Linus Says 2004 is the Year for Desktop Linux

lca writes "Linuxworld Australia has an interview with Linus Torvalds about the current state of the Linux desktop and where it will go this year among other things. Also discussed are topics such as hardware support, the SCO issue, and whether or not he will be moving to Australia."

Comments

They missed one.

[grub]

They didn't ask Linus if he paid his $699 licensing fee to SCO. It'd be a shame for him to have to stop working on their OS..

Australia?

[probbka]

Why would any computer-savvy person want to move to Australia? They've got some of the toughest Internet censorship laws in the free world, IIRC...

Re:Australia?

[epiphani]

Not only that, but the bandwidth is super expensive, and broadband is not exactly overly availible.

But what im curious about is why he says "I definitely won't be moving back to Finland though." Whats wrong with Finland?

Re:Australia?

[somethinghollow]

I'm under the impression that Linus can afford a decent connection. Not to mention Austrailia's dollar is worth less than the US dollar.

Austrailia is a nice country with alot of nice people. I just got back a few weeks ago from there. I hope to go back sooner than later.

The only thing I would change is the flies. That is, I wish they would have not been so bothersome.

Re:Australia?

[kaisyain]

Even computer-savvy people have other (and possibly higher) priorities in life than Internet censorship laws. Why is that so hard to understand?

Re:Australia?

[RabidStoat]

5) toilets flush in opposite direction.

Must get damn expensive in cleaning products. I mean you gotta wonder why someone bright spark hasn't thought about making the stuff go down when you flush.

Re:Australia?

[arloguthrie]

There's nothing wrong with Finland, except that it's so far from Japan, quite a long way from Cairo, and lots of miles from Vietnam.

Re:Australia?

[Ba3r]

Its -30 (wind chill) here in upstate New York today (Northeast USA), don't need to go to Finland for that! (And we are on about the same latitude as Rome!).

Re:Australia?

[iota]

"Why would any computer-savvy person want to move to Australia? They've got some of the toughest Internet censorship laws in the free world, IIRC..."

Maybe he likes the people...
Or the countryside...
Or the beaches...
Or perhaps he's found a great school for his daughter...
Or maybe his wife fell in love with a house there...
Or maybe he's concerned with the political unrest in The States...

Who knows? But I'll bet he's got reasons a lot more important than the state of his internet access.

Re:Australia?

[Fulkkari]

Whats wrong with Finland?

I don't know about Linus, but it is damn dark and cold here. The days are in the middle of December only a couple of hours long, and you see the sun only a couple of times a month. It is something like the darkness you see in LOTR. No wonder Tolkien was interested in Finland. :-P

PS. The bandwidth is pretty expensive here too.

Re:Australia?

[Gordonjcp]

Hmmm, over here in the North of Scotland, it never really gets light in the Winter at 55 degrees North (when will the fucking Slashdot janitors let us use HTML entities? Morons), but in the summer it never really gets dark...

Re:Australia?

[G-funk]

Coz it's flamin tops! Crikey! What kind of galah would you have to be to want to move to Ostraya? It's bonza. Sure we're a bit spread out, but you can always get on the al capone when you need to have your weekly earbashing from the rellos. Besides, over in yankie-town you can't get a pavlova, a lamington, or even a nice dead dog's eye with a bit of dead horse! Strewth - how can you trust a nation of people who can't stomach vegemite, and think beer should taste like bud light? You can play the pokies down the local, bet on the fairy league without going to gaol, it's the bestest place on earth - fair dinkum!

LINUS COULD CLAIM TO BE JESUS CHRIST

[Anonymous Coward]

...and all the Linux geeks in the world would follow and worship him like deciples.

Can you say "Bill Gates as Pontious Pilate"?

"Look, I'm Linus Christ. I can serve 5000 webpages using 5 analog phone lines and 3 Amigas!"

Yes, I'm making vauge references comparing the Son of God to the Open Source movement. I'm bored and my mind is wandering.

akedia

Re:LINUS COULD CLAIM TO BE JESUS CHRIST

[Anonymous Coward]

1) Betray Linus
2) PROFIT!!!!
3) ?????

Re:LINUS COULD CLAIM TO BE JESUS CHRIST

[adrianbaugh]

You don't remember the enormous amount of bitching that went on when he told the kernel list to use BitKeeper, do you?

Re:LINUS COULD CLAIM TO BE JESUS CHRIST

[inode_buddha]

I think that's what he was hinting at in TFA. Generally speaking he notes that things are "consolidating". I just thought it was interesting how he considers "...some confusion and rivalry that has helped its development." to be helpful.
At least he has the patience to let the community work out standards for itself; I sure don't want to be told what to think.

Re:LINUS COULD CLAIM TO BE JESUS CHRIST

[budgenator]

Linus is the maintainer of the experimental Linux kernal, he realy doesn't care about
1. package managers,
2. Window managers,

He seems to like Xwindows, but he isn't saying we have to use it.
He wants to let us all fight among ourselves concerning standards and now Linux is the most fragmented OS in existence.
Well he does try to keep the fight fair which lends itself to the survival of the fittest and ultimately the best overall system.

people say a lot of stuff

[El_Muerte_TDS]

640kb is more than we'll ever need

Re:people say a lot of stuff

[micromoog]

Iraq has weapons of mass destruction

Re:people say a lot of stuff

[Anonymous Coward]

I've got weapons of math instruction!

At New York's Kennedy airport today, an individual later
discovered to be a public school teacher was arrested trying
to board a flight while in possession of a ruler, a
protractor, a setsquare, a slide rule, and a calculator.

At a morning press conference, Attorney general John Ashcroft
said he believes the man is a member of the notorious
al-gebra movement. He is being charged by the FBI with
carrying weapons of math instruction.

"Al-gebra is a fearsome cult,", Ashcroft said. "They desire
average solutions by means and extremes, and sometimes go off
on tangents in a search of absolute value. They use secret
code names like "x" and "y" and refer to themselves as
"unknowns", but we have determined they belong to a common
denominator of the axis of medieval with coordinates in every country.

"As the Greek philanderer Isosceles used to say, there are 3
sides to every triangle," Ashcroft declared.

When asked to comment on the arrest, President Bush said, "If
God had wanted us to have better weapons of math instruction,
He would have given us more fingers and toes.

"I am gratified that our government has given us a sine that
it is intent on protracting us from these math-dogs who are
willing to disintegrate us with calculus disregard. Murky
statisticians love to inflict plane on every sphere of
influence," the President said, adding: "Under the
circumferences, we must differentiate their root, make our
point, and draw the line."

President Bush warned, "These weapons of math instruction
have the potential to decimal everything in their math on a
scalene never before seen unless we become exponents of a
Higher Power and begin to factor-in random facts of vertex."

Attorney General Ashcroft said, "As our Great Leader would
say, read my ellipse. Here is one principle he is uncertainty
of: though they continue to multiply, their days are numbered
as the hypotenuse tightens around their necks."

Re:people say a lot of stuff

[kisak]

I am a uniter, not a divider

Re:people say a lot of stuff

[Savatte]

hmm..a url with a .cx domain. how bad could it be?

Re:people say a lot of stuff

[dingbatdr]

A pringle is pretty close to being a saddle point.

Re:people say a lot of stuff

[happyfrogcow]

Slashdot... Stuff that Matters ;)

(kidding!)

Re:people say a lot of stuff

[TimoP]

Windows is about choice.

Re:people say a lot of stuff

[wolrahnaes]

Damn You!

Now there's Pepsi all over my laptop and TV!

Patience little one -- patience!

[drizst 'n drat]

"The server space is easier to tackle first with any operating system as it can be applied to specific tasks such as mail serving; however, the desktop is harder to sell." This may be true but it sure isn't impossible. It will just take some time. Can't run until you can first crawl.

Re:Patience little one -- patience!

[tentimestwenty]

Being a Mac user, I've learned to take these kind of prognostications with a grain of salt over the years. Linux has a good foundation and it's nearly free but that's no where near enough to win the hearts and minds of the average computer user. Obviously it has to do what they need, with the minimum amount of hassle and the maximum amount of pleasure. Linux has too many loose ends, too much variability, and a really substandard user interface at this point. It's going to have to be at least as polished as Windows and probably closer to OS X level before it really starts swaying people. I'm eager to use Linux and I check out all the distributions when they have notable releases, but nothing has shown me a reason to switch, not even for a bare bones e-mail/web machine.

Re:Patience little one -- patience!

[Tukla]

the average user should *not* have to select between filesystems;

He'd better not install XP, then, as that's the first thing it asks you.

Re:Patience little one -- patience!

[nathanh]

Being a Mac user, I've learned to take these kind of prognostications with a grain of salt over the years. Linux has a good foundation and it's nearly free but that's no where near enough to win the hearts and minds of the average computer user. Obviously it has to do what they need, with the minimum amount of hassle and the maximum amount of pleasure. Linux has too many loose ends, too much variability, and a really substandard user interface at this point. It's going to have to be at least as polished as Windows and probably closer to OS X level before it really starts swaying people. I'm eager to use Linux and I check out all the distributions when they have notable releases, but nothing has shown me a reason to switch, not even for a bare bones e-mail/web machine.

I've been a Linux user for the past 12 years and it has been my primary desktop for most of those (as in, no dual-boot, just Linux). I've lived through TWM and FVWM. I've hand-editted Modelines with the aide of a calculator. I've suffered through the growing pains of Linux on the desktop. I say all this to show that I know that the Linux desktop has big hairy warts.

