OSDL Announces Desktop Initiative

rhetoric writes "Earlier today at the LinuxWorld Conference & Expo in New York, nonprofit Open Source Development Labs announced the creation of a "Desktop Linux Working Group initiative focused on greater use of Linux on desktops throughout the enterprise." A press release is available on OSDL's website, in addition to this Register article." It's all part of their non-secret plan.

Comments

Working group representing a consortium of vendors

[Eric S Rayrnond]

We all know how good committees are at deciding things. Compromise usually leads to the lowest common denominator. Do we really want a Linux desktop that's designed by a committee? Isn't that against the whole spirit of free software?

What exactly does this mean?

[The One KEA]

The Register article says that the OSDL is setting out to crate a specification for what an enterprise Linux distribution should be made up of. Yet the Register article also implies that the OSDL is not going to receive much direct user input on the spec itself. Is this going to turn out to be another UnitedLinux?

Re:What exactly does this mean?

[kfg]

Is this going to turn out to be another UnitedLinux?

Nah. Looks to be more of an ISO 9000 for Linux usage.

And there was much rejoicing. Ehhhhhhhhhhhh!

KFG

Perspective of a Linux neophyte

[Sarojin]

I've been using Wintel for over 15 years and have just recently installed Mandrake 9 on an older P2 450. Here are a couple of points I think are worth mentioning (ubergeeks can exclude themselves from the classifications below):

1. Linux is ready for *some* desktops only, namely ones where users won't be constantly tweaking and installing new software and hardware. You want a computer for grandma to browse the web, send email and view a few grandkid photos? Linux is great! You want to roll out corporate desktops where employees don't really need to be able to download and install the latest version of KaZaA? Linux is a godsend (provided the business software you need is supported).

2. Linux is *not* ready for the average user desktop. The average user wants to do everything grandma wants to do, but they also want to be able to install or upgrade software and hardware *easily*. In addition, they want a fully functional GUI, with no *necessity* of dropping to a CLI for everyday tasks. They want to be able to go to a third party software/driver website, follow the 'click here for Linux version' hyperlink, download the file, then double-click to install it.

Needless to say, as long as Linux distributions and desktop managers continue to proliferate, the average user's requirements will never be met. I say this as a *fact* not a *prescription*, so spare me the Linux-strength-in-diversity comments. I just think you can't have your cake (freedom/diversity) and eat it too (Linux on average desktop).

Re:Perspective of a Linux neophyte

[thed0gman]

Hmmm. I semi-agree with the above, but I think that one of the strengths of Linux *is* the powerful CLI and reduced desktop functionality.

When the Windows GUI fails to start, there's often little that can be done from the command line to help, mainly because the bastardised CP/M-clone that is DOS has been further stripped of any useful features it may have once accidentally had. Linux, OTOH, takes the "power to screw up your machine" out of the hands of the average user and puts it back in the hands of the administrator.

The only thing I wish for is a faster version of OpenOffice....

Re:Perspective of a Linux neophyte

[iota]

Needless to say, as long as Linux distributions and desktop managers continue to proliferate, the average user's requirements will never be met. I say this as a *fact* not a *prescription*, so spare me the Linux-strength-in-diversity comments. I just think you can't have your cake (freedom/diversity) and eat it too (Linux on average desktop).

I'm sure I'm not going to be the only one to disagree with you on this point. Although I agree that the current Linux desktops may not be ready for the users you describe, I don't agree with the leap of logic that diversity necessarily means it will never be ready. That's just silliness IMO. All it takes is /one/ desktop (or suite of software options) to make it easy for these users -- perhaps it doesn't exist yet, but when it does, it can be used, even by the majority of users, regardless of whether or not there are other options.

The "unify or die" logic has always seemed like a non sequitur to me.

Re:Perspective of a Linux neophyte

[Anonymous Coward]

Get your faster version of OpenOffice here It starts up in just 2 seconds on my medium range machine (1.6Ghz with 768Mb RAM) and once loaded it is very fast.

Re:Perspective of a Linux neophyte

[ykardia]

The average user wants to do everything grandma wants to do, but they also want to be able to install or upgrade software and hardware *easily*. There are lots of package management tools out there that make installing software on most distros very easy (emerge, apt-get, red-carpet etc). Most of them have nice GUI front-ends as well, allowing you to point-click-install.

Re:Perspective of a Linux neophyte

[torpor]

Linux is ready for *some* desktops only, namely ones where users won't be constantly tweaking and installing new software and hardware.

in other words, linux is ready for the healthier installations, and not ready for sick computer use.

constant tweaking and installation of new hardware and software is not using a computer productively. using a computer productively means that the computer is operational, in the sense that it doesn't actually -need- anything further to be done to it in order to function as intended. it just works.

this 'just works' state is fairly easy to get to with linux, and other open operating systems, and stay there. but i can count on one hand the # of windows users i have personally known who can point at their aging computers and say 'that system just works, so i leave it alone and just use it'.

15 years of Windows use may have given you a neurosis, a false standard, with which you are comparing other platforms where such inflictions aren't really a priority. of -course- you can tweak and install software in linux; indefinitely in fact.

but the point of computing, and of computer use in general is to -USE- the computer to do something, not be continuously servicing it. this is a fact that seems so simple, yet for most window-dwellers, it often appears to be inseparable from 'actual use' as a concept.

i blame microsoft of course. tweaking and upgrading and re-installing and installing and 'software choice' is just a way of getting you locked into a constant crackhouse fit.

The average user wants to do everything grandma wants to do, but they also want to be able to install or upgrade software and hardware *easily*.

why should they? ubiquitous, cheap computing (s/cheap/inexpensive) means that once you've set it up and got it working, you can leave it alone and just use it.

people are starting to see that the windows treadmill is a trap. once you get sucked into a windows way of life, upgrades and re-installs and tweaks and fixes all seem to be 'normal' ways to use the computer, but in fact this is really a detraction from the core issue of computer science, which is 'how can i use this computer to do the job in front of me?'.

microsoft, and others in the industry who have been around long enough to have weathered countless waves of API and hardware technological changes know that computers are a constantly-changing product. its like a lump of magic matter which never maintains its state long enough for it to become a fixture.

but this is not the linux philosophy. the linux philosophy is: get it working, and once its working, use it.

Re:Perspective of a Linux neophyte

[Apreche]

You got it all right, except for one.

They want to be able to go to a third party software/driver website, follow the 'click here for Linux version' hyperlink, download the file, then double-click to install it.

This is what they want to do, but it's also what they shouldn't be doing. The fact that people can do this is the reason there is so much malware out there. Linux done right will force the non geek to have a great system, somethign windows can never do.
Linux at this point isn't any harder than windows, if you get a geek to set it up for you. What we need is a distro called grandma linux. The WM will be just a bunch of huge icons on a single desktop. One will say E-mail one will say Web Browser, one will say Word Processor, Instant Messenger, etc. Which applications these things actually launch will be decided at install time, which grandma wont do. Stability, compatibility and ease of use will be priority one. There will be also one more big button, Add more Big Buttons. It will run a custom app that will be super grpahical and pretty providing a list of installable apps.
This is also great for the corporate desktop, because you can give the secretary just the few apps she's allowed and nothing more.

There is no reason someone can't make this. In fact, this is the kind of thing that just isn't possible on windows, but is exactly what the world needs. You know what, I'm putting this on my CS projects queue. When I'm done with everything else I'm going to make that wm and that distro. All will be laid to burnination.

Re:Perspective of a Linux neophyte

[Lispy]

It depends.

1. As for Hardware, most hardware is very easy to install by now. For example to switch a NVidia Graphicscard just take out your old one and insert your new model. Done. Same with most CD-Burners, USB-Sticks, Keyboards, Digicams, and so on. Of course this depends on your own configuration a bit but you get the idea. I woulndt say its much harder than WinXP in this segment, though.

2. In the unlikely event that a distribution like SuSE or Debian does not contain the piece of software out of box you are looking for you can still grab a nice rpm or deb and run with it. I use Slackware with swaret and Dropline-Gnome and I always receive the latest software automatically. It is MUCH easier than keeping track with Windows. If I really need a package I can use Slacks easy package installer. No Problem here.

Conclusion: Both issues are well adressed by now but since Linux is different from Windows there are some users who "feel" that it is harder, while it is not necesserly.

cu,
Lispy

Re:Perspective of a Linux neophyte

[16K Ram Pack]

I think the CLI is valuable, but you are right - things need to be simpler.

I personally think the gnome vs KDE thing is just getting silly - can't people just work together to get one working rather than drawing battle lines.

It's a bit like the number of content management systems on Sourceforge. I'm not saying people *shouldn't* build another, but how about working on someone else's instead.

If the program really doesn't do what you want, or does it in a ropey fashion, I'd say do your own. But contributing probably means that you get a load of cheap code, and a lot of people gain in return.

Re:Perspective of a Linux neophyte

[dimss]

Linux is *not* ready for the average user desktop. The average user wants to do everything grandma wants to do, but they also want to be able to install or upgrade software and hardware *easily*. In addition, they want a fully functional GUI, with no *necessity* of dropping to a CLI for everyday tasks.

MS provides good software for them, and Linux is nice choice for the rest. I don't want Linux to become GUI- and *.inf-centric. Today's Linux has optimal (for me) split between CLI and GUI.

There is no technical problem with hardware support in Linux. Some manufacturers are not Linux-friendly (guess why). If something doesn't work with Linux, just don't buy it.

Re:Perspective of a Linux neophyte

[bangular]

OMG someone finally gets it!!! All this talk of there's no gui for this or that etc. etc. There have been plenty of GUI's for a looooong time. I remember back in the day using Mandrake (very old version) and that had a GUI package system. RPM cooker I think it was called. You just clicked the cooker icon, it updated list of the software that was available, and you either installed new software or updated old software. I didn't know anything about command line back then and was the average desktop user, and I used it just fine. I setup a home network with it just using the GUI. I know people who run linux servers and don't know any command line (usually run it through webmin or an included GUI). KDE has a GUI for freakin everything. There must be at least 10 GUI's just for installing RPM's. I think all this talk of "there needs to be more GUI's" is old, because there have been plenty of GUI's for years. I can't think of a single task that someone hasn't written a GUI frontend for, or at the very least an NCurses interface for.

Re:Perspective of a Linux neophyte

[mark_lybarger]

first off, i have no idea why in the world everyone on /. focuses on a 'grandma' ready o/s. what is the average, mean, median, mode (whatever) age of home computer user? sure _some_ folks grandma's use the computer, but they also have a grandkid around everynow and again to show them what to do. grandma isn't the target audience here for any operating system. my mother (who is _a_ grandma) had troubles installing windows ME drivers for a usb HP printer, even with HP's easy to follow (i assume) instructions. she ends up paying someone from the local uni $20 to come over and frix it up.

next, why shouldn't there be a location for manufacturer hardware drivers. i assume we're talking closed source, but that doesn't matter. a lot of the linux drivers out there never make it into the main kernel, so you're left hoping your distro includes it. also, a lot of drivers find themselves unmaintained rather quickly. end users probably will figure out eventually that open source drives are much more beneficial than the closed drivers (upgrades), but really, if i buy a cheep 'ol scanner at compusa or best buy, and can get a binary driver from linuxbinarydrivers.com and have the thing just _work_, i'd be extremely satisfied. heck, they could even install their own binary application with links onto my desktop if they want. this will get people using it.

i do know some folks that would need that stripped down user interface you speak of (hasn't it been done yet?). i wouldn't call them a grandma audience, but rather a Wal-mart audience. these are people who the closest grocery store is about 10 minute away. and during that 10 minute drive, they're not fighting traffic lights, they're watching the corn grow just to the other side 'o the ditch.

Re:Perspective of a Linux neophyte

[Anonymous Coward]

I hate this grandma thing.

My grandma is as incapable as running windows as she is at running linux.

My grandma wants 2 things:

Send email,
read email.

Not get accelerated drivers for a ATI video card easily and quickly.

And if you look at the current state virus, I think linux is actually more capable then Windows for what most grandmas want:

A computer to get email, write crap and surf the net and not crash all the time.

As far as the installation or the "tweaking" she couldn't give a damn. Those are my jobs irregardless of what OS she is using.

Re:Perspective of a Linux neophyte

[sempf]

All it takes is /one/ desktop (or suite of software options) to make it easy for these users -- perhaps it doesn't exist yet, but when it does, it can be used, even by the majority of users, regardless of whether or not there are other options.

That is wrong. A working office suite is not enough. Linux needs a group to work with manufacturers so that average hardware comes with a Linux driver disk, and had web driven upgrades. This is a massive undertakung. I am writing this on a TouchStream keyboard - the FIRST device I have ever bought with Linux drivers in the box - and I an your average geek - I buy lots of toys.

Re:Perspective of a Linux neophyte

[egghat]

First: Your point about hardware support has valid points. Multimedia support (TV cards for example) lacks somewhat.

BUT: You'll have to change the way you upgrade your computer and OS; hardware/drivers as well as software.

With Linux (as a normal user) you choose a distribution. The distro maker packages software and drivers for you. So if you need new drivers for your printer, don't go to epson, go to gimp-print or to be more precise check if e.g. Mandrake offers a new version of gimp-print with better epson drivers for you.

The same thing applies to your software upgrades: Good distribution makers package sth. like 1.000 packages for you. That's a lot more than Joe Average needs.

Compare that with WindowsUpdate. I have never ever installed a single driver with WindowsUpdate. I never ever installed software except Microsoft Software (to be more precise: bug fixes and security fixes) with WindowsUpdate.

So what's easier? Clicking MandrakeUpdate or checking 10th of sites for new version of drivers and software?

I guess you're just one the many users who think the way they've done it for the past 15 years is the only way to do it and if Linux does it differently that has to be worse.

Bye egghat.

Re:Perspective of a Linux neophyte

[DrXym]

The thing is Mac OS X is an OS grandma can use but you can also open a shell and completely ignore Aqua if you want.

So the problem with Linux is not technical. If OS X (a BSD derivative) can have a user friendly frontend then so could Linux. That means proper attention to detail in the UI, user friendliness, hiding advanced options, extensive context sensitive help, wizards and config dialogs, plug and play on the desktop, 3D graphics support (out of the box), and consumer device support. Etc.

Some dists get a lot of this right already (e.g. Fedora has a very nice UI without detracting from the underlying OS) so we're not far from that situation. Hopefully initiatives such as this one from OSDL will help put focus on the work that still needs to be done. It doesn't mean dumbing down Lindows style - a well designed and tolerant UI benefits everyone.

