To Recertify, or Not Recertify?

mckeefarley asks: "What is an out-of-work networking guy to do? Almost three years ago I worked for a systems integration company as a Senior Network Technician (with the help of an A+ cert). Two years and many certifications, later: "I am five months away from the expiration of my CCNP/DP and I question whether I should even spend the money to recertify." Would you spend the time and money to recertify, when every cent may count, and all of those pieces of paper still might not get you a job?

"The real fun and excitement was in the engineering department, and I was told the sure way in was to get my CCNA. Well I got my Sybex book, and with the help of our small lab (two Cisco routers and a catalyst switch) I received my CCNA with a [score over 90].

Thrilled as I was, the engineering department was taking some hits, and I couldn't get in. Instead of remaining stagnant I took it on myself to get my CCDA, which I got a month later. Engineering department still going down, me still wanting to rise, I looked for something else. At about this time my company was trying to get a contract working with Nortel routers and switches. 'This is my chance!', I proclaimed.

One and a half months later I was a NNCSS (Nortel Networks Certified Support Specialist), but then contract fell through. The engineering department was taking BIG hits (as was the rest of the networking industry), but I was determined. We only had one CCNP in the company, and my goal was set. With the help of the lab, and some determination, after three months I became a CCNP and CCDP.

Did I get in the engineering department?

Nope.

Did I give up?

Nope.

I got my CCIE study guide, and was all ready to rent time at a major Cisco lab at The University of Colorado, in Boulder (I am not even sure that they have this lab anymore). A month later there were two people left in the engineering department, and then was laid off.

After six months of unemployment checks and sending resumes, I gave up and decided to go back to school and do some independent consulting for some small businesses in the Denver metro area. Now, I am again looking for a full time job, and I am dealing with the same problems that I dealt with, two years ago.

I am happy to admit that all my hands on Cisco experience have not been in a production environment. I understand that the difference between the lab and the real stuff is huge. But the certs didn't, and still don't even get my foot in the door. My resume has been critiqued by many people, and is in tip-top shape. I do have experience on Gateways (Nomadix) and many switches (SMC) and have worked on some MDU engineering projects.

Any suggestions?"

Comments

If you don't have a C/S degree, get one

[tjstork]

One C/S degree > many certifications, and probably cheaper over the lifetime.

Re:If you don't have a C/S degree, get one

[Rogerborg]

There are a lot of out of work CS majors right now. Lawyers, on the other hand, seem to be in high demand.

Re:If you don't have a C/S degree, get one

[servoled]

Completely agree... a 4 year degree from an accredited institution is quickly becoming the minimum that companies will accept for most white collar jobs. The days of the technical college (or certified, they are basically the same thing) IT worker are long gone.

Re:If you don't have a C/S degree, get one

[planetmn]

And I would disagree. Sure the ads don't have a requirement, but that doesn't mean that when they go through the 100 resumes they receive for the single opening that they don't consider the degree.

In IT it might be slightly different. But as an engineer, even though I am an EE, the degree has given me a broad enough background that I can understand any engineering discipline (sp?) to a certain extent. I can read a piping diagram just as well as a structural drawing, interpret it and make a decision/recommendation based on what I know. That is valuable and important.

Put it this way, you have two candidates, one with a CS degree with a concentration in networking and one with a certificate. The college graduate spent 4 years being exposed to different technologies and is able to make decisions because of a broader exposure, while the CCNA spent a couple of months learning about Cisco products and may be no better than the toll-free sales line for making an overall decision. I don't know anyone who regrets a college degree (at least a technical based one).

That isn't to say that a degree is everything. I work with non-degreed engineers who have spent there whole life working with our final product, and they are as valuable to the company as anyone else.

-dave

Re:If you don't have a C/S degree, get one

[Akasha]

Oddly enough I'm starting law school once I get my IT degree this May and I've got more certifications than I know what to do with. My plan is to be that one lawyer that actually understands the technology that's being litigated. You know, to help stop a state doing something stupid, like banning NAT. Oh, wait a sec...

Re:If you don't have a C/S degree, get one

[fishbonez]

I've given up on getting a computer job anytime soon. My job hunt is focussed on getting a non-computer job in an area where I have some skills and experience (ie, I had to do non-computer work before when Bush I was in office). However, I plan on keeping my certifications up to date. I hoping that sooner or later I'll wind up back working with computers.

In the short term, computer jobs are going to be very difficult to land. I was replaced by someone making $3 an hour and it's hard to compete with those economics. The problem is that right now China, India, Malaysia and others are artificially keeping their currency low relative to the dollar. China is the worst with an exchange rate fixed to the US dollar. Malaysia does not have a fixed exchange rate but it is very difficult to trade Malaysian currency. India has some currency controls but not as bad as Malaysia, which is why their relative costs have gone up a little.

If these currency controls were eliminated tomorrow, we'd see a rapid increase in the cost of sending jobs overseas. But I don't think this current administration is at all concerned with doing anything to prevent jobs from going overseas. I actually heard the president say that US workers need to get education and training to compete. I have education and training but I cannot compete because the playing field is not level.

