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Carpal Tunnel- Laptops Better than Ergo Keyboards?
An anonymous reader asks: "I have chronic tendonitis in my wrists (I think of it as incipient carpal tunnel syndrome). I shied away from laptops for years, thinking the cramped keyboard would aggravate my condition. About six months ago, circumstances forced me to break down and get a laptop. I didn't have any major problems with the keyboard - it's only now that I've switched back to a wireless mouse and an ergonomic keyboard that I've started to have any pain. Amazingly, the laptop is more comfortable for me to use long term. Has anyone had a similar experience? What's the explanation? Is it the shorter stroke depth on the keys? The fact that you can put your hands closer together than on a standard keyboard?"
I don't know the why so I can't really help you, but I have noticed the same thing.
Well, let me take a stab... perhaps we have a tendency to position (and reposition) the laptop however it feels most comfortable. Maybe it's just giving better variety?
Here before all but 8486 of you.
I feel the same way. Could it be that you don't have to press the keys as hard? or maybe the tightness means you don't have to move your fingers as far. Either way I like it.
I use a normal keyboard at work.
A kinesis advantage at the home office.
and an old dell inspiron 4000 on the couch and cafe
and the winner is the damn dell. I think it has something to due with no moving my wrists when using the laptop. The kinesis does come in a close second, probably for the same reason.
Oh really?
CTS not caused by keyboards
I have been pwned because my
Did you use a wrist wrest with the ergonomic keyboard? Lots of laptops have a somewhat built in wrist rest (any that have a touch pad, I guess.) I think having your wrists balanced and at the level of the keys makes a big difference. It relieves a lot of the stress on your wrists.
my wife has ct so bad while pregnant with our first kids that she eventally needed surgery.
several months she wore braces at night with a covered metal plate that ran the length of her forearm (strapped on) and the plate ran up over the underside of her wrist into her palm. The plate was bent over at the wrist to push her hands backward (like you are stopping a car with a hand signal). The device also tended to rotate the hands laterally (away from center line). The position gave her significant relief from ct symptoms.
the orientation of your wrists while typing on a laptop is typically very different than typing on a normal keyboard. I'd bet that the angle in your wrists while typing in the laptop is such that it afford more room in your carpal tunnel for the tendons and they don't rub around so much.
I, too, have experienced the same thing. I've no real knowledge as to why this is, but I would imagine that since the keys are closer together, we place our hands closer together, making them go in a more natural diagonal position (/ \) instead of just being straight (| |) like in normal spaced keyboards. Also, since the screen is attached to the laptop, the back and neck are in a better position which overall relaxes the arm muscles.
/me hugs his laptop.
Just my random shot at it. Anyways, if it aint broke, don't fix it! I can barely spend a good day's work on my desktop anymore, after using my laptop religiously for almost half a year. Not necessarily due to discomfort in the wrist or anything, but just fatigue in general.
- shazow
Here is why you dont have any problems. It is cause with a laptop, you usually dont keep your hands in that position that long cause it really is uncomfortable. A office keyboard, ergonomic keyboard, or fancy keyboards have that bottom where you rest your hands on to type, making you more prone to type more while still keeping your hands in the same position. With a laptop, you are usually cramped, and if you pay attention, your hands are not always in the same spot.
Just me
Generally laptops have smaller hard disk space compared to desktops which means lesser space for porn which mean you used your hand less...
In addition, I believe the way you sit, and especially the way you rest your elbows/underarms means more than the specific keyboard/mouse solution.
At least for me, the problem went away as soon as I learned to discipline myself to no rest my wrists on the keyboard; keep your hands up and flat and you shouldn't have any troubles.
Most likely with the laptop you're holding it in a position that takes the compression off your wrists.
While I don't have CT, I did suffer from this annoying wrist and forearm pain from time to time. I've found that a regular workout program that includes forearm curls and streching/flexing have cut down my pain to just about none.
Try the wrist curls sometime... Chicks dig my Popeye forearms now.
