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Sun's new UltraSPARC workstation: the Blade 1500

Roman Hauptmann writes "Here's a review of Sun's newest single-CPU workstation based on the UltraSPARC IIIi processor. According to the review, the system barely performs on the level of a P4 1.8ghz machine yet it sells for several times the price. Despite that, the Blade series still brings value to those who do visualization and imaging."

61 of 516 comments (clear)

  1. For The Think Tank by secondvertigo · · Score: 1, Insightful

    The great selling point of a Sun is that it seemes to maintain a "cool" factor much like Apple computers, not mass produced generic clones like Dell etc... whether that alone or with certain small scale contributions to server innovation is enough is unclear, other than that, I'll be ordering them for the next college term

    Thanks

    I'll post a more descriptive post when I've read up on the specs

    1. Re:For The Think Tank by AKAImBatman · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The great selling point of a Sun is that it seemes to maintain a "cool" factor much like Apple computers, not mass produced generic clones like Dell etc

      No, the great selling point is that you don't have a hardware failure every 6 months like with Dell hardware. Dell hardware costs less, but you're getting what you pay for. Unfortunately, the CPU is actually the least of your worries. It's usually something like a disk controller or memory DIMMs. We had a RAID controller go on a Dell disk array and managed to corrupt the production database. Thankfully, not much had changed since the last backup. Still, that managed to defeat the entire purpose of a RAID array.

    2. Re:For The Think Tank by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful
      For many years Sun's low end machines (such as the Ultra 5, Ultra 10, and the Blade 150) have been all but PCs in name and CPU. Commodity hard drives, display adapters, optical drives, memory, network chips and expansion slots. And the quality of construction has been exceedingly average. There is no longer a difference between low-end Sun workstations and any PC manufactured by Dell, HP, IBM etc, except for price.

      The days of Sun equipment being built like a tank and truly being something different to your run-of-the-mill PC are long gone, except for the high end workstations that cost as much as a car. Sun slaps together commodity junk like everyone else. They just rely on people like you to keep buying it unquestioningly. There's a lot in common between the die-hard Sun zealots and the typical Mac zealot, except Apple has actually produced something finally competitive with PCs at a somewhat reasonable price. Sun still hasn't figured that out.

      Sure, if you're locked into Solaris for day to day workstation tasks and you can't afford one of Sun's 'real' workstations, you have my condolences. Take heart in the fact that it won't be much longer before the vendor of your app ports it to Linux/x86 or Windows (if they haven't already).

      I look forward to the day when Sun has to bite the bullet and release an x86 workstation line just like they've done with their blade servers. Scott McNealy is as big a fuckwit as Larry Ellison and Steve Jobs could ever hope to be. Seeing him stand up there at the next Sun keynote and admit defeat to the 'clones' will be supremely satisfying.

    3. Re:For The Think Tank by grahamlee · · Score: 5, Insightful
      The great selling point of a Sun is that it seemes to maintain a "cool" factor much like Apple computers

      Looking around at either the stack of Ultras and SPARCStations by my right foot, or the Enterprise server and SunRays over thattaway, it's clear to me that the Sun selling point is not 'coolness' or prestige. You buy a Sun to get a UNIX system that's:

      • Built like a tank
      • Got full hardware support (i.e., it breaks, next day there's a new one on your desk) for five years
      • Got full software support for five years
      • Running the most rock-steady UNIX system around
      • Did I mention the rather good support?

      If all that is needed is a compute workstation on which some variety of free UNIX or Linux will run, then no the Sun workstation is not the most cost-effective option. However, you don't just buy a computer from Sun, you tend to get a full five-year support package as well. BTW on the subject of free UNIXen, interesting to note that for education, and possibly other purposes, the SOlaris source code is sometimes available :-).

      Oh and Sun, FFS stop calling your workstations "blades" would you?

  2. Brings value? by PierceLabs · · Score: 0, Insightful

    How can it bring value to any market when you can do the job on a less expensive piece of hardware?

    1. Re:Brings value? by repetty · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Are you familiar with the applications that are certified to run on Sun workstations? Not all have been ported to Linux.

      --Richard

    2. Re:Brings value? by thesupraman · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Not that I'm saying that the machine would be my choice, but..

      This machine is 64bit moron! UltraSPARC has been 64bit for quite some time now.. It's software is all 64bit, it has a true 64bit OS.

      Not of course that that makes much difference to anything, as there are very few applications that require 64bit addressing as yet. Just about every processor current can move data in at least 64bit chunks.. often 128bit.

      Perhaps, next time, take the effort to even open the page you are going to comment on and have a quick glance - it can do wonders!

    3. Re:Brings value? by thammoud · · Score: 2, Insightful

      It's the software baby. Sun can not make the same claim.

    4. Re:Brings value? by beakburke · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I hardly think your dell with it's one 3.06 GHz P4 is going to be faster than the dual 1.8GHz mac. Did the dell have a 180GB HD? You did get the RAM right though. You have to check more than just the CPU speed and the amount of RAM. Plus you forget that Apple includes much better software out of box than what Dell gives you. Better price that out again.

      --
      ----- Question authority, but not ours. Hate the man, but we're not him.
    5. Re:Brings value? by Mr.+Darl+McBride · · Score: 3, Insightful
      Are you familiar with the applications that are certified to run on Sun workstations? Not all have been ported to Linux.
      Considering the cost of those applications and the relative ease of porting to Linux, I'm sure the sellers would be more than happy to do the port if the customer demanded it.

      That said, when you're dealing with a $500k/seat scientific visualization package, there's a good chance you aren't worried about another $4k for the box it runs on.

    6. Re:Brings value? by Arae · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I disagree; I would say Solaris is the biggest reason why Sun have loyal customers.

    7. Re:Brings value? by Zeinfeld · · Score: 5, Insightful
      How can Apple sell hardware? I mean, how could they possibly sell a single Mac? /me types away on my PowerMac G5

      It is not the price issue, clearly doing the job is not the same as doing the job well, doing it quickly or doing it easily.

      Linux is not on a par with the very best commercial O/S in terms of smooth integration. Which does not matter for most nerd types, Linux is good enough and the benefits of being able to fix it when it is broken is often a bigger advantage.