Re:If you don't have a C/S degree, get one

[TheGrayArea]

The trouble with a C/S degree now is the way the industry looks at it. They want very current skills and even if you have a C/S degree you basically end up retraining every 2 years or so. The stuff you learn is very important, but until C/S is a true practice like engineering you don't really get to build on what you've learned before as much as someone like a structural engineer or a doctor.
This whole industry is just really, really screwey right now. If you are getting a CS degree try to get a minor in something pure like Math, Biology, Chemistry, etc that is more portable than you C/S degree should things get sour.

Re:If you don't have a C/S degree, get one

[ufnoise]

I would recommend Computer Engineering or Electrical Engineering instead of a Computer Science degree. It seems that the poster's networking experience would be more aligned with the hardware perspective that these degrees offer.

Re:If you don't have a C/S degree, get one

[rufey]

I've been in the IT arena now for 10+ years, and I have no certifications. With the four jobs I've had in those 10 years, certifications didn't matter. It was my knowledge that counted. I'm currently working on my CS degree and will have it in a few years (have to take it slow because I work full time plus have a family, et al, I only have 7 classes left).

Two jobs ago we were hiring a UNIX admin and we got a lot of applicants. The person we hired stated on his cover letter that he had *NO* certifications at all. It didn't matter because we hired him based on his knowledge. I've done basically the same thing when in interviews. The question invariably comes up about what kind of experience (school, certs, work) you have, and I'm honest - I don't have certs because I could probably teach most of the cert classes that relate to the job (I'm not talking about CCIE or oracle or other high-end stuff).

That said, though, I don't know anyone in management (above entry-level superviosr) who doesn't have a degree. I'm sure there are managers out there who don't have degrees, but in today's day and age, if you don't want to be a peon the rest of your career (read: peon = bottom of the employee-manager chain), a degree will serve you well, even more than certs. My current supervisor doesn't have a degree (and isn't currently working on one), and I have more experience than him. But its an entry-level supervisor. Two management rungs above him all have at least MBA's and most have PhD's in the areas they manage (such as the engineering fields). Neither him nor I will get much higher without a degree.

Re:If you don't have a C/S degree, get one

[Trevin]

I would have to disagree with your disagreement; I think things are slightly different in CS than EE. I've been hunting jobs for the last couple of years, and the vast majority of them want N years of work experience with X language on Y systems using Z tools. The degree requirement is usually there, but not as often as the experience requirement.

Let's look, for example, at the first five companies listed in my daily Dice search:

• 3+ years of specific recent experience in HRMS version 8.x, in-depth knowledge of PeopleTools, PeopleCode and SQR. Strong knowledge of SQL a plus. Bachelor's degree or equivalent education and experience.
• Current or very recent experience at major mortgage lending institutions; Software Development P.M. Experience. No mention of a degree.
• BS degree and 8-12 years engineering experience, including Quality Engineering, and direct experience with medical device or other FDA regulated environment. Also required is knowledge and experience with electromechanical and software intensive devices.
• Must have at lease 5-10 years of experience in Mentoring and true ETL work. Experience with Cognos validating catalogs, cubes and customizing the visualization. No mention of a degree.
• At least 3 years of experience required. Extensive experience with IBM 30xx mainframe using MVS/JES2 operating system environment. Knowledge of the CA-7 job scheduling and CA-1 tape management subsystems. Strong operations background in JCL, CICS, VTAM, TSO, ISPF, and SDSF. No mention of a degree.

Add just one more generality: nearly every single job listing I've seen for gaming companies has a line like "You must have over 2 Years Video Game Programming Experience and some strong titles. This position is only for experienced video game professionals."

With requirements like these, it seems impossible to get a job unless you've already worked there before.

Re:If you don't have a C/S degree, get one

[JWSmythe]

Actually, our hiring policy (when we do it) is completely backwards, intentionally.

We've hired people with lots of certifications, who could do absolutely nothing when they walked in the door. We gave them some time, but it didn't help, and we'd have to let them go.

We've hired people who had no certifications or formal training. They had learned some programming on their own, and played with *nix machines at home. They've been our best people.

Our interviews are fairly laid back.


What jobs relative to this work environment have you done?

What do you know? Languages, hardware platforms, etc.

Are you willing to learn?

What OS's have you used personally (home)? .. at work?

If I were to hand you a broken server, could you fix it? .. demonstrate.


If I'm not sure, I may open up a console, do a little something, and then ask them to explain what I just did.

I've given people a stack of parts, and told them to build me a server, and install the OS with my CD (with instructions). I'm a bit rough. I tell them they have 10 minutes to complete it, or whatever. I just want to see how well they work. I don't really care that it takes 15 minutes, or if they encounter a problem and can't finish. I wanted to see that they made a good attempt.