Another major millstone for Linux is the RTFM crowd. At the moment they're acting like so much dead weight to adoption of Linux. Hopefully they'll get a clue and realise the more users the better. And that is not going to happen while a vocal minority are openly hostile to letting mere mortals use their beloved OS.

Re: Perspective of a Linux neophyte

[Lobais]

They want to be able to go to a third party software/driver website, follow the 'click here for Linux version' hyperlink, download the file, then double-click to install it. Exactly, and that's much easier in Linux. You download the program, you double-click on the .rpm file, and the program is installed. There is no installation manager or anything to waste your time.

Re:Perspective of a Linux neophyte

[justsomebody]

in other words, linux is ready for the healthier installations, and not ready for sick computer use.

the linux philosophy is: get it working, and once its working, use it.

Best desriptions ever, I just wished some modpoints

Re:Perspective of a Linux neophyte

[Mr_Silver]

people are starting to see that the windows treadmill is a trap. once you get sucked into a windows way of life, upgrades and re-installs and tweaks and fixes all seem to be 'normal' ways to use the computer

Whilst I agree to some point, there are still plenty of people who use Windows 95 and 98 and shouldn't be considered stuck in the "windows treadmill".

The real treadmill is the hardware one for games. If you want to keep up with the latest and greatest games you have to fork out the cash for the faster better hardware.

People spend far more on this than they do on their operating system (which is generally the one they got with the PC and the one that is on there when the PC dies or is canned for a newer, faster one).

So whilst i agree with you that there is a treadmill, it's not really as much of a trap as you make it out to be.

Re:Perspective of a Linux neophyte

[torpor]

You make the case that the 'treadmill is great for games'.

And then you conclude:

So whilst i agree with you that there is a treadmill, it's not really as much of a trap as you make it out to be.

Sorry, but games are a trap too. You're lured into them for the purposes of 'entertainment and fun', and end up wasting countless, countless hours playing them. And when you are finished, you have nothing to show for it except memories. Of a completely artificial reality.

I'm not implying a value judgement here - it is for every human being alive to determine their own tolerance for the world around them. I'm just saying that both a) video game playing and b) windows upgrades are an industrial treadmill which produce very little except profit for their executors...

Re:Perspective of a Linux neophyte

[bernywork]

Here is a thought.

How about the people that put out this hardware include somewhere in the hardware that is connected (Firmware, flash, whatever) a URL for the machine to follow to pick up the latest drivers / software for that hardware. If the machine has the software installed locally it uses that temporarily and the machine comes up saying:

"You have connected new hardware to this computer, the hardware is currently usable, but may not be optimal. Do you want to connect to the internet and see if there is a newer version of this software?"

Once the software is installed, the machine every now and again, checks the page for a new version number to see if there is a new version.

At the end of the day, you might say this is automated and bad; from a security point of view I have to agree to some degree. The only problem I have is that at the moment we are basically doing the same thing anyway, we are just doing it manually as opposed to automatically.

How many of the people out there review the binary drivers that they get for their SCSI card when they download them from Adaptec?

Thoughts? Comments?

Re:Perspective of a Linux neophyte

[Mr_Silver]

Sorry, but games are a trap too. You're lured into them for the purposes of 'entertainment and fun', and end up wasting countless, countless hours playing them. And when you are finished, you have nothing to show for it except memories. Of a completely artificial reality.

My apologies, my conclusion was badly worded. I meant to say:

So whilst i agree with you that there is a treadmill in Windows upgrades, it's not really as much of a trap as you make it out to be when you compare it to the treadmill for hardware upgrades for games.

Hope that now makes sense.

Re:Perspective of a Linux neophyte

[TheTick]

The average user wants to do everything grandma wants to do, but they also want to be able to install or upgrade software and hardware *easily*. In addition, they want a fully functional GUI, with no *necessity* of dropping to a CLI for everyday tasks.

With a little qualified oversight, any of the Free n*xen make excellent home desktop machines. It should be noted that this is also true of 'doze, though more qualified oversight may be required.

The difficulty faced by the typical end-user (your brother-in-law) installing software on n*x means he will never darken your doorstep with a system tray overflowing with icons saying his machine has slowed down, please fix it. When he really does need this or that software for the n*x box you configure for him, installation will be a simple matter of making an ssh connection. I would much rather remotely administer the n*x box than deal with the aftermath of ill-thought out, willy-nilly fluffybunny.exe installation.

The apparent power granted to users by other OSes is a trade off for potential headaches later.

The real weakness the n*xen face on the home desktop is in (legal) support or at least less seamful integration for common media formats that grandma and the BiL want to be able to view.

Re:Perspective of a Linux neophyte

[torpor]

The difference is, games give you nothing in the end, whereas the 'PC-tweak' treadmill should, presumably, leave you with a 'better running' computer ... or so the implications seem to warrant.

I don't disagree with your conclusion, just that concluding that games are a massive treadmill does not mean that 'tweak treadmill' is any less of a trap.

Re:Perspective of a Linux neophyte

[kmarius]

But what about closed source software, that you need to buy (Photoshop, Games etc.)? Without a common package format that works across distro's, you end up with huge statically linked tar.gz files, or programs that are only supported for a couple of Red Hat versions.

Look at all of the versions on the download page for Opera. There are 12 different files that you need to choose from!

Re:Perspective of a Linux neophyte

[kfg]

Well, I play chess and go for entertainment and fun, certainly waste countless hours playing them, and when I'm through have nothing to show for it except memories. Of a partially artificial reality.

I must say all I have to show for most of my real reality is memories as well.

The differene is that my chess and go sets are decades old. Computer games are designed to be used up and replaced.

They aren't games. They're heroin. With each hit having to be stronger than the last as tolerance is built up.

Pop music and adventure movies follow much the same pattern.

I consider myself a computer gamer. That is to say I spend a good deal of my time involved in playing computer games and am a member of very strong online gamer communities.

But I haven't bought a game in five years. I chose my games carefully for their real gaming value.

I installed them. They just work. I play them, but otherwise leave them alone. Like my chess set.

For me they "produce" what I intend them to and provide me with personal "profit" on my own value scale, which is admitedly rather different from the common yardstick.

But MS and the game publishers probably don't like me very much because I have provided them with very little profit as measured by their own yardsticks.

KFG

Re:Perspective of a Linux neophyte

[ckaminski]

I agree with you in a couple respects only:

Driver support. Only market penetration can fix this.
One click installs: rpm's proposed to make this a reality. The reality often is that most software has to be compiled from scratch if you want the particular features you want.

As an example, I have a particular build of unixODBC. My problem is that on my distribution, I have no idea where it's looking for it's files, because that's entirely dependent upon what someone specified in the RPM when it was built. There's no easy dependency resolution for one-click installs. Including dependencies (GTK) for something like gaim makes one-click installs impossible. This is one place where variety has killed ease of use.

Linux is so close. So damn close. So close to being powerful for the tweaker (me)... so close to being powerful for the n00b (my dad)... Solve these problems, and Linux/Unix will have a shot at conquering the world.

Re:Perspective of a Linux neophyte

[efuseekay]

I agree with your conclusions on Wintel, but disagree with your blanket judgements that games are a trap.

I've been playing games for years, arcade games, computer games, rpg, board games, chess you name it.

I certainly don't feel that they are a waste of my time, and I don't feel that they generate "completely artificial memories".

OTOH, I think games honed my analyical AND social skills. When I hang out in a chess club, I learn to interact with an assortment of people I don't meet at work/school. When I play FPS over the net, I learn to think in 3D, and make splitsecond decisions (FPS are not as mindless as you may think they are). When I spend hours playing a strategic wargame, I learned a lot of military history.

I might not be Bill Gates and have a billion bucks. But I do like to think that part of who I am came from the fact that I played, and still play, games.

Re:Perspective of a Linux neophyte

[Sunnan]

This is also great for the corporate desktop, because you can give the secretary just the few apps she's allowed and nothing more.

How frustrating for hir it could become if that app selection is too small - what if s/he wants to do a small script to sort the mail, or other work-saving little things?

"This should contribute greatly to computer literacy, especially because many of the people thus exposed will be secretaries taught by society that they are incapable of doing mathematics, and unable to imagine for a moment that they can learn to program."--The Emacs Paper.

Re:Perspective of a Linux neophyte

[iota]

That is wrong. A working office suite is not enough.

I think we agree here. I was responding to the concept that "there can only be one desktop if linux is to be used by the average person", which I completely disagree with. What I think you are saying is something like "for any desktop to be successful it must have support from the hardware manufacturers", which I agree with.
And given that support, I believe the diversity of applications will turn out to be a good thing, not a hinderance.

Re:Perspective of a Linux neophyte

[Apreche]

You were doing great up until you got to that part about the "RTFM Crowd". You definitely mispercieve them. When someone says RTFM what they are actually saying in fewer words is "You aren't going to learn by me doing it for you. Only by reading the manual and by doing it yourself will you understand what you are doing and become proficient." They WANT more people to use linux. Can you imagine a *nix zealot telling someone to use windows? no! They just realize it would be a waste of time to explain some things better of learned on your own. The gentoo forums I think are a great example of what's great about linux. If you have a specific question it always gets answered promptly and helpfully. If you ask a broad question like "how do I install this?" You get a helpful hint and a link to the appropriate manual.

When someone says RTFM they are saying, I'm not going to type the answer to you because it is already written down. Go read it.

Re:Perspective of a Linux neophyte

[marcello_dl]

Exactly.

A double click for an install doesn't mean an easy install, if later one has to check for registry entries, conflicts, dependencies.

An easy install is one that doesn't break things.

Re:Perspective of a Linux neophyte

[hungfarlow]

This exists/existed. That is exactly what the Iopener was. I got one for grandma. She loves it to this day.(She is 86). The next best thing that I have seen is OEOne, which is a desktop created based on Mozilla components and runs on top of Linux.

Re:Perspective of a Linux neophyte

[Daengbo]

You posted while I was searching for the link... Here it is anyways. Interesting project, though it appears to be stuck back on RH7.3.

Re:Perspective of a Linux neophyte

[bobbuck]

I would agree that it's going to be hard to put a GNU/Linux computer in front of a average guy and have him do whatever he wants with it. But the same is true for Windows. The average guy can't keep a Windows system going for more than a few months without major performance/stablility issues. The real reason that people think Windows is easier is that it's familiar and the 3rd party user space applications are often more slick.

Re:Perspective of a Linux neophyte

[torpor]

They aren't games. They're heroin. With each hit having to be stronger than the last as tolerance is built up.

Bingo.

Online gaming communities, well that can lead to good things, I know that. But it can also get pretty crackhouse at times too ...

I also play go, incidentally. Not very good, but getting better every time I play.

Re:Perspective of a Linux neophyte

[Vireo]

i blame microsoft of course. tweaking and upgrading and re-installing and installing and 'software choice' is just a way of getting you locked into a constant crackhouse fit.

This is absurd. I feel the need for upgrading software much, much more often on Linux than on Windows, since new versions of about all the programs I regularly use pops up every week, with improved stability, new very interesting features, etc. This is of course due to the nature of open source software.

However, installing these upgrades really is a hassle. Sometimes, just sometimes, urpmi (I use Mandrake) just will find the RPM and install it seamlessly. More often, I have to install a bunch of dependancies; sometimes, these degenerates (e.g some Texstar packages actually require a newer version of KDE altogether).

Then again, sometimes you just can't find a RPM, so you use custom installers which work like much of the installers in the Wintel world (ref: the Loki installer for Quake3, UT, UT2k3, Postal2, etc., the Mozilla installer, etc.). But you'll still occasionnaly need to compile an app, and while I learned this task, it's beyond most computer users.

You seem to imply that adding software and generally tweaking our box is a "sick computer use"; well maybe, but it's what a good chunk of the computer users (gamers in particular, myself included) want to do with their computer. And they generally achieve their goal rather easily in a Windows environment.

Re:Perspective of a Linux neophyte

[FictionPimp]

Yep, i agree, I personally build a new computer everytime a new kernel comes out, or a new version of any software i'm using is released. I dont want to mess up my working machine.

Re:Perspective of a Linux neophyte

[Wateshay]

The problem is that "RTFM" comes across as very elitist, regardless of what is intended. Instead, they should respond with "I think you will find the answer you're looking for here: " and provide a link to the FM, so people can R it. A lot of neophites don't even know where the manual is, so they can't read it (and we both know that manuals for Linux software isn't always easy to find).

Re:Perspective of a Linux neophyte

[ichimunki]

Computer games are designed to be used up and replaced.

Actually most computer games are puzzles, not games. Games involve two intelligent actors striving against each other for domination. Puzzles involve using clues to find a solution. The difference between computer game/puzzles and traditional puzzles is that timing is usually a factor. The bulk of traditional puzzles, like connecting pieces to form pictures, or crosswords, or word-finds, do not depend much on the order in which the solution is found. Solitaire is an exception to this. Computer game/puzzles (from Zork through Final Fantasy) usually depend on not just finding the right pieces, but connecting them in the right order. Just like you wouldn't do the same crossword over and over, why would you play Zork over and over? Sure, some computer game/puzzles have some random elements, or some "extra" pieces you can play with, but ultimately the challenge is to make the puzzle just hard enough to make it fun to play with at all, and just easy enough to be rewarding.

What's interesting is when you get to things like computer chess, because in that case, the computer does have an intelligence-- not always sufficient to beat a human. It has algorithms which may not exactly mimic human thought processes (i.e. intelligence) but which ultimately perform the same function-- allowing for open-ended, strategy-based play. Chess is still chess whether played against the computer or against humans.

It's also curious in cases like Everquest (which I have not played), because there you have some element of striving intelligent actors, but the overarching sense I get is that it is team puzzle solving (like when my friends and I would solve the crossword as a team).

Re:Perspective of a Linux neophyte

[Anonymous Coward]

It's also a ridiculous fib -- The Linux world has as many if not more "tweakers" as the Windows world.

How else would one explain the numerous distributions, things like Gentoo, vast libraries of garbage at sf.net and freshmeat, pre-release kernels, etc.

If anything Linux is much more amenable to this type of user because virtually every aspect of the installation can be futzed with.

The only thing "sick" is you delusional fanboys.

Re:Perspective of a Linux neophyte

[smallpaul]

constant tweaking and installation of new hardware and software is not using a computer productively. using a computer productively means that the computer is operational, in the sense that it doesn't actually -need- anything further to be done to it in order to function as intended. it just works.