      But Apple is certainly at least as good as Sun at providing a smooth integrated O/S that just works. It is a long time since I have used a Sun machine, when I did back in 1995 their integration was pathetic, they had all this multimedia gubbins and none of the drivers worked. It was worth paying the premium for Dec hardware.

      For at least five years Intel boxes have been more than sufficient for most needs and Linux has looked at least as good as Solaris so why pay five times the price?

      Apple hardware fetches a premium, but not a huge premium. It makes a lot of sense if you want a Unix machine, you get a product that is well integrated, things work as you expect them to. That is worth real money.

      The only reason people buy Sun is that there is quite a bit of enterprise software that only runs on Sun or Windows NT.

      --
      Looking for an Information Security student project suggestion?
      Try http://dotcrimeManifesto.com/
    8. Re:Brings value? by RevRa · · Score: 5, Insightful

      No kidding. A "review" written by a person who has no clue about the hardware or software he's reviewing.

      He tried to install Gentoo and *bsd on it. If I were reviewing a Chevy and wanted to put a Honda engine in it for my review, then bitched because it wouldn't work, wouldn't I look like some sort of moron?

      Solaris is an excellent operating system in terms of stability, reliability, and professional support, but you'll find it quite difficult to set up and maintain it on your own and it can be difficult to find much software for it.

      What the hell is that supposed to mean? I can find a ton of software for Solaris, and I personally find it easy as pie to set up. (Of course I've been working with Solaris for about 8 years now.) Installing GIMP? WTF?

      Solaris is not anything like GNU/Linux or even the *BSDs

      Yea no kidding pal, thanks for the big revelation. Solaris/SunOS has been around longer and they aren't the same operating system.

      there is no large, friendly, easily accessible community like there is for the Free Unix projects.

      Have you lost your freakin' mind? How about sunfreeware.com? comp.os.solaris? #solaris on ANY of the IRC networks? Not to mention the fact that a great many of the people who hang out in the "free unix projects" community are also Solaris nerds.

      Solaris in its current form can never be Free Software or even open-source because of all of the proprietary code that it contains.

      No shit Dick Tracy. This just makes me want to smack him. Is this a review of Sun's Solaris license? Or is this supposed to be a rewview of a piece of hardware?

      you can't use Solaris 8 in the design, construction, operation or maintenance of a nuclear facility (so if you can't use a top-tier OS like Solaris, what DO nuclear designers, engineers and sysadmins use to run their computers? Windows 95?).

      Really? Interesting that GE Power Systems uses it. (They design nuclear stuff all the time.) NASA uses it to launch rockets, and hey, Java is helping run the Mars rover Spirit.

      What this clause means is that a nuclear power facility is supposed to go through special channels to get software and operating systems certified for use in their facility. The version of Solaris you have is not certified for such use. (Yes, there are different versions for different applications.)

      Measuring performance was a very difficult task because of the amount of reading, research, and configuration that had to go into Solaris 8 to get it to compile benchmark programs.

      Which should be read as, "I didn't know what the hell I was doing and have no idea how to review a piece of hardware so I didn't really do anything other than try to customize my desktop and then install Linux and *bsd on it."

      This is no desktop system. It may look like one, it may in some ways act like one, but make no mistake: this is a workhorse, not a pony or a racehorse.

      Well, you're partly right. When you compare it with like systems, it keeps perfect pace with the pack and I'm sure outperforms many of them. But it is a workhorse. Not to be compared with Apples and Intel systems. Sun hardware and the Solaris OS are not designed to be pretty, they're designed to be bulletproof. They might not get you there the fastest, and they may not be pretty, but you'll get where you need to go quickly, efficiently, and SAFELY.

      I think he should have just typed, "Well, it isn't my Linux desktop, so, you know, it sucks."

      --
      - Kate
      "DNA is life. The rest is just translation."
  3. CPU by Linthos · · Score: 1, Insightful

    How many more SPARC processors will Sun release? Or systems designed around them? I have read many times that it is in their best interests to cut in R&D on their own and use other bases, to help them focus on designing the overall system...

  4. Performace by vpscolo · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Comparing Sun with x86 is a bit apples and oranges. Maybe on sheer performance it will be beaten by x86 however for crunching big data sets the UltraSparc is just more effecient. Also some software only runs on Solaris so for that this box is good. However I did wonder why it came with Solaris 8 rather than something newer Rus

    1. Re:Performace by Mod+Me+God · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I wonder that also, but a choice quote:

      I really wanted to test the graphics capabilities of this machine, but the program just wouldn't compile properly. I spent days searching Google, reading forums, and sifting through mailing lists looking for answers. I made some progress, but after delaying this story for more than a week I decided it was time to publish it one way or the other.

      Why not just ask Sun, they designed it! The reviewer may not have the gold-with-bells-and-whistles support contract (not the Solaris expertise most admins/users would have, seemingly), but for a sneak peak review of a system I'm sure they would have been happy to help out.

      Likewise ...measuring performance was a very difficult task because of the amount of reading, research, and configuration that had to go into Solaris 8 to get it to compile benchmark programs.. Now I'm sure Sun had not had a wet dream one day and come up with a whole new processor without coming up with a way to test it. Why not ask them, I'm sure they would oblige, and if not flame them in the review? Better that than search on newsgrops for a computer only you have.

      This 'review' was an example of utterly incompetant analysis and journalism.

      --
      --

      FreeNET user? Comfortable with the adverse selection?
    2. Re:Performace by colins · · Score: 4, Insightful

      +5 Insightful? Please.

      "crunching big data sets" means what? Unless your application needs to stuff >4GB of data into RAM at once, a decent Xeon will outperform the UltraSparc III/IIIi by an order of magnitude.

      We've switched from UltraSparcs to x86 servers for our reservoir simulations (Oil&Gas), and we're looking to switch to x86 workstations as soon as our vendors all line up behind the same RedHat release.

      We'll keep a couple of Sun boxes around for the rare cases where we really need 64bit (until Opteron is supported by our vendors), but even with the huge datasets with deal with (offshore seismic projects) these instances are rare.

      colins

    3. Re:Performace by fdawg · · Score: 2, Insightful

      "If by "efficient" you mean "more instructions per clock" than yes, UltraSPARC is more efficient."