Recently I bought an Apple iBook G4 and it came with all the latest MacOSX software. I toyed with MacOSX for about an hour before reformatting and installing Linux. I honestly prefer Linux as my desktop. It does exactly what I want with no fuss or effort. I haven't needed to edit a config file in more than two years. XFree86 doesn't even need Modelines anymore; they're all autodiscovered with DDC and EDID. Even traditional UNIX applications are configured with debconf; I just click on the little GUI buttons that appear after selecting my package updates in the GUI software manager. The Linux desktop has all the applications I want (ie, email, browser, word processor). All the features I want (ie, MP3, DVD). And all the games I want (ie, chess). It's a perfect setup for me.

Does the Linux desktop still have warts? Sure, but from my experiences at work, so does Windows. And I've owned various Macintoshes including more than one PowerPC model, so I know MacOS has warts too (at least Classic did, I don't know a lot about MacOSX)! I think Linux as a desktop is great. It's my preference. I don't care if you don't use it; your usage or non-usage of Linux doesn't affect me either way. But I think you're mistaken if you think there's no compelling reason to use Linux on the desktop. The fact that many of us do use Linux on the desktop should be your first hint that it offers something, even if you can't see what that something is.

Re:Patience little one -- patience!

[nathanh]

I'm not saying it doesn't offer anything or that no one is using it now, just that in the grand scheme of things, Linux is not a quality desktop product. Heck, Windows is completely horrible too and OS X has some major flaws, but they both have things pretty sorted out in terms of their direction. My point mostly is that Linux has to get a UI plan which doesn't just address "good enough" but actually tries to take the whole computing experience forward.

I really do disagree and for one very simple reason: Windows 3.0. It was a horrible interface. It was kludgy and undirected. Applications all looked different. Cut and paste did not work properly. You had to edit CONFIG.SYS and AUTOEXEC.BAT from the command line. It had memory leaks and was unstable. Drivers were a nightmare, especially for networking.

But it won. It beat out the obviously better alternatives. The majority of users didn't really care about unified interfaces or simplicity. They're only interested in "good enough" and "costs less". And part of the "costs less" component was the hardware that it ran on.

The entire American culture demonstrates that I'm right. McDonalds is more popular than decent restaurants. StarBucks is more popular than decent cafes. Walmart is more popular than speciality stores. People are happy with good enough if it costs less. They very fact that people buy Palsonic is enough proof for me.

I think you're right that Linux isn't as cohesive, unified, directed, etc as alternatives like Windows and MacOSX. I just don't agree with you that it matters. People will buy the cheapest option and that cheapest option is Linux[1]. It just needs to be good enough and then it wins.

[1] And they won't consider TCO. If they did then they would never have lumbered themselves with Windows in the first place. Upfront cost is the only cost that people really care about.

Comment removed

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

I would have to agree.

[MoOsEb0y]

With the advent of the 2.6 series kernel, along with the efforts for compatability between KDE and GNOME, I think linux is getting very close for the desktop. I already use it as a desktop OS on my laptop with few problems. With a little bit more effort, even so -called "dummies" will be able to work with it as well.

Re:I would have to agree.

[aheath]

"With a little bit more effort, even so -called "dummies" will be able to work with it as well."

The so called 'dummies" really don't care much about the operating system that they are using. They care much more about the applications that they are running. They also care about the availability of training and support for the operating system and applications.

The computer using world can be reoughly divided into two categories:

(1) People who want to think about the work their doing, but don't want to think about the computer technology they are using.

(2) People who want to think about the work they are doing and who like to think about how the computer is doing the work.

The first group wants reliability, stability, and transparency. They d not want to spend a lot of time fixing or upgrading their computer. They do not want to spend a lot of time working on a computer that crashes. They do not want to spend a lot of time thinking about how to do their work. Their main interest is in what works, not necessarily what works best.

They won't switch to Linux from something that is good enough to allow them to do their work. They may switch to Linux if they are upgrading a computer and it is clear that Linux will allow them to do their work without giving much thought to how the computer works.

Re:I would have to agree.

[ticklemeozmo]

I already use it as a desktop OS on my laptop with few problems.

As much I don't feel like burning Karma here with Flamebait, this is exactly the reason it's not ready. It runs on a laptop with "few problems". Few problems is a reason enough not to switch.

Will my USB Camera work? Can 1-touch scanning be setup without the use of a complex script? Joe Dialup doesn't want to go to Sourceforge to find a piece of software called gkehjg2 just to get his device to install and compile (compile? what's that!)

The install for Linux is CLOSE, I believe Fedora(/Redhat) needs to handle their package selection better (why install isdn-tools defaultly??) and file systems scare all but people who use it daily.

Where are you files? "My Documents". How do you move it to another harddrive? "". How do you open it? "Double click it." How do you open that same file in a different program? "You can do that?"

For anyone on Linux, Windows seems like a "toy OS" because everything is hidden. Well, that's what most computer beginners want! They don't have time/don't care about a dependancy, they want it to work, NOW!

I like being the different person on the block, make it just a lil easier so people other than hobbists can use it, but not so secretaries of CEOs can and I'll be happy.

Re:I would have to agree.

[IANAAC]

It runs on a laptop with "few problems". Few problems is a reason enough not to switch.

I've said this before, but I'll repeat it. This is really an old argument. If you were to install Windows XP on the same laptop from scratch, you would run into the same (possibly more) problems. Here's a little experiment I recently did:

I bought an emachine laptop (M5310) not too long ago. It came with XP Home installed. I wiped it clean. Installed Suse 9 on it. I had to change a line in /etc/XF86Config to get the proper screen resolution (1280x800). Hot-plug devices (PC cards and USB) worked properly. ACPI worked fine, although I had to futz with the power-management settings a bit (/etc/sysconfig/powermanagement) to get proper CPU throttling. Other than that, SUSE loaded fine.
Now I decided to load XP Professional. Why professional instead of Home? Well, I had a full copy of XP PRO and didn't have a full Home copy. That's right. The laptop did not ship with the full media. It came with a Ghost image.
Let me tell you... XP Pro barfed all over the place. Could not get wireless working. Screen resolution was 1280-768 stretched (I probably could have found a way to fix this, admittedly). Somehow, after the initial install, the CD/DVD drive was gone. Couldn't get it back. Only one USB port worked - how XP managed that I don't know.

My point is that there will always be problems with getting any machine working properly after a fresh install - Linux, XP, BSD. The real key to desktop acceptance by Joe Camera/Scanner/Dialup is for manufacturers to ship boxes with Linux loaded and a generous set of drivers/modules installed - they're out there. All it takes is for one major computer maker to do the quality testing of everything for their hardware.

Linuxworld server already melting...

[Anonymous Coward]

Linux breaks desktop barrier in 2004: Torvalds

Rodney Gedda , Computerworld

15/01/2004 15:43:16

This year will see Linux finally crack the lucrative desktop market as more commercial software vendors tool up and cash in on the operating system and kernel developers improve graphical interface integration says cult hero and Linux founder Linus Torvalds. Computerworld's Rodney Gedda cornered the penguin power supremo at the Linux.Conf.au in Adelaide.

Computerworld: How do you feel Linux on the desktop is progressing?

Linus Torvalds: Last year was good but I'm seeing a lot more noise about it this year. The server space is easier to tackle first with any operating system as it can be applied to specific tasks such as mail serving; however, the desktop is harder to sell.

Now, the kernel and other pieces are coming together including office applications, games and Web browsers. This has made the Linux desktop interesting to commercials. Commercials tend to choose one desktop, such as KDE or GNOME (GNU Network Object Model Environment), and stick with it. There has been some confusion and rivalry that has helped its development. Right now it looks like the two are closing in on each other, for example, with Red Hat's Bluecurve interface.

I don't think X is going away as it has a powerful infrastructure and throwing it away would be stupid. And its network transparency is good. It's likely that X will be the 2D interface to a lower-level graphics system that is based on OpenGL. The Linux desktop wants to have 3D as the base and X as the interface to 2D.

The fact that X and kernel development have been separate is good; one could evolve without the other but DRI (Direct Rendering Infrastructure) has made them not completely independent. As a developer, having the two separate is good, because different people are good at developing for each.

CW: Any plans for 2004?

LT: I've never had much of a plan for the direction of Linux as I react to outside pressure. This year there will be a lot of desktop users, which will impact kernel developers.

For now I will be working the stabilisation of kernel 2.6 and in a month or two I expect Fedora (the core of Red Hat Linux) to have a release with 2.6 so I expect to get more bug reports.

CW: Would adopting an integrated hardware and software system be good for Linux?

LT: There are pure technical disadvantages of having an operating system that supports a wide range of hardware. The variety of hardware makes it challenging as Linux needs thousands of drivers.

But having an operating system that is independent of the hardware is powerful for the user as it is basically the same on big and small machines. Another big advantage of a wide hardware base is an operating system that is more flexible. This is why Linux is having a lot of impact in the embedded space. An operating system is a complex beast, so it's nice to have an existing one that can be adapted to the hardware. There are a few problem spots with Linux driver support by hardware companies and wireless is one of them. With hardware getting better this problem is being solved.

CW: What about Linux in the enterprise?

LT: The direction Linux takes in the enterprise will depend on what resources enterprise companies put into it. This is the one thing that will push Linux into the high end.