I felt so sorry for one interview. This was back when I worked in a computer store. I gave him a random machine from the "repair" rack, and told him to fix it. I hadn't actually checked it out myself. I swear, just about everything was broken on that thing. I had no idea before he started, I hadn't checked it first. The customer report was "won't boot". No shit. Dead power supply, fried motherboard, etc, etc... Must have been a lightning strike (this was Florida). He looked so terrified. I watched what he was doing, and he did everything right, so he did pass, even though he didn't get it working.

All in all, I'd rather hire some Linux geek with no certs at all.

My last two best people I've hired were:

an ex-Y2k AIX programmer, with Linux and *BSD experience at home.

a "consultant" with no formal job experience, but in his words, "an OS whore". He'd used every OS out there enough to be familiar with them. He introduced *ME* to BeOS. I used it for a day. :)

It seems every time we take in someone with a degree of some sort, they're very proud of their education, but can't look beyond what they've learned.

I agree, in Fortune500-land, or for the government, you'll need or want a degree. But there are still companies who's senior tech geek (me) wants other geeks around him who actually understand and enjoy what they're doing.

(sorry to all my coworkers I just labled as "geek" if you didn't like it. hehe)

Re:If you don't have a C/S degree, get one

[monomakh]

Actually, this is the worst legal job market in institutional memory (surpassing the Great Bloodletting of 1995), particularly on the west coast. Unfortunate, since IAAL. I hear the benefits and pay at W*l*m*rt are stupendous, though, so we all have hope. I don't know as to whether the poster should get re-certified or not, but it sounds to me as if the cost/benefit goes against the certification.

Re:If you don't have a C/S degree, get one

[Sivaram_Velauthapill]

Ignoring the case where capitalism collapses (which I think it will but let's not go there), I think what will happen is that USA will have to devalue their currency. Devaluing the currency will automatically make imports more expensive and result in the elimination of the present situation where people consume more than they "should". However, devaluing the currency will decrease US standard of living.

--OFF TOPIC--

If you want to know what I think will happen with the capitalism collapse case, here it is. Ok, this is just my theory and yes, it sounds very foolish to the capitalists :) I think if foreigners stop investing in USA, USA will collapse. This will happen because USA won't be able to pay off the debt (or at least get it into manageable levels). Difficulties on the debt front will cause USA to significantly cut government, eliminating most branches of governemnt. This will throw even more unemployed workers into the mix. These actions will be similar to what happens in many poor countries (with debt problems). In these poor countries, because of IMF pressure, the government is shrunk, resulting in many unemployed government employees. This results in higher unemployed and it never EVER gets better. One just needs to follow Argentina (when do you think it will get better?). Ultimately, USA will collapse and this will bring down capitalism. When capitalism goes down, all the capitalist countries (like 90% of hte world) will collapse. Capitalism is a global system so when USA collapses the whole world will collapse. It's not like fascism, mercantilism, communism, monarchy, or others--these are limited to one country/region. For example, when so-called Communism collapsed, it had almost zero impact on other countries. When capitalism collapses, USA will switch to fascism (start blaming all the immigrants, hispanics, blacks, etc for the collapse). And there will be World War III. The UN will collapse just before the start of the war, just like how the League of Nations collapsed just before WWII.

That's my theory of the collapse of capitalism. There is a bit more which I didn't mention (eg. instead of debt, a class war may cause the collapse too). I know there are a lot of if's and but's. This is also pure speculation with no "proof". So don't base your life on this :)

Sivaram Velauthapillai

Re:If you don't have a C/S degree, get one

[Anonymous Coward]

This cert, that cert. This kind of degree, from this college, or from that college. This kind of resume, or that kind of resume. All crap.

I've done the job seeking thing the normal way. I have a CS degree from Cal State, I've got several networking certificates, and 4+ years of experience. I've applied to several hundred places at LEAST, over a period of two years. My resume is all sparkly. It all means jack. I couldn't get a minimum wage job doing tech support, much less any of those positions our college recruiter blabbled about when they sang praises about college education. I was about ready to say I just wasted 5 years of my life and a huge pile of money and do something else.

Apparently, the only way to land a job is to have someone on the inside. A friend, a relative, a connection of some kind. I stopped bothering with the resumes a year ago, and kind of moved slowly through graduate school, occasionally applying for jobs, working for friends, TA-ing for college.

Then, out of the blue, my parents helped set me up as computer tech at this private school (they are friends of the owners). It was not a glamorous offer, just a basic tech support position, mediocre money, plus I had to assist teaching IT. Not something I'd enjoy, but it was paid work, so I said yes. Once I got in, I worked my ass off. I got everything working, whereas the place didn't event have a working Internet connection prior to that. I overhauled old computers, cannibalized them for spare parts, repaired equipment deemed dead and gone, rewired and documented the entire school network, fixed all the printers. In short, I was a shiny, can-do, just-gimme-a-minute kind of a tech guy. Every time a dumb user, teacher, admin person, or whoever had a silly request, needed a little extra help, or just wanted to vent about their crappy computer, I was patient, polite, and helpful. Even if I had to work unpaid overtime. Even if I wanted to take a sledgehammer to the fools who kept doing what I told them not to ("Don't Press The Big Red Button, It Is Bad"). I just kept smiling and fixing problems.