I have only owned a laptop for years, including all of college, and I have to agree. The primary reason, I think, is that I'm not straining to keep my fingers up. Most keyboards slope towards you; you have to pull your fingers and hands back just to keep from pushing a key. This is particularly true with ergonomic keyboards. Laptops are flat, plus have a hand wrest. (On occasion I've propped up the near side of my laptop to relieve strain even more.)
So:
Flat.
Built-in hand rest at the height of the keytops.
No reaching for the mouse.
Small keyboard (no reaching).
Also, the idea with the split keyboards is that you don't have to twist your wrists outwards, but I don't see the problem. At my laptop my arms come in at about 22 degrees from center, and my fingers continue in that direction.
Another thing about the laptop is that the keys travel a much shorter distance. They are also closer together. For example, I don't have to move my entire hand to use the cursor keys.
Anyway, this is just my experience.
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They are both horribly prone to problems, but they are so vastly different in how you hold your hands and what muscles you use, I'm thinking that they provide a nice balance.
Either that or next week my arms will explode.
--
Evan
"$30 for the One True Ring. $10 each additional ring!" -- JRR "Bob" Tolkien
I have chronic tendonitis in my wrists (I think of it as incipient carpal tunnel syndrome)
anonymous reader: My wrists hurt!
doctor: Let me see...
anonymous reader: (I hope it's carpal tunnel syndrome, I hope it's carpal tunnel syndrome...)
doctor: You have chronic tendonitis in your wrists.
anonymous reader: Is this the same as CARPAL TUNNEL SYNDROME?
doctor: No.
anonymous reader: Can I think of it as INCIPIENT carpal tunnel syndrome?
doctor: Not really.
anonymous reader: But it's possible?
doctor: Not in my opinion.
anonymous reader: But everyone is entitled to their opinion, right?
doctor: That's what they say.
anonymous reader: Ok thanks doc!!
IANAD, but here is my opinion:
;-D
Since permanet, unvarying strain of the wrist is the (major) cause of CS, an alternation of the position of the wrists could be a relieve, since other, until now unharmed, parts of the sinews are under demand (demanded?), or at least the same parts of the sinew experience a different demand.
And there is another aspect:
If you type on a normal keyboard, the wrist is often bent (see AA below).
. . . --m
____/ . . nn
(m is/are the fingers, nn are the keys)
Since notebook keyboards are totally plain, the wrist is not bent and forearm and hand lie in one plain:
--------m
. . . . nn
As noted erlier, typing without resting the hands on the keyboard can be a relief for the wrists (I too had such problems, and since I ceased to rest my hands while typing, the pains have eased trendemously).
PS:
If the ascii art is undistinguishable, please excuse; but this the drawback of AA.
Copyn paste into notepad should help!
In the worst case, use lynx
--
The checkbox said "Requires Windows 98, NT, or better. And so I installed Linux
I always suffered from sore wrists and such on regular keyboards, but I have been using a laptop almost exclusively for a year and a half and I am just dandy.
It's all in the angle... or at least that's my guess. It seems that most of my hand's weight is actually supported by the elbow-wards part of my forearm. My hand also supports some of the weight, but almost all of it on the lower palm... so my wrist really doesn't support my weight at all. And with the palm and elbow-wards forearm being pretty sturdy next to the naked, uncushioned underwrist, I don't suffer any ill effects.
no thanks
When thinking about the way you sit, it is also very important to think of your entire posture. For instance, what you do with your shoulders can be very important in how your wrists feel. In the case of the OP I could imagine that, when using a laptop, he relaxes his shoulders better, which makes for an entirely more relaxed posture.
Still, when comparing the way you use the laptop and ergonomical keyboards, try to find any difference in how you sit -- even if it seems to have no relation with your wrists. It might be a crucial difference for you personally.
jdv
Ok, I honestly can't diagnose your situation. But in my experience, the mouse has made FAR MORE difference than the keyboard in causing me trouble. Try switching to a trackball or a trackpad. It takes a bit to get used to the trackball, and they definitely don't have the precision on a mouse (no FPS for you!), but for most purposes, they're perfectly adequate, and they generally put far less stress on the wrist.
