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A Thoughtful Look at Indian Outsourcing

thefinite writes "This article needs to be read by anyone interested in the outsourcing of IT jobs to India, no matter your opinion of it. It dispels some rumors (for example, if Indian IT companies do such bad work, why are over half of Carnegie Mellon's highest-rated programming companies Indian?). It addresses all of the arguments. Perhaps most importantly, it adds faces to the problem. It not only tells us about the American programmers who are out of jobs, but also about the Indians who are getting them. In the end of it, this is what Free Trade is about: people. This article makes that clear."

65 of 1,772 comments (clear)

  1. Cannonfodder by AKAImBatman · · Score: 3, Insightful

    This article is simply a sensational piece. It's intent is to say, "See? Look at all the smart programmers we found in India! Don't you feel ashamed of yourselves now?" At which point both sides of the argument will start shouting.

    Do yourself a favor. Realize that there are smart people in India, and there are smart people in the US. Realize that the amount of outsourcing done is ineffective and will change, but some outsourcing works and will work.

    1. Re:Cannonfodder by CaptBubba · · Score: 4, Insightful
      "I don't think we have the right to complain if an Indian coder takes our job."

      Oh, we can bitch all we want about it, as we have the right to free speach.

      Now, whether we have a good basis for our complaints or not is the real question.

    2. Re:Cannonfodder by cyril3 · · Score: 5, Insightful
      They're probably more effective workers

      They are efficient coders because of the relative cost advantage they have over US based coders. Probably related to there being 4 times as many. US didn't have a problem that needed 4 times as many coders.

      being devoid of western egos

      I don't remember any part of Hindu that promotes loss of ego. In any case Indians have their own impediments with caste and family ties that probably cause as much organizational difficulties as individualism does in western organizations.

      Agree with the rest but then I'm not a coder so it's 'your' job not 'our' job.

    3. Re:Cannonfodder by hawkbug · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Are you serious? Have you worked with a programming team from India before? Had anyone come over to your company on an H1B to assist you during busy season? If not, you have no idea what you're talking about. What the hell is "western egos"? Do you know anything about the different Sects in India, and which one most college educated Indian workers come from? Trust me, India has just as many egotistical programmers as any other country in the world - so don't go around assuming either side is more productive.

    4. Re:Cannonfodder by tealover · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The problem is that Western Culture has generated most of the wealth in the world today because of the virtues of inventiveness and risktaking. I don't see Indians having those virtues.

      Why don't Indians create rather than accept being cheap labor? Let's be honest, they are no different than Mexicans who come to California to pick grapes. They just have degrees.

      A national economy cannot be sustained if it doesn't encourage the creation of local businesses. This is why Mexico's primary foreign relation impetus with the U.S. is making it easier for illegal Mexican immigrants to gain legal status -- They want the money these illegals send back to Mexico.

      Why can't they create jobs for their own people?

      India and other countries like it may enjoy the benefits of outsourcing for now, but in the long term they are suckling at a teat that is drying up.

      --
      -- You see, there would be these conclusions that you could jump to
    5. Re:Cannonfodder by endikos · · Score: 4, Insightful

      When the loss of a job means suddenly having to wonder how food is going to get put on the table for a family that depends on that income, we have every right to complain that a job is gone. Keeping your spouse and children housed, clothed, and fed has nothing to do with ego. Ego doesnt get involved until you decide that you're above taking a reduction in pay or position in order to obtain new employment, even though nothing else is available.

    6. Re:Cannonfodder by Atzanteol · · Score: 5, Insightful

      In any case us western countries have had the lion's share of the distribution of wealth for far too long at the expense of poorer nations. I don't think we have the right to complain if an Indian coder takes our job.

      Well, forgive me if I'm not as self depreciating as you are, but I feel as though I have *plenty* of right to bitch about my job going over seas. What's with this hippy 'let the rest of the world succeed while destroying ourselves' attitude? Why must I sacrifice my job for someone from another nation?

      --
      "Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge"

      - Charles Darwin
    7. Re:Cannonfodder by RobinH · · Score: 5, Insightful

      In any case us western countries have had the lion's share of the distribution of wealth for far too long at the expense of poorer nations.

      There are two types of wealth: natural resources, and everything else. You might argue that natural resources are "distributed" in some unfair way, but by far most of the wealth in this world is created by people. Emphasis on created.

      If I mow your lawn, fix your car, or write some software for you, I've created wealth. In return, you give me money, which is a token of the wealth you created and gave to other people (unless you happen to own a lot of oil, timber, iron ore, etc., in which case you got the money by selling off this wealth that you "found").

      The west didn't get all its' wealth given to it. The economic climate was designed to be (and lucky enough to be) the most conducive to economic growth. It encouraged people to create wealth because they get to keep some of it.

      As more countries reform their economic systems, the populace will create wealth for themselves, and the other nations with wealth to invest will see these new markets as profitable, and do business there.

      That doesn't stop you from making wealth for yourself, it just means that you have more competition.

      I say, bring 'em on!

      --
      "I have never let my schooling interfere with my education." - Mark Twain
    8. Re:Cannonfodder by Atzanteol · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Spoken like a true conservative - "ME, ME, ME"

      So when are you going to give me all your stuff? Come now, don't be selfish!

      *pure* capitalism isn't a good thing.
      *pure* communism isn't a good thing.
      *pure* democracy isn't a good thing.

      We must use common sense. No single ideology will succeed. The United States Government has a duty to protect the interest of it's own citizens. It does *not* have the duty to ensure that Indians get wealthy. I personally hope some sort of penalties are applied to those companies out-sourcing vast amounts of jobs. Or that large benefits are given to those who refuse to do so. Probably the latter, as I prefer to use the carrot than the stick...

      --
      "Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge"

      - Charles Darwin
    9. Re:Cannonfodder by rfsayre · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Indeed. The contrasts the article draws are spurious as well. Indian with an engineering degree vs. self-taught VB programmer. I'm not saying that reflects the truth of the matter, but you'd think they could have found an anecdote about an American with an engineering degree being out of work.

    10. Re:Cannonfodder by ebusinessmedia1 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      1) Game over! Manufacturing:
      17-18 million Chinese will migrate *every year* to China's coastal manufacturing provinces and cities *for the next 18-20 years*.

      2) Game Over! Software/Hardware Engineering:
      *320,000 engineers graduated in the Pacific Rim in 1999 (excluding Japan, where wages are high)
      *65,000 engineers graduated in the US in 1999 (80,000 - if you count graduate students)
      [[*1999 National Science Foundation, audited numbers]]

      3) Game Over! American Technology Services Sector (e.g. Accenture, IBM (consulting), etc):
      Massive infrastructure shifts to the services sector in Pacific Rim countries who have lost manufacturing jobs to China

      There is virtually nothing anyone can do about outsourcing - and the fast developing intellectual capital resources of the rest of the world - that will insulate American workers, with the exception of regressive protectionism (which will result in an even worse situation).

      In fact, *anyone* who's occupation does not *require* face-to-face contact
      is at risk of displacement, long-term.

      The next big 'thing' will be social entrepreneurial plays that bring social
      and fiscal efficiencies into mature capitalism, on a large scale. Also,
      people will learn - in general, and long-term - to be happy with somewhat
      more limited material horizons (and probably enjoy life more). This is as
      plain as day, and already in the cards.