It is classic Linux-advocate style to redefine the user's problem to fit Linux's needs rather than the other way around. Some people like to get a new digital camera once a year. Some people like to install a new game once a month. Some people like to buy the latest and greatest MP3 players, video cards, wi-fi devices, photo printers, hand-held devices and all of it comes with software.

People want the capabilities of their computer to expand as the industry expands and new things are invented. It's a very closed mindset that says the "computer has a use and once it is set up it is static." My uses for the computer change every day (especially as a I am a progrmmer). Why should my less technical sister be restricted from a similarly expansive view of computing? If I call her up and tell her BitTorrent or iPod is the shit, it should be easy for her to install BitTorrent or an Ipod.

I'm not saying that Linux is intrinsically worse that windows at supporting dynamically changing systems: but for the average user today it is worse because of the driver and software support. That isn't Linux's "fault" but it is Linux's "problem". Not the user's problem. If you make it the user's problem they will stick with Windows and (frighteningly!) think of it as a more free and open system than the vision of Linux you are pushing.

Re:Perspective of a Linux neophyte

[bogie]

Your talking about OSS software like say Gimp, K3b, Evolution, etc which have new features added all the time right?

Well compare OSS where new improved versions are available for FREE as compared to commercial software on the Windows front where updates which add "new interesting features" cost actual money. Seems to me like OSS even with is sometimes difficult software updates is a Hell of a lot better of a deal.

My last bit of advice is something you already know. Stick with software that's packaged specficially for your distro.

Re:Perspective of a Linux neophyte

[MConlon]

When someone says RTFM they are saying, I'm not going to type the answer to you because it is already written down. Go read it.

Some people are saying that, but other people simply use it as a cop-out. Recent case in point: I'm having iceauth problems, so I've been digging through old newsgroup postings. Somebody replied to an iceauth problem post (you can probably find it on Google Groups; that's where I stumbled across it) by saying "RTFM." Look up the FM for iceauth, and tell me why this is a valid response.

The people who are saying "the answer is already written down; go read it" should give a link to the answer, and quote some of the relevant text. In other words, point the person in the right direction. Don't send them to a multi-page document without any direction.

There's a way to share specialized knowledge properly. If we're having a (verbal) conversation and you asked me what a word meant, I shouldn't reply "it's in the dictionary." Duh. Maybe you don't know how to spell the word. Maybe it's a specialized word that shows up in my medical dictionary, but not in my regular English dictionary. Maybe it's a slang term (hacker parlance, for example). Maybe you don't have easy access to the dictionary right now (you're not near one), maybe the issue is time-sensitive, and you don't have the option of getting yourself to a dictionary, etc., etc.

Assess the situation properly. Give the person enough info that they can make do in the short term, but know where to go to round things out properly. Using my "unknown word" example, tell the person what sort of word they're looking for ("it's a medical term") what the word means generally ("it has to do with XYZ") and tell them where they can get the additional info they need ("most anatomy books talk about it in detail" or "it might only be in medical dictionaries; it's spelled X-Y-Z"). Don't tell them the Latin origins of the word, what date it appeared in common usage, etc. They get that information when they go look it up.

MJC

Re:Perspective of a Linux neophyte

[Tim C]

once you get sucked into a windows way of life, upgrades and re-installs and tweaks and fixes all seem to be 'normal' ways to use the computer

Rubbish. I installed XP Pro on my machine at home when I upgraded it last January, and it just works. I've not had to upgrade it, tweak it or re-install it once I got it how I liked it. My gf's machine (bought December 2002) came with XP Home pre-installed, and that too just works, with none of the problems you cite.

I got it working, and now that it works, I use it. No need to constantly service it as you say. Sure, my Linux install is the same way, but that's beside the point.

Re:Perspective of a Linux neophyte

[claes]

The idea is not bad, but too static. A better approach would be if there was a unique id that could be matched against a database of some kind.The database could be upgraded in an apt-get manner, and it could include the latest info about the drivers.
I think this is somewhat where the HAL project is heading. That is, let vendors or others provide device info files that describes the devices. Such a file could perhaps include an URL.

(Or replace the URL with an URI, perhaps that would solve it)

Re:Perspective of a Linux neophyte

[Anonymous Coward]

Hi,

I have to agree with you, although I beg to differ your use of sick computer use.

I think linux is highly usable for the corporate Desktop, using certain preinstalled applications to do the work.
For the home desktop, it is not ready. What you call sick computer use is the normal home activity most people use computer for. They dont write reports and calculate with loads of spreadsheets, but want to manage their bankaccounts, and use the latest fashionable software. That is the entire purpose of the internet - to get new software that runs on your computer, and it's general life time is about 3 months (kaaza and the likes) after about three months something new is out that has better "essential" functionality than the previous version.
I do not believe that home useres upgrade their OS every three months to get this functionality, but rather just install new downloaded stuff from the internet. Thats what most Windows users do.

I'M running a SUSE 9.0 web install on my home machine, and believe me it's a hassle to set it up. Try installing nvidia drivers to play ET or tuxracer. It's not easy for a newbie, but thats what home users do.

Until Linux manages to sort outs it's installation process without always having to switch to root or running Yast (as a suse user) and then update this version without much hassle, Newbie homeusers will have to fight the hard learning curve to get anywhere.

Cheers,
Hanno

Re:Perspective of a Linux neophyte

[torpor]

... then again, sometimes you just can't find a RPM ...

Use the source. Open Source is about using the source.

If you can't use the source, well, learn to wait.

Here's a clue: the condition of waiting behind a few point releases is exactly -the same- for closed source software.

This happens: Typical Windows User is, typically, 3 or 4 code revisions away from the current source set, and this is not an insignificant fact.

You don't see the latest and greatest windows software, you just install the released .exe's, and don't have the -option- of seeing the 'latest and greatest' with closed-soure software, as a work in progress, until marketing/packaging gets its way...

With open source you do have access, to the very lab environment even, but this does not mean you should manically go on a re-build fest every time someone commits to a CVS tree somewhere ...

Since you are waiting for releases in .exe land, why don't you also apply a similar principle in .c land? Its a good principle.

Keep maintaining and upgrading and tweaking your systems all you like. But every minute of the day that you do things like this, is time your computer isn't actually working for you.

If your system needs to do stuff its not currently doing, then by all means, go through the hassle of getting it there, somehow, using whatever software you can use. But remember, there are tons of ways to solve problems in linux, and in fact any computer system, millions and millions and millions...

Re:Perspective of a Linux neophyte

[torpor]

It is classic Linux-advocate style to redefine the user's problem to fit Linux's needs rather than the other way around.

I fail to see how I'm changing anyones problems to suit "linux's needs", but in fact two things can happen with a problem:

a) the person can change their perspective on a problem and solve it, or
b) the problem will go unsolved

as a 'classic linux-advocate' (woohoo, at least you didn't say 'typical'!) i would like to point out that any 'classic linux user' worth their salt understands that there are countless ways to address problems in life, what matters is whichever method you use to solve it. Linux has an infinite plethora of ways to solve peoples' problems, but peoples' problems -belong- to them, not the other way around.

Some people like to get a new digital camera once a year. Some people like to install a new game once a month. Some people like to buy the latest and greatest MP3 players, video cards, wi-fi devices, photo printers, hand-held devices and all of it comes with software.

This fact is, of course, an undefeatable argument. Marketplace is what marketplace is.

But if 'peoples problems can be re-defined to solve needs', then so too can markets.

Re:Perspective of a Linux neophyte

[torpor]

well then, you sir just gave me an excuse to use my other hand.

pleased to meet you.

Re:Perspective of a Linux neophyte

[starm_]

Needless to say, as long as Linux distributions and desktop managers continue to proliferate, the average user's requirements will never be met. I say this as a *fact* not a *prescription*, so spare me the Linux-strength-in-diversity comments

Or little by little the linux descktop will become something that looks like say... OSX. And every one will be happy.

Re:Perspective of a Linux neophyte

[ClosedSource]

"Linux has an infinite plethora of ways to solve peoples' problems, but peoples' problems -belong- to them, not the other way around."

That's a perfectly reasonable philosphical position to take, but if the Linux community follows it, Linux will never be mainstream on the desktop.

Re:Perspective of a Linux neophyte

[Stevyn]

How many secretaries do you know that can or even would write a script to sort the email? This is why people buy expensive software to do that stuff for them.

Re:Perspective of a Linux neophyte

[Ugmo]

It is classic Linux-advocate style to redefine the user's problem to fit Linux's needs rather than the other way around. Some people like to get a new digital camera once a year. Some people like to install a new game once a month. Some people like to buy the latest and greatest MP3 players, video cards, wi-fi devices, photo printers, hand-held devices and all of it comes with software.

I think you and your parent post are both right. I guess if won't hurt my karma to blame Microsoft.

What the parent (this message's grandparent) is describing is a computer in a corporate environment.
What the parent is describing is a personal computer that is sitting in a place of business.

If you do Desktop support for 300-500 computers you would like them to be all the same and stay the same except for upgrades which should be run centrally not by the end user and not with a visit to the desktop.

If you are a Salesguy, or an Accountant or a Receptionist you really want the same thing even if you don't know it. IT and programmers want to mess with their computers all day and Microsoft wants to make everyone need to mess with their computers all day but users shouldn't need to. They should be able to just do their job, not do IT.

If you are a Computer savy worker you don't want the IT department messing with your computer. You want to install what you want when you want.

If you are an AOL'er at home you want to run AOL for mail, web browsing, IM etc and maybe have a word processor installed too. I know AOLer's who don't even know how to start IE.

If you are a gamer you want a different set of features.

Windows wants you to use the same exact system if you are the CTO or if you are Grandma. They want you to have IE and WMP running on all desktops. They want you to be able to install Grand Theft Auto on you PC if you are the receptionist. They want you to be able to install a program with one click on an email attachment.

This is wrong. A business desktop should not make it easy for end users to install programs. If the Linux Desktop initiatives produces a product that lets a company like IBM role out a nice consistent easy to use desktop with business apps then it won't need to have easy, one-click install of applications. It would just need to be able to install the same desktop and applications as every other PC in that class on a bare metal PC.

If I were designing things I would create an installer that would call an install/upgrade server. On the install/upgrade server would be a config file and all the packages needed. The config file would list all the packages that a desktop needs. A different config file would have different categories of user (Programmer, Receptionist, Accounting). Only appropriate programs would load onto appropriate PC's (maybe the PC's would have static IPs or you would have a different install CD/floppy for different types of computer).

All user home directories would be on another server, so if a user's PC blows up you bring a new box down to his desk, stick in a floppy, boot and it installs the complete OS and set of Apps that the user had before the explosion. The user's personal files aren't on the PC so nothing is lost or needs to be restored from backup.

If you can taylor the apps you can also taylor the hardware. The Microsoft way requires you to get a monster PC with loads of ram and a souped up graphics card for the receptionist so it can run XP. The other way, the receptionist can get something with just enough horsepower to run whatever apps she needs and no more. With the leftover money the programmer can get the monster machine s/he deserves :)

Workers aren't wasting time installing games. Viruses are not getting installed through random clicks on web pages and email attachments. For a business and an IT department it is a much better world.

This type of Desktop would not work for a Gamer/AOLer/Grandma/Home PC but IT SHOULDN'T. A business PC and a Home PC are two different things. Just because Microsoft wants you to think they aren't doesn't mean it is true.

Other Desktops can be created for each specific use of the above.

Re:Perspective of a Linux neophyte

[DrXym]

When I refer to the RFM crowd I am referring to the knee jerks who pick up on any suggestion that Linux be made easier (i.e. that comparable tasks to Windows / Mac take a comparable amount of time), by ranting about unskilled users or suggesting you RTFM.

Can't connect to your ISP? RTFM. Can't get 3d working on your graphics card? RTFM. Can't change screen resolution? RTFM. Can't create a shortcut on your desktop? RTFM.

And so on. It's transparently obvious to some that such issues are the fault of the dist, not the user, but that doesn't stop the snorting superiority and outrage. Suggest it on Linux Today that [insert dist here] has a fault and watch the reaction.

Re:Perspective of a Linux neophyte

[Anonymous Coward]

errr... that would be "get your fast computer" for the slow OpenOffice.

Re:Perspective of a Linux neophyte

[Anonymous Coward]

This is a load of bullshit from the "we know how you should use your computer best" terrorist. If you dont think that I should install any new programs and hardware on my computer, you probably also see the world in a way that says "women should be covered from head to toe", women should not be allowed to travel alone,e tc... What is this bullshit hardcore attitude that you know how some one else should you their computer? What makes you think that you are so productive because you cling on to the same old programs and neveer try something new? A productive computer should be able to do whatever its use intends to do, be it installing new software or hardware or whatever else.

Re:Perspective of a Linux neophyte

[Robert The Coward]

You never installed a service pack or hotfix. please give me you IP address I would like a new IRC server to work with. All OS require some form of maintance to keep them working the questions are how often, how many, how long, can it be done from remote.

Re:Perspective of a Linux neophyte

[Sunnan]

I know several that could and would. Not everybody, but more than you'd think.

Re:Perspective of a Linux neophyte

[Degrees]

Except....

First off, I am a Linux newbie. My mouse is dying. I am having to smack the left button rather hard to get it to register. I have used a Logitech MX310 on a Windows machine - it has five buttons plus a wheel (six buttons, if you count depressing the wheel) and great Windows drivers. Two buttons are dedicated to 'page forward / page back' for web surfing. I loved it.

So I need a new mouse for my Linux box, and I know of a good mouse on Windows. Should I buy the Logitech MX310?

They want to be able to go to a third party software/driver website, follow the 'click here for Linux version' hyperlink, download the file, then double-click to install it.

This would answer the question for me - and make myself self-sufficient.

What I have done, is borrowed the MX310 and hooked it up to the Linux machine. It kinda/sorta worked. Went exploring on the web some more, and it appears I am going to have to dink with XFree86Config or some such thing.

I'm not feeling the love here, people. ;-)

I'm not a complete computer idiot, but as a newbie, I see this configuration stuff is harder than it ought to be. Simple hardware upgrades should not require the employ of gear-head.

Don't get me wrong - I like Linux. But I won't be installing it on my Dad's computer anytime soon, because he would buy some new accessory, and then call me to get it installed.

The biggest obstacle is IT support departments

[GonzoDave]

Getting the office running on Linux might actually require work.

Re:The biggest obstacle is IT support departments

[krewemaynard]

i think a bigger problem would be users, asking questions like, "hey, where's my Start button? where's outlook express? what's with this mozilla dragon thingy?!"

then there's the calls to tech support when the virus-laden attatchments won't open and install like they're supposed to...

