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FBI Conducts Raids Over Half-Life 2 Source Theft
TheXerox writes "According to a recent weblog post, a San Francisco native had his house raided by the FBI last week, and 'lost upwards of 9 machines, and lots of misc equipment besides' in a seizure related to the theft of the Half-Life 2 source code from Valve Software." The scanned-in search warrant posted on the site indicates the FBI were looking for "...any IP addresses related to any of the Valve internal or external networks... Valve passwords and/or usernames... any and all items... related to Valve Software, Half-Life, Half-Life 2", and the Hungry Programmers page mentions that "...several Hungries were raided on January 14th by the FBI and Secret Service, and their computers seized."
It would really piss me off to lose my machines if I never did anything, I wonder how long it would be before you got them back and what kind of condition they would be in.
Just when I thought they would let it die down, due to it being a bit more personal and involved, it seems like they went in to full gear.
But I'm still a bit doubtful that ANY network admin wouldn't notice 11GB of traffic to an outside location on the network.
Slashdot is a good example of why a true democracy would be a bad idea. A person can be smart, but people are dumb.
"Have you ever thought about just turning off the TV, sitting down with your kids, and hitting them?"
And you have to love the bit about whether the agents had "guns drawn" when he opened the door. There's nothing to suggest they actually did - but by tossing the reference in there, the FBI sounds much more menacing, don't they?
Stop by my site where I write about ERP systems & more
If you are found innocent...
a) What countermeasures/damages can you persue
b) If your computers are for business use, can you sue for lost revenue?
c) If they find something illegal (who doesn't have a "hack for program x" or keygen etc), but it is found that they came after you mistakenly, are your computers still lost?
d) You got no card, how can you call to find out about your stuff?
e) 9 computers, decent chance one is a server. How about if the server was hacked (cmon, if they hack valve wouldn't they redirect through dummy servers)
When did a weblog become fact? I understand they had scanned documents, but I just get very nervous about allowing blogs to become sources of fact.
Hmm. As a head programmer I'd imagine he has privledged access to Ximian's machines. Ximian may want to look into data storage if their own computers are taken...
I Browse at +4 Flamebait
Open Source Sysadmin
And why would I, as a developer, be the least bit interested in some wannabe adding to my codebase. If you are any good and I want your help I will offer you a job. Further, What business is it of anybody in what progress I am or am not making in producing a product that I want to sell. If you can't wait what do I care. If I lose a sale because I am taking to long it's nobodys business or problem but my own.
Oh, you meant done for them, not done to them; my mistake!
I Belive that now copying something is considered theft by law. I do not agree with this, but if they have now defined it as theft, they are legaly correct in that statement, even if theoricly they are not right.
In other threads, people have suggested that the Feds didn't understand how IP addresses work, and raided the wrong network. I suppose that's possible, but I think it unlikely, especially since they must know about the crack being traced to a user in Europe. It's more likely that they know or suspect that the HP guys have copies of the stolen source, and the raid is just a way to "send a message" to others who might consider downloading it.
Technically, computers get seized so the cops can gather evidence, which is supposed to lead to some kind of punishment if all the due process requirements are met. But as often as not, the seizure itself is the only punishment metted out, and is obviously meant as such. Which is pretty scary, when you consider your total lack of recourse when you are punished in this manner.
Is it really working?
Is it reasonable to sieze everything (including things not on the list, if his story's true...) in sight on a mere suspicion? Sounds like unreasonable search and siezure to me. Considering that the Hungry programmers aren't the ones that were off and bragging about it, I have a very big suspicion that we're seeing another Steve Jackson Games debacle playing before our eyes. While I'm going to give the Feds some benefit of doubt- it's not a lot, as they're not all lilly-white pure followers of what the law states, including the Constitution and they've been guilty of some rather heinous acts themselves in the relatively recent past.
I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the State of Texas
You're sure as hell not going to see something like this get presented by news outlets. Not sensational and it's just some geeks getting busted for hacking, afterall... Never mind that while due process might have been done, it may still be an unreasonable search and siezure of his property by virtue of the fact that they had little real worth to go on and used PATRIOT or something similar to rush a warrant through the courts. Since I don't know the whole story, I'm not going to venture a guess either way- but to ask me to think of it as fiction just because it's a blog is a bit much as well.