IBM is the most obvious, and although it is impressive to run Linux on high-end hardware, most of the people who work on Linux don't have access to it. It's the regular desktops that get most of the attention by programmers.

CW: What about open source code bundling by commercial software companies?

LT: Quite often that's fine and it is fine with BSD (Berkely Software/Standard Distribution) code. But I like the GPL (General Public Licence), because I want people to give [code] back. If hardware appliance makers don't give back code then that's a problem, but giving it back shouldn't cause any problems. And

Re:Linuxworld server already melting...

[joestar]

>For now I will be working the stabilisation of
> kernel 2.6 and in a month or two I expect Fedora
> (the core of Red Hat Linux) to have a release with
> 2.6 so I expect to get more bug reports.

For your information, Cooker provides Linux 2.6 as kernel default since december. ISO snapshots are available here for download, with also a preview of the new KDE.

And I agree.

[Anonymous Coward]

Look at all the interesting software for linux coming out soon

KDE 3.2
Gnome 2.6
Gimp 2.0
Mplayer 1.0
OpenOffice 2.0
More games than ever
and hundreds of others.

Combine this with kernel 2.6, and with many distros going to be version 10.0 this year, this is going to be great.

KDE 3.2 will be out soon, its so easy to use, no wonder its the most popular desktop environement for Linux.

Re:And I agree.

[grahamlee]

None of KDE, GNOME, Gimp, mplayer or OpenOffice come out for Linux. They just come out. They'll be available in BSD ports systems, for Solaris, AIX, HP-UX, SCO UnixWare, and in the case of KDE, mplayer and Gimp, native Mac OS X. Yes, this software is available for Linux. But it's not Linux software. A "Linux PC", such as this one, contains a whole mishmash of software, which is running atop a Linux kernel. That could so easily be a FreeBSD kernel, a Darwin kernel, a SunOS 5 kernel, Windows running SFU, WIndows running Cygwin, whatever. The source is available and people will build it on their own platforms.

Agree

[bryansj]

I'd have to agree with it being close to having a real viable desktop solution. Having LiveCD's in place, such as Knoppix, showing off the ease of running Linux will help bring it to the masses. It's much easier to try Linux if you just have to boot from CD and then "play" instead of having to commit to the install process. My Knoppix installed Debian feels solid compared to the "feel" of Mandrake and Suse which makes me more likely to recommend it to others that I see as borderline tech savy.

Won't be moving back to Finland

[burgburgburg]

I definitely won't be moving back to Finland though.

Or is it "Can't move back to Finland"? Has he crossed the Finnish mafia once too often? Did he wake up to find smelt heads in his bed? What's the REAL story here?

Re:Won't be moving back to Finland

[EinarH]

-USA is not a socialist welfare state with 60% income tax.

It's more like average tax 45% not 60%.

You're allowed to actually defend yourself and you've got true freedom of speech and thought.

Ann that comes from an Anonymous Coward...
There is nothing in the laws that prevents you from speaking out.

-In the USA winter doesn't last 8 months.

It's more like 6.

-In the USA temperatures don't reach -40 (Fahrenheit or Celcius) in the winter.

It's very rare with sustained temp. below -25 C.

-USA doesn't have a 1000 mile border with the Russia.

Have you been living in a cave the last 2.5 years? The risk of something bad happening to you ain't larger in Finland than USA.

blah blah

The risk of Russia attackin g Finland is pretty low right now. Okay Putin is the new Tzar; but attacking Finland would only bring misery to the Russian economy.

linux.dell.com

[Anonymous Coward]

no desktop mentions, but cool: linux.dell.com

Who will win ?

[Krapangor]

If Linux get Desktop world domination then this raises the question which desktop will rule them all. It's relatively unlikely that two desktops will be supported to the same extend by the OSS community.
So, what do you think KDE or Gnome ?

My bet goes on Gnome because it has better backing by Debian, Novell and Redhat.

Re:Who will win ?

[AlXtreme]

Neither, there are large companies supporting KDE as well. Foss is also about being able to choose: Don't like Linux, try a BSD. Don't like Gnome, try KDE.

Lack of choice, lack of options tend to lead to a lack of innovation and improvement (XFree86? Industry in Sovjet Russia?), whereas competition tends to lead to (great) improvements (US/Sovjet space race? Browser war?), so I sincerly hope no single desktop will ever rule.

In our battles we will have our finest hours.

If he is moving to Australia...

[Soul Brother #1]

Also discussed are topics such as hardware support, the SCO issue, and whether or not he will be moving to Australia.

If he is moving to Australia, maybe he can bring LinuxWorld a new webserver.

Re:No offense,

[thebagel]

Everything is based on the kernel. Maybe he's looking for better optimization for certain routines that, say, OpenGL might utilize.

Or perhaps he's urging the XFree86 team to make some progress with OpenGL performance or card support (like nVidia support without the nVidia drivers). (THAT WASN'T FLAMEBAIT.)

Or perhaps he's urging, say, the GNOME team to make the desktop a tad bit more user friendly.

He could be doing a lot of things; just because he's a kernel dude doesn't mean that his input isn't important.

I agree with him 100% ...

[torpor]

... and I'm even willing to propose that not only is it ready for the desktop, but its ready for a lot of other things as well.

Linux' recent advances in the embedded industry mean that the desktop is really just one place for vmlinuz-xx to succeed. And oddly enough, I also think - as a long-term linux user - that this is an advantage for both fronts, desktop/embedded.

The cool distro's are doing some interesting work too, I might add. Embedded distro's, or more appropriately "source control", are putting a standard system image in some very interesting places, all at once.

2004 is gonna rock. And I know its just my opinion, but I had to say it ...

Re:No offense,

[ainsoph]

cos the kernel is what all that stuff lays on top of.

Userlinux initiative

[gounthar]

2004 will definitely be the linux desktop year.
And IMHO it takes the right direction with Bruce Perens' UserLinux initiative, if he succeeds at convincing linux users/developpers to switch to/work on this new DIY operating system.
It's mission statement would be : Provide businesses with freely available, high quality Linux operating systems accompanied by certifications, service, and support options designed to encourage productivity and security while reducing overall costs.

Right...

[IntergalacticWalrus]

Future slashdot headline:
"Linus says 2034 really, really is the Year for Desktop Linux, honest! I'm pretty damn sure this time! I swear!"

Seriously, we hear that every goddamn year since 2002. It's an annual thing, like those stupid so-called analysts saying "Apple is dying this year".

It's not that I'm against it, in fact I am a desktop Linux user, but this is just ridiculous.

Re:Right...

[Joel Bruick]

Oh no! Not "every goddamn year since 2002"! That's been...two whole years!

isn't kernel a part of it?

[DenOfEarth]

I was wondering similar things myself on reading the headline. I haven't yet installed 2.6 on my machine yet, but I have heard that it is a bit 'snappier', which I believe goes a long way towards making the desktop seem like you are controlling it, rather than having it control you. The KDE / gnome work, is also very important, but a solid fast user-responsive kernel is a boon to anyone trying to sell anyone else on linux on the desktop.

So much for Finnish pride

[smallpaul]

Linus says: I do work from home so I could work anywhere. I definitely won't be moving back to Finland though.

The last half of that sentence was a total non-sequiter. Maybe he is trying to get his mother off his back.

Re:No offense,

[PatrickThomson]

Heresey! Say 15 "Hail Linus's"

Keep declaring it and eventually you'll be right..

[Curious__George]

It's kind of like declaring this is the year that an asteroid will strike the earth. Keep declearing that this is the year and eventually you will be proved right. (not that Linux on the desktop would mean devastation of life on earth, as we know it).

I think more around 2006

[relrelrel]

Partly because it will be my 10 year anniversary of using GNU/Linux... but practically, too.

I can't really put my finger on just why that year sticks out, but it does. I suspect that it will take a year+ for 2.6 to mature/be accepted to the point where most major distros are shipping it and most howtos are being written for it. I also suspect that both GNOME and KDE will reach another major version by 2006 (haven't checked their road maps... just hoping.) I also hope that device support will continue to grow as it has, configuration tools will mature more, and the "your mama" test will be more easily passed. I doubt all that will happen in the next twelve months.

As for what I think COULD happen? I think a major U.S. gov't agency could start putting GNU/Linux into major use. I think we will see a lot more adoption abroad. Maybe even a first world national government promoting it in some way. I understand GNU/Linux desktop usage will top Mac desktop usage (was a /. article on that before.. that or linuxworld.com)...

Now I'm just rambling. This made very little sense. sorry. It is 2:30 AM EST... I'm going to bed.

Desktop 3D?

[ZiZ]

(Linus says:) I don't think X is going away as it has a powerful infrastructure and throwing it away would be stupid. And its network transparency is good. It's likely that X will be the 2D interface to a lower-level graphics system that is based on OpenGL. The Linux desktop wants to have 3D as the base and X as the interface to 2D.

Um...Why do we want a 3D desktop? It seems to me that first of all, 3D is always going to be slower to manage and display than 2D; monitors (even the newer ones with the spiffy multi-layer technology) don't really handle 3D displays well. Yes, I want my 3D displays, such as they are, for gaming; I don't see any real need or use for it in a business desktop, though.

Feel free to correct me here, but I don't read text on a slanted pane very well...:)

Re:Desktop 3D?