--krewe

Re:Working group representing a consortium of vend

[__past__]

No, the spirit of free software is that we don't have to use it if it sucks, because we can just build something similar, but better. (Or something completely different, of course)

Re:Working group representing a consortium of vend

[The One KEA]

I agree with you - if there's no user input on how the distro should be laid out, how it should interact with the user and how similar it should be to Mcrisoft operating systems, then how is this going to succeed?

Server sales counting as desktop sales?

[gmania]

From the article:

According to market research firm IDC, paid shipments of Linux rose to 2.8 percent of desktop operating systems in 2002, up from 1.7 percent two years earlier. In 2004, it is expected to surpass the total new product shipments for the Mac OS.

For some reason this doesn't quite match my own subjective perceptions. I know a lot of Mac buyers, a lot of linux users, but not that many linux desktop OS buyers. Isn't the majority of Linux sales directed to the server market? Or they mixing the figures as they go along? Pity there is no link provided for the research.

Re:Server sales counting as desktop sales?

[ichimunki]

I think you're thinking machine sales (which for Mac == 1 OS sale as well). When you start to count the number of desktop-targeted distros sold at retail, that's when you see that Linux is selling well in comparison to Mac OS. My case would be a perfect example. Paid once for a Mac. Paid twice for Yellow Dog Linux (1.2, 2.0) to put on that Mac. Which points up the problems with equating sales with market share... but the quote you quoted clearly is about "paid shipments".

Re:Server sales counting as desktop sales?

[Coryoth]

Something else to note is that OSDL is targetting the corporate desktop. Sure, you don't know a lot of friends who are buying Linux desktops, but then there aren't that many businesses (outside print/design/media businesses) that are buying Macs - meanwhile there _are_ more businesses deploying Linux across their desktops. You eefectively have a very niche sample if you just run on perception.

Jedidiah.

Thats evolution

[gowen]

Linux : going from competing desktops to competing desktop initiatives...

Re:Thats evolution

[ciroknight]

you forgot one

Re:Thats evolution

[bruthasj]

Not sure, but I'd think OSDL's focus would be more kernel-space modifications and/or optimizations to make the desktop better. I doubt they'll care about distros or desktops. Focus should be on kernel X interaction, improved drivers, including better peripheral support for the home market.

Re:Thats evolution

[Quirk]

Your sig.

The Marx Brothers

Chico, Harpo, Groucho, Gummo, Zeppo

freedesktop.org

[alexc]

I wonder if they will be working with freedesktop.org? it might be a good idea. ... or maybe not.

Re:freedesktop.org

[!the!bad!fish!]

From the article:

The overall working group objectives have been developed by an exploratory committee with representatives from freedesktop.org, HP, IBM, Intel, Novell, OSDL, Red Hat and Sun Microsystems.

That'll be a yes.

Linux on the desktop

[sql*kitten]

Sun recently sent me a CD with their Java Desktop on it, which for anyone who doesn't know, is a slickly-packaged Linux distro with a very user friendly interface, Sun's excellent StarOffice suite, Mozilla, etc etc. I've been having a play with it (I use StarOffice on Windows anyway) and I'm quite impressed. It's all nicely integrated with a mostly consistent look and feel, for the end user there's no messing around, anyone who's familiar with Windows and MS Office could pick this up in a day and be productive. As an old-skool Unix user, I'd personally prefer a NeXTSTEP or IRIX desktop, but as a normal Windows user, JDS is impressive.

That's the way to do Linux on the desktop - it has to be as near as possible seamless. Someone who knows what they're doing has to sit down and make it all work. Bundling together a package here and a package there as Red hat does just isn't going to cut it. If the objective is to actually get Linux on the desktop, then OSDN should throw its lot in with Sun. But it looks like this "initiative" is just bandwagoneering.

Re:Linux on the desktop

[!the!bad!fish!]

...If the objective is to actually get Linux on the desktop, then OSDN should throw its lot in with Sun.

From the article:

The overall working group objectives have been developed by an exploratory committee with representatives from freedesktop.org, HP, IBM, Intel, Novell, OSDL, Red Hat and Sun Microsystems.

It seems like they have.

Re:Linux on the desktop

[turgid]

I'd personally prefer a NeXTSTEP or IRIX desktop

So what do you think of GNUstep?

Re:Linux on the desktop

[phishtrader]

At $100/year for a single user license ($50 promo) how can this compete with WinXP? For most systems, the OS that the machine has installed for the better part of it's life is the one that either came with it or was installed on it when it was first put into use. Considering this might be say three to five years, you're looking at $500 per seat over those five years. Seems to me that for a distro to really become widespread on the desktop it will have to be considerablly better than whatever MS is offering as well as cheaper.

Re:Linux on the desktop

[zaphod]

You also need to consider you are getting StarOffice for that same $100/year.

Re:Linux on the desktop

[Anonymous Coward]

Typical MS Site Licence doesn't come close to $100/year, and it includes MS Office and all the network CALs.

Re:Linux on the desktop

[phishtrader]

OpenOffice is free.

Re:Linux on the desktop

[starm_]

Yeah I think if they put enough effort into it the sun distribution could become something big.

They already have a good reputation. I would exepect their product to be stable and well designed. Plus they are direct competition to Microsft. (Sun + Java) = (Windows + C# .net). Plus it has the advantage of being compatible with free software!

Re:Linux on the desktop

[Anonymous Coward]

You are right. With all the extra crapplications you didn't even need and the extra licenses because you can't legally reload a laptop with a ghost image using the license that came with the laptop, MS can't get anywhere close to $100 a year. It's a wonder people have just recently woken up to what a rip off they are.

Business desktop vs Home desktop

[tr0llb4rt0]

Linux is ready for the business desktop.

Until the hardware manufacturers put as much effort into Linux drivers as they do for Windows drivers then home Linux desktop pc's will be restricted to the geek community.

That and the old old topic of gaming support. :-D

Re:Business desktop vs Home desktop

[torpor]

Linux is ready for the business desktop.

linux is ready for a lot of other desktops too, such as the audio desktop, the gadget desktop, the flight-control-software desktop, the surveillance desktop, the list-goes-on desktop ...

Re:Business desktop vs Home desktop

[16K Ram Pack]

If the desktops go Linux, the games will too.

As for drivers, I think that the next 2 years will see a shift. Manufacturers will realise that they *have* to release a Linux driver.

Re:Business desktop vs Home desktop

[Elektroschock]

I think the only think that wasn't helpful in the run for the desktop were the various desktop initiatives: wasted money. Put 30 million in Wine, switch RedHat to KDE, help to improve various tools like Hbasic and we will enter the destop soon.

Re:Business desktop vs Home desktop

[fermion]

This is another example of setting arbitrary standards. Windows does not, has not, and probably never will put more thought into drivers. Over the past few years Windows drivers have become much more logical, but you still need a different driver for each version of windows.

The reason that hardware works on Windows is that it is worth the vendors time to tweak the hardware so it will work seamlessly with Windows. It is interesting to note in other OS, hardware has been had the ability to work seamlessly for years. For instance, I recall trying to install an Iomega drive in Windows back 5 or 6 years ago. On the other "toy" OS, it was plug and play. On Windows, one had to manually install drivers via the command line.

The reality is that people expect to have to fuss with Windows. They think it is the only thing out there, and for some it is, so hacking it for hours and paying hundreds of dollars for support is acceptable. Users do not want to go to the moster they do not know. I run a home Windows desktop. It doesn't work as well as it should. I run it because the person wants to run Windows because they can get all the software for basically nothing.

Re:Business desktop vs Home desktop

[jsebrech]

With winex and a plethora of linux ports, linux has better gaming support than the mac. You never hear people say "oh, macs are nice, but they're just not desktop machines." Using lack of games as excuse for claiming linux isn't ready for the desktop is just that, an excuse, and a poor one at it.

I agree about the driver thing, in specific situations. If you buy new hardware with linux preinstalled, like most businesses would, this is just not an issue. For home users though, this is a problem. Having said that, I run linux on ALL my home machines, and haven't had any significant hardware problems that I didn't have in windows as well (scanner that has no driver, but I can't get it to work in anything newer than w98 either).

Re:Business desktop vs Home desktop

[renoX]

>If the desktops go Linux, the games will too.

And for the home desktop usage adoption, there must be games first, a classic vicious circle which may slow down Linux adoption on home desktop for quite some times..

And there is the problem of dual boot, many users with Linux dual boot with Windows to play games for example, so the market of Linux's game is likely to stay limited for quite some time..

Dual boot is convenient but has some disadvantages, usually when you use one OS you long for some of the advantage of the other OS.
And you must patch twice your computer, backup twice, etc..

Re:Business desktop vs Home desktop

[renoX]

>You never hear people say "oh, macs are nice, but they're just not desktop machines."

No but they say macs are nice, but if you want to play games on your computer, don't get a Mac.

Lack of gaming on Mac and Linux has and will slow down adoption for some desktop usage, that's a fact and putting your head in the sand won't change it..

I know that is the reason I'm not using Linux.. Does WineX support IL2 Forgotten Battle ? Without slowing down the framerate (it is already a resource hog!) ?

I really doubt it..

MOD PARENT UP.

[The One KEA]

You are absolutely right, sir - Linux is perfect for desktops which have a very narrow set of duties that will rarely be breached by the person using it.

However, your comments about being able to avoid the CLI and double-click to install Linux drivers is a little bit far-fetched, IMO - no matter how useful the GUI becomes, I believe that a Linux system will always have a fully-featured CLI available for the end-user. The CLI isn't going to go away anytime soon, and I don't think I'd want to use a distro where it had. As for being able to double-click to install drivers, that's almost possible right now - the Gentoo ebuild system could probably be adapted to this fairly easily. However, this would only work if the company you were downloading the driver from did not distribute the driver in binary form - Linus has said over and over that binary modules will never be formally supported, so unless the company is willing to track internal API changes in the 2.6/2.8/3.0/whatever kernels, then it will have to release their drivers as source.

You have a point about Linux desktops - but I don't want to see the CLI go away, and I don't think the attitudes of hardware manufacturers will be changing anytime soon.

Re:MOD PARENT UP.

[radionotme]

No-one has said that the CLI has to go away. MS Windows CLI may not be as full-featured and may be hidden in the depths of the start menu now, but its never disappeared. What we need is for the CLI to not be essential, and for a GUI to be available to the end-user for most if not all tasks.

Re:MOD PARENT UP.

[Anonymous Coward]

What we need is for the CLI to not be essential, and for a GUI to be available to the end-user for most if not all tasks.

So, um, kind of like it is now, only more so, then.

Can you identify more than two or three common tasks for which there is not a GUI available in Linux? The only thing I can think of that I have to drop to a CLI for these days is compiling software myself, which is something that Joe User simply won't be doing.

I don't know

[debilo]

Global consortium to accelerate Linux use on the desktop in multiple areas of enterprise computing
The shared goal is to create a forum where a range of desktop usage models can be studied with recommendations on improvements to encourage broader adoption of Linux.

Seems like all they want to do is spend some money on research. Yeah, I know, market research is important, especially in the corporate world. But with such big names behind OSDL, I'd rather see them actively contributing more (time, code and money) to projects like KDE and GNOME, and even X and forks of X.

Also, I'm a little disappointed they're only focused on the enterprise world.

Re:I don't know

[foniksonik]

"Also, I'm a little disappointed they're only focused on the enterprise world."

They've got to start somewhere. May as well be somewhere they can make some money to put back into the investment... hopefully they will.

Getting people to turn off Windows

[192939495969798999]

The big problem isn't that Linux is particularly bad or anything, it's that many, many people already have Windows. As bad as Windows might be, it's really annoying and fear-inducing for bosses to imagine taking down all their machines and installing a different O/S on them. The meeting should be on how to get people to switch o/s's, not how to implement linux. Once people aren't scared to switch an o/s, then all will be well.

Re:Getting people to turn off Windows

[!the!bad!fish!]

From the Q&A:

Is this an effort to replace Windows desktops with Linux?

1. No. The taskforce specifically identified a range of business computing usage models to investigate, not just that of knowledge worker productivity. The Working group will examine both end-to-end Linux solutions as well as interoperability with other operating systems used in business

Too Little Too Late?

[turgid]

This JDS from Sun has quite a head start. How can they compete?

Re:Too Little Too Late?

[pubjames]

How can they compete?

Why compete? Creating standards is about co-operation, not competition.

Re:Too Little Too Late?

[Lispy]

alright. No Sun bashing intended but somehow I just dont get why the JDS is perceived as such a revolutionary thing. Itsnice and all but I guess there isnt much what I cant do with a stock Slack9.1 and Dropline-Gnome, or name your favourite Distro (Debian, Mandrake or even Xandros etc.) I really dont get why its such a big thing. Just because its SUN and they signed a deal with Walmart? Come on. I personally dont even like the implementation too much. Many different Widgetsets, a substandard OpenOffice.org finish (the ximianized version is MUCH smoother), and not even a chance to run KDE apps out of the box, or a decent enduser autoupdate system, such as RedCarpet. Is this really such a big jump forward compared to other distros?

cu,
Lispy

Re:Too Little Too Late?

[turgid]

I like Slackware too, but when I'm CEO of my own multi-million $ international corporation, I'll be looking for something cheaper to install on all my desktops and better integrated (for my non-IT geek staff to use) rather than the hackers' favourite distro(TM) + random bleeding edge untested and not particularly well integrated desktop environment. That's what I like to do in my spare time at home.

Re:Too Little Too Late?

[turgid]

Er, um, but, well, if someone already has deployed many units first, and some shambling comittee tries to come up with a "standard" which won't be here until manyana, whose system is going to become the de facto standard?

Horse bolts, stable door closes or something.

Re:Too Little Too Late?

[Lispy]

Ok. Mailing Pat when Im in trouble might NOT be an option in a more than 2000 Desktops network. I see your point! ;-)

Skiing

[Mr_Silver]

I've been skiing now for 5 years. Last year I decided to try Snowboarding for a bit.

(Mods: this is on topic - bear with me)

So off I went to France. It was beautiful, perfect snow, lovely mountains, perfect pistes. I put on my snowboard and started to learn.

The problem I came across was that I couldn't do anything I wanted to. I could see where I wanted to go (I wanted to hit the slopes dammit!) but I completely lacked the skill required to get there.

After half a day, I'm ashamed to say I gave up. I was only there for 3 days and i'd wasted some of that precious time getting absolutely nowhere. So I put on my ski's, hit the reds and blacks and had a fantastic 2.5 days.

