Slashdot Mirror
Ask Indian Techies About 'Onshore Insourcing'
This Slashdot interview has a little twist to it. Instead of using email, I'm going to relay your questions 'live' to people I meet while I'm here in New Delhi, speaking at LinuxAsia2004. Offshore outsourcing has gotten a lot of attention on Slashdot (and NewsForge) lately, but I figure that from this end we ought to call it 'onshore insourcing' instead. Feel free to ask other questions about 'geek life' in India, too; I'll ask as many questions as I can of as many people as I can, and post their answers when I'm back in the U.S.
Long before outsourcing to India became an issue, large IT companies like American Airlines were virtual H1-B "hardship" visa factories, importing large numbers of technical experts from India and other countries during the dot-com boom.
But when the boom went bust, and the layoffs came, H1-B visa holders were left out in the cold, unable to even look for a new job due to the terms of their visas.
Do the IT professionals you've met feel that US companies and the US government used bait-and-switch tactics to take advantage of cheaper non-US workers? Or did those applying for H1-B visas know what they were in for?
And a follow-up question: does anyone think that US companies will hesitate to leave their outsourcing partners high and dry as soon as they (again) find a cheaper alternative?
Stressed? Me? Of course not. Stress is what a rubber band feels before it breaks, silly.
And is this for here or to go?
Ask them how they like my job.
Xenon, where's my money? -Borno
Out of the $25 it costs my company to hire an India-based developer, how much does that developer see, and how much goes to the contracting agency (Wipro, etc...)?
"The natural progress of things is for liberty to yield and government to gain ground." - Thomas Jefferson
How much experience do most Indian programmers have? It seems to me that in ramping up from a few hundred to thosands of programmers over the past few years, most of these people must be fresh out of school... how much training do people need before they start producing reliable results?
"Freedom means freedom for everybody" -- Dick Cheney
American workers have certain legal protections that drive up the cost of our wages. Do Indians have similar protections in the workplace? Are you allowed to organize into unions? How long is your work week? What are your working conditions like? What kind of benifits do you have? Vacation? Medical? Dental? Profit sharing? Stock options? I find myself wondering, if the playing field were truly level, would your labor still be so inexpensive?
But this is slashdot. A slashdoter who didn't build his own computer is like a Jedi who didn't build his own lightsaber!
The most important question I would like to ask is "Is the picture there as rosy as painted by the media?"
From what I keep hearing, the scenario there right now is being compared to the tech boom here (in US) in the 90s. Is it true that "If you have a degree, immaterial of what degree, you can get a tech job."
Free XBox, PS2
How do you feel about competing on what I see as a non-competitive playing field? $11,000 per year is a good salary in India, but wouldn't allow me to live above poverty in any U.S city.
With one billion people in India, what is being done to increase the number of employable people? Granted, while we in the US may not like our jobs leaving, it must be helpful to Indians. What is being done to increase the employability of the average Indian?
libertarianswag.com
Ask them if slashdot is popular in New Dehli?
To what effect is the Indian education making changes to keep up with the demand for trained IT people?
With the influx of cash and availability of higher incomes (according to local standards), how'd Indian real estate market doing? What does it cost to rent a two-bedroom for the family? To buy a house?
Do you think that Indian IT boom will repeat Californian and Eastern European patterns, where availability of US dollars drove the living costs through the roof, thus making developers not a whole lot cheaper than hiring local American engineers?
Do you see the costs rising in Indian real estate market? What would be the monthly salary, according to your estimate, to have a comfortable living in India in 2004, and let's say, 2009?
What is the bigget contrast between work and daily life in terms of:
-Internet Connection
-Electrictiy
-Water
-Living Space size when compared to office size
Don't Tread on OpenSource
What does a decent 2 bedroom apartment cost per month?
How about food for 1 month?
Utilities, etc?
"The last thing I want to do is deal with a bunch of people who want something."
Major Major
Athletic Scholarships to universities make as much sense as academic scholarships to sports teams.
How do you feel about the American programmers that are angry they lost their jobs to outsourcing? Do you think they have a right to be angry?
Is the attitude positive because of the increase in trade between us, negative because of cultural invasion, or a combination?
And I'm serious, don't just say "Oh, we love the West" if all you like is the outsourced job. I personally feel that trade is the best form of foreign aid, but I'd rather have an honest enemy than a ally who lies to me.
Call centre staff can earn more than teachers, police, nurses, etc - are those professions suffering as a result of the call centres picking out the English speakers?
Is this storing up problems for India's public sector in the future?
oh brave new world, that has such people in it!
This point has already been mentioned a bit by previous articles, but I'd like to hear an insider's take on it. The Indian tech economy is booming now, but like in the US, it's an unstable boom. Sooner or later, the US will look to other countries for their tech work, leaving India high and dry. What measures are being taken in India to maintain a strong internal tech economy, in the event that the US is no longer a serious customer?
