Ask Indian Techies About 'Onshore Insourcing'

This Slashdot interview has a little twist to it. Instead of using email, I'm going to relay your questions 'live' to people I meet while I'm here in New Delhi, speaking at LinuxAsia2004. Offshore outsourcing has gotten a lot of attention on Slashdot (and NewsForge) lately, but I figure that from this end we ought to call it 'onshore insourcing' instead. Feel free to ask other questions about 'geek life' in India, too; I'll ask as many questions as I can of as many people as I can, and post their answers when I'm back in the U.S.

Comments

Before outsourcing, "hardship" visas

[RobertB-DC]

Long before outsourcing to India became an issue, large IT companies like American Airlines were virtual H1-B "hardship" visa factories, importing large numbers of technical experts from India and other countries during the dot-com boom.

But when the boom went bust, and the layoffs came, H1-B visa holders were left out in the cold, unable to even look for a new job due to the terms of their visas.

Do the IT professionals you've met feel that US companies and the US government used bait-and-switch tactics to take advantage of cheaper non-US workers? Or did those applying for H1-B visas know what they were in for?

And a follow-up question: does anyone think that US companies will hesitate to leave their outsourcing partners high and dry as soon as they (again) find a cheaper alternative?

Re:Before outsourcing, "hardship" visas

[supersam]

Since I'm an Indian techie, I'll attempt to answer that. But the disclaimer is that these are purely my personal views and not a general Indian opinion.

Do the IT professionals you've met feel that US companies and the US government used bait-and-switch tactics to take advantage of cheaper non-US workers? Or did those applying for H1-B visas know what they were in for?

It is quite clear that the US companies are using the tactics of outsourcing purely for their own financial benefit. It is extremely naive to think otherwise. And this is not just a US phenomenon. Every company around the world that outsources cheaper expertise and/or labour is doing just that... trying to get a competitive edge over its rivals by cutting costs. And I am sure that all the Indian developers (all but some of the greenhorns fresh out of college) know this fact when they're getting into it.

So why do the Indians still do it?

The Indian software firms use the US necessity as an opportunity to grow themselves internationally. An Indian company bagging a key US contract can proudly proclaim their achievement and use it as a differentiator amongst its local peers.

Some of the developers, who are geekily inclined, love the opportunity of doing some 'quality development' and so they hardly complain. Others are overjoyed at the prospect of travelling to the US and hence jump onto the bandwagon!

And a follow-up question: does anyone think that US companies will hesitate to leave their outsourcing partners high and dry as soon as they (again) find a cheaper alternative?

I, for one, don't entertain illusions that the US companies would fall in love with our work and ignore cheaper alternatives if they present themselves. I don't think anyone else here does either!

With the US (and the global) economy having gone through a rough patch over the last year, the Indian companies have slashed their margins big time, to remain attractive for the Us companies to continue doing business with them. And I think the Indians have understood that in the immediate future they will need to stay one step ahead of their competitors by being the cheapest even though India has managed to brand itself as a key mover of the knowledge-based economy.

Re:Before outsourcing, "hardship" visas

[vthome]

And a follow-up question: does anyone think that US companies will hesitate to leave their outsourcing partners high and dry as soon as they (again) find a cheaper alternative?

Sure they won't...

But they might find themselves sadly out of luck because of high "cost to exit". See, the capital involved in IT is the knowledge, therefore, the people. Companies are irrelevant. Trying to change the outsourcing provider means discarding currently invested capital and starting from scratch.

The reason this is not yet evident is because we're not through the first wave of excitement over outsourcing, and not too many companies have tried to switch over to "cheaper" outsourcing provider. But when the realization comes, the hangover will be bitter.

Re:Before outsourcing, "hardship" visas

[supersam]

uhh... I'm an Indian.

Re:Before outsourcing, "hardship" visas

[Anonymous Coward]

Right... because domestic slashdotters have such an exquisite command of the english language...

If only the Americans on slashdot wrote this well.

Re:Before outsourcing, "hardship" visas

[rueba]

India is an English speaking country.

In fact all the Indians I have met here in the US have had a pretty good grasp of the English language (albeit with a distinctive Indian accent;)).

Re:Before outsourcing, "hardship" visas

[jd142]

Most "foreigners" -- whatever that means given the global nature of a message board like slashdot -- probably write better English than most Americans. That's not to say their speech isn't heavily accented. It's very difficult to learn to speak a second language except from a very young age. Interestingly enough, people with vastly different accents can still understand each other with little difficulty. Language can be weird like that.

Re:Before outsourcing, "hardship" visas

[vranash]

Maybe they learned english and programming off of DalNet or EFNet? :-P -- vranash

Re:Before outsourcing, "hardship" visas

[AnonymousNoMore]

Well, alot of companies seem to have gotten no hangover as a result of discarding their "currently invested capital and starting from scratch" when they moved from U.S. to Indian based IT talent. As long as the labor cost difference is sufficient to counter the "exit cost" of throwing away current capital and yield a net increase ROI, there will be no hangover.

From the tone of your post, I infer that you are looking forward to a day of reckoning for these companies that outsource U.S. jobs. My advice: don't hold your breath.

Re:Before outsourcing, "hardship" visas

[yintercept]

the capital involved in IT is the knowledge, therefore, the people.

IT is unique in that we are gradually transferring the knowledge and defined business rules into machines. For that matter, one of the biggest challenges of a company is to free itself from dependencies on anyone worker or any one programmer.

The franchising business is a good case in point. What you do as a franchise is design a set of business rules that can be implemented by other entrepreneurs. Your goal is to design a business that is not dependent on a single player or an expertise. The franchise designs the business as a box, others can then implement it.

The challenge of most IT departments is to create a structure that can transition between different employees. For that matter, when I workd on a project, I try to design it so different people will be able to support and extend the project. To an extent, that means separating the people from the knowledge.

Re:Before outsourcing, "hardship" visas

[secolactico]

Most "foreigners" -- whatever that means given the global nature of a message board like slashdot -- probably write better English than most Americans

Speaking from personal experience, this is due mostly to self-consciousness. Our english tends to be the one we learn at school, at work and thru works of literature and Hollywood. So we usually take extra care when writing in a foreign language as not to commit a gaffe when doing so.

If it was in our native language, we'd simply write what comes naturally to us, complete with grammar and spelling errors. The levels of literacy vary, just like everywhere else in the world.

Re:Before outsourcing, "hardship" visas

[MightyZug]

Note: This is not to undermine the efforts of Indian buisnesses or thier employees. This is just an account of something that happened to me lately.

I called HP TotalCare because one of my HP laptops died on me and I needed to send it back. This happened over 2 phone calls and each was equally hard.

Each time, they had a canned opening and responses to certain questions, but when I strayed from the task at hand and asked a question, they couldn't answer, or they gave an unintelligable response. I found this quite fustrating because typically in the tech biz, there is a lot of shorthand, abbreviations or even slang that is used commonly to descibe something. I could not do this and found myself struggling to say certain things so he could understand. Not a really a bad thing, but when it comes to support, i would hope that the person on the other line to be dynamic in his understanding.

Re:Before outsourcing, "hardship" visas

[sl0wp0is0n]

Do the IT professionals you've met feel that US companies and the US government used bait-and-switch tactics to take advantage of cheaper non-US workers? Or did those applying for H1-B visas know what they were in for?

Another personal opinion from an Indian: I don't think US companies used any of the said tactics. I believe whosoever applies for an H1-B knows what he/she is getting himself/herself into. But, that's not to say something negative of the US compaines. What's happening here is for mutual benefit. There are laws to protect H1 workers so that they don't get underpaid and all, but still a small amount of prejudice exists and I think it is inevitable too.

Re:Before outsourcing, "hardship" visas

[rsidd]

Not to play stereotypes, but I've never seen such command of the language by a foreigner

Most educated Indians know English. It's taught in school, often as first language -- and it's the real English, not the American kind.

Re:Before outsourcing, "hardship" visas

[cesspool]

Do you really believe that there will be no fallout from these decisions down the road?

IMO the only way that outsourcing (as it currently is done) can be profitable is to ignore the long term effects of decreased QOS, the deleterious effects of eliminating those salaries from our economies and the inevitable decrease in GDP, not to mention the fact that these decisions make people HATE the decision makers and that hurts sales.

Re:Before outsourcing, "hardship" visas

[Corpus_Callosum]

ut they might find themselves sadly out of luck because of high "cost to exit". See, the capital involved in IT is the knowledge, therefore, the people. Companies are irrelevant. Trying to change the outsourcing provider means discarding currently invested capital and starting from scratch.

The reason this is not yet evident is because we're not through the first wave of excitement over outsourcing, and not too many companies have tried to switch over to "cheaper" outsourcing provider. But when the realization comes, the hangover will be bitter.

This fact is very well understood, because any company that engaged in outsourcing went through it when they moved projects from inside them company to outside the company. Don't make the mistake of feeling confident because of an illusion that the company needs you.

If it were that important (critical) to the client company, they would never have outsourced in the first place. If they did outsource something critical, it is only a matter of time before they realize their mistake and bring it back inside.

Either way, you are a commodity service and you will be replaced by the lowest bidder. The knoweldge lock-in that you talk about is an illusion. The moment a outsource firm tries to pull knowledge-lock-in extortion games is the moment the project moves from development/maintance phase to full documentation phase.

Re:Before outsourcing, "hardship" visas

[AnonymousNoMore]

I do believe that there will be fallout. I do not believe that the fallout will punish companies to the extent needed to cause a reverse in the trend to ship IT away from the U.S. labor pool.

I agree with you that the loss of salaries and lower GDP will harm the U.S. ecomomy as a whole. But corporations are global and they are developing markets all over the world. While Carly sends HP jobs to India, she is also selling printers and personal computers to the Indian IT workers who are now earning a middle class salary. So the net effect for HP is positive and the net effect for India is positive. The localized effect on U.S. share holders of HP is good. The net effect on U.S. workers with nondistiguished skill sets is bad.

The voice of the U.S. consumer has rapidly declining influence on corporations that are expanding into the global market. Just look at the number of companies that sent textile manufacturing overseas. They have flourished regardless of all the cries of injustice to the U.S. workers and the threats of grassroots protectionism.

I disagree that moving IT jobs offshore must result in lower QOS. I have worked directly with offshore engineering groups (India and U.K.) and I know first hand that they offshore groups are capable of producing excellent work.

Re:Before outsourcing, "hardship" visas

[cobra1729]

Agreed. On a similar note, I am more concerned with outsourcing because it is making the corporations even richer (and hence even more powerful). For instance, this info. is from the wired article mentioned in the header:

Typical salary for a programmer in the US: $70,000
Typical salary for a programmer in India: $8,000

True, $70,000 is way too high and $8,000 is way too low. But my point is: where is the missing $62,000/person? What about $620,000 for 10 persons or $6.2 million for 100 persons...? You get the idea...

On a concluding note, it is not only the corporations who are becoming richer. But, as an Indian American - I know of the consequences this has on a MAJORITY of the Indian population - make them even poorer.

Bharath (aka cobra1729)

Re:Before outsourcing, "hardship" visas

[CheeseTroll]

I've heard through the grapevine that it is standard procedure within my current employer's IT department to change the contract after a foreign worker has been in America for a month or two. They then have a choice: accept the lower pay, or return home. I don't know how this works, exactly, but it sounds like bait-and-switch to me, and I've often wondered how this practice is perceived by these workers.

A friend of mine who works at another large tech company in town said his company followed the same practice (until eventually outsourcing that work directly to their new subsidiary in India).

Re:Before outsourcing, "hardship" visas

[sl0wp0is0n]

I have a considerable number of friends in IT and I have never heard about this. It may be the case that I'm ill informed. Interesting to know that.

Re:Before outsourcing, "hardship" visas

[ahdeoz]

*yawn* Was the "e-myth" or some similar book on Oprah's list or is it part of some MLM scam required purchase kit? Because there are way too many people spouting that stuff these days.

Re:Before outsourcing, "hardship" visas

[CheeseTroll]

I'd never heard of it either, until I started working here. I imagine it's only the bigger companies, hiring a substantial number of H1-B's, who have the leverage to get away with this. I'd never worked at a corporation nearly this large before.

Being a contract worker myself for the past 4 months, I have come to the realization that these contracts are *hardly* set in stone, especially with regards to their length or compensation. This can work to either side's advantage, depending on supply/demand of the labor. It definitely takes some getting used to, when you're used to a salaried position.

Re:Before outsourcing, "hardship" visas

[SoSueMe]

I have to congratulate you.
You are the first person I have seen to get the punctuation correct in the "I, for one,..." sentence prefix.
Thank you.

Re:Before outsourcing, "hardship" visas

[vthome]

Well, alot of companies seem to have gotten no hangover as a result of discarding their "currently invested capital and starting from scratch" when they moved from U.S. to Indian based IT talent.

The difference that you are forgetting about is that we're just coming to an end of the first wave of outsourcing. Let me rehash briefly things that I have *not* seen (and I was watching all this outsourcing hoopla unroll, having been very close to the heart of things):

• concerns about quality (they were overridden by cost savings concerns);
• concerns about intellectual property theft (anybody remembers Ishoni Networks? Thought so...);
• (related) concerns about inability to bring the unscrupulous partners to justice - hell, they can't do that even if the company is in the US! (ask me how I know...)
• concerns about cultural differences - they're different for different nationalities, but they all have their impact. Nobody paid attention to this back then, because the decisions were being made by people on the top who may have never as much as spoken with an alien;
• concerns about xenophobia - foreigners in US had to live with the fact they were ridiculed, 'cause they came here by their own volition. However, not so if they are offended in their native countries, and some of the cultures are very particular about having their grudge revenged (Roger Zelazny: "revenge is a dish that is best served cold");

This is just for starters...

As long as the labor cost difference is sufficient to counter the "exit cost" of throwing away current capital and yield a net increase ROI, there will be no hangover.

I don't think you'd find too many companies that would advertise the screwups. Like I was saying, the cost to exit for some may have been so high that the only case when it comes out will be when the company goes down or the results are otherwise publicly visible (as in: Dell, HP call center stories, or that infamous case with a threat to publish confidential information). Therefore, they will pretend that everything is just fine until the very last moment, by which time it is way too late.

From the tone of your post, I infer that you are looking forward to a day of reckoning for these companies that outsource U.S. jobs. My advice: don't hold your breath.

Now, that would be foolish... I'll turn blue and die before that happens. As someone put it, "market can stay insane longer than a person can stay solvent".

Re:Before outsourcing, "hardship" visas

[donutello]

Speaking as someone who has been on an H1-B visa, you know what you're getting into. You know that there is a maximum period of 7 years on the H1-B visa and you better get a green card before that time runs out or you have to leave the country. Also, you know that if you do lose your job you have to find another one within 30 days or you have to leave the country.

I didn't consider myself exploited because I knew what I was getting into. I don't think any rationally minded person can resent US companies or the US government for the H1-B person. Most countries would make it impossible for you to live in that country. In 100% of the cases the person with the H1-B visa accepted that job because it was better than every other opportunity available to them at every other company and in every other country of the world.

Of course, my thoughts might have been different had I been one of the people who got the short end of the stick.

Re:Before outsourcing, "hardship" visas

[AnonymousNoMore]

I think that your timeline is off. The first wave of outsourcing is well past for the leading companies and early adopters. And this common wisdom that offshore developers could not possibly provide a quality product is just absurd.

I have first hand experience with offshore development. That was 5 years ago and the teams I used in India were very capable. They developed components for our main project. Not everything went smoothly, but alot of that was because we had to invent the management style neccessary to make it work. We did protect our IP, we did accomodate for the cultural differences (differences across pacific and atlantic oceans). We didn't save money, but we did break even and that was quite a success for our first attempts at a globally distributed development organization. The most difficult issue was, as you mentioned, xenophobia. The biggest problems were caused by onshore developers who were not superstars within the organization yet felt entitled simply because they had a master's degree.

You may not recall that in the sixties most people in the U.S. laughed at the Japaneese and their crappy little "rice burners". Well within 20 years the Japaneese were delivering products that completely blew away the unmitigated crap manufactured by the union labor shops of Detriot. Anyone who thinks that India isn't on the same arc towards mastery of IT is going to get blindsided. Programming is a commodity job already - it has been for at least 8 years. Design will follow as the sophistication of the offshore developers grows.

Sure there are many obscure failures that may not show up explicitly in the prospectus. But there are 10 times more obscure successes. If offshoring was a total failure, jobs would not be leaving. OK, so call centers may be a poor choice to send offshore. But that is the why I believe that we are well into the second wave of outsourcing. The more conservative companies are trying things and everyone else is learning from their failures and successes. Offshore development may not bbe perfect, but it is mainstream.

Re:Before outsourcing, "hardship" visas

[jp10558]

But as in another comment on this story - this is an inditement of HP support - possibly tech support in general from big companies - than where the support is provided. I can't speak from tech support myself, but I did work in a call center, and often even though we could help the customer we were not allowed too - even ordered to provide obviously bullshit or unitelligable responses to some questions. I believe this is the case with tech support call centers also - see http://www.techcomedy.com someday to read from many callcenter techs the crap they have to do to keep their jobs.

This all is a management issue with callcenters, and maybe a training issue, but has nothing to do with where the call center is.

Re:Before outsourcing, "hardship" visas

[timjdot]

yes a fortune 500 contract company did this on me. day I arrived in a new state and day before contact started. what to do? And I am a US citizen. So, those naysayers are rather nayknowers - I'm sure the H1'ers take it all the time. This is the state of the market today. Unethical business practices. Sorta reminds me of "Les Miserables". Point is, when the money gets low the morals do too. By rapidly allowing the dollar to tumble the US government is able to continue to overspend while making those of us who worked and saved fight to get returns on our money just to keep up with dollar deflation. Pay rates will continue to tumble as companies try to adjust to an environment where earnings are not growing in magnitude (though relative to dollar's fall the earnings will not be too bad).

Re:Before outsourcing, "hardship" visas

[timjdot]

Bharath,

Currently, the only positive side to this system I can see is stock ownership. By allowing all people to participate in company ownership then they share in the wealth. As people historically humankind has sought a ruler and this probably was necessary to build cooperation and organization; yet, now we are at a very interesting crossroad because organization can exist using software to help organize people. This has to be scary to both governments and companies as they exist by taking a portion in exchange for organizing people.
My answer is that the $62,000 (or maybe 64k question) is in a new way of doing business. For example, in the USA a group of people called the Amish still live from their labors and, thus, avoid taxes (well over 50% for regular folks). So, they effectivly double their salaries. This is also a big trend in construction, agriculture, and such where illegal aliens (from Mexico for example) are paid in cash and never pay taxes. But rich people have various loopholes so they do not pay taxes either. I feel the taxes should be evenly levied.
In a few years I hope we will see more direct manufacturer-to-consumer systems based on software. This will eliminate alot of middle-man needs. This, I think, is where the profits are driven to the producer and consumer and dry up for anyone not actually adding value.
For instance, you cannot imagine people buying their groceries through a web page because computers and fast networks are still beyond the wealth of the average person (even in America); but several businesses have been bron and failed trying to realize this vision before its time.
Before its time technically and socially. If we figure out when to hit this ball though then we will knock it out of the park.

Tim

P.S> I think good tools make me at least 10 times more productive. Experience makes me around four times productive. Heck, if only my employer paid based on value! Then I'd owe them money for being on /. !;-)

Can I have my old dot-com job back?

[Anonymous Coward]

And is this for here or to go?

Here's a question for them

[bckrispi]

Ask them how they like my job.

Re:Here's a question for them

[TedCheshireAcad]

I second that. But also ask how they're dealing with my boss - he was a real asshole.

$$$ in developers pockets...

[Ummagumma]

Out of the $25 it costs my company to hire an India-based developer, how much does that developer see, and how much goes to the contracting agency (Wipro, etc...)?

Re:$$$ in developers pockets...

[strictnein]

Out of the $25 it costs my company to hire an India-based developer

Shouldn't this be $25,000?

Otherwise, who cares about $25?

Re:$$$ in developers pockets...

[psycho_tinman]

I might be able to answer that in real terms for outsourcing projects (instead of just relocating the jobs)

During the dotcom and shortly after, the going rate for Java developers was around $100-$120 per hour (Northern California). To undercut the competitors and local contractors, an Asian software company bid on (and received a contract) to supply Java programmers.

The billing was at $80 per hour. Out of that, the programmers on site received the following:
a. $40-$50 per diem fees (yes, that's right.. per DAY)
b. free fuel
c. a rented car
d. rented housing, situated reasonably close to their office

Each of the outsourced contracts typically ran for 8-12 months. Obviously, the programmers were also flown in and back home by the parent company. Now, you figure the margins :)

Disclaimer: this is just one case.. so YMMV

Re:$$$ in developers pockets...

[Ummagumma]

Should have previewed :)

To clarify, I meant $25/hour

Re:$$$ in developers pockets...

[Anonymous Coward]

Usually, 4 or more people are housed together in 1 apartment.

Re:$$$ in developers pockets...

[plopez]

In the US rocky mountain region we bill $65 to $75 and hour for programmer time

Re:$$$ in developers pockets...

[ShawnDoc]

According to Wired, the average Indian programmer makes $8,000 USD a year.

So to answer your question, not much.

Average experience?

[El]

How much experience do most Indian programmers have? It seems to me that in ramping up from a few hundred to thosands of programmers over the past few years, most of these people must be fresh out of school... how much training do people need before they start producing reliable results?

Re:Average experience?

[dodobh]

From what I know of the people in Bangalore, there is a whole bunch of kids just out of school, and a lot more prefessionals who have over 5 years of experience in programming, with a lot of US returned professionals.

Quality of life

[Scott Lockwood]

American workers have certain legal protections that drive up the cost of our wages. Do Indians have similar protections in the workplace? Are you allowed to organize into unions? How long is your work week? What are your working conditions like? What kind of benifits do you have? Vacation? Medical? Dental? Profit sharing? Stock options? I find myself wondering, if the playing field were truly level, would your labor still be so inexpensive?

Re:Quality of life

[CrazyTalk]

Is this a flame? Programmers cant form unions in the U.S., at least in practical terms. We'd just be fired and replaced. The US work week is usually well in excess of 40 hours, with no overtime. We get a paltry 2 weeks vacation a year, which oftentimes we are discourage/prevented from taking. Insurance costs are skyrocketing, including copays and out of pocket expenses. Profit sharing and stock options are from the last century.

Re:Quality of life

[Anonymous Coward]

American workers have certain legal protections that drive up the cost of our wages. Do Indians have similar protections in the workplace?


No.

Are you allowed to organize into unions?


There are no unions for engineers/programmers. The companies have two "unions" - NASSCOM for software and MAIT for hardware.

Legally, nothing stops anyone from organizing a union, but on the few attempts made by some engineers, the HR guys across several companies - including US owned operations - shared info and blacklisted those engineers. (Basically HR people are the same kind of scum the world over. Refer to Catbert for details.)


How long is your work week?

Legally 40 hours. People may spend 50 to 60 hours if required. Usually it is, thanks to the stupid conference calls that US managers love.


What are your working conditions like?

Standard dilbert cubicle.


What kind of benifits do you have? Vacation? Medical? Dental? Profit sharing? Stock options? I find myself wondering, if the playing field were truly level, would your labor still be so inexpensive?

Vacation = usually 25 days a year. This may be called "earned leave" or "privileged leave" and is encashable for money if not consumed.

Official holidays (legally *required*) = 10 days a year. These can not be encashed.

Medical = Rs 15000/- a year for misc medical expenses.

Medical insurance coverage is required.

Profit sharing = optional. Wipro gives it. Can't say about any others.

Stock options = optional. I know some people who are millionaires. Yes, in US dollars. I've not made a penny. Yet.

Hope this helps.

Re:Quality of life

[Anonymous Coward]

Only in the U.S. would "medical" and "dental" [insurance] be considered benefits. In every other country I'm familiar with in the world, medical services are either universal, or non-existant; in such countries, the idea of an employer subsidising medical insurance seems as ludicrous as an employer subsidising your public library membership.

Re:Quality of life

[Anonymous Coward]

I work for a large Multinational Tech Co.

Do Indians have similar protections in the workplace? -- Yes. The rules are the same.

Are you allowed to organize into unions? -- Unions are definitely allowed by law. But as in the U.S there are no Unions of Software Professional. BTW, India is probably the only place in the world where there is a democratically elected communist state govt. In fact, the labor laws are stricter here. Its nearly impossible to fire Blue Collared Workers or Declare Bankruptcy.

How long is your work week? -- I put in the usual 40 hrs a week over 5 days.

What are your working conditions like? -- The food in the cafeteria is better here than what I had when I was in U.S :-)

What kind of benifits do you have? Vacation? Medical? Dental? Profit sharing? Stock options? -- Folks in India probably get more vacation than in the U.S. As per Indian Law there has to be atleast 14 days of earned leave and 7 days of sick leave. This is excluding the 3 national holidays (Republic Day, Independence Day, Gandhi Jayanti); 3 Hindu Holidays, 2 Muslim Holidays and 2 Christian Holidays, Plus 1 State holiday; Unless they fall on the weekend. As far as Medical goes, Govt of India Rules specify that a group Medical Insurance Policy be taken out by the Co. Usually this works out to a coverage of about $10000 for about $40 a month. Profit Sharing, Stock Options and Employee Stock Purchase Plans all exist. In fact one of the biggest stories used to be the Infosys Stock Plan. Also, the Govt Specifies that 12% of your Salary be paid by the Company towards Pension each month. This earns about 9.5% interest.

I find myself wondering, if the playing field were truly level, would your labor still be so inexpensive? -- Thats because cost of living is far cheaper here. Food - about $50 a month, Rent about $175 a month, Entertainment, Eating out etc.. about $100 a month. So in all about$350 a month is more than enough. Whatever remaining usually goes into buying a car or a house.

Re:Quality of life

[be-fan]

What legal protections? White collar workers generally do not get the kind of protections blue collar workers do. Salaried workers, for example, who work tens of hours of overtime per week without seeing an extra cent.

Also note that American white collar workers have the longest work weeks and shortest vacations of pretty much any country in the world.

As for medical and dental benefits, those are factored into the compensation, and are not a hidden cost.

Re:Quality of life

[Scott Lockwood]

I don't believe that we are.

I assert that, the way this is being done currently will only lower the standard of living in America, and won't do much to change it where you are either. You'll have a little more money, but no real changes in your quality of life from day to day.

When they oursource our jobs (I work in a call center) they should also have to ensure that the job oursourcing goes with all the same conditions it would have here, I.E. being done to the same standards - for the employees as well as the employers. If they did this, we'd eventually reach some sort of equilibrium point, and it wouldn't matter where the job was, costs woould (and should) be equal.

Only a vast disperity between economic conditions allows this current situation to be as it is. Should we allow companies to profit at the expense of workers, or should the workers be compensated fairly for their work?

Re:Quality of life

[C10H14N2]

Yes, but you are guaranteed many things like family and medical leave, workplace health and safety standards, freedom from discrimination for a laundry list of protected classes (race, sex, age, sexual orientation in many cases etc.), a minimum wage, at companies of a certain size (which isn't very big, like 250+ employees) you must be offered health insurance at group rates, unemployment insurance, social security etc. I completely agree with your assessment of how hostile things have become, but what still remains is a huge percentage of the cost of American labor.

Re:Quality of life

[Coward the Anonymous]

Vacation = usually 25 days a year. This may be called "earned leave" or "privileged leave" and is encashable for money if not consumed.

Official holidays (legally *required*) = 10 days a year. These can not be encashed.

Medical insurance coverage is required.

So what you're saying is, benefits are better in India than they are in the U.S.

Plenty of Jobs, good benefits, I think I'm moving to India.

Re:Quality of life

[Anonymous Coward]

I have just abandoned my Engineering job in US, and returned to Canada.

What you said couldn't be more true. People in the US are screaming about worker right and such, but where I was working, there as this thing called "Freedom to Work Law" which states something to the effect that if you want to quit you got the legal right to do so, and if your boss want to let you go, he can do so at the moment notice - so much for job protection.

The result of such law and working environment? Well, when my boss' in his office, everyone pretends to work hard; when he is off, no one work, Period!

Oh, Med insurance, co pay, and deduction are entirely different matter. Talk about the US education system with its "Left no Child Behind" initiative - what a joke.

By the time all these things figured out, my pay checks was much smaller than what I would make here in Canada, where I have to work for a grand total of 37.5 hours per week.

Did I say my US employer only expects me to work a minimum of 45 hours per weeek?

Yup the previous poster was just trolling.

Bye America.

Re:Quality of life

[Tablizer]

[How long is your work week?] Legally 40 hours. People may spend 50 to 60 hours if required. Usually it is, thanks to the stupid conference calls that US managers love.

My secret Blab-A-Tron anti-offshoring weapon is working! Muuaaaah ha ha ha!

Re:Quality of life

[cayenne8]

Over 40 hours/week and no OT?? Man, I think you seriously need to look for a new job...

My first rule of thumb is..."I do not work for free". I work, I work hard, and do what it takes to get the job done, but, I do not work for free.

Look into contracting, friend...at least get paid for the work you do. I'm a contract employee...kind of in both worlds. I get 4 weeks a year vacation/sick time...10 holidays..until last 2 years..didn't have to pay anything towards my benefits..now, I pay $8/paycheck for full coverage (med, dental, eye).

Good jobs are out there, but, you gotta be flexible...and go to where they are...

Re:Quality of life

[pantycrickets]

Is this a flame? Programmers cant form unions in the U.S., at least in practical terms. We'd just be fired and replaced. The US work week is usually well in excess of 40 hours, with no overtime. We get a paltry 2 weeks vacation a year, which oftentimes we are discourage/prevented from taking. Insurance costs are skyrocketing, including copays and out of pocket expenses. Profit sharing and stock options are from the last century.