Linux is like that for me. I like it, I want to use it, the problem is that I think of it as a tool to do something else and I just end up getting frustrated because i can't do the boring things really quickly because i'm too ingraned in the Windows way of doing it.

I can change the display resolution quickly in Windows. I have to faff about in Linux. I can install items in Windows with a few point and clicks. Everything i've tried to install under Linux has botched up through my own general incompetance. The very basic of things takes 5 times as long and I get frustrated and eventually switch back to Windows (I still can't dial up under Linux, it refuses to recognise my external Hayes modem and KPPP dies horribly with some error message - the Gnome one hangs on startup).

Whilst Linux on the desktop might not be totally there, it's biggest problem is not that, but of people like me who don't have the patience to learn how to do the things (that they can do really quickly under Windows) differently.

Re:Skiing

[Anonymous Coward]

Try CTRL plus ALT plus + or CTRL plus ALT plus -

Or if using Mandrake, there's more options in Mandrake Control Center (drakconf) under Hardware->Change your screen resolution

I don't know how to snowboard, and have only tried skiing once. It was ok, had it's ups and downs. Perhaps if you did more serious computer geeking instead of skiing you would know about such things as changing screen resolution. But no, you've got to be swooshing about in the real world.... (note to self, visit real world to buy more coffee).

Re:Skiing

[makapuf]

use last mandrake (some other distro have, I'm sure, about the same level of polish) :

You can change the display resolution quickly in Windows. : ctrl-alt-+/- on X, and next version with the xrandr extension (i think), will have a control panel for it in main desktops.

I can install items in Windows with a few point and clicks. : on mandrake, you signle clic on one item, dependencies are automatically resolved and the thing is installed. You just have to enter the root password.
For your modem, I don't know, but generally, yes h/w support is stilla pb on linux.

And that's true, snowboarding is hard on the beginning. don't give up, after the first day it'll be a bliss. Like Linux. Except linux has not been ported to a snowboard. yet.

Re:Skiing

[QuiK_ChaoS]

Well, what was the reason you wanted to try snowboarding? What drove you to give 1/6th of your trip on something you weren't sure you could do or would like?

I am only asking this because it is the same drive that brought me to Red Hat 5.2 back in 97'. I have had a pretty rough time making my Linux installations useful, and able to be productive worksatations, but there is still some kind of thurst that has me enthralled today.

It sounds to me like your drive to try Linux wasn't to see what it was, but to see if it was better that what you already had.

That's the reason I am still happy with my half-ass'd install of Gentoo, 7 years later.

Re:Skiing

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes,

However if your skis randomly broke and you had no way of fixing them and when you tell people this they mutter things about 3rd party ski wax.

I'd bet then you'd be a regular snowboard rider.

Re:Skiing

[TheSunborn]

But the problem with ctrl-alt +/- is that you only switch between predefined resolutions/coler-depths. And most users don't even know how to predifine theese. It took me over a year to find out how to remove all the 8/16 bit versions of all my resolutions. Now atleast I can just switch between resolutions widtout worry that it might only be 8/16 bit depth.

Martin Tilsted

Re:Skiing

[efuseekay]

I've been skateboarding for years....but then I decided to try skiing.

(ditto your post).

I've been almost linux for the past 5 years, and I have no idea how to do even "simple" things in windows now. (I recall staring, embarrassed, at my mom's winXP and not knowing how to change the dial-up phone number to a new ISP.)

It's about getting used to things.

Re:Skiing

[Xolotl]

and next version with the xrandr extension (i think), will have a control panel for it

And this is precisely the point: its only the next version, with an extension, which will have a feature which has been on Windows for 8 years , on Macs for 10, and which users are used to. And resolution is just one of many little things like that.

Now I use Linux at home and at work, practically all of the time, and to me changing resultion or reconfiguring X is a few seconds in vi or on the command line. Clicky panels make no difference. But to an ordinary Windows user a move to Linux often means that they are suddenly faced with (what seems to be) an unfriendly environment which doesn't (seem to) have the features they expect. Sure, it's all there somewhere, but first impressions count, and that's what puts many people off.

Linux desktop developers need to work on impressions just as much as Apple and MS do. They're getting much better at it with Gnome and KDE, but there's still a lot to be done.

Re:Skiing

[WindBourne]

Yeah, I totally understand. I have been helping my father move to linux and he always ends up back in windows (partially due to my brother trying to push him there). Part of the problem is configuration, but the other part is the apps. I have finally moved him the lotus suite to OpenOffice, but he still uses Lotus Organizer and Quicken. I thought that GnuCash was work for Quicken, but no. Interestingly now, he is considering moving to Outlook for Organizer and Money for Quicken.

The frustruating thing to me, is that I have taught at Intuit and know that several of the geeks ported Quicken and Turbo Tax to Linux (several years ago), but that the sales staff fought against it.

Likewise, IBM pushes Linux, yet All of the Lotus remains on windows. Sad.

Re:Skiing

[WindBourne]

On a side note, it is possible that my brother may finally stop his actions.

He was trying to get ahead in his company (A defense company) so was learning MS as that was what they ran. I kept trying to get him to learn Unix/Linux as I told him that they company would have no choice but to change (security is a big issue).

Apparently 3 months ago, they announced that they were now looking for Linux staff to move all that they had, to MS. They have already put a freeze on moving anybody up via the MS avenue and will only consider those with Linux training or useage. Worse, they are now looking out of house and have told him that if he works hard on Linux, maybe in a year or 2, he can move up. What a waste of time.

Re:Skiing

[Tim C]

ctrl-alt-+/- changes the resolution, but not the "size" of the desktop; effectively, it zooms you in or out. That's absolutely not what the majority of people would expect or want to happen.

Yes, you can argue that that's because the majority of people are used to the way that Windows (and MacOS/OSX?) does it, but that's not the point. That's a niggling little irritation to some of us, but to people trying to come from Windows it's a show stopper. For them, it seems as though you have to choose your resolution when you install the OS, and from then on you're stuck either with that, or some weird half-way between thing.

Hell, I once hand-crafted mode lines because an install didn't have them for my monitor, and *I* can't be bothered to have to shut down X, log in as root, edit the XF86Config file to set the resolution, log out and restart X. No, it's not something you have to do very often, but when you do, it's a pain.

Re:Skiing

[steveha]

IBM pushes Linux, yet All of the Lotus remains on windows. Sad.

I think what is happening with Lotus stuff is that it's simply being allowed to age out. IBM is pushing free software solutions, and not trying very hard to drag the older proprietary solutions into the free software world.

The Lotus office applications never went anywhere against Microsoft Office. Why try to enter that fight again? The free applications are already good enough that many people don't need anything else, and they are getting better. By virtue of being free software, they have a chance of grabbing market share from Microsoft Office.

IBM should have some guys working on the free alternatives to all the Lotus apps, and just let the Lotus apps die.

steveha

Re:Skiing

[freeze128]

With respect to your modem, I can understand what you mean. The flexibility of all the terminal programs is VERY great.... Too Great, in fact. It requires all sorts of little settings that the average desktop user doesn't know about, and may take years to learn.

You think they even understand the difference between bps and BAUD? What XON/XOFF is? What a stop bit is? Hardware or software flow control? Which one their modem uses? It would be a good idea to assume that if the end user doesn't know what the setting is, that they won't change it. (until something doesn't work) Then make the default settings just work out of the box with to 90% of modems that a user would install (US Robotics, SmartOne, Multitech). It wouldn't make sense to make it only compatible with the zyxel modems out of the box. But look, that's one of the options for vgetty!

Keep in Mind

[tres3]

The thing to keep in mind here is that they are most likely shooting for a corporate desktop where the secretaries will have a very limited portfolio of applications. They just need things like email, web, word processing, and a spreadsheet. Linux is an ideal client for that!

1. It doesn't catch all of the M$ viruses out there.

2. If it does catch a virus it will only blow away the user's account and not the whole computer.

3. User email accounts can be time limited to only send x messages per minute. This will further retard the proliferation of nasty email attached worms. (IP_TABLES LIMIT)

4. Software that is installed in a user's account runs with limited priviledges and is not going to muck up anything outside of the user's account. (It is also out of the reach of other users)

5. The installation and applications can be custom tailored to an organization so that there is no super-corporation dictating that ALL computers will have Winblows Media Slayer installed.

6. Trivial little things, like having the default search page be an internal corporate server, can be setup in a CD image so that everything is the way the corporation doing the deploying wants it and not the way some license agreement with Redmond mandates.

7. Documents will automatically be protected from other users by being protected in seperate home directories.

8. Usage of company computers would be limited to those people that have accounts on the computers.

9. ... etc. etc. etc.

Re:Keep in Mind

[sql*kitten]

the secretaries will have a very limited portfolio of applications. They just need things like email, web, word processing, and a spreadsheet

Add an X server to that list and you've got a suitable desktop for a developer too. The desktop system processor can handle all the local GUI intensive stuff like spreadsheets, a central server can handle compiling.

Problem is, your average developer is too addicted to his winamp, icq, etc etc...

Re:Keep in Mind

[Anonymous Coward]

"1. It doesn't catch all of the M$ viruses out there."

A properly configured Windows environment won't either.

"2. If it does catch a virus it will only blow away the user's account and not the whole computer."

Again, set up your user accounts properly, remove "Everyone/Full Control" from the drive root (among other things) and you can kiss good-bye to these sorts of issues.

"3. User email accounts can be time limited to only send x messages per minute. This will further retard the proliferation of nasty email attached worms. (IP_TABLES LIMIT)"

And you can limit your Exchange server too.

"4. Software that is installed in a user's account runs with limited priviledges and is not going to muck up anything outside of the user's account. (It is also out of the reach of other users)"

If you define your system policy and permissions correctly, it won't happen!

"5. The installation and applications can be custom tailored to an organization so that there is no super-corporation dictating that ALL computers will have Winblows Media Slayer installed."

Oh dear. Looks like someone has never even done a Windows deployment. Read the documentation.

"6. Trivial little things, like having the default search page be an internal corporate server, can be setup in a CD image so that everything is the way the corporation doing the deploying wants it and not the way some license agreement with Redmond mandates."

Domain policies. READ THE MANUAL!!!

"7. Documents will automatically be protected from other users by being protected in seperate home directories."

Seriously. Do you know even the slighest thing about configuring Windows? Does the phrase "NTFS Permissions" ring any bells?

"8. Usage of company computers would be limited to those people that have accounts on the computers."

For crying out loud. With a properly setup domain and appropriate user policies, NOBODY will get near your Windows system.

PLEASE... before posting such utter crap next time, stop, think, then don't.

Re:Keep in Mind

[tres3]

Granted, my last windows deployment of any size was NT 4.0 for services and workstations with workstations/98SE. I have also played with XP on a friend's computer. I have a friend that has told me these things as well as he is a windows expert. And I'll conceed those points to you in a large environment where you have windows experts everywhere.

Where you are missing the points though is in small to medium offices without any experts on scene. If you look at the default installations windows looses on every one of those points. It's default security settings are similair to those of 70's and 80's UNIX deployments that have default guest accounts! You might say that you would need a Linux expert to do these things but I say that you only need the expert once to set up the system. I've heard of many Linux deployments that just work for years on end. Windows needs to be babysat on a regular basis. I have never heard from my friends of a Windows deployment, with the exception of one machine = one service, that Windows is stable for any length of time. This is a topic that we argue about passionately. Of the few people that I actually respect their abilities in windows, it usually boils down to this. Windows, when behind a good firewall, and patched continuiously, and pet/maintained regularly, and properly configured by someone who really knows what they are doing is pretty stable. Linux, on the other hand, need merely be behind a firewall and it will work for years! Even if that Linux box is running many different services on it.

PLEASE... before posting such utter crap next time, stop, think, then don't. This is only crap from the point of view of a well trained M$ junkie. M$ has trained you to apply patches almost daily. They have trained you in how to back out patches that don't work as promised. They have trained you to wait months for a patch, even when an exploit is in the wild. And best of all, they have trained you to open the door with your wallet in hand when the M$ rep shows up and asks (just like in the commericials) "So, how much software do you want to buy today?"

Re:Keep in Mind

[tres3]

The X server is implied. Your average developer is capable of dealing with all of the above so they aren't the real problem. Problems arise when people that don't know about computers (windows or linux) start downloading software or clicking on email attachments. Besides employees can be told that they are not allowed to install any new software. I know this because my girlfriend uses my computer (Linux) and still after two years clicks to install plugins from Mozilla. Even ones that come from Microsoft and obviously won't work on Linux. she has smoked her desktop at least twice by doing this. My desktop, we both stay logged in all of the time, has never even hiccupped from her actions.

Re:Argh, preempted!

[Anonymous Coward]

Meanwhile, RMS is yet to take that initiative and is still taking sponge baths in the MIT LCS 3rd floor Men's room.

Mac SE/30

[Graymalkin]

Finally, OSDL already has working groups and specifications for Linux in data centers and in carrier grade facilities. It makes a lot of sense to get a specification for desktop systems as well. Thus far the only specifications Linux has had to brag about in Enterprise space is its comformance with the Open Group's Unix specifications. Meeting technical guidelines is great but that doesn't really demonstrate the practical ability of Linux in any environment.

A smart specification and reference implementation will let just about anybody with the know-how build Enterprise grade Linux systems. As such just about anyone will be able to compete in the business, not just the kids with big brand names.

Desktop Idea

[Linus Sixpack]

X has a big advantage of having a number of virtual desktops. Why dont distros agree to have #5 given over to documenation & monitoring. (#5 is alive) & #6 given over to Distro Specific features.

Assuming they have 6 desktops (I know you can have more) 4 would be for the user, 1 for monitoring, 1 for exceptions and warnings & 7 to reset the mouse & keyboard.

ls

Re:Desktop Idea

[foniksonik]

Dude! Why'd you have to bring Johnny 5 into this? I know that Indian CS has been news lately but going all the way back to Short Circuit? It's too much;-p

Re:Desktop Idea

[Aliencow]

It could just start one X session for the login then another one for a user, when you come back to login and someone else logs in, start a second X session, then switch with crtl-shift F8 or something...Would be nice to have that in the more user oriented distros !

Re:Desktop Idea

[bobv-pillars-net]

when you come back to login and someone else logs in, start a second X session,

Already included in KDE3. When the screensaver locks, you can either type in the password of the currently logged-in user, or click the button to start a new, conncurrent session.

'Course, as with many nifty-neato-new features, it takes some twiddling to get the configuration right, which is exactly the point of this article.

Re:Working group representing a consortium of vend

[pubjames]

We all know how good committees are at deciding things. Compromise usually leads to the lowest common denominator. Do we really want a Linux desktop that's designed by a committee? Isn't that against the whole spirit of free software?