I never had trouble with my wrists. Ok, occasionally my wrist would hurt from putting all of my weight on it, but that was a skin-deep problem, not a carpel-tunnel or tendonitis problem. Then I got a summer job using Visual Basic. VB takes mouse usage to new heights, and within 2 months I had serious problems. Fancy keyboards, special extra-large mice, wrist braces, etc. didn't help much. I learned to mouse with my left hand, and that helped since I could spread the stress out. Even after I left that job, I had problems with my right wrist.
Then as I was starting a new job and getting set up with my office equipment, I asked the hardware guy if he had anything that would help with wrist problems. He gave me a "Microsoft Trackball Optical" (some prefer the the "Microsoft Trackball Explorer", so try them both). To make a long story short, over the next 3 months I stopped needing my wrist brace, and over the past 2.5 years, I haven't had any serious trouble. I now have a mouse (any mouse) and a Trackball Optical hooked up to every desktop computer I own. Most of the time, I use the trackball. When I do something where the trackball doesn't work well, I use the mouse.
Looking back, I've done a little bit of research. It turns out that the Microsoft Intellimouse I was using back then has become famous for causing wrist trouble. When it was designed, they did customer studies to find out what shape people liked best, and people chose the old Microsoft Intellimouse as the most comfortable. That was fine for short-term use, but over long-term use, it turned out to be terrible. The hump at the back forced you to bend your wrist. Newer designs have removed this hump.
So don't necessarily blame the keyboard! Try a mouse alternative, or at least make sure your current mouse is well designed (if you are using an older Microsoft mouse, get it replaced immediately, and stomp on it before throwing it away so that it won't ever be able to hurt anyone ever again!).
In addition, get your workstation layout evaluated. Either study up on it yourself, or get somebody who knows about it to evaluate your office for you. Here are a few key points:
Start with the chair. Your feet should firmly reach the ground. You should sit up straight.
When sitting up straight, your eyes should be lined up with a point on the top half of your screen. If you tend to slouch (like I do), your eyes should line up with the top of the screen. If you tend to sit up straight, your eyes should line up with a point 1/3 of the way down the screen.
Your keyboard should be positioned so that when you are in standard typing posture, the part of the arm above the elbow is hanging straight down and the elbow makes a 90 degree bend so that they are parallel to the floor. This should allow you to type with NO VERTICAL BEND in your wrist. The keyboard should be positioned horizontally so that the "6" key lines up with the center of the monitor. Don't line up your keyboard's physical center with the monitor -- line it up so that home row is centered. If you have a split keyboard, this can allow you to type with no bending AT ALL in your wrist. If you have a normal keyboard, your wrists will have a slight bend to one side. That is bad, but acceptable. It isn't acceptable for one wrist to be bent more than the other. And it isn't acceptable for there to be ANY vertical bend.
The mouse needs to be placed so you can switch from keyboard to mouse without moving your elbow (which is directly beneath your shoulder, remember?). Unfortunately for right-handed people, that put
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.
When I use my laptop I tend to have it at the right level/distance, having it rest on my lap seems to be the best. Most of the tables I've used (at coffee shops, etc) are just at the right level as well. Also most laptops have a place to rest your hands which isn't too soft or lumpy.
Now when it comes to desktops, too often I find the keyboard too high to use (then I adjust the chair), and too close to the edge.
It seems to me the keyboard shape is less important then where the keyboard is.
Also, It seems I get more work done on laptops for several reasons, I don't seem to use my desktop anymore.
I'm recovering from tendonitis in my fingers rather than my wrists.
I was using two Happy Hacking keyboards at almost right angles to each other, which made me have to twist to use one of them (my main machine of choice, as it turned out), and I would happly pound away at the keys with habitual excessive force. Then one day: tap, tappity, tap, tap, OUCH!
First, I collapsed my two keyboards and monitor s to one with a KVM. Then I started looking for an ergonomic keyboard.
For me it was very much the amount of force necessary to press the keys so I looked for a keyboard with a light touch. I finally settled on a FingerWorks Touch-Stream Stealth which is a really odd keyboard with no real buttons... instead you just tap the painted-on spots on a flat plastic pad. It also functions as a mouse, and uses gestures for SHIFT, ALT, and a whole host of other special functions (it even has emacs mode specific functions).