      Politicians will not/cannot do anything to abate the outsourcing trend. Why?
      Because capital is "on the wire", and doesn't know national boundaries any
      longer. Corporations answer only to fiscal mandates, created by law. Game over!

      So, say "ta-ta" to the gravy train; let's learn to optimize our intellectual and social capital, learn to cooperate (intra- and inter-nationally), and become creatively and commercially fierce (like the rest of the world).

      There are *three* general solutions to this problem, with the third being social 'adjustment', made by Americans:

      1) Unlock the potential of American economic diversity with aggressive public policy. This means mandating changes - in telecommunications, manufacturing, education, and other vital sectors - that enable Americans to take advantage of their enormous intellectual capital.

      2) Encourage the growth of social entrepreneurial activity, with the goal of creating massive private and public efficiencies from the great wealth of intellectual, financial, and social capital held by Americans.

      3) Social adjustment. Americans will learn to cooperate (among themselves, and with others) more - over the long-term - and realize that there are limits and consequences to great wealth.

      All solutions are related.

      Here's to making those solutions happen!

    11. Re:Cannonfodder by Rimbo · · Score: 5, Insightful
      Well, forgive me if I'm not as self depreciating as you are, but I feel as though I have *plenty* of right to bitch about my job going over seas. What's with this hippy 'let the rest of the world succeed while destroying ourselves' attitude? Why must I sacrifice my job for someone from another nation?


      You didn't sacrifice your job. Your job disappeared, and no amount of wishing, screaming, arguing, protesting, legislating, hoping, lobbying, letter-writing, bribing, petitioning, imagining, discussing, complaining, worrying, fretting, bothering, sign-writing, stalking, or planning will bring it back.

      Your best bet is to find another job.

      This is how it is; it cannot be otherwise.
    12. Re:Cannonfodder by 110010001000 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      "Why continue to argue about it, just don't do business with companies that outsource to India. "

      You better stop visiting Slashdot then, because their parent company VA Software is a big producer of software that assists in "offshoring" of jobs.

      Just see their recent press releases here:

      http://www.vasoftware.com/press.php/2003/1164.ht ml

      Hell, just look at their home page!

    13. Re:Cannonfodder by Master+Bait · · Score: 3, Insightful
      You are so very mistaken about "free trade" with India. Western countries can't export shit to India because they are an essentially closed market. This isn't "free trade" it is "free consumption on credit".

      India has some of the highest import tarrifs in the world, local content laws, and property ownership laws.

      --
      "Only in their dreams can men truly be free 'twas always thus, and always thus will be."
      --Tom Schulman
    14. Re:Cannonfodder by Malc · · Score: 4, Insightful

      What is the cost of protectionism? How many jobs will be lost be preventing companies from outsourcing? The recent allegations that I've heard suggest the GWB's attempts to protect jobs in the steel industry through import tariffs has resulted in more jobs being lost in dependent undustries, such as the automotive one. You want to penalise companies that outsource, yet this cost will be passed on to their customers, who might not buy enough resulting in job losses anyway.

    15. Re:Cannonfodder by NemoX · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Fact: The US is a country that has the least amount of vacation days per year then any other county. one of many references

      Fact: The average US employee works more hours per week then every other country in the world. reference

      So, pretty much it takes at LEAST 3 Indians to do 1 American's job. I don't care if you compare smart people to smart people or stupid people to stupid people.

      Try explaining that to my past co-worker who got laid off (along with 35 other people) 1 week after his wife had a premature baby with complications. Explain to him why his job went to India!

      Just remember that this "lion" gives more of its wealth to foreign countries that any other 3 countries combined, in foreign aid.

      Are you one of those not so smart Indian exchange students? You sure sound like it.

      And if they think that we are outsourcing to them because they are better instead of just plain cheaper then why must they come to the US for most of their training and education?

      Anyone who thinks outsourcing to India is any more then a political chess move, or for the capitalist companies of America to save a few million dollars a year, needs to rethink the facts. And if you think this is all "Ok", and live in the US maybe it's time for you to outsource yourself!

    16. Re:Cannonfodder by ccmay · · Score: 4, Insightful
      Unlock the potential of American economic diversity with aggressive public policy. This means mandating changes - in telecommunications, manufacturing, education, and other vital sectors - that enable Americans to take advantage of their enormous intellectual capital.

      God save this country from busybodies and good-government types who want "mandates" and "aggressive public policy". That horse shit has been tried for years in Europe, with unsurprisingly poor results.

      Keep taxes low, spending down, and government regulations minimized and predictable. Everything else government does is secondary, if not counterproductive.

      -ccm

      --
      Too much Law; not enough Order.
    17. Re:Cannonfodder by theLOUDroom · · Score: 4, Insightful

      You want to penalise companies that outsource, yet this cost will be passed on to their customers, who might not buy enough resulting in job losses anyway.

      But the consumers won't have money anyways, because all their jobs were shipped to India.

      Get it? That's the problem. It's called the "race to the bottom". In a world with totally free trade, wages would quickly become as low as possible. I'm talking "don't ever think about owning a car or buying a house" low. This is not a good thing. What you end up with is not this magic thing where "everyone gets uplifted". What you get is companies bargain-shopping for the hungriest people.

      Sure, tariffs and such can hurt if relied on to much, be they exist for a very good reason.

      If you want to know what you're talking about, you should do a little research on Flint, Michigan. Sure those cars got made cheaper, but do you think any of those new workers in Mexico could afford to buy one? And what about the total devistation of Flint? There's more to worry about that "costs being passed on to consumers". There are things like human costs.

      --
      Life is too short to proofread.
    18. Re:Cannonfodder by Goth+Biker+Babe · · Score: 4, Insightful
      I have been working with Indian developers for the last year or so. My observations are these (qualified with the statement that I cannot assume all the Indian subcontractors are like this but only the one's I've worked with).
      • They are no less or no more clever than any coders from other nationalities I have worked with.
      • They do not seem imaginative. I now have a policy whereby the design work is carried out in house with the sub-contractors carrying out the development to that design.
      • Communication isn't good. This may be the language barrier but the friendly communication I have with other developers just doesn't happen and so we cannot work as closely together. Hence...
      • They don't like iterative development. They want a spec and then do the work returning it as a finished product. It's very difficult to get them to release early code so that reviews and possibly revisions to the design can be carried out. And...
      • Our contractors are not good at working with other developers. You can give them a project and they will complete it but you can't give them a subsystem. Which isn't very useful as we have a component based development system.
      • You have to work through the team leader. There is very much a hierachy which is formally adhered to. You can be having a video conference with a team but all will stay quiet except for the team leader. This is possibly a hangover of the cast system?
      • The code is naeve. I.e. it has the feel of code created by someone who has only just learnt C and has little non educational experience. Also the concept of reusability in code and designs seems alien. Probably because they are used to working on products in their entirity. When provided with components to use in their development it is very very hard to get them not to modify the components themselves.
      • So basically I'm now using them as code grinders which allows me to get on and architect solutions.

      It's all very remeniscent of the early days of computing and submitting programs to be run and then receiving the output a week later to debug. As I said above my experiences may not be common. Also outsourcing hasn't completely killed recruitment at the company and to be honest can be an advantage as we can pick the best candidates who then get exiting work to do rather than testing or writing test suites and the like.
  2. The end of the industry as we know it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Irregardless of the angle placed upon the situation or the people involved, the "outsource-to-India" thing is affecting more than a few American jobs. This is a global problem.