I have seen 2 different studies that confirm what you are saying. One said that on average we work actually longer work weeks than most industrialized nations, and get less vacation time than basically everyone. I am not sure I agree with what you say about unionizing though. I do believe it could be done, just that no one has tried.

Re:Quality of life

[plugger]

Could you just join an existing union without telling your employer? Then, if you were unfairly fired, injured at work or otherwise in conflict with your employer, the union would be there to provide legal representation.

Re:Quality of life

[finalspirit]

The answer to your question is there in your post: Only a vast disparity between economic conditions allows this current situation to exist. However, this disparity is not in work environment. I had the same work hours and PTO, and significantly better health benefits in India. There may be exceptions but the atmosphere in leading companies is comparable. For costs to be comparable, the standard of living of the population AS A WHOLE must be comparable. This can only happen if: 1. More work goes to the 3rd world, raising salaries. 2. Salaries are driven down in the US. I don't see why you blame the companies for profiteering. They are using the chasm in standards of living, that you probably used to your benefit at some point, to their benefit. In an increasingly integrated world can you really expect to maintain this hugely superior standard of living? The only way to prevent outsourcing is to close that gap, or create protectionist laws.

Re:Quality of life

[joshmccormack]

Well put. Being a programmer requires a gamblers heart.
You're fighting the clock to stay relevant and productive.
There's always the threat that there will be a way to replace you with an entry level employee, H1-B visa holder or offshore workers.
You have to avoid overcommiting, but not seem difficult.
And long hours, weekend work and being willing to dispose of your vacation time are the sign of committment.
Compensation stays stagnant, insurance costs rise, other costs rise as well.

Re:Quality of life

[jedidiah]

No, American workers have an entirely different economic reality. An $8K salary wouldn't even cover the cost of sending an American programmer through school. It has nothing to do with protective US labor laws. The cost of living is simply higher here.

Re:Quality of life

[kellman]

What are your working conditions like? -- The food in the cafeteria is better here than what I had when I was in U.S :-)

Well duh! I prefer Indian food to cafeteria food any day!

Re:Quality of life

[kaffiene]

"Going to war without France is like going deer hunting without your accordion. - Jed Babbin"

Well France were right - no WMD. Your glorious leader lied to the world.

Celebrate your deceipt if that seems worthwhile to you.

Re:Quality of life

[Anonymous Coward]

I am an Indian who worked in New Delhi after doing my post-graduation in 1989. I worked till 1995 when I moved to USA and then to Canada in 1998.

When I worked there, the working conditions were quite stressful. I worked in companies doing software development for domestic market. Outsourcing had not yet taken off, it was starting taxing to the runway.

Someone else has said cubicles are now standard fare. In my time, there weren't any. There were tables allotted to programmers in a large room or hall. (I am thinking of companies like Mastek Ltd. and Newgen Software Technologies, two of the companies where I worked).

I don't know of any such thing as a 40 hour work week. We were expected to work Mon to Saturday. In many places 2nd Saturdays were half-days. This meant that at instead of leaving at 9pm you generally left at 4pm.

People were expected to give their 110% or more. Nobody, but nobody, I knew ever left at 5pm. Any programmer who ever left at 5pm was laughed at "Hey this is not government office."

Several times one had to stay till late at night. This was the norm in many companies. When DCM Data Products introduced their 486-based minicomputer, their programmers stayed till 4 o'clock in the morning making their Unix offering work on it. It was released without a hitch that morning.

Many times one was expected to come on Sundays also. It was a given that you would come. There were no thanks ever given after you worked on a Sunday. I once took a vacation of 5 days after a long time and my manager was very reluctant to give it.

Added to that was the stress of driving, of unreliable power situation, and of a host of other things that routinely plague an under-developed nation. For example, in those days, one had to take half a day leave just to submit your electricity bills, because that's how long it took. Fortunately, most people had servants to do it for them or gave the local electric supply store some money to submit it for you.

In Delhi, the temperature reaches 46 degrees celsius (115 F) in summers. I remember one time it was like that. Although the room I was working in was air-conditioned (the rest of the office wasn't, they had a cooler - a device that sends out air cooled by evaporation - is ineffective when in humidity which envelopes Delhi after May), my butt got sweaty after only half-an-hour or so.

I now live in Canada. Sometimes I have to suffer temperatures of -40 celsius(-40 F), but it's far better than +46 celsius.

There's a bookstore in Connaught Place in New Delhi, called BPB Publications from where I chiefly got my computer books. They used to, and still do, sell Eastern edition books at a fraction of the price for which they are sold in US and Canada. Whenever I visit India, I buy a few books from there. This situation is expected to change soon.

Freeware wasn't known then. We used to get pirated software from a shop called SKW in Greater Kailash. Initially they operated quite openly. After they were raided a few times, they became more discrete. I don't know what are they doing now. But it is through them that I got Turbo Pascal, Turbo C and C++, Turbo Assembler, MSC, PC Tools, Norton Utilities, Windows 3.0 and 3.1, Visual Basic, etc. and learned the ropes.

Re:Quality of life

[pommiekiwifruit]

Added to that was the stress of driving, of unreliable power situation, and of a host of other things that routinely plague an under-developed nation.

Was that when you were working in India, or when you were working in California?

Re:Quality of life

[mirio]

Here in Georgia we also have "Right to work" laws. I have no problem with them.

When are people going to understand that they are not entitled to a job? If there is a need for a person and that person can do the work, that person gets a job. If there is no longer a need for a position in a company, that person gets laid off. What's so hard to understand here?

A job isn't a right. The pursuit of a job is a right!

Look at it this way. If you own a company and you could use some extra help, are you going to hire somone if you know you're going to get hassled by some big brother government telling you that you're not allowed to lay off that person you just gave work to? Think about it, folks. It seems to me like this behavior encourages an absolute minimum staffing of a company (i.e. less jobs!).

The government isn't the answer to all your problems, folks. You're the answer.

Re:Quality of life

[cpeterso]

"Right To Work" laws are anti-union. They allow an individual to work without a union REQUIRING him to join the union and pay union dues.

Re:Quality of life

[composer777]

I agree, the government isn't the answer, we are the answer. And, yes, according to you, we're supposed to understand that only Kings and those that live like kings have any rights, and that everyone else is supposed to conveniently starve and die if they can't find a job. The reason I'm supposed to starve and die is because somone else told me to, and I need to subserviently accept the rules of the system as they are presented. Nevermind that they don't work in my favor, I need to show proper subordination to my masters.

I agree that government doesn't solve problems, you will never convince a blueblood aristocrat politician to help you. However, a million people standing in one spot, now that says something. There is a reason why the politicians in Europe are so much more liberal than they are in the US, and it's not because they are "weak". It's because the will of the working class is much stronger than it is over here. There is a very strong anti-aristocratic sentiment over there. The reason, is because they've had masters for centuries, they were called kings, and they know what games the powerful play to keep their power. France, one of the most liberal countries in the EU, had the most bloody revolution, and is known for inventing the guillotine. So, do you want to know why France is so liberal? It's not because the politicians care, it's due to the fact that when they see a million Frenchmen lined up in the capital, they say to themselves,"Oh shit! They aren't going to get out the guillotine again are they?" This is something that the rich and powerful understand, which is why organized (non-violent) protest works. It works because if enough people stand together on an issue, even the most powerful men in the world will back down. If you see a million men standing outside your house, even in a peaceful protest, it says something without saying a word at all. It says,"We're not going to take it anymore." The thing to remember, is that we do have the power to change the rules. If the rules of the current system result in slavery, or injustice, or are unfair, we have a right to do something about it.

We don't like the rules, and so we should change them. That's all we're saying. And, we're in the majority, not you.

Re:Quality of life

[FuzzyYellowTom]

I agree with your synopsis. In an integrated market, most things will settle to the lowest common denominator (I realize this is vastly oversimplified, but I'm mainly refering to standards of living and general income levels). The rub comes of the fact that the countries (and I am not just saying the USA) that bore the cost of research for raising the bar on what passes for a 'decent' standard of living, are now being expected to quietly let their jobs flee, and their income levels drop to a 'leveled' point as the 3rd world nations (what a con that word is) slowly raise their standards and levels of income up to meet it. This is all the function of a free market:creating a level competitive playing field.
What a crock!
The only ones to benefit in the end are the big corporations that act the part of the 'free market' and go profiteering around the world, exploiting nation after nation just to fill their coffers. I feel sorry for everyone on both sides of the ocean. It's not right.

Re:Quality of life

[slimy_dude]

You can't get fired for trying to form a union. If you do, you have a right to sue.

Re:Quality of life

[ahdeoz]

what the hell are you talking about? We invented revolutions here (same place you are, America), The guillotine was invented to prove that there are *worse* things than kings. There has never been a million Frenchmen lined up in one place, although if there were, it would become a riot. In America we (that's you and me) invented a way so that a million people can have their voices heard without rioting. It's worked so well, that we've had the longest running continuous government in history. Sure, it's getting thin now, but that's a result of the people's will, not an aristocrasy. We (you and I) get what we deserve, and blaming aristocrats or idolizing frogs (that's Canadian for French) doesn't change that.

Re:Quality of life

[ahdeoz]

"universal" and "nonexistant" are not mutually exclusive in many countries.

Re:Quality of life

[SgtSnorkel]

You can't get fired for trying to form a union

No, they find some other reason to fire you

Re:Quality of life

[cptgrudge]

I work more than 40 hours a week as well, with no OT. I guess I just love my job that much.

Actually, part of why I do it right now is that my employer (a public school district) is going through budget cuts. I know I'm not irreplaceable, but I'll work hard to make sure I'm seen as a "vital member of the team".

Re:Quality of life

[donutello]

Are you allowed to organize into unions?

Yes - at least to the same extent as a US worker with a similar job can - India is actually coming out of a socialist phase.

How long is your work week?

Typically 5 days

What are your working conditions like?

Not quite as nice as in the US but very nice relative to other situations in India. The offices of Indian tech firms won't usually look as fancy as the average US tech firm but that's more a function of the culture of economizing that prevails in most 3rd world countries.

What kind of benifits do you have? Vacation? Medical? Dental? Profit sharing? Stock options?

Vacation is usually more than the paltry 3 weeks/year most US workers get. Also, there are many more public holidays. Medical and dental costs are so low in India that it is really not a factor. You could get treated at some of the best facilities in the country for a 10th of what it would cost in the US. Profit sharing and stock options depend on who you are in the company - pretty much the same as in the US.

I find myself wondering, if the playing field were truly level, would your labor still be so inexpensive?

You can stop wondering. The answer is yes. The reason the labor is cheap is that the cost of living is cheaper in those countries. Sure, you can't afford a fancy automatic dishwasher but you can afford to pay someone to wash your dishes for you. Food costs a fraction of what it does in the US, etc. You pay for this by your basic facilities not being up to the same levels. Pollution levels are insanely high, roads are terribly overcrowded, electricity and water are not guaranteed, etc.

Re:Quality of life

[vikman]

Been away too long. When did the work week become 5 days from six?

Re:Quality of life

[Argon]

Answers from an Indian software developer in Bangalore. My first job was with an Indian company as a programmer. It was a "typical" Indian company in "software services". Most of our "clients" were in the US but the business unit I was in was developing software for Indian scientific and defense establishments. Since then I have worked for subsidiaries of US companies for most of my (8 year) career because I prefer to work on "products" than "projects". I don't know whether you consider that "outsourcing". For me, it's just a well paying job for something I love to do.

About your questions, no, you can't form an union if your wage is above a certain level (the level is fairly low). Obviously there are labor laws in India too, some or fairly strict; for example it's not that easy to lay off employees in India :-).
Work week is the standard 5 days, 40 hours but like in the US, hours don't count and you work your ass off some times (before a release for e.g.) and get to goof off some times. Working conditions is also pretty much like in the US - air conditioned, cubicle hell :-). Benefits are comparable, vacation, medical, dental, profit sharing (I guess you mean bonuses), stock options all yes.

For a developer with my experience (Post Graduate with 8 years), I am probably being paid one fourth of what I could reasonably get if I was working in the US. My stock options are also probably about one fourth of what I might have got if I was in USA, same case for bonuses. However, this is a pretty nice salary in India, I probably earn five to ten times what I would earn in Government Service for example.

So, no it's not a level playing field. Cost of living is simply cheaper in India. Many of my friends are in the US on H1-B visas and earning four times my salary. For most programmer's in India, that's the dream. To be honest, I some times wonder if I made the right decision to stay back in India.

I never thought of outsourcing as an issue before. When everything was booming, US wanted more and more workers and nobody had a reason to complain. Now with the slowdown, cost cutting etc I guess, I can understand the concerns of an American about outsouring but frankly I think it's a fact of life. It's worrying Americans today and it'll probably worry Indians tomorrow.

But for today, hiring has picked up a lot in India, more companies are setting up shop here, fresh graduates are getting job offers easier - a sea change from one year back. Yes, times are good in India, but I wonder for how long.

Re:Quality of life

[mirio]

And, yes, according to you, we're supposed to understand that only Kings and those that live like kings have any rights,

What? Sounds like you have a problem with authority more than anything else. You as an employee of a company have rights. You have the right to pick up your things and walk out the front door if you do not like your job. You have the right to start your own company (probably like one of your bosses did one day). Of course, this is all assuming that YOU as an INDIVIDUAL did not make some stupid decision like having three kids by the time you're 20 years old, etc.

I saw a study once that stated that 90% of people making one million dollars per year or more came from middle class families. In other words, they didn't inherit it. They made it.

Almost anyone can do it. All it takes is willpower and smart decisions (like not having kids until you're financially stable, etc). Look, I know what I'm talking about. I was born dirt poor and now I'm in the top 2% of income earners in the US. I was the first person in my family to attend and graduate from college. I left my home at 18 with $200.00 in my pocket and some applications for student loans. Don't tell me you can't make it in this country! And don't tell me I'm lucky or that my circumstances are unique. (Understandably, living in a place like Africa, etc. is an entirely different story. I'm talking about industrialized nations).

If you're wondering, the answer is: Yes, I work for someone. I do not own a company. I am not "The Man". My boss gets on my nerves the way all bosses seem to do.

We just had three people *quit* their Software Engineering positions in our company because they wanted a change. They didn't like their jobs. They started their own company. That's all I'm saying...find new jobs if you don't like your existing one. There's a sea of potential income out there.

I love the idea that everyone is a victim of the "Man" and no one is reponsible for their own situation created by their own actions.

Oh yeah, a million people standing in one spot. Sometimes that's called a mob. You know, those folks who toss bricks through windows to take things that don't belong to them. I wonder why that's not considered democracy?

Re:Quality of life

[cayenne8]

Nope...I'm a contract employee. Those 4 weeks are paid...and holidays are paid.

Re:Quality of life

[composer777]

Well, I'm in the top 10%, not doing quite as well as you, but good enough for the time being, and my family definitely was not rich.

What I'm talking about isn't so much for me. I'll do fine. However, just becasue people like you and I do fine isn't saying much. Intelligent, resourceful people can do well just about anywhere, China, Cuba, and Iraq, would all love to have guys like us (well, ok, I would be a big enough pain in the ass that I would get shot, but other than that, I could probably live a good life as long as I stayed out of politics.). But, this is beside the point. Intelligent people can have the good life just about anywhere. The measure of a country isn't how it treats it's best and brightest, but how it treats it's poor an disadvantaged. Telling everyone to pull themselves up by their bootstraps is similar to tell them to eat cake. All the poor people in the US suddenly can't start going to Harvard, there's not enough room. They probably can't get in at the other schools either, again, not enough room. What about that million dollar job at the big corporation, again, there's room for only one or two of those, the rest will have to clean toilets or take a ticket at the unemployment line (ok, that's an overstatement, but you get the point, SOMEONE has to do the crappy jobs). We can't all be rich, someone has to clean toilets, someone has to build the houses that the "successful" sleep in, grow their food, and build the cars that they drive. In a just society, we would be as concerned for their welfare, as those who are "successful". That is, if we hope to be better than Communist China. I'm not saying China is good, my point is that we've sunk pretty low.

Re:Quality of life

[GlassHeart]

Here in Georgia we also have "Right to work" laws. I have no problem with them. When are people going to understand that they are not entitled to a job?

It's not entitlement that's the problem, but the lopsided nature of the law. It is common courtesy to give your boss two weeks' notice when you leave, especially if you would like to retain the individual as a future reference. However, I have witnessed a co-worker who found a new job, arranged to start in two weeks, and turned in a notice but was asked to leave immediately. Courtesy, in this case, turned into two weeks of unemployment.

That makes it a bad law. Companies can ask you to leave at any time with no prior warning, and it's just good business. If you suddenly announce today is your last day, somehow you're burning bridges. Legal, but rude. I'd personally prefer to be required by law to give a two week notice whether you are being laid off or you resign.

Re:Quality of life

[mirio]

I agree entirely that this is something companies should not do. I also agree that it is rude when companies use SWAT team members to escort fired employees from the office (this happend at my place of work).

I sometimes think that 2 week notice thing is a little overemphasized. The HR departments of most companies (Lucent, for example) have changed their policies of referals of former employees to simply be able to confirm or deny that said employee worked at the company for so long.

Re:Quality of life

[bobthemuse]

Medical = Rs 15000/- a year for misc medical expenses.

This is only 300-400 USD. Hell, I go in for a checkup and my blood test cost this much. Are medical expenses that much cheaper in India, or is the coverage a joke?

Re:Quality of life

[polanyi]

Here's a question for libertarians supporting "right to work" laws: These laws, I guess, are supposed to protect freedom of contract. And yet a union contract requiring new workers to join the union -- put in effect at time t' -- results from contractual negotiation between the union (chosen representative of the set of workers at time t) and the company. Why is there not a contradiction here?

Two Q

[savagedome]

The most important question I would like to ask is "Is the picture there as rosy as painted by the media?"

From what I keep hearing, the scenario there right now is being compared to the tech boom here (in US) in the 90s. Is it true that "If you have a degree, immaterial of what degree, you can get a tech job."

Re:Two Q

[dodobh]

No. Those days were over two years ago. Now you need a degree, preferably in CS or Electronics, and some experience. Jobs are not easy to get.

Re:Two Q

[flyingace]

The most important question I would like to ask is "Is the picture there as rosy as painted by the media?"


Indians with their teaming population still have to strive to get into a job. There are lots of layoffs as the markets fluctuates here in US. Bottom line is, there are more jobs now than there were. But they are not easy to get.

From my own personal experience, interviews in India have always been tougher.

If you have a degree, immaterial of what degree, you can get a tech job."

Absolutely false.
Oh wait, if one has a good passing knowledge of English and can be trained to speak 'American', one can do midnight( indian time ) tech support for companies like toysrus, amex..etc.

Re:Two Q

[d2k297]

No, the picture isn't that rosy for fresh graduates. I graduated last year and most of my classmates are still without software engineering jobs. The picture OTOH is rosy for call-centre/tech-support jobs. If you can speak English you are hired into the Eastern Standard Tribe. The Eastern Standard Tribe works at night(India time) to be in sync with your EST. The hiring scene for call centres is so rosy that now domestic call centres employ Hindi speaking operators for credit-card enquiries and related stuff.

11K/year

[Anonymous Coward]

How do you feel about competing on what I see as a non-competitive playing field? $11,000 per year is a good salary in India, but wouldn't allow me to live above poverty in any U.S city.

Re:11K/year

[Lemmy Caution]

11K a year is about minimum wage, BTW. So the people in most US cities who are making your lattes, flipping your burgers, and bagging your groceries are expected to live off of that.

(Ultimately, it should be hoped that living costs will come down in those US cities, but the monkey wrench in the works is housing: people are not willing to sell their homes for less than they paid for it, and with low interest rates on financing, they haven't felt a reason to yet.)

Re:11K/year

[cubicledrone]

Ultimately, it should be hoped that living costs will come down in those US cities It will never be possible to live on $11K a year. Never.

Re:11K/year

[Timmmm]

It will never be possible to live on $11K a year. Never.

Sure it is, you're just used to a high standard of living...

Re:11K/year

[cubicledrone]

Sure it is, you're just used to a high standard of living...

Like food, a roof, shoes...

$11k is and will remain a poverty wage.

Re:11K/year

[Coward the Anonymous]

So the people in most US cities who are making your lattes, flipping your burgers, and bagging your groceries are expected to live off of that.

And there is a reason they're mostly all teenagers too. They live at home with their parents because most are still in highschool. They don't have "bills." They don't have to live off of that. They get a job to have extra spending money to buy the new Justin Timberlake or Outkast CD.

Re:11K/year

[cayenne8]

I guess I don't think of minimum wage, burger flipping jobs as ones that grown adults would depend on to make a living...much less support a family. These are jobs for teens and college students to supplement their lives while in school and promote a sense of responsibility for keeping a job...

If you are a grown individual and you job involves you wearing a name tag and asking if 'you want fries with that?'....you made some serious errors in vocational choices in your life.

Re:11K/year

[gillbates]

11K a year is about minimum wage, BTW. So the people in most US cities who are making your lattes, flipping your burgers, and bagging your groceries are expected to live off of that.

First, they aren't expected to live off this. These jobs are expected to be filled by part time workers - house wives, students, etc - to provide them with a little extra income. But should a person with any shred of ambition decide to make a career in fast food, they can end up drawing a larger salary than someone who spends that same amount of time in college.

In 1998, I was asked if I wanted a job making 70k a year. At first I did - until I found out that it was managing a Taco Bell. The stigma of fast food management keeps a lot of qualified people out of the field, hence, someone able to do it successfully can make quite a bit of money.

One of the things which irks me still is that I bought the whole "college is the way to success" bs back in high school. I know people younger than me, without a degree, who make comparable wages simply because they found a niche position in the economy - they took the jobs that no one else wanted and stuck with them. Trust me, it's a lot easier to move up into management when the business has a high turnover rate. Some people I've known have been made managers by force of longevity - they are the only ones who have stayed long enough to learn the whole business.

Re:11K/year

[JLSigman]

It will never be possible to live on $11K a year. Never.
It is possible, altho most people here wouldn't consider it a living. Subsidized housing, food stamps, and cheap public transportation help make it possible. My best friend makes about 13K a year working second shift at a mill, and lives at home to defray expenses. You have to choose what you want.

Re:11K/year

[cubicledrone]

House? Car? Family? Insurance? Retirement? College Funds? Vacations?

Or rather, food, rent, no money left and "I'll get a real good job soon."

Re:11K/year

[dustinbarbour]

I think it's the World Health Organization who says one could stay alive on 1 USD/day. American poverty.. what a joke.

Re:11K/year

[lost_n_mad]

I have to weigh in on this one. I am a F&B employee. It is entirely possible to live on 11k/yr. (I actually earn a little closer to 13 to 15k/yr) I deal with people every day who earn in the 10 to 20k range, some even are raising children on these incomes. As far as Starbucks goes, forget the 11k figure. That is grossly inflated. A miniwage employee loses 1/3 of their income to taxes, social security, and medicare. Add in company insurance and other "benifits" and that goes to about 1/2. The goal in F&B is to earn more on less. We never get OT with management approval unless you agree to a "salary" in which case your looking at being at work from open to close every day the store is open, they call this "management training". Paid vacations are usually a sham, you might get it, you might not. Now if you go to another state (like NY or WA) they have higher miniwage for F&B, mostly so those workers can survive in the big cities, get outside that and they introduce tip share. Basically they pay the staff well below minimum, they split the tips from service to raise their wages to the federal minimum, not the state's minimum.
My point to all this is, you have no idea how bad it could be for you. Stop and look at everything in your home, or in your car that runs about $10-15, now eliminate all that and you get a very clear idea of how to live on less.

Re:11K/year

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm living on $12K a year as a PhD student on a bursary in the UK.

For a modern two bedroom flat, the rent is $675/month = $8100/year.
For a room in a Victorian flat/house with large bedrooms the rent is $450/room per month. = $5400/year.
(These are preferred by students/professionals as they have large bedrooms with enough space
for a bed+wardrobe+computer desk).

Council tax (half poll tax/half property tax) is $1500/year
(which students are exempt from paying, as long as no income earner is resident).
Electricity is $300/quarter. = $1200/year
TV License is $180/year.
Cable TV+Telephone is $60/month = $720/year
Broadband Internet (2 Mbit) is around $720/month ($150/year)
Membership of a Fitness centre would cost around $90/month or $1080/year,
although the university does have it's own fitness centre.
That doesn't take into account the purchase of a new computer/laptop plus required books/software.
(although you can blog these by winning various competitions).

Total cost: Own accomodation = $15120
Shared accomodation = 10305 (assuming all bills shared between four people).
Owning a car would cost another $4500/year. Alternatively, a bus pass would cost around $50/month or $630.

You can survive but not save for a mortgage or pension as the government wants everybody to.

Re:11K/year

[MoggyMania]

"It will never be possible to live on $11K a year. Never."

It is possible, just not pleasant. Anybody that is disabled and therefore reliant on SSI for income is expected to live on $9,480/year. Note that's in California, where we're given an extra $200 every month rather than food stamps.

Re:11K/year

[Bendebecker]

Do you own a house? Did you pay for your car yourself or did your parents buy it for you? Do you ever plan on raising a family? Who payed for your college education, entirely you or did your parents help? What about insurance? What if you get sick or hurt, do you have enough saved to survive while being unemployed?<br><br>
I don't know about you (the fact that you list the currrency as canadian is telling) but around here an apartment (forget the word decent) costs about $800 a month. That works out to be $9600 a year. That doens't include electric or water bills. Then their is car repair (or mass transit if you don't own one), doctors visits and dentists visits we'll classify under insurance, human need products (clothing, toilet paper, etc.). You'd be lucky to walk away with $1200. You woulld then be required to spend every cent of that on food ($100 a month won't get you far - you'll be eating a whole lot of ramen noodle soup.) Which leaves with with zero spending money if your lucky, most likely you'll end up in debt just trying to survive. And forget having a family.<br><br>
This of course is ignoring the phenomenon Dorthy Day first noted when examining why people who were poor couldn't seem to rise above the levels of abject poverty. The reason she soon discovered was that when you are poor you are not as well protected from getting ripped off as you are when your middle class. When you have no where to go, you are easy to take advantage of. They know you have to grin and bear it and so they take as many liberties as they can legally get away with. Example: apartments: your landlord knows that if he kicks you out you have no wehre to turn and will most likely end up on the street. That means that he can treat you in ways that would make any middle class person say to hell with this and move. So why don't they? Cause they have no where else to go. And if you don't like it they can easily get soemone else to pay for the apartment. Once your listed as a trouble tenant your rent will get even worse assuming you can even find a place at that levels. then their is the issue of job. If you live in the slums (which is where the cheap apartments are lcoated) do you really think a lot of places will be keen on hiring you or keeping you as an employee?<br>
Even if you look at the legitimate costs, you can't live on $11,000 a year. When you take on the hidden costs (example: paying $100 a month to rent shitty furniture most people would throw out, paying extra for the landlord to fix such basic things as the plumbing or electrics cause if the place is condemened you'll end up on the streets) things are impossible. High standard of living my ass.

Re:11K/year

[Shakrai]

They get a job to have extra spending money to buy the new Justin Timberlake or Outkast CD.

Naw, the spending money is for beer and hip new clothes. They can get Timberlake or Outkast from Kazaa. Or haven't you been listening to RIAA lately? ;)

Re:11K/year

[wwest4]

you must live in a place where 12,500 goes farther and/or you have someone sharing your expenses. not exactly and apples/oranges comparison.

Re:11K/year

[HungWeiLo]

Thinking back at my college years ( 1 yr ago), let's do a little accounting (keep in mind this is in high-priced real-estate Seattle):

$11,000 yr
assuming 15% tax bracket - about $8,500 after taxes

Rent: $400 / month (sharing with 1 roommate)
Transportation: $35 / month bus pass
Food: $60 / month (less if I cook every single day)

$8,500 / 12 months = about $700 / month

$700 monthly income
- $400 rent
- $ 35 bus pass
- $ 60 food
------------
$205 expendable income

Sure, it's not very fun. But hardly living in poverty.

Re:11K/year

[TomV]

It will never be possible to live on $11K a year. Never.

In 1928, a reasonable and credible statement.

In 1931, arrant nonsense.

You can *hope* it will never happen, but you can't be certain of it.

Re:11K/year

[lost_n_mad]

I re-read the post and it does sound sort of apologetic for the people running corporate restaurants. But working in this environment is very much like voting in a Presidental election. You have Dippy the Wonder Chimp, or Sluggy the Smiling Thug. Choice doesn't enter into it really other than apperance, thank God for the Pell Grant so I can get away from these kinds of choices.

Re:11K/year

[Lemmy Caution]

Who cleans your office? Do you think they are part-time employees working their way through college?

Re:11K/year

[Lemmy Caution]

And, if you're going to play the old "hard scrapple" line, then one could argue that any one naive enough to think the IT boom could last forever and clamoured into an overcrowded yet overpaid field that had every reason to be outsourced, made some "serious errors in vocational choice."

The truth is, in a way, that you don't think of minimum wage and unskilled labor types as "real people."

Re:11K/year

[Craig Davison]

Health care would be free because he's not making much a year (no monthly fee, but his province might not even have a fee) and because he has to pay tuition (hence pays no or almost no taxes given his income). The $11000 is what the school pays him after tuition is taken care of. Dental is covered by tuition.
The poster could have a roommate, or several roommates. He probably doesn't have a car, but taking transit is perfectly fine if you're a student in most Canadian cities.
Buying a house or having children is not something you would think or care about as a grad student. And he's paying into EI, so he can draw from that if he loses his job and has nowhere else to turn.