[be-fan]

Its not being to be a 3D desktop. Its going to use 3D hardware on current graphics cards to allow for really rich 2D artwork. Current-gen 3D hardware can do Quartz-style anti-aliased, transparent 2D without breaking a sweat, and that's what developers want to take advantage of.

Re:Desktop 3D?

[JohnLi]

Did you not see that sun 3d java desktop demo that was posted here a while back? It was used in a cool, meaningful way. The windows flipped around so that you could write notes or attach other files to particular instances of a browser or application.

I agree that most of the 3d implementations floating around lack a bit of practicality, but just because it has sucked in the past doesnt mean that it is doomed to suck. We just need a few people with some inovative ideas to make it work.

I personaly believe that it will mostly be used for asthetics and not functionality, but you never know. I also think voice activation will be better realized way before an emersive 3d folder browser becomes usefull.

Ive wondered a few times why no one has attempted to port the quake engine to a window manager.

Re:Desktop 3D?

[be-fan]

Eh? We're actually ahead of the game. Freedesktop.org (the most likely sucessor to XFree86) is working on an OpenGL-accelerated XServer as we speak :) They're ripping out the DRI from the X server and making an independent layer out of it. Its *fascinating* work. If a first release comes out early 2005, then we will beat Longhorn to the market by about a year.

Oh, and OS X isn't already there, contrary to popular belief. It uses OpenGL, but in a very limited way, only for compositing windows together. All 2D is done via the CPU, and its dependence on the PDF model might make it more complex for them to transition Quartz2D to OpenGL.

Re:Desktop 3D?

[be-fan]

Um, how?

freedesktop.org has code you can grab from CVS *right now*, and initial reports indicate that the work will be done in the early 2005 timeframe. None of the Longhorn betas have the new DirectX-accelerated GUI yet. That makes freedesktop.org ahead of the game in my book.

Linux Desktop Already Easier for Some Things

[lukior]

I use both Windows XP and Mandrake and I use a wide range of programs. While most of my programs wont even work on Linux (I don't count xwindows) There are a crop of programs that I prefer on Linux or actually a crop of applications. One example, Myth, is a program that beats the hell out of Windows Media Center Edition. I think the more Microsoft tries to lock down what you can do with your computer the more success Linux will have.

Its interesting but...

[CrackedButter]

... will GenuLinux get the software it needs to make it on the desktop?
Why is it hard to release a well known application for linux? I won't suggest photoshop because somebody will remind me about GIMP and totally sidetrack the question.
But why is there resistance to releasing an a high end application on GenuLinux? The way i see it, the don't want to touch the GPL and i keep hearing that as the cause for resistance. But DO you have to add to the GPL, i thought you could just release the app and make people buy it (like any other app), why the connotations that Genulinux users have to have it for free or won't pay just because the OS is?
I don't think it has anything to do with MS either for say Adobe to release an application for GenuLinux. I think they might be confused as I am, moreso when i see photoshop ported to linux using WINE.

Don't mean to be the naysayer, but..

[xankar]

Linux is ready for the desktop market, concerning speed, power, and(almost) ease of use.

The major obstacle is that people stick with what they're comfortable with.
Linux's office programs are just as good(if not better) than their windows equivalents, but everyone I know who uses Word will stick with it till they die, because they know it backwards and forwards(I got my friend, an author, running linux, and he loves it, but he made me get word to work on it via Wine).

I use openoffice(I dual boot and use openoffice in both XP and Linux), but only because I didnt want to shell out for word when i got my new computer.

People are comfortable with what they've been using in the past. Until the layperson can understand the massive advantages of using linux, they will stick to windows.

Good enough for desktop matters not

[Silicon Knight]

This year will see Linux finally crack the lucrative desktop market as more commercial software vendors tool up and cash in on the operating system and kernel developers improve graphical interface integration says cult hero and Linux founder Linus Torvalds.

Yes, Linux is a suitable desktop replacement. I still don't see a significant number of people making the switch. What is the motivation for the average user who has invested time in learning Windows to switch?

Aside from impoverished goverments in third world countries (California anyone?) are the masses going to bother learning something new when what they have tends to meet their needs?

Re:Good enough for desktop matters not

[Hugh George Asm]

Yes, Linux is a suitable desktop replacement. I still don't see a significant number of people making the switch. What is the motivation for the average user who has invested time in learning Windows to switch?

Well, I have some experience here. My mom ran windows for the last 3 years. She doesn't know computers, but that's what her DELL had on it. She has been it with virii and recently some adware that prominently displayed itself on her desktop.

Her computer runs slower and she doesn't know why. Probably unknown background processes chewing up CPU. All she does is email and surf the web, but the computer crashes and she is annoyed beyond belief with it. She is begging me to put something better on her machine, and she SPECIFICALLY asked for linux. She knows about linux as an alternative because I've mentioned that it's what I run on my machines. Her problems with windows have led her to conclude that she'd rather try something--anything--than continue running what she has. Oh yeah, she has paid "her guru" to come over and fix problems several times, and is tired of hiring someone to fix things that shouldn't be broken. So, an unstable, unreliable, virus-ridden, expensive operating system is its own incentive to switch. At least for MY mom.

Re:No offense,

[mydigitalself]

contrary to some of the other responses to your post - i agree with you wholeheartedly. success and penetration of the desktop will have very little to do with performance from 2.6 kernel - but rather with good usability practices within the community.

Interesting that Linus's laptop runs Windows too

[GillBates0]

According to this old interview with Linus covered in this old Slashdot story, Linus uses a Linux-Windows dual-boot:

What's his latest toy?

A Sony Electronics Inc. Vaio, Japanese edition. It's a handheld PC that has a 4-GB hard disk, 64 MB of RAM and a Pentium MMX 266-MHz processor. It weighs in at just 2.6 pounds and runs both Linux and Windows. "It's cute as hell." Oh, and it has a built-in camera.

Now imagine Billy-boy using Linux (maybe just to give it a test-run) and talking publicly about it. That would never happen because of the expected PR backlash.

Linus, on the other hand can be as frank as he wants to, without an axe hanging over his head.

Interesting, though nothing earth-shattering. Open-source also supports Freedom.

Re:No offense,

[pyros]

Doesn't Linus work on the kernel? How is his input vital for desktops which are KDE/GNOME dominated now, projects he is not involved with...

Don't underestimate the importance of a good kernel for the desktop. You need good multitasking support (low-latency context switching, an efficient scheduler, a good VM system) for the GUI environment to be responsive and zippy. You need a good infrastructure and API for device drivers to get the most out of your peripherals. People hate buying a fancy video card only to find that half the I/O ports aren't supported.

Re:I think 2004 is make or break

[twocents]

Why would any year for Linux be make or break? That makes no sense at all when one considers the strides that have been made in just the last few years.

I personally think Linux is popular because of X,OpenOffice,Gimp,Apache,TuxRacer, etc etc, and ETC and there is nothing but more software coming out for the OS. I cannot imagine everyone throwing in the towel after 2004 if Linux doesn't take over the desktop: "Oh hell, forget it, this was to be THE year, but wasn't so let's shut the doors."

Also, a lot of people are already using Linux as a desktop and feel the "make" much more than the "break" already. If mass appeal picks up, great, but considering the effort that goes into the OS and the software that runs on Linux, to simplify one year as THE defining year for an operating system misses the point.

Re:No offense,

[gl4ss]

among other things hardware support(for CURRENT hardware) is vital for desktop success(which 2.6 may or may not have impact on later on, or whatever he plans to do).

the page isn't loading for me so I can't really comment on if his commenting it somehow.
-

Linux isn't user friendly.

[1iar_parad0x]

I'm a programmer, and I don't mind having to google/read a book/scour the newsgroups to find out how to install XYZ software. However, the average user wants to just point and click. They like having Microsoft/Apple update their software for them. Look how popular Norton is. I just don't see how the open source movement will ever be motivated to work on usability issues related to Linux.

Think about this. How many times have you heard the terms "usability" and "open source" in the same sentence. Now how many times have you heard these same terms without the word "NOT". Have you ever heard of "yet another user interface"? No, instead we have software with names like yacc, Bison, and ANTLR (all of these programs are used in compiler design).

Look, I like Linux too, but as a server. It's just not ready for the desktop.

Re:Linux isn't user friendly.

[Telex4]

I just don't see how the open source movement will ever be motivated to work on usability issues related to Linux. ...
How many times have you heard the terms "usability" and "open source" in the same sentence.

Many times. Anyone who pays the slightest bit of attention to the development of KDE, GNOME and almost all good Qt/Gtk applications will see those terms put together a lot. KDE and GNOME both have dedicated usability teams, and have commissioned or made use of usability studies on their work.

Look, I like Linux too, but as a server. It's just not ready for the desktop.

That statement is completely meaningless. It's ready for my desktop, it's ready for my girlfriend's desktop once I installed it, and according to my art-teacher tech-hating parents it's ready for their desktop with a little tweaking of default configurations.

Ask the same of Windows and MacOS, and I think you'll find that the situation is more or less the same, except for the need to tweak configurations in KDE and GNOME for my parents.

Just anecdotal evidence, of course, but enough to show how meaningless your statements were.

Re:Linux isn't user friendly.

[forevermore]

the average user wants to just point and click [to install software]

And how is this different from Ximian's Red Carpet, or the Redhat Update agent that comes with fedora (and now points to free repositories)? It tells you when there are updates, and even has options to auto-update for you. A more knowledgeable user can easily add more apt/yum repositories for 3rd-party software. This blows away anything that OSX or Windows has - not only do you get updates for core packages, but for your favorite applications, too.