    Realistically, IT workers (non-management) need to consider their jobs redundant and over in five years. Make sure you've got skills that require onsite presence, like cabling.

    The industry is just about finished, people, and it's getting worse. Give it a little longer and we'll see the likes of Sun vanish, HP is exiting the Unix market and the Linux bubble will eventually burst.

    Can *you* make coffee?

    1. Re:The end of the industry as we know it by Kosgrove · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I disagree with the parent poster's assessment. It's never going to be the end of the industry. The US IT jobs are going to have to move to smaller, quicker-moving, better thinking, innovative companies. I'm currently in the job hunt, so I'd have every reason to be worried or negative or whatever, but there will be a job out there for you if you look in the right place.

      I've had ZERO luck doing so much as speaking with a non-HR person in any of the large companies, but I've had a much better time of it with smaller companies. My advice for those of you that are unemployed and pissed off about outsourcing is to start reading the local business journals, something many geeks are adverse to doing, because they only care about the code (administering Linux boxes, etc), and find out who are the growing, privately-owned companieis in the area, and get on the damn phone and start calling. There's likely very little you can do to stop Dell or IBM from outsourcing to India, but I guarantee a 5-person development company in the US is not going to outsource your job.

      Getting pissed off about the whole thing is just a waste of energy.

  3. Outsourcing is a good thing... by SilentT · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I find it rather ironic that so many people in America, the land of capitalism, hate outsourcing so much. This is simple economics right out of Adam Smith. People in India can do the same things as people here in the States, and at a significantly lower price. Therefore, they get the jobs, and rightfully so. One good benefit for Americans is that this allows their employers to use that money elsewhere. And yeah, IT job salaries might fall, and some people might have find jobs outside the IT field. But for the most part Indians need these jobs much worse than we do. I'm willing to bet that as far as possessions go, the average unemployed computer geek is significanlty better off than the Indian worker who "stole" his job.

    1. Re:Outsourcing is a good thing... by TrekCycling · · Score: 5, Insightful

      You're right. They use that money elsewhere.

      Bigger boats
      $15,000 watches
      Expensive artwork
      Marble dog-houses
      McMegaMansions

      The little guy doesn't get to assemble these either, by the way. Those jobs have also been outsourced. We get to sell them if we're lucky. This isn't the economy Adam Smith envisioned. It's capitalism to it's logical excess. The rich keep getting richer. The poor keep getting poorer. There are 5+ billion people on the planet, right? Once the 2 billion or whatever in India become too expensive, they have 4 billion more they can exploit.

    2. Re:Outsourcing is a good thing... by TrekCycling · · Score: 4, Insightful

      That's the big thing the apologists miss. America is expensive. I'd love it personally if this were not the case. Then I wouldn't have had to take out $30,000 in student loans to get an education to get out of poverty.

      Their reasoning is that we're supposed to be nimble and get educated again. To what end? When I have 7 PHDs and $1million in student debt will that be enough? Will their be a job I can get? Or should I just go apply for Wal-Mart greeter now? Because this "learn more and keep up" crap is stupid. I already know what I need to know to do my job. So my choices are spend more money going to school or get a service job. Great choice.

    3. Re:Outsourcing is a good thing... by enjo13 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      A competitive advantage is all about value. Can you produce a better product, and for how much? The reason that Japenese did so well in the auto markets is that they not only produced BETTER cars, but did it for less.

      In this case India is showing that they have a competitive advantage in programming. They can produce code at the required level and do it for FAR less than the American programmer.

      It is not, however, a race to the bottom. The Indian salary will not remain static. As the number of jobs and the complexity of the problems increase (remember, workers are a market just like anything else) the salary will begin to rise. As the rest of the economy begins to feel the benefits of this economic boon in India, more and more IT workers will begin to do other things. Eventually the global market will achieve Equilibrium and the competitive advantage will close.

      We talk about how these theories are untested, well we've seen the results of this same phenemenon in auto manufacturing. After all, remember all of those car building jobs we 'lost' two decades ago? Well, they're coming back in droves. The Japanese auto makers are now turning to American labor to build those same cars, as the Japanese workers salary has now surpassed the American auto workers salary.. factor in the cost of shipping those cars across the ocean and American labor makes a ton of sense for that field.

      Of course, you almost never hear about that outside of economic nerd circles.. I guess we all just like to whine.. A LOT.

      --
      Turn s60 photos into awesome videos with mScrapbook for all S60 3rd edition phones!
    4. Re:Outsourcing is a good thing... by wesmills · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Your figures are WAY off, I'm terribly sorry to admit. First, we'll assume that you get to take home that entire $11k with no taxes because it's below the income witholding limit. I can knock your entire math right off the level with this one figure:

      Mortgage -
      $127,006 financed at 6.5% after 3% down for 30 years fixed. Property taxes (currently $3900/yr) and property insurance (currently $1019/yr) included. FHA-required mortgage insurance ($53/month) included.

      Monthly: $1276
      Annual: $15,312

      Checking account balance: -$4132

      And that's for a modest 3 bedroom, 2 bath house in an inexpensive suburb of Dallas.

      For those of us who have a family to support, and have made the "mistake" of buying into the so-called American Dream, $11,000 per year is nowhere near enough.

    5. Re:Outsourcing is a good thing... by TrekCycling · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Good post.

      That's essentially the problem for many of us. We did what we were supposed to, or what we thought we had to to compete. We saw the manufacturing jobs fleeing, so we took out student loans, etc. to get better jobs. We got those better jobs, which came with higher taxes. So we bought houses. Now, all of a sudden, we have no jobs. Still have the houses. Still have the student loans. Now I'm supposed to live on $11,000 a year? Come join the real world (not you, but the poster before).

    6. Re:Outsourcing is a good thing... by Atzanteol · · Score: 3, Insightful

      But for the most part Indians need these jobs much worse than we do.

      Tough. Yes, you heard me. Tough. I want my job. My company is based in my country, and I say they have an obligation to support their own country first.

      One must mix capitalism with a healthy dose of patriotism. It's in the best interest of the United States that jobs stay within the nation.

      --
      "Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge"

      - Charles Darwin
    7. Re:Outsourcing is a good thing... by ChaosDiscord · · Score: 3, Insightful
      One must mix capitalism with a healthy dose of patriotism.

      Why? Are Indians fundamentally less deserving of well paid jobs than Americans?

      While I am very worried for my career, I just can't bring myself to think, "I was born an American and therefore deserve a higher standard of living, even at the expense of others." Reports are claiming that these $11,000 a year jobs are creating a healthy middle class who enjoys roughly the same sort of lifestyle I do. While I do see the specific appeal of "I would rather have a good job than someone else," it's harder to say, "I would rather my country has jobs instead of your country having jobs." Ultimately we're all on the same planet and we're all human beings.

      I love my country, but I can't bring myself to wish ill on other countries, and that's exactly what you're suggesting.

      On a barely related note, if you want world peace, we need an international middle class. Once you're reasonably comfortable it's hard to justify putting your life on the line. There are exceptions, but on the whole terrorism is an activity of the poor and desperate.

    8. Re:Outsourcing is a good thing... by Afty0r · · Score: 3, Insightful
      Then I worked 40-70 hours a week for the last 7 years while also putting time in to teach myself new skills. I deserve success. I've earned it.


      WHAT?!!?! You mean you've worked hard for the last seven years or so - to be succesful and "earn" it you have to demonstrate alot of value to people who are willing to give you wealth in exchange for that value. You have *not* done that, obviously, or you would not be on here bitching.