I have a friend in Calgary who splits a nice 1 bedroom apartment with his girlfriend. Including utilities and DSL, he pays $400/month for that. He has a hand-me-down car, but only uses that when leaving the city. Much of the furniture came from salvation army, auctions, as gifts, etc. He has enough money left over to go out for drinks, and buy himself new toys once in a while.

Re:11K/year

[Binestar]

You are forgetting deductions on your taxes. Just completed my taxes and for Being Married with one child my standard deduction was (IIRC) a little over $9k. That is $9k that you aren't charged taxes on.

If you are single, I believe the deduction is $6k but I'm not positive, havn't been single in awhile so I havn't bothered looking at the deductions.

So your math is certainly off there.

Re:11K/year

[MightyZug]

I 3 Ramen! Ramen... Feeding the poor since before I was born.

Re:11K/year

[cayenne8]

Nope...they are real people. The world does need its ditch diggers. But, I still don't feel that min. wage jobs are supposed to be for living wage. If someone relies on mw jobs...then they are going to have to work more than one. If they can bear to exist like this..well, ok. However, there are things people can do to better themselves...and move up to what we all called a 'real job' when I waited tables in college.

ps. Our cleaning crews get paid a good bit more than minimum wage...

Re:11K/year

[Timmmm]

Like food, a roof, shoes...

I was more thinking: Car, house, computer, hifi, maybe no tv...

Re:11K/year

[Jhon]

A miniwage employee loses 1/3 of their income to taxes, social security, and medicare.

They also get "free" money in the form of an EIC. For a single parent, that's basically an additional 10%-15% on top of their pre-tax wages. The 1/3rd you state is very misleading -- Federal taxes would run around 10%-15% (income and payroll taxes) -- hardly 1/3rd. Unless you also include state income and sales tax -- and those swing WIDELY from state to state -- from a big ZERO to an additional 30% or more.

Re:11K/year

[Lemmy Caution]

Personally, I feel that our ditch diggers should be able to earn a decent living wage with the ability to afford the basics - decent housing, basic medical care, and a baseline education for their children - and be able to get it with 40 hours a week of work. Supposedly, we're now more productive than ever. Instead of letting people work less, it's created a work-inflationary environment.

The taxation curve is completely screwed up, for one thing. There was once a time in which the tax rate for the bulk of Americans was negligible, and the richest of the rich paid as much as 85% income tax. Now the situation is practically reversed. I don't believe that it makes sense to grudgefully soak the rich and give to everyone else, nor do I think it wrong that there is some wage differential for more valued, more demanding work. But the way that CEO's can defer compensation in a way that directly - directly - soaks their workers (just look at what's been happening with executive pay while layoffs and benefit rollbacks are under full swing) - is just wrong. We need to go back to the patterns of income distribution that we had back in the 1950's. And even ditch diggers should be able to have a life where they can see their kids in the evenings, and get them medical care if they need it.

Re:11K/year

[donutello]

Ultimately, it should be hoped that living costs will come down in those US cities, but the monkey wrench in the works is housing: people are not willing to sell their homes for less than they paid for it, and with low interest rates on financing, they haven't felt a reason to yet.

Living costs will come down on a relative scale when the dollar falls as it is falling right now. Sure, that means your fancy imports will be more expensive than they used to be, but overall it will lead to a much more rational international price structure. US industry has been crushed by the strong dollar and the only way to revive it is with a weak one.

So your house prices won't go down in dollar terms but they will go down in real terms i.e. in terms of what you can buy in the rest of the world with the same money.

Re:11K/year

[overunderunderdone]

Personally, I feel that our ditch diggers should be able to earn a decent living wage with the ability to afford the basics - decent housing, basic medical care, and a baseline education for their children - and be able to get it with 40 hours a week of work.

Exactly how much is it worth to someone else to have the ditch dug? The alternative often is not between having a job at a "too low" wage or having it at a "living wage" but between having a job at a price that is worth it to someone else to pay or not having a job at all.

What you are saying is that because sometimes adults with adult responsibilities get stuck in entry level jobs that there should not BE entry level jobs. Every job should start right from the beginning paying at a rate sufficient to meet the needs of a head of household with dependents in 40 hours of work. Teenagers, college kids, empty-nest mothers, single adults, even married adults without children - anyone without the same need for high wages that the head of a household with multiple dependents has should not have the option to work at any lower wages. Even heads of households that would be willing to should prefer unemployment and welfare rather than having to work more than 40 hours to meet their obligations.

It is an imperfect world and people that are perfectly capable and deserving of better, more worthwhile, better paying work can't find it. But I don't believe the answer to people stuck on the lower rungs of the economic ladder is to cut off those rungs.

Re:11K/year

[Lemmy Caution]

Those aren't rungs. Those are bars. If those ditches are worth being dug at all, it's worth paying someone a basic decent wage to do it. And the market for such things is dictated as much by the pressures of the race to the bottom as by the actual value of the labor performed: it's a fallacy to assume that the low wage is only a function of low need - translate that logic, again, to the outflow of IT jobs.

I recommend Barbara Ehrenreich's Nickel and Dimed for a good look at the demographics and realities of mininum wage workers.

Re:11K/year

[overunderunderdone]

If those ditches are worth being dug at all, it's worth paying someone a basic decent wage to do it.

No. it is worth whatever it is worth to the person who wants it and at whatever wage someone is willing to do it for. A "basic decent wage" is a purely arbitrary number totally unrelated to the one persons need for a ditch and another persons need for an income. A "living wage" is the theoretical requirements of a person with the HIGHEST possible needs - a head of household with multiple dependents. If it is higher than what it is worth to the person needing the ditch they'll simply do without the ditch. Or, more likely, it will be higher than some other (formerly more expensive) means. For example what I may have once employed five guys with shovels to do I will now employ one guy with a backhoe - in either event five guys with crappy (but existent) jobs are now unemployed replaced by either no-one or by one guy with a decent job and better equipment. You believe that those five guys formerly employed as ditch diggers are better off unemployed.

As for Barbara Ehrenreich's book - it is an interesting and compelling concept I'm sure it provides valuable insights. But you should recognize that she started out with a conclusion and then set out to prove it. By doing so through the format of personal experiences and anecdotes she has ample opportunity to paint the picture in a way that confirms rather than undermines her prejudices. I'm not saying such a book lacks any value but it should taken with a grain of salt - recognized as a polemic rather than as a work of objective research.

Re:11K/year

[Lemmy Caution]

The caveat you apply to Ehrenreich's book also applies to works on economics: it would be disingenuous to say that, for example, a Milton Friedman book didn't start with the conclusion that unrestricted markets are optimal. Ehrenreich's axe is less dogmatic than Friedman's - she was motivated as much by curiosity as anything.

And yes, it is possible that it be better that those 5 guys are better off without *that* job: that the pressure to stay in that (and the other 1 or 2) job masks the opportunity cost of finding better work. After all, those 5 guys could be replaced by 1 with a backhoe regardless.

70-hours of work to support a sustenance lifestyle is not a good situation. Your point about the ambiguity of a "decent wage" is well taken, and in good labor policy it should be defined well and in terms appropriate to local cost of living, etc.

Re:11K/year

[overunderunderdone]

Ehrenreich's axe is less dogmatic than Friedman's - she was motivated as much by curiosity as anything.

No, she is an activist and a leader in the socialist party. I don't believe she was motivated out of curiosity but to prove a point she already "knew" to be true.

Your point of economics texts is partly valid, Economics is a "social science" which is really to say it's not much of a "science" at deals with subjective analysis that can't be proven in the same way a physics problem can. Still they have to account on some level with hard objective facts and I think many DO make at least some attempt to adhere to the scientific method of observation -> hypothesis -> prediction -> experimentation (or further observation) -> modification of the hypothesis. Ehnreich doesn't attempt this kind of analysis and her book is largely based on anecdotes and the personal experiences of a highly prejudiced observer in largely artificial situations she created. It's not surprising that she found what she expected.

I suspect that she fudges the experiment a bit to ensure that her hypothesis is proven true. For instance (taken from the nitpicks of largely positive reviews) she complains about the high cost of rent but never moves to split that cost with one or more roommates, she only stays at entry level jobs for a month discounting any possibility for advancement, getting a raise, increasing her level of benefits, or finding a better job in the same area. As far as I can tell she never pursues what private and public charity that remains available to help her out with some of those crushing expenses. She only appears to consider others in the same situation (people fully supporting themselves) without considering the large number of people that are only taking this kind of low wage work because they want a little extra spending money (again: teenagers, college kids, spouses working part time to supplement a primary income, empty-nesters, etc.)

70-hours of work to support a sustenance lifestyle is not a good situation.

No it's not but still a man (or woman) working 70 hours a week to just make ends meet and provide for his family has some significant advantages over the man who passively accepts the same amount as charity. The fruit of this may not be visible in one generation but I think the evidence (both statistical and anecdotal) is that passive welfare leads to multi-generational dependency and a permanent underclass whereas the back-breaking labor of the poor but self-reliant lays a foundation upon which the next generation builds solid success.

Re:11K/year

[Lemmy Caution]

I am not recommending a massive welfare system, and I think the evidence supports the claim that a culture of dependency is a real problem, especially over generations. But we're talking about labor minimums. Also, those multi-generational benefits you refer to aren't going to incentivize anyone currently working.

Making sure that working a full-time job can provide a better, more stable way of life than a life on welfare is vitally important to incentivizing that working life. As it is, it's too easy to lose meager medical benefits when one is in the working poor.

The lower rungs of working society are the ones that suffer the most for the lack of a reasonable safety net; it is they who are most likely to lose medical coverage, who are closest to being one check away from homelessness. Given that at least 3% unemployment at any given time is required to keep the labor market viable, it's more productive to maintain a certain amount of stability in those classes than to encourage the race-to-the-bottom.

Re:11K/year

[overunderunderdone]

Also, those multi-generational benefits you refer to aren't going to incentivize anyone currently working.

No, but they ARE currently working which is my point. Significantly increase the minimum wage and many of them won't be.

This is a very basic and non-controversial law of economics: the law of demand. Increasing the cost of anything ALWAYS decreases the demand (all other things being equal). Increasing the cost of labor will decrease the demand for labor. The people that are hit the most by this decreased demand are the unskilled laborers whose cost to employ has now gone up and who are usually in direct competition with skilled laborers (ditch diggers vs. backhoe operators, agricultural "stoop laborers" vs. operators of mechanical harvesters etc. etc.) This has been demonstrated time after time in the real world. Minimum wage increases tend to increase unemployment among the very poor while marginally increasing the wages of their skilled labor competitors who were already earning "a decent living wage".

Re:11K/year

[Lemmy Caution]

Rather than go on much about this old canard myself, I'll refer to the research of the Economic Policy Institute about the minimum wage. Among other fallacies it debunks is that of the demographics involved: most minimum wage employees are adults, and about half are full-time.

Don't overuse the simple model of supply and demand, especially when issues like pricing, competition, floors, and perception are involved. The most useful models are far, far more complex. - because all other things are not equal. Additionally, my original point stands: if there is necessary work that is peformed at the minimum wage, increasing the minimum wage ensures that a greater percentage of net buying power throughout the economy is in the hands of the working poor.

In fact, the effects you describe have not been "demonstrated again and again." The last increase of the minimum wage actually accompanied a drop in unemployment. And the net effect of an increased minimum wage is what's important: the strengthening of the economy at its roots.

Re:11K/year

[overunderunderdone]

I'll refer to the research of the Economic Policy Institute about the minimum wage.

I'll see your policy wonk think tank and raise you 1, 2, 3 4 5. I'm sure you could do the same. Once you get beyond the simple laws of economics (like supply and demand) to more complex theories I challenge you to find any two economists that really agree with each other. "If you put two economists in a room, you get two opinions, unless one of them is Lord Keynes, in which case you get three opinions." - Winston Churchill

Don't overuse the simple model of supply and demand, especially when issues like pricing, competition, floors, and perception are involved. The most useful models are far, far more complex.

The reality of course is far more complex than a simple graph of supply and demand. Unfortunately I don't see any evidence that any of the multitude of competing, contradicting complex models put out by a wide array of economists are any better. As I said economics is NOT really a science, they try and I think there is a good body of fundamental, basic insights into the basic behavior of economies. But as economic models become more complex the more controversial they are, there is no consensus aside from intellectual fads that wax and wane over time. Polls of economists over the years seem to indicate a great deal of agreement on the basics (like the law of supply and demand AND it's application to the minimum wage and price controls generally) while there is no agreement on the complex theories that purport to trump those basic rules. ("when done 'right', under certain conditions, at this time but not this other time, please forget that my last economic forecast was utterly wrong - I can explain that" etc. etc. etc.)

In any event even the complex models that attempt to show price controls on labor as being an exception to the basic rules of supply and demand that the vast majority of economists would agree apply to every other commodity are valid only at the margins. Perhaps a slight increase in the minimum wage would have no ill effects but I think even the most liberal economist would agree that an outrageous increase (say to $100 per hour just for an extreme example) would have a bad effect on employment. Where then is the cut-off, or the tipping point where the advantages for the poor outweigh the disadvantages? Is there even such a tipping point or does the ill effect just get smaller until it is masked by the various other effects that are also operating on the unemployment rate (or just easier to explain away as being due to other factors). If President Clinton raised the minimum wage marginally during a time of economic expansion and nearly "full employment" would we even notice the ill effects (unemployment was low, but would it have been lower still)? Would raising minimum wages during the early stages of a jobless recovery see the same absence (or masking) of ill effects? Would raising the minimum wage from $5.15/hr to a "living wage" often asserted to be $14/hr - well over double the current rate - have the same non-existent or negligible ill effects?

I think the basic laws of economics are fundamentally sound and underlie the immense complexity often masks them and provide numerous APPARENT counter-examples. I have no such confidence in various complex theories that attempt to show that these counter-examples are themselves the rule rather than the exception and that we can now ignore the old fundamental rules.

Population vs. population with jobs?

[bc90021]

With one billion people in India, what is being done to increase the number of employable people? Granted, while we in the US may not like our jobs leaving, it must be helpful to Indians. What is being done to increase the employability of the average Indian?

Re:Population vs. population with jobs?

[Anonymous Coward]

Is the Indian economy that we're moaning about, stealing all our jobs etc..., more of a western economy embedded in a third world economy, having little effect on more rural areas? They have enough people to do it...

Re:Population vs. population with jobs?

[cubicledrone]

it must be helpful to Indians.

Must it? Do you actually think that corporations are paying good wages for this work? Say, 10% less than what they were paying before?

Re:Population vs. population with jobs?

[TomV]

Given that the Indian family model is often rather more extended than the 'western' one, when an job which previously sustained a couple, perhaps with two children, in the USA, is outsourced, how many people are sustained by that job in India?

Hmm

[robotmurder]

Ask them if slashdot is popular in New Dehli?

Re:Hmm

[yora]

Well..

Reading /. at 2:30am from New Delhi!

It is quite popular nowadays. Esp among the usual /. target audience!

Re:Hmm

[Anonymous Coward]

Ok, as the only one in my company(I think) who browses Slashdot, i would think not. There are very few "true" geeks in here, most of them are just here for the money.

Re:Hmm

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm in Bangalore and my home page is set to http://slashdot.org. Clearly techies all over believe in reading slashdot on company time.

Re:Hmm

[bdaedalus]

Stupid Question. And who gives the score around here and tags it as 'Funny'??

Is Slashdot popular in any 1 city in the world??

I thought It was this whole factor of like-minded people finding a common place for interacting/voicing their opinions. How many /. are there in Washington D.C??

I live in Bangalore, India and know of quite a few people who interact through /., probably constituting more than from an average American City.

Education and Training

[Unloaded]

To what effect is the Indian education making changes to keep up with the demand for trained IT people?

USA software worker makes 60,000 USA dollars

[Anonymous Coward]

how much does an Indian get?

Real estate prices and cost of living

[prostoalex]

With the influx of cash and availability of higher incomes (according to local standards), how'd Indian real estate market doing? What does it cost to rent a two-bedroom for the family? To buy a house?

Do you think that Indian IT boom will repeat Californian and Eastern European patterns, where availability of US dollars drove the living costs through the roof, thus making developers not a whole lot cheaper than hiring local American engineers?

Do you see the costs rising in Indian real estate market? What would be the monthly salary, according to your estimate, to have a comfortable living in India in 2004, and let's say, 2009?

Re:Real estate prices and cost of living

[StupidHelpDeskGuy]

What are the working conditions for the average employee? Is the average employee working an 8 hour day, a 10 hour day, or longer?

What are the common positions available in India? What is the average salary by position? What is the average cost of a one bedroom apartment in a major city? Relative to the cost of living (specifically in the cities), are these jobs considered middle class?

Does the average employee have the freedom to change jobs, or to move? Or is room and board provided as a part of the total compensation package? If it's provided, does this limit people's ability to advocate for themselves on the job?

How much influence do management\ownership have on the average workers life?

SHDG-kindly doing the needful since 1998

Re:Real estate prices and cost of living

[ek-1000-ek]

I worked there for 2 yrs. "What are the working conditions for the average employee?" except when the AC broke down, it was wonderful. "Is the average employee working an 8 hour day, a 10 hour day, or longer?" It was 8 hrs. I was a bachelor and my friends were in same company, same office. So we used to hang in there. Go to gym in office. Talk to freinds in other section over tea, tea nad more tea. Leisurely continue to work on problems we faced. Many people in my office were not from same town. So there was no 'family' to go home to. So later we used to go to some place, have dinner, hang around, come back to office and do more work. So effectively it ended from 10-12 hrs. We were paid over time only of we were asked to stay back and not if we satyed back on our own. And no, they did ask us to stay back when needed and paid us the time even though they knew we would stay back anyway. One thing in India is you can get a expensive home and a real cheap one. Many friends share home. Rent a 3 bed room flat and pile in 3 or 4 people. that cuts teh cost of everything by 4! Typically we had cublicles. room was not liked as an option. people talked to each other loudly and joked around all the time. office was not liked as you were secluded. though it was a staus symbol. "How much influence do management\ownership have on the average workers life?" quite a lot!

Re:Real estate prices and cost of living

[dodobh]

Huh? Indian cities are *expensive*.
Mumbai rates are about 25K INR/sq ft. in the city to about 2K to 4K /sqft. in the suburbs.
Bangalore is between 1600 to 2500 INR/sqft.
Delhi is between 2K to 10K.
Hyderabad is from 800 to 2500 INR/sqft.

I pay about 5500 INR/mth as rent in a fairly posh area in Bangalore. A comfortable salary would be about 30K INR. 2009 salary would be about 45 to 50K for an equivalent lifestyle.

Re:Real estate prices and cost of living

[yora]

With the influx of cash and availability of higher incomes (according to local standards), how'd Indian real estate market doing? What does it cost to rent a two-bedroom for the family? To buy a house?

Real estate is already quite expensive over here, especially in Delhi & Bombay. Buying a house is real expensive, given what an average person earns. Most Indians living in the big cities don't own the house they live in.

Do you think that Indian IT boom will repeat Californian and Eastern European patterns, where availability of US dollars drove the living costs through the roof, thus making developers not a whole lot cheaper than hiring local American engineers?

Do you see the costs rising in Indian real estate market? What would be the monthly salary, according to your estimate, to have a comfortable living in India in 2004, and let's say, 2009?

Prices are already too high in India. In fact with increased real estate development and lowering of intrest rates for housing loans, cost of buying a new house has actually gone down. In the late 1980s and early 1990s there was a real estate boom in India. Now things have stabilized and over the last few years prices have started to come down.

Buying a 2-3 bedroom appartment costs at least Rs 1 - 1.5 million (approx US $20-30,000) in Delhi. In locations, the cost of a 3 or 4 bedroom house can be quite a bit more than Rs 10 million (around $200,000).

The situation with rented accomodation is quite different. Because of some old rental laws, people who have been living in the same rented house for a long time are paying real low rents. Even if you take a house on rent now, the costs are quite low. A house that would sell for say Rs. 6,000,000 (around $120,000) would be available for rent at Rs. 20,000 per month, or even less.

BTW... I am from New Delhi.

Re:Real estate prices and cost of living

[NickV]

Dude, Indian cities are NOT expensive compared to US Cities.

I live in Manhattan, probably in the top 3 of most expensive places in the world. A small little 350sq ft apartment on the island of Manhattan is over USD$1500 a month. I'm paying USD$1800 a month for my 750sqft 1 bedroom and I'm not even IN Manhattan (although I'm very very close.)

It makes me cry when I see people paying > $500 for a 1500 sqft place. That'd be easily over USD$3000 in Manhattan.

Sorry, just had to vent.

Re:Real estate prices and cost of living

[Argon]

Yes, the pattern you are talking about is already happening. It costs about 150-200$ to rent a comfortable two bedroom house in a nice area here in Bangalore. The cost of a two bedroom apartment is about $40000 to $60000, inching towards $80000 already. A two bedroom house will be costlier but obviously everything depends on the location; suburbs are cheaper.

While this appears cheap in US terms, these costs are astronomical in Indian terms. I have personally given up the idea of buying a house even though, I can probably afford it right now. I can't make sense of the real estate prices in Bangalore now.

So yes, five years down the line, it may not be a whole lot cheaper hiring developers in Bangalore. But India is a big country; there are smaller cities which are much cheaper than Bangalore, so it will probably take much longer (say ten years) for costs to be comparable to US levels. This is obviously my personal opinion, nothing scientific about it :-).

$1000 per month is a pretty good salary in India (even in Bangalore :-) right now. The current "official" inflation rate is about 5% in India. In actual terms, it's probably higher - may be 7 or 8%. You do your calculations for 2009 :-). I see rapidly rising real estate prices as a temporary phenomenon; it's bound to crash. It's happened before, and I bet it's going to happen again.

Re:Real estate prices and cost of living

[dodobh]

Hmmmm, Mumbai was the most expensive real estate a few years ago. If you want to compare with Manhattan, Cuffe Parade/Colaba in Mumbai start at about 2500 USD/month without parking space. Double the rental if you want parking space for a small car. Of course, by the standards of peoples income, Indian cities tend to get really expensive.

Biggest Contrast

[linuxislandsucks]

What is the bigget contrast between work and daily life in terms of:

-Internet Connection
-Electrictiy
-Water
-Living Space size when compared to office size

Re:Biggest Contrast

[bronto001]

I am an Indian (Bangalore)
---Internet Connection
I use a dialup at home... but that suffices for part... but good broadband *is*available for very affordable rates. including 128 kpbs ones on CDMA mobile phones ...truly mobile

----electricity
This is the biggest grouse for a Bangalorean. We still depend majorly on Hydel power.. it was set up in 1902 ;-) (BTW, Blore was the first city in Asia to be electrified).

---Water
Summers can be very dry sometimes

---Living space.
Bangaloreans, traditionally prefer independent housed compared to Apartments.. no complaints there. Enough space

Re:Biggest Contrast

[joggle]

How does this compare to your workplace (I assume you don't work from home)?

Re:Biggest Contrast

[bronto001]

I work for a startup..
So I really cant give my example as a typical sw dev. campus.

Re:Biggest Contrast

[Argon]

Internet Connection - pretty good at work. I think my company has a 2Mbps link - not T1, but quite nice for me (considering that when I started my career 64kbps was luxury :-). At home, still mostly dial up. Cable and DSL have limited availibility, expensive and not really broadband in the US sense. I think DSL/Cable gives you only about 128kbps - I don't have it yet, so I can't say for sure

Electricity - used to bad, but a lot, lot improved. We hardly have blackouts now, but happens once in a while. Offices have power backup, so we go about without noticing anything. Blackouts used to be about one or two hours power shutdown every day.In homes, many folks opt for power backup - but like I said blackouts are rarer these days, so it's not a big deal any more.

Water - is bad. Really bad in many cities. Per capita water consumption was always much less than US (less than a fourth if I remember correctly) but even that is in trouble in recent times. Most people use a "borewell" (i.e tapping underground water) to augment municipal supply. That has depleted ground water levels and caused even more problems. This is the biggest worry in most cities of India.

Living space when compared to office size - pretty good. My apartment is twice as big as some of one bedroom condos my friends rent in the US.

Cost of living?

[demigod]

What does a decent 2 bedroom apartment cost per month?

How about food for 1 month?

Utilities, etc?

Re:Cost of living?

[Anonymous Coward]

What does a decent 2 bedroom apartment cost per month?

Depends on how far it is from what americans call "downtown." See, unlike in the US, people in Indian cities prefer to live *near* downtown. So rents are much much higher if the flat is close to where the offices and shops are. Such a flat might cost around Rs 25000/- per month (around $500/-) and would be 1500 sq ft in size. 20 minutes away would be around Rs 10000/- per month. 30 minutes away would be around 5000/- per month.


How about food for 1 month?

I can eat out every night for less than Rs 300/- per person per night. If I cook at home, it'll probably cost me around 50/- max. (That's around $1 and change.) I don't have breakfast, and lunch is Rs 25 at the office - that's 50c to you.


Utilities, etc?


I assume that means water and power.

Let's see - power would be between 500/- to 1000/-

Water would usually be included in the flat rent or building charge. Say another 1500/- which would include water (unmetered) plus security and the use of the building gym and/or swimming pool.

Re:Cost of living?

[bronto001]

I am from Bangalore (IAFB) It depends on the location actually.... It can vary anywhere between Rs.3000/- to Rs.10,000 PM. Food? Depends... If you are vegetarian you can do with Just Rs.1000/- (Even Non-vegetarians(like me) dont eat meat/chicken/fish everyday. Its more like 1-2 times a week.) If you are eating out(which Bangaloreans love to do)... It could be anywhere upwards of Rs.3000/- Mind you, this is really for guys who eat out every day..

One more

[savagedome]

There are a lot of things going on 'behind the scenes' that nobody would tell you on the face. For eg. if you are applying to a university, the best people to get insider info is the student themselves. Even better if you have a friend.

Similarly, can we get info on any 'behind the scene' activities directly from the guys working there? Stuff that would be impossible to know if you talk to management or go via official channels.

Respect

[gowen]

On many news sites, including this one, its common to see remarks like:

Outsourcing is OK for repetitive or unchallenging tasks, but you can't get the cutting edge / high quality / knowledgeable programmers that you'll get in the USA

How does it feel to have your skills and knowledge continuously disparaged by people with little or no experience of working with Indian programmers?

Re:Respect

[Speare]

I would not phrase the issue the way you have quoted.

• Outsourcing is OK for repetitive or unchallenging tasks, but you can't get the cutting edge / high quality / knowledgeable programmers that you'll get in the USA

I would instead, with experience in the matter, address the dichotomy this way:

• If your company has developed a process to the point where all the variables are known and you can describe it sufficiently for a stranger to duplicate your results, then it is a valid and proper solution to find the cheapest stranger who will deliver those results. However, you should never outsource a prototyping task that you would build better yourself; you should never "experiment" with your outsourcing group; you should never invent at a distance. Outsourcing should be done to improve your efficiency, not your effectiveness.

It's not that the Indians are not capable of all those things; they are. But it is a matter of maintaining your core competencies, and ownership of design. Any outsourcing contractor has only one stake in the success: money. You have a stake in the success in many ways, and should always work to refine your own designs until they're perfect. No other firm in the world cares how effective your products are. These offshore companies excel at turning a definition into a production: that's their business model. The outsourcing houses are not geared up to do your designs for you, to read your minds, to focus-group your market, to educate you, or to replace you.

Paraphrasing the old maxim, Make it work, make it work well, then (get someone else to) make it work cheap.

Re:Respect

[Milo77]

The problem isn't specific to India - we had it here during the "boom". Tech jobs were plentiful so the universities started churning out tech grads. Some were good, but many were not - they were just there because it was easy money (or whatever). There was a lot a "chaff" in the boom (idiots if you will) - the bust has helped to remove these people (in my experience). In India I see the same problem multiplied by an order of magnitude: there are a billion people, and many are in poverty, so getting into tech has an incredible draw - much, much more than in the states during the boom ($10000 is upper, upper middle class). Indians are smart people, but there is a lot of chaff...

Re:Respect

[pantycrickets]

How does it feel to have your skills and knowledge continuously disparaged by people with little or no experience of working with Indian programmers?

Yes, and then how does it feel coming from people who do have experience working with Indian programmers?

Re:Respect

[richieb]

And this differs from the ratio in US programmers how?

Exactly!!!!

American Programmers

[JavaLord]

How do you feel about the American programmers that are angry they lost their jobs to outsourcing? Do you think they have a right to be angry?

Re:American Programmers

[Rosco P. Coltrane]

How do you feel about the American programmers that are angry they lost their jobs to outsourcing? Do you think they have a right to be angry?

You don't have to be bitter, it works both ways: many european companies prefer hiring US firms to do software or hardware projects, depriving local computer engineers of their jobs, because of the higher taxes and stricter employment regulations in the EC. Nobody in the US seems to complain about this, or feel bad about jobless EC workers, so why should Indians should feel bad about the US programmers they put out of a job?

Re:American Programmers

[shepd]

>How do you feel about the American programmers that are angry they lost their jobs to outsourcing? Do you think they have a right to be angry?

As long as welfare in the US remains dozens of times higher than the average wage in India, I don't think they'll shed any tears. Neither should you.

Re:American Programmers

[Tablizer]

They shouldn't. They should feel bad because they are being paid about 1/7 what the job is actually worth.

Who decides that? Brains are becoming a cheap commodity. Education is not a sure road to the middle-class like it used to be. It ain't the 1980's anymore. Janitors are now in more demand than programmers in the US because they are not currently offshore-able.

Re:American Programmers

[swillden]

They should feel bad because they are being paid about 1/7 what the job is actually worth.

Define 'worth', without reference to any particular market, then apply your definition to this statement and see if you still feel it's true.

Re:American Programmers

[Rosco P. Coltrane]

They should feel bad because they are being paid about 1/7 what the job is actually worth.