Re:Linux isn't user friendly.

[sik0fewl]

. . . instead we have software with names like yacc, Bison, and ANTLR (all of these programs are used in compiler design).

Yeah, I know. My grandma's gonna be pissed when she can't find the right tools for compiler design.

The Two Fronts to Desktop Adoption

[Schlemphfer]

I've been reading Slashdot for years, but have only started playing around with Linux in the past month. It's great to hear Linus say that the desktop is almost ready for prime time. But I think no matter how good the desktop experience is, quality alone won't win over users.

What finally got me to try Linux is when I read a post on Slashdot about Mepis, which, like Knoppix, is a Linux distribution on a bootable CD. While I'd been aching to give Linux a try for years, I never had a spare box to run it, and I wasn't about to wipe XP and all my stuff off my main computer. If you haven't heard about it, Mepis is a full linux install and suite of software that you can boot off a CD and play with, without wiping your existing operating system from your hard drive.

After trying Mepis for just a couple hours, I fell in love. Everything from my optical mouse to my Nvidia drivers to my keychain drive worked without any installation. I'm going to go on using XP on my current box, but I now know that the Linux desktop is indeed ready for prime time. When I upgrade to a new system next year, Microsoft won't get a penny. I'm going to buy a whitebox system, and get myself a good Linux distribution.

I don't care how polished Linux gets; I think the only way it's ever going to get exposure to general users is on Mepis/Knoppix style CD ROMs that let people take the OS for a test drive. I really think that the best way to bring Linux to the general public is to distribute as many ten-cent CD ROMs as you can to friends and family, so they can see for themselves that there's no need to pay the Microsoft tax on their next PC purchase.

The way I see it, overcoming Microsoft's hegemony requires working on two fronts. The first is building quality distributions that work plug-and-play with everything from printers to wireless cards. And the second front is the creation of full-featured bootable CD's that let people see -- on their own machine -- how great Linux has become.

Again?

[Tom7]

Not that I'm complaining, but wasn't 2003 supposed to be the year of desktop linux?

Re:Interesting that Linus's laptop runs Windows to

[TrollBridge]

"Linus, on the other hand can be as frank as he wants to, without an axe hanging over his head.

Interesting, though nothing earth-shattering. Open-source also supports Freedom."

Hardly.

I'd venture it's because the Slashdot community holds their villians to a higher standard than their heroes.

Re:No offense,

[enjo13]

He's more than a kernel hacker, he's an open source leader. Part of his role in the community is to set direction, identify problem areas, and do all of those other things that leaders do.

By Linus coming out and focusing on the desktop (even if just in words) he's effectively pointing the collective effort of the open source community more and more to that end.

Whoa there!

[hobuddy]

I think you mean GNU/Christ, brother.

'04 is not the Year of the Desktop for Joe Sixpack

[theantix]

... because many important peripherals do not work by default. For example, getting 802.11x is still a pita in linux unless you plan ahead by making certain that your hardware works with it. And most people won't care about saving a few hundred bucks if they can't get a scanner or camera or mp3 player or PDA or $whatever to interface with their PC. I could not pretend that an average user should use Linux at this point, unless they are interesting in having PC maintenance as a new hobby.

This is not a problem with the linux kernel, but instead a typical problem of market share in a marketplace dominated by a player with a high degree of monopoly power. Put more simply, the problem is not that Linux sucks, it just needs to have larger market share before hardware manufacturers pay attention and bother with the hassle of trying to deal with Linux (multiple distros, multiple DEs, etc).

However, 2004 will probably be the year where corporations start to move some of their enterprise desktops to Linux. With Novell and Sun both pushing Linux/GNOME solutions, and the less varied peripheral requirements of Linux in the corporate environment... things seem to be pointing in that direction. I would predict that "Year of the Desktop" makes more sense for 2005, when Linux will be building market share thanks to the corps, and hardware manufacturers start to pay more attention to getting things to work.

Though, for knowledgeable people who are willing to go through the hassle of getting devices to work with Linux, the Year of the Desktop was really 2003... at least for me it was. DVD, ALSA, OOo, MozillaFirebird.... these things help make the Linux desktop possible and they are here long before 2004 started.

Re:No offense,

[Unknown Lamer]

This is what XPDE is trying to do (clone the Windows XP interface). Except for the applications part...it provides a shell that looks like the Windows XP one along with a control panel and some other stuff (at least I seem to remember it having that stuff).

Personally, you can pry Window Maker out of my cold dead fingers...but I've been using GNU/Linux on the desktop full time for nearly four years. All the software I use works fine on GNU/Linux so I have no need for Windows. I just need a few games (Frozen-Bubble, LBreakout2, Legacy Doom, Quake2), Emacs, a web browser, and a simple DAW for my occasional audio work (Ardour is awesome for this). I'm not a "desktop user" I guess.

What about Munich

[YU Nicks NE Way]

According to The Register, Munich is finding that trying to get Linux on the city's desktop is not yet possible -- even with direct help from IBM and SuSE. They're finding that what Microsoft has said about Word is true in general: it isn't just the big things that everybody uses which are a problem, but also the little things which a very small number of people can't do without. In that case of Word, it turns out that almost everybody has a few small, exotic features that they really need, and that those small features, taken together, add up to a much greater barrier than all the big features which everybody needs.

This isn't going to be the year of Linux on the desktop if that holds true generally.

its not neccessarily about the product

[mydigitalself]

ok, so maybe linux itself is nearing readyness to take on windows. gnome/kde have come a long way as have the kernel and indeed linux PR in general.

however, i still do not feel that 2004 is "year of the linux desktop" because the market will not be ready for it. i will come back to my regular example - my mother. not only is she an occasional home user, but my mother runs a business of about 40 people strong who do medical aid claims processing. like many companies her size, she runs:
* Windows on Desktop
* Windows on Server
* Office on Desktop
* Exchange on Server
* ACCESS APPLICATION THAT WAS WRITTEN FOR HER

ok. so the first 3 you can pretty much wipe out with linux. the exchange thing, i still believe is a problem. i have been babblin on about good groupware capabilities in Linux for years and quite frankly i'm still shocked at the lack of a good alternative to exchange. although i am impressed by ximian's exchange connector - how ironic is running MS Exchange for your server and Linux on the desktop...

anyway. lets get back to the BIG PROBLEM - her access database package. in fact, when i go to my dentist - they've got some custom built access application. as does my physio. as do many small sized businesses.

the thing that will make it the year for the linux desktop will be a big "SWITCH"-like campaign. although all the pieces of the puzzle (ximian, 2.6 kernel, KDE, GNOME, CrossOver etc...) are available - they still need to be assembled to create the correct picture - and this will continue to take time. but i feel that a big assistant to this could come from some clever people like VMWare or Citrix. "ok, so you have this, this and that running on Windows - and there is no Linux version. ok, lets just run them in a thin-client/emulator". that will need a lot more knowledge from the small outsourced IT company my mother currently uses, and a bit more technical innovation. the long and the short: still more time.

Re:Desktops in decline

[EllF]

Shame that those buttons and functions frequently use proprietary drivers that the companies making the laptops won't open up. Why is the burden on "Linux" -- which is a kernel, essentially -- to make a bunch of closed-source companies' crap work? If the NVIDIA drivers are breaking, are you certain that the onus is on Linus and friends to fix it?

Re:No offense,

[pyros]

If you could build a Linux system that a KDE or Gnome theme that made the system seem exactly like XP, coupled with applications that behaved exactly like the ones people are used to, you'd have a winner.

You know, I hear that argument quite a bit. But Windows 9x -> XP had a learning curve. Mac OS 9 -> Mac OS X had a learning curve. The same goes for applications. Every now and then the interface changes, and users learn how to use it. With OS, the vast majority just go with what's already installed when they buy it. Once Gnome and KDE are deemed useable enough to ship pre-installed on consumer PC lines by the likes of Dell, Sony, and HP, people will buy them as long as they can access all their files. They don't need to know that every widget will look the same. When people buy a new replacement computer, they say "Will I be able to view all my photos and listen to all my songs? Will I be able to access all my favorite web sites? Will I be able access my documents and spreadsheets?" If applications have full file compatibility, and the system mime types are set correctly, they won't care. They'll see right away that it's a little different, and they'll take the time to learn it, as long as the files open and the data is still correct.

Depends on who you ask...

[Kjella]

How is his input vital for desktops which are KDE/GNOME dominated now, projects he is not involved with...

I'm sure you can say the opposite when it comes to hardware support "To get Linux on the desktop, it needs to work with every two-bit gizmo Joe Average has. The kernel needs to do that, not us".

And then someone will come along and say "Kernel, KDE/Gnome that's all nice. But it's our *applications* that make people come to Linux. Without applications, Linux is nothing".

Who is right? A little bit of everybody. And Linus is leading one of the trinity, so I'd say he's pretty damn important.

Kjella

Desktop Wish List

[donweel]

For me to switch more toward my Unix style installation instead of XP I would like to see more multimedia. I see a trend toward using the PC as a multimedia entertainment centre. Hook up a projector and you have TV, PVR, timeshifing live TV, Radio Games, mail and Internet on a big screen. I don't see a whole lot of support for the All in Wonder Radeon in Linux or BSD. Also more games would be nice. Otherwise Linux would be a nice stable platform for a Multimedia PC. How about mabey a Multimedia Linux Version, hey Linus, pretty please.