      The old adage of "work smarter, not harder" has never been more applicable. If you're not getting what you want from your chosen direction, chagne it. No-one owes you anything, hell you owe OTHER PEOPLE money in the form of student loans for your education, and it looks like you made bad choices there... they were your bad choices though, and you reap the consequences.
  4. No by dj28 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    That's one thing this is NOT about: free trade. Free trade is when an unemployed American computer scientist can go to India to get a job. Guess what? It's impossible for Americans to get work visas in India. Why? Because they are protectionist.

    People need to realize that the exodus of jobs is a one-way ticket. Indians can come over here and work as programmers, but Americans can't go to India. This is really a story of the American worker getting shafted by the illusion of "free trade." So let's stop the propaganda and say what it really is.

  5. It's not the Indian programmers... by fildo · · Score: 5, Insightful

    ... it's the white collar execs (and wannabe execs) here in Corporate America that we're mad at!

    They get the nice fat promotions and bonuses, while our jobs go elsewhere. And we are the same people they praised just last year as invaluable assets to the company.

    So what happened? They can't get rich pulling fancy accounting tricks, so this is what they've resorted to.

    I seriously hope that I'm wrong when I predict that this whole thing will fail miserably (taking the off-shore jobs with it).

    1. Re:It's not the Indian programmers... by mandalayx · · Score: 4, Insightful


      They get the nice fat promotions and bonuses, while our jobs go elsewhere. And we are the same people they praised just last year as invaluable assets to the company.

      So what happened? They can't get rich pulling fancy accounting tricks, so this is what they've resorted to.


      Recall that the primary objective of most corporations is only to make money. Everything else is secondary, including you and me. You can take that $120k job but remember that you're signing with a company--and management--whose primary driver is to make money.

      Don't like the system? You can start your own company. I'm going to try that out, personally.

    2. Re:It's not the Indian programmers... by puppet10 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Actually the primary purpose of coprorations is to create value which has been perverted in recent times to be all about short term monetary gains, partly because that fattens up the compensation packages for the upper level execs so management's primary goal has become profits and more money rather than increasing sharholder value.

      Value can be about much more than money especially when you are thinking farther than 1 or 2 quarters ahead, which is where the upper level execs should be looking. A good value increasing strategy can be a loser for short term profits but beneficial to the company overall in the longer term.

      Outsourcing your core business (which I admit many companies who are outsourcing to India arent doing) is very dangerous in the mid to long term outlook for the value of your company because you are eventually going to create your own strong competitors in your own markets, while reducing your own staff including some of the employees who produce the value in your company.

      However its very attractive in the very short term because cutting costs results in an immediate increase in the bottom line - and profits cause shares to go up in the current market environment regardless if they are wise in the long term.

      --
      -------- This space intentionally left blank --------
    3. Re:It's not the Indian programmers... by kcbrown · · Score: 4, Insightful
      Recall that the primary objective of most corporations is only to make money. Everything else is secondary, including you and me. You can take that $120k job but remember that you're signing with a company--and management--whose primary driver is to make money.

      Oh, yeah? Then why aren't they offshoring the management jobs, too, huh?

      Right. It's not just about making money for the corporation.

      --
      Use 'slashdot stuff' in the subject line in any email you send me if you want to get past the spam filter.
  6. Re:That's all well and good.... by peeping_Thomist · · Score: 4, Insightful
    It's all about the rich getting richer, nothing more.

    Funny, it also looks like it's in part about the poor getting richer.

    --
    Anything worth doing is worth doing badly -- G.K. Chesterton
  7. america are overpaid? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Could it just be that because of America's prosperity has created a "bubble" in the american labor market over the past decades?

    Maybe all americans are simply overpaid and we're in for a BIG correction in the coming years?

    Kinda scary.

    1. Re:america are overpaid? by 0rbit4l · · Score: 4, Insightful
      Maybe all americans are simply overpaid and we're in for a BIG correction in the coming years?

      We've already had the correction. When some schmuck finishing his sophomore year of college made $80,000 for making web pages with Frontpage, that was a bubble that needed correction. We're on the other side of that now - when reasonably skilled programmers out of top-tier universities can't get jobs that pay over $30,000 (and they're lucky to have that). It's obscene to say that someone who gets a four-year degree developing a fairly technical skill deserves to barely gets paid enough to get by and make payments on their university debt. There's something wrong with this picture. Quite honestly, we're crossing the threshhold where going to college may no longer be the financially "best" option out there - trade school and a good apprenticeship in auto repair gets you a more marketable skill that actually pays better, with far less education (and cost thereof.) Again - something is wrong with this picture, and it ain't that programmers are "overpaid".

  8. Re:Opposition is racist by javiercero · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The key word is not "better" but "cheaper", it happened with manufacturing jobs in the past 2 decades... it started happening with other jobs now. As long as executive positions are not being outsourced Corporate America could care less about who is doing the job, and the quality of it.

    In some sense it is economic suicide, sure you produce cheaper goods, but those who are in this country to buy them are out of jobs. I.e. they have no money to buy those cheap goods, and the people who produced the goods are too underpayed to afford those goods. This is why MBA schools should be shut down once and for all, they have been produced miserable failures for the past 2 decades, a ton of greedy idiot savants who are unable to see the whole picture.

    I could care less if Indian companies can do the same job better, or cheaper. If that was the case Indian corporations would rule the market, if there was indeed a perfect free economic system as the article sort of tried to hint.

  9. Re:Stolen? No. US techs give jobs away. by TrekCycling · · Score: 3, Insightful

    How must I compete, Mensa? Lower my standard of living to $11,000 per year? Move to India? Become a nuclear physicist or nanotechnologist overnight (until that job gets outsourced)? This "do a better job, loser" garbage gets old. This has nothing to do with "better". It has to do with the fact that there are 5-some billion people on this planet so they can keep moving from country to country paying the lowest possible wages to get what they want. They being the rich. It has nothing to do with our effort or skill level.

  10. SEI CMM by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    The reason that India has a disproportionate number of SEI CMM level 5 companies is that with ridiculously cheap labor you can afford to create a Potempkin process on top of the rampant hacking.

    Having worked with two Level 5 organizations, one level 4, and several level 3, I can assure you it's just expensive window dressing. Motorola foisted this fraud on the world in order to keep their Malcolm Baldridge award (they were told they had find something similiar to their six sigma program, but for software). The way you get to levels 2 through 5 is to fire the internal assessors (yes, they self assess folks), until their replacements tell you what you want to hear (Ye Gads, you're a level 3 organization!).

    Unfortunately, the cost of generating the useless paper for the audit trail costs as much as generating the actual software, so they farmed out the work to their internal offshore software factories (at first in India, but now, wherever hords of programmers are cheap).

    The vast majority of Indian job shops are also self assessed, and comically so (I've been told by some directors of SE that they are SEI CMM 3.5). The real problem is that the CMM has never been objectively validated. You hear wonderful claims by the SEPGs, and CMM - but their jobs depend on it, so fudging is expected. The proof is in the pudding, and when times got tough at Motorola, the CMM and Six Sigma specialists were the first to go. There's now grumbling about what to do with Global Software Group (their internal offshore outsourceing groups). Cheap is still no deal if it don't work.