      SUN use RISC (Reduced Instruction Set Computer) Processors.

      x86 (which is really just the 386 instruction set with extensions...which is really just the 8086 instruction set with some changes) is a CISC ( Complex Instruction Set Computer).

      Obviously a SUN would require more instructions per cycle (not necessarily clock) to do the same task. Efficeincy can not be compared by architecture, but by the amount of time it takes to complete said tasks. In that case, "x86" (I really hate that term, its misleading) is the winner...until you SMP them. SUN then wins hands down.

      Also insane memory bandwidth is required when 6 fetch operations are required on a RISC environment when the same operation can be done in 2 on a CISC.

      It should be noted that the "high quality SCSI drives" are still rebranded Seagates.

  5. Article w/o Perspective by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful
    From the article:
    The SunPCI III is the most innovative piece of computer hardware I have ever seen. Put simply, it's a small AMD-based computer built into a single PCI card

    What's so innovative about that? Apple had intel cpu's on pci card for the original powermacs and Sun has had similar cards for awhile.

  6. 64 bit dominance by damacer · · Score: 4, Insightful

    From the article:

    "The proprietary 64-bit workstation market is dominated by Sun Microsystems, which sells more 64-bit machines than any other company -- their market share is over 60%."

    I wonder how long this market domninance is going to last now that commodity hardware is going 64. (e.g. a 64-bit laptop for $1,549)

  7. Stop. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Stop thinking of computers in terms of speed. Think more of what works for the job. Sun servers can handle far more RAM then Intel machines making them perfect for large databases. They can handle more CPUs then Intel machines, perfect for when clustering isn't an option.

    Just because this workstation has less gigahertz then another doesn't mean it's wrong for everything. Does Grandma need it? No, she'll be fine with an Intel or an AMD.

  8. Is this a joke? by cervo · · Score: 1, Insightful

    although it's quite long in the tooth at this point and it isn't even close to the same level of performance that you'd get from a comparably priced AMD64 machine -- or even a 32-bit Intel-based P4 or Xeon computer......It can't touch high-end 32-bit machines in terms of raw performance
    And the funniest part of the whole article:
    Sun hopes to make it their new bestseller

    So you provide a machine with inferior performance that doesn't even support Linux/FreeBSD/The latest version of YOUR OWN Solaris Operating System and you hope it will become a best seller? Are the execs at Sun smoking crack? Sun has done some cool stuff, but maybe it is time to sell some of their stock....

    1. Re:Is this a joke? by MrPerfekt · · Score: 2, Insightful

      So you provide a machine with inferior performance that doesn't even support Linux/FreeBSD/The latest version of YOUR OWN Solaris Operating System

      Newsflash genius, FreeBSD supports Sparc, few Linux's and Sol 9 (I don't know where you got that Sol 9 didn't support an UltraSparc IIIi). They hope it to become their best-seller to replace their low-end and aging Ultra line.

      If you need more help, please see my related post.

      --
      I just wasted your mod points! HA!
  9. Simplicity. by Moderation+abuser · · Score: 2, Insightful

    You already have a network of Sun machines but want something faster and cheaper. No additional complexity. If you start introducing different platforms you begin dividing and conquering the skills and time of your IT staff.

    In the same vein, a Windows monoculture would be a great idea if it wasn't for all the architectural and implementational disadvantages.

    --
    Government of the people, by corporate executives, for corporate profits.
  10. Sun and Slashdot, like oil and water... by MrPerfekt · · Score: 5, Insightful

    It's never a suprised that people on slashdot just don't get Sun equipment. Much like Apple, companies (I'd wager extremely few people buy Sun's for personal everyday use) that buy these boxes are buying them for the OS and rarely for the groundbreaking hardware.

    They like the support that Sun provides with thier OS and how it's been grown to be rock solid. Yada, yada, yada. Cut to the posts here by people that probably have never seen a Sun box let alone owned/used one and I'm not shocked.

    Disclaimer: This is not a troll. ;)

    --
    I just wasted your mod points! HA!
    1. Re:Sun and Slashdot, like oil and water... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      You hit the nail on the head.

      These are also the same people who enjoy particpating in system administration discussions when their system administration experience only stems from the 4 boxes they have at home.

      Here on Slashdot, 90% of people at any given time are just armchair quarterbacks.

    2. Re:Sun and Slashdot, like oil and water... by lewp · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Sun's support is certainly impressive, especially if you're not used to it. And their hardware/software is impressive from a reliability standpoint.

      But come on. This is a workstation. As long as it can stay up for a day at a time it's reliable enough, and it's cheaper to just keep a spare or five in the closet than to pay for the kind of support that people think of when they think Sun. Beyond the basic reliability that anything better than Windows 98 can provide, raw performance and price are going to be the deciding factors for this kind of system. Sun just can't play with the big PC manufacturers in both areas at once.

      If this were a big Sun Fire box, you'd have a point. As it stands, Slashdotters are probably this machine's best hope: geeks with some disposable income who want a neat toy. After all, you bought a Blade 150, didn't you?

      --
      Game... blouses.
    3. Re:Sun and Slashdot, like oil and water... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      FWIW, I've used lots of Sun hardware. Hell, I personally own [...goes to count...] 9 Sun boxes ranging all the way from a 2/50 to a couple relatively modern ultrasparc machines. Several of them have been my primary home machines at various points in time, others I just picked up for coolness value. Basically, I'm as close to a "Sun fan boy" as they come.

      However, I have to agree with the "trolls" - sparc is finished.

      I deal with a mix of both SPARC and x86 in my day job doing rather high performance computing - I need every cycle I can get. For the last year or two it's hard to justify even compiling for sparc boxes anymore. We have racks of dual-~3Ghz P4 boxes that cost a couple grand each; how is ultrasparc going to compete with that?

      My instruction mix is integer-heavy, I'm sure if it was more FP then it wouldn't be so slanted but from what I've seen even the FP edge has slipped away.

      About the only real advantages ultrasparc still has over x86 is the 64-bit memory addressing and SMP scalability. It looks like both of the contenders for the 64-bit x86 replacement (ia64 and x86-64, of course) are going to be very SMP capable (ia64 is in huge SGI boxes today; AMD sounds like they're on the ball too) I think it makes a lot of sense how Sun has been mopving towards x86-64+linux (presumably as a total ultrasparc+solaris replacement, but they won't admit that publically yet)

      The only architectures that matter from a non-embedded performance standpoint now are ia32,ia64,x86-64, and ppc64.