Re:Desktop Wish List

[fishbowl]

We need something we can't have. And if you ask for it you get flamed for asking: device drivers for YOUR hardware. As an alternative, we could make do with real hardware compatability lists, but they would have to really say what to buy, and they'd have to be current.

2.6.1 was a step backwards for me; framebuffer console support has broken for the two drivers that I need; radeonfb and tridentfb. Reponses to my bug reports have ranged from "fix it yourself", to "you don't need that feature". It does not appear that very many people know what framebuffer consoles are, and the kernel was released with these broken drivers not even tagged as "experimental." That's poor quality. Don't flame *me*. I understand the issues. But we're trying to break into a market where people don't take excuses.

What else doesn't work on your system? Quick, tell me what PCI 802.11g card to buy. I need a thousand of them fed-exed from my vendor to deploy on my linux desktops.

Does the SD card reader work on my Toshiba notebooks? Why not? Again, I know the reason is that it's "obscure hardware". The business folks that you need to impress in order to get your system on their desktops don't care, and don't listen to your excuses.

How about multimedia playback? Without really trying hard, can the desktop users deal with all the media formats that they're going to encoounter? Don't make the excuse that "recreational use" requires multimedia and "professional use" does not. The people who you need to sell the product to don't take excuses.

It's a tough situation, because a whole lot of these problems aren't going to be fixed, and least not in 2004, the "year of the desktop". Not unless Microsoft stops selling office products and stops supporting Exchange. Not unless all the hardware companies were getting on the ball last year and are going to suddenly release specs for all the broken hardware. To the layman, the linux system is going to appear as a defective product, if you try to market it as a true alternative to Windows or MacOS.

PLEASE don't flame me. I KNOW the deal. I LOVE linux. I use it on *my* desktop. I work for a company that has a huge deployment of linux on developer desktops and servers. I'm a dyed-in-the-wool Unix advocate from the beginning, and I've been all about linux since my first exposure to the 0.99 kernel. I know we can "get on the desktop" and we're actually already there in some situations. But climbing over the Great Wall of Hardware Compatability, and then breaking through the Singularity of Software Targets? Maybe the hardware thing will happen as more Asian computer manufacturers are forced by Asian customers to support universal systems. Maybe the software thing will happen after the hardware thing does, and the demand increases.

But just saying that "this is the year of the desktop" isn't going to create the market demand.
Buying controlling stock in a few hardware manufacturers might just do it. Start with Toshiba and Dell. Nobody who could afford that, has the balls to actually say "this company sells Linux systems and does not support Windows"
It's only corporate-suicide if you don't believe in the strategy, provided you have enough cash to weather the early years of the plan... :-)

2004? Doubtful.

[zgwortz962]

While I think Linux's desktop is mostly ready for prime time (both KDE and Gnome could still use a lot of polish, though...), it's driver architecture is not. 2.6 is still suffering from a lot of old and poor architectural choices, making it difficult to develop drivers for new hardware quickly. I saw some discussion of changes which could go into 2.7/2.8 which might make it easier to correct this. But until the driver architecture is fixed, you're going to have installation problems on newer machines. And until you have really smooth installation on newer machines, people aren't going to adopt Linux on the desktop. It has to be trivial to install or it won't fly.

Don't forget ...

[burgburgburg]

Patriot Act
Clean Skies Initiative
I'm a compassionate conservative.

Or my favorite:
I was elected President of the United States.

With all due respect to Linus,

[i)ave]

the year of the linux-desktop is not going to happen until Linux creates some standards and conformity among distros. I know, I know, "the beauty of linux is its ability to be any flavor you want". Well, I don't agree. KDE, GNOME should merge, having 2 competing desktop environments is not productive. There are WAY TOO MANY DISTROS. Confuses the hell out of newbies. The mainstream demands conformity and wants 1 desktop and 1 distro to be dominant. Hardware detection needs to get a lot better, too. Someone on here mentioned that the linux office suites are as good or better than those of Windows... That's complete hogwash, not even close. The latest OOo is much better than before, but still a 2nd tier solution to MS office. Staroffice is still 2nd tier, too.

I'm amazed that someone pointed out that Linus uses a laptop that has Windows on it, as well as linux, and used that as an example of what an honest guy Linus is (because he was willing to tell everyone, since presumeably, Gates would never be that honest if his laptop had linux). The fact that Linus has Windows loaded on his laptop along with Linux is a blatant example of the fact that LINUX IS NOT COMPLETELY READY FOR MAINSTREAM. Maybe, Linus should be using his laptop without Windows before he declares 2004 the "year of the linux desktop".

Okay, now everyone go ahead and flame away, I've set myself up here I suppose, but just keep in mind I'm very much PRO-LINUX. I want nothing more than 2004 to be the year of the linux-desktop... I'm just a realist and there are a lot of people in the Linux community who are realists, too, who understand that linux is headed in too many different directions to be mainstream. Organize, combine, simplify: 1 distro, 1 desktop, solid hardware detection, simple upgrades.

Re:With all due respect to Linus,

[CaptainTux]

The fact that Linus has Windows loaded on his laptop along with Linux is a blatant example of the fact that LINUX IS NOT COMPLETELY READY FOR MAINSTREAM. Maybe, Linus should be using his laptop without Windows before he declares 2004 the "year of the linux desktop".

I think that, as an OS, Linux is completely ready for the desktop and even has enough consumer ready applications to satisfy the average desktop user who does things like email, surf the web, a few file transfers, etc. But the main problems with Linux have less to do with the availability of application than it does to do with the availablillity of specific commercial applications on the platform. Users don't like having to learn new things. Making the jump from Windows to Linux is a big change in their lives then they are told "Oh, by the way: few of the applications you've used for the past 15 years will be available to you on Linux. You'll have to learn the alternatives". In many cases, those alternatives are just as good or nearly as good as their Windows counterparts. But it's still having to learn something new.

I don't think we're going to really see the "year of desktop Linux" until 1) More Windows-centric vendors begin releasing Linux versions of their software so the transition is eased, 2) There is more parity between Linux distro's, or 3) Open Source developers stop the "I'm developing to scratch my own itch" type of thinking and start thinking about enhancing the community as a whole and writing software because it needs to be written even if they don't have a stake in it. Then, I believe we will start to see widespread adoption of Linux at the consumer level. But it's going to take a little while. We own the server. We're reaching the desktop.

Looking for a great open source license that is business friendly? Check out the Consumer Public Access License at www.safferconsulting.com/capl.htm

Re:Another year...

[fred87]

True about IM protocols, but "serious gaming" is rather vague... i'm perfectly happy with americas army and several other unreal and quake games :) Fast boot times - on slackware with a 2.4.23 kernel with pre-empt and parralel bootscripts, i'm at the kdm login screen in 3 seconds from pressing the power button (1.4ghz laptop with 314mb ram...)

For the glasses.

[frostman]

Um...Why do we want a 3D desktop?

So we can all wear those cool red/blue glasses at work!

Duh!

troll food

[ajrs]

so what exactly is your complaint?

I've been using linux as my desktop since 94. Its gotten a heck of a lot easier to use in the meanwhile. I'll say it right here: the usability of open source continues to improve, and is in fact better than the last windows desktop I had to use.

how do you install bison or yacc on windows, anyhow?

All comments aside...

[msimm]

The really cool thing about Linus is he really is like the number one fan of Linux. 2004, the year of Linux on the desktop? Probably not really, but you can tell he is really enjoying this, and I really appreciate that.

Desktop Linux

[Brian Blessed]

I find it surprising that more businesses aren't aware of the benefits of switching to Linux desktops that are X thin clients. I use an LTSP-style setup at home and it really works well. There aren't low-cost clients available in the shops though, so I have to make my own using VIA mini-ITX kit for about 150ukp (~$250).
With the commoditisation of gigabit networking and 64-bit machines (i.e. Opteron), it must be fairly easy for one server to support more than 40 desktops.

- Brain.

This is why

[haggar]

First of all, winters aren't insanely cold. For example, this winter in Helsinki we only had 3 days at -15 degrees C so far, the rest has been between 0 and -6.

But the reason to live here are many: excellent education, health and public transport and beautiful living conditions: the whole city is embedded in parks. We actually don't have something you can call parks, the buildings and streets are actually connected together with large green areas. Basically, you can go anywhere through parks and woods.

Finns like to live close to nature, and somehow, wild animals feel comfortable in the presence of people. So it's easy to meet, even here, in the capital area, with squirrels, wild rabbits, pheasants, and sometimes even bears and wolfs (a bit more to the north, but still metropolitan area). I find this wonderful!

And then, there's the mentailty of the people, which I like so very much: Finnland have extremely low crime rate, and Finns in general don't lie (in any case, much less than any other nation I have seen, and I've traveled a lot), which makes life very simple. As a consequence, the administrative overhead to do anything, is very low. You can do most things by way of internet or just telephone.

So, it might not be your cup of tea, but for me it's paradise.

Yet another...

[Overly Critical Guy]

This is yet another article on "the state of Linux on the desktop," and yet again, we're told this year will be "the year."

I've been hear that since at least 1998, every year.

Re:Yet another...

[The Dobber]

If at first you don't succeed, try, try again.

Re:Yet another...