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"Every jumbled pile of person has a thinking part that wonders what the part that isn't thinking isn't thinking of"-TMBG
Totally off topic, but I've always wondered: is the character Apu Nahasapeemapetilon on The Simpsons insulting to Indian's? Do they even air The Simpsons there?
There exists I think an assumption that the tech industry in India is a legion of coders being handed work from foreign companies, grunting it out for lower wages. Do Indian techs feel that they have the opportunity now to become the producers, the designers, the ones who create businesses? Frankafrank
"Other bands play, but Manowar KILLS"
Do you have a comparable quality of life to those in the US and UK? Does it bother you at all that you may be taking a job from a person in another country because you are working for what that other country considers a 'lesser' wage, but you consider a very good wage? Do you have any worries that this boom in outsourcing from the rest of the world may abruptly end, much like the dot.com boom ended, and if it does, what will you do then? how do you see India's econmy being effected by this? How much training and knowledge of programming do you have, what qualifications and such do you hold?
And this was not the case here in the USA during the "Dot Com Boom"? I sense an invalid argument...
"Who are in control, they are not in control of anything - they don't even control themselves!" - Glen Beck
My school's CS department was/is full of Indians. Do most of these students come here hoping to get jobs in America when they graduate or are they interested in going back to India and taking advantage of the outsourcing boom there? Are we as American technical workers shooting ourselves in the foot by helping to train our replacements in American academic institutions?
I'd ask: what are you all planning to do when your jobs go to Russia as soon as you become too expensive for the US corporations? Plan now, because it's starting to happen.
Hopefully you guys are able to weather the storm better than us.
"The market alone cannot provide sufficient constraints on corporation's penchant to cause harm." -- Joel Bakan
You know... because of the cow thing...
(It's a joke people!)
---- It puts the lotion on its skin or else it gets the hose again. It does this whenever it's told.
There are many here who read slashdot who do computer stuff for the love of computers. They work on OpenSource projects for no money. In their spare time, they use a computer. Lots here, I would say, would be happy with half decent pay and just program all day long.
Do the majority do compter related employees do it for the money or for the love or working with computers?
If they were offered more money, would they switch in an instant?
The surprise isn't how often we make bad choices; the surprise is how seldom they defeat us.
We hear conflicting reports from "$11,000 means you could live like a king" to "Material goods are so expensive there that you'd be much worse off there than here." What are conditions like for the average Indian programmer?
every country has it's own free software projects (that they are either started or maintain or fund). the usa can point to the gnu project, finland to linux, ireland to spamassassin, germany to gpg, wales to kernel hacking and gnome bug hunting and translations, etc.
i think there's a lack of visability in english-speaking countries as to the contributions from non-english speaking countries. what free software projects are "indian" that those of us in the english speaking world might not be aware of?
US Citizen living abroad? Register to vote!
One of the arguments for free trade and the internationalization of companies and the work force is the raising of living standards around the world--the rising tide lifts all ships.
The argument against is that companies in the USA out-source and move off-shore to save money--increasing profits by paying less in wages and widening the gap between rich and poor.
From the USA it's pretty clear that whatever the intent, the result is the later. Ford doesn't build in China so Chinese workers can earn enough to buy Fords; Ford builds in China to make more profit on cars it sells in North America and Europe. (To be fair, the American worker complains about jobs moving over seas, then goes to WalMart and insists on $10 shirts and fresh tomatoes year round.)
So how do things look on the other side? Is the Indian standard of living raised by this influx of foreign work, or do companies pay just enough to be competitive to the existing standard and keep the benefits of free trade at the top?
I'd like to know how long it will be before Indian tech professionals start forming startup companies to compete directly with their American corporate masters using what they have learned from them.
The Indians are not stupid. They know that it's just a matter of time before the tech jobs go to the next lowest bidder. And just as British imperial domination was thrown off, so will American corporate domination. The American companies that have rushed to offshore outsourcing would be wise not to underestimate the power of nationalism.
To the making of books there is no end, so let's get started
From friends and colleagues I know a little bit about the caste system in India - both in terms of it's positive and negative discrimination so I wondered what sort of effect if any does this have on your work? For instance, a lot of software is developed in teams - are there sensitive issues to resolve if different members of the team are from different castes ?
I'm assuming this is not a serious post...
1. How's it feel being detested by most of an entire industry back in the US of A (with the exception of the bean counters) ?