And it paid off, bigtime. All these people who I helped talked to their friends. And every time computers came up, they'd mention my name as the guy who fixes everything. In the last month I've been approached by 3 HR people from large companies, wanting to hire me. Note that all they had was a good reference from someone on the inside, who had heard of me from a friend. No resume, no nothing. I'm about to accept one of the offers. It is a sysadmin/IT administrator position, in a newly opened school for disabled children, excellent salary, perks, huge budget. No questions asked. I just stated my (very high) demands and they said "Ok, when can you start?". It was surreal. In all my job interviews prior to this, I'd had to prove to the (usually hostile) HR person that I'm just the guy for the job, and that I will do this and that for the company if they take me. The interviewer would keep asking silly questions, then they'd rapid fire some tech questions to try and see if I actually knew anything. This was a whole new world. They wanted ME, and were willing to go a long way to get me. I didn't have to prove my credentials, my loyalty, qualifications, or my personal integrity. Everything I asked for, I got, no questions asked... :)

Anyway. The only way to get a good job is to have someone pick you for it, because of a friendly connection. HR personnel are only human, just like the rest of us. The most important consideration for all of them is whether they can trust the person they are about to hire. They know that resumes are easily faked, and that interviews show someone in their best light, when they prepare themselves. They'd rather get an outside reference, from a friend or someone they trust, and go with it. Qualifications aside, I'm just another guy in a huge pile of recent CS graduates, with no other distinguishing characteristics. What sets me aside is that people know me as "the cool computer guy". Th

Pack your bags...

[Anonymous Coward]

Learn Hindi and move to Delhi. That's probably a better use of your time.

Re:Pack your bags...

[univgeek]

This is bull-shit, please point to some references. All you need to work in India, is a letter of invitation from a company and a work visa. Sure you can't come in on a tourist visa and work. But it is much easier to get a work visa in India than in the USA.

http://www.indianslivingabroad.com/resources/vis a- guide.asp for guidelines.

Newsflash

[Freston Youseff]

Once your foot is sufficiently in the door, certifications mean little or nothing to hiring companies.

Re:Newsflash

[JaredOfEuropa]

Once your foot is sufficiently in the door, certifications mean little or nothing to hiring companies.

Correct, but a certification can help getting that foot firmly wedged in there. When a company receives a bick stack of applications for a tech job, they may cull the stack by looking at certifications.

The perceived value of certifications differs from company to company, but also depends on the field of IT you're in. From what I've seen, certifications for programmers matter little, but they do for DBAs... I wouldn't know about network guys though.

Re:Newsflash

[splattertrousers]

When a company receives a bick stack of applications for a tech job, they may cull the stack by looking at certifications.

True, but it would be even easier to get the job if you can avoid being lumped in with everyone else.

Most jobs (so I've heard) go to "friends of friends" or "colleagues of colleagues". So go get yourself noticed.

If you belong to a church, maybe you can help them out with any technical needs, and maybe someone there will remember you next time they're looking for techincal people.

Or go fix up a school's computers. Make sure to show up on any award night where the school recognizes all the hard work you've put in. Maybe someone else will notice and offer you a job. Or maybe that article about you in the local paper ("Local man spends summer fixing up school's computers for free") will get you noticed (especially if your phone number or website is listed in the article).

There are probably lots more ways to do it... none of them easy, but probably a lot more effective than hoping to have one more acronym than every other resume in the stack.

Save your money.

[grub]

Don't waste your money.

Many jobs nowadays want X years of experience in lieu of Y certifications or Z years of schooling. A lot of IT management smartened up when they certification-mills pumped out losers with some theoretical knowledge but crumbled under practical pressure. You can thank the Dot-Bomb for that. The money-motivated didn't want to spend the time in school to learn the trade lest they get left behind so certification-mills filled a need: impatient people that wanted to make lots of money in the "new economy".

Thankfully a lot of those that were in it only for the money are unemployed (no insult to the submitter intended) or selling crap. Of course different parts of the world and different companies have varying policies so I have to stress YMMV!

Re:Save your money.

[swb]

I think you're right. In the late 90s, everyone I met asked me what certifications I had -- I told them none other than a Big 10 University degree (not in CS), although I had taken a few classes from the vendor-labeled certification "programs" to get myself up to speed (with the Cisco routing classes being the most useful in a general sense). They were often horrified, but that was the only standard they had to judge people on. I kind of felt awkward, but I'd look at the certification programs and wonder what a waste it all was, especially since some really wanted classroom hours PLUS the tests, and it all cost more than *I* was willing to pay or manegement would pay.

Now I'm glad -- I met plenty of morons with certs who really didn't belong in their jobs. I feel bad for the guys who are really good with no college, a pile of certs and no job -- the market will be hard on them, if only because many employers make a college degree a required prerequisite in addition to experience.