  11. Re:You do not understand by TwistedSquare · · Score: 4, Insightful
    Correct me if I'm wrong but it is hard enough for foreigners to get American work permits that it isn't too far off no-one. Have you got a reference on the Indian law? Does it specify just Americans or is it other nationalities too?

    Two wrongs do not make a right, but the USA, along with most Western nations have been taking advantage of other nations through trade with developing nations for years (sweatshops anyone?), unfortunately it is just the way the world works.

  12. This problem is not as big as some think by 3770 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    See,

    most of the jobs that are moving out of the country are the type of jobs that are high profile. And therefor we hear a lot about it.

    Typically, it is programming projects that require teams of 20 or 30 people (maybe) and that lasts for a year or longer.

    But many programmers are employed where proximity is important and where the primary product isn't the software itself. Maybe it is a small financial institution or maybe a factory which needs a few programmers to build in house systems.

    Sure, it sucks when HP, Sun and others move their big and fun projects to India, but many jobs will remain here, because it isn't cost effective to move them to India.

    --
    The Internet is full. Go Away!!!
  13. It's NOT about Free Trade by Brataccas · · Score: 3, Insightful
    Oh brother, here we go again. First of all, it's not a Free Trade issue, I can't exactly go to India and grab one of these jobs.

    But, really, there is a much more important issue that doesn't seem to be getting airtime. As a software developer, I have no problem with India or any other country doing my job. However, claiming that this is all just "capitalism at work" and developers should just "suck it up" is a specious argument, at best. I pay taxes to support the government, which in turn supports the citizens and corporations here in the US (I'm not interested in addressing whether this is the proper function of govt., that's just how it is right now). These corporations are taking those government granted favors (in the form of subsidies, tax breaks, trade favors, patent and copyright protections, use of infrasturcture resources such as highways, etc etc etc ) and hiring people overseas. Now, if MS or IBM wants to move their headquarters over to India, fine, so be it. But I truly believe it's a crock to take advantage of the pro-business US laws, excellent infrastructure, a competent policing force, and all the other services that developed under our system of capitalism, and then not supporting the community that supports you. I'm not talking handouts or redistribution of wealth, I'm talking about the long-term consequences of this sort of policy. Yes, US software developers cost more, but the cost of that worker is factoring in a lot of "unseen" advantages that are granted to companies founded here.

    The environment that allowed MS and IBM and all the rest to grow and prosper is unique to the United States. These companies would have never happened if they had started in India.

  14. Re:Bad code? by Carnildo · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I'd say you were talking through your racist hat on this one.

    I wouldn't have an outsourced Indian firm do the human interface design on a project either, and it has nothing to do with racism.

    India has a different culture than the United States, so interface design assumptions that seem perfectly obvious to someone in India might be completely incomprehensible to someone from the US, and vice versa.

    For example, consider that a user interface designed by programmers for programmers will have as many options as the programmers could shoehorn in. That UI will seem too complicated to use for the typical J. Random User, while a UI for J. Random will seem too constrained for the liking of a programmer. Now, multiply that sort of thing tenfold, and factor in things like the meanings of colors (red for danger/stop, etc.). That's what can happen if the human interface is designed in one culture, but used by another.

    --
    "They redundantly repeated themselves over and over again incessantly without end ad infinitum" -- ibid.
  15. How many steel workers are left today? by SPYvSPY · · Score: 4, Insightful

    How many loggers while you're at it? Face it--the fantasy world of overpaid IT jobs is gone forever. You have a skill that is basically fungible in today's world, and can be purchased at a lower price than would sustain or satisfy you. What IT people have been failing to understand for years now is that technology expertise is not as valuable a skill as it was once perceived. In fact, a lot of technology work is drudgery on the order of rivetting and lever-pulling. Too bad for those who were counting on making $300,000 a year. Time to reinvent yourself. The steelworkers did it. The loggers did it. Now it's your turn.

  16. Re:Bad code? by wankledot · · Score: 3, Insightful
    Racist? Blow it out your ass.

    I wouldn't rely on ANY outsourced firm for that kind of work, much less one half way around the world that doesn't speak my language. It's not a matter of them being Indian, Jewish, Chinese, French, or Dutch, it's a matter of them not being able to communicate with me on the same level as someone in my own company, or at least someone I can meet with in person and have a easy conversation with. It's hard enough to explain ideas about design to someone you know in person who speaks your language. Trying to communicate that to someone far away who doesn't is harder. And that hardship is rarely worth the savings I might see in what I pay them.

    That's the kind of thing that shows itself in the end. Outsourced software is of lesser quality because of the communication gaps, not because of the quality of the code that the people in other countries write. There are ways around it, but they are expensive, which is exactly what the outsourcing tried to avoid in the first place.

    --
    My sig is blank, I typed this by hand.
  17. Re:Bad code? by jmccay · · Score: 3, Insightful

    You have a point, but what's next? There is nothing big next! Every article and story keeps talking about jobs shifting to the next big thing, but there is a problem--the is no next big thing. As one person said in the article, "where do you go after knowledge". The last shift was towards knowledge based industries, and now there isn't anything to shift too.

    --
    At the next eco-hypocrisy-meeting, count the private jets used to get to the meeting. Should be interesting to see that
  18. Re:Bull5hit by doktor-hladnjak · · Score: 4, Insightful
    Do yourself a favor and look up the IIT, Indian Institute of Technology. It's _the_ technical school in the world. MIT, Berkeley, CalTech, CWRU, Carnegie Melon, etc. take those who can't get accepted into this school.

    First of there's not just one IIT; they are a system of seven institutions of higher education (Kharagpur, Mumbai (Bombay), Chennai (Madras), Kanpur, Delhi, Guwahati and the newest Roorkee).

    Second, it's important to realize that many of the students from India who do the best in their undergraduate class become graduate students at those American institutions you listed as well as other institutions (some not very impressive at all) in North America and Europe. It is still a big deal in India to go a major American university. I have a few friends who did their undergad at an IIT campus. All of them left India for graduate study, because the research opportunities there are just not as good as in the West (although the situation has been improving steadily over the years). I will grant that the undergraduate education there seems to be particularly strong though.

    Furthermore, it's important to realize that just because IIT admits such a small fraction of its applicants does not necessarily make the educational opportunities there better. Selectivity does not always equal quality. If anything, it calls into question India's ability to offer access to quality higher education for its population.

    Learning is a cultural thing. While many american kids are focused on TV, Britney Spears, video games, etc, these kids start training hard for school at a young age, in the hope of their families to be able to enter IIT years later.

    I do have to agree with this in general. In America, there is a very anti-academic tone culturally (even in schools). However, you have to question the quality of a life where from the womb all you do is study in order to get into a good university where all you do is work in order to get a code-monkey job which is your life.

    Even when I went to highschool, there were probably a couple kids in a graduating class of ~400 I'd consider truly gifted students. Often I'm seeing the gifted students were foreign born, because their parents don't indulge their children with crap culture, but expect them to start preparing themselves to be citizens at a young age. It's usually the second and third generation parents who fall into the typical american lack of concern and discipline.

    For this, I think you have to look at what kind of people are first-generation Americans. It doesn't just take a lot of work and/or a lot of money to immigrate to a foreign country. It takes ambition as well. Immigrants are therefore more likely to be ambitious about themselves and their kids.

  19. The article is biased and pollitically motivated by Orion+Blastar · · Score: 4, Insightful
    to villianize the US IT workers who are out of work and trying to fight to get their jobs back in the US. Obviously the article was written by someone who supports the corporations' moves to India for IT work. It is the old "blame the victims" tactic.