My hands can definitely last longer on the Touch-Stream, and they are slowly returning to normal (looks like it will be at least 8 months to full recovery if ever (it has been 4 months already)). Every once in a while I get on a regular keyboard and notice that my fingers don't fare nearly as well (but I can type noticably faster).
So its advantages are:
(1) easy on the hands (I doubt there is a keyboard with a softer touch)
(2) easy on the wrists (comes with ergonomic platform with nice soft hand rests, and is very adjustible)
(3) mouse without lifting your hands from the keyboard
(4) the gestures are customizable (but I haven't played with that yet)
The cons for Touch-Stream (in my experience) are:
(1) takes at least 2 weeks of use to approach your old level of productivity (the first few days are very frustrating). Its almost as bad as realearning.
(2) after 4 months you still only be at about 80% as fast as on a regular keyboard
(3) its not very good for fine mousework (since it is USB I can run a second mouse and keyboard on the side should I need them)
(4) it has a "game mode" but IMO is not a viable game keyboard
(5) at $350 it is on the expensive side
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I think it has to do with the fact that laptop keyboards are inset into the laptop and the 'wrist rest' is actually positioned above the keys or at least at the same elevation as the keys. Having your fingers push down into the keyboard seems like a much more natural activity compared to normal keyboards where you typically push forward and usually have to lift your fingers above parallel to reach various keys.
A fool throws a stone into a well and a thousand sages can not remove it.
I have two possible andswers to this really, and the first is hand movement.
When using a laptop, the keyboard is usually smalles,as in not as wide, what with smaller keys, and the lack of a keypad. This causes you to not move around as much and not slide on your wrists or forearms, like you would on a normal keyboard. Also, there might be soething to the fact that laptop keyboards are flat, as opposed to normal keyboards that are at an incline to you.
The second reason is body position.
If you spend all day in an "ergonomically correct" position, you're more likelyto ut the same kind of stress on various body parts, as opposed to moving around alot, slouching and doing stuff to change the way you sit. I move around quite alot on my chair, and to this day, I have almost never had any kind or ergonimical problems, whereas people who try to site and type correctly have had wrist and back problems happen to them on a regular basis.
I'm not saying that you should discard everything people who work with ergonomics say, because they are probalby right on way more occasions that me whne it comes to something like this, but you need to change stuff from time to time, otherwise, it wouldn't be very much dofferent from the dronework robots do at assembly lines.
The only problems I ever have is after stuff like 18-24 hour gaming sessions, when sitting is pretyt much the only thing I do, but since those come around very rarely, and I have a crappy back to begin with, I don't worry that much.
So,a little variation in the way you sit, and the way you do things will go a long way...
Move sig!
It has nothing to do with the keyboard. The problem you're experiencing probably has more to do with your mouse than anything. Most people place the mouse too high and too far away from their body than they should. Mouse clicking with an extended arm is a very common cause of RSI--the motion causes a great deal of strain to the wrist. This is why some people with RSI use a foot pedal as a mouse clicker. In fact, these foot pedal mice buttons are used very commonly in the vector digitization industry (people that trace maps and oil well logs to vectorize raster or image-based data).
My recommendation? Get a track ball. Or get a keyboard tray wide enough to put your mouse on. O
--Be human.
There are multiple factors which determine whether or not a keyboard might contribute to carpal tunnel syndrome or the less severe tendonitis.
The laptop may be working better for you because the laptop keyboard ends up being closer to the right height (elbows at your side, forming a 90 deg angle, wrists straight). You may also not be resting your wrists/palms on the keyboard or anything else (a no-no). I find that frequently having to bend my wrists horizontally to use the smaller keyboard to be an aggravating factor on the laptop. My favorite keyboard is my Kinesis keyboard which I've had for years.
Another factor may be your usage of a mouse with the keyboard but the laptop's trackpad or eraser doohicky when using the laptop.
The downside of a laptop is that your head and neck end up bending down all the time which can cause neck and shoulder pain. Laptop stands can help that problem, but you end up needing a keyboard.