    4. Re:Sun and Slashdot, like oil and water... by ajagci · · Score: 2, Insightful

      It's never a suprised that people on slashdot just don't get Sun equipment.

      I used to buy Sun machines by the dozens--back when they gave me good bang-for-the-buck and when they were the best of the UNIX workstation bunch (of course, even back then, it was GNU software that made Solaris tolerable). Today, PCs give me more bang-for-the-buck and Linux and BSD have become far better operating systems, so there is no reason to like or advocate Sun workstations anymore.

      Much like Apple, companies (I'd wager extremely few people buy Sun's for personal everyday use) that buy these boxes are buying them for the OS and rarely for the groundbreaking hardware.

      Sure: they buy them for the OS. But that's not because there is anything particularly great about Solaris, it's because they want backwards compatibility.

      Note that people used to use Sun workstations for personal everyday use, back when they were reasonably priced, performed well, and still represented the state-of-the-art in UNIX-like desktop systems. No more, however.

      I seriously doubt that there are many businesses who switch to Solaris--Sun is living off repeat business now. Almost anybody who has a choice for a new project starts off with Linux, BSD, or NT these days.

  11. 90%? by rebelcool · · Score: 2, Insightful

    More like 99%.. for supposed nerds, you'd think more of them would have more of a clue about the various facets of computing.

    --

    -

  12. My School's Unix lab by ImTwoSlick · · Score: 1, Insightful
    has about 20 Blade machines, and 8 Dell P4 machines running Red Hat Linux. Guess which ones get used?

    OK, I'll spoil it. The blades NEVER get used. They are a complete waste of money and space. Who want's to use their ancient desktop, when you can do most anything on a box with KDE, OpenOffice, and the most popular development tools?

    1. Re:My School's Unix lab by PhilipPeake · · Score: 2, Insightful

      So why don't you use the Gnome desktop that comes as standard (if you choose to enable it) with Sun these days, and use either OpenOffice or Suns own version of that (which I believe also comes with the boxes these days?

  13. He doesn't get it... by PhunkySchtuff · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The reviewer just doesn't get it. The reason you get a machine like this is so that you can run the same software, unchanged, on your big 32 or 64 CPU fridge-sized machine in the back room as you can on your desktop workstation. You run the same OS, the same binaries, use the same dev tools and you just know it will work. If it doesn't work, someone from Sun will be around to fix it, quickly.
    As for going on about the "Restrictive" license surrounding Solaris. For fuck's sake, it's FREE (as in beer) to download and use - for Sparc and Intel.
    And then there are automatic software updates that you have to accept? WTF? is he on drugs?
    Sun have recommended patch clusters (AKA Service Packs) and individual patches that you are free to download and install as you choose. There's nothing compulsory about them.
    Oh, and there's no.... RESET BUTTON!
    I dunno about anyone else who uses Solaris out there, but I've _never_ seen a Sun machine lock up hard, such that a Reset Button would have been the solution...
    Stick to reviewing your latest 0verclocked AMD with peltier and watercooling and neon casemods...
    - k

  14. Re:80GB Seagate drive? by Brandybuck · · Score: 3, Insightful

    That's local storage. Think about where this is going to be used.

    --
    Don't blame me, I didn't vote for either of them!
  15. Re: Sun trying to compete with AMD/Intel desktops? by C10H14N2 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    There are a couple reasons behind SUN's success in research that have nothing to do with individual price/performance.

    First, just look at the name. SUN=Stanford University Network. Mmmkay. Check.

    Second, look at their pricing structure. You can fill an entire academic division with SUN equipment for what I spent outfitting my home office with a modestly huge stack of x86 boxes. They have DEEP discounts for academic research.

    Third, their servers are huge and if you can bundle up a stack or workstations and thin clients with your PO for your servers and have an uniform operating environment are you going to run and buy a stack of DELLS and then try to shoehorn in some slapjob of an authentication system? Uhm, no.

    Last, if you spent years in academic research and then shuffle off to whore yourself off to corporate IT, who are you going to call?

    It's precisely the same marketing strategy MS and Apple have been using since day one to get the general user on their platforms. No mystery here.

  16. Re:Sun Blade 2000 - 2x UltraSPARC III+ by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    The Sun Blade computed at nearly 3X the speed of the Pentium 4.

    ----

    If it rans three times faster what's the problem? Also, are you sure you should be the one writing these computational programs? I don't know how you could with a statement like "due to FP instruction sets not being available". What program are you in?

  17. The reviewer is missing the point by jdigital · · Score: 5, Insightful
    Disclaimer: I was a sun nut. I have moved to Linux/x86 as it is cheaper; so take everything with a grain of salt. However, it is quite clear that most of the complaints raised in the article stem from "i'm not used to solaris/sun, therefore its not good", rather than any intrinsic complaints.
    That means that you can have Windows XP Pro running in a window in CDE (the standard UNIX desktop environment) or on a separate monitor that can be connected to the SunPCI card itself. This is not a software emulator -- it's actually Windows XP running on the SunPCI through Solaris -- so there is no measurable loss in performance while using the SunPCI.

    1. SunPCI cards have been around for a while
    2. Apple used to do this
    3. In the late 80's I had a 8088 ISA daughterboard which sat inside my 8086.
    4. There is a performance loss. On my Ultra workstation I ran a development database, and used the SunPCI for Outlook and other things. The SunPCI card maps 'C:' to a file sitting in your home directory. There is contention for the drive. Addition of another drive fixes this.

    The keyboard and mouse (which add $25 to the cost of the machine) can best be described as "painful." Extremely painful.

    1. Keyboards are a pretty personal issue. Without saying what he/she felt was wrong, most people will not know whether their experience will be similar.
    2. From my experience with sun keyboards from IPX's to Ultra's, I've found them quite to my liking.
    3. The complaints about the size of the keyboard and the redundant keys just illustrates a lack of knowledge of how useful they can be.

    Solaris is an excellent operating system in terms of stability, reliability, and professional support, but you'll find it quite difficult to set up and maintain it on your own and it can be difficult to find much software for it.