1/7th of what the job is worth *in the US*. In India, I suspect they're pretty well paid.

That's the flip-size of globalization my friend: since the end of WW2, the US have been busy opening new markets abroad for themselves. Now the new markets in question start to have the ability to compete on the same fields as US industries, and the ole globalization tactic is backfiring.

The USA hurt european countries bad in its days too, now it's their turn to get hit by emerging countries. Every part of the globe has had a glorious economic world-domination era at some point in history, be it Portugal, Italy, France or Britain. America's has started to decline. Tough luck, you're watching History in progress.

China and India have slowed down the Japanese economy, and now they're banging on your door guys. Time to get used to 10+% unemployment, like the rest of us.

Re:American Programmers

[C10H14N2]

When I was living in Europe a few years ago, there were U.S.-based multinationals everywhere and the big consulting firms were constantly at the universities---HIRING LOCALS. That's called "direct investment," not offshoring.

What companies are you are talking about?

Re:American Programmers

[Anonymous Coward]

Janitors are now in more demand than programmers in the US because they are not currently offshore-able.

Sure they are, if the shore you're referring to is on the Rio Grande.

Re:American Programmers

[C10H14N2]

As long as the cost of living is dozens of times higher, you shouldn't be so quick to consider it lavish. Unemployment maxes out at $330 per week for 26 weeks, which is the only welfare a single male with a previous income over about $20k will be eligble for. After taxes, that's about If you think $6100--and that is the MAXIMUM. As a single person, you will not receive that maximum unless you made over $60k. It's a pittance compared to the amount of tax revenue paid by the recipient.

The fact is, for many of the people in question, "welfare" (that is to say, AFDC, WIC, Medicaid) simply is not an option. They're not remotely eligible for it. The American system is designed so that the ones paying for it are not able to receive it. A $70k/year programmer pays about $8k per year into public health--and will NOT be eligible for public health coverage upon becoming unemployed. They also will not be eligible for food stamps or public housing.

In my case, there was one occasion where I needed public health assistance--at 27 I had just been laid off and ended up in cardiac care to the tune of $27k. In the previous three years, I had paid about as much into the public health budget (read: DHHS). I was responsible for every penny. Meanwhile, a minimum wage earner who has paid almost NOTHING into that budget would be 100% covered.

So yes, you should shed a tear. The people in question have paid for the welfare of others and are denied it when they need it. I gave America $54,631 in taxes in three years. America gave me $6,100 in unemployment and said "get lost."

That's hardly a lavishly paternal system.

Re:American Programmers

[arunarunarun]

I'm still a student here, in India, but I'll be working in 6 months or so. I don't think American programmers are wrong in being angry about losing their jobs. Who could take that calmly?

Unfortunately, the anger is misdirected. If someone were to offer you a job, at least in the world we live in, 99.99999% of people will take it, without particularly concerning themselves over whose jobs they're taking. And there're are always people with lesser morals who will take the job in a flash, so no purpose is served, except to gaining Moral High Ground - doesn't put food in your stomach.

The anger is better directed at the companies that have turned their backs on the people that faithfully served them. It makes more sense to blame the people who screwed you over so thoroughly.

Re:American Programmers

[Eravau]

And how many dozens of times higher is the cost of living in the U.S. than in India?

Re:American Programmers

[gcaseye6677]

I'll have to disagree. When European countries started losing world market share, they reacted by creating more social programs which required higher taxes and more business-unfriendly policies to sustain. This drove many companies out of these countries. I don't see the United States taking this approach, and I think they'll be better off for it. Remember, the majority of the money made by companies with most of their operations in the U.S. is still coming back to the U.S.

Re:American Programmers

[ankur_ag]

The programmers here dont have much sympathy for Americans losing job in USA due to them (if u Americans call it that way) . Much of us dont even know that programmers abroad are losing jobs secondly i think this job losing thing is little bit exaggerated , I dont have the stats but I dont thinks its not that much for creating such a big issue. Free economy works that way this is what we are told by the West when we are convinced to sign GATT or Western companies take a complete control of Indian market. US subsidies are strongly affecting survival of Indian farmers and Indian companies as a developing nation cannot afford so much of money for subsidies (the latest WTO fiasco). US companies have a complete control in India over FMCG sector .. only soft drink you can get is US .. all cars are generally Japanese or American and the list goes on and on.. this is due to vast amount of wealth the American companies have in comparison to even big corporates here .. so eithe US MNCs takeover them or make them unviable. It is not that I am complaining but what I want to say is that it is a give and take relationship.

Re:American Programmers

[gnuLNX]

I don't think that we are watching the downfall of america. Not yet. I suspect that she has another 500 years or so beofre you see a real downfall. Oh and then the fact that all americans can try and solve the problem together and then vote in someone to make those changes so. Unless the rest of the world embraces free thought I doubt the US will ever fall from number one. With that said I do hope all nations and all people embrace free thought. Even if it means that america has to becum 2, 3, 4,5 or where ever on the list. We are humans first, nations, second, and morons third.

Re:American Programmers

[sethstorm]

Well, I'll be glad when some Pakistan knocks on your door, and starts a nice nuclear exchange between both of your countries. I dont think outsourcing will work well for a job market if most of it is glowing, when they can go back to the States for workers who will be able to name their salary.

Re:American Programmers

[shepd]

>And how many dozens of times higher is the cost of living in the U.S. than in India?

According to the CIA world factbook:

India GDP per capita - $2,600
US GDP per capita - $36,300

The answer, therefore, is 1. Sorry the number isn't nearly as high as you expected, and shows that someone on US welfare lives more comfortably than a phone jockey in India.

HTH, and maybe better luck next time?

Re:American Programmers

[shepd]

>America gave me $6,100 in unemployment and said "get lost."

That's it?

Seems to me there's something fishy here. Everytime I'm in the US I see plenty of "Help Wanted" signs at McDonald's, who pay minimum wage of $5.15 an hour. That means the recipient, working an average 35 hours a week, can take home $9,373 a year.

Why aren't you working there? Are there no McDonald's in your area?

Perhaps it's just an east coast phenomenon that McDonald's can't find workers, and you are on the west coast?

All I know is that all the way from New York to Florida, minimum wage jobs are starved for workers, and they get paid more than welfare (according to your stats).

In short, I wonder, why didn't you get a job?

>Meanwhile, a minimum wage earner who has paid almost NOTHING into that budget would be 100% covered.

Seems you have the answer staring you in the face! The US thinks you need to get a job, ANY JOB. Unemployment rates in the US tell me you could have one right now, if you tried. Did you?

Re:American Programmers

[C10H14N2]

Funny coming from a Canuck.

The unemployment laws have a notion of "reasonable employment," since there is no economic benefit to the economy as a whole to take people with highly specialized skills and send them off to flipping burgers--there are PLENTY of people whose skillsets are limited to that who are willing to take those jobs.

The average timeframe to find new employment is six months. That is why unemployment benefits are for *ta-da* six months. Lately, that figure has been a bit shy of reality, with most unemployed taking twice that and longer. The insurance is there precisely so people are not forced to do what people like you would apparently love to seem them do: lose their house, starve their kids, beat their wife and commit suicide. In the last century, the vast majority of civilization has gotten past being that barbaric and overdosing on Hobbes. There are still a few holdouts who cling to their little Penguin copies of the collected works of Ayn Rand, but thankfully on a global scale they're an insignificant minority of cranks that even the Heritage Foundation and the 700 Club would find distasteful and morally repugnant.

The point here isn't that anyone has the right to something for nothing. It is that those who have paid the country's bills are given nothing in return when time comes that they need it--even though for most of their lives they'll never use those services they are disproportionately paying for. That is a nice solid "fiscal responsibility" issue. Those in the top 15% of incomes pay for practically the entire budget and get diddly squat out of it. Fully half the national budget goes into programs that those same contributors are nearly 100% ineligible for. That is a problem--roughly a trillion dollar problem and one that even dearest Alice Rosenbaum would take the same opinion on: "If I pay for something, I should get something." ...and yes, I'm working in my field again after moving 3000 miles across the country at a cost of $30k, which was less than half of my reserves. Before you jump on "but you didn't need it!" keep in mind that I had to liquidate equities to access those reserves. That is, shall we say, "a bad thing." If unemployment insurance and the various "welfare" programs can prevent that to any degree, that is "a good thing." The problem is that the current system does _not_ prevent that from happening and once high-income workers become unemployed, they dump their equities, which is the last thing the economy needs.

If all you can see in this is McDonald's, perhaps you should be working there yourself.

Re:American Programmers

[shepd]

>If all you can see in this is McDonald's, perhaps you should be working there yourself.

Actually, I own my own store (the one you probably noticed in my user info). And you make more than me (I get $400 CDN monthly "pay", so little I actually don't have to pay any taxes directly on that at all). However, I'm taking the "make less now, more later" road. Funny how you expect sympathy from someone making less than you.

>The unemployment laws have a notion of "reasonable employment," since there is no economic benefit to the economy as a whole to take people with highly specialized skills and send them off to flipping burgers--there are PLENTY of people whose skillsets are limited to that who are willing to take those jobs.

Just because you have a "skill" doesn't mean it's useful. The fact is, if there are no jobs you can get using your present skills, it's because all the needed positions are filled. ie: Your skills aren't important right now.

The fact is, if there's openings in other jobs, it's because that skill is needed. If you aren't willing to participate in needed skills, you can expect to remain unemployed, perhaps permanently.

>The average timeframe to find new employment is six months.

If you are going to refuse to do labour you don't enjoy, yes. I've discussed this at length with people graduating from my class at college, and while I opened up my own store, they spent between 4-8 months looking for the job "just right" for them. Then I ask them the hard question: "Did you get any offers?". The answer? "Nothing I wanted." Did you apply for all jobs? "All the ones I wanted."

I have ZERO sympathy for people who bitch about being unemployed as long as they don't apply for jobs they don't like that much. It's like the graduate who wouldn't take the RPG job because "It wasn't my style." They spent another 4 months leeching welfare to get a different job, that they liked, but paid FAR less. And they weren't even able to hold their dream job (they're now unemployed again). I bet they wish they'd taken the RPG position now...

>The insurance is there precisely so people are not forced to do what people like you would apparently love to seem them do: lose their house, starve their kids, beat their wife and commit suicide.

I said nothing of the sort. Don't put words into my mouth unless you want some shoved in yours. I'd call you a wefare-sucking-elitist-leech, but then I'd be doing the same.

I believe people should make themselves useful to society in whatever way society thinks they'd be useful. Guess what. YOU COULD BE USEFUL RIGHT NOW IF YOU'D CHANGE YOUR PRIORITIES. Stop it with the ego, make with the eggo, my friend.

>It is that those who have paid the country's bills are given nothing in return when time comes that they need it--even though for most of their lives they'll never use those services they are disproportionately paying for.

Fix it and vote libertarian next time. I did. Don't grouse to me about problems I deal with every day. Every time I move in this business I'm taxed more than you could believe (My business pays probably 3x more in tax than I make), so rather than try to sqeeze more out of the government and needlessly up the taxes, I'm trying to fix the problem.

Fixing the problem entails abolishing support programs for the able bodied and able minded. It does not entail "give me back every penny I paid". No program, especially a government program, will be able to work like that. Administration fees alone have been known to outstrip the actual benefits reaped by government from taxes.

Kill the service, get rid of the problem.

>I'm working in my field again after moving 3000 miles across the country at a cost of $30k, which was less than half of my reserves.

In that case I'm right, you certainly could have found employment, but chose to do differently because you wanted to stay in your field. It's your choice, and it may have bee

Re:American Programmers

[C10H14N2]

I'm not expecting sympathy. Why would I expect sympathy from a complete stranger in another country? My academic background is in political science, so the policy side of this situation is what concerns me. I also have a background in social services and healthcare finance, so I've known the eligibility side of this for the better part of twenty years. This is a HUGE problem in America. That I experienced the effects myself only serves to bolster my interest in the problem, regardless of how much I "needed" public assistance at any point in my life.

That you are so hostile to someone saying "hey, this policy is ass-backwards" is a mystery. It has nothing to do with "sympathy" and everything to do with effective public policy. The current system is not effective. That's the point. Period.

Re:American Programmers

[shepd]

>I also have a background in social services and healthcare finance, so I've known the eligibility side of this for the better part of twenty years. This is a HUGE problem in America. That I experienced the effects myself only serves to bolster my interest in the problem, regardless of how much I "needed" public assistance at any point in my life.

Ok, tell you what. Since you seem to be best qualified to answer this, tell me what's so broken. Tell me why it made more sense to you (as a qualified-to-asnwer individual) to be on welfare than be working a job you might not enjoy, but definately paid more.

A few other things: If welfare were higher, would you have been in such a rush to become useful to the economy again? Or would you have been more willing to sit back and see what comes your way? Or is there something else you might have done?

I'm thinking it would have made you a little more sedentary at looking for a job. To improve, IMHO, a country needs every able bodied person at the wheels getting stuff done. It certainly seems, from my experience in Canada, weaning people from welfare is difficult.

Considering the absolutely amazing amount of progress India has had in the past 100 years, their system seems to be working absolute wonders. Perhaps it's this work ethic, combined with a willingness to get things done for less pay, that's influencing companies to hire immigrants, especially educated ones from developing countries? I have had it commented to me, serveral times, that hiring someone from outside the country will get you a worker more willing to put in all their effort than not. Can you comment on why this is?

>That you are so hostile to someone saying "hey, this policy is ass-backwards" is a mystery.

I'm hostile because I am paying a lot of taxes for services that, quite frankly, are totally unnecessary. You did seem a bit hostile on that point also, I think you might agree.

Then I get a bit more hostile when people start bashing my ideals without good reason*. You know, sort of like saying "Everybody from your political party is [insert expletive]".

* - My ideals not agreeing with a few radical groups not being a particularly good reason. I think you might find a few of the more moderate libertarian-style parties to be much closer than you might think to popular political parties.

For comparison, here's the Libertarianeqsue party I plan to run for locally (once elections come up in... argh... 4 years), and here's the party elected to Premier (like Governor) twice (but lost this time) in the past decade.

Re:American Programmers

[C10H14N2]

Eligibility is what is broken. For instance on healthcare, the law states that hospitals MUST provide emergency medical coverage with no regard to payment. That 70+ million americans are NOT covered by public health and also do not have private insurance, that's a huge fiscal disaster. Want to know why American healthcare service is so expensive? That's the primary reason. Hospitals have gone bankrupt because of it.

As for "welfare" (which is not really what we're talking about, but I've already defined my terms, so moving right along), the point is that if it did not exist, sure, people would find something faster. However, there is a greater economic interest in keeping people in their specialized fields. If you disagree with that on principle, there's no argument that will convince you otherwise and I'm done trying.

If you are truly interested, however, do your own homework. Here are some starting points:

The Budget:
www.omb.gov

The "objective" analysis of the results of the budget:
www.gao.gov

What we're actually earning and paying:
www.irs.gov

Whose got health coverage:
www.dhhs.gov

Everything you never wanted to know about employment and the lack thereof:
www.labor.gov

Re:American Programmers

[shepd]

>For instance on healthcare, the law states that hospitals MUST provide emergency medical coverage with no regard to payment. That 70+ million americans are NOT covered by public health and also do not have private insurance, that's a huge fiscal disaster.

Sounds like a raw deal. Hospitals did know this when they got into the game, no? Are they run as private entities there? If so, them's the breaks. The system is simply correcting itself for the forced losses imposed on it by government by raising prices wherever possible. The two obvious solutions would be to either make it a public service, or to bust the government out of hospitals. As I never did cry when I watched John Q., I'd probably go for #2.

Otherwise, sounds like a complicated problem which I'm not qualified to solve. However, I might suggest a two-tier system, similar to what the prior Ontario government was pushing towards.

>However, there is a greater economic interest in keeping people in their specialized fields. If you disagree with that on principle, there's no argument that will convince you otherwise and I'm done trying.

I'll not disagree on it in principle; I'm open to a good argument on why there's a greater economic interest in having people with unemployable skills stick with them, rather than move to another skillset which offers increased employment opportunities (even if the skillset is "unskilled labour").

It has always seemed to me that outdated/outmoded/unwanted (generally because of the prior) skills are best weeded out. We don't have phrenologists, alchemists, or many typewriter repairmen (hey, gotta throw that in!) because of it, and, IMHO, that's not a bad thing at all.

I'm a strong believer that the capitalist system of laissez faire economics will, after a period of instability (in whatever is the problem), always find it's own solution to problems. For example, while there was a downturn in employment for your field, new jobs appeared when market conditions levelled, and I bet that in the next year or two, there'll be a lot more available, and you'll probably be wanting (rightly) a raise.

However, if the job is truly unnecessary, there'll never be work available in it, and the job skill will cease to exist, and nobody but historians will care.

That's how I see it, anyways.

Re:American Programmers

[Eravau]

For future reference, where's the quickest place to find the GDP for X country?

Re:American Programmers

[shepd]

CIA World Factbook. :-)

HTH!

What are Indians' attitudes toward the West?

[Anonymous Coward]

Is the attitude positive because of the increase in trade between us, negative because of cultural invasion, or a combination?

And I'm serious, don't just say "Oh, we love the West" if all you like is the outsourced job. I personally feel that trade is the best form of foreign aid, but I'd rather have an honest enemy than a ally who lies to me.

Re:What are Indians' attitudes toward the West?

[SlashingComments]

Like any other places, there are different view points. That being said, here is the one version

a)Indian's most of the time well respect the people with very white skins/black skins.

b)Going to USA was a great deal but not anymore since everybody's brother or sister visited US by now.

c)In general, technically they think Indian's are better at math and science but worse at smartness and games etc.

d) Baseball and football are two stupid games - don't come close the Cricket and Soccer

e) mighty pissed at US backing Pakistan in war-on-terror

g) Religion conversion is an evil thing done by people from the west

g)This is most important--if money to be made by doing business with US, then, you are god and the best friend.

I guess this is just one opinion out of 10000 etc. but this is a start.

Re:What are Indians' attitudes toward the West?

[jpnews]

"... I'd rather have an honest enemy than a ally who lies to me."

Oh, is that all? [*snicker*] Not very likely, my friend... not among the human race.

Distorting the Economy

[BigBadBri]

Not specifically about IT outsourcing, but more about call centre outsourcing - does the drain of educated people to call centres have any implications for the rest of the economy?

Call centre staff can earn more than teachers, police, nurses, etc - are those professions suffering as a result of the call centres picking out the English speakers?

Is this storing up problems for India's public sector in the future?

Re:Distorting the Economy

[pete-classic]

It would be pretty hard for the call cent[er|re]s to pick out all of the English speakers, since it is the single most common language spoken in India.

-Peter

Re:Distorting the Economy

[BigBadBri]

I think you've misread the CIA document - it doesn't give any figures for English, it merely highlights it as being 'important'.

I don't know what the figures are, either - but even if only 5% of Indians could speak English well, that's still 50 million - more than the number of British that can speak English well ;).

It's more a question about the loss of educated people to the public sector, and how much this will cost in increased public sector wages in the future as wage levels rise to attract better candidates.

Thanks for the link, though.

Re:Distorting the Economy

[Rosco P. Coltrane]

even if only 5% of Indians could speak English well, that's still 50 million - more than the number of British that can speak English well

I really don't understand that statement at all. Could you please explain?

Regard,
-- Sir Mountbatten

Re:Distorting the Economy

[rueba]

Population of India ~ 1 billion(1,000 million).

Population of Britain ~ 50 million.

Hence if 5% of Indians speak English well that equals the entire population of Britain.

At least this is what I understood from this comment.

Re:Distorting the Economy

[Nick_dm]

I think it was a joke at the expense of the average Brit. A pretty high proportion of people in the UK make plenty of grammatical errors in their speech. Grammar isn't taught formally in most schools now (I know I have plenty of glitches and I was at a private school) and certainly plenty areas blue collar/lower class/less educated (not meaning to be rude just trying to get a point across) people won't really care at all.

On the other hand many Indians who speak English will have been very well taught (so much so that they can willingly add accents and regional slang to blend in on the phone), so they almost certainly have better technical English skills then much of the population.

Britain's population is over 50 million but since many of those won't speak English perfectly there may be more good English speakers in India.

Re:Distorting the Economy

[killmeplease]

I don't think you understand how India is put together. When the english colonized India, English became the language that everyone learned in. So everyone in India with a good education and even some of those without a great education speak englsh.

What about the long-term?

[The Night Watchman]

This point has already been mentioned a bit by previous articles, but I'd like to hear an insider's take on it. The Indian tech economy is booming now, but like in the US, it's an unstable boom. Sooner or later, the US will look to other countries for their tech work, leaving India high and dry. What measures are being taken in India to maintain a strong internal tech economy, in the event that the US is no longer a serious customer?

---

The Simpsons

[preric]

Totally off topic, but I've always wondered: is the character Apu Nahasapeemapetilon on The Simpsons insulting to Indian's? Do they even air The Simpsons there?

Re:The Simpsons

[waywardone]

I know that they do air The Simpsons in India, although not the very latest episodes, but I don't know how they feel about Apu.

Re:The Simpsons

[hotchai]

As an Indian, and a big Simpsons fan, I can answer that question right here.

Apu represents the stereotypical image of an Indian. I personally find it quite amusing, others may have a different opinion. Of course, like any other stereotype, not everyone fits that description. What makes India so interesting is the different subcultures within the country (these differences are more pronounced than the subculture differences in the US), people skeak different languages in different states, different types of food and in some cases different types of clothes as well. So Apu cannot represent a typical Indian ... there is no such thing as a typical Indian.

Apu & Manjula are indeed Indian names - not very common but not uncommon either. So are the names of all their kids ... I never seem to remember them all. The last name however makes no sense! But, somebody obviously did some research in coming up with these characters.

Re:The Simpsons

[groomed]

You might as well ask whether Homer Simpson is insulting to Americans.

Re:The Simpsons

[miageek]

As an Indian techie, I can say yes, Simpson is aired there (without any censorship :)) and no, we (atleast most of us) do not find it insulting..We understand it is a satirical representation of Indian stereotype and as it is with every stereotype, they are more often than not inaccurate..In fact, it is one of my favorite shows.. Another character perhaps more pertaining to geeks and equally funny is Asok the Intern in Dilbert and is again not insulting..:)

Re:The Simpsons

[infinite9]

But, somebody obviously did some research in coming up with these characters.


Or maybe they just asked their IT friends to name all their coworkers.

Re:USA software worker makes 60,000 USA dollars

[donnyspi]

An amount proportional to their cost of living. Certainly less than 60k, but 60k means something different in their country.

Business logic

[lake2112]

What training is given to them to understand the Western culture that their products are meant to serve? Is there some sort of liason who answers questions about the good ol US of A? Are you meant to assume certain things?

Tech Center Job Prestige

[grungebox]

Some of my cousins in India tell me that those tech center jobs, such as Dell Tech Support, are actually prestigious in India. Is a tech center job really considered a job to brag about, even though in the US tech support people aren't really admired, to say the least?

Re:Tech Center Job Prestige

[Dutchmaan]

Like any job prestige comes from the level of difficulity and the method in which it's handled.

Tech support may be easy for ones own system but the job difficulity increases ten fold when you have to communicate with someone who is not tech literate.

If you are good at tech support for a large multinational corporation, then yes it would be a rather prestigeous job in a country that values it's tech industry.

Re:Tech Center Job Prestige

[Lehk228]

Successfully dealing with the idiocy of many people while they are trying to get their computer working ("Check to see if the cable between the printer and computer is loose"..."What cable?"..."AARRGGHHH") I would have to say troubleshooting a dell machine in and of itself is a pretty big accomplishment ( this from a guy who buys and likes eMachines computers)

Re:Tech Center Job Prestige

[bronto001]

Yeah! sort of... and not really... For freshies just out of college, these jobs are just a way of earning pocket money and learn some skills. But most people I've interacted with, would gladly leave these jobs for one with good learning potential..even for half the pay. I work for a startup and 2/4 of our hirings have been such.

Interview Question: starting your own businesses

[frankmanowar]

There exists I think an assumption that the tech industry in India is a legion of coders being handed work from foreign companies, grunting it out for lower wages. Do Indian techs feel that they have the opportunity now to become the producers, the designers, the ones who create businesses? Frankafrank

Questions to ask

[Sharkus]

Do you have a comparable quality of life to those in the US and UK? Does it bother you at all that you may be taking a job from a person in another country because you are working for what that other country considers a 'lesser' wage, but you consider a very good wage? Do you have any worries that this boom in outsourcing from the rest of the world may abruptly end, much like the dot.com boom ended, and if it does, what will you do then? how do you see India's econmy being effected by this? How much training and knowledge of programming do you have, what qualifications and such do you hold?

Re:Questions to ask

[Anonymous Coward]

Does it bother you at all that you may be taking a job from a person in another country because you are working for what that other country considers a 'lesser' wage, but you consider a very good wage?

Given the costs of living, Americans can be cheaper to hire than some their European counterparts. Does taking jobs away from Europe by working for less bother you?

Re:Questions to ask

[Anonymous Coward]

Are you serious, You must be kidding me, the life style is MUCH BETTER than here depending upon how you look at it. I know people who have stayed here for a few decades, only to go back to India for the better life style. Can you afford a big mansion for $100,000. How about a few servants to help you out with your domestic work or a driver to drive you around. An indian techie can afford all this with his job as a 'code monkey'. As for me , I grew up in India but have been working in US for last several years and I sometimes wonder what these dollars can buy me when i pay a significant rent/mortgage and a whopping amount in car payments and health insurance. You work 50 hours a wekk, do your own grocery, spend 1000's of dollars on day care.

Like I said, my friend it depends on how you look at it. And trust me it can be as good if not better than the life style here.

Re:Questions to ask

[Anonymous Coward]

disclaimer: my opinion. i am sure other indians will have a different view.

Do you have a comparable quality of life to those in the US and UK

yes

Does it bother you at all that you may be taking a job from a person in another country because you are working for what that other country considers a 'lesser' wage, but you consider a very good wage?

Yes. but i console myself by saying it is just the effect of globalization. one day it evens out. if u want us to drink your coke, wear nike, buy your weapons, you may as well have to "bear our support" when you call our 24 hr call center.

Do you have any worries that this boom in outsourcing from the rest of the world may abruptly end, much like the dot.com boom ended, and if it does, what will you do then?

i personally do not worry. i will search for different carrer(teaching/farming etc).

How much training and knowledge of programming do you have

i am a developer with 3 yrs experience. i hold bachelors degree in mechanical engineering. most techworkers are BE graduates. some managers are MBAs. all call center workers are educated.

What's the diff?

[Saeed al-Sahaf]

"It seems to me that in ramping up from a few hundred to thosands of programmers over the past few years, most of these people must be fresh out of school"

And this was not the case here in the USA during the "Dot Com Boom"? I sense an invalid argument...

Re:What's the diff?

[MoonBuggy]

There was no argument, there was a question from someone who was interested in an answer.

Re:What's the diff?

[Geeyzus]

>>And this was not the case here in the USA during the "Dot Com Boom"? I sense an invalid argument...

What argument? He never said that this wasn't the case during the dot-com days (it clearly was). He is just trying to get a feel for the scene over there, how similar it is to the scene here in the late 90s. A valid question if you ask me, especially considering that most of us have no clue about the average Indian programmer.

Mark

Re:What's the diff?

[pantycrickets]

And this was not the case here in the USA during the "Dot Com Boom"? I sense an invalid argument...

I think during that period in America we probably had more tech workers per capita than India. I sense an overly "culturally sympathetic" troll.

Re:What's the diff?

[cynic783]

Hmmmm. Seems to have touched a nerve. In my experience you get what you pay for.

Re:What's the diff?

[FuzzyYellowTom]

I don't think we should blame Indian programmers for the sins of corporate america. They are simply taking advantage of situation our own companies created. I would do the same thing in their position. The big smack should happen to american companies if that's the right solution. I am curious about something mentioned earlier. Right now India is the best priced competitor but in 2-5 years it may be China or some other. what are Indian programmers doing to prepare for the inevitable slump. They have to see it coming at some point I would guess?

Re:What's the diff?

[MoonBuggy]

Actually I wasn't intending to be pedantic. The phrasing 'how much training do people need' said to me that s/he was interested in how long they spend in tech school and if the training is adequate, which it could well be.

Re:What's the diff?

[Saeed al-Sahaf]

And in different parts of the world, different standards of living require different wage structures. But writing acceptable code is the same. And please remember there are plenty of code hacks right here in the Good Ole U. S. of A.

Why are so many Indians in American CS programs?

[Anonymous Coward]

My school's CS department was/is full of Indians. Do most of these students come here hoping to get jobs in America when they graduate or are they interested in going back to India and taking advantage of the outsourcing boom there? Are we as American technical workers shooting ourselves in the foot by helping to train our replacements in American academic institutions?

Have you planned better than us?

[GreenCrackBaby]

I'd ask: what are you all planning to do when your jobs go to Russia as soon as you become too expensive for the US corporations? Plan now, because it's starting to happen.

Hopefully you guys are able to weather the storm better than us.

Re:Have you planned better than us?

[Tablizer]

...as soon as you become too expensive for the US corporations?

One advantage India has over other nations is that English is one of two primary languages there. Everybody learns it in grade school because it is the only way to communicate across local dialects. Places like Russia are going to have fewer people fluent in English. But if English is a requirement for economic survivle, you can be assured that this will change.

Re:Have you planned better than us?

[pantycrickets]

Hopefully you guys are able to weather the storm better than us.

Well, considering that this tech boom in India is going to throw their economic balance out of whack for years to come, and that they don't really have any comparable industry/income to fall back on.. yeah, I'd say hold your breath.

Re:Have you planned better than us?