How to get a job

[photon317]

1. Post certifications and work-related experiences on a front page slashdot article, along with a plea for help.

2. ???

3. Profit!

cert's didn't matter in my position

[sinucus]

During my 11 month unemployment spree I could say one thing for sure. My certs didn't mean shit in the workplace. People just wanted on the job experience, same thing with formal education. The same questions always prevailed, "Do you have any work experience?" I won't bash certs that badly as my curent workplace is offering to fully certify my ass for free... Now, final note, none of this rings true for CCIE's.

Walmart is Always Hiring

[SirChive]

It's the future of America. I'm not really joking.

I work in a two man IT department at a factory. My pal and I realize that this is the last of the gravy train. When these jobs end because of corporate restructuring or the factory moving to Mexico we will most likely never work in the Tech industry again.

Certs mean jack

[JeffSh]

in my experience, certifications don't mean that much.

What they do mean, is that someone is booksmart enough to sit there and study the material, go in, and take a test. They don't mean the individual can actually fix anything.

In any technical job, be it mechanical or information, the fundamentals of troubleshooting and resourcefulness are far more important than any piece of paper.

i put alot more stock in good references and job experience than certs..

ALL THAT SAID THOUGH:
HR and employers are still waking up to the facts mentioned above. so no matter what the reality is with certs, the problem remains; how can you prove yourself a good technician if you can't get hired.

companies are getting better at recognizing intrinsic skill rather than going whats on a resume, but that has a long way left to go.

i didn't get any certs tho, because i refuse to pay money for something i don't need. i can do my job just fine without a piece of paper to help me along, heh.

Re:Certs mean jack

[dnoyeb]

Yea, this is the point I was making about a year ago in an long drawn out argument with someone on slashdot...

If HR is doing the hiring, then Certs and degrees with count more. If the Manager is doing the hiring, then experience and knowledge will count more.

Also, bigger companies are more capable of training less experienced people in general.

Re:Certs mean jack

[bwalling]

Can't the same be said for a 4-year degree as well?

Yep. That's why we give tests to potential applicants. When you come in, you are set in front of a computer, and given a program to write or a problem to troubleshoot. So far, a CS degree hasn't meant much about who will pass the test.

MCSA

[LittleLebowskiUrbanA]

I know you're probably not interested and I can't blame you but look into getting you Microsoft Certified Sysstems Administrator cert instead of recerting on your Cisco. Makes you more well rounded and it's 4 easy tests. Plus you already know what you're doing w/ Cisco products and your experience will count.
Also, don't you mean you got a 900 on the CCNA? Not a 90 :)

I summon the magical power of....certification!!!!

[Botchka]

Consider this...when the I.T. industry makes a turn for the better (this year) what will set you apart from the thousands of other I.T. folks looking for a job? That's right..either that huge port wine stain on your melon...or certification. I honed my skills in a networked environment of over 6000 workstations, in a help desk situation. If I would have had my act together and gotten certified during that time, I would be in a much different place than I am right now. I'd say go for keeping your certification current as that will show potential employers that you follow through and that even though you've been unemployed in your chosen field, at least you're passionate enough about the work that you've kept up on certs... my2cents

Do it if you want to

[heironymouscoward]

But not because you think it will get you a job, it won't. The days when people were hired in IT because they carried the right bits of paper are gone and dead. These days you get hired because you're the only person available who can solve a critical issue, solve an impossible problem, or otherwise convince your potential employer that hiring you will save him money and tears.

Certification is a commodity and commodity jobs have been shipped overseas.

So, it would be better to do some research in a few prospective companies to see what kinds of essential IT skills they are short of, then go and get some practice in that area. Arm yourself with a skill an employer is actively seeking and you might get the job. One more certificate (or even a CS degree!) won't mean squat.

I wouldn't.

[MsGeek]

The year I took studying for the 7 MCSE/W2K exams was a year I will never get back, and it's gotten me exactly nowhere. I actually had tech industry background and experience. Most of the people in my "class" didn't. The day before my appointment for test #5 of 7 was 9/11. That basically sealed our fate.

MCSE on W2K3 Server? No fucking way. Redmond can pound sand.

My suggestion: start studying nursing. They can't outsource that job yet...although the anime Roujin-Z suggests that perhaps eventual outsourcing to cyber-nurse beds might be in the cards for the future. Same with teaching. You can't dial in a teacher from Bangalore...at least not yet.

Get non-tech certs

[Krapangor]

I think that tech certifications are not very useful: they have an extremely limited lifetime and are usually relatively expensive.
I strongly recommend to get non-technical certifications and titles. While an CCNE, MSCE or NZTSGREF is only valid for 2 years, a Ph.D. or Mensa membership is for life.
And both are usually much cheaper than those exams - for the Ph.D. you could get an industry sponsored topic, earning you money, experience and sometimes even patents. And Mensa membership cost just 30 (US) bucks.
And there are much more such certifications like MS or MBA in different scientific areas out there.
And it usually pays off if you have an higher academic title than your boss.

Insanity?