We are talking about industry standards. Outside of the software industry, they work very well. The software industry is still in it's immature stages - like the engineering industry was before there were standard sizes for nuts and bolts - manufacturers actually deliberately made their nuts and bolts incompatible because it gave them lock-in, just as the software industry does now. Incompatible nuts and bolts seems crazy now, closed/incompatible file formats will seem crazy in the future.

Progress

[sokk]

Linux is getting closer to the easy desktop. I think it's ready as a base-system; but what gives the guys in Redmond the upperhand is the application portfolio that have been added to the Windows OS over the years. The day we get native versions of Photoshop, Dreamweaver and the other major apps on Linux - it'll be very hard to resist it. We also need Outlook/Exchange-killers. Evolution is great; but we still have a way to go.

I still haven't recommended Linux on the desktop for any friends of mine, because I know who'll get the call when they can't install their new webcam etc. (You guessed right, me). It won't be long before they ask me I hope; when they see my slick desktop -- and how well everything works. Then I'll help them.

We have KDE 3.2, Gnome 2.6 and kernel 2.6 lurking. We see more and more user friendly distros; and a rise in live-cds.

Still, when I hear people get viruses and such I can't help myself but comment it with a little: "Nope, no viruses. I use Linux."

In the end: It's hard to beat free :)

Re:Progress

[Arimus]

The trouble with no viri line is that when linux becomes mainstream the virus writers will switch their attentions to Linux and so we will end up with the odd outbreak especially as I imagine more than one or two home users will run as root all the time... despite all the warnings not to..

Even More Frustrating

[occamboy]

Your analogy is dead on, Mr. Silver.

But it's worse:

The vast bulk of the Linux world doesn't even recognize the truth of what you're saying. Whenever someone complains about Linux useability, they are told that "all you need to do is [poorly-documented two hours of time-suck here], and anyway you're just a M$ troll you swine".

The genius of M$ is that they recognize when things are hard to use, and they make 'em easier. Ten years ago they could see that their screen font rendering sucked - so they made them unsuck. I certainly have issues with M$ - sometimes they dumb things down too much, and they often are untruthful. But, let's face facts, even Windows 95 was a far more useable system for 95+% of computer users than is any current Linux distribution that I've tried.

The sad thing is that there's a lot of room for improvement on Windows. Linux can, in theory, win the battle for the desktop. But if folks don't recognize how terribly deficient it is in day-to-day usability, there's not a prayer for it.

Re:Even More Frustrating

[KingOfBLASH]

The vast bulk of the Linux world doesn't even recognize the truth of what you're saying. Whenever someone complains about Linux useability, they are told that "all you need to do is [poorly-documented two hours of time-suck here], and anyway you're just a M$ troll you swine".

I think it's actually mostly frustration with Windows users and others. Many projects are well documented, but people still come on list servs asking the question that is on page 1. So, if I'm giving my time to help out newbies, it bothers me to no end that people are wasting my time because they had no desire to read the manual. Because, Windows and Linux aren't the same operating system.

No matter how easy we make it, running linux will involve a fundamentally different skill set then running Windows. And migrating to Linux will involve reading some manuals, practicing, and possibly even lessons.

Re:Even More Frustrating

[Anonymous Coward]

No matter how easy we make it, running linux will involve a fundamentally different skill set then running Windows. And migrating to Linux will involve reading some manuals, practicing, and possibly even lessons.

So you're saying that moving a business from Windows to Linux will take time, dedication, and training. Well, If time is money, and training costs money, that means that there will be a pretty big initial cost to train their staff.

So Microsoft isn't on crack when they say linux is expensive. Even if you pony up the up-front costs to train everyone on linux, what happens when all those people quit and you have to hire a new batch of employees? what's that you say, pay for the training and downtime yet again?

nice

Re:Even More Frustrating

[KingOfBLASH]

So you're saying that moving a business from Windows to Linux will take time, dedication, and training. Well, If time is money, and training costs money, that means that there will be a pretty big initial cost to train their staff.

To truly move people off of windows will involve having the people who are using windows learn how to do what they did in windows under Linux. Some of this won't take much time and people can probably figure out in a day (i.e. how to use OpenOffice instead of MS Office, or how to operate the start menu in KDE). Some of it will take much more time (i.e. having people who can set up linux boxen).

However, I think that when you consider the cost per user of Microsoft, and that learning a new set of skills is mostly a one time cost, and that most people could become familiar enough with linux to work on an already set up system in a day or two (which is what 3/4s of people do with windows anyways), I don't think it's really that big of a cost.

Part of my complaint involves Windows users as well. People need to learn to use computers as computers. To give you an example, my mom can't find any file if she doesn't save it in the My Documents directory of windows -- so she has hundreds of files in a single directory. If she learned that directories are a tree structure, and spent time learning about how they are organized, when she saved a file in the default directory a program offered (i.e. C:\Program Files\Company\Software Name\Stuff) I wouldn't get a phone call from her asking where her files went.

Re:Even More Frustrating

[truthsearch]

I disagree that the bulk of the linux world ignores usability. The first step in most open source projects is to get something out there that works. The second step is to get in as many useful features as possible. The third step is sometimes usability. Many many projects work on usability once they have something useful in the wild. Even the linux kernel has a nice menu system with good documentation to assist in configuring. Mozilla, OpenOffice, GNOME, and KDE have been focusing primarily on usability lately. There are weak areas, especially XFree86 configuration, but as projects become more mature there is often a focus on usability.

Re:Working group representing a consortium of vend

[16K Ram Pack]

I know where you are coming from, that multiple models create a "survival of the fittest" situation rather than monocultures and lockins.

The only thing that this could do is focus everyone on creating 1 really great desktop rather than a number of (often) quite poor desktops.

To someone like me, the whole 'which windowing system to choose' debate is probably doing more harm than good to the adoption of Linux. It sometimes seems it's no longer that people choose one or the other on merit, but that battle lines have been drawn.

There's also no reason why you can't take this desktop code and use what you want and don't want from it.

Getting Linux on the desktop is to me an important objective. From a personal perspective, I don't use it because there's things I'd like to have that aren't there yet. From a more global perspective, Microsoft will attempt to crush Linux in any way possible. Convincing people to get on Linux not only increases the Linux user base, but starves Microsoft of oxygen to take on Linux. I don't believe that enough is being taken yet. It's still mostly hobbyists and a few specialists using it on the desktop. We have to get more home users and more small businesses on, and that means improving the desktop, getting the applications they need built and 'marketing' it to people.

IBM - already doing it

[GomezAdams]

We're already moving all of our internal desktop users to Linux over the next two years. There will still be dual boot for those that need it but most corporate desktop users not needing another operatng system will run pure Linux for the daily chores of email and document exchange. All my product support work is done in Java, PERL, and scripting so I can be 100% Linux for all my activities now. The default window manager will be Gnome but you can use others as your taste dictates. Most interprise applications have already been ported and the rest will be. The elephant is not only dancing but leading the parade.

Re:IBM - already doing it

[IamTheRealMike]

Care to back that up with evidence, or are we supposed to take the word of an anonymous slashdot poster?

Re:IBM - already doing it

[Clover_Kicker]

What are you using for email?

Re:IBM - already doing it

[Anonymous Coward]

Google

how hard was that?

Re:IBM - already doing it

[GomezAdams]

The Linux install disks are up on the internal LAN for IBM use only and there is even a LAN install process that includes disk partitioning. The first wave are techs that will do their own install but support is offered through the Help Desk.If you don't have access then you can't see for yourself. Sorry. The Leaked Linux Memo is well documented, even on /. IBM will be issuing new machines to IBMers with Linux installed on them in the very near future.

Re:IBM - already doing it

[GomezAdams]

Lotus under WINE IIRC.

Re:IBM - already doing it

[afree87]

Lotus Notes, you mean. They did have an office suite, too :)

There's an old Notes for UNIX, maybe the tattered remains of Lotus can fix that up. Notes is going to have to be rewritten for IBM's upcoming top-secret project anyway.

-- Afree, adolescent son of an IBM Fellow

Re:IBM - already doing it

[Clover_Kicker]

Ah.

Will IBM's left hand persuade the right hand to produce a native Linux version of Notes?

Re:Working group representing a consortium of vend

[kfg]

Yes, the engineering world has discovered that it's far more profitable to standardize bolts but proliferate drive types.

The consumer never feels they're locked in, but has to buy mulitple sets of tools, if only to remove the patented head bolt and replace it with a standard one. Very profitable for the patent holder.

The software industry seems to be learning this trick.

Witness XML, a standard for creating standards. You can claim XML compliance and yet extend it in propriatary ways. It is plain text, but the file sizes are truly gargantuan, so you need to compress them, for which you can use your own propriatary compression method. Certain outfits are now even starting to create propriatary XML parsers.

The bolts are all standard, but you still have to buy the tool.

There's one essential difference between file formats and bolt design though. Bolts aren't given extraordinary protection by the DMCA.

KFG

What's missing?

[nickos]

I don't understand. What exactly is it about Linux on the desktop (say KDE/GNOME) that is too difficult for the average user? They have some sort of menu from which they can launch applications, they have file managers, they can print files. What's missing?

Re:What's missing?

[IamTheRealMike]

Here's a few items from a private "Linux TODO list" that me and some friends maintain :

• Easy software installation. People do not want to spend an hour installing a program. Apt/yum/emerge et al are not full solutions:
  • There are not and never will be any repositories that contain all the software you want in an up to date fashion. Mixing repositories leads to big issues, see OpenCarpet.org which immediately wanted to upgrade my copy of Frozen Bubble 1.0 to Frozen Bubble 1.0 thanks to metadata mismatches.
  • There is no standard for desktop integration - why should users have to type a cryptic command in order to install software? Why not just click the icon in the webpage?
  • The status quo is that packagers don't notify software maintainers when their software is packaged, so frequently there is no way to find out what random permutation on the softwares name your repository uses short of grepping/searching the full list. Worse, some packagers choose to split things into different sized pieces, for instance on Debian to get a full Wine setup you need not just "wine" but also "wine-tools".

• Multimedia support is still weak. Today I wanted to watch the trailer for the Runaway Jury, but unfortunately Apple have monopolised the market on film trailers (I heard they pay or give free/ultra cheap hosting in order to make people use QuickTime) and, surprise, their website doesn't work well on Linux. There is no real standard location for browser plugins, nor is there any readily accepted implementation for embedding playback engines into the browser. You have to grep the page sources for the URL to the .mov, and even then it doesn't work as neither mplayer nor xine understand the MOV reference types (a proprietary form of redirect, in effect). So I can't watch the trailer.

• We need to be able to run peoples existing games, applications etc nearly flawlessly. Wine has to get a lot better first. Recently Jeremy White of CodeWeavers set an interesting challenge - given how far Wine has come in the past few years, he thinks it might be possible to have 95% of Windows apps roughly functional by the end of 2005.

That's just a random subset of things that we need in order to provide a quality desktop that most non-trivial/non-grandma users do. There are a million and one other things we need as well.

In short while a huge amount has been accomplished, there's still a huge pile left to do. Still, it's not as hopeless as it looks - the distance Linux has come since I started using it only 2 years ago is incredible. Beautiful fonts, cleaned up desktops, hugely improved artwork, maturing applications and powerful media players are just a few of the achievements I can think of.

Re:What's missing?

[Anonymous Coward]

Hardware support?

I've just installed Fedora Core 1 on a 5-year-old PC at Work. The sound card doesn't work.

Hopefully as Linux grows in popularity, we'll have better hardware support and not just written by private individuals (as great as those people are). I mean actual drivers written by manufacturers to support Linux. New devices coming onto the market with an easy-to-install driver (which means no command-line installation, guys :-).

Easy addition of new hardware?

I bought a USB Flash drive a couple of months ago. I plugged it into my Win2k box at work and it worked without me having to do ANYTHING! I tried the same thing on Linux, I had to Google for instructions on how to do it which said something along the lines of "add x line to your /etc/fstab file, create a mountpoint then mount the device on the command-line."

Easy addition of new software?

OK, I'm using Fedora. I've got a nice computer so I like lots of nice software. If I'm lucky, the software I want to install will have an RPM available. So, I download the RPM and double-click it (yes, I don't use the command-line for installing most of my software!!!).

If I'm lucky again, the software will install. If I'm unlucky, the RPM will have dependancies I don't have installed in which case I have to go hunting for more RPMs.

apt has solved this problem somewhat so now I can just run:

• apt-get update
• apt-get install frozen-bubble

... and the software should install. If I'm unlucky again, the installation will work but won't put any icons in the Gnome (or KDE) menu, so I have to go hunting around in /usr to find where this programme has installed itsself and manually add entries into the Red Hat Menu.

While Windows is not an OS I like, it does have things like software installation working reasonably well. While it still has problems with dependancies (this game needs DirectX 9, etc.), installations tend to be much smoother in Windows and you should almost never have to resort to the command line. Command line is great for /. readers, less good for the unwashed masses.

What I want to see is something like the Click-N-Run Warehouse but free, encompassing a much wider range of software, and taking care of all those nasty dependancies without me worrying about it in one click and no command line. In my opinion, Linux is worse than Windows in this respect. It's not going to be easy but Linux can (and should) be better than Windows for software installations. If Lindows can do it, why can't thousands of open source programmers around the world?

Re:What's missing?

[Anonymous Coward]

There are a huge number of reasons, and you demonstrate the primary one: "They have some sort of menu from which they can launch applications, they have file managers, they can print files."

At first glance you might not understand, but you demonstrate the problem precisly. Linux desktop enviroments are designed at the high level; there is a file manager, a way to launch applications and a way to print files. No one, and I really do mean no one, in the Linux desktop community has ever bothered to study and correct the lower level design. How should the user move a file from one place to another? How should applications be presented to the user? What does a user normally do with their file manager? What features does a user require from something like Kicker or the Gnome Panel? Even lower level; do we even need something like Kicker or the Gnome Panel?

99% of the Linux desktop enviroments come from a process of "Monkey see, Monkey do". Someone else is doing it, therefor it must be a good idea, therefore we'll do it too. There is very little apparent thought in the process, and I am certain there is very little understanding of the design and usability principles which underlie the original design which is being copied. Nor do those doing the copying apparently take the time to decide how the new feature will fit into their design. Come to that, most enviroments for Linux do not even have a guiding design!

As long as the various Linux desktops continue to imitate without understanding then they will offer a poor user experience. I'm not even claiming that they shouldn't imitate; it's just that they need to put much more thought into why they're imitating something and be able to understand the beneficial or detremental effects of their imitation.