    1. sunfreeware.com
    2. This guy is contradicting himself. He states in the opening line that there is excellent professional support, but later complains that there is no large friendly support community. In my experience, I've only ever needed to contact Sun when the sh*t has hit the fan. Most of my support came from many of the useful sun related lists and web pages. GIYF (google is your friend)
    3. ...plan on spending some time every now and then fooling with installing various programs and editing files just so you can get Linux binary compatibility or even just install a simple program like The GIMP.... Um, download required libraries or packages, build/install. Compile GIMP, run GIMP. Sounds pretty familiar to the Linux experience to me. What crack was he on with "Linux binary compatibility...".

    Solaris in its current form can never be Free Software or even open-source because of all of the proprietary code that it contains.

    1. I have the Solaris 8 Intel and SPARC source CD's sitting right here. They were available to purchase for around $40 from sun.com a year back or so. This offer was open to everyone. I'm just a hobbyist dude, not a governmental organisation, eductaional institution -- i.e., I certainly stand no chance in hell of getting the Windows XP source code.
    2. The entire section on Licencing is just meaningless crap.
    The conclusion gets it spot on:
    It serves unique purposes in many important industries, in niches that IA32 (x86) or Apple PPC systems cannot support due to software and architectural constraints, therefore it cannot truly be compared with such systems. If it stands up to other machines in its class is a determination that I have yet to make...
    --
    :wq ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
  18. Worthless article by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    I lost any faith in this guys capability to do a serious review when I noticed he was using a Java based SpecInt benchmarking tool. The Spec scores suck on just about any risc cpu. Take a look and you will see according to spec scores a sunblade 150 wastes a 4 way IBM P-Series machine.
    So not only is the benchmark worthless he benchmarked Java's performance.
    This machine is meant to replace all of the 7-8 year old Ultra 5's and 10's still in production, not play quake 3 or whatever the latest is out there.

  19. Hammers and Screwdrivers by Weaselmancer · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I'd second the idea that the reviewer doesn't entirely understand the target audience for this machine.

    The article also includes a link to the product's PDF datasheet. Please read before you bash.

    But just in case you don't feel like skimming through the PDF, the relevant points seem to be that it:

    • Is meant to run Solaris
    • Is compatible with Sun's XVR graphics accelerators
    • Has built-in 10/100/1000 ethernet capability

    To me, this looks like a box intended to do hugely accelerated 3D graphics in a unixish environment. That's it's niche. I'd bet it's 3D rendering performance is nothing short of stunning.

    Remember - big companies have marketing departments, entire sections of the building dedicated to answering the question "what should we charge for it?" For someone who needs a machine like this I'll bet that it's worth every penny.

    Saying that it sucks because it's dhrystone score is as low as a box 1/5th it's cost is like complaining that a hammer makes a lousy screwdriver. You're not using the tool for its intended job.

    Weaselmancer

    --
    Weaselmancer
    rediculous.
  20. how is SPARC proprietary? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I never could figure out how (Ultra)SPARC was considered proprietary. You can license the specs for it at http://www.sparc.com/

    Heck, Fuji did an independent-from-Sun implementation of the UltraSPARC V processor.

    I would say that Intel and AMD are more proprietary than SPARC. Or is there some place I can license the 'code' to the Pentium 4 that I don't know about?

    Heck, Suns even use PCI now (previous Suns used to use SBUS).

  21. Sun hardware by saunabad · · Score: 3, Insightful

    From the article: The keyboard and mouse (which add $25 to the cost of the machine) can best be described as "painful." Extremely painful. I couldn't use them for more than five minutes without my wrists hurting, and it is impossible for me to imagine anyone using these 80s-era throwbacks

    I like this. Sun peripherals have always been able to give me the feeling that says "Listen punk, these machines are not made for fun, they are made for working. If this would be a pleasant experience, it wouldn't count as working, would it?"

  22. Re:why is it pre-installed with solaris 8? by 0racle · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Take a closer look at the revision number of the Solaris 8 that ships on this system, its the Hardware revision 5/03, (May/2003) Its been updated, and support made specifically for Solaris 8 for this machine, its about as 'old' as Solaris 9 is.

    I havent used , I've only had the oppertuity to use 8 on intel, and have a older sparc here and will install 8 on it when I set it up, either way, 8 is not old (useless), and I would assume there is less OS overhead on the system being it is a little older (age) then 9 has. But again, thats only an assumption.

    --
    "I use a Mac because I'm just better than you are."
  23. Sun is about service by ducomputergeek · · Score: 3, Insightful
    Enterprise level datacenters...raise their hand! If your running a SUN certified program and you upgrade and it no longer works, SUN will send someone to toubleshoot and fix it. How many other companies garuntee that? Does Red Hat? Novell? Microsoft? Um....that would be a big fat no. Too many companies, that level support is critical because the loss of say an ERP or even CRM system could mean the loss of thousands if not hundreds of the thousands of dollars.

    Trust me, you can spend 5x's as much trouble shooting old software on new systems then it would have cost for "equal" performance if you had spent 3x's as much on the hardware in the first place...

    --
    "The problem with socialism is eventually you run out of other people's money" - Thatcher.
  24. Disappointed Sun Guy by ChaosMt · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Look, I'm a long time solaris admin and I actually like to run most of my home systems on sun hardware with openbsd (can't wait to try freebsd soon; linux just doesn't work right on it yet). I love to remote console in. In the end, I have to agree with some of the author's disappointment.

    First, it should be noted, you're a newbie or sucker if you're paying the retail price listed on the web site. Start your negotionations for the price by knocking of 1/3rd. This applys more for bigger systems, but it's close for small ones too. About support, skip it if this is your only system. I've found their warrenty support just fine and very helpful. However, if you're a medium sized shop, consider getting the platinum support. I've called all the big boys under super-boffo support accounts. HP has trouble just picking up the phone. IBM: we'll call you back when we found someone whom we think is who you want. Cisco: we sell that? Sun: two rings, serial number, knowledgable person opens case and starts working on it while getting [storage|OS|kernel|hardware|etc] expert on the phone, and in the mean time, the field engineer has already contacted to courier to get the new hardware there in under and hour, at three in the morning. I'm not exagerating either. Yes, this level is support is DAMN expensive, but it's comparatively cheaper than their competitors. The difference is that when you buy sun's deluxe support, they really mean it. For every other vendor, it's the same support faster.