[pantherace]

Recalling a comment on this, which is quoted loosely, and I can't remember the source:

"Every year we had been hearing that this year was to be the year of the LAN. Allsorts of hype, and eventually it died down, and when it did, LANs were everywhere."

I highly suspect that it is going to be like this for linux :)

Re:Yet another...

[Geek of Tech]

Well, compared to the previous year, every year has been "the year" for Linux.

Re:Yet another...

[Anonymous Coward]

I've been hear that since at least 1998, every year.

From Linus? Because the fact that he specifically is saying this, and not the geek masses who've been chanting it for six years, is pretty much the entire point of the blurb.

Re:Yet another...

[zurab]

This is yet another article on "the state of Linux on the desktop," and yet again, we're told this year will be "the year."

I've been hear that since at least 1998, every year.

That may be as far as /., but it's not true for Linus. In fact, when he started working on 2.4, Linus said it would be geared mostly towards server-based systems and functionality.

When 2.4 was stable and he started working on 2.6, Linus said he wanted to put in more features for desktop. Now, I don't know if you noticed, but Linux on servers has been working out pretty well during that time period. Now, it's desktop's turn (according to Linus) and we'll see what happens; even Linus admits that it's harder on the desktop:

The server space is easier to tackle first with any operating system as it can be applied to specific tasks such as mail serving; however, the desktop is harder to sell.

Re:Yet another...

[finse]

Hey 1998 was the year of Linux on the desktop, for me at least :)

I am now in my 6th year of Linux on the desktop, and I must say... It gets better every year.

finse

Re:Yet another...

[Gherald]

Yes but remember back in the day when he first started working on the Linux network code, he bumped the kernel version up to .90 thinking he was almost done. And then there were like 200 kernel releases between Linux .9 and 1.0?

My point is that he's been wrong before, and he could be wrong now. He's not as omniscient as some OSS jocks try to make him out to be.

I do not consider Linus an expert on desktop systems. He is first and foremost a kernel hacker.

Now, don't get me wrong, I am very pleased with my kernel 2.6/Gentoo/Gnome desktop. But I do not think it is ready for prime time. Much work remains to be done to simplify configuration and installation, both for the distros themselves, adding applications, and new hardware.

Re:Yet another...

[srussell]

Recalling a comment on this, which is quoted loosely, and I can't remember the source: "Every year we had been hearing that this year was to be the year of the LAN. Allsorts of hype, and eventually it died down, and when it did, LANs were everywhere." I highly suspect that it is going to be like this for linux :)

This is really insightful.

And why not? Just because last year was the Linux Desktop year, why can't this year also be the Linux Desktop year? In fact, for the past couple of years we've been hearing about high profile migrations from Windows to Linux -- Munich, IBM -- and I'd argue that this is an indication that there are many more smaller, lower profile migrations going on that we don't hear about.

So, yeah... if we see another couple of big migrations to Linux on the desktop, then I think this year, too, qualifies as the year of Linux on the Desktop.

Re:Yet another...

[WWWWolf]

Why am I so hars? Because Java hasn't lived up to its potential - yet. Yes, it may be important, but when it becomes important, you won't notice because it will blend into the landscape. Another history lesson: For years people were talking about "198X will be the Year of the LAN," but when it finally happened, no one noticed because it was accepted. Does anyone remember exactly what year was the year of the CD-ROM? No. It just happened. The same thing will happen to Java.

- Vincent Flanders in "Web Pages That Suck" book (and the website), 1998

(Okay, Java seems to be all over the place now, all right. What was the Year of Java? I think I missed it.)

Re:Yet another...

[Overly Critical Guy]

This is really insightful.

No, it's not. LANs are completely different from Linux being on the desktop. LANs were the next technological step in networking. Linux is behind two other major desktop systems--Windows and MacOS.

People keep saying it will be the year of the Linux desktop without explaining why or how. And they seem to pretend Windows and MacOS are magically going to halt progress or disappear in the meantime. People said Linux would take over when Longhorn's release date was pushed ahead, yet XP shows no signs of disappearing, and SP2 is even due out soon.

Re:Yet another...

[nathanm]

emerge is a step forward but still not the answer. Bandwidth is expensive and it does not scale.

How does emerge not scale? Besides, Gentoo isn't really aimed at general desktop users or corporate users, it's geared towards hobbyists, power users, and developers.

Backwards compatibility for libraries, often times there are packages I cannot install without installing a newer version of a library that breaks other packages. This is a useful feature if you are using more than one package that uses the same library.

That's why Linux (& Unix) allows you to have multiple versions of most libraries installed. You can have libfoo.so.2 and libfoo.so.1 both installed, and binaries linked against either one will still work fine.

The idea of placing desktop applications on a handful of /bin, /sbin, /usr/bin /usr/sbin directories is in bad taste. ping, traceroute, fdisk fine. But there is no directory set aside for GUI applications. It would be like taking every file on a windows machine and moving it to either /windows or /system32. This is not a requirement for POSIX compliance, but hey, the current method sucks and of you are saying is NEEDS to stay that way than you are just reinforcing my point.

No desktop apps are ever installed in /bin, only a few, specified binaries that are essential for all users. There are also no desktop apps ever installed in /sbin, or /usr/sbin, only system binaries for root's use. Most distros don't install any desktop apps in /usr/bin either, they mostly use /usr/local/bin, or there is the /opt tree also.

But most windows apps do install files under /Windows (or /WINNT depending on your windows version), /Windows/System, /Windows/System32, "/Windows/Application Data", or "/Program files/Common Files", and don't even get me started about that quagmire known as the Windows Registry.

It would take all of 2 minutes for someone to add one line to FHS 2.3 that says "3.4 /apps : Optional directory for graphical applications" but that will never happen. There are 59 sections in FHS that state where to put everything but GUI applications are not even mentioned. That might have something to do with the reason people seem to throw them all over the disk.

The FHS is very easy to learn and understand, they even provide a rationale for why things are done a certain way (try finding that from Microsoft). It doesn't have a specific place for GUI apps because it doesn't distinguish between GUI and non-GUI apps. But it does have a specific location for Add-on application software packages, the /opt directory. And I've never seen a Linux app that was more all over the disk than most standard windows apps.

Figuring out where shit is requires checking the package manager DB or running locate, which, whereis, or something like 'find / -name application 2/dev/null' THAT is intuitive. On my windows box I can tell you Trillian is in /program files/trillian without having to look.

Maybe the executable is in that folder, but if it's like most windows apps, it also installs libraries and configuration files all over the disk, and then makes several obscure registry entries with classid names like the incredibly intuitive {9dff8a8-5df4-87cf-b8c7-4df789a6d78}.

Linux package management and the filesystem hierarchy are far from perfect, but Windows is much more of a mess. Windows installers may be user-friendly, but try guessing what it's really doing, or try uninstalling something cleanly. That's why Windows gradually gathers kruft and slows down over time, requiring complete reinstalls to keep a smooth running system.

Re:MERGE!

[BenjyD]

Please Please Please! Will people shut up about merging GNOME and KDE. It's won't happen, can't happen, shouldn't happen. IT'S NEVER GOING TO HAPPEN.

You want reasons? OK.

- One is C, the other C++. Many programmers of each project would find it difficult to switch over. I write C++ almost exclusively - switching to pure C is a wrench for me and I don't enjoy it so much. I can't imagine what a complex C++ class hierachy like KDE would look like after a bunch of C programmers 'maintained' it.
- Doubling the number of programmers even on a commercial project where everyone is paid to work doesn't double output. On projects where most of the work is on a volunteer basis, so people have to *really want* to work, the ratio would be even worse. Factor in the arguments caused by all those developers with different ideas, and you could end up actually lowering productivity.
- You can't tell volunteer developers what to do. If you shut down GNOME and said "now work on KDE", I guarantee that most of the GNOME developers would start up their own DWARF project within a week.
- Choice is GOOD. I don't like GNOME. Others don't like KDE. Who is right? Neither of us - it's a personal judgement.

What is a good thing is the increasing agreement on standard protocols for exchange between the two. "Desktop Linux" is not a product produced by development teams. They just make the components - distro makers take the projects and make an integrated desktop from them.

Bootable CDs

[truthsearch]

I agree that bootable CDs make a huge difference. There is one problem, though. I've given bootable CDs to a few people. When they reboot with the CD in the drive nothing happens but Windows loading. Many (most?) users need to set their BIOS to try booting from CD because it's not set by default. When I explain that it's an immediate turn-off, no matter how easy it is. They sigh and think using Linux means work. They've all been happy in the end, but unfortunately it may not be as easy as handing out CDs and saying, "Put this in and turn on your computer." Plus if this becomes common I'm sure a certain big software company will strongly suggest to desktop hardware manufacturers that booting from CD not be on by default.

The Crux of the bisquit.

[RatBastard]

...it just needs to have larger market share before hardware manufacturers pay attention and bother with the hassle of trying to deal with Linux (multiple distros, multiple DEs, etc).

And those are the real problems with Linux. There are too many choices that developers and users have to deal with.

Lots of choice is what makes Linux popular with the tech-head crowd, but it drives Joe User away like having rabid weasels shoved down your trousers. Joe User doesn't want to give a damn what distrobution of Linux he/she's using. They just want to use it. And Joe Developer sure as hell doesn't want to deal with all those different versions of Linux out there. They want to develope to a single platform and get their product out the door.