I'm a developer in the US, and I still have my job, but I'm having a hard time finding a software job in the geographic area where I want to move. But I don't detest the Indian people, nor do I feel that they've "stolen a job" from me. They're people like us. They want to make a living, they want to provide for themselves and their families, they want what most of us want. Jobs are available, and they're taking them. It's not like they're gathering together in some secret clubhouse buried under a cavern in the Himalayas and plotting how to make Americans' lives miserable. The reason this is happening is because of globalization, and personally, I still haven't decided if I think it's a good thing or not. I'm not going to have the knee-jerk reaction of "Of course it's bad", because the fact is, monetarily speaking, one of me is worth about four top-notch Indian developers. At the same time, though, enrollment in CS and engineering in US schools is plummeting, with the exception of foreign students. Globalization is great until relations break down between us and the country where our talent pool lives.
So speaking as an American programmer whose current livelihood is threatened by globalization, I can say that I hold no grudge against India, Russia, China, or any other country whose citizens are no less human than I am, and whose governments have the same capacity for corruption as my own. My job is marginally safer, since I work for a defense contractor. But it's just a matter of time before my job goes away too, and I'm willing to change careers if I have to. Sure, I could rail against India and American CEOs and bean counters, but that won't put food on my table.
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"Every jumbled pile of person has a thinking part that wonders what the part that isn't thinking isn't thinking of"-TMBG
How much does an Indian college education cost the typical student? Is it government subsidized, or are students expected to pick up the entire cost? And how does that cost compare to the average yearly salary of a college-educated technology worker (ie, how long does it take you to pay of college debt?)
It seems as if I always hear of American management being exported to handle outsourced projects. What kind of opportunity for vertical mobility does that leave for Indian employees? Is there a "glass ceiling" that prevents you from reaching senior programmer, project manager or other leadership positions? Are all your supervisors and bosses Westerners or do some of you work for other native employees? Does this situation cause any resentment, and if so, have you considered or do you know of any that are planning becoming entrepreneurs? Lastly, what kind of resources are provided by Indian government to promote the growth of entrepreneurial business such as grants, loans or tax breaks?
You know, Slashdot does have quite a sizeable Indian community, though you might not be aware of it. So you might think about asking the questions here itself!
/.. Anyway, now that I'm done introducing myself let me see if I can answer some of the highest moderated questions.
I am an Indian and currently working for Tata Consultancy Services Ltd., India's largest software company that recently exceeded 1 billion dollars in revenue. Right now I am stationed in South America from where we cater to most of the Latin American countries. I'm pretty much the typical 'target' of most of the American outsourcing anger that gets vented here on
How do you feel about the American programmers that are angry they lost their jobs to outsourcing? Do you think they have a right to be angry?
The way most Indians see it, this is mostly American capitalism biting them back in the ass. We do the same thing you do, but we do it at cheaper rates. Sure, we understand that Americans wouldn't be too happy about losing their high-paying jobs, but that is something they will just have to deal with.
Cost of living etc. in India, with emphasis on real estate etc.
Most people who start out in the Indian IT industry do not earn that well. On an average, I would say it is pretty much the same as what one would get after graduating from one of the other engineering disciplines like EE, CE etc. However, with a few years of experience one can get quite a comfortable job. For example, a typical IT worker with 3-4 years of experience can land themselves a job that pays about Rs. 40,000 per month (~ $1000). This is a good income in a country like India where you can have servants in your house for about Rs. 2,000 per month. AFAIK, there has been no study which studies the impact of these new IT jobs on the real estate market, but obviously some effect must be there.
Is the picture there as rosy as painted by the media?
I hate to say this on Slashdot, but it is actually quite good. Students from reputable colleges and universities do not find it difficult to find jobs in the IT sector. However, I would not agree that the degree does not matter. Most companies (the good ones anyway) are quite choosy about the people they pick.
How much experience do most Indian programmers have?
I would say ~5 years on an average. Agreed, there are a LOT of new people coming into the industry, attracted by the 'gold rush', but there are quite a few old veterans here as well. For example, my company is over 35 years old, and it is not uncommon to find people who have been here for the past 7-8 years.
American workers have certain legal protections that drive up the cost of our wages. Do Indians have similar protections in the workplace? Are you allowed to organize into unions? How long is your work week? What are your working conditions like? What kind of benifits do you have? Vacation? Medical? Dental? Profit sharing? Stock options? I find myself wondering, if the playing field were truly level, would your labor still be so inexpensive?
No, the story you hear about 'sweatshops' are not true. Yes, we do have benefits. No, there no unions, yet. A typical week is 40 hours (8x5), but almost always is more than that, depending on the work load. Sometimes people do work for 15 hours straight, but on other days they also go home after putting in their normal 8 hours. We have vacations and medical benefits. TCS itself is not a public company, so there are no stock options here, but other public companies do give the option to their employees. Labour is inexpensive primarily because of two reasons - there are a LOT of people in India, and the cost of living is quite low.
