix will start to make strides on the desktop when its users begin to realize how seriously far behind Microsoft they are in the areas that computers are actually used for and where they deliver the most productivity gains.
    The only place I see Linux being "behind" Microsoft is in games and Autocad. Programming in Linux (using KDevelop) is faster, more intuitive, less confusing, and better laid out than in Visual Studio. KDE and Gnome are both so similar to Windows in their actions and the way they present themselves, that the only thing I can see end-users running into problems would be when they get "Start" and "K" confused.

    However in reality the Windows GUI analogue interface is more powerful because it is easier to learn and therefore easier to manipulate.
    I thinnk what you mean here is you've never seen KDE or Gnome. Dragging an icon around the desktop is the same in KDE, Gnome, or Windows, so learning how to do that is even. When you talk about easier to manipulate, you must mean easier to install WebShots, as changing background images or colors are just as easy to change, and for Damn sure that's about all you can manipulate on Windows, without resorting to "advanced" techniques, which the common enduser would find just as difficult to run on Windows as KDE. If you are talking about true manipulation, hands down any desktop environment for Linux is easier to manipulate than Windows GUI, as you have ready access and permission to modify the source code. Try true manipulation on Windows, and see how far you get.

    The Linux/Unix community needs to discard the entire command line mentality and start paying serious attention to ease-of-use and interface issues before ordinary people will take seriously their claim that they and their computer environment is somehow actually better than Windows.
    Okay, let's take one example, USB thumb drives. The following occurs with a default out of the box install of the OS. I use Mandrake Linux 9.1 and 9.2. I plug a USB drive into a USB port. An Icon appears on my desktop(KDE). I double click the icon, and a window opens, showing me the contents of the USB drive, which I can then do whatever with.
    Now, let's take the same USB drive, and plug it into the USB port of a Windows XP system. After a bit, down by the clock, a pop-up window claims new hardware found, and then proceeds to tell you what it is, if it found drivers for it, and that it's ready to use. The pop-up windows then disappears. To access the drive, you must then click on the "Start" button, move the mouse up to the "My Computer" Icon, single-click, then a window appears showing you the contents of "My Computer". You then move the mouse down, below the listed hard drives, below the listed CDROM drives, and finally come to a section where it lists "Removeable Disk" F:, or whatever letter it got assigned. Now you can finally double-click(Why are there someplaces you must single-click, and other places you must double-click? Remember, these are default installs) that Icon, which then shows you the contents of the USB drive.
    Tell me please, how the Windows way has better "ease-of-use", and what kind of "interface issue" it is to automatically, on the desktop, provide a single step solution to getting to my USB drive, rather than clicking all over the god-damned place, "drilling down" through several menus, to get to the same information?

    Obviously, with my "command-line mentality" I must have missed where all the work to get to the USB drive on Windows is actually easy and intuitive.

    What definition of "illusion" and "powerful" are you using? You say, "When Linux/Unix users complete the process of changing their entire approach to computing to fit this 1970's era approach, they find that they can do many things with command line manipulation that can't be done easily or at all with Window's GUI interface."
    Which you then claim, "This gives them the illusion that their OS is m

    --
    For those who describe their systems as 'boxen', do you order multiple 'boxen' of corn flakes also?