[CrazyTalk]

I'm sure you've heard the expression, "One definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results". You keep getting these certs and still fail to get the job you want. Maybe you need to pursue another type of education, another company, or another field altogether.

Not completely useless

[Ryosen]

I wouldn't say that certs are completely without value. They sere two fundamental values. First, as a pre-screening criteria for hiring managers, they know that you have, at least, passed a minimum skills test. Second, when the decision is down between you and another person, with your resumes laying side-by-side, the certifications are going to come up as bonus points. Plus, and this is equally important, you can safely bet that the other applicant has certifications.

That said, I wouldn't get too stressed about renewing. I've yet to meet a hiring manager that has asked if a certification was still "valid".

Good luck in your search.

More learning required!

[Anonymous Coward]

Learn Hindi, get a tan, learn to appreciate the third world, hairy chicks, funky music, and move to India to where the jobs are.

Educational expenses deductible

[chopkins1]

Remember that expenses for education to get yourself re-employed (books, classes, certification testing, etc.) are all tax deductible.

Recently I was unemployed (given I already have a 4-yr degree and 10+ years of experience) and decided to re-up my MCSE. I spent $7000 and 2-weeks to go to one of the many MCSE bootcamps (http://www.intenseschool.com). I got a job immediately following signing up for the class and the company paid me while in class.

The kicker here is we recently went to the family CPA and he said all $7000 was tax deductible plus all the materials needed to complete any certification.

Just my $.02. Good Luck

Get a degree

[calmdude]

Having a degree opens many possibilities that weren't there before, including higher-level technical management positions. Even if your future company scales back to 5 techs, they'll still need someone to manage them.

I myself would not put a high school graduate into a management position unless there were extenuating circumstances.

The answer, my friend...

[pongo000]

...is teaching. Break out of the rut that takes your valuable labor and converts it to ready cash for company executives that simply don't give a shit about you. You have had a great opportunity to see the world of networking from the inside. Isn't it time you passed the torch onto others?

You cheapen the value of your knowledge and time by entertaining thoughs of going back into industry. There are always going to be people in this world content to work for someone else. You can take what you know and leverage it into a new career in education. Sure, the pay's not what you would get in industry, but you will have enough extra time on your hands to start a consulting business on the side. Between your consulting income and teaching salary, you stand a strong likelihood of earning more than you did when in industry. (Plus, teaching is often an added badge of credibility to prospective clients. Ignore the adage of "Those who can, do...those who can't teach." This is the mantra of those who can't do either.)

Work smart, not hard.

Certs mena SFA to existing employers

[T-Ranger]

Training is good. Knowladge is good. But can your employer get any more work (or better work) out of someone once they get a peice of paper? No.

Applying for a new job, OTOH... The certs imply that you have the book knowladge. But unless it is a consulting firm (where they have to "resell" you), then the certs themselves again, mean nothing. Choosing beteween someone who has worked with X product for years, and someone who has read a book and managed to pass a test, who would you choose?

This is not to say that certs in general are bad. But to some people/companies they dont mean anything. And I suppose that given otherwise identical canadates, someone who dosent care about certs would likely choose the guy with them.

One of the historical problems with certs is that they have been used as a marketing/mind share tool. Back in the day, becoming a Netware 3.x CNA was trivial. MCSE and CCNA today is the rage. Novell has "fixed" their education program, and even the one exam CNA's from 4.x on has been fairly good. But the damage was done. Today, everyone makes fun of MCSEs. And personaly, even being unemployed, I wouldnt wipe my ass with an A+ cert.

I think in your case, someone is fucking with you. Maby its just some lowly worker bees having some fun, and maby your company is just evil. But I would be looking for a way out.

Two words for you: "Well" and "Rounded"

[LazloToth]

No set of skills meets every employer's wants. Particularly in view of the job exporting craze that is in full swing now, being able to COMMUNICATE in grammatically correct English gets you lots of points when you're an otherwise technically overweighted person. I went from technician to tech manager at a solid financial services company in four years because I could research projects, work up a presentation for execs and directors, and lead implementation. My boss took credit for my work for a long time, but eventually she was exposed. Wanna know what my credentials were before I landed that entry-level job? I had a BA in journalism/PR, 10 years of retail management, an MCSE, and a fairly good grasp of the bash shell. Be strong technically, yes - - but show that you're more than that. It will get you attention in this day and age when so many geeks can't put together a proper sentence.

The 'best' reason to get certs

[Captain McCrank]

In the interest of full disclosure, I am a CCNA and a CISSP with a Bachelors in CS. Caveat Emptor.

The big reason to get any cert is because you see a series of jobs that specifically state you need the cert AND you are underqualified for the position. The certs will get your foot in the door, but your personality has to get you the job. If you're qualified, certifications don't help or hurt- they're like a mole on your back that people will be aware of only when you tell them they exist.