[Slashamatic]

this isn't really a major problem. Call centres in India are already finding that what they think is English and what others think are different. Indians can write good English though. Russians can write but not so well. Both work with English specs.

The problem that India has is that it is too Asian. Russia is part Asian, part European. The Asian part means that everything has to pretty much run top down. Russian programmers are more likely to signal a major issue with a spec and then avoid implementing a misunderstanding. OTOH, Indians are better team workers. Russian programmers tend to be quite individualistic and require careful management to get useful code out of them.

Re:Have you planned better than us?

[aacool]

Please cite references for blanket assertions above.

Re:Have you planned better than us?

[Slashamatic]

Um I'm supervising outsourced projects. At the moment I'm designing a QA strategy to address some of the problems.

How's the broadband?

[DrSkwid]

can't beat telecommuting from somewhere with such a low cost of living.

I'll be there next Winter but international GSM is a bit pricey.

Re:How's the broadband?

[arglesnaf]

I used a prepaid sim in Bombay, around 2.5 cents a minute American.

Re:How's the broadband?

[Oopsz]

What company is that with? I'll be out there this summer, and microcell roaming is ~$1.29/min.

Re:How's the broadband?

[arglesnaf]

Orange. Calls to the States from India were aroung 30 cents US, Incoming Free, 2.5 to Bombay Landlines, 2.2 to Bombay Cells, like 7 to other states in India. You have to fake residency though, or have someone else fill it out for you.

Re:How's the broadband?

[Oopsz]

30 cents for ISD calls? On a mobile? That's ridiculous, I pay more than that from the USA to india! Thanks for the tip :)

Reverse resentment?

[grungebox]

I know many Americans resent programming jobs going to India. A decade ago, did Indian engineers/programmers resent America for forcing them to leave to find jobs in a land far from home?

Re:Reverse resentment?

[druske]

This question of "reverse resentment" has an interesting implication. It asks if Indian engineers resented America, apparently suggesting that American engineers harbor resentment of India.

If so, I believe resentment of India or its people is misplaced. I'm a U.S. programmer; I'm fortunate in that I haven't lost my job to outsourcing, at least not yet. If I did, however, the "blame" would reside perhaps with myself, perhaps with my employer, or perhaps with the stockholders that my employer answers to. Pretty much an all-U.S. list, I'd expect.

It's not the fault of someone in India, or China, or Russia, if they happen to choose the same occupation that I did, and can make a good living at it. They're just trying to feed their families, same as everyone else.

I'm not making light of the difficulties facing U.S. engineers. I have friends who've been displaced and are looking for work, and others who've moved on to work outside of engineering altogether. I may very well join their ranks. But I think it's important that, regardless of what comes next, we don't let it turn into a resentment of countries and people who, really, are just trying to do the best they can.

Re:Reverse resentment?

[pantycrickets]

A decade ago, did Indian engineers/programmers resent America for forcing them to leave to find jobs in a land far from home?

If it weren't for American companies industrializing and making a market for themselves, I suppose we would be forced to move off to far away lands in search of work. But we didn't do that.

/Kind of sick of all the welfare talk.

Re:Why are so many Indians in American CS programs

[donnyspi]

I took several certification tests on BrainBench.com. I noticed that many, many of the top 100 scorers on each test had Indian sounding names. Do BrainBench and similar certs mean anything in India?

Do they all buy Gateways?

[tommck]

You know... because of the cow thing...

(It's a joke people!)

Re:Do they all buy Gateways?

[Oopsz]

Well, that is actually the reason my dad bought a gateway in 1993. 486DX2, 50mhz, and cow decals. Silly parents.

I wish that americans/euopeans would get past this

[WindBourne]

First off, for the record, I underwent a 5 month unemployment (wonderful economy we now have), and am still digging out from the debt that I went into.

Currently ATT, IBM, and HP have been busy off-shoring (BTW, after the Nov. election, Sun and MS will be joining that in a BIG way if my friends from these companies are being honest). These companies have moving to places that are preceived lower costs. The real problem, though, has been bad management that selects based on politics rather than on skills. With the off-shoring, they will also go and in these sites, costs will go up.

Now, the real thing. If you have smarts and you have a good degree, quite your carping. Think about what is lacking out there that you can develop and sell. There are plenty of interesting ideas and business models. Jump on it. My only suggestion is do not simply hire your friends. Look out on the web and find some of the best ppl for the job. The tech industry has already shown that a distributed model works for it. This is your opportunity to create something. When there is upheavel in an industry is the time to be there.

No, really...

[Anonymous Coward]

Do you think it is moral for U.S. executives to destroy the middle class of their own country just so they can make their quarterly numbers and get their performance bonus?

-or-

Is the "globalization" playing field really level when corps can use it to drive down costs, but citizens can't us it to buy cheaper drugs from Canada?

Re:No, really...

[be-fan]

Your post is a perfect example of what people are doing wrong.

First, ignore the facts for a moment and pretend that outsourcing really is destroying the US middle class. How do you suppose we can keep executives from doing this? Of course, we can make protectionist laws to stop outsourcing. However, its protectionist laws of this sort that keeep citizens from buying foreign drugs!

You should be calling for an end to protectionist drug laws, not for the instatement of new protectionist laws!

BTW> In any capitalist system, the rich will be getting richer faster than the middle class gets richer. Its an example of exponential growth, not linear growth. Protectionist laws keep the gap from growing larger not by addressing the inequity, but by limiting growth! If you believe that the gap between the rich and the middle-class should be smaller, don't vote for protectionism, but vote for increased taxes to support increased social services (healthcare, education), which increases equality without sacrificing growth.

Re:No, really...

[FerretFrottage]

Corps and special interest groups donate millions and millions of dollars to the people we elect. The only time we matter is on those special Tuesday when we get to vote. After that, it's show me the money and elected offical will do their best to screw over those people who got them where they are in the first place if the price is right.

For love or money?

[GoofyBoy]

There are many here who read slashdot who do computer stuff for the love of computers. They work on OpenSource projects for no money. In their spare time, they use a computer. Lots here, I would say, would be happy with half decent pay and just program all day long.

Do the majority do compter related employees do it for the money or for the love or working with computers?
If they were offered more money, would they switch in an instant?

Re:For love or money?

[bronto001]

I am an Indian. I read slashdot for not less than an hour a day ( am I addicted?) I work for a start up in the area of AI. Before this I was working for an giant American Mnf. MNC for double the salary what i am getting now. I evangalise Linux and open source. (We use Mozilla, Linux,Tomcat etc.. at our workplace). I'm writing a GNU/GPL'd software for visualisation of large data. Would I switch if offerd a bigger salary? No, if its a mind numbing code-shop, even if its 3 times my current pay. Yes, If I get to learn more in the area of my interest and get encouraged to implement them.... There is no *typcial* Indian. At least I am not one. Having said that, I dont have any issues with most of my friends who fit your alleged profile either ... ;-)

Re:For love or money?

[Milo77]

Of course oss is created all over the world, so take the following with a grain of salt since i can only speak to the american perspective.

i think your question is terribly american (or any prosperous nation). on the "ladder of needs", americans are at the top: shelter - check, food - check, other basic needs - check. at the top of the ladder are the real worm fuzzies like self actualization. basically, we've got everything we need and most things we want, so we have a lot of time to sit around thinking about the "meaning of life", etc. your questions is aimed at a country where many are in severe poverty. ask again in a couple or three generations (assuming their economy survives - hopefully it will). in your spare time you use computers - in large portions of india spare time is spent trying to stay alive.

Re:For love or money?

[dfj225]

I think that this might be more of a problem in America than over-seas. As a freshman CS major in an eastern Universtiy, I have noticed that a large group of my fellow CS majors seem to have no love of computers. It seems like they simply picked a lucrative field in what they thought would be an "easy" major. So far, for me (someone who already knows how to code), the course work has been easy. However, I know that it will not stay easy for long. Even with the simple assignments we have been given, many people have failed already. I know that if I didn't love computers I wouldn't be a CS major. I've learned languages on my own and try to read lots of tech news. To some, this might be considered "homework" but I do it out of love.

Re:For love or money?

[univgeek]

Where's the love coming from?

Most Americans have had access to computing resources since they were toddlers. Many grew up programming, and got to love it.

Most Indians did not have access to a computer at home. Any 'love' is picked up either in the last couple of years in high school, where you get access once a week for a few hours, or in the bachelor's program, where you may be able to access a lab 24/7.

Of course since around '96 most college students purchase PC's, and nowadays there are many parents who buy computers for their kids to learn with.

So if the 'love' can develop at work, sure. But for many it is probably just a job.

Indian techies & cricket

[DrQu xum]

Do Indian techies play or watch a good deal of cricket? I'm an American techie and I personally can't get enough of it (seriously -- ask any of my co-workers!)

Or, a more general question, do Indian techies find themselves doing more physical non-work activities than Western ones?

Re:Indian techies & cricket

[tommck]

Weren't all your co-workers' jobs outsourced to India already? :)

Re:Indian techies & cricket

[Darth RadaR]

Do Indian techies play or watch a good deal of cricket?

I worked at an American site that had a bunch of Indian programmers. They were constantly keeping up with the play by plays during the 2003 Cricket World Cup. In fact, any serious productivity stopped until India was beat by Australia. Let me tell you, my Indian cow-orkers were seriously bummed out after that.

Re:Indian techies & cricket

[DrQu xum]

I work in a University; we can't get outsourced. I hope.

Move

[savagedome]

I want to ask them when are they planning to move from New Delhi to Bangalore? :)

J2EE or .NET?

[DA_MAN_DA_MYTH]

Just a consensus will do...

What is the standard of living like?

[zzyzx]

We hear conflicting reports from "$11,000 means you could live like a king" to "Material goods are so expensive there that you'd be much worse off there than here." What are conditions like for the average Indian programmer?

Re:What is the standard of living like?

[pantycrickets]

We hear conflicting reports from "$11,000 means you could live like a king" to "Material goods are so expensive there that you'd be much worse off there than here." What are conditions like for the average Indian programmer?

I would guess the opinion changes wether you are asking the tech worker, or the tech manager who is trying to negotiate new contracts with American companies. :)

Re:What is the standard of living like?

[ankur_ag]

The $11,000 on average for a programming job is a myth. On an average a fresh graduate out of a college gets between Rs. 200,000 to 300,000 ($1= Rs.46 approx) . A senior programmer with experience earns between (Rs. 350,000 - 600,000) now thats closer or greater than $11,000. And remeber like USA we have an income tax on higher side (30 - 40%)

And for the living costs $11,000 does not makes you live like a king for the stats

1) An average flat with (2-3 rooms) costs between Rs.5,000 - Rs. 15,000) per month on rent. But these flats are still below par with what you would call an average flat in USA.

2) Buying a flat would cost you around (Rs. 1,000,000 - Rs 2,500,000 ) and thats average (as above ).

3) A car costs between Rs. 250,000 for a Maruti 800 (a 800 cc car with no frills not even an A/C )
to a Ford Ikon (a low end luxury car yeah we call it a luxury car ) for Rs. 500,000 and yeah they have a lot of other realy luxury cars like Mitsuibishi Lancer , Mercedes Benz but they are all out of reach of even a good earning programmer. Most programmers would generally own a two wheeler as the cost of running is low due to low petrol (oops gas) consumption (petrol is Rs. 36 / litre approx )

4) A music CD would cost around Rs. 100 to Rs. 300. A DVD for Rs. 400 Rs. 1,000.

5) A decent shirt would cost in excess of Rs. 500 and a decent pair of trousers arount Rs. 1,000.

6) Food costs are arount Rs. 50 - 100 if you cook at home or Rs. 75 - Rs.150 if u eat out. The cheapest coffee at Barrista (the most popular coffee shop chain here) costs Rs. 30.

7) And yeah a desktop costs around Rs. 30,000 for an economy machine to Rs. 50,000 for a decent one.

8) Telephone costs aroud Rs. 1,000 pm under basic use and Rs. 2,000 to Rs. 3,000 if u make more call or are using dialup internet connectivity (and 98% or so use it).
9) Broadband is either not available or if it costs around Rs. 2,000 pm with dload speeds of 20 kbps (yeah thats b-band in India).
There are other basic eminities but this can give an idea of living costs in India and yeah $11,000 gives you only a decent living below par a middle class in USA but its more than enough for an Indian as we are not as materialistic as the West and there are a lot more people earning a lot less than us.

Re:What is the standard of living like?

[infinite9]

...but its more than enough for an Indian as we are not as materialistic as the West ...

Of the Indians I've met, and that would be a lot by now, I'd say that Indians are the most materialistic people I've ever seen. My Indian neighbors' favorite pass-time is either keeping up with the Joneses or oneupmanship. They devour status symbols like candy. Maybe that has to do with who comes here vs Indians as a whole, but that's my observation from here in the US.

Re:What is the standard of living like?

[moosesocks]

Parent post converted to $USD

The $11,000 on average for a programming job is a myth. On an average a fresh graduate out of a college gets between Rs. $4426 to $6639 ($1= Rs.46 approx) . A senior programmer with experience earns between (Rs. $7745 - $13,278) . And remeber like USA we have an income tax on higher side (30 - 40%)

And for the living costs $11,000 does not makes you live like a king for the stats

1) An average flat with (2-3 rooms) costs between $22. - $332) per month on rent. But these flats are still below par with what you would call an average flat in USA.

2) Buying a flat would cost you around (Rs. $22,133- $55,332 ) and thats average (as above ).

3) A car costs between Rs. $5,533 for a Maruti 800 (a 800 cc car with no frills not even an A/C )
to a Ford Ikon (a low end luxury car yeah we call it a luxury car ) for $11,067 and yeah they have a lot of other realy luxury cars like Mitsuibishi Lancer , Mercedes Benz but they are all out of reach of even a good earning programmer. Most programmers would generally own a two wheeler as the cost of running is low due to low petrol (oops gas) consumption (petrol is Rs. 36 / litre approx )

4) A music CD would cost around $2.25 to $7. A DVD for $8.85
5) A decent shirt would cost in excess of Rs. $11 and a decent pair of trousers arount Rs. $22.

6) Food costs are arount Rs. $5 - $10 if you cook at home or $1.66 - $3 if u eat out. The cheapest coffee at Barrista (the most popular coffee shop chain here) costs Rs. $0.66

7) And yeah a desktop costs around $664 for an economy machine to $1,107 for a decent one.

8) Telephone costs aroud $22 pm under basic use and $44 to $66 if u make more call or are using dialup internet connectivity (and 98% or so use it).
9) Broadband is either not available or if it costs around Rs. $44 pm with dload speeds of 20 kbps (yeah thats b-band in India).
There are other basic eminities but this can give an idea of living costs in India and yeah $11,000 gives you only a decent living below par a middle class in USA but its more than enough for an Indian as we are not as materialistic as the West and there are a lot more people earning a lot less than us.

The US called.... they want their jobs back.

[Stupid White Man]

Are they hiring? I'll gladly get up and move there if it means a steady job doing something I love, for a decent rate. Do they hire stupid white men? I'm available immediately.

Re:The US called.... they want their jobs back.

[cubicledrone]

I'll gladly get up and move there if it means a steady job doing something I love, for a decent rate.

No such thing, at least not in the "corporate culture."

Re:The US called.... they want their jobs back.

[buckeyeguy]

Do they hire stupid white men? I'm available immediately.

Oh, so you're on the management track, then?

Where do you live?

[charnov]

The Starbucks employess where I live make about $24K per year on average (along with partial benefits). Why do you think those lattes cost $4?

Re:Where do you live?

[Dr Caleb]

Why do you think those lattes cost $4?

Because most people wouldn't know good coffee if it fell steaming hot into their lap. Starbucks can charge that much because people think it's good or elite or yuppie or something. I'll take my $1.00 cup of Timmies over the breath-freshner-for-people-who-eat-shit that Starbucks sells anyday.

Re:Where do you live?

[cubicledrone]

The Starbucks employess where I live make about $24K per year on average (along with partial benefits)

Shit wage. Fragrant, running, sticky shit.

Starbucks has spent approx. $60 million in a year to open new stores (hundreds at a time) while their employees are paid shit, have shit schedules, shit benefits, shit working conditions, shit advancement, shit opportunities, etc.

Re:Where do you live?

[the arbiter]

Total bullshit. If you live in the Bay Area or New York City, a Starbucks assistant manager makes $24,000-$26,000 a year.

The grunts working the line make minimum wage, with perhaps a dollar an hour in tips on top of that. Minimal benefits kick in at 20 hours a week. The clientele I wouldn't wish on anyone.

I'm a proud former Starbucks employee, free as of March 2003. Worst job I've ever had.

Re:Where do you live?

[cubicledrone]

It's a coffee shop for Pete's sake !

So what? People used to earn a full-time living running bakeries, cafes, newsstands, small hardware stores. Do you have any idea how much money the average Starbucks makes in a week?

You work there while you're young and if you want advancement opportunities, you look for another job outside the coffee shop arena.

Like where? Do you realize that one HALF of the working population is now either:

1) Employed part-time

2) A temp

3) Unemployed

4) Out of the work force completely (gave up trying to find a job)

ONE HALF. So where do we go to find the "good jobs" again? There AIN'T NO MORE GOOD JOBS.

Starbucks pay and benefits are actually better than any other coffee shops out there.

Whew. Makes you want to drop to one knee and weep openly.

an unusually good company to its employees.

Except that they pay shit.

Re:Where do you live?

[Rucker]

Please provide a link to substantiate your 1/2 number. I'd love to the see analysis.

Re:Where do you live?

[cubicledrone]

It's a coffee shop for Pete's sake !

Starbucks had net revenues (1999) of $423 million QUARTERLY. Just a coffee shop, though, nothing to see here.

By the way, they employ 71,000 people, SIXTY THOUSAND OF WHOM are part-time. Even if they make $24,000 a year (which they don't), it is still a shit wage. Try qualifying for a mortgage on $24,000 a year.

Re:Where do you live?

[cubicledrone]

Bureau of Labor Statistics, 1997

Working-age adults:

Combined unemployed, self-employed, temprorary and part-time workers: approx. 40M or 18.9% of eligible workers.

Not in the work force, approximately 60M or 33% of eligible workers.

Total: 51.9%

Which means fewer than 50% of working-age adults were holding down full-time, permanent jobs. And this was in 1997, when the economy was doing rather well, if I recall.

Re:Where do you live?

[gcaseye6677]

I'd be curious to see where you get these 'one half' numbers from. And what country are you talking about?

Re:Where do you live?

[charnov]

Indianapolis...average wage for Starbucks employee is $10 an hour.

Managers can make over $17 per hour.

And I agree, their coffee approaches sewage in quality. I prefer my "Three Peckered Billy Goat" from Ravens Brew.

Re:Where do you live?

[cheezedawg]

So, comrade, what is your solution (besides sitting around waiting for the proletariat to revolt)?

Starbucks has built a business that is profitable. They provide a product that people want and charge a price that people are willing to pay. They don't have any problems finding employees that are willing to work for the wages that they offer. There is nothing wrong with this.

Re:Where do you live?

[Anonymous Coward]

Your number includes stay at home parents as well.

No one gives a damn about employment of the working age population.

We only care about those are are actually SEEKING employment. Thus, REAL unemployment is only 5.7%, a comparably low number with regards to historical trends.

Saying that there "aint no more good jobs" just further solidifies the evidence that you are completely ignorant of economies, economic growth, and the labor market.

Re:Where do you live?

[sloptaco]

Like where? Do you realize that one HALF of the working population is now either:
...
4) Out of the work force completely (gave up trying to find a job)

Wait a second here! That doesn't make any sense at all. Are you talking about the Groucho club or something. Not to argue, though. Times are obviously bad in terms of getting a job. But your statistics sound fuzzy.

--sloppy

Re:Where do you live?

[cubicledrone]

By the way, this earth shattering number of 50% is because traditionally, only 1 parent in the family has worked to support the family.

Yeah, 40 years ago.

The fact remains. Only half have permanent full-time jobs.

Re:Where do you live?

[Anonymous Coward]

No- the fact is that only half need or are looking for permanent full-time jobs. The numbers you are quoting HAVE NO MEANING.

The Bureau of Labor releases a meaningful number that represents the number of people that actually want/need a job, but are unable to find one. That number just dropped to 5.6%.

Re:Where do you live?

[cubicledrone]

employment of the working age population.

Except the people who can't find a job.

We only care about those are are actually SEEKING employment.

Well, you know what they say about statistics. Nice way to ignore 45% of the population.

Saying that there "aint no more good jobs" just further solidifies the evidence that you are completely ignorant of economies, economic growth, and the labor market.

Oh, I'm perfectly aware of the economy. I get a full briefing every 1st of the month. There are no more good jobs. There just aren't. The fact remains, by the way. Only 1/2 of eligible workers have permanent full-time jobs.

I wonder what that number was 50 years ago? I know for a fact that my in parents' generation, the average time worked at a single job was 27-34 years.

Currently, I know precisely one person who has been employed full-time for more than two years.

One person.

Re:Where do you live?

[cubicledrone]

the fact is that only half need

Really. So now we have statistics that tell us what people need?

are looking for permanent full-time jobs.

No. The number measures temporary, self-employed and part-time workers too. I'll give them self-employed, because at least those people have some chance of a living wage.

But the fact that we had ONE HUNDRED MILLION unemployed, part-time, temporary, self-employed or "didn't want a job" people in the middle of the greatest economic expansion in decades is incredible. That those people outnumbered permanent full-time employees is even more incredible.

The numbers you are quoting HAVE NO MEANING.

Fine, then ignore it.

Re:Where do you live?

[cheezedawg]

Ok- as other people have pointed out, you are trying to read more meaning into those numbers than is actually there. Our unemployment rate is 5.6%, and while this is not a perfect measurement, that is the closest estimate that we have of the people that are actually looking for jobs and cant find them. And while 5.6% isn't anything to get excited about, historically we have had much worse.

Re:Where do you live?

[cubicledrone]

Things change. Learn to deal with it.

"You can't earn a living. Learn to deal with it."

"Your education is meaningless. Learn to deal with it."

"You don't qualify for a mortgage. Learn to deal with it."

"You can't afford food. Learn to deal with it."

"You don't get benefits. Learn to deal with it."

"Your experience and knowledge are useless. Learn to deal with it."

"We're laying off everyone in the department. Learn to deal with it."

"Even if your kids go to college, nobody will care if they graduate. Learn to deal with it."

"Your kids will never own a home of their own. Learn to deal with it."

"There are no opportunities for advancement here. Learn to deal with it."

Sound familiar?

Re:Where do you live?

[Ranger96]

Your interpretation of these stats are a bit off. Note that these are percentages of 'working-age adults'. My wife is a working-age adult, and she would be counted in that 33% of eligible workers who are not in the work force. However, this is by choice, so she can stay at home with our kids, not becuase she has "given up" finding a job.

Some portion of both groups are there by a choice that has nothing to do with their not being able to find "full time" work.

Ranger96

Re:Where do you live?

[Ranger96]

But the fact that we had ONE HUNDRED MILLION unemployed, part-time, temporary, self-employed or "didn't want a job" people in the middle of the greatest economic expansion in decades is incredible.

You're right, that is incredible. In a lot of cases that 1 employed person could earn enough to support a family. Seems to me to be a sign of a healthy economy.

Ranger96

Re:Where do you live?

[cubicledrone]

Yes, and these statistics tell us that only 5.7% of the people that need a job don't have one.

Until their unemployment runs out. Then it doesn't tell us anything.

Re:Where do you live?

[gamgee5273]

Interesting thing, though, is that Starbucks offers medical benefits for its employees working over 30/week.

How many other part time employers do that? I have a couple of laid-off friends who have been able to land a job at Starbucks and somewhere else and aren't worried about benefits.

Oh, and another friend who makes $20K a year just got approved for a mortgage. It's a question of what you can afford on a monthly basis, not how much you make. If you have no debt an make $20K a year you're ahead of the person making $40K a year and pays $25K of that to credit cards, student loans, etc.

Re:Where do you live?

[cubicledrone]

is that worth 40k a year?

It's worth 423 MILLION a quarter, almost 2 BILLION a year. Is it worth it? I don't know. Should Starbucks sales be worth nine figures quarterly? It's JUST FUCKING COFFEE RIGHT??

The smart employees will be using their job at starbucks to subsidize living costs while they are in college so that they can get a better job later on.

Where? How about Starbucks corporate office? Oh wait, out of 71,000 employees, only 11,000 get to have "better jobs." Everyone else is fucked. Oh, well. Back to the fake want ads.

Re:Where do you live?

[MightyZug]

I have no clue where you were working, but in NYC, starbucks grunts made $8-$10 starting, with somewhat regular increases as time goes on and your doing your job. This is what i was told when i applied and i have several friends who worked there and had no complaints except that they never wanted to touch coffee again.

Re:Where do you live?

[cubicledrone]

why are you so angry that Starbucks makes a profit?

I'm not angry they make a profit. I think that's great. What I'm angry with is that the contributions of their employees are belittled as unskilled and worth very little. If the business can generate $400 million a quarter in net revenue there is no reason to believe that the people who earn the company that money shouldn't share in the success by earning a LIVING WAGE. Part-time, half-assed bullshit $8 an hour jobs are not a living wage.

But judging from these posts of yours, you feel you are somehow entitled to live great no matter what choices you make in life. What a great attitude.

I'm entitled to a living wage if my work earns my employer a fuckload of money. Period.

It's very convenient (and profitable) for an employer to arbitrarily declare my experience, education and skills worthless. I was gainfully employed every single day from the time I was old enough to work until three years ago. Now, I couldn't buy a job with a coupon.

They make $400 million a quarter, and they pay $8 an hour, part-time, shit benefits, shit hours, shit advancement, shit opportunity. But that's ok, right?

Re:Where do you live?

[Torinaga-Sama]

Starbucks is retail/food service heaven.

The shifts are crappy, true. But with the growth they have experienced it is not difficult to advance.

When I was a Shift Supervisor there back in 99 I was probably averaging about $10/hr, plus benefits and stock options (which would actualy be worth quite a bit now (at least double my strike price), had taken a slight paycut to go and work at an ISP where my option would be worth approximatly -$23 a share now had I stayed.)

I was still in college. Life was not too bad. Most people are pretty nice to you and almost all of the customers were regulars. It's one of the few "crap jobs" I look back on fondly.

Re:Where do you live?

[workindev]

I'm entitled to a living wage if my work earns my employer a [bunch] of money. Period.

No, you are entitled to quit your job at Starbucks if you don't like the wages you earn. Nobody is forcing you to work there, you know. You are entitled to open your own coffee shop right across the street and to pay your employees $40/hr. But you most certainly are not entitled to demand an above market wage for a job that has an almost endless line of college students and teens willing to take the same job for only $8 per hour.

They make $400 million a quarter, and they pay $8 an hour, part-time, shit benefits, shit hours, shit advancement, shit opportunity. But that's ok, right?

Of course its okay. If it were not okay, nobody would want to work for them any more, and they would be forced to raise their wages until people did want to work for htem. But the fact that they have no problem finding people who will work for their current wage shows that they apparently pay enough for some people to accept the work.

Re:Where do you live?

[Rucker]

I don't think you have a clue about labor statistics. From the Bureau of Labor Statistics website:

Unemployed persons: All persons who had no employment during the reference week, were available for work, except for temporary illness, and had made specific efforts to find employment some time during the 4 week-period ending with the reference week. Persons who were waiting to be recalled to a job from which they had been laid off need not have been looking for work to be classified as unemployed.

Here is more information including the collection methods.

Morale higher ?

[88NoSoup4U88]

Besides the reasons for outsourcing obviously being cutting costs : Do you think that the working morale in India would be 'better' than in the US ?

No offense to the US IT , but I think that the eastern mentality towards working/bosses are a bit more serious than in the US/Europe.

Education in India

[killmeplease]

I find it interesting that us American programmers are so elitist. Most think that your education and creativity must be less than the American whos job you are stealing. I find this trite and rude. When I was in college in California we had Indian programmers who were excellent programmers. They were educated in the UK English system with excellent math and computer teaching. I know that India is a 3rd world country and many students travel abroad to get a quality education. How would you rate the Indian universities and programming vocational schools for preparing programmers to be great at their jobs when compared to their US counterparts?

Re:Education in India

[be-fan]

I don't live in India, but I've got some understanding of the Indian school system. From what I can tell, its very much a British-style system. That means a whole lot of very rigerous study in mathematics and science. Not a huge percentage of people get to go to the best schools, but numerically, that makes for a lot of people with a good education.

PS> As someone who has endured the US education system from kindergarten, I have to say it sucks. In K-12, students learn nothing useful. The just learn about Native Americans over and over. "Guess and check" is taught a a legitimate way of solving math problems! There are some islands of good teaching (certain GT schools, some private schools, for example) but their success lies in the fact that their teachers essentially ignore the standard cirriculum. For example, my brother's math teacher uses a geometry book from the 1980s, because he believes that math books since then have just been pretty picture books. A couple of times a week, he assigns two or three extremely difficult problems that take hours to complete. And that style, though rigerous, certainly gets results! Things get much better in the excellent US University system (if you go to a good school, that is) but often freshman year of college is just spent trying to undo the brain-damage inflicted by the K-12 system.

Just Wait...

[H8X55]

Ask 'em what they'll think when corporations find someone even cheaper to take their jobs. Look out for the Ugandan Techies in 2020! Seriously, though, eventually the bottom will fall out in India too. India is hungry at the moment, but their scale of economy will steepen over time, and somewhere else will be the next Delphi.

Re Labor Conditions

[cluckshot]

I would like to ask what sort of contract is usual and customary for employment there. What penalties do you suffer if you take work and then have to leave or choose to leave early?

What sort of Agency Fees are usual for taking work?

What Overtime, Sick leave and Vacation terms to you generally get?