    Second, I am tired of them selling low quality workstations to their loyal users. The blade150 is flimsy and flakey; especially to those who remember the sparc2s. They were like armored pizze boxes! This new blade just looks like more of the same. The 150 has no normal way to play cds (for example). Why, oh WHY did you go with USB ports if you don't fully want to suport usb devices. The authors right about the keyboard and mouse quality. Well, it's not THAT bad - I consider the apple ones worse. But for the price, it should be much much better. Or better yet, fully support standard keyboards and mice. Map the sun keys to something else. Help bolthole.com make the mouse wheel work better. I just got the lowest end hp-ux workstation. It comes with dual scsi, and it could be considered similarly priced. IDE has always been chinzy. Serial ata would have been a great comprimse. My next work station? Mac.

    Third, you're not SGI, and stop making your hardware look like it. Get over it. Frankly, pixar and other grapics outlets aren't in love with you anymore. Let it go. Move on. All the bioinfomatics I talk to are going apple.

    Forth, clean up your packages, and MAKE PATCHING WORK RIGHT!!! HP and AIX - stick in a cd, reboot. BSD - painless. MS - automated. Even linux is better. Anyone running a large installation sun shop will tell you; sun patching sucks. Take a clue from bsd, linux or aix or even MS; make your systems easy to set up and administer, and you gain the respect and approval of the geeks who sign off on the tech side of the decision. I've lost trust and trust my solutions to patching much better than live update (at this point).

    Last, what the hell is it with your cheap ass sales people. Is the sun logo so expensive that you can't afford to give out tshirts, cups and other good will crap to your biggest customers. Pizza?!? WTF! HP gave the whole department some of the best vendor shirts we've ever had. IBM gets us drinks and cigars. EMC tooks us to the matrix the day BEFORE it opened. I can go on and on. Instead, as one of your biggest clients in the region we get bad pizza and bad patches?!?

    Ok... I got it out of my system. Thank for that.

  25. Software is real cost and reliability the priority by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I think many responses to this review have missed the point of this system. This is NOT a machine intended for users running benchmarks that demonstrate how much slower it is compared to a similarly priced x86 machine. These machines are targetted at the EDA/CAD/CAM/visualisation clients that spend much more money on Software Licenses than they do on Hardware.

    So, what do you think the priorities of these customers are? Performance? Maybe, but only compared to other machines that offer a similar level of *RELIABILITY*.

    This topic of reliability never gets touched in the article, but is probably the most important aspect of this machine.

    Ask yourself, if you have 20 2-year software licenses that cost $750,000 total, will you skimp on the reliability of the hardware running that software? The extra cash is paid out to protect that large investment in software.

    Are these machines more reliable than comparable (and less expensive) x86 systems? I wouldn't know, and the article makes no mention of this. I'd venture to guess that a company like SUN with a substantial R&D budget produces a better verified and more reliable system than a home built win-x86 system that scores 23000 on 3Dmark2001 (sometimes) and runs circles around that new SUN POS (assuming no crash to desktop or worse).

    Companies that sell UNIX systems (IBM, SUN, HP, SGI) see hardware as a vehicle for selling a software stack and services. And if the software isn't their own, then the selling point is the reliability of the underlying hardware system.

    To shrug off this system based solely on performance is to ignore the most important aspect of this system and others like it: RELIABILITY.

  26. Re:why is it pre-installed with solaris 8? by nkrgovic · · Score: 5, Insightful
    Because there is no Solaris 9 port for either this, or the Blade 2500 workstation yet! It's supposed to be out around April.

    Now, to performance:

    On both workstations you can get XVR-600 which is lightning fast and extra high quality. It's a Wildcat 4 chip (3D Labs) with 10-bit pixel precision and dedicated texture ram. The least expensive card like this for the PC is around $1K5 (Wildcat 4 7110) Also you can't get Linux drivers for it yet.

    As for the P4/1.8GHz story try this for a test : Install MySQL on your linux PC and create a database with a table of about 5-6GB. Run alter table on it. Wait for it CRUMBLE TO DUST as it hits past 2GBs. Then get a Sun.

    Opteron might be the only challenger to sparc (which is why Sun is pushing for opteron-based servers), but it's main faults are :

    Still has no real applications ported to it.

    Can't scale beyond 8-cpu's. If you don't need that - well... Plenty people do - in servers at least. This isn't a workstation issue, but is a server one.

    Integrated memory controllers are a bitch on multi-cpu systems if you need one cpu to access all memory, while the other is still doing something. This is the main reason why sun still sells Blade 2000, now that Blade 2500 has hit the market.

    As for true workstation features check out Blade 2000 (2 cpu's, UPA graphics, FC-AL disks), or Blade 2500 (2 cpu's, scsi disks). Both more expensive (especially Blade 2000 which uses Ultra III CPU's without integrated memory controllers, but with a real crossbar switch instead), but they are still A LOT less expensive than their SGI or IBM counterparts. Sun isn't competing with the PC's with this WS, it's just for the people who need a cheap ws for home, remote work or something like that. As the author of the article puts it "make no mistake: this is a workhorse, not a pony or a racehorse"

  27. Experiences with Sun's blade by lonesometrainer · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Ok, so I thought when J2EE stuff is your everyday work, some Solaris know-how would be nice. Bought a Sun Blade 100.

    Well, Solaris was interesting software at least. The Sun Blade was nicely documented and stuff, but it was awfully slow and in fact the cheapest-built hardware I've ever put my hands on. Even those supermarkt-pcs were alot more silent and felt more robust.

    And that machine cost ~ $1500 when I bought it. Incredible.

    Sun servers were a completely opposite experience for me, built for eternity, great support.

    Never, ever again Sun on the desktop.

  28. Ignorant masses at slashdot. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Every some troll posts an article like this, the slashdot ignorati line up to chat about how fast their wintel/lentel machines are in comparison.

    Well your intel box runs exactly 0 binary applications that require this OS and arcitecture. That's a significant loss in MIPS/clockspeed/whatever...they just won't run on your intel box.

    If some high end engineer/engineering group has special apps, developed and massaged over decades, that do something that simply must be done and done fast and with a minimum of fuss, $5000 is typically nothing for that person/group.