Re:What's missing?

[nickos]

"Hardware support? ... Easy addition of new hardware? ... Easy addition of new software?"

If we exclude home users for a moment, and think about linux on the desktop in businesses, all of these problems go away - normal users do not (or should not) do any of these things; their IT support department should.

Re:What's missing?

[16K Ram Pack]

A Microsoft Access/Dbase/Paradox clone. AFAIK, there isn't one.

Preferably, it would be web based, so you'd do everything via a web interface, from importing data to changing table definitions to designing and running the forms and reports.

Re:What's missing?

[Makarakalax]

Multimedia support is still weak. Today I wanted to watch the trailer for the Runaway Jury, but unfortunately Apple have monopolised the market on film trailers (I heard they pay or give free/ultra cheap hosting in order to make people use QuickTime) and, surprise, their website doesn't work well on Linux. There is no real standard location for browser plugins, nor is there any readily accepted implementation for embedding playback engines into the browser. You have to grep the page sources for the URL to the .mov, and even then it doesn't work as neither mplayer nor xine understand the MOV reference types (a proprietary form of redirect, in effect). So I can't watch the trailer.

I just watched this trailer from the apple site (I couldn't find Runaway Jury). KMPlayer is a KPart wrapper around MPlayer. Thus it can be embedded in webpages shown with Konqueror. I went to the above page and KMPlayer was embedded in the center and it started playing the trailer straight away.

Of course it would be nice if Apple didn't have the hold they do on movie trailers, but at least there's now a way to from the comfort of your Linux based web-browser.

Personally I try to avoid trailers, they spoil the films don't you find?

Re:What's missing?

[MrHanky]

Easy software installation. People do not want to spend an hour installing a program. Apt/yum/emerge et al are not full solutions:

They are. At least apt is. Apps that don't exist in the apt repository should do as little damage as possible. Loki's installer used for my Quake III install did it just right, and Sun's installer for Star Office wasn't too bad either. Non-distro software should go into /usr/local/[appname] with most of the needed libraries in directories under that (unless they actually have an rpm or deb).

There is no standard for desktop integration - why should users have to type a cryptic command in order to install software? Why not just click the icon in the webpage?

Because this leads to a mess, like most Windows installs are (Yes, I know perfectly well that they don't have to be like that). Both my parents' computers have lots of sick little programs installed from icons on web pages, and their desktop backgrounds are cluttered with icons for useless crap, and the systems just get slower and slower (Win2k). My Debian box was constantly updated for more than 3 years without any clutter before I reinstalled from fear that I'd been rooted or trojaned (and I wanted to test the new Debian-installer. It was buggy as hell).

Messed up Linux installations are often the result of bad Windows habits. It's bad to install crap from everywhere on the web in Windows, and it's bad in Linux. Stop complaining that shooting yourself in your foot has a bad interface. Apt isn't any more difficult to use (not even from the command line - really. But graphical interfaces do exist) than clicking a bloody icon, and it saves you a lot of trouble. This is one of the things that are wrong with Windows, and we shouldn't emulate it.

I agree with the rest of your points, although the film trailers hosted by Apple work with late versions of mplayer-plugin for mozilla (installed with apt, of course).

(Oh, and I apologize for sounding like Debian Troll's Best. I actually think apt-get is a good thing for installing software.)

Re:What's missing?

[IamTheRealMike]

Sure, but most people don't use Konqueror remember, and dragging in the whole of kdelibs just to embed MPlayer is too heavyweight for most desktop users. I also can't really fathom how that works, unless you're using a much newer version of mplayer than me - I gave it the URL and it simply couldn't grok the reference media.

Re:What's missing?

[ae]

Sure, but most people don't use Konqueror remember, and dragging in the whole of kdelibs just to embed MPlayer is too heavyweight for most desktop users. I also can't really fathom how that works, unless you're using a much newer version of mplayer than me - I gave it the URL and it simply couldn't grok the reference media.

Works-for-me with Galeon 1.3.11a (should work in any Gecko-based browser), mplayerplug-in 1.0.0, MPlayer 1.0-pre3, Debian GNU/Linux.

Re:What's missing?

[Makarakalax]

KMPlayer is a KPart that controls MPlayer. Once installed it will be embedded in web pages that would usually use something like quicktime or WMP and then use MPlayer to play/stream/"whatever is going on" the media.

Indeed you have to use kdelibs and KHTML, but I'd hardly describe kdelibs too heavyweight for most desktop users! Are you sure you meant those terms? Sure kdelibs is more resource hungry than gtk and glib, but it's bearable for most people. Anyway I wasn't propping up KDE toys, I was just offering you the example.

With regard to you not being able to get the Troy trailer working with MPlayer at all, I'm at a loss. My version is 0.92, and natch you need the win32 codecs. If you can grab the mov it presumably should play.

Eazel Nautilus

[l0wland]

Is this the same that Eazel tried with Nautilus? Unfortunately, they failed.

So far, the Linux community exists modtly out of tech-people. When you look at Apple Computer, they have a separate division that purely focusses on human interface design.

Won't it be possible for people like that to spend some time on a better enduser-experience? Can GUI-development be organised in the same way as Linux' kernel-development is?

Re:Eazel Nautilus

[l0wland]

...human interface design...

Argh, that should be "Human Interaction Design"..

But my selfconfigured fvwm1 is ready...

[Anonymous Coward]

I'd edit .fvwmrc and now my Linux is "ready for the Desktop".

MOD PARENT DOWN! Stole my comment!!

[tabdelgawad]

I guess it's flattering to be greeted by your own words when you click on a story, but it doesn't change the fact that this person, Sarojin, completely plagiarized what I wrote a few months back on another desktop Linux story. He did go through the effort of changing my "Red Hat on a K6-2" to his "Mandrake on a P2-450", but I'm not sure why he bothered ...

I wish I could prove this, but I can't list any comments beyond my last 24. Honestly, why would I accuse someone I don't know of plagiarism if it weren't true?

Shame on you, Mr. Sarojin ...

What Linux is still to give me

[fluor2]

1. An active-directory similar interface for distributing software packages. E.g. right-click on a group called "Mozilla 1.5", and then just add a computer into this group. This will make the computer install Mozilla 1.5.. All other software should be compatible with this "style", like we have with MSI on Windows. We have RPM on Linux, and that should be okay to use here. Thus we need to have computers as a member of this active directory-thing... And some Domain Admin accounts that are automatically applied to computer domain members. etc. I guess I could go on and on about all Group Policy features of Active Directory. :)

2. Desktop... that actually gives me good control. Also, X crashes much too often. (Linux geeks seem to laught about that Windows has to reboot often, but I hear my users often complain that they feel their computer crashed, even if just X crashes. And I do agree, not much use in a GUI when it crashes, and the time to restart X seem to match the time to restart a normal Windows XP computer..). Also, Desktop and icons must be files, and not stupid complex data-files, which is pretty hard to modify.

Re:What Linux is still to give me

[Alioth]

I've not had X crash in a very long while (I can't remember offhand when the last time I had X die). I use X every day, I play games on the machine, I do development. I'm not just writing the odd letter in OpenOffice. X11R6 as XFree86 has been very stable on my current system (a P4 with a GeForce4 and the nVidia drivers).

I think X crashing has the same root cause as Win32 crashing (since Win2K) - bad hardware and/or bad drivers. Every time I've had a Windows crash/hang since using Win2K and WinXP has been either hardware or driver issues. The difference with X crashing and the Windows GUI crashing is that X isn't part of the kernel - I don't have to wait for the machine to reboot and all my daemons keep running. Have the Windows GUI crash and all processes are toast.

Re:What Linux is still to give me

[justsomebody]

1. opencarpet (if you wannt to do it in graphical mode) or cron job running apt-get (auto-mode)

just create and add apt repository on server, and there it is

2.a X crashes??? well maybe if you have some weird hardware, on my ATI and NVidia cards X is running perfectly.

2.b XML files are far easier to work with than small independent files. Just remember: XML is your friend,... XML is your friend,... XML is your friend,... XML is your friend,... XML is your friend,...

Re:What Linux is still to give me

[Anonymous Coward]

The difference with X crashing and the Windows GUI crashing is that X isn't part of the kernel - I don't have to wait for the machine to reboot and all my daemons keep running. Have the Windows GUI crash and all processes are toast.

But killing and restarting the X server means all connected X clients are toast. And sometimes a crashed X completely locks up your keyboard so bad that even magic-sysrq won't work. If you're not on a network/don't have sshd running, or don't have a serial console plugged in (e.g. you're on the road with a laptop), this means reboot.

Re:What Linux is still to give me

[bangular]

> We have RPM on Linux, and that should be okay to use here.

RPM's are awful. Distrubiting binaries instead of source in general is awful. The second you've linked it againest a different version of a lib it's usually unusable. The GNU build system takes care of that much better.

> An active-directory similar interface for distributing software packages.

Novell is in the process of porting ZenWorks which from what I understand can do this. Though I would find it hard to believe someone hasn't already written something to do this. It could be accomplished in a 200 line perl script.

>X crashes much too often

This I find VERY hard to believe. Xfree86 has definatly taken stability over features and has taken a lot of slack for it, but it definatly is stable. I'm running a RC (4.4.0 rc2) and don't even have problems with it. I ran 4.3.1 before that for a long time, never had problems with it. It's very agressivly compiled too. Some binary packagers have a way of turning a good program into an unstable binary (I'm looking in your direction Red Hat). Try compiling Xfree86 from source with just Make World.

>the time to restart X seem to match the time to restart a normal Windows XP computer

How are you restarting X? I can kill X with ctrl+alt+backspace and startx again in under 5 seconds.

Re:What Linux is still to give me

[IamTheRealMike]

Also, X crashes much too often

I'd consider crashing at all a serious problem, aking to a kernel panic in terms of badness. Fortunately X is pretty stable. Crashes in it are normally XVideo related in my experience.

Also, Desktop and icons must be files, and not stupid complex data-files, which is pretty hard to modify.

At least in Gnome 2.4 the "virtual" icons on the desktop are overlayed by the file manager and do not actually exist on the filing system (home, start here etc). The desktop is then made up from the files in ~/Desktop

Re:What Linux is still to give me

[spitzak]

I have to agree with others here that "X crashing" is not a problem. I have not seen X or a window manager crash in years.

Window managers crashing typically cause you to log out, or cause all the window borders and possibly other pieces of the interface to disappear.

In my experience, X crashing usually means the screen locks up. NVidea drivers about 3 years ago did this quite a bit, but I have not seen it since then. Contrary to popular belief here, an X crash really can lock your machine. First of all the portion in the kernel can die with a lock and you are really crashed (in this case the crash was portable to Windows (!), so it was certainly in Nvidea's shared code). Most X crashes, though you can still ping and ssh into the machine, almost always lock up the keyboard so Ctrl+Alt+Backspace and Ctrl+Alt+F1 do not work, which for the average user means the machine is dead. I did try to ssh in and try to kill the correct programs a few times, but that takes far longer than rebooting the machine.

So first of all, X crashes seem to be a thing of the past. Second, all the Linux defenders saying an X crash is not a flaw with Linux are wrong.

Re:What Linux is still to give me

[Phishcast]

Novell is using Ximian Red Carpet as a replacement for its ZenWorks line. Red Carpet is actually pretty nice and very easy to use.

Anarchy Online!

[ringe82]

Let's take out the GNOME Foundation so we can get rid of crap like their committee-made guidelines, their vendor-sponsored bounties and other useless upcomings from their committee members so we won't care about getting usable software.

Not to mention all other committee initiatives hindering Free Software from evolving. ;)

--
"Windows is about choice - you can mix and match software and musicplayer stuff. We believe you should have the same choice when it comes to music services." - Microsoft

choice ( P ) Pronunciation Key (chois)
1. Exclusive control by one group of the means of producing or selling acommodity or service

TrollTech joined Desktop Linux WG

[inc_x]

See press release

"The Open Source Development Labs (OSDL), [...], today announced that Trolltech has joined OSDL and will participate in the Lab's new Desktop Linux Working Group."

Don't make "Windows replacement", just replace it

[mm0mm]

From the Register:
OSDL says it isn't out to create a Microsoft Windows replacement.

... meaning, no pop-ups, no more browser hijack? (I sure will miss 'em)

I don't get it. though there are some things for ODSL/Linux vendors to learn from Windows, there are very many things that they would NOT want to learn or copy from design of the monopoly OS to replace it. Desktop Linux should not become a Widows replacement for god's sake.

Linux is superior to Windows in many aspects, while Windows has some advantages in desktop use over Linux. For business computing, security can be the primary concern. I don't say either OS is more secure than the other, but the history shows that Windows is more likely to become a target of vulnerability attacks by hackers/ spammer/ ad agencies, and that some attack attempts successfully created mess. Even though there are far more applications available in the market, Windows wouldn't be a choice of OS if I were to make decisions.

Let's face it, how difficult would it be for a person of "computer literate" (according to his/her resume) to learn how to maneuver KDE/Gnome? I don't think it would take a year. If applications are network-installed, employees on the terminal system won't have to worry about installation of application. Let the IT dept. take care of it.

If you have hundreds of Windows apps to run, use wine, codeweaver(also wine), or vmware. Running Windows on vmware/virtual PC gives you access to Windows apps and ease of security control under Linux at the same time. It's certainly better than getting hacked and filling your monitor with a bunch of pop up ads and crap because you are using Windows, or Windows replacement.

Don't make a replacement for the 'every-user-has-root-access-by-default' OS. Just let people learn and replace.

Stop comment theft! Bribe your bent polititians!

[akadruid]

These Comment Pirates are ruining the comment industry for everyone! Comments are down 2500% since last year, purely because people are stealing comments using Kazaa! You are are hurting the artists... Time for a new law in the US Congress.
Seriously, he is right, check this out...
tabdelgawad's original comment is here:
http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=70628&cid=6409 853
Compare it to Sarojin's comment:
http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=93676&cid=8041 815
The only differences are the title, and 4 words of the comment. Shame on you Sarojin!

Industrial use

[resprung]

To create a world-class desktop, an overhead vantage point is needed. I guess this'll be a stretch for the development model of free software.

Windows and Mac heads are used to a VERY strong cross-application cut and paste.

Windows has often - (no sarcasm) - exceeded expectations in this area by allowing all kinds of data to be intelligently moved from one app to another.

It's something designers rely on and use all the time.