I don't have CT, but when using a regular keyboard and a laptop keyboard, I find my shoulder muscles getting stiff and achy, which doesn't happen when using an ergonomic keyboard (and yes, I use the wristrest on the ergo keyboard).
:P )
And for bigger people like me, typing an a laptop feels very constraining. I've used an ergo keyboard for 7+ years, and I find when typing on a regular/laptop keyboard, I make a heck of alot more typing mistakes than an ergo (and no, even though I'm a bit overweight, I don't have fat fingers
It's better to burn out than to fade away
I also have found the same thing, I had used a Sony VIAO with a 3/4 size keyboard for some time without any issues. But when my job required me to use a conventional keyboard & mouse I began developing wrist pain. Now my Powerbook seems to let it feel better, but as soon as I return to a conventional keyboard I can count on several days of discomfort.
Ive got my own theory about this whole Carpal Tunnel Syndrome, and Egonomic typing.
I have been typing for just about my whole life. In spans of actual years, lets say 20. I do not have any problem with my wrists or fingers. Now you might just say "You're a lucky one". But the fact of the matter is, as I have observed, most computer geeks I associate with are in the same boat. The people that DO have issues, are the ones that type "properly", and can type rediculous amounts of words a second. I don't think Carpal Tunnel is a symptom of just typing, but of exceeding the "Safe Typing Speed". Like with any machine, there is a limit in which you can push it, before it starts to fail. I feel that is what is going on, and while I havent conducted a funded, hardcore experiment, what I have observed is proof enough for me.
Anyway, about the article, Laptops usually yield a smaller keyboard. Just like retarded motorists slow down when entering a tunnel for no good reason, I think people suffer "Keyboard Clostraphobia". They keyboard is smaller, and while you may be able to type on it fine, subconciously, we worry about the "fat finger", so we slow down.
"When life gives you lemons, don't make lemonade. Make life take the lemons back!" -- Cave Johnson
Personally, I think half these ergonomics folks are full of it. I think it's better to have your tendons straight, for both mouse and keyboard. So instead of dropping my keyboard and mouse, I raise them and lower my chair until my arms are nearly straight on my desk.
BTW, Gateway laptops have a much worse keyboard than Dell ones. The Fn key is the outermost left key, with Ctrl next to it, then Win, then Alt. I want Ctrl and Alt to be the outermost. And the Home, PgUp, PgDown, End group is a straight line on the right side instead of a cluster up in the top right. Ug!
If you constantly use a mouse that you have to move your wrist to operate, then you are setting yourself up for the potential world of pain. I found the only way to combat this problem when I'm at work is to use a stationary mouse (aka trackball shaped like a mouse) and it literally changed the way my wrist and hand feel. I use gel supports for both the split keyboard and trackball, and I tell you, my wrists only have momentary problems when I use a regular mouse for a prolonged period of time. Logitech makes good stationary mice (this one I have is called a Marble Mouse). It's old (since 1998) but I still have it and it works like no other mouse I own! The Marble Mouse has probably evolved since then, but I can say honestly it makes a difference.
Carpal Tunnel Syndrome, I think, may be less relevant to this discussion than RSI (Repetitive Stress Injury), which is a much more common result of keyboard and mouse usage. Carpal Tunnel may be as much genetic as anything else and RSI is something everyone can get. RSI is much more common and is often mistaken for Carpal Tunnel Syndrome (something of a disease-of-the-week in today's computerized world).
Here are a few points to keep in mind:
-Mice are usually responsible for many more RSI problems that keyboards. The mouse is something you access sporadically and involves lots of wrist and finger twisting.
-Ergonomic keyboard research has been inconclusive as to whether or not any given keyboard design is better for RSI than another. It all seems to boil down to personal opinion and anecdotal evidence.
-Keyboard and mouse wrist rests are very important for reducing RSI problems.
With that in mind one can see how a laptop might help. There's a built-in wrist rest on a laptop. Additionally, the track pad or keyboard pointer, while less accurate and easy to use than a mouse, actually has people stressing their joints and muscles less than when using a mouse.
For many of you a laptop may be just the thing.