I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the State of Texas
No point in doing that. They give you a receipt for anything they take, and they can't use and item as evidence in court without first proving that they gave you a receipt for that item. So everything they touched is going to be clearly itemized.
It seems like this guy's first priority was to sound an alarm...
Makes sense to me.
"Hey guys. I thought I'd let you know, there's a bunch of cops searching my apartment right now, so if I end up missing by the end of the day, you'll know what happened. In that case, could you please call a lawyer for me?"
It's the kind of thing friends tell each other, don't you think?
The comments are the amazing part to me. You'd think people savvy enough to have read this story would be bright enough to understand why they absolutely HAVE to take the computers, not sit there dicking around trying to pull hard drives out.
If Valve tries to make the claim in court that HL2 was postponed until April because of the source code theft, that will become fraud on their part. Until now it was just harmless marketing lies. The delay had little if anything to do with the code theft -- that was only a convenient excuse
How do you know it didn't affect and delay the product? Do you work for Valve? Where's your proof?
I can tell you, at my company, if there was a break-in that got all our code, we'd be up shit creek. There would be a complete overhaul of all our processes, interviews with all the personel, new security training, new procedures, a complete audit, and worst of all talented and hard working people would get fired. All of this would take time, affect everybody, and slow every project down.
I find it hard to belive that Valve didn't go through something similar internally. If you're going to make drastic claims like this, at least provide some proof or reasoning behind your logic.
Bryan
Okay, points for keeping his composure I guess, but no points whatsoever for intelligence. He seriously just wandered off to take a walk while they were going through his apartment?!
Folks? If this ever happens to you? CALL YOUR LAWYER. Not the next day, not the day after, but the instant you can convince them to let you get your hands on a phone. If you don't have a lawyer, call a friend that you trust to find you a lawyer.
It's all well and good that the raiders in this case were relatively polite and friendly, but once the legal system takes notice of you in this way, Mister Policeman is no longer your friend. They have a job to do, and that job is to put your ass in jail. If being nice to you helps them to do this, they'll be nice. If scaring you senseless helps them to do this, they'll do that too. But the fact remains: they are not paid to catch someone who they know for a fact is guilty; they are being paid to catch someone they can convince a District Attorney is guilty, and those are two very, very different things.
If you are ever in this situation, the only words that come out of your mouth when speaking to the feds should be "I'd like to call my attorney." His job is to keep you out of jail.
News for Nerds. Stuff that Matters? Like hell.
reading these posts, there are two questions that have REALLY obvious answers. I'll give them anyway, since they seem to be stumping so many people.
cds: its just policy. One can make a burned cd look pressed if they really want to. Instead of wasting time inspecting each cd, just take them all. Fairly simple.
why he told friends: Some may be students, who have their school work on their systems, but won't see those systems for years if they get taken. Some may be have files of business importance - perhaps they were writing a program for a company, perhaps they have an extensive cvs repository sitting on a server. Perhaps its just business contacts, or hell - email archives.
There are a LOT of things that will screw up your life for months, if not years, if you suddenly lose it. Keep in mind that while you may make backups, those backups will be taken as well. Offsite backups even will be, if they know about them (which more and more lately, they will know).
Think about what would happen if all of your computers, backups, media, and etc all disappeared in an instant. If you're 100% innocent, it will still take a couple of years to get things back. In our tech-dependent world, that's a long time to be in hell for no reason.
In America, there would be no tale. It's legal to own guns.
Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
As if there were ever doubt any longer that America were a police state ...
You don't really have any concept of what a police state is, do you?
These people had a warrant. Issued by a (mostly) impartial judge. They were investigating an actual crime of serious magnitude commited against a company that I, for one, am very grateful for making.
In a real police state (Nazi Germany, Stalist Russia, etc...), the FBI would not have rung your doorbell at 6:30am. They would not have had a warrant, and they most certianly would not have been civilized while they hauled only some your stuff out the door. They would have kicked down your door at 3am, killed your family, and set your house on fire. All because you belived in the wrong religion, or were the member of the wrong political party.