    Demanding a port to wintel/lintel OTOH could be nightmarish--huge cost, all new set of bugs, etc.

  29. Re:80GB Seagate drive? by ameoba · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The 8MB version of the drive costs, at most, $10 more than the 2MB drive. Considering the performance boost you'd get from such a small expenditure, why cut corners there?

    --
    my sig's at the bottom of the page.
  30. Re:Sun Blade 2000 - 2x UltraSPARC III+ by SoupIsGood+Food · · Score: 3, Insightful

    It's a matter of matching the software to the hardware. If you run commodity software designed for commodity systems, you're going to get better results from the dual x86 box. If you run a software environment designed for Solaris and UltraSPARCIII, you're going to see significant speed advantages... and you're already seeing a 3x speed bump in your application on a platform it's not optimized for.

    Still, if that's not enough extra oomph, look into Fujitsu's SPARC clones. They can outpace Itanium and Alpha systems, and are less money than Sun-branded boxes. Sun's contracted with Fujitsu for future SPARC development, so the performance gap will be widening. The systems will still be ludicrously expensive. Whether the investment in bigger iron will be worth it depends on how parallelizable your code is. Sometimes two big CPUs trump a bunch of teensy ones (Amdahl's law and all that)... sometimes a grid application running on a hundred different systems in the office as a screen saver will do the trick.

    SoupIsGood Food

  31. Sun w/o Bill Joy by ch-chuck · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Isn't that like Atari w/o Noland Bushnell, Apple w/o Steve Jobs, SGI w/o Jim Clark...

    --
    try { do() || do_not(); } catch (JediException err) { yoda(err); }
  32. Who's buying these things? by kanly · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I take care of Sun kit at work, and I can't possibly imagine why anybody is buying these. The place where sun sets themselves apart is in their large machines - dozens of CPUs, piles and piles of SCSI channels, etc. If you're buying high-end sun stuff, you should see if you can do better by clustering cheaper boxes, but sometimes you can't, and the big huge behemoths are a reasonable choice.

    If you're buying SunBlades, though, you need to visit your psychiatrist and have him help you with your white-box phobia. $5k will get you an Opteron box that will run rings around this thing all day long.

  33. Price is what you will pay.... by op00to · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Anyone who pays full price for any Sun gear is getting ripped off! The price on these boxes are always negotiable. You'd be surprised how cost competitive Sun solutions can be when you start talking business with the sales guy.

    Needless to say, being a huge public university helps too.

  34. Re:yes, that was a troll. by MrPerfekt · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Sun has not made cutting edge hardware?

    Quite frankly in recent years in the workstation market, no, no they haven't. They switched to PCI/IDE years ago for workstations. A majority of the Ultra series was PCI and not S/bus. The current Blades are more powerful than Ultra boxes. Sun is just behind the development curve of x86 (and PowerPC even for that matter) and they don't look to catch up anytime soon. Anyway, I can't really tell if you're defending old Sun hardware and blasting the new or if you're just trying to tear down my statement.

    Would you please enlighten me?

    Yes, I would.

    I've got no idea why someone would want one of these blades. If you have software that has not been ported over to GNU, you could just use x86 Solaris or purchase a real Sun used.

    That is a hugely humorous statement. You wouldn't. Companies that have applications that run on Sparc like having workstations of the same architecture for debuging purposes among others. And if you think that all applications _should_ be ported over to a GNU system, you should have your head examined as that's a very closed way of thinking. Many corporations don't see a need to port their (in many cases) proprietary software from something that already works just fine. And the last part of that statement, x86 Solaris is a joke and not compatible with binaries from Sparc Solaris (obviously) which doesn't help at all when debugging and/or using commercial applications. But the kicker, "purchase a real Sun used", um, these are real Sun's.. they even have the magical logo. Did you realize that a used Sun which I'm assuming you're going for an S/Bus Ultra with an UltraSparc IIe is dog slow compared to the UltraSparc III in that Blade. If you're so worried about disk performance, just put a SCSI PCI card and disk in it and shut up.

    If Sun's goal is to comoditize thier hardware, they need to ditch the AMD windoze hunchback and embrace free software.

    No, they don't need to embrace free software. Closed source, Proprietary, well supported software is just fine when it works well. Just because you can't feel special because you can't ./configure; make; make install with it doesn't make it bad. And how cute... you spelled windows, windoze.

    They could steal most of the Xenon server market if they did this.

    Huh? By making Solaris open-source they could steal most of the Xenon market? I have no idea what you're talking about.

    Yes, it's very difficult to get data from the cheap XP box to your nice Sun.

    Oh yeah, FTP, NFS, CDROM even... super hard.

    The answer is to convince people that a GNU box works better than an XP box for any and all work related computing. Then they have their pick of ssh and all the traditional Unix networking software.

    What? We have to convince people to use Linux instead of Windows XP... Um, this isn't even relevant to what we're talking about.

    To sum up, you're pretty mixed on several things. The primary thing I was trying to educate you on in the parent post is that, these boxes are not for you. They're for research, development, and mission-critical applications. You will never have a need for it. Corporations on the other hand do for various reasons.

    Ever time somebody brings up Sun, everyone goes "THOSE SPECS SUCK, KILL KILL KILL!". Sun equipment isn't about the specs. It's about the OS mostly and the support you get for that OS to run your extremely important applications. We can debate all day long about how they should've put SCSI in there instead of IDE or what have you but that's not the point of my posts. Sun has made some poor decisions in regards to their hardware but I really don't think that will stop customers (read: companies, not you) that already have Sun equipment from switching. It certainly won't gain them customers, but thats another debate.

    --
    I just wasted your mod points! HA!
  35. Re:Sun Blade 2000 - 2x UltraSPARC III+ by owlstead · · Score: 2, Insightful

    It's not so much buggy as that the Win 32 system is not really build for Java. The multitasking and process handling just don't fit right. I've never seen JRE bugs on MS (not including the MS port, which was fast but broken).

  36. Sparc IV's and V's ?? by Billly+Gates · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Sun and TI better get their dam act together.

    I sense another Motorolla going on here. TI see's only short term costs to upgrade their chip fabrication plants and is screwing Sun. Meanwhile they are losing sparc sales because fustrated customers are switching to lintel and AIX.