I like laptop keyboards much better. I wish I could find a laptop keyboard equivalent for my desktop...something with short keystrokes, flat keys, and a wrist rest built in.
I think the wrist rest is probably the biggest factor as far as comfort goes. I love the keys on laptops, though.
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I use an old Microsoft Natural keyboard (the proper kind that slants backwards :-) connected to my laptop whenever I can. When I am forced to use my laptop by itself (when travelling or in meetings usually - my laptop is my desktop comp at work with keyboard, mouse, and monitor), my wrists hurt. I'm sure I would get used to it, but no thanks.
And don't even get me started on the touchpad. Aargh.
-- stream of did I lock the front door consciousness
Most laptops today have a touchpad, and after I got used to it I found that the shoulder pain I had had since 6 months after starting with the mouse in 1989 got much better.
I typed for many years on manual typewrites, DECWriters, and similar high-force keyboards that forced good hand posture. After switching to the laptop I realized my wrist pain started when I began using soft-touch, movable, adjustable PC keyboards.
Two years ago I had a desktop built about 1.5" lower than the standard desktop height, with smooth rounded edges. I use the laptop exclusively on that surface and wrist, shoulder, and neck strain have all been a lot better.
Kind of a Robert Fulgham moment: what your (pre-1980) high school typing teacher told you was exactly right after all.
sPh
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Amen to the above, and let me recommend the Logitech Trackman wheel. No Anti-MS feelings here, they make good hardware, but the wireless version of this logitech device is great! It's a thumb-ball, where you move the ball with your thumb and click with the same fingers you use on your mouse, plus a scroll wheel in a similar-to-mouse position. easy to clean, good an batteries, and pretty accurate.
I play FPS with them frequently, and I cannot blame my sucking at them on the trackball at all. Accuracy is good (the trackball's, not mine) and you can give it a good spin to move a long distance without moving your arm (never have to pick it up and reposition to keep moving in a given direction.
Just my $.02
I'm a third year computer science student and since last year I've had huge cronic pain in both my wrists after hundreds of different methods of pain reductionI finally realized that the pain started 1 month after I changed from a regular ergonomic keyboard to ms's natural keyboard pro. when I realized that this was the issue I switched to a regular logitech keyboard and I rarely have problems, the main issue I noticed it was definatly the amount of force needed to move each key. I'm now highly considering a softtouch keybaord (aka a laptop keyboard). I've talked to about 4 doctors and all say basically I'm f***ed so When I finally figured this out I was overjoyed. I was unlucky because I couldn't find anyone with the same problem or a solution and because of this had to suffer for a year. The only issue I've faced since I've changed is that I get a little finger pain from not having the natural style. I'm curious if anyone has found a natural soft touch keyboard?
a nice little article on ergonomics of working at home with a modular setup using a laptop, and the ergonomic benefits of it. Seems to suggest it's the variation. So, that wouldn't directly answer this original post--but it's an interesting ergo bit of info.
s pring02/
http://www.id.iit.edu/profile/gallery/workathome_
Only considering the keyboard and not the mouse, a laptop keyboard being narrower than a desktop keyboard forces more inward rotation of the shoulders when typing. The result is rounded back syndrome.
You may be okay with one of HP's 17" laptops that has a large keyboard with a dedicated numeric pad / cursor pad. Your shoulders don't have to rotate as much if you use the numeric pad as a dedicated cursor pad.
Of course as another person stated, the mouse is the big issue for computer users. Even changing to a lighter weight mouse can help some people. The new wireless mice are tougher on your body because they weigh much more than a corded mouse (no batteries).
Another thing that is helpful for the mouse is getting the tracking speed way up and learning to use the mouse that way. You end up moving your hand less which puts less stress on your system.
So much of "what works" though is subjective. Even general ergonomic rules don't seem to work that well for some people. Follow your instincts and listen to what your body tells you.
Good luck.
My experience has been just the opposite. I never had any problems with my wrists until I started using my laptop full time. Since then I have not been able to do anything to fix my tendonitis. I do believe that touchpads are better for your wrists than mice though, and in all honesty, I got the laptop and started having problems when I switched from part time to full time programming, which is probably the real root of the problem.