Re:Working group representing a consortium of vend

[CommandNotFound]

We have to get more home users and more small businesses on, and that means improving the desktop, getting the applications they need built and 'marketing' it to people.

I would argue that focusing on larger business desktops would be a quicker route to the home users. People will buy a home computer to match what they have at work, not the other way around. In an enterprise, computers are chosen carefully for consistency and hardware compliance, so the desktop will run well. With a home user, you have to support every little webcam widget sold at BestBuy or Walmart, or else you lose.

If we get millions of corporate desktops established, hardware manufacturers will start supporting it, and people will start buying Linux for their homes.

And while I don't think we need to standardize on a particular window manager or desktop environment, at a minimum the Gnome/KDE environments should share lots of standards, such as clipboards, stanadard dialogs, themes, etc. I think this is what OSDL is trying to do, which is similar to freedesktop.org. Having multiple GUI toolkits is not necessarily a weakness; the same condition exists on Windows and that hasn't seemed to affect it negatively.

X settings

[Anonymous Coward]

You needn't have worried. It can't change color depth by pressing Ctrl-Alt-+/-

In fact you can't change color depth in a running XFree X server at all. 5 years ago that was pretty annoying, but now it isn't because you just set everything to 24-bit color and forget about it.

In e.g. Fedora Core and other newer distros you have two graphical apps, one for users and one for admins

The user app (in preferences) lets you change resolution in two clicks.

The admin app (in system settings) lets you change resolution and colordepth, and choose different drivers, disable 3D etc. But it requires you to log out to take effect.

Re:Working group representing a consortium of vend

[hitmark]

clipcboard handeling i see the point in strandardizing but themes and dialogs, nah. those are part of the desktop enviroment (alltho it would be interesting to have a GTK program open a kde save dialog:)

one other system i would like to see standardized are user install of programs in a package ignorant way (as in you have one file no matter if your running debian, fedora or DIY linux for that matter) but how to solve that i dont have a clue about. and as a addon to that i would love for the installer to put the program i just installed into any desktop launch menu i have by writeing itself to a list and the desktops checking the list to see what should be on the list.

A boost to Freedesktop.org

[InodoroPereyra]

If anything, this is about OSDL sponsoring Freedesktop.org

This working group is also supported by OSDL's Linux User Advisory Council, which is comprised of senior IT executives from global 500 companies. The overall working group objectives have been developed by an exploratory committee with representatives from freedesktop.org, HP, IBM, Intel, Novell, OSDL, Red Hat and Sun Microsystems.

Note that the only non-profit member of the committee is precisely freedsktop.org - For those who don't know, freedsktop.org is (in a nutshell) a common effort by the GNOME and KDE developers to develop standards to let Linux Desktop Enviroments coo- and interoperate. Things like a universal protocol for the system tray, etc.

It just makes sense to see OSDL and their corporate partners sponsor Freedesktop.org, it is a win-win investement for everyone involved ... and I would much rather see the big corps interested on GNU/Linux support Interoperability and Standards than adopt one particular technology as a "de facto standard". Way to go !

Neither Linux or Windows get it.

[gathas]

Windows does a pretty good job of making general computer tasks easy to do. What drive me nuts, as a developer, is that they take this same dumbing down restrictive philosphy to their development tools. I really find that much of dev studio just gets in my way and slows me down. Linux has just the opposite problem. Everything is designed with the developer as the target user (not intentionally mind you). This results in all of us loving Linux, because it works naturally for "us". The problem with this is that the community that makes Linux is too close too the product to see/admit that it alienates end users.

games are a trap.

[torpor]

The statement 'games are a trap' is a false negative image.

Games can also be extremely valuable engineering resources. Fun is also worth the effort to experience, as well.

But nevertheless, the nature of a trap is that it is often not what you think it actually is ... a fact which has been exploited quite well in many marketplaces.

Re:games are a trap.

[efuseekay]

But nevertheless, the nature of a trap is that it is often not what you think it actually is ... a fact which has been exploited quite well in many marketplaces.

Ok I am blissfully unaware that I am in a trap. ;P. Happy?

Re:games are a trap.

[torpor]

No. What on Earth made you think I cared?

I just like to good arguments, not that you find that many of them around here ... on slashdot ... one of the biggest wastes of time known to a very select percentage of mankind.

Re:games are a trap.

[efuseekay]

one of the biggest wastes of time known to a very select percentage of mankind.

Yeah, /. is a trap.

Re:Working group representing a consortium of vend

[Anonymous Coward]

We all know how good committees are at deciding things. Compromise usually leads to the lowest common denominator.

That's dogmatic, mechanical reasoning. In reality, it depends what the decision-making model is, and what kind of people with what kinds of ideas are on the committee.

What this one will do remains to be seen.

Double-click-to-install already works.

[Anonymous Coward]

The double-click to install already works as expected on Red Hat 8/9 and Fedora Core, all the way down to collecting and installing dependencies for you.

Ummm...

[Theatetus]

I'm confused. What exactly do you need to use the CLI for in a distro like Mandrake or SuSE? I'm trying to think of a common user task that doesn't have a decent X interface and I can't. What are you thinking of?

RIGHT...

[Anonymous Coward]

> The big problem isn't that Linux is particularly bad or anything

Hmmm, how about installing/updating software???


[root@www var]# rpm -q openssh-server
openssh-server-3.4p1-1

[root@www tmp]# rpm -Uvh openssh*.rpm
error: failed dependencies:
libc.so.6(GLIBC_2.3) is needed by openssh-3.7.1p2-1
libcrypto.so.4 is needed by openssh-3.7.1p2-1
libc.so.6(GLIBC_2.3) is needed by openssh-clients-3.7.1p2-1
libcrypto.so.4 is needed by openssh-clients-3.7.1p2-1
libc.so.6(GLIBC_2.3) is needed by openssh-server-3.7.1p2-1
libcrypto.so.4 is needed by openssh-server-3.7.1p2-1
libwrap.so.0 is needed by openssh-server-3.7.1p2-1

Ok, Let's try something else...

[root@www var]# apt-get update && apt-get upgrade ...
0 packages upgraded, 0 newly installed, 0 removed and 7 not upgraded.


Nice. I guess I'll just give up and use a copy with known exploits. :(

Slight correction

[phorm]

People will buy a home computer to match what they have at work, not the other way around.

Employees will buy a computer at home to match what they are used to at work. Mainly so they can do work at home when needed, or be up-to-date on how to use the workplace computer.

Managers, etc, on the other hand will try to match their work computer to personal preference. It's not entirely uncommon for the workers to run PC's, and the managers to run some 'leet looking Macs.

I think that part of this is due to the workers needing work software to do the job, and the managers just needing to be compatible on the basis of the office, email, and possibly scheduling/presentation software.

Close, but not really

[phorm]

but this is not the linux philosophy. the linux philosophy is: get it working, and once its working, use it.

Actually, the linux philosophy has always seemed to be more about going where you can, and not being limited by a closed OS.

Yes, it's fine to get something working. I can get a very nice GUI running on debian/stable - resembles windows enough for the windows users to cross over and with OpenOffice/evolution/mozilla for basic document/email/browsing tasks.

However, everything has a lifetime. What happens when a newer, better encryption alghorythm becomes common? You'll probably need a newer browser version to access banking sites etc that use it. But to get that browser working, you'll need to upgrade your encryption libs. You might even need to dip into "unstable" which in deb can be a jump.

Linux isn't about "getting it working," it's about the flexibility that allows it to do what you want. And if it doesn't do so yet, you have the option to make it do so yourself if you have enough knowledge.

Re:Close, but not really

[torpor]

What happens when a newer, better encryption alghorythm becomes common?

Break out the compiler, write some code, get it working, use it.

Nothing about 'get it working' means 'dont stop improving it and using it'.

And if it doesn't do so yet, you have the option to make it do so yourself if you have enough knowledge.


Right, or in other words 'get it working and use it'.

Re:Working group representing a consortium of vend

[b-baggins]

A camel is a horse designed by committee.

It's getting there, but not quite...

[ErichTheRed]

The thing that will make a Linux desktop usable is the same thing that makes Windows usable...easy installation of software and hardware.

I've played with Linux on my home PCs, and it's a great OS. Application support is great (although there are WAY too many apps even in tightly controlled distributions...) and the system itself is stable. However, Joe User is never going to want to recompile the kernel to install a sound card, or figure out which module to load, and which configuration script to put the load line into.

One thing that I have seen an improvement on is user interfaces. Is it just me, or do the stock X bitmap fonts and standard desktop layouts look like they weren't designed for humans? Come on...no one wants to stare at a 6-point xterm all day long. Redhat and a bunch of the other distributions at least distribute a sane desktop config nowadays. I know KDE and Gnome are supposed to fix this stuff, but the user experience just doesn't seem as "fluid" as Mac OSX or Windows.

I think we'll definitely see Linux on corporate desktops in huge numbers by next year. Companies would love to have a desktop PC that they can lock down completely...Windows' group policy is a start, but it's cumbersome. IT departments are longing for the return to simpler times...mainframes minus the green screens. Home users will have to wait for One True GUI on Linux, as well as real plug-and-play hardware setup.

Not only that

[phorm]

But if the game developers go linux... well

We've already seen linux proliferate into the 3d graphics and rendering biz.

And we see linux adopted by a lot of programmers

Over time, this spawns a move to 3d games...

Already some popular developers follow linux. America's Army is supposed to be quite good. Doom 3 is likely going to kick some serious butt.

Really, linux already has a strong following of "coders." If more and more of those coders happen to be game coders, then you'll see the advancement of linux games. It's not really hard to port a C++/OpenGL game between linux and windows. The core of the game itself is the same, and the APIs/language very similar. No recoding of the game itself is needed, just a recoding of wrappers.

Doom3 could be a pioneer to this. Let's say D3 support for linux is really good. If the engine is really all we expect, then it will be adopted and licensed by others for new games beyond D3. These games could also be made to easily run on linux.

Once one major game makes it to linux, the clones may follow. After that... the slide is inevitable.

Re:Not only that

[FeeDBaCK]

Doom3 could be a pioneer to this. Let's say D3 support for linux is really good. If the engine is really all we expect, then it will be adopted and licensed by others for new games beyond D3. These games could also be made to easily run on linux.

Just like how Quake2 and Quake3 were ported to Linux and all the games based on them all run on Linux, right? Just because id's engine runs on Linux easily doesn't mean its licensees will do the same.

Re:Not only that

[phorm]

I believe that these were ported afterwards though, not released off the get-go with a Linux version?

Re:Working group representing a consortium of vend

[sik0fewl]

There's one essential difference between file formats and bolt design though. Bolts aren't given extraordinary protection by the DMCA.

And don't forget that we can't use a pair of pliers on files if we don't have the proper tool.

Switching OSes

[truthsearch]

As bad as Windows might be, it's really annoying and fear-inducing for bosses to imagine taking down all their machines and installing a different O/S on them.

It doesn't stop them from doing it. Every day a department somewhere is taken offline to replace their NT with XP or 2000. They are replacing their OSes, as every Windows upgrade is a drastic change and a major outage. Every app must first be tested, and many have changes made to their code, before the replacements are done. In many situations it would be just as much work to switch from Windows to Linux as from NT to XP.

(My company's migrating from NT to XP and my team has had to modify every single application we support. And we don't do anything fancy that's unique to NT.)

Linux has been ready for ages....

[HogynCymraeg]

....it's just the supporting software that needs the tweaks. There is a distinction here...

Re:TrollTech has joined ODSL.

[Anonymous Coward]

You had to use the work "ramifications"?

Re:Stop comment theft! Bribe your bent polititians

[tabdelgawad]

Thanks! At least one person knows the truth :)

Oh well, maybe he needs the karma. Hell of a way to get it though!

Re:Working group representing a consortium of vend

[kfg]

And don't forget that we can't use a pair of pliers on files if we don't have the proper tool.

That doesn't always work.

Let's see a show of hands. How many here are old enough to remember sitting down for the first time in a GM car with a lap full Allen wrenches and screwdrivers intending to remove an interior panel and suddenly thinking:

"What the [i]fuck!?[/i]

KFG

I'm no neophyte

[poptones]

But I'm no defender of all things tux, either. All those things you mention - the cameras and ipods and all that other stuff - are third party gadgets. I don't know anyone who has a new 6MP Microsoft digital camera, or a fancy new 20GB Microsoft MP3 player, or even a cool new Microsoft handheld device. Any of these devices may or may not USE an MS operating system, but whether or not they interface well with any particular desktop is not a function of how well Microsoft supports the device - it's a function of how well the device manufacturer supports Microsoft - or any other desktop.

Quite frankly I do think Linux is getting close - but there's still no distribution I've seen that compels me to totally abandon XP or 2K. My home entertainment system uses win2k and it's one of those "just works" boxes - my greatest agony is having to open the damn case for something, and I can't recall the last time I installed new software on it (oh, wait - yeah I do: it was a few weeks ago when I plugged in a bargain bin USB digitizing tablet). I have mozilla and a dvd player and the tv tuner and it just stays like that.

But my laptop goes through constant change. Because I never have any data on it that isn't also somewhere else I feel no hesitation in trying the latest software. It's a lowly 233MHz Thinkpad 600 - it's a damn tank - and in the last several months it's had at least a half dozen different operating systems installed: RH9, Win2K, Win98, Lindows4.0, Knoppix - even an old Peanut linux. Know what it's running now? XP. Yeah, it's slow as dickens - but it's really no worse than RH9 or Lindows, even with its loaded-for-bear maximum of 288MB of RAM and 586 cpu core.

Linux has far superior program selection compared to windows. Yeah it's easy to go to zdnet and download a bunch of spyware-laden nagware that'll keep your computer teetering on the edge of sanity until the next reformat - but clicking a single button to pull up a list of all available software for your system and then clicking the "I want this button" is even easier.

Really the only problem I see with linux is it's lack of cohesiveness. It doesn't need a dozen managers, it just needs one that works. Drag and drop, cut and paste, click and run - and look good doing it. Compare it to either OSX or XP and it's still a distant third in the looks department. My little laptop looks dynamite with an XP desktop with smoothed fonts. I cannot believe after all these years of talking about "linux is almost ready for the desktop" NO ONE has fixed the goddamned fonts.

When will linux be ready for the desktop? When it has menus that don't look like shards of paper pasted from a stack of magazine clippings. Fix that and the vendors will start worrying about how their widget fits into a desktop that doesn't have a Microsoft copyright.

Re:Working group representing a consortium of vend

[ACPosterChild]

Isn't that against the whole spirit of free software?

WTF??? Why would the number or type of people have anything to do with whether or not the source is available?