However, if you are targeting a company like Microsoft or Cisco for employment, get the certs! These companies are going to want to hire people that are:

1. familiar with their solutions
2. compentent/experienced enough for the position open

Companies this large tend to want folks who can help dogfood their tools and improve them. Additionally, dogfooding means that you save these groups plenty of cash- A microsoft tester who knows java is probably going to loose a position to a tester with an MCAD- who will in turn design and implement MS-based solutions rather than trying to evangelize some Javabeans solution.

I made the cert choices I did because I wanted to be in Information Security, I looked in some books and I decided I'd mirror the certs of the authors of these texts. The only thing left that I'd like to get in terms of a certification is an MCSD, but that's only if I am trying to get employed at Microsoft. If my next job is one that will be long term and give me the flexibility, then I'm going to target a Masters degree, because really, what's the point in getting another technical certification if I will acquire the experience that should equal an MCSD?

Will I renew my certs? Probably only the CISSP. How else do you convey to people that are mystified by the shamanistic ways of Hackers that Yes, I am the guy that can help keep them out. A big fat badge on your chest that says 'CISSP' makes those who don't understand feel safe. A 'CCNA' badge? meh... networking equipment will only get easier to use- The days of the Network Engineering team are starting to fade. These guys will be blue collar and unionized in another 10 years.

MENSA???

[ca1v1n]

Ummm... most people look at Mensa membership as an indication that you haven't come to terms with being beat up on the playground in school by kids who were dumber than you. I'd probably qualify for it, but even if it was free, and something posessed me to join, I sure as hell wouldn't put it on my resume. Every experienced employer knows that being smart is not a very good discriminator for job performance, beyond simple qualification.

Re:MENSA???

[donutello]

Exactly. MENSA is an association of people who are insecure about their own intelligence and therefore seek the validation of others to tell them they are smart and arrogant enough to want to "distinguish themselves" from "the masses".

First-Generation Americans Job Taken By His Father

[transporter]

First-Generation American's Job Taken By His Father

READING, PA -- Miguel Martinez, 48, who immigrated to the U.S. 30 years ago, last week lost his leather-cutting job at GST AutoLeather, Inc. to his 66-year-old father Roberto. "I came to this country in 1974 to make a better life for my family," Martinez said Monday. "But in December, they moved the factory where I've been working for 22 years down to Nuevo Laredo, Mexico. I love my father, but that damn beaner stole my job." Martinez's $18-an-hour duties will now be performed by his father for $7 a day.

Get back to work

[ubeans]

Take job that's related to your field. Any job. No matter how low the salary.

I have been on the hiring end several times, and let me tell you that nothing looks worse on your resume than not working for a significant length of time, even if you're busy working on getting more certifications.

If you can't find employment in your field, then start your own company and offer on-site network support for local businesses at a very low price. It might not earn you a lot of money, but you'll be gaining credibility as a self-directed, self-motivated go-getter and IMHO that's worth more in your resume then just piling up certifications.

Good Luck.

Dupe, or comment promotion? You decide...

[utahjazz]

This episode of Ask Slashdot brought to you by this (Score: 1) comment

Don't fool yourself

[gclef]

The relative cost of labor overseas has very little to do with currency exchange rates. It's all to do with the cost of living, and the expected standard of living in the area. That's why you'll see call centers moving to the middle of nowhere, 'cause people there don't expect $60k/year to answer phones. They're happy with $25k or less. The reason: the standard of living is lower out there, and the cost of living out there is lower. Extrapolate that out to a third world country, and you'll see why that same thinking leads to overseas workers...they're happy with the equivalent of $8k or so.

Changing the exchange rate won't do a damned thing to stop offshoring. That's a complete red herring. The only thing that will effectively raise the price of offshoring is raising the standard of living and the cost of living in the countries that we're offshoring to. But that's hard, and won't happen quickly, so don't expect to see the economics of offshoring change anytime in the next few decades.

Re:Don't fool yourself

[nelsonal]

Exchange rates move a little each time that $8k salary is paid, as well as everytime you buy a Nokia phone, or other foreign made product. In the US we have (for the past 30 or 40 years) bought significantly more than we exported, but that is only half the story, a big part of our imports are oil related. What has kept things in balance (and even driven the dollar up) is that foreigners have generally wanted to invest in our financial products (equities, Treasury and Corporate debt, physical plants) this is what economists call the capital account, and has run a surplus (roughly balancing with the current accout deficit) until very recently after the bubble popped that cut some investment, but over the past year or so, money has been moving to europe because interest rates were significantly higher. The exception to this is Asian exporting countries that wish to prolong their export growth, who have been buying financial products here (mostly Treasury debt) if they stop, the dollar will fall significantly (bringing those $25k salaries a whole lot closer to the $8k salary (in dollar terms).
Business follows things in trends, and just like railroads, the internet, Japan, and many other huge changes, there will be significant production developed there, but right now it is a bubble and it will pop eventually. The good news is that this will significantly reduce the excitemet assocated with India, the bad news is that something like 90% of the investmet in a bubble change occurs after it pops (just at a much slower rate).