The dirty lottle secret of ergonomics is that there is no "best" solution or you could use what everybody else uses. Our bodies are different and we need different solutions. Some of us need very different solutions. The "best" thing ergo designers can do is to make thngs as adjustable as they can. The solution to ergo problems is to keep trying until you find what works. That may be a laptop or it may be working standing up.
My RSI comes from the mouse, and simply using a trackball at home and a mouse at work has made most symptoms go away. But thats my only experience with this kind of thing so YMMV.
Bleh!
actually the only thing i find is ok is one of them mini happy hacker keyboards
dybia felly dwi a hampster (i think therefore i am a hampster)
I was using the same laptop exclusively for about two years, and I was starting to get pains in my wrists. Then I found an old IBM keyboard from 1985 - you know, the big heavy ones with steel bases. Within a day or two the pains had gone away (I think I caught it early)
So maybe the lesson here is to vary your keyboards regularly? Use the laptop for a month, then a standard keyboard, then an ergonomic keyboard. Then you don't get set in one position.
I see that a few people have commented on wrist braces to help with typing and reduce pain. Can anyone say that they have used wrist braces and have they helped? Any kind of braces in particular?
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Are you sure your hands are closer together when using a laptop? Most laptops today (excluding the mini-laptops) seem to have standard-size key spacing.
I agree. I noticed I didn't have problems on my laptop. I hate the stupid trackpoint button but when I started using an external mouse the pain in my wrists (both!) came back.
I've tried switching the mouse from one had to the other every hour or so and it helps a little but the solution is not to use the mouse.
The problem with the trackpoint is that I get pain in the index knuckle. I also hate the "drift" caused by the auto-calibration.
Someday there will be a painless pointing device.
I've had several surgeries for wrist reconstruction from a military injury. As a result I have what amounts to carpal tunnel to an extent that you can't develop without artificial aid. Now, this is in one hand, so I have another to compare with.
My biggest problem was the mouse. Particularly holding it in a half-closed grasp for such long periods while moving it all around the table. My solution was to get a thumbwheel mouse.
As for keyboards, some are better for me than other. The ergo-keyboards never made much difference. The best one I found is the small keyboard that came with my Apple IIgs (also came with some Macs around 1990 or so). It's about 3/4 the size of others, and so it takes less movement to get to any given key. It's easier on my hands and faster for me. I consider it to be the Fender Stratocaster of keyboards; the Strat was a favorite for lead guitars in part due to it's 3/4 normal size.
"I may be synthetic, but I'm not stupid." -- Bishop 341-B
For me, using an ergonomic keyboard causes MORE pain than a regular one. The thing is, nothing is the "best" solution, there's only what works for you. For me, a small left-handed mouse and a straight keyboard, works the best. (Switching to mousing on the left was easy, and basically resolved the problem.) Some people do better with a trackball, or an ergo keyboard. I can't use either.
Anyway, the point is, not everything designed to be "ergonomic" is going to work for everyone. If the laptop keyboard works for you, try to find a keyboard that's about the same size/configuration. Also try a different mouse, or mouse with your other hand.
Good luck!
I was a full time College student, a part time programmer, and a part time guitar/bass player. I've been diagnosed with tendonitis in both wrists a few times over a period of a few years (I was prescribed non-steroidal anti-inflammatory like Celebrex - didn't really help, same as Advil, but much more expensive). A year ago I was diagnosed with (bilateral) Carpal Tunnel Syndrome, for which the orthopedic surgeon prescribed a pair of these wrist braces. I got them much cheaper that than that site's list price, both together came out to about 100$ USD. After get some more test results, the orthopedic surgeon doesn't know what's going on and he's sending me off to a Rheumatologist!?!
As for laptop keyboard being better than ergonomic keyboards, I wouldn't be able to generalize. Some people find those split keyboards much worse. I have found that my old IBM Thinkpad 760E (shrug!) keyboard is comfortable but I wouldn't say better than a regular keyboard. I have to admit though, that the trackpoint on my Thinkpad is very useful and much more comfortable than any mouse (bye bye FPS)!