    I know of many US companies who make a living teaching companies in other countries like India about quality control and the way that US Businesses do business. If Indian companies had good quality, these companies would be out of business and not have business booming. I shall cite some examples of the quality of offshoring below.

    Thing is, most IT workers, such as me, do not blame the people taking our jobs, but the companies making the move to other countries and cutting us loose. This is a global trend that is not going to stop unless there is some law passed against it, which I doubt will happen.

    First it was a Labor Shortage which was a big lie by the Corporations to get rid of US workers and replace them with H1B Visa workers or outsource to India. Now that there is a surplus of IT Workers, they still claim there is an IT shortage and need to move more jobs overseas.

    Where is the beef? Where is the quality that Indian companies are supposed to have? Apparently they did not have Quality at Dell when they moved a Help Desk over to India. Where is the quality in programs written? Security issues are a big risk and we are supposed to trust someone we cannot even watch from half a world away that they will not harm source code or be a risk to security?

    Of course there is always hidden Malware to consider. Really nice of them to put in a back door or virus or trojan to access the corp system after the Indian programmers are let go when the project is over.

    Oh yeah, the myth that it is cheaper. Consider the Hidden costs of Ofshoring nothing like a project going over budget and full of bugs and needing US developers to fit it. Once again, where is the beef? That quality is just not there once again.

    It seems that India is America's silent partner. We may not even hear about it during the election year. When a government is more interested in rewriting copyright laws so that the RIAA can sue 13 year-old girls and fair use is out of the picture, I wonder who our politicians really work for? Certainly not the US Citizens, only Corporations. So of course they support the wholesale slaughter of US IT Workers and the export of IT jobs overseas.

    Ah but there is a big risk involved in Offshoring. Sort of like taking all the company stock to Las Vegas and betting it all on number 35 on the Roulette Wheel. :) Just ask those who craft the contracts about the risks involved.

    Nice to meet the people that are taking the jobs moved to India. Also nice to know they are not concerned that US Workers are losing their jobs to keep the Indian workers employed. I'd think if I was given a job at someone else's expense that I would quote my religious or culutral references instead as well when asked to respond to that. :)

    Maybe we should personalize the US IT Workers too. Here is Bob, he worked for a Fortune 500 company for the past 15 years developing award winning programs and his work gained the company many patents. Bob holds a Masters in Information Systems. Management decided that he earns too much, so he was terminated and his job was sent with many others over to an IT sweatshop i

    --
    Remember, Slashdot does not have a -1 disagree moderation, and no, troll, flamebait, and overrated are not substitutes.
  20. Re:Bull5hit by fupeg · · Score: 4, Insightful
    Do yourself a favor and look up the IIT, Indian Institute of Technology. It's _the_ technical school in the world. MIT, Berkeley, CalTech, CWRU, Carnegie Melon, etc. take those who can't get accepted into this school
    First off, it's Caltech, not CalTech. Caltech (and to a lesser degree some of the other schools you listed) concentrates on what Teddy Roosevelt called the "100th man." The term comes from a speach by Roosevelt at Caltech where he talked about producing 100 graduates: 99 being "mean who are to do given pieces of industrial work better than any one else can do them" but the 100th being the kind with "the cultural and scientific training that will make him and his fellows the matrix out which you can develop a man like the great astronomer George Ellery Hale" i.e. creative thinkers instead of commodity engineers. That is the difference between Caltech (as well as some other American universities) and IIT. That is also the point that the Wired article wanted to make too. America can produce the 100th man and let others produce the other 99.

    While I take offense and you trying to rank IIT above Caltech (as I'm sure the many Nobel prize winners from Caltech would as well,) I think you hit on an important aspect of American culture. We have a culture that does not promote education. We ridicule our smartest people (look at how many words we have in our vernacular for making fun of smart people.) We praise athletes or singers or pleasant looking people, but not scientists or mathematicians...

    Large corporations (HP and Intel immediately come to mind) are fond of saying that they 1.) have to offshore to stay compettitive but 2.) America needs better education system because they can't find quality engineers here. These two thing seemingly contradictory at first, but they're not once you realize that maybe Intel would outsource to Arkansas if it was possible. Don't you think that if Corporation XYZ could open a new office in Arkansas, or South Carolina, or Wyoming, i.e. a place with lower cost of living and lower pay scales, then they would've done that before they "sent" their jobs to India? For that matter, even here in California you'd have a hard time hiring 100 programmers in Fresno, which is only a few hours from Silicon Valley and has 500,000 people living there. Of course there's no shortage of programmers in Silicon Valley, all needing $70K just to pay rent, but you cannot go to less expensive parts of the country and find skilled labor.
  21. Re:The problems with outsourcing by Rimbo · · Score: 4, Insightful
    Sooner or later America will realize this and legislation will be put into place to stop it.


    Or, the problem will correct itself.

    I hope that Americans are wise enough not to do something so foolish as to enact legislation to stop outsourcing. Unfortunately, people are that stupid.
  22. Au Contrair by Exousia · · Score: 4, Insightful

    "no amount of wishing, screaming, arguing, protesting, legislating, hoping, lobbying, letter-writing, bribing, petitioning, imagining, discussing, complaining, worrying, fretting, bothering, sign-writing, stalking, or planning will bring it back"

    You are quite wrong. Much of the debate of the next Presidential election will focus on the "free trade" policies that are gutting the middle class in the U.S. to the benefit of U.S. Big Business. Many many middle class people who used to have decent jobs who now are out of work, or working at WalMart, are mad as hell. American workers are coming to realize that they cannot compete with overseas workers who earn a pittance. In the end, no amount of money from Big Business will keep the electorate from kicking the guilty parties out of office. Thankfully Indian programmers cannot vote for American congressmen and Presidents.

    --

    --Slashdot: News for Turds. Stuff that Splatters.
    1. Re:Au Contrair by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful


      You are quite wrong. Much of the debate of the next Presidential election will focus on the "free trade" policies that are gutting the middle class in the U.S. to the benefit of U.S. Big Business. Many many middle class people who used to have decent jobs who now are out of work, or working at WalMart, are mad as hell. American workers are coming to realize that they cannot compete with overseas workers who earn a pittance. In the end, no amount of money from Big Business will keep the electorate from kicking the guilty parties out of office. Thankfully Indian programmers cannot vote for American congressmen and Presidents


      if not anything else, americans are myopic forgetful idiots. Everything about america reflects this... Let me explain myself before you can call me a flame bait -

      Everyone today is complaining about "Walmartization" of the country, at the same time enjoying the fruits of it i.e. cheap goods. Have you realized how much the dollar fell in the last 2 years or so? Did that reflect in inflation? Do you even know how tough it would be once the inflation starts spiralling? ( I do, because I come from a different country). So, if you stop walmartization aka globalization, the next thing you see is that a deoderant stick will cost 10 bucks in your *local owned* store and a replacement part for your computer will cost several times the cost of the market value of the PC u are using. At the same time, health care costs will spiral up and employers will be reluctant to increase pay while covering ur health care costs. The cheap mortgage you got because of other countries putting their money in US treasuries and bonds will no longer be viable and you will be forced to renegotiate for a higher interest rate or face forclosure, because those countries will shift investments to euro instead of the dollar. If u dont think this is possible, then pull up a list of nations that "invested" in USSR and not USA.