FBI raids are not pretty, but like it or not, this is how a fair and just legal system works. When you have to balance the rights of victims and the rights of the accused, nobody comes out happy. I don't know if this guy is guilty or innocent, but he should keep his mouth shut, call a lawyer, and take advantage of every other right that he has. And he can do that because he doesn't live in a police state, he lives in a free country. That's why he's laughing about this whole thing instead of next in line to get his hand chopped off at the local prison.
a law must be enacted where computers can not be held for a certain period of time (5 business days) unless charges are brought up against the owner. the 5 days would give the confiscator enough time to copy the hard drives on the machines. if not, why should the citizen be responsible for the time it takes the secret service / fbi to analyze the contents of a hard drive. this kind of reminds me of the ibm sco case.
Why did I lurk so long before registering for a Slashdot account? I could have had a Slashdot ID of less than 100000.
You know, as much as you may think life is polar, it isn't.
How do you know a crime was committed in this circumstance?
How does -he- know he's -actually- a suspect, and this wasn't
just a con job?
The cops shouldn't be able to just walk into someones house, un-chaperoned, un-watched, hand over some official documents, and charge off with his posessions while the guy just walks around in the street, in a daze, like some sheep.
Instead, the cops should bring public representation -with- them, who will observe all activity until the innocent person is able to arrange their own representation to have all details of the incident witnessed.
That public representative should be there for two reasons: one, legitimacy at face value, of the government in this action, and to provide witness of the entire event -for the innocent person, and for the investigation. Hey, why not give TV camermen a real job and require all police activity of this nature to be taped and archived to absolutely -ensure- justice?
Then, its no longer a police state, where the cops can do anything they want to any citizen under their suspicion, it is instead a public state where witness is borne, and facts are revealed and recorded every step of the way, from both the investigation and the 'protection of the innocent' perspectives.
The primary intent of those people walking into that guys house at 6:30am in the morning was to find evidence to prove him guilty of wrong-doing. That was their job, thats what they were there to do. They had gotten up bright and early in the morning, gotten their coffee at Starbucks on the way into work, and went off to interrupt that persons life on the basis of suscpicion.
There should -also- have been someone there, at the same time, to ensure justice is served to the innocent. These two roles cannot be trusted to a single person.
It is an open society which promotes the rigorous protection of the innocent more stringently than it prosecutes as completely as possible the guilty.
Incidentally, a policy of non-secrecy like this one would be good for the whole 'data records' issue too. If there is an item in a database with my name on it, it belongs to me and should be visible to me at any time I request it. Since I believe that the rights of some corporation are not greater than my individual rights, issues of 'business trade secret' are irrelevant.
Another sign of a 'police state' is 'secret files'. The fact that so many corporations have so many amazingly detailed facts about citizens, none of whom have -any- access to this information, nor recourse over its use and influence on their daily lives, leads to just a few more alarm bells about the current situaton in the US of A, Inc...
; -- the corruption of government starts with its secrets. a truly free people keep no secrets. --
Bullshit. I live in Russia and I have friends whose grandparents were arrested in 1937-1939 by NKVD. I'll tell you about it.
These people either had a warrant or they had the legal authority to arrest people/search their homes. They were investigating an actual crime of serious magnitude commited against the country (treason, sabotage, espionage) that we (the Soviet people) loved dearly.
The NKVD would often come at night, but often in the morning or any other time of the day. They either rang or knocked, they didn't break the door. They were civilized and they didn't kill anybody. They also didn't steal any property from the house. People, who were arrested, were taken into jail, where they were treated according to the procedures and with all necessary paperwork. The house was, obviously left intact, no fire. This never happened because you believed in wrong religion (nobody cared much at that time, since a very large fraction of the population was religious) or were the member of the wrong party (there was only one party), but because you were charged with a serious crime, such as conspiring to kill our beloved leader Josef Stalin.
The point is not, whether the crimes are real or not, it doesn't really matter whether you are sent to gulag for sabotaging a power plant that you didn't or for copying a DVD that you did. What matters is that once the state becomes too powerful, it will gradually transform into a police state and a bit later into a totalitarian police state. That's what is happening in the US.
The fact that you have rights is irrelevant to whether the country is a police state - you are confusing it with a lawless dictatorship. In a police state you may have rights, but they are trumped by even greater rights of the police. This guy is laughing, but would he if he was accused of assisting terrorists?
Future Wiki -- If you don't think about the future, you cannot have one.