    Perhaps sun is testing waters and will likely dump TI if the Sparc IV's and V's which both were supposed to be out by now, are not out soon.

    Perhaps they will use AMD64's for all their systems.

    Sun could use the processor but custom build their high end back planed motherboards and multiple buses known for their servers.

    HP is doing this for their superdome with Itaniums.

    I would be royally pissed if I were Scott McNealy right now. Customers will not upgrade unless newer systems perform significantly better.

    If sales do not go up, McNeally could lose his job. Merryl Lynch already tried to can him last quarter.

  37. Article is meaningless by caesar79 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    This guy has no idea what he is talking about.

    First things first - sun does not compete on speed. It competes on reliability and stability. Yeah my athlon 1800+ is way faster than my sun blade 100...but if you check the number of reboots, sun wins hands down with 0 in over 2 years.

    Incidentally, I get more work done on the sun m/c.

    Now to the article:
    "...The 350w power supply is made by Samsung, and I would consider it barely adequate for this kind of computer....If I were designing this workstation I would have used a more robust power supply..."

    Yeah sure. If you could you'd put in a nuclear reactor over there!!! Ever heard of power efficiency? Those guys had a good enough reason to stick with a 350W power supply...and trust me, those engineers are no idiots.

    "...I wish it had a drive activity indicator LED and a reset button, which would add a lot of convenience for very little added cost..."

    Reset button ? Sun ? get off your windowz box and work on a sun box for a year. Tell me if you *ever* need to reboot it. (for those who dont know - very few patches require reboots)

    "... You're also subject to automatic software updates which may include further license restrictions. But at least there's no product activation, so it's not as bad as it could be...."

    automatic s/w updates ? Solaris 8 ?

    The "reviewer" is totally unqualified. He has no idea of the intended use of Sun machines. Nor does it seem he has ever worked on one. Comparing it with 32bit desktops is like comparing a car with a humvee.. Sure the former beats it in speed [hummer goes max ~80mph)..but in real life, especially when you are being bombarded ...humvee is the way to go.

  38. Re: weak troll by benzapp · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Out of the fortune 500, who needs a 64 or 112 processor system? Nobody.

    This seriously has to be the stupidest post I have seen in a long time. Who do you think DOES need that kind of equipment? Just Industrial Light and Magic? Universities?

    Fortune 500 companies have tens of thousands of employees and have custom designed statistical software processing data on every conceivable aspect of business.

    Modern financial corporations are BUILT upon statistics. Investment firms will be analyzing millions of financial transactions all over the world every single day. Insurance companies also have very complex risk analysis tools with huge data sets.

    Those are just two examples. The other fortune 500 companies are going to be companies like GM. Do you honestly think that a company like GM does not use the most sophisticated simulation software imaginable? They have been using

    What do you think the entire IT industry is about? just simplifying data entry? The real benefit is the analysis of the data which aids in management decisions.

    --
    I don't read or respond to AC posts
  39. Sun Blade Clarification by arrianus · · Score: 4, Insightful

    One thing to bear in mind is that this is a Blade.

    The Blade is Sun's low-end series of machines. They are not fast. They are not reliable. I've seen a fair number of the SunBlade 100s overheat and die. I've had one Blade die over and over and over again. They have low-grade IDE hard drives, and the rest of the system is of comparable quality. There isn't any Sun magic in there to prevent the industry-standard low-end IDE drive or low-end PSU from failing, and the Sun components of the system are of comparable quality (in some cases, of comparable quality to an eMachine). Anyone who tells you otherwise is either clueless or trying to sell you something.

    A high-end x86 machine will blow away these Blades on almost every benchmark, and cost a lot less. This model Sparc has higher IPC than an x86, but not 3x higher, and more than 3x lower MHz.

    The reliability advantages of the Sun's come on higher-end machines. The throughput advantages come on higher-end machines. All of the standard advantages people have cited in this forum come from higher-end machines. Someone mentioned large databases -- the Blade 1500 only supports 4GB of RAM, and beyond that you're swapping to IDE. No performance boost there.

    These machines are engineered for cost -- not speed, not reliability, not network throughput, not memory bandwidth, not upgradeability, and not anything else. We've bought Blades for just under a grand. When you consider how much more it costs to have your own custom-made CPU, motherboard, chipset, case, etc, without the advantages of mass-production, that's very, very cheap.

    However, sometimes you need a Sun. Over here, we have some very high-end Suns (64 CPU machines, etc.). We have a lot of custom software that only runs on Suns. A lot of mainstream engineering applications do not have GNU/Linux ports, and we really don't want to be touching Windows. Having the network standardized to the same type of machine, and having everyone standardized to the same software helps a lot. This is one place where the low-end Suns fit in. You don't buy them because they are faster or better than an x86. You buy them because the high-end suns are faster and better than an x86, and it's often convenient to have matching low-end machines on your network.

  40. First word of page is not a good sign... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    "Leveraging" just reeks of Marketspeak (tm). "Building on the core technologies," maybe, or "Working with the existing core technologies." But "leveraging" brings to mind synergizing with the creatives and helping push On-demand opportunities to potential market base. I'll just task you with a few actionables, and hopefully we'll come out of the opt-out with a win-win! ON-DEMAND!

  41. Article summary for those too lazy to read it by oingoboingo · · Score: 4, Insightful
    Sun sent me a Blade 1500 to review. It's real ugly, and doesn't have much space for expansion. Apart from that it's just a PC. With an UltraSPARC IIIi CPU in it mind you, but with a $75 consumer grade Seagate IDE hard drive and a DVD drive from a 3rd tier supplier. Your mother's Dell has higher specced components in it.


    It runs kind of OK I guess, about as fast as a 1.8GHz Pentium 4, which for comparison no-one would consider buying for a new PC these days. The Blade 1500 is faster than the Blade 150, but then again so is my Palm PDA. If your vendor still hasn't ported your application to Linux, then this workstation might make some sense while you wait for them to do it. If you're not a Sun shop, this won't interest you. If you *are* a Sun shop, then this will be an adequate last Sun workstation for you before you head off into the x86/Linux arena in 2005/2006.


    Take a loving look at your SparcStation 20 you've got stashed away in the basement...they don't make them like they used to.