      Having explained myself, let me point out your myopia - you are crying hoarse at the negative impact of globalization on you but not looking at what it has done positively. You are also forgetting that how protectionist measures have beggered countries - eastern bloc and soviet union and many other nations including India and Brazil. I dont have a solution to all your personal problems. But what I am telling you is that you are not factoring in many things into your own reasoning.

    2. Re:Au Contrair by Eskarel · · Score: 4, Insightful
      I don't really have a problem with Indians having work, the thing I have a problem with is that I, as someone living in the United states cannot compete with someone from India, it isn't possible, because of the relative cost of living an Indian programmer can be well off on a salary that wouldn't pay my rent. I can't fix that, I can't turn 10 grand into a maintainable lifestyle, they can. There is absolutely nothing I can do about that.

      Nor do prices go down substantially when products are shipped overseas, have you seen any sort of dramatic drop in the cost of any sort of software(buisness or otherwise) accompanying this move to outsourcing overseas, or even to the continued use of contractors for jobs here rather than salaried employees with benefits packages. I haven't.

      The problem with free trade, at least as it exists now is that it doesn't really help the regular American populace at all, the companies benefit(temporarily) because they can sell products at American prices while paying overseas costs increasing their profits. The overseas employees benefit because for them, the lower costs earn them a good living.

      The problem is that the system relies on people being able to pay American scaled prices for the items, as more jobs get shipped overseas this simply won't be possible anymore. We're not talking about people being forced to work for less, we're talking about people being out of work all together. Even if prices did drop people who are out of work all together or working for close to minimum wage don't really care, even a 50% reduction if cost wouldn't make up for an 80% reduction in income.

  23. Misplaced scorn. by C10H14N2 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    The problem with The Wealth of Nations is that it boils everything down to arbitrage. Unfortunately, the technology that really only came into being over the last decade have made nearly everything a potential for international arbitrage. This is not just a problem for the United States, although the United States seems to be the last to blush at it from a governmental point of view. This is something that every single one of the so-called "global North" are worried about because if everything is distilled to "capital" and "labor," well, labor is cheaper almost anywhere else. Labor is cheaper in Canada and Mexico. You don't even need to go to India. You think we've got problems with that? Go to Germany or Scandanavia where labor is even more expensive.

    OF COURSE it is a "good thing" to the recipients of the work in underdeveloped countries. However, CEO salaries are on average thirty times what even the President of the United States makes. The CEO of Abercrombie & Fitch makes about half of the compensation for the entire House of Representatives and Senate combined. The AVERAGE CEO compensation is $11,000,000 per year--thats 39,285% more than the average American. A Dilbert cartoon recently opined on this where Alice is speaking to the CEO and asks, "I work 70 hour weeks and I don't make $40 million per year. Do you work twenty-eight thousand hours per week?" Note, this is a characterization of someone making $100,000 per year -- in the top eight percent in the United States.

    This "they need the jobs more than we do" is ridiculous. That's a race to the bottom. Almost EVERYONE needs the jobs more than we do. By comparison, the unemployed computer programmer needs the $60k that used to be his salary about two hundred times more than the CEO who outsourced his job. Put your scorn for the overpaid where it belongs.

    $60k in 2004 is $27k in 1980 dollars. Anyone who remembers 1980 remembers that was a painfully modest salary then. We're getting lost in a collective memory lapse where the numbers we see today are impressive compared to what we experienced a decade or two ago. In 1980, the pay gap between worker and CEO was only about 42:1. In 1990, it was 84:1. In 2000, it was 531:1. That's a jump of 44,700% in ten years. That's a compounded 192% raise every year. If a $60k computer programmer performed that well, they'd be making $40 million per year after ten years. In the meantime, we can all sit back and party like it's 1981. YAY.

    As for this argument from possessions, the cost of possessions is relative to the location. Anyone who has travelled abroad at all realizes that the standard of living that $50k affords in the United States costs $100k in Sweden, costs $25k in Poland and about $15k in India. A $7.50/hour engineer in India is SIGNIFICANTLY better off than an unemployed computer programmer in the United States by virtue of the fact that it costs many times as much just to stay alive in the United States as it does to live in luxury in India.

    That is the nature of arbitrage. You'd think by blathering Adam Smith you'd realize that.

  24. Cheap workers in America by CustomDesigned · · Score: 3, Insightful
    So workers in NYC and SFO are way too expensive. This is because it is way too expensive to live in those places. I wouldn't want to live in those places (some people like them, I guess). If a company wants to pay $11000/yr for a talented programmer, what about places in the boonies in America? Appalachia? Arkansas?

    What? The people living there have little education? They don't even know how to use a computer? Well, I'd be glad to live in the sticks and telecommute - just like those Indian workers. While some may prefer the city, I'm sure that quite a few geeks would prefer the sticks, like I do.

    The problem is, the corporation won't let you live in the sticks. They insist that you relocate to the most expensive regions. Then they complain that you are too expensive - because the cost of living in NYC, NoVa, SFO, LAX, etc is so high - and outsource your job to India.

    My distaste for the city prevented my from taking a number of high salary offers. Also partly because the salary wasn't really all that high after talking to people who lived where I would have to move to. My friends were in incredulous that I wouild turn down $90K. But $90K is peanuts in SFO (even 10 years ago when I had the offer). Now I am glad that I stayed away.

    There is really only one fundamental problem preventing cheaper Tech labor in America. Lack of infrastructure. Lack of education can be worked around by moving people like me to low cost areas. This creates more demand for technical education, and more qualified native workers will turn up as local kids get turned on to tech. However, telecommuting requires a decent broadband internet connection. In the sticks, you can't get DSL or Cable, so you have to get T1. That runs $600/mo, which adds $7500 to your salary right off the bat.

  25. Missing Important Fact by rshakoori · · Score: 3, Insightful

    There are a lot of fallacies with this article presented here.

    In almost every major pro-outsourcing argument, history is mentioned that back in the turn of the century farmers moved to the factories. And in mid 30's and 40's, migration from the factories to the cities started. So essentially a lot of the workers were trained in newer "better" jobs.

    True...

    Except everyone fails to mention this important fact: it all happened internally within one economy so overall affect was positive for the U.S. worker/economy/country. Workers moved from farms to factories then offices (spanning generations), to higher salaries, better standard of life and etc.

    So what is just the U.S. IT worker will do? Train for a better a job? Such as law, or medicine? If one wanted to become a lawyer, s/he would have never majored in computer science. And worse, loss of IT job in the U.S. means lost income and tax revenue.

    Ultimately, the Indian IT worker's salary will also go high, but then there will be Malaysia, Indonesia, and etc. Don't forget China.

    Just what are Americans are supposed to do?

    Here's a question: with the low-end (farm and service industry) jobs to be filled by Mexican workers, mid-level (such as customer service - AOL anyone?) jobs to be outsourced to India and others, manufacturing jobs gone forever (challenging to find any product made in U.S.A anymore), high-tech jobs and products outsourced to India and made in Taiwan, steel industry succumbs to cheaper import, I ask again just what are Americans are supposed to do? How many lawyers, dentists, and doctors do we need? Or are we supposed to become car salesmen at local dealerships?

  26. Bah, superstition! by Rimbo · · Score: 5, Insightful

    You may implement fair trade policies. You may implement trade restrictions. You can declare war on India. You can vote Democrat. You can vote Green. You can vote Libertarian. You can enact a law that forces all US companies to use only US Citizens for all software engineering labor, to force them to use only foreign labor, or anything in-between. You can make it all free, or all restricted.