What is your level of INCOME TAX on your wages? How much of your wages go to support the Elderly, Infirm etc (Social Security Type Taxes)

What sort of Retirement Benefits do you get?

Whad does your employer have to do if he lays you off or lets you go from employment?

How much does your country pay as a percentage of its Domestic Product to Defense Costs? How about Welfare/Social Benefits Costs?

When your kids go to school do you have to buy their School Books? Does the School System provide bus transport to school? Does your School System provide Internet Hookup for the kids?

What kind of National System do you have to support the Hurt and Injured Workers in your country? What level of care do they get? What kind of Pension do they get?

When floods or famine take an area, does your nation provide for the rebuilding of the homes and businesses? Are your rivers generally well controlled to avoid catastrophic flooding?

What is the condition of repair of your roads? How many miles(Km fine) of roads to you have paved in your country?

How much money does your government spend on Research and Development of new technology?

If someone reading this doesn't get the point about the great differences between the US and India they are blind. I will let the Indian answers speak for themselves generally. The simple fact is that if Americans chose open competition with India without trade barriers, they will find their system of retirement and benefits for the community essentially looted out by India. The reason is simple. India has 1% retirement load and no real system to handle it. The USA has 30% and an expensive System to handle it. To make the USA compete head to head here is like trying to run a foot race with a hot shot college kid when you are 45! It doesn't matter how good you were, you are not going to win against the young athlete.

The USA is in a Trade War, not with India but with a Government who is determined to sabotage the US Worker by forcing him to markup his labor more than 150% (a lot more than that but this is the first cut) while expecting him to hold his own against those who don't support either their own defense adequately or the social support of the USA. Sorry but it is true! The Trade War is by the US Congress against the American People. India is not to blame.

So I now go on to a few more questions

When you go to work and train to use the M$ tools on the job, how much do you pay for your access to software and updates? Americans pay about $2,000 a year!

How much do you pay for M$ latest XP version and .Net?

How much does a computer cost you to set up and begin learning to use it?

The point here~ is that M$ and others are setting these people up to compete against Americans selling them Software on their "market" prices rather than ours. We often pay as much in the USA as 10 times or more for the same tools

This is something we all need to be aware of because this is what is destroying the US Market. For Indians who think they are winning, they are not. When this ends up with the USA losing its IT business, India may have it but the money will not be there because the US Market will be damaged. It is not in the interest of India or the US what is going on

Re:Re Labor Conditions

[RetroGeek]

If you're 45 and your skills and productivity can't compete with someone fresh out of college, you deserve to be fired.

Not quite true.

My skill set allows me to do many things. But, when I was looking for work, the responses I got was "you are too senior" and "this job is too simple for you". There was also the salary difference between a seasoned developer and a newbie. Heck, at the time I would have taken the job at the salary. Thank god things are different now.

Throw in the HR department pechant for versionitis and finding a job was NOT a simple thing.

BTW, versionitis is where you must know the EXACT version of some language or tool, such as JSEE 1.4.1. Never mind that you know 1.4.0. Never mind that you can LEARN. You need to have the exact specific version on all the required languages and tools.

Yeah, this is a rant....

Re:Re Labor Conditions

[Gr8Apes]

...thats upto 25% of that persons monthly salary!!! And still you complain they sell it for cheap???

Yes. It's not a percentage issue, but a total cost issue.

If the costs were the same, 1 of 2 things would happen: either labor costs would go up, or there would be fewer workers available, as there would be fewer "trained" workers out there. Either one would be better for the world economy than the discounted system currently in place which promotes an unfair playing field and effectively torpedoes those who do not get the "discount".

Outsourcing/Business Contacts

[N8F8]

Where can American businessmen go to get good outsourcing contacts or contacts for Indians and Pakistanis interested with teaming up with Americans on business projects? On the web China seems the most accessible.

Re:Outsourcing/Business Contacts

[aacool]

The leading IT outsourcers in India include Infosys - the best, Wipro, TCS and Cognizant-check them out using google

free software in india...

[kevin lyda]

every country has it's own free software projects (that they are either started or maintain or fund). the usa can point to the gnu project, finland to linux, ireland to spamassassin, germany to gpg, wales to kernel hacking and gnome bug hunting and translations, etc.

i think there's a lack of visability in english-speaking countries as to the contributions from non-english speaking countries. what free software projects are "indian" that those of us in the english speaking world might not be aware of?

Re:free software in india...

[net_bh]

can you really say that the USA funds the GNU project? Just because it was founded here?

From India: There are atleast two that I know of: Anjuta, libyahoo2

Re:free software in india...

[kevin lyda]

i suppose i phrased that badly. i mainly meant that people from those countries did those things. obviously there are some gov't funded bits - the us dod funded bits of bsd, germany funded gpg, the eu is funding blender. but it was more the people from each country.

thanks for the project. i've used some yahoo clients so thanks india! :)

Re:free software in india...

[dodobh]

http://www.indlinux.org/
One of them.

Re:free software in india...

[Argon]

Mostly localization projects. See IndLinux for an example. Considering that there are more than 14 widely spoken Indian languages, obviously there are many more independent efforts out there for each language out there.

There are no well known software projects that are truly "Indian" like Linux or spamassasin. Indian developers are involved in many of these projects of course including kernel hacking, GNOME, KDE etc - for example, I am a Debian developer - but I am sorry to say that I cannot pick a high-profile (non localization related) open source project and say that yeah, this is an "Indian" project.

By the way, don't think of India as "non-english" speaking. All Indian programmers are by necessity english speaking. Considering that programmers from all over India come and work in a single office it's not practical for us to be speaking in our native languages at office. We get good english education from primary school and that's our primary medium of communication at work; and the only medium of communication for anything technical.

Re:free software in india...

[kevin lyda]

localisation projects are impressive. that's hard work. particularly when dealing with charsets outside of us-ascii! and particularly when you cover 14 languages!

someone pointed out that libyahoo was done by indian programmers. with all the outsourcing, i wonder if there are some distributed whiteboard projects and the like being done.

Re:free software in india...

[Argon]

I am not aware of any such distributed whiteboard projects being done (I am happy with IRC :-). However, I forgot to mention about one outsourcing benefit for open source. Novell developers in India work on Mono, GNOME and OpenOffice. Obviously, they get paid for working on them but "cheaper" Indian developers contributing to open source software can only be a good thing :-). I am jealous :-).

Re:free software in india...

[trinetra]

what free software projects are "indian" that those of us in the english speaking world might not be aware of?

The Free Software Foundation has an Indian affiliate. You can find a list of Indian contributions to free software at the FSF India website.

My Question for them.

[wturky]

I think we all tend to complain when we call someone at tech support and they end up being in another country and have a low grasp of the English language, therefore making it very hard to communicate with them....so, what I want to ask is if the tech support/help desk people over there get as annoyed with the language barrier as WE do? Is it as frustrating to them that they can't get the point across to us as it is us to them?

And I think we all know that they get calls from the morons that WE hate getting calls from too, so I'm just wondering how much WORSE that goes over when there's a language barrier to make it even harder. (How DO you explain that the cup holder isn't really a cup holder when you don't know what a cup holder even is?? :)

How much to do my job?

[FirstTimeCaller]

So how much would it cost me to hire them to do my job? Of course, this would have to be hush hush. They would report directly to me... no need to know who I work for...

Language differences

[jmckell]

Several people have brought out cultural differences between the US and India. However, I would like to ask about language. Based upon my personal experiences with call centers and such, I am aware that this can be a problem.

Does learning US English present a problem, or is that just one more set of classes that must be taken?

Does the ability to speak US english set one apart (is it more valuable to an employer) from other employment candidates, or is that only for those who deal with North Americans?

Do non-english speakers have issues (like, dislike) with english speakers?

Is there a difference between learning US english and UK english, both? or does it matter?

How early does one begin to learn english as a second language? (The european model is to begin around the seventh, eighth year of schooling, I think...)

Re:Language differences

[Mantorp]

Tech TV had a show on where call center workers were also tackling Australian English. I wonder which is hardest to understand for them: Scottish, Kiwi, US Southern, Australian, Jamaican, etc.?

I grew up in Sweden and we started English in the 3rd grade, most people would pick a second foreign language in 7th grade, typically German or French. Many also added a third and even fourth foreign language in 10th grade.

I've now lived in the US for 15 years so to fit in I've made sure to forget all of them except Spanish.

Does it work?

[mcmonkey]

One of the arguments for free trade and the internationalization of companies and the work force is the raising of living standards around the world--the rising tide lifts all ships.

The argument against is that companies in the USA out-source and move off-shore to save money--increasing profits by paying less in wages and widening the gap between rich and poor.

From the USA it's pretty clear that whatever the intent, the result is the later. Ford doesn't build in China so Chinese workers can earn enough to buy Fords; Ford builds in China to make more profit on cars it sells in North America and Europe. (To be fair, the American worker complains about jobs moving over seas, then goes to WalMart and insists on $10 shirts and fresh tomatoes year round.)

So how do things look on the other side? Is the Indian standard of living raised by this influx of foreign work, or do companies pay just enough to be competitive to the existing standard and keep the benefits of free trade at the top?

Re:Does it work?

[TheSync]

Indian IT wages rise 14%.

New Indian Startup Companies

[blueZhift]

I'd like to know how long it will be before Indian tech professionals start forming startup companies to compete directly with their American corporate masters using what they have learned from them.

The Indians are not stupid. They know that it's just a matter of time before the tech jobs go to the next lowest bidder. And just as British imperial domination was thrown off, so will American corporate domination. The American companies that have rushed to offshore outsourcing would be wise not to underestimate the power of nationalism.

Re:New Indian Startup Companies

[_type_linux_]

Dude, it has already started. There are already a few high-tech startups like Kritikal Solutions that have sprung out of top Indian schools like the IITs. And mind you, these are not just any outsourcing companies doing some java programming. These are companies developing cutting edge technology. So what you say might soon become a reality!

Does the Indian 'caste' system affect your job ?

[openSoar]

From friends and colleagues I know a little bit about the caste system in India - both in terms of it's positive and negative discrimination so I wondered what sort of effect if any does this have on your work? For instance, a lot of software is developed in teams - are there sensitive issues to resolve if different members of the team are from different castes ?

Questions

[Sanga]

1) Do you (developer) find any communication problems with your customers? How much is the variance between your understanding and what the customer wants? What is the amount of face time/interaction do you have during the project?

2) What is the typical lifecycle of a project? Do you have some feedback system to improve quality and processes?

3) What are the hoops you have to jump through (SEI certifications and the lot) to prove your competence? Is it any use at the end of the day?

(more than one question posted since this isn't a traditional interview. And outsourcers should work 3 times harder, dammit!! :-) )

Re:Questions

[rpillala]

But there's the problem right there. Indians don't use the same idioms as (say) Americans. A lot of the time, that's the entire communication gap. Phrases like "face time" and "at the end of the day" aren't standard across cultures. It's also true in the other direction. I talk to my relatives about teaching (which isn't especially valued in India; education is, but not teaching) and and they use the word "doubt" where I would say "question." These don't even mean the same thing.

My visits to my relatives in India taught me this and I still have a hard time speaking English with them. That's not to mention my American accent and slurring of words and syllables. The funny thing is that while I realize that I have such an accent, it never occurred to my relatives that they have an accent when they speak English.

Ravi

There is a bright side

[heironymouscoward]

This is not a question for the Indian techies but rather a comment about the many angry and distressed comments about outsourcing.

First, outsourcing is not new. Every great industry has been built on the ruins of another, somewhere else. Textiles, agriculture, automobiles, shipbuilding, steel,... we've always seen jobs move to where they cost less.

Secondly, although this always hurts those losing their jobs, it almost always brings much greater benefits back than those jobs would keep. Example: without the cheap Asian ships and cheap third-world sailors who man them, everything you buy would cost much more.

Thirdly, there is nothing quite as stimulating as the collapse of one industry to create new ones. Do you really wish you worked in a coal mine? Much of software production has become so routine and monotonous that it's the modern equivalent of industrial labour. There is a reason why these jobs can be done more cheaply, and it's only partly because the Indian workforce is cheap. It's also because the very jobs have become banal.

Consider China, the factory of the world, sending its goods to every country and region of the world. China, which is today the world's second largest importer of goods and services. Instead of trying to compete with a Chinese DVD player at $15, consider that Rolex sells more real solid gold $15,000 watches in China than in any other country.

The rise of the Indian technical support industry should be seen as a sign of hope: thousands, millions of new customers for the leading-edge products that you should be capable of designing and delivering.

Trade is not a pie that you slice and share. It's a reaction that needs constant movement to keep active and grow. Every new Indian job means new opportunities and jobs here in the US as well. It just takes imagination and drive to make it happen.

Well, I do have one question for our Indian colleagues: how do you feel about the bitching that most Westerners show when asked about Indian IT? I mean, presumably you studied hard and feel that you're allowed to compete fairly on an open market?

Re:Questions...

[The Night Watchman]

I'm assuming this is not a serious post...

1. How's it feel being detested by most of an entire industry back in the US of A (with the exception of the bean counters) ?

I'm a developer in the US, and I still have my job, but I'm having a hard time finding a software job in the geographic area where I want to move. But I don't detest the Indian people, nor do I feel that they've "stolen a job" from me. They're people like us. They want to make a living, they want to provide for themselves and their families, they want what most of us want. Jobs are available, and they're taking them. It's not like they're gathering together in some secret clubhouse buried under a cavern in the Himalayas and plotting how to make Americans' lives miserable. The reason this is happening is because of globalization, and personally, I still haven't decided if I think it's a good thing or not. I'm not going to have the knee-jerk reaction of "Of course it's bad", because the fact is, monetarily speaking, one of me is worth about four top-notch Indian developers. At the same time, though, enrollment in CS and engineering in US schools is plummeting, with the exception of foreign students. Globalization is great until relations break down between us and the country where our talent pool lives.

So speaking as an American programmer whose current livelihood is threatened by globalization, I can say that I hold no grudge against India, Russia, China, or any other country whose citizens are no less human than I am, and whose governments have the same capacity for corruption as my own. My job is marginally safer, since I work for a defense contractor. But it's just a matter of time before my job goes away too, and I'm willing to change careers if I have to. Sure, I could rail against India and American CEOs and bean counters, but that won't put food on my table.

---

Re:I've got a few...

[DR SoB]

1. No. 2. We've looked up to Americans for years. It feels wonderful to finally enjoy the same rights. Driving down conditions for the Western world, well, how does the western world feel about the conditions in Iraq? Or even India for that matter?? 3. Yes. Start making cheap clothing and drugs again, unlike you Amercians, we are already use to being poor, so it's no big deal..

US dependence

[Tablizer]

Do you feel that your IT career depends too much on US companies and the US economy? Do you feel that your country's economic policies should instead focus on local business, local infrastructure, etc? Or, do you feel US dependence is part of the "growing process" that will lead later to more self-sufficiency?

Education Costs

[dachshund]

More specifically:

How much does an Indian college education cost the typical student? Is it government subsidized, or are students expected to pick up the entire cost? And how does that cost compare to the average yearly salary of a college-educated technology worker (ie, how long does it take you to pay of college debt?)

Re:Education Costs

[bronto001]

How much does an Indian college education cost the typical student? Is it government subsidized, or are students expected to pick up the entire cost? And how does that cost compare to the average yearly salary of a college-educated technology worker (ie, how long does it take you to pay of college debt?) I am an Indian. and an Engineer. Lets look at: Engineering: I did my 4 years engineering by paying a total of Rs.26,000 ( Medical: Rs.250,000 (ManagamentThe top most Mgmt schools used to cost Rs.150,000/year till last week. Now, it costs Rs.30,000pa. There has been a huge outcry over that cut. I personally believe that the cut was unwarranted, given that starting salary for a guy from these schools will be not less than Rs.600,000 pa. Debt? what debt? Most Indians wouldn't take loans for their education. It would usually sponsored by the parents. Loans are taken by people who go abroad(read US) to study.

Re:Education Costs

[ek-1000-ek]

I studied for 6 yrs. I paid INR 12,000 per year. I finished in '99. We maid INR 500 each month for food. We lived in hostel and paid INR 500 for that. I lived far from my home and traveled back if college for off for more than 6 days (it took 5 days to and fro). Each trip costed INR 300 with almost 50% student concession from Indian Railways. The queue for reservation was long (2-4 hrs) and so was journeys. We usually took book to read and typically 5-6 people traveled together so we used to talk a lot too.

What about moving here?

[TJ_Phazerhacki]

How practical is it for you to move to the us? from what I hear about quality of life there, cost of living, ect, it seems to me that it would be in your best interests to come here. Better pay, higher standard of living, schools, whatever.

Re:What about moving here?

[rueba]

OK, I am not an Indian but as a foreigner I can answer this.

It is rather difficult to move straight from a foreign country to come work in the US.

There are basically two general ways to go about it:

(1) Family reunification: If your mom,dad, brother, sister, children or wife are American you can apply for US Permanent Resident status(aka Green Card). Obviously most foreigners don't have such family connections and hence are in no position to use this provision of the law.

(2)Employer sponsorship of (H1B | L1 | Green card):
An American company has to apply on your behalf for you to get one of these documents( which are significantly different but they all basically allow you to work).

Now suppose you live in Delhi. How are you going to convince an American company in say, Seattle to sponsor you for H1B when they have never even met you? (Each sponsorship takes quite a bit of time and legal effort on the company's part). Not easy.

This is all significantly easier if you are already in the US for some other reason like studying because at least the employer can get to know you through summer internships and such and hence might consider the effort of sponsoring you.

Another option is to try and get a job at an American subsidiary(e.g Microsoft India) then hope to get transferred to the states. Not easy.

So in general it is not that easy for a foreigner to legally come and work in the US without going through a rather roundabout method.(i.e grad school-> interning->H1B->green card)

Disclaimer: I've glossed over the details of the various visas and legalities, but I believe this is how things generally work.

Re:What about moving here?

[Oopsz]

Quite honestly, when it comes to india, you can't equate average standard of living with the standard of living enjoyed by gainfully employed professionals.

People can live a quite lavish lifestyle by american standards, send their children to excellent schools, and enjoy all the benefits of western civilization without leaving behind their culture. Many do.

Tantric geek sex

[mnemotronic]

I would like to learn the path to code density enlightenment via tantric sex. Are there any facilities in India to help me learn this practice (or practice this practice). Note: I'm willing to put in many hours per day on this.....

Opportunities for Promotion

[chromasoma]

It seems as if I always hear of American management being exported to handle outsourced projects. What kind of opportunity for vertical mobility does that leave for Indian employees? Is there a "glass ceiling" that prevents you from reaching senior programmer, project manager or other leadership positions? Are all your supervisors and bosses Westerners or do some of you work for other native employees? Does this situation cause any resentment, and if so, have you considered or do you know of any that are planning becoming entrepreneurs? Lastly, what kind of resources are provided by Indian government to promote the growth of entrepreneurial business such as grants, loans or tax breaks?

How well/badly are Indian techies regarded there?

[JaredOfEuropa]

Something I noticed over here in the west: respect for techies has been dropping. Now I don't mean respect in the workplace, but respect from society at large... Engineering used to be a very respectable profession, but these days it's seen as something strictly for oddball nerds. That overused line from the movies has come back to haunt those that enroll into a technical university: "Son, you could have been a doctor or a lawyer".

What's it like in India? Apart from making a decent wage, do people look up to engineers, or are they dismissed as nerds?

Innovation

[romman666_07920]

So far it would seem that the majority of IT work US companies have outsourced to India has focused on business support functions. The real innovation (product development, R&D) is still done in the US. Do you think Indian technology companies will try to be competitive in this area as well?

Re:Why are so many Indians in American CS programs

[be-fan]

Its a cultural thing. Indian culture glorifies engineering and math study. American popular culture actively discourages it. It makes perfect sense, thus, that there would be a higher percentage of Indians in engineering and CS.

Resentment or Networking Opporunity?

[yintercept]

The international reaction to H1-B was the first question on my mind as well. How many people came back from the US with a great deal of resentment?

On the other hand, I suspect that a good number of people came back from the US with a black book full of contacts, a project or two and perhaps a little seed money.

Answers

[siliconeyes]

You know, Slashdot does have quite a sizeable Indian community, though you might not be aware of it. So you might think about asking the questions here itself!

I am an Indian and currently working for Tata Consultancy Services Ltd., India's largest software company that recently exceeded 1 billion dollars in revenue. Right now I am stationed in South America from where we cater to most of the Latin American countries. I'm pretty much the typical 'target' of most of the American outsourcing anger that gets vented here on /.. Anyway, now that I'm done introducing myself let me see if I can answer some of the highest moderated questions.

How do you feel about the American programmers that are angry they lost their jobs to outsourcing? Do you think they have a right to be angry?

The way most Indians see it, this is mostly American capitalism biting them back in the ass. We do the same thing you do, but we do it at cheaper rates. Sure, we understand that Americans wouldn't be too happy about losing their high-paying jobs, but that is something they will just have to deal with.

Cost of living etc. in India, with emphasis on real estate etc.

Most people who start out in the Indian IT industry do not earn that well. On an average, I would say it is pretty much the same as what one would get after graduating from one of the other engineering disciplines like EE, CE etc. However, with a few years of experience one can get quite a comfortable job. For example, a typical IT worker with 3-4 years of experience can land themselves a job that pays about Rs. 40,000 per month (~ $1000). This is a good income in a country like India where you can have servants in your house for about Rs. 2,000 per month. AFAIK, there has been no study which studies the impact of these new IT jobs on the real estate market, but obviously some effect must be there.

Is the picture there as rosy as painted by the media?

I hate to say this on Slashdot, but it is actually quite good. Students from reputable colleges and universities do not find it difficult to find jobs in the IT sector. However, I would not agree that the degree does not matter. Most companies (the good ones anyway) are quite choosy about the people they pick.

How much experience do most Indian programmers have?

I would say ~5 years on an average. Agreed, there are a LOT of new people coming into the industry, attracted by the 'gold rush', but there are quite a few old veterans here as well. For example, my company is over 35 years old, and it is not uncommon to find people who have been here for the past 7-8 years.

American workers have certain legal protections that drive up the cost of our wages. Do Indians have similar protections in the workplace? Are you allowed to organize into unions? How long is your work week? What are your working conditions like? What kind of benifits do you have? Vacation? Medical? Dental? Profit sharing? Stock options? I find myself wondering, if the playing field were truly level, would your labor still be so inexpensive?

No, the story you hear about 'sweatshops' are not true. Yes, we do have benefits. No, there no unions, yet. A typical week is 40 hours (8x5), but almost always is more than that, depending on the work load. Sometimes people do work for 15 hours straight, but on other days they also go home after putting in their normal 8 hours. We have vacations and medical benefits. TCS itself is not a public company, so there are no stock options here, but other public companies do give the option to their employees. Labour is inexpensive primarily because of two reasons - there are a LOT of people in India, and the cost of living is quite low.

How does it feel to have your skills and knowledge continuously disparaged by people with little or no experience of working with Indian programmers?

Personally, it bothers me

Re:Answers

[Shajenko42]

I'm pretty much the typical 'target' of most of the American outsourcing anger that gets vented here on /..

As an American, I feel that this anger is misplaced, but understandable. I mean, when you're in the situation where it is nigh impossible to find a job (as I do), and you have a family to feed (which I don't), you're not going to be very rational.

And as it's been said, that in the long run this should be good for everyone, I'm reminded of a quote by Keynes: "In the long run, we're all dead."

The way most Indians see it, this is mostly American capitalism biting them back in the ass. Sure, we understand that Americans wouldn't be too happy about losing their high-paying jobs, but that is something they will just have to deal with.

Please understand that not everyone here believes in cutthroat pure capitalism, and most don't have much control over it.

Also, realize that companies are outsourcing because they can pay (relatively) low wages, while charging (relatively) high prices in the US. Now, since many of us no longer have our "high-paying" jobs, the market those companies are tapping into is disappearing. That means the affluence you are currently enjoying is temporary.

You state that an IT worker with 3-4 years of experience earns a salary of about $1000 per month. Assuming a 40 hour work week, that's not much higher than minimum wage in the US. It's definitely not a living wage, especially if you've got a family. So most of us weren't exactly spoiled rich with our previous salaries.

You may ask me questions as well,

[Srividya]

I am a programmer in Tirupathi, I work for a small but growing firm which programs business backend software for what is now two American companies.

-Srividya.

Re:You may ask me questions as well,

[Oopsz]

Good god, you're lucky. Tirumala is one of the most beautiful places on this earth.

Re:You may ask me questions as well,

[Srividya]

In order to be more responsive to our customers, we work at night on American time. It is not a bad arrangement for us, as we can provide very low "turnaround time".

Not at all Sir!

[univgeek]

We are all like that only!

Nah, it's just an accent, and if an accent and manaresim can be insulting to a billion people, then we are too thin-skinned.

Re:Not at all Sir!

[arglesnaf]

Ahh, ending the sentance in "only". Seems to be a Hindi / Marthi (sp) / Gudjrati (sp) thing. Several of my Fianace's cousing speak excellent english but always say "Only"

Re:Why should you get my job?

[be-fan]

Well, economics does say that minimum wages create unemployment, and voila, here it is :)

Education?

[tsvk]

Can you give some info and pointers about the CS/IT/telecom education in India, especially at unversity level? I'm interested in how qualified the tech sector workers are in India.

• How many people graduate from a (technical) university on an average? (As a fraction of all people born a certain year, for example.)
• Does the government subsidize university-level education in any way, or is a degree only possible to attain only if you are rich enough? What does a M.Sc. or B.Sc. degree cost you?
• What are the most prominent higher-level education universities in the technology sector? Homepage URLs? Do they specialize in any particular fields of technology?
• What's the teaching like, compared to curriculums in Eurpoe or the US? Are certain subjects and fields emphasized more or less?
• Are there any major differences in teaching methods? (lectures, homework, group projects, tuition by teaching assistants, etc.)
• Are those Indians that have graduated abroad (say in the US) more respected than people who have graduated from an Indian university? That is, how well are foreign degrees appreciated within India?
• What is the employment outlook and status in tech-sector jobs in India? Are many graduated engineers unemployed? Has the unemployment rate risen or fallen? What impact has the outsourcing of jobs to India had on the employment rates?

Re:Education?

[hostmaster]

Can you give some info and pointers about the CS/IT/telecom education in India, especially at unversity level? I'm interested in how qualified the tech sector workers are in India.

Qualifications and ability would be all over the map, like they are in every other field. The best are typically as good as the best anywhere else in the world.

How many people graduate from a (technical) university on an average? (As a fraction of all people born a certain year, for example.)

Very, very few. 35% of the population is illiterate (as per the 2001 census). India's Ministry of Education has some stats on primary/secondary education and on higher education (in Indian terminology a graduate degree is a Bachelors and a post-graduate degree is a Masters/Phd)

What you're looking for is the percentage of children graduating from high-school who enroll at a college. Using the census numbers, there were 157 million children under 6 years of age. That's 25 million approximately in any given year. Assuming they all survive to turn 18, you're looking at 75 million children between 18-21. There were 5.13 million people pursuing a Bachelors degree in 1998. The population between 18 and 21 is likely around 60 million because India's population has been growing. That would suggest 10% of college-age kids end up pursing a Bachelors degree, 25% of whom are studying the Sciences. I think the US figure for college enrollment out of high-school is 40%, American Universities graduate 1.2 million students every year, US population is 30% of India's.

Does the government subsidize university-level education in any way, or is a degree only possible to attain only if you are rich enough?

It's subsidized. That said, the public primary/secondary education system in India is a mess. You've typically got to be middle-class before you will even get to school. Most of the rural poor don't have access to an education in English (which is essential at the best colleges). You'll find that most of the people who end up at engineering schools are from the middle-class (about 30% of the population, still a healthy 300 million).

What does a M.Sc. or B.Sc. degree cost you?

Depends on where you go and what sort of scholarship you can get. The most prestigious Universities are the most liberal with their aid. Costs are a fraction of what they would be in the US. You can expect to pay anywhere from USD 100 to USD 1500 a year depending on the location of the college.

What are the most prominent higher-level education universities in the technology sector? Homepage URLs?

The seven IIT campuses are generally considered to be a cut above the rest. The entrance exam to IIT is offered country-wide and people often spend a substantial part of their final high-school year cramming for it. You can start at the Madras campus or Delhi or Bombay . The IIT is run by the Indian government. The entire program would cost $1500 plus room/board. IIT is a general sciences college, not all students study CS.

A comprehensive list of Universities is maintained by the Ministry of Education.

Looking through the web-pages, I see that Indian colleges aren't doing a particularly good job marketing themselves. Do they specialize in any particular fields of technology? What's the teaching like, compared to curriculums in Europe or the US? Are certain subjects and fields emphasized more or less? Are there any major differences in teaching methods? (lectures, homework, group projects, tuition by teaching assistants, etc.)

There is a lot of focus on examinations and remembering/reproducing conce

Re:I wish that americans/euopeans would get past t

[cubicledrone]

I underwent a 5 month unemployment

Chickenshit. I've been out of work for three years.

Currently ATT, IBM, and HP have been busy off-shoring (BTW, after the Nov. election, Sun and MS will be joining that in a BIG way if my friends from these companies are being honest).

And you find no problem with this?

Think about what is lacking out there that you can develop and sell.

Won't be long before there's nobody with a paycheck left to buy whatever we develop.

Re:Interview Question: starting your own businesse

[supersam]

I think a lot of people in the US equate Indian software companies with the Nike sweatshops... which is a part of this whole problem of outsourcing angst!

Indian techies have been going up the software development value chain for some time now.

Numbers and figures.

[Srividya]

I work in India, and I am employed writing software. I make about 7000 rupees a week, and I work about ten hours a day on the average it changes every week. You are right that money is different here. For instance a succelent dinner for two is about fifty rupees.