Re:Don't fool yourself

[chewmanfoo]

I work for a rather large IT Services company in a call center in North Texas, USA. My company has just opened a big call center in Hydrobad, India, employing ~30 technicians at ~5$ per hour. We are told that new hires in India will be paid for by attrition in the states (we can hire 4 of them for the cost of one of us, and their real estate rates and costs of training are significantly lower, as well). Analysis done by bigwigs at my company projects this disparity to remain for at least a decade. I find it interesting that they do in fact see the end of it in my lifetime.

But, given my corrent position in the company, I don't see a problem with waiting it out and staying in IT. New hires, however, should consider this climate extremely hazardous. One bright spot: individuals with highly specialized backgrounds can find work in the states more easily. It would be difficult to hire and train an engineer in Hydrobad to build wireless networks, for example, so companies like Motorola, when they recover, will likely seek candidates here in the states.

Re:Hang in there..

[n4vu]

I have to view certifications as neutral. While reviewing thousands of resumes in the course of screening hundreds of candidates for clients over the past three (lean) years, one trend is clear: employers are hiring for work history, not certifications. I even had one manager tell me not to bother sending him anyone with more certificates than years of experience.

People who have the work experience might better take the time they would have spent cramming for certs, and spend it in developing a really door-opening resume, full of accomplishments, as opposed to just job descriptions.

The question a hiring manager tries to answer in the first 20 seconds of viewing a resume is, "what can this person do for me," not "what were this person's job descriptions."

Better Advice - Cover Letter

[snatchitup]

From the time to time that I look for new jobs. One thing has become more and more important than anything else.

Conver Letters Count More Than You Think. Especially Applying Online!!!!

It gets boring writing a different one for each position, but you have to. If the advertise position doesn't give enough info, then you need to get crazy!.

I think if you took my 4 boldest cover letters (typically written after then 5th Sam Adams) during job hunts, I got responses on 3 out of 4.

Anything else, just wouldn't do.

And I mean it. Drink some beers, smoke some weed. Do whatever it takes to lift yourself up into a different state of being with the Universe, and bang out some sh$%t story as to how the company can't afford not to hire you!

Expose a little passion!

Re:Better Advice - Cover Letter

[snatchitup]

Wrote the parent message having a little bit of wine, as I'm also currently trouble-shooting some issues with a software upgrade that took place last night. I am having a few glasses of St. Frances Cabernet Sauv.

With regards to my comments on drinking/smoking...

These are tools. Very powerful tools when used sparingly and infrequently. Do not use these tools as an escape. Though, I must say. You are probably very stressed out. Drinking to help you get some sleep is a good thing. But there's one thing you need to not neglect in stressful times...

Exercise... Do it. Or the stress will take years from your life.

IMHO, it's mostly who you know.....

[King_TJ]

In the 14 or so years I've worked in I.T. (in various capacities, ranging from a tech. behind the counter in a small "mom and pop" store, to support specialist in a multi-company corporate environment, to freelance consulting, to on-site service companies), I've run into the whole spectrum of "computer professionals".

Almost without exception, the highest paid of them didn't correlate with the most knowledgeable of them.

Also, finding a correlation between having multiple certs. and being "better than the other I.T. guys" at performing their job was difficult. Quite frankly, some of the "best and brightest" I.T. people I've ever run across weren't certified in anything at all. They simply worked with the stuff "hands on" for years and years, learning the facts that really matter, without the "fluff" and largely useless theory that comes with the certs. (If you get your MCSE for example, much of it will test your ability to construct a complete LAN/server infrastructure that best meets the needs of a group of hypothetical users. That's all well and good, but it's utterly useless 99% of the time. How often do you get hired on with your MCSE to build a network and infrastructure for a company from the ground up?? If they're hiring, it's because they already HAVE that set up and they need help administering it! You simply don't have to concern yourself with all the small details of why everything was set up. In fact, your MCSE knowledge might well tell you things are designed poorly - but trying to change that upsets some office politics and then you're booted out the door.)

What I guess I'm getting at is - the MOST VALUABLE thing you can have on your side is KNOWING PEOPLE. Make connections! A good friend who has some hiring power in a company that needs another computer guy is worth 10 certifications. Looking back on it now, I believe every job I ever had was at least partially due to knowing somebody. (Heck, even my very first job doing telemarketing for a carpet cleaners was obtained because a good friend's girlfriend already worked there, and told me they had openings if I was interested. Then, she put in a good word or two for me - and I was hired.)

Re:You're wrong

[EastCoastSurfer]

Business or English.

CS + Business is a good combo because PHBs need someone to cut through all the tech BS that their techies push at them and then dumb it down to their level. If your into Design Patterns think of yourself as a techie PHB Adapter :)

If you don't care too much for business then go for a minor in English. No matter what career path you end up going down, knowing how to read and write (and do it well) will be useful.

Re:Lawyers and certifications

[larry bagina]

I recently read that the 1-million mark had been passed for lawyers in the US. I think the surplus of lawyers is to blame for the sue-happy americans, which, of course, increases the demand for lawyers. Chicken, meet egg.