    The reason businesses choose to hire cheap programmers is because that is how much they are willing to pay. If you artificially try to raise that price, they will not hire programmers at the higher price; the projects will simply go away.

    You will not make your job come back. It is gone FOREVER. It is a dead issue. Politics and greed are simply irrelevant; this is the reality you must face and deal with constructively, by looking for ways to adapt your skills.

    A brief aside:

    I have little sympathy for the millions of my fellow Americans who charged into the gold rush of computers in the 90's who now have no jobs. I did not choose this lifestyle because I had dollar signs in my eyes. I chose it because it is who I am and have always been.

    I am fortunate that people are willing to continue to pay me to do something which I enjoy and do well. But I am not so naive to think that this will always be the case; I am mostly concerned with whether or not I am providing more value to my employer than I cost. If I fail to do so, then it is up to me to find new ways to be productive.

    And I'm lucky in that my employer actually asked me to provide weekly status reports. Imagine that -- he actually ASKED me to do something which I really wanted to do anyway: Once a week, I remind my bosses how I am contributing more value to him than he is having to pay me. And by doing so, he is happy because he feels he is getting a bargain, and I am happy because I am well-paid, enjoying my job, and likely to keep it.

    But there's more than that. I'm also keeping up on the industries we're in, and the trends in those industries. And I am using that to get advance warning of what skills I will need to brush up on, and the likelihood of my company succeeding in certain areas, and most importantly, when the project I am is in danger of becoming cancelled by the company.

    My resume' is a marvel of marketing: It tells an employer not just that I have skills, but that I do this because I enjoy it, have always enjoyed it, and have a history of seeking to make value for my employers.

    I don't have to like doing this. I just have to do it. That is part of being a professional. That is part of adapting to reality.

    This is how you deal with a down job market constructively! You can go ahead and do your superstitious lobbying and your arcane petitions to the witch doctors in Congress to somehow magically summon your long-dead, buried, and decomposed job from the grave. There is no evidence that such mythical sorcery has ever managed to successfully resurrect a job, and it's not for a lack of trying!

    Fuck politics. Instead, market yourself well. Learn about the industry you work in. Make your goal to produce more value than you cost. Do these things, and you never need worry about having a job, regardless of what you do or where you do it.

    1. Re:Bah, superstition! by Godeke · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Amen. I have been a consultant in this industry since I was sixteen years old. Not because I was trying to cash in, but because this is what I'm good at. I have seen no diminishing demand for my services because I have a proven track record. I even have outsourced to India some work I didn't find interesting - I don't find it a threat, but a relief to be able to take the boring, redundent and less creative aspects and focus instead on the process of design, architecture and simply working with the customer to get a job done right. (Of course, after I get the code back, I generally then add it to my code generation libraries, so I don't outsource often, just when a large chunk of code needs to be hammered out that isn't of great interest to me.)

      --
      Sig under construction since 1998.
    2. Re:Bah, superstition! by crazyphilman · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Of course, you realize that your "weekly status reports" are being used to build a document justifying your replacement with an L-1 or an H1-B. They will eventually be used to train your successor. You will be commanded to participate in his training in return for a pittance of severance pay and a favorable reference. I wish I could be there when they wipe the smirk off your face with a pinkslip.

      That job you're so proud of? Dust in the wind. Good luck to you...

      --
      Farewell! It's been a fine buncha years!
    3. Re:Bah, superstition! by aWalrus · · Score: 4, Insightful

      So using cheap labor from overseas is right when it's done to manufacture Nike shoes, but wrong when taking your overpaid job?

      I wasn't aware that only the upper middle class voted in the United States.

      It's called capitalism. Americans have reminded the rest of the world of this fact for decades, remember?

      --
      Overcaffeinated. Angry geeks.
  27. Re:Look at this: by TKinias · · Score: 4, Insightful

    scripsit rmassa:

    An $11,000 salary in India is about a $700,000 US salary

    That's a somewhat misleading statistic. I assume you're basing that on median income or something similar rather than cost of living data (I didn't find where you got your figures on the site you cited). As someone who has lived and worked both in the States and in a developing country, I fully appreciate how much farther a dollar goes in a poor country. It is quite nice, for example, to be able to afford to eat out all the time, have a maid, etc., while making less than U.S. minimum wage. However, once you move beyond food, domestic servants, and (to a lesser extent) housing, you realize just how poor you are. Want a car? Those are quite a bit more expensive than in the States. Ditto for any kind of electronics (computers, stereos, TVs). Travel abroad? That costs you just as much as it costs an American.

    Bottom line: That $11,000 may make you as rich, compared to other Indians, as making $700,000 does in the States, but it still makes you poor on a global scale. For a geek, that's significant: imagine how rich $700,000 would make you feel if the shiny new laptop you wanted cost $200,000, and if a compact car cost about $2,000,000!

    --
    In principio creauit Linus Linucem.
  28. Re:Bull5hit by NormalVisual · · Score: 3, Insightful

    However, you have to question the quality of a life where from the womb all you do is study in order to get into a good university where all you do is work in order to get a code-monkey job which is your life.

    This is true, but from the American perspective, it's not very encouraging to see that you can work hard, study, blow some serious cash on school, and then have your job sold out from under you, leaving you with $7/hour flipping burgers and trying to pay off those student loans. That's one aspect of the Wired article that was almost completely ignored - with all of the people saying, "just move laterally into another field", no one seems to have a good idea just how to afford that lateral move and the training it entails, especially for the poor schmucks that are just now graduating.

    There are lots of comparisons made with the steel and textile industries, but those didn't require an expensive specialized education that suddenly became worthless. Also, there is *such* a gap between the COL between here and India - the Wired article mentions that the project manager they interviewed makes $11,000 per year and lives quite comfortably - that's practically at U.S. minimum wage and not really a sum you could live on here.

    I guess that this whole thing is an object lesson in going into business for oneself - when it comes down to it, you're the only person that can really be trusted to look out for you, because you can't trust an employer to give a damn.

    --
    Please stand clear of the doors, por favor mantenganse alejado de las puertas
  29. Outsourcing similar to Open Source? by Analysis+Paralysis · · Score: 3, Insightful

    A lot of the comments about being "unable to compete" with regard to outsourcing can also be made by commercial software companies trying to compete with Open/Free source software. The answer typically given is that Open/Free software raises the entry level and provides a better starting point for commercial companies to build upon.

    Similarly, Western IT professionals (it is not just the US having to deal with this issue by the way) concerned at this trend should try to acquire a broader-based skillset which includes business and creative as well as "pure" technical skills - and local knowledge that cannot be easily duplicated by an overseas company (in most organisations, it still is a case of not what you know but who you know).

    Also the companies outsourcing are mostly major corporations - which by their nature tend to stifle innovation with bureaucracy. Freeing up their workforce will make it easier for smaller companies to start, recruit, expand and innovate (provided the DOJ manages to rein in Microsoft). And it is only a matter of time before senior management and CEOs find themselves being outsourced (who needs a US-based board of directors when all the real decisions are being taken overseas?).

    Finally, this also provides the English language with a massive boost - India is gaining a real advantage due to their widespread use of English and other nations like China and Vietnam will have to do the same in order to grab a significant slice of the outsourcing pie (French/German/Spanish supremacists beware!).