-Srividya

Re:Numbers and figures.

[cayenne8]

Anyone know how these amounts translate into US dollars?

Re:Numbers and figures.

[Anonymous Coward]

That's $8,088 per year. 1 USD was trading at 45.17 Rupees recently.

Re:Numbers and figures.

[geoffspear]

According to http://www.xe.com/ucc/, which I miraculously found by typing "Currency converter" into Google:
7000 INR = 154.79 USD
50 INR = 1.10 USD

Re:Numbers and figures.

[Eravau]

It's around $155 per day...or $40,300 per year (based on a 5-day work week)...according to Xe.Com.

Re:Numbers and figures.

[cayenne8]

Wow...that annual salary wouldn't even pay my rent for 8 months....

:-(

Re:Numbers and figures.

[asmussen]

Ok. So we've established that an Indian worker gets substantially less money. Also we've established that this is offset by the lower cost of living in India. What I want to know though, is HOW MUCH is it offset. If a guy is making $60,000 in the US for a job, and another guy in India is making around $8,000 for the same job, how does his standard of living compare to that of the guy in the States. Is he living more or less the same lifestyle on that $8,000, or what?

Re:Numbers and figures.

[bossy]

I would say a very flat conversion would be a factor of 10 considering cost of living.
i.e. 1$ = 10INR

Re:Numbers and figures.

[asmussen]

So, for example this guy who says he makes 7000 rupees/week makes 7000*52 = 364,000 reupees/year, and is probably (At rough guestimate) living somethime like a guy in the States making a $36,400/year salary?

Re:Numbers and figures.

[slackr]

Perhaps, but keep in mind that the general population in the US has a higher standard of living than that of India. In other words, the lifestyle of our average administrative asssistant (roughly $36,400/year) looks quite atractive in the third world, even if you or I would expect more.

Thats's why I for one am inclined not to forget how lucky I am to live here even in a relatively weak US economy and have no malice toward those in any country who would work hard for less and appreciate what they have.

Re:Numbers and figures.

[Anonymous Coward]

how does his standard of living compare to that of the guy in the States. Is he living more or less the same lifestyle on that $8,000, or what?

While the comparison cannot be one on one, it is still a useful starting point to understand the key differences. Earning about $8000/year, the techie lives in a modest one/two-bedroom apartment (housing is the biggest concern in the IT business-dependent cities), drives a new compact-midsized car (Toyota, Hyundai, Ford...), eats out fairly regularly (cost of a good meal: 5-10 bucks, in swanky places), pays about 7 dollars/month on premium cable (including HBO but no porn, sorry), watches Return of the King in a good theater for about 5 dollars, he enjoys good health care at highly affordable rates...all these are directly comparable to our lifestyle here in the States.

So where does the dreaded "third-world" aspect come into the picture? It's in the infrastructure, the traffic congestion, the increasing lawlessness in many cities, the bureaucracy, the corruption at each and every level of the government and the worsening pollution situation in the big cities. These are things that cannot be compared or measured.

And oh yes, the $8000/year techie in India is lonely, horny and probably a big consumer of online porn :) That's really the only direct comparison with his counterpart in the US.

Re:Numbers and figures.

[BlankTim]

So, how do I go about immigrating?
They're making more money than I am.

No. I'm not joking.

Re:Numbers and figures.

[ehiris]

a succelent dinner for two is about fifty rupees

Does that include tip?

Re:Numbers and figures.

[El]

Why is paying $40,000/year considered cheaper than paying some US college grad $35,000/year?

Re:Numbers and figures.

[Eravau]

Does that $40,000 have insurance, any 401K matching, other retirement plans, social security/medicare tax, etc. added on top of it? Probably not.

Does the $35,000 have all that and more added on top of it? Of course.

In the grand scheme of things, the $40,000 probably come out less.

Re:Numbers and figures.

[ganhawk]

No its 155 USD per Week !
Check the grand parent post.
It works out to $7500 approx.

We would all be rolling in dollars, if it was $155 a day. And 40k USD per year works out to 20 lakh rupees per year. Thats insane !

Re:Numbers and figures.

[denied_entry]

A non-issue.

Re:Numbers and figures.

[Cantus]

1 U.S. dollar = 45 Indian rupee

7,000/45 = $155 U.S. dollar a week

7,000x52/45 = $8,041 U.S. dollar a year

~ 8K/year

A succulent dinner for two: ~ a dollar 10 cents

Re:Numbers and figures.

[GolfBoy]

"Can architect masterful C++ for $4.50 per hour?" I do not mean to denigrate your skills, but I think not. And, with all due respect, I do not care what the local market is like. "Masterful?" Give me a break.

Re:Numbers and figures.

[Eravau]

Thanks for catching that. I worked that all out and had mis-read the original post. It is indeed around $8,000 USD.

Simple question, but with an explanation: Why?

[Andy Smith]

I passionately believe in racial equality and the global community, yet by posting this comment I fear I will be branded a racist. That is part of the problem. Foreign out-sourcing of tech jobs is difficult to discuss because there is always the possibility of genuine, objective criticisms being met with claims of racial prejudice.

I don't work in the tech sector but I have often dealt with Indian technicians who do technical support for a company that I am involved with. I have found the quality of their work to be consistently poor. Specifically:

1. Basic computer knowledge is lacking.

Worst example: A simple hardware problem (insufficient air circulation due to a blocked fan) was twice diagnosed as a software failure and the computer owner was instructed to back-up 40+ Gb of data on to CDRs, format his hard drive and reinstall XP. Remember, this happened *twice*. When the first reinstallation didn't fix the problem, he was told to do exactly the same thing again. (Obviously without the back-ups.)

2. Poor communications skills.

Not just poor English but fundamental communication failings, such as not listening properly and not making any apparent attempt to understand.

I was in a situation last year when an Indian tech support person decided that to disgnose a faulty hard-drive I must follow his instructions for dismantling my own PC. He wanted every component unplugged, removed, and then re-assembled. I tried to follow his instructions but he used left/right and front/back interchangeably, as if there were no difference in meaning, and after half an hour of nervously removing components I was starting to feel a bit out of my depth. If we went much further I wasn't confident that I'd be able to put everything back together so I stopped there. I re-assembled the PC and decided to buy a new hard-drive even though the faulty one was still under warranty.

So my question to Indian tech workers would be:

In my experience, over several years and dealing with dozens of different tech support people, I have found that Indian staff are significantly less knowledgeable, less helpful and overall less good at their jobs. With the obvious exception of cheaper labour, is there one single reason why Indian workers should have these jobs?

Re:Simple question, but with an explanation: Why?

[be-fan]

Cost benefit ratio. They might not be as good at their jobs, but if they are cheap enough, it doesn't matter.

We've been seeing this in the United States for decades, by the way. The quality of service has plummeted across the board. This is just a continuation of that trend. The sad fact is that people are willing to put up with crappy service if they can pay $10 less for something.

Re:Simple question, but with an explanation: Why?

[h1b_indian]

... less helpful and overall less good at their jobs. With the obvious exception of cheaper labour, is there one single reason why Indian workers should have these jobs?

When you say "less good," it shows your level of English. The correct word is 'worse.' Seems that is one reason to outsource to India.

Re:Simple question, but with an explanation: Why?

[stridebird]

I don't work in the tech sector but I have often dealt with Indian technicians who do technical support for a company that I am involved with. I have found the quality of their work to be consistently poor. Specifically:

In other words, "I am not a racist but..." ie "Alert: racist comment coming..."

Worst example: A simple hardware problem ...

That is not a simple hardware problem. It might sound simple to you - once the problem was tracked down. An overheating problem caused by insufficient air circulation? To me, that sounds tricky to diagnose straight off. Back-up the data, reinstall the OS - standard procedure. Your tech advised you well in my opinion. And your country (I assume you are a US national) designed this shit, remember. (Actually your country *hosted* the intellects that designed this shit, much of the intellectual effort of the US universities is the product of either guest or immigrant persons - just check out the surnames on high tech academic research papers coming outa the US).

2. Poor communications skills.

Ha. Sounds like the average American to me.

Untouchables

[Saint Stephen]

Ask them about the civil-rights abuse system known as the Caste system and if it has anything to do with why their is such a huge pool of cheap labor.

Not-so-high Tech Industry

[AntiMac]

My father's architecture firm has begun to outsource to India for their basic drafting (due to a number of things, including the threat of unionizing drafters). How does this compare to the high-tech industries in terms of what the low man on the totem pole gets paid and in terms of the popularity of this job?

Indian reply

[Anonymous Coward]

All those benefits apply. A working week is 48 hours. Unix system administrators like me receive anywhere between 1000-2500 USD per month, which is good. Stock options --yes. Unions-- not yet, Vactions -- yes, profit sharing -- yes, working conditions -- good (food, on campus health, gyms, billiards/pool tables, transport, residential arrangments, the works)... not much different.

What do I think of outsourcing?.. right now, i have work, so i am okay. Salaries might not rise as much in India as it does in the US, too many skilled people around willing to take a vacant spot. Work assesment is performance based, and strict standrds apply (read sigma levels, CMM levels and new age process/project management). The usual rant about shoddy code (here on slashdot aka."outsourcing horror") is something I am not familiar with. Most times, customers do not like changes in the design docs...homegrown software is world class...

CS Education and skills here are equally good, a trip to one of the many coding competitions on university campuses will prove that...

Why dont you come to India sometime? You'll like the food, the place, and people are friendly. Living conditions however vary widely, depending on what you can afford. Gasoline is expensive, people drive fuel efficient small cars and bikes. Language is NOT a problem (too many people on slashdot assume that indians dont speak english [u'll be surprised]... English is the second tongue here, and is spoken by a huge percentage of those in the cities... )

The media is just as trashy as western tabloids are. Night life is very much active, if you prefer to hang around at the many joints (coffee, tea bars, spas, bars, restuarants) around the cities (expensive, but not by USD standards).

In short, take a break, come over.

Re:Indian reply

[buckeyeguy]

We can't. By the time the plane/train/bus ride to [pick an Indian destination] is over, our pathetic vacation/holiday time would be all used up.

Re:Indian reply

[jtn]

I'm sorry, even if I wanted to, I can't. Your government has gone out of its way to prevent Americans from being hired inside your country. I'm afraid I don't have a link to one of the dozen articles written in various online trade rags, but if you do some digging I'm sure you'll find one.

Re:I wish that americans/euopeans would get past t

[WindBourne]

And you find no problem with this?

No. Start your own company. Now is the time to have numerous small companies. I have worked at HP, IBM, Bell Labs, and US West. One of the things that I have seen, is that none of them can move quickly. They are lumbering dinosaurs. It is very easy to come up with ideas, implement, and sell them. You may need to work with one of more business ppl, but now is the time.

Code Monkeys v. Architect?

[yintercept]

Related to the experience question: Many US business pundits claim that the US is only outsourcing the low end code monkey and support jobs, and is keeping the higher end, more prestigeous "project management" and architect jobs in the US?

First, is this the case? or is India also excelling in architectural and design work?

If it is the case, is there a resentment for the imperialistic attitude in only giving India the low end projects?

Finally, in a land where there are real monkeys am I making a big cultural blunder by calling people "code monkeys"?

Re:Code Monkeys v. Architect?

[mritunjai]

First, is this the case? or is India also excelling in architectural and design work?

(Request: Look on google for news links yourself... at 0032hrs IST and back home after 12hrs work day coding/debugging I'm too lazy to look it for you)

GE India filed 500+ patents last year . Lastest Intel Xeon was developed in Intel India development center. Fastest selling TI DSP was designed in TI India (Bangalore center). So yes, Indian's are getting good work... though its not universally the case.

Re:Code Monkeys v. Architect?

[Anonymous Coward]

They are taking ALL of our jobs... we were so Naive to assume they were just doing what you call "monkey coding", but they (Indians) are highly educated, because their government gives them a far greater opportunity to go to college (something that just don't exist here).

With over 1000 tradeschools, supplimenting very good colleges (free for most Indians), we haven't got a chance until our government steps in and does something to save our jobs.

Hats off to CNN and their "exporting America" for bringing this issue out in the open. Now people are starting to realize this and here's hoping we can somehow salvage our jobs, but we can't fight corporate greed. it's good that Lou Dobbs is "exposing" these greedy corporations. We need more ot fhis...

I have no love for CNN and their biased coverage, but they ARE mainstream and lots of John Q's watch it.

Re:Code Monkeys v. Architect?

[Ben Hutchings]

Those are examples of successful Indian branches of US companies, not examples of outsourcing.

Re:Code Monkeys v. Architect?

[xziz]

This is my sentiment exactly. The only real avenue for this sort of union like organizations in the tech industry, that I know of, are corporations with a great reputation. It comes as no surprise that our entire industry faces this sort of situation without a common work force that sets a high standard for quality.

It might be a good idea to analyze the methods of companies that program software for airlines and medical equipment. What we need is a union, much like steel worker unions, to bring us together based on rigid standards and high levels of expertise. If anyone knows of anything like this please let us all know and I will definitely sign up.

Re:Code Monkeys v. Architect?

[yintercept]

My experience is that the main use of the term "code monkey" is by programmers in situations where the boss is not giving them enough respect. A statement might be: "????? is a bad manager, he treats people like code monkeys." Or, a rebuttal "I am not a code monkey." The truth of the matter is that programmers are often good at breaking institutionalized oppression.

My experience with unionization so far is that unionization itself is institutionalized oppression. The first goal of a union would be to shut down independent shops and lock out consultants. Just as the union has successfully done in thousands of industries. The first goal of the union would be to stop the process of social mobility between workers and management. Historically, unionization has been the final seal in the institutionalization of workers.

One of the biggest worries of outsourcing overseas is that it might create a mechanism that stops social mobility. Before the major outsourcing, it was actually shaping up as an alternative means for skilled workers to move into management. The day there is a Union, the social mobility that IT workers currently enjoy will come to a dead stop as it has with most union activities in the past.

Re:Code Monkeys v. Architect?

[ahdeoz]

Probably 1 in 1000 Indians has the *opportunity* to attend a technical college, or college with a technical degree. The ratio in America is about 1 in 2.

Re:Code Monkeys v. Architect?

[ahdeoz]

All this talk about "needing a union" as a result of this outsourcing leads me to a conspiracy theory. If you follow the money, where does it go? That's right, your compassionate liberals have lost their union base (apart from the government, which, though nominally run by "conservatives" is made up entirely of card carrying "liberal" union-members.) So the coporate outsourcing trend is more than 2 parts fearmongering (you can tell, because it's in the media, an exclusive liberal medium) to try to drum up support for unions, which transfers directly to liberal political funds. I hope this rant was incoherent enough, in true conspiracy fashion, for your liking.

Do you realize?

[Srividya]

"Quality of life"? This is a phrase that (and I make assumption here) many Americans use but I do not think they understand. From where I come from, I know people who eat dirt. Not in a joking sense, but in a real sense, as a boy I knew that some dirt would sustain, that you could eat it and survive. I now make 7000 rupees a week... this is a fortune, a true fortune. I can feed everyone I know on what I make in a day.

I am not to be rude, but "Quality of Life" is to be understood.

I have a personal question

[Anonymous Coward]

What is the IT worker's lifestyle in India? They must be making about 20 times more money than the general populace... This would make them equivalent to high-flyers here in North America. Do they drive nice cars, eat at restaurants the whole time, and most importantly are they attracting pretty girls?

Re:How well/badly are Indian techies regarded ther

[be-fan]

In India, every mom wants their child to be a doctor or an engineer.

Not a stereotype: I've got a Bangladeshi mom :)

Re:Does the Indian 'caste' system affect your job

[Anonymous Coward]

I would imagine it would affect the job in exactly the same way as if you have a person of different color, faith, ethnicity, political view working in your office here.

It matters to those who are bothered by it and not at all by those who are not bothered. To say that performance reviews are purely based on performance is a lie .. we all know that attitude plays a part in terms of getting a positive/negative review.

Traditional sectors always employ people with a "conservative" bent of mind and the newer computer-related organizations are more meritocratic and less classist. That I presume goes for all nations...

Organised Crime

[nhaflinger]

Have you, or do you know of people who have been approached to gain unauthorized access to a company or provide corporate information for a fee?

If you where offered 3 times your normal annual salary to provide a copy of a database or other information from a US company would you do it?

Situations such as this are just now starting to come to light as illistrated in this article.

- Nicholas

Re:Organised Crime

[ShelfWare]

On a similar note:

When working with companies in the EU, do you have to get "certified" or trained on Safe Harbor rules (people having to opt-in for data to be exchanged)?

Re:I've got a few...

[schoolsucks]

2 of your questions have no merit at all. 1) Do you ever think of the person whose job you have taken? Is it this Indian techies fault that he took someone's job and he should think about it either remorsefully or happily? I took someone elses job once. I applied to that company, they saw my resume fit a position they had, and hired me. That position was already filled though, but the guy was commanding atleast double wage to what I was going to be making. So they laid him off. Should I feel guilty about taking his job? Why should I? I applied, the company hired me, and that's the end of that. 2) How does it feel to be a pawn in the hands of a corporation that's being used to drive down wages and living conditions for the entire western world? Pawn? Yeah the corporations have a secret agenda, it's called Agenda 2B4-Tfv which states that "We will do whatever possible to drive down wages and living conditions for the entire western world, and if necessary, hire pawns in India to do so"

Re:How well/badly are Indian techies regarded ther

[crushinghellhammer]

What I've always found unfortunate in America is that often a kid in school is almost always labelled a jock or a nerd. Why can't kids be encouraged to excel (or at the very least, actively participate) in both sports and academics.

Education is usually a child's best bet to a better quality of life (materially) and greater economic prosperity and a better future.

Our children shouldn't be raised thinking they'll be called "nerds" or "geeks" if they indulge in any activity that is even remotely mentally challenging.

The number of virtually illiterate and innumerate kids graduating from our schools is shocking.

It would have to be

[FirstTimeCaller]

Well, if they are taking over our jobs, then I would think that reading/posting to slashdot would occupy a large part of their day.

He means over there...

[Stone316]

From what I understand, a good monthly income is peanuts for someone here. But how much of that 25$ is landing in the programmers pocket in India? You can't compare importing workers to the states with outsourcing.

How do you feel about being outsourced

[plopez]

I have heard of call centers being set up in Ghana and Vietnam able to undercut Indian workers. How do you feel about Indian jobs beign outsourced to cheaper nations?

Here is one question for you guys (out here)

[too_bad]

Why is it okay to have years and years of "free trade" where every country is
coaxed, forced, badgered, bombed into succumbing an still when the same
free trade by the virtue of its definition turns around in one particular instance
there is so much insecurity, so much fear and so much FUD ?

Is it okay to export almost everything you can think of from genetic seeds to WMDs
to third world under tremondous pressure but when they can do a small job
better than you guys you start screaming bloody murder?

Have you all ever stopped and considered why there is so much terrorism in
middle east but why India has grown relatively peaceful (inspite of america's
staunch support to the biggest terrorist neighbour of India that it conviniently
turns a blind eye to while children are taught to hate america in their early
days at holy-schools)?

have you wondered that if you stop looking at the world like the British did,
a place to plunder, loot and exploit maybe, just maybe, the terrorism would
stop since people will have decent meals to eat and your own kids dont
have to get blown into pieces in Iraq so Bush can bask in glory, while
he re-defines marriage so he can deny basic rights to half the people ?

Wake up folks.

Gissa job?

[OriginalArlen]

(no text)

Phrases

[scumdamn]

Could you please explain the following phrases?

• Do the needful
• Kindly see the following attachment
• I was tensed
• Why do you use the word "revert" rather than "reply"?
• Why is verb/noun agreement not important? eg "None of the emails is being sent to me"
• "Customer is irate"
• Why do you pronounce Wipro "Vipro" and Vehicle "Wehicle"?

I hear these things all the time and wonder why we're so dependant on a country with such awful grammar to handle so many customer issues.

Re:Phrases

[easter1916]

Worse yet, "there is a doubt" -- where is it? Can I see it?

Re:Phrases

[Oopsz]

Vhere are the nuclear wessels?

In all honesty, that's extremely literate compared with some of the southern USA patterns of speech I've had to deal with in the past.

apu is from pakistan

[mo]

Apu is not from India, he is from Ramatur, Pakistan.

Geek culture in India?

[Experiment 626]

In the U.S., there is something of a geek subculture which Slashdot in particular caters to. Obviously, not all programmers are true geeks at heart, but among the people in America who are really fascinated by computers, you have a greatly disproportionate number who are into science fiction, RPGs/LARPs, Lord of the Rings, Legos, Anime, etc.

Does this apply in India as well? Would, say, a Unix systems programmer there typically have such things as interests? If not, are there analogous hobbies that distinguish the Indian geek from everyone else?

Re:Geek culture in India?

[h1b_indian]

Experiment_626, Let me attempt to answer this question for you. Education gets very high priority in India. Achievements for teenagers in India means academic achievements. Most Hindus are brought up worshipping the Goddess of learning. While this may mean nothing on the surface, it is my belief that subliminally, it gives importance to education by raising it to a divine level. Science and math fascinate a lot of kids. It is not a subculture. It is mainstream culture out in India. Pursuing science is the #1 choice. Liberal arts and commerce related streams get lower priority in India. Science and those pursuing science get a lot of respect. Consider this fact. When a radio channel in Britain conducted a poll to determine who the greatest Briton was, the British voted for Diana. Indians voted for Newton. I also see a lot of hostility everywhere in USA towards Indians. I feel sad for a lot of Americans but it is wrong to distinguish people by their race and brand them as people stealing jobs. For me, there is only one human race and I hope no individual has to suffer. I am dismayed to see that those who were extolling the virtues of free-market have suddenly decided that Stalinist ideas are the best! Such double standards are unacceptable.

Re:Geek culture in India?

[AnnaSaru]

sure there is a geek culture out there. You may not recognize it if you see it, because like other imports it may have been indianized . i remember geeks early in my career who would work different and work alone. Its been a long time and i may be out of touch. if anything respect for authority has diminished over the years, and you know how that impacts.

Re:Geek culture in India?

[utahjazz]

Dude, put away the race card.

You think I'd be a happy if I lost my job to outsourcing to Russian? You think I'd be totally OK if my income went down 30% because of outsourcing to Australia?

Like "Oh I don't mind that I can't feed my kids, as long as I know some white guy out there got my job and not some Indian, beacuse I really hate them." Please.

This seriously has nothing to do with race man. We want job secuirty and good pay. And I want you to have those things as well. I just don't want to lose *my* a job to you, or Dmitri, or Bruce, or John, or Sally, or ANYONE!!!!

Re:Geek culture in India?

[h1b_indian]

I agree with you but I am not the one bringing up the issue of race. Those who accuse indians of stealing their jobs are the ones bringing up the issue of race.

Cheating in Indian Colleges?

[DAldredge]

Is cheating still widespread in Colleges in India? I ask this because in 2002 the GRE was canceled in that region due to very high levels of cheating.

Re:Cheating in Indian Colleges?

[HungWeiLo]

Probably no more than colleges and universities in the US or other First-World countries.

I can't count the number of times I have gone to a computer lab in school, opened the CD-ROM drive, and found a CD with tests, labs, and homeworks from the last 5 years.

Re:Cheating in Indian Colleges?

[DAldredge]

GRE said is cheating was the reason the test was cancelled. If you do a google search you can get more info on it.

Re:Cheating in Indian Colleges?

[DAldredge]

Has the GRE every been stoped for the entire USA due to cheating?

No, it hasn't.

Re:Cheating in Indian Colleges?

[djeaux]

According to Educational Testing Service, the GRE was not cancelled in India or China in 2002-2003. However, the GRE Computer Science subject test was cancelled in India and China in 2002 due to "improper sharing of questions from the GRE Computer Science Subject Test by students..."

A small correction, maybe, but the GRE Computer Science subject test is not the entire GRE.

Re:Cheating in Indian Colleges?

[AnnaSaru]

I agree - cheating students, corrupt politicians, rapists, sex offenders. You dont need anti-trust for those things because they can never be monopolized by one country and one culture.

Re:Cheating in Indian Colleges?

[DAldredge]

Well, since 2 people where just killed by the police in India due to cheating on highschool exams, perhaps it is worse in india...

Interest in Technology

[cybermace5]

What is the level of actual interest in technology? Is it merely seen as a way to get money, or Indians going into it because they have a real interest and curiosity?

I started a Robotics Meetup in the hopes of getting robotics clubs running in places that don't have them, but it hasn't been very successful. Only 82 members worldwide. However, of the top five cities, three are Indian, the top two being Mumbai and New Delhi with 11 and 10 members respectively. I just want to know if this is a factor of high population, or if Indians are entering technology because they enjoy it.

thats around $70.- a week then

[donstenk72]

I make about 7000 rupees a week, and I work about ten hours a day

Differentiating on price

[Anonymous Coward]

I, for one, don't entertain illusions that the US companies would fall in love with our work and ignore cheaper alternatives if they present themselves. I don't think anyone else here does either!

supersam's got a good point. An associate of mine recently offshored his entire call center operations to the Phillipines. "Why not India?" I asked (after reading a recent /. thread about this topic).

His answer was that India was too expensive. The Phillipines apparently works at half of what he was being quoted for India contracts. Granted, the English is a bit better in India, but when price is king, India's better quality product didn't matter. (India... hope you've enjoyed your 15 minutes!)

Where does it go from here? Many are drooling over China's expansion into these markets. Indonesia would be tempting if it was a bit more stable politically. Whever it can be done cheaper, the business will go.

I did find it amusing in a previous /. India outsourcing thread, one poster from India praised his firm's CMM level 4 or 5 achievement and talked about how they were getting the business because of their quality efforts. It's a nice goal and it'll retain a couple of accounts, but to pretend for a moment that you're being used because of your quality is like a prostitute thinking she's appreciated for her intellectual qualities.

Hopefully the Corporate "Johns" out there doing the outsourcing (my associate included) will be able to recognize that their own customers assume quality is inherent in their products/services and when their call services, software, manufacturing, etc. is lacking these qualities, consumers will shop with their feet. Still, a visit to WalMart leads me to question whether consumers really care at all about quality. They won't pay for it, but may assume it's there regardless of price.

Re:Differentiating on price

[cDarwin]

Where does it go from here? Many are drooling over China's expansion into these markets. Indonesia would be tempting if it was a bit more stable politically. Whever it can be done cheaper, the business will go.

http://www.softghana.com/

Re:Differentiating on price

[gnu-generation-one]

"Indonesia would be tempting if it was a bit more stable politically."

Maybe if their people paid as much tax as the americans, they could spend a bit more on police and courts and defense to make it a more stable place.

But then if people were paid enough to spend that money, surely it wouldn't be as good an option for outsourcing anymore?

"Hi, we're a corporation. We want something for nothing"

Re:Differentiating on price

[Corpus_Callosum]

The Phillipines apparently works at half of what he was being quoted for India contracts. Granted, the English is a bit better in India, but when price is king, India's better quality product didn't matter. (India... hope you've enjoyed your 15 minutes!)

Actually, the english is better in the Philippines. There are two national languages in the Philippines; English and Tagolog. America actually occupied the Phillipines from the time of the Spanish-American war until the 1950s, when it was offered Statehood. The Philippines declined and became a sovereign nation, but still had American bases until the 1990s. During this time, English became as widely spooken in business as Tagolog and it is considered a pre-requisit to get a job.

I have visited the Philippines twice and my fiancee is Filippina. I have also done business with Philippino companies and have directly witnessed their work ethic. I have been working in the Silicon Valley for 12 years and also have experience with Indian workers and Indian companies. I can tell you with full certainty: Philippinos have better work ethic, are generally smarter and have a higher degree of education, speak english more fluently and work cheaper than Indians. The one downside is that, since this is not well recognized, there are not as many companies doing outsourcing in the Philippines. Yet.

Competition to India is coming. And it is not just the Philippines. Asia cranks out more engineers than any other part of the world. These guys are smart, ambitious and will work for nothing.

For my dollar, however, I would still rather outsource to Russian firms. They have the best engineers in the world (outside of the Silicon Valley itself).

Re:Differentiating on price

[Brolly]

Perhaps this is offtopic, but what about Walmart makes you think what they sell in their stores lacks quality? They sell name brand stuff right alongside their own brands, both at prices lower than in most stores. Their ability to sell at cheap prices arises mainly from their absolutely unprecedented purchasing power; they can buy things on a bulk scale the likes of which no one has seen before. Combine that with a business model that makes very little profit per item sold (again their strategy is to sell in bulk), and you have one of the most sucessful businesses in history. You may knock it, but there is a reason that if you look at a Walmart parking lot, you may see a brand new BMW parked next to a used Hyundai. (And for those of you who would claim that their "low wages" are the entire reason for Walmart's success, I happen to know for a fact that their wages are competitive with many other jobs of that skill level, and yet Walmart succeeds while K-Mart is folding.)

Re:Differentiating on price

[Anonymous Coward]

I have to agree about Russia. My company hired some Russian outsourcers to do Perl programming. Not only were they far better Perl programmers than us, their development methodology was also lightyears ahead: they used a highly structured Extreme Programming style to develop things fast and well. Basically, they should have been employing us... as juniors!

Re:Differentiating on price

[parryFromIndia]

I did find it amusing in a previous /. India outsourcing thread, one poster from India praised his firm's CMM level 4 or 5 achievement and talked about how they were getting the business because of their quality efforts. It's a nice goal and it'll retain a couple of accounts, but to pretend for a moment that you're being used because of your quality is like a prostitute thinking she's appreciated for her intellectual qualities. Having worked with many american counterparts as programmer/architect/tester for the so called big names, I can confidently say that whatever you are ranting about quality is not really true. After cautious study and observation, I found that the american programmers do not offer any significant quality benefit over their Indian counterparts, have little care for the client they are working for, and are not all that inclined/able towards producing quality software - And they do all this at a hefty price. What I have experienced is that all the big names really care little about software quality beyond a certain limit - And Indians are good enough for any upward/downward limit you impose on them. Indeed Price is the King if you are offering something that does its job reasonably well.