How does it feel to have your skills and knowledge continuously disparaged by people with little or no experience of working with Indian programmers?
Personally, it bothers me
I work in India, and I am employed writing software. I make about 7000 rupees a week, and I work about ten hours a day on the average it changes every week. You are right that money is different here. For instance a succelent dinner for two is about fifty rupees.
-Srividya
Related to the experience question: Many US business pundits claim that the US is only outsourcing the low end code monkey and support jobs, and is keeping the higher end, more prestigeous "project management" and architect jobs in the US?
First, is this the case? or is India also excelling in architectural and design work?
If it is the case, is there a resentment for the imperialistic attitude in only giving India the low end projects?
Finally, in a land where there are real monkeys am I making a big cultural blunder by calling people "code monkeys"?
In the U.S., there is something of a geek subculture which Slashdot in particular caters to. Obviously, not all programmers are true geeks at heart, but among the people in America who are really fascinated by computers, you have a greatly disproportionate number who are into science fiction, RPGs/LARPs, Lord of the Rings, Legos, Anime, etc.
Does this apply in India as well? Would, say, a Unix systems programmer there typically have such things as interests? If not, are there analogous hobbies that distinguish the Indian geek from everyone else?
I, for one, don't entertain illusions that the US companies would fall in love with our work and ignore cheaper alternatives if they present themselves. I don't think anyone else here does either!
/. thread about this topic).
/. India outsourcing thread, one poster from India praised his firm's CMM level 4 or 5 achievement and talked about how they were getting the business because of their quality efforts. It's a nice goal and it'll retain a couple of accounts, but to pretend for a moment that you're being used because of your quality is like a prostitute thinking she's appreciated for her intellectual qualities.
supersam's got a good point. An associate of mine recently offshored his entire call center operations to the Phillipines. "Why not India?" I asked (after reading a recent
His answer was that India was too expensive. The Phillipines apparently works at half of what he was being quoted for India contracts. Granted, the English is a bit better in India, but when price is king, India's better quality product didn't matter. (India... hope you've enjoyed your 15 minutes!)
Where does it go from here? Many are drooling over China's expansion into these markets. Indonesia would be tempting if it was a bit more stable politically. Whever it can be done cheaper, the business will go.
I did find it amusing in a previous
Hopefully the Corporate "Johns" out there doing the outsourcing (my associate included) will be able to recognize that their own customers assume quality is inherent in their products/services and when their call services, software, manufacturing, etc. is lacking these qualities, consumers will shop with their feet. Still, a visit to WalMart leads me to question whether consumers really care at all about quality. They won't pay for it, but may assume it's there regardless of price.
A lot of people have already mentioned these facts but I thought I'd put it in a different light.
In your work as a "contracted employee" do you feel that you are providing the best customer service given the fact that English may be a second language for you, and that there might be a language gap?
Also, since the U.S. has such a strict laws regarding the export of its software, that you might not have the same version of the software as the folks whose work you are doing, or the people that you are helping, do you feel that it might hamper your ability to provide the best customer service?
-Goran
Carpe Scrotum - The only way to deal with your competition.
I was in India in 1999. Back when all this insantity started. I was invited through a friend I met on the internet who wanted to setup a web site farm in Mumbai. Of course I had NO idea it would come to this, But he set me up in a hotel in Goa, gave me SOME money, but not enough.
I hustled and got web site development jobs for the Goa Tourist industry, which was booming at the time.
Back then, the internet infrastructure was very primitive at best. Only ISP was the Indian Government's VSNL, and in Goa it was a joke. Even IF you could obtain a free dialup line (then, there were only 64 lines, and 300 internet cafe's competing for them).
The average Indian programmer was getting about $6,000 a year (1999), now I think it
s more like $15,000 and up.
Once word got out I was in Goa, many people flocked to me, but my Indian friend who initialy brought me over to india got all pissed off, because I took on more work without his approval. What could I do? I had to make money, and he wasn't supporting me anymore.
Anyway, India left a sort of "bad taste" in my mouth, not to mention that my body couldn't handle the food and I got sick all the time. Even though I lived in the tropics all my life, I thought I could deal with the Indian climate... BOY! I was wrong... Oppressivly hot in Feb and March, and constant rains in the monsoon season, I urge anyone considering moving to India to consider this.
One of the things my Indian friend pressed me on, was to train all his up-start programmers. At that time, I was a bit Naive, and eventually got fed up with the monsoons and left in July.
Anyway, this is MY experience in India.... I learned a lot (even picked up some Hindi).
My Q:
Given that the US has reaped the benefit of capitalism for hundreds of years which has seen them (and the rest of the first world) exploit the third world ruthlessly, do you not find it hypocrytical that US IT workers are now complaining about receiving 'the back of the invisible hand'?