Consider Windows for a moment. With the exception of deceased versions (Windows 3.1, NT 3-3.5, Win 95), most users don't need to care what version they are running. Most consumer apps run just fine on whatever version you have (unless they are some super-neat "upgrade or die" program MS has created or have specific needs that Win98/ME can't handle).

I've been using computers since 1979 and have used a variety of OSes and what always turns me back away from Linux (which I started playing with in 1993 with SLS 1.0) is having to always keep track of what distrobution I have and all the manual work that goes into making apps work. Sure, it's gotten better (metric buttloads better), it's still a pain in the ass.

Before Joe Sixpack is going to embrace Linux there needs to be a serious consolidation of the OS and desktop. There isn't room for two GUIs in the Joe Sixpack userspace. And there isn't room for two (or more) incompatible distrobutions. Joe Sixpack doesn't want "Mr. Ed's Tottaly Boss Linux". Joe Sixpack just wants "Linux, damnit!".

As much as I want to like Linux, I think Mac OS/X is going to kick its teeth in in the desktop space in the long run.

What does that even mean?

[caudron]

What does it mean to say that this will be the Year of the Linux Desktop?

Does it mean that he thinks this is the year it will be a viable choice for the mythical Joe Sixpack or that it will gain popularity with said Mr. Sixpack? I never really understood what that meant, exactly.

I've been using Linux on my desktop exclusively for 2 or 3 years. Does that mean that, for me, 2000 was the Year of the Linux Desktop?

I think without knowing what he means by the statement we can't really evaluate it.

Re:No offense,

[Hatta]

You know, I never had any problem watching a divx, browsing the web, emerging the world, running bittorrent, and burning a cd simultaneously on a 2.4 kernel. The mouse cursor might get a little choppy, but 2.6 has fixed this right up. This is on a relatively moderate system. 1800xp, 512mb ram, kt266a chipset. I never had any problem playing music and web browsing simultaneously on my old p200 either. I don't know what your problem is. Buggy audio drivers? Forget to turn dma on with hdparm?

As for apple, the reason it went with the mach kernel was undoubtedly the more liberal license.

Re:'04 is not the Year of the Desktop for Joe Sixp

[invoke]

... because many important peripherals do not work by default. For example, getting 802.11x is still a pita in linux unless you plan ahead by making certain that your hardware works with it.

Amazingly enough, on my Dell Latitude C610, I have given up - after hours of effort - on ever getting my built-in Orinoco wireless to work under Win XP or Win 2K. It is a dual boot system, and in Linux it was a piece of cake, but even with Dell support files, flashing the bios, everything I could throw at it, it just doesn't work. Of course, it is an end-of-life item, so no support from the actual manufacturer.

While troubleshooting before installing Linux on the laptop, I noted that Knoppix auto-configured the wireless properly. So, I knew it worked, which led to the endless fruitless attempts to get it functioning in Windows.

Even more interesting to me was that when I was searching for tips on getting it working under Windows, I found 10 helpful Linux links to every 1 helpful Windows link. That's the kind of support that Windows can only dream of, and it believe it shows the strong future of Linux and of free software in general.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but

[mcc]

I think the thing is, Linus, despite being the Godfather of Linux, has not been expressing this sort of sentiment. In fact he's for years seemed to mostly be saying "yeah the Desktop isn't really my concern, maybe something will happen."

This would indicate the fact that he's turned around and is now saying "yeah, Linux is probably ready for the desktop" means something, or at least indicates that this opinion comes from careful thought and not just blind promotion. My guess is that he is mostly making this statement now because his part of Linux-- the kernel-- has, with 2.6 and the new preemption and scheduling system, recieved a very considerable amount of improvement in the way it performs in desktop situations.

Re:Time to give up on the Command Line

[Atzanteol]

"Unix on the other hand, demands that its users master a highly symbolic computing environment based primarily on the motif of arbitrary symbols linearly placed on a command line."

That must be why 'books' never took off. They're just too damn difficult to use! Who wants to spend all that time learning 'grammars' and 'spelling' with arbitrary symbols linearly placed on a page.

I know IHBT, but I'm responding anyway. I believe that the best reason for *both* the CLI and GUI to exist is that they represent the difference between the 'language' and 'visual' parts of the brain (respectively).

With the CLI you are 'telling' the computer what to do. As I would tell you where to go and how to get there. Very effective for many tasks.

With a GUI you are presented with options, and you 'point and click' at them. I show you a map in the real world, and ask you to point at where you want to go.

Some people want to 'drag' a file from one folder to another (these people probably point to objects in a store and grunt to get them). Others would rather 'explain' to the computer what files to move, where, and how.

*nix/*BSD have a nice mixture of both. The CLI was first, but the GUI's are catching up. It would be 'wrong' to forsake one for the other. Even Apple kept the *nix command line for Mac OSX!

Re:Time to give up on the Command Line

[gaijin99]

The Linux/Unix community needs to discard the entire command line mentality and start paying serious attention to ease-of-use and interface issues before ordinary people will take seriously their claim that they and their computer environment is somehow actually better than Windows.

Um. No, I think you're completely wrong here. While it is definately true that Linux needs better GUI tools (Mandrake has a very nice, but not yet finished set, as does Redhat) the idea of giving up the command line is preposterous.

I certainly expect to see the day (maybe this year) when the average Linux user never sees a CLI, or even knows what one is. BUT, the CLI will remain an essential and critical part of Linux (and all Unixes) forever due to its inherent utility and power. In Windows the config files are hard to find, written in a format that is only machine readable, and if the GUI doesn't have an option for doing what you want, you're screwed. Compare to Linux where the config files are easy to find, human readable, and if the GUI doesn't have an option for doing what you want it isn't really much of a hassle. We need better GUIs, yes, absolutely. Joe User needs to be able to do pretty much everything from a GUI. But the CLI is indespensable to those who need to do real work, and will not dissapear.

Re:Time to give up on the Command Line

[Rysc]

There is no need to discard the command line. There is a need to improve the GUI. Ideally both should be able to do everything. We CAN have both.

There's no need to Windowsify Linux, there's no need to drop the command line. There's also no need to teach people to use the command line, though that would be my preference if it came to it.

Repeat: The GUI can exist to make remembering those arcane sequences easy in a way that is functionally identical to windows, but whicha ctually leveregaes the power of the command line, and enhances it, thus not alienating the core user base.

Re:Time to give up on the Command Line

[bninja_penguin]

Linux/Unix will start to make strides on the desktop when its users begin to realize how seriously far behind Microsoft they are in the areas that computers are actually used for and where they deliver the most productivity gains.
The only place I see Linux being "behind" Microsoft is in games and Autocad. Programming in Linux (using KDevelop) is faster, more intuitive, less confusing, and better laid out than in Visual Studio. KDE and Gnome are both so similar to Windows in their actions and the way they present themselves, that the only thing I can see end-users running into problems would be when they get "Start" and "K" confused.

However in reality the Windows GUI analogue interface is more powerful because it is easier to learn and therefore easier to manipulate.
I thinnk what you mean here is you've never seen KDE or Gnome. Dragging an icon around the desktop is the same in KDE, Gnome, or Windows, so learning how to do that is even. When you talk about easier to manipulate, you must mean easier to install WebShots, as changing background images or colors are just as easy to change, and for Damn sure that's about all you can manipulate on Windows, without resorting to "advanced" techniques, which the common enduser would find just as difficult to run on Windows as KDE. If you are talking about true manipulation, hands down any desktop environment for Linux is easier to manipulate than Windows GUI, as you have ready access and permission to modify the source code. Try true manipulation on Windows, and see how far you get.

The Linux/Unix community needs to discard the entire command line mentality and start paying serious attention to ease-of-use and interface issues before ordinary people will take seriously their claim that they and their computer environment is somehow actually better than Windows.
Okay, let's take one example, USB thumb drives. The following occurs with a default out of the box install of the OS. I use Mandrake Linux 9.1 and 9.2. I plug a USB drive into a USB port. An Icon appears on my desktop(KDE). I double click the icon, and a window opens, showing me the contents of the USB drive, which I can then do whatever with.
Now, let's take the same USB drive, and plug it into the USB port of a Windows XP system. After a bit, down by the clock, a pop-up window claims new hardware found, and then proceeds to tell you what it is, if it found drivers for it, and that it's ready to use. The pop-up windows then disappears. To access the drive, you must then click on the "Start" button, move the mouse up to the "My Computer" Icon, single-click, then a window appears showing you the contents of "My Computer". You then move the mouse down, below the listed hard drives, below the listed CDROM drives, and finally come to a section where it lists "Removeable Disk" F:, or whatever letter it got assigned. Now you can finally double-click(Why are there someplaces you must single-click, and other places you must double-click? Remember, these are default installs) that Icon, which then shows you the contents of the USB drive.
Tell me please, how the Windows way has better "ease-of-use", and what kind of "interface issue" it is to automatically, on the desktop, provide a single step solution to getting to my USB drive, rather than clicking all over the god-damned place, "drilling down" through several menus, to get to the same information?

Obviously, with my "command-line mentality" I must have missed where all the work to get to the USB drive on Windows is actually easy and intuitive.

What definition of "illusion" and "powerful" are you using? You say, "When Linux/Unix users complete the process of changing their entire approach to computing to fit this 1970's era approach, they find that they can do many things with command line manipulation that can't be done easily or at all with Window's GUI interface."
Which you then claim, "This gives them the illusion that their OS is m