Best advice I can give to most people is take the preventative approach:I had a Logitech Marble mouse (trackball) (I had tried the Trackman FX but didn't like it) for a while, and when it was still new, I thought it helped but I don't think it really did. I recently switch back to a regular optical mouse and realized that it's about the same. The best for me has been the trackpoint so far, but I haven't used it for long enough.
Be very careful with those rest pads that are placed in front of the keyboard and mouse. They are there to rest your wrists on only when you're not typing or moving the mouse. I didn't find them effective either.
Hope it helps!I've used an ergonomic keyboard for a short while and found it to be incredibly annoying to navigate. Especially the 'bent it half' Micro$oft keyboards, which required me to bend my forearms into something approaching a large pretzel. Not to mention the fact I was continually looking for keys.
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I think laptops are actually in general more ergonomic, at least it feels that way to me. Of course, I have to compare my laptop (sitting on my desk head on) to my desktop, which has a CRT that has to sit on my desk to the side because of the size of the tube.
The first thing that makes laptops more ergonomic is the monitor. If you are looking head on with the monitor while typing, which is exactly what you do when you use a laptop because you have to (It's not like you can unmount the monitor and move it.), you are reducing neck strain. Also, the fact that you are using an LCD monitor helps (flicker, eye strain); although a lot of people are making the move to desktop LCDs (smart decision; CRTs are killers for numerous reasons but that's not what we're talking about here).
Laptop keyboards seem to have an easier action to the keys. They require less force to push down and thus you can even type faster (imho).
Key placement is a big issue. Wouldn't the world be great if we all used dvorak? Well. Maybe not. But the "accessory" keys (the keys that aren't letters, numbers, or the space bar) should be thoughtfully placed. I have a Toshiba P15-S479 and I have noticed that all the Toshiba laptops move the keys around a bit.
My favourite Toshiba keyboard difference is the placement of the windows logo key. I primarily use it in the "Win+M" mode so having it in the top right corner means I only need one hand to use that function. The fact that there is a separator between the number and F keys that is small, yet large enough to keep your fingers from going astray, also reduces the need to "reach" for the keys.
I think the largest benefit of laptop keyboard is you don't have to reach for anything. All the keys are close together and even the mouse is right beneath the keyboard when you're using a touchpad.
I used to carry around a USB mouse all the time because of my hatred for the touchpad but I've been using it more often and it has actually been really nice. It's quicker to access when you are typing a document in Word for example and need to access the menu buttons a lot. And the fact that you can click by tapping the touchpad is also great because it means you can navigate your computer using only one finger instead of involving your thumb and making your hand twist at an odd angle (try it).
Overall I think laptops are pretty ergonomic, even though they get such a bad reputation for being bad. Using a laptop actually on your lap, say on a couch, is also beneficial because you're whole body is relaxed. Even if it didn't ease the wrist pain I think using a laptop in the comfort of a deck chair or fireside (ok, maybe tv-side) couch just makes me happier and more productive.
But I've always been an advocate of the "do what you find to be best for you and not what someone else finds is best for everyone" philosophy. So, if you have a laptop, try surfing from the couch for awhile. It might just grow on you. (WiFi networking helps)
Sorry for my long comment, I hope it made some sense.
I've got tendinitis and found that changing from a normal mouse to an ergo mouse (mine's the Whale by Humanscale -- it looks ridiculous, like a squashed, normal mouse) helped more than anything because I no longer move it with my wrist but with the length of my arm (ie at the elbow). Exercises from a physiotherapist helped a lot too. I haven't got an opinion about the laptop apart from the fact that -- like someone said -- the keys are probably softer.
I noticed the same thing and my desktop has a CRT monitor while the laptop is much less eye-straining LCD. I agree with the other poster-I can move my laptop around on my lap or on the floor. I can easily tilt the screen. I can't do the same with my 21" monitor. I think my real ergonomic problem with the desktop is that the table it is on is too high.
I get a pain on my back on the mid left side whenever I use my desktop with the MS Natural keyboard and an optical mouse (I'm right handed). The laptop is so much nicer to use.