Re:Differentiating on price

[parryFromIndia]

Well let me clarify - I was generally talking about your normal run-of-the-mill software development work. Otherwise I agree that Americans have produced really laudable and genuinely innovative software and Indians have no such credit to their record. But there is nothing that can prove on a one-to-one basis that a Indian programmer is less capable or less quality minded than his american counterpart for the normal day-to-day s/w development work.

Re:Differentiating on price

[Hognoxious]

India outsourcing thread, one poster from India praised his firm's CMM level 4 or 5 achievement and talked about how they were getting the business because of their quality efforts.

CMM. It's the new ISO 9000.

Re:Differentiating on price

[isabellf]

>I did find it amusing in a previous /. India >outsourcing thread, one poster from India praised >his firm's CMM level 4 or 5 achievement and talked >about how they were getting the business because of >their quality efforts. It's a nice goal and it'll >retain a couple of accounts, but to pretend for a >moment that you're being used because of your >quality is like a prostitute thinking she's >appreciated for her intellectual qualities.

It think this shows either racism or over self confidence. There is surely among indian competitors, one being able to provide the same quality level as an american company, intelligence, hard work and proper education is certainly not an american only vertue.

Re:Differentiating on price

[BraveHeart007]

im looking for a good russian software guy over there can anyone help?? Thx Erik

Thanks Rob

[mr_z_beeblebrox]

That sounds like a lot of work and it should be very interesting to read! Yay editor!

warm fuzzies

[thayner]

What is the general view towards America? Are they thankful that the United States is a big believer in free trade and enriching free trade? Do they like buying American goods over local goods or the goods of other nations? I'm asking because I'm curious in the medium to long term when India reaches "First World" status, what the prospects are of India being a major trading partner with the US.

Also, in an unrelated question, given that more US money is flowing to India, is India less likely to do something the United States won't like? It wasn't too long ago when a consulting contract I had in India was cancelled because of their testing a nuclear bomb.

Re:Interview Question: starting your own businesse

[pantycrickets]

Do Indian techs feel that they have the opportunity now to become the producers, the designers, the ones who create businesses?

Nothing was stopping them from being inspired to produce innovative products before, why would this change anything? Look at CroTeam.. the makers of Serious Sam. Just a couple of guys from Croatia who wanted to make a game, and now look at them. They have a great engine, and a top-selling game.

Re:I wish that americans/euopeans would get past t

[zzyzx]

That's great for the small number of people who can do that, but what happens to everyone else?

Classic Class Conflict Problem

[SubtleNuance]

Alot of North Americans are concerned with Offshore Outsourcing because of a very simple reason. Capitalism. Capitalism allows the externalizing of cost with the goal being internalized profit.

India, and much of the rest of the world outside NorthAmerica has a greater understanding of the role of the Market and its place in culure. Capital is no more influencial anywhere than it is in the USA. People know this. Yet, this has served *them* well, it has (amounghst many other factors) allowed the greatest present aggregation of wealth in the world. Most everywhere else in the world has more social cohesion and recognition of the pitfalls of unconstrained Capitalists. McCarthyism is still a very felt in the USA.

What people in North America are concerned about -- and I dont believe they recognize it -- is because for once, they themselves (lower/middle classes) realize that what Capitalism has allowed to cause to happen to the "underprivilaged" places will be soon happening to them.

I do not begrudge my brother in India an opportunity to do better for himself and his community. What fair-trade advocates are speaking about is this: If we are to have unbridled world-trade, we must have methods of protecting our gains. We cannot allow the Owner Class to cause a race to the bottom. India's "gains" cannot come at the expense of the things that have already been created in the USA. Middle-America will not allow it. I firmly believe that the 'wealth' in the west exists EXACTLY because places like China, Africa and India are generally depressed.

Plutocrats in Washington cannot risk unsettling the status-quo. They realize they have a problem; what to do about unemploying their own masses while still allowing the exploitation of the underprivilaged (India in general). Exploitation In this case is used to mean "paying two people different wages A) based on Geography and B) because you can do it to make more profit)).

My question is this: What can be done to SUSTAIN the standard of living in the West while raising it in the rest of the world. What can be done to allow the masses *in both nations* to demand EQUAL standards of living, health care, labour rights, safety standards etc.

In America, these standards will be FORCED by the marketplace to come down. In the rest, these are the standards that are wanting to be raised.

Is there a way out of this paradox?

Re:Classic Class Conflict Problem

[SubtleNuance]

Your fears come from a simple lack of understanding of international trade, free markets, and comparative advantage.

Of course this assumes that the planet has the capacity for unlimited growth... THAT is your fucking pie dipshit.

If you think the planet can consume at the level of america and the west your absolutely wrong.

Superior education?

[Tablizer]

Many of the pro-offshoring lobbyists in the U.S. tend to emphasize allegedly superior education in India rather than lower wages being the reason for the shift.

I suspect they do this because blaming the US educational system makes a great political scape-goat (excuse) that most people will believe. However, I feel that formal education does not make much difference in IT and the visa Indians I have worked with on the average are no better or worse than citizens with regard to computer skills.

Do you share this educational-centric view, or is it just clever politics from the lobbyists?

Customer Service

[sirgoran]

A lot of people have already mentioned these facts but I thought I'd put it in a different light.

In your work as a "contracted employee" do you feel that you are providing the best customer service given the fact that English may be a second language for you, and that there might be a language gap?

Also, since the U.S. has such a strict laws regarding the export of its software, that you might not have the same version of the software as the folks whose work you are doing, or the people that you are helping, do you feel that it might hamper your ability to provide the best customer service?

-Goran

Indian language software

[belmolis]

I'd be interested in knowing how important Indian programmers consider the availability of software localized for Indian languages (a) for their own work and (b) for the consumers of their software. I'd also be interested in knowing how much progress they think has been made in this direction.

Price is King

[yintercept]

but when price is king

IMHO, it is not just price but the extent to which companies and governments will go to keep the price of their labor low. If it was just the free market at work, wages would raise, and all boats would rise together. Tieing large anchors to the labor force, will cause everyone dependent on wages to sink.

Re:Price is King

[homer_ca]

Just to give you some idea of how high our boat is, the US with about 5% of the world population consumes about 1/4 of the world's oil production. If you spread the wealth around without taking into account all boats rising, we'd all be living in third world squalor. If somehow everybody caught up to us overnight economically, it would be an environmental disaster, at least until the oil runs out which might be in 10 years instead of 100.

Re:Does the Indian 'caste' system affect your job

[openSoar]

I take your point but (as I understand it) there is a big difference between how one relates to people of a different ethnicity, faith, creed etc. in the USA and how it works in India under the caste system - in some cases, regardless of how you feel personally, interaction outside of your own caste is strictly prohibited for instance.

Work in India?

[Zarf]

I would like to come work in India. How do I get a work visa and an IT job? How do I calculate my salary requirements for living in India?

Who is India oursourcing to?

[FerretFrottage]

So if a US programmer charges $100/hr, and Indian $10/hr and charges $1/hr, do Indian comapines find themelves outsourcing to other countries (i.e. China, Russia?)

Speaking of Universities...

[C10H14N2]

Bangalore University has a paltry number of openings for foreign students. Does India see itself opening its universities to foreign students to the same degree that American universities do?

Many americans already saddled with academic debts equal to a decade of IT salaries in India might find it beneficial to pursue advanced degrees on the cheap, but India doesn't seem to be stepping up to the plate.

Re:I wish that americans/euopeans would get past t

[SpaceCadetTrav]

Everyone else? They will make excuses and whine on Slashdot.

Re:I wish that americans/euopeans would get past t

[WindBourne]

The simple fact is that CE/CS/IT/MIS is not for everybody. Many ppl seem to think that jobs are guarenteed 40 hours / week @ high pay. They are not. Personally, I am glad to see many of these jobs being shipped overseas. As long as these countries open up their borders, it will mean greater exports for US/Europe.

In addition, it will hopefully free intelligent ppl to persue other options. It will also mean that some ppl (ok a lot of ppl) will have to change careers. I have already done that once (was a lab rat back in the early 80's).

In the 70's,80's, many ppl were layed off due to the mills not upgrading and Unions insisting on high prices. Now, we have techies that want to work few hours and earn top dollars. It will never happen for long. But, there are many bright ppl here that can develop the next level of tech. for new jobs. We are no longer being burdened with old technology.

offshore interview fraud

[lecca]

Many of those left working for high-tech firms in the USA have had added to their job duties, doing phone interviews of new-hires in India. I have heard rumors that at companies such as Intel it is not uncommon for the indian interviewees to use fraudulent techneques, such as having their more advanced friends do the entire enterview for them. Most americans can't tell the difference, and end up hiring someone other than who they interviewed for the job. Is this a common practice? Have you heard of anyone doing this?

Are independant companies developing locally?

[HiThere]

Is this development all in a dependant mode, at the whim of foreign companies, or are local companies developing skills that they can use independantly when (inevitably) the company you contract with decides to go elsewhere?

Local companies are what really help the local economy. (Until they get too big, and then they use their power to become a drain...so be wary of that!) But networks of small local companies could be the start of a true independant Indian economy. (Well, within limits, of course. Sigh!)

Do people ever learn that if they put their trust in an external power, that power will use their trust to it's own ends? (They don't seem to learn that in the US, and we've had numerous events that point directly at that lesson in the last few decades. [Previously the lessons were more infrequent.])

Anyone see the TechTV program "Nerd Nation"?

[IANAAC]

*Disclaimer*
I know nothing about India other than what the media has fed me and from a few of my Indian co-workers.

The other day there was a program on TechTV about training schools (for telephone support) in India. While I don't doubt that the majority of Indians speak English quite well with an accent, the TechTV program REALLY gave the impression that the people going into these training schools didn't have a grasp of everyday Enlgish usage. It was obvious that the people shown in the program had studied English, but apart from two of the students, they all had a hard time expressing themselves in English.

So this brings me to my question:
Who do these schools primarily target in their ads?

Re:Anyone see the TechTV program "Nerd Nation"?

[Oopsz]

Any technical high school or university will be taught near entirely in english, as well as professional degrees such as law, medicine, etc. Both my parents did undergrad science in india and were taught exclusively in english. So I'm guessing they aren't targetting the educated.

Re:Anyone see the TechTV program "Nerd Nation"?

[riffenator]

exactly. I perfect example from the above quote is:

...US and hence jump onto the bandwagon!

Everyone knows that you jump on the bandwagon. Jumping onto the bandwagon is the kinda stuff Apu says.

Re:Anyone see the TechTV program "Nerd Nation"?

[supersam]

Everyone knows that you jump on the bandwagon. Jumping onto the bandwagon is the kinda stuff Apu says

Are you absolutely certain about that? ... Think again!!

Re:USA software worker makes 60,000 USA dollars

[Anonymous Coward]

I was in India in 1999. Back when all this insantity started. I was invited through a friend I met on the internet who wanted to setup a web site farm in Mumbai. Of course I had NO idea it would come to this, But he set me up in a hotel in Goa, gave me SOME money, but not enough.

I hustled and got web site development jobs for the Goa Tourist industry, which was booming at the time.

Back then, the internet infrastructure was very primitive at best. Only ISP was the Indian Government's VSNL, and in Goa it was a joke. Even IF you could obtain a free dialup line (then, there were only 64 lines, and 300 internet cafe's competing for them).

The average Indian programmer was getting about $6,000 a year (1999), now I think it
s more like $15,000 and up.

Once word got out I was in Goa, many people flocked to me, but my Indian friend who initialy brought me over to india got all pissed off, because I took on more work without his approval. What could I do? I had to make money, and he wasn't supporting me anymore.

Anyway, India left a sort of "bad taste" in my mouth, not to mention that my body couldn't handle the food and I got sick all the time. Even though I lived in the tropics all my life, I thought I could deal with the Indian climate... BOY! I was wrong... Oppressivly hot in Feb and March, and constant rains in the monsoon season, I urge anyone considering moving to India to consider this.

One of the things my Indian friend pressed me on, was to train all his up-start programmers. At that time, I was a bit Naive, and eventually got fed up with the monsoons and left in July.

Anyway, this is MY experience in India.... I learned a lot (even picked up some Hindi).

Accents etc

[crushinghellhammer]

Indians probably think of us Americans as speaking English with a very heavy accent. Almost everybody that speaks English speaks it with an accent typical to the country of their origin. What is the "accent benchmark"? So stop giving them hell about their accent. There are quite a few accents in America that are terribly hard to understand.

Re:Accents etc

[IANAAC]

You will find in any country that accent is measured by what is broadcast on the popular media. Look at national newscasters. They tend to speak with a flat, monotone accent. If you listen a bit closer you can hear subtle differences (Peter Jennings' Canadian accent comes to mind).

Get out of the national media and you'll definietly hear more regional accents.

But by and large, not having an accent is measured against the national-level broadcast media.

Re:Accents etc

[crushinghellhammer]

I totally agree with you. As you said, accent is measured by NATIONAL-level broadcast media. This obviously varies from country to country. Therefore, for an Indian, an American speaker would be speaking accented English, as would a Frenchman or a Russian. All of us have accents and benchmarks can only be local.

Re:Accents etc

[rsidd]

There are quite a few accents in America that are terribly hard to understand.

Actually there's only one accent in America (or so it seems to a foreigner), though indeed it's often hard to understand. It's amazing to me that there's less variation in accent coast-to-coast in the US than between two adjacent villages in England, let alone between a London Cockney and a Yorkshireman. (And England is where the language originated after all, so I don't see how anyone can claim that there's such a thing as a One True Accent.)

Re:Accents etc

[Pionar]

Well, to us in America, there's only one British accent, so it goes both ways. I've been to London, and the accent I associate most with the Brits is very annoying. I believe it's what you guys call Cockney. In the midwest, it's true, there aren't many variations in accent. There are, but they're subtle. However, Vermont has a different accent than New Yorkers, which is totally different from Massachusetts accents (I pahk my cah in hahvahd yahd) :).

Even here in Indiana, you can always tell which part of Indiana someone's from. The people in northern Indiana have the flat, monotone speaking patterns most recognize as American accents. In southern Indiana (and most of central), there's a bit of southern "twang" to the accent (as if it migrated north from Kentucky).

Re:Accents etc

[rsidd]

the accent I associate most with the Brits is very annoying. I believe it's what you guys call Cockney.

Actually I'm not Brit - I'm Indian, temporarily living in the US. And I don't find cockney or other Brit accents annoying. Some Brits speak so clearly it's perhaps the closest thing one can get to "no accent" (Noel Coward is a good example), others are hard to follow but amusing in their way, especially if you have things like "My Fair Lady" or Monty Python's dead parrot sketch in mind.

Re:Accents etc

[bluethundr]

Actually there's only one accent in America (or so it seems to a foreigner), though indeed it's often hard to understand.

Completely and totally wrong. Strange as this may sound, one of the most accent neutral dialects in American English is in Central New Jersey. Not to be confused with North Jersey (Hoboken for example) which sounds almost identical to a NY accent, or a South Jersey accent (Cherry Hill) which sounds almost identical to a Philadelphia accent. People in the central part of the state speak a "Broadcaster's English".

That being said, a New York accent sounds NOTHING like a New England accent. Which sounds NOTHING AT ALL like a southern accent. Which sounds NOTHING at all like a Chicago accent. It's not at all like having a Punjabi speaking to a Gujarti in a lingua franca such as Hindi, where communcation between the two would pose more difficulty than, say, a New Yorker speaking to a Chicagoan. But there is NO mistaking the two accents (to an American Native).

And as I started travelling around the country, I started finding branches of the American dialect of which I had been completely unaware! In Minnesota, people almost sound SWEDISH at times! And one of them really threw me one time when she told me to put down my "bay-ug". She had to actually point to the bag (to me a "bah-g") for me to understand her. I can understand your ignornace if you are not a native American, but you are way off base!

Re:Accents etc

[Pionar]

or "I don't like spam!" :)

Re:Accents etc

[overunderunderdone]

Well, to us in America, there's only one British accent

Geez, didn't you ever watch "My fair lady"? I think most Americans know there are a variety of English accents of different regions and classes.

American English does have far fewer differences than there are in England. The majority of Americans speak one dominant dialect with generally the same syntax and grammar - most of the differences are accents pretty much effecting only pronunciation. In England there are not only regional accents but regional dialects with not only differences in pronunciation but in grammatical structure that border on being mutually incomprehensible.

If you think about it this makes sense. England is where the language formed and populations have been living in their distinct regions for many, many generations. On top of that historically there wasn't a great deal of social mobility.

In coming to America all those brits from all those regions and representing all those classes were jumbled up together right from the point the boarded the ship to come over. When they got here they moved about a great deal as the population pushed westward and there was more social mobility. All those dialects and accents pretty much evened out into one general American dialect. Even before modern communications and transportation an American would usually have less trouble understanding another American half the continent away than an Englishman would have understanding someone from three or four towns over, or potentially even someone from the same town but from a substantially different economic class.

Re:Accents etc

[IANAAC]

It's amazing to me that there's less variation in accent coast-to-coast in the US than between two adjacent villages in England...

You really should take a cross-country trip sometime. You'd be quite surprised at the differences you'd hear.

Re:Accents etc

[Hognoxious]

Actually there's only one accent in America (or so it seems to a foreigner), though indeed it's often hard to understand.

If you can't at last distinguish a Southerner, a Midwesterner and a Bostonian, then you've got tin lugs, matey.

Re:Accents etc

[Hognoxious]

In coming to America all those brits from all those regions and representing all those classes were jumbled up together right from the point the boarded the ship to come over.

A lot of theose 'brits from all the regions' were Germans, Poles and Italians. Your point is valid though - accents will tend to simplify and moderate, as you may observe among new students at college, recruits in the services or whatever. If they didn't, they wouldn't understand each other.

Re:Accents etc

[Matt - Duke '05]

I could not agree with you more. It was simply amazing to me that when I went to college people were _surprised_ that I was actually from *gasp* NEW JERSEY! Everyone just looooves to make fun of us dirty Jersey residents. People just come to expect that all people from The Garden State sound like they're trashy, uneducated mob thugs. However, as you rightly point out, there is a significant part of the state that has no discernable accent whatsoever. I happen to be from one of those regions, and I can't even begin to tell you how many people don't believe that I'm from New Jersey.

Re:Accents etc

[stephanruby]

There is only one true English accent and it will belong to whomever exports the most English-speaking television/movie programs. (-:

Other needs

[westendgirl]

I would be interested in knowing whether programmers and their families expect the following and how much these things cost: - car
- "good" schools for their children -- forcing them to buy in "good" neighbourhood
- 2000-square-foot home on 33'x100' lot on a wide street
- second car
- unsubsidized education for their children
- occasional holidays
- buy first home with 5% down
- pre-school and after-school care for children
- name-brand clothes and shoes (just something along the lines of Gap & Nike, not Armani)
- to provide for themselves in retirement

Having recently read several reviews and seen interviews for The Two-Income Trap (Elizabeth Warren and Amelia Warren Tyagi), I am curious about how "middle-class" Indians set their expectations. While the authors of this book take the view that it's 2nd incomes that have led to a decline in American living standards, I think there are many other middle-class American expectations that have led to demands for $60k programmer salaries. I live in Canada, and we are often told of higher US salaries. (Okay, it's not like I'm making $11k!) But I've often noted that Americans must pay for HMOs, retirement, gated communities, college, etc. It would be interesting to compare American "needs" with Indian "needs".

And, since I'm sure I've exposed myself to flames, I'll just state for the record that I'm a Canadian woman in a 2-income family that recently became bought its first home. However, it's an 800-square-foot condo where we plan to raise children, and we both walk to work and stores. We have a 4-year-old Civic, but we rarely drive it.

Re:Other needs

[aacool]

- "good" schools for their children -- forcing them to buy in "good" neighbourhood

As a matter of fact, you can go to any school you want, not just the school in your neighborhood. The government funded school system is pretty poor compared to the private schools (which are actually called public schools, go figure)

- 2000-square-foot home on 33'x100' lot on a wide street

Varies from city to city, approx $50000 in Bangalore, IMHO

- second car

A car costs about $4000 - new model

- unsubsidized education for their children

government schools - about $10, private schools, non-subsidised - $50

- occasional holidays

mentioned before - about 20 days a year

- pre-school and after-school care for children

about $100 a month

- name-brand clothes and shoes (just something along the lines of Gap & Nike, not Armani)

costs the same as in the US - Levis 501, for ex costs about $30, good local brands about $5 - to provide for themselves in retirement

mandatory retirement savings plans funded partly out employee salary, with matching company contribution(about 9% of monthly basic pay), growing at about 9% p.a. Government employees have inflation-indexed compensation

Re:Other needs

[Torinaga-Sama]

If you are two income and living in the US, you usually will not have significant health insurance costs, most reputiable companies will pay for most of your health care. My wife's is totally covered, and I think I pay like $30 a month for mine (with HMO, Dental, life, short and long term disability insurance). I am probably at lest somewhat blessed.

Where insurance starts getting expensive is if you have to insure other family members. That can easily get to $300+ a month. When we get to the point of having kids, Canada may become much more attractive. ;-)

Though I can't imagine having kids in an 800 Sq ft condo. Best of luck on that!

Re:Other needs

[westendgirl]

This is really interesting. It sounds like an Indian programmer can achieve a better quality of life than can a US programmer. Of course, perhaps it only holds for this particular profession at this point in time.

Re:Other needs

[westendgirl]

Does your health insurance cover everything, or do you have to pay deductibles?

Canadian public health insurance is about C$55 ($US40) per person per month. Many employers pick up that fee, and it's subsidized for lower-income people. We don't have to pay for other costs, except medication -- which is subsidized for lower income people and also usually included in employers' extended health benefits.

I know someone is going to reply and say that my taxes are high to compensate for this. However, whenever I have run the numbers, I have found that the taxes I pay are no higher than those of Americans, if you include health benefits for a family. And our small and mid-sized business taxes are far lower than those in the US.

Re:Other needs

[aacool]

The points mentioned apply to all professions in India, not just software. Software professionals make up a minimal percentage of the workforce.

Don't forget, India has a GDP bigger than that of Australia, and a growth rate of 6-7%

Re:Other needs

[Torinaga-Sama]

I think I pay like $20-25 per visit to the docotor. If I end up needing meds, it's like 10-15 to get the prescription filled.

I am probably not the best person to discuss the actual cost however as I have not been in to see the doc in about 5 years.

But looking on your tax table in the bracket we would be in we would be paying considerably more than we do now. Especially in Quebec. :-)

There is a lot more of a break for the less well off in your country, which I admire.

Re:Other needs

[westendgirl]

Yes, Quebec does take a bigger chunk of your taxes. However, it has heavily subsidized daycare and university. It also needs to produce everything in French.

On the whole, Canadian taxes are starting to look more like those in the US. I looked up US and Canadian tax rates, and was surprised to see that they are not that different anymore.

Canada:

a 17-per-cent tax rate is applied to taxable income up to $35,000;
a 23-per-cent tax rate is applied to taxable income between $35,000 and $70,000; and
a 29-per-cent tax rate is applied to taxable income above $70,000.

Source.

We pay no tax on the first $8,000. (Some of these rates are being phased in by 2005.)

For the US:

Single filers
$7,001 - $28,400 15%
$28,401 - $68,800 25%
$68,801 - $143,500 28%
$143,501- $311,950 33%
$311,951 or more 35%

Source.

Canada does not set taxes according to marital status, although there are some financial breaks for married people. Analysis
The tax rate for lower-income Canadians is 15%, compared to 17% in the US. However, the first $8,000 of income is tax-free in Canada. That provides for a lower average rate.

Middle-income Canadians pay 23%, compared to 25% in the US.

Canadians earning more than $70k pay 29%, while Americans pay 28%. However, again, the first $8,000 of earnings is tax-free, so this should work out to be about the same.

I don't know if the US uses marginal or flat tax rates. In Canada, they are marginal.

Now, if you figure in public health and education, you might actually see some financial advantage to living here. There are social advantages too. But, more importantly, Canada has a balanced budget and is paying down its deficit, while the US is posting its all-time largest deficit. This may mean that we will be in a better position to maintain or lower tax rates over the next few years.

Re:Other needs

[easter1916]

But Australia, IIRC, has a population of less than 25 million people, so that comparison is utterly meaningless. Australia is doing much, much better.

Re:I wish that americans/euopeans would get past t

[joshmccormack]

Think about what is lacking out there that you can develop and sell.
Couldn't find the message cubicledrone was quoting on this, but I was amazed to read it. The only person who would say something like that is someone who hasn't been unemployed for long, and who thinks they haven't been because they're such a wonderful asset.

Let me caution you to be modest and wise. Develop your network, keep skills current. There are lots of smart, creative people who have been out of work for months and years. It's not a reflection on their abilities. Getting work can be hard, and being out of work drags you down in just about every way.

VA's push for Outsourcing

[NovaX]

Do you find VA software a strategic partner in your outsourcing ("offshoring") efforts? Did you know that they were a "relatively early adopter" of providing services to aid in this task?

Do you find it amusing that they try to stir up emotions by posting offshoring stories on slashdot to increase ad revenue from those hit hardest from outsourcing? Many readers voice their hatred of the act and are infact boosting the revenue of a company whose survival rests on the increased move of jobs to foriegn countries.

Do you consider VA Software to be a respectable organization?

VA Software Provides Better Governance For Offshore Outsourcing
VA Software Uses Own 'Offshoring' Experience to Tune Flagship Product for Hot Growth Market

Yeah, except for the fact that...

[IshanCaspian]

..the US produced the computer industry as it exists today, and were it not for the dot-com boom, the web as we know it today would not exist. The only reason so many untrained people over here were able to make so much money was because there was an amazing revolution going on. Poor investing aside, no one can argue that the US has not created the modern computing industry as it exists today, and we have years of experience going back to the days of the mainframes. India, on the other hand, appears to have contributed precisely jack shit to all of this, and it's very understandable that they're going to want to want a piece of the pie now that they can just go buy a book and pirate a copy of windows XP and take advantage of the American computer revolution. The US should implement protectionist policies immediately, much like those India is implementing to keep US programmers from competing with Indian workers for their own jobs. Considering it was the US' commitment to education and entrepreneurship that created this world of technology, we have every right to introduce legislation to stop corporate greed from giving the benefit to others.

Re:Yeah, except for the fact that...

[Oopsz]

New industry, same old arguments. Steelworkers said it, Detroit Auto said it, and now Techies are saying it.

Fact of the matter is, America isn't very good at keeping whats home-grown at home. It is good at pioneering new industries, however. The only difference is that IT has moved so fast that there hasn't been the generational drop like there was in past transitions; young qualified professionals are out of work, and they get airtime. No one wants to hear from old steel millers.

The solution isn't to be protectionist. The solution is to create something new. That's what America does.

Re:Yeah, except for the fact that...

[Aardpig]

..the US produced the computer industry as it exists today, and were it not for the dot-com boom, the web as we know it today would not exist.

While there is a degree of truth in your argument, let's not forget, for instance, that HTML/HTTP was invented in Europe, as was Linux.

Re:Yeah, except for the fact that...

[MoonBuggy]

Considering it was the US' commitment to education and entrepreneurship that created this world of technology, we have every right to introduce legislation to stop corporate greed from giving the benefit to others.

Disagreement to the parent aside, isn't it the greed of the US companies that are giving the jobs to India? The workers over there are happy to take the work they are offered and get what is considered decent pay there. The US companies are offering, it's not neccesarily the Indians 'stealing' the jobs.

Re:Yeah, except for the fact that...

[Saeed al-Sahaf]

"..the US produced the computer industry as it exists today, and were it not for the dot-com boom, the web as we know it today would not exist."

First, this statement has nothing to do with the subject, and is almost certainly a troll. Second, it represents a completely flawed US-centric view that that we "own" the Internet, and we "own" the right to a particular skill, and no one else should have it. For the most part, you are full of shit and have precisely the attitude that forces jobs to outsourcers.

Re:Yeah, except for the fact that...

[El]

The solution isn't to be protectionist. The solution is to create something new. That's what America does. Great idea! What should I create?

Re:Yeah, except for the fact that...

[jshift2work]

Did he say anywhere in that post that we owned anything? And i am dieing to here the explanation as to why that attitude forces jobs to outsource? He was just simply interjecting that it is true the american dot com boom did shape the tech world. for better or worse. hey whats that on your shoulder? ahh a chip i understand now.

Re:Yeah, except for the fact that...

[dustmite]

But if your argument is that people in other countries should not attempt to capitalize on inventions in other countries, then surely the same should apply, that the US should not attempt to capitalize on inventions from outside the US? Send back all that fiber optic cable to Britain, then, and all those CDs back to Japan and Holland.

You can't have it both ways.

Re:Yeah, except for the fact that...

[Thomas Miconi]

India, on the other hand, appears to have contributed precisely jack shit to all of this, and it's very understandable that they're going to want to want a piece of the pie now that they can just go buy a book and pirate a copy of windows XP and take advantage of the American computer revolution.

The computer was invented by a Brit and a Hungarian.

Until those fscking American thiefs stole it, that is.

( /sarcasm )

Thomas Miconi

Re:Yeah, except for the fact that...

[slimy_dude]

Yeah, except for the fact that Indians invented the number 0. Do you really want to play the game of preventing those who arrived second from being allowed to compete?

Re:Yeah, except for the fact that...

[Aardpig]

Yeah, and Unix, C, C++, Perl, ftp, Java, GNU, and just about everything else was developed in the USA. Your point?

Taking one example: C++ was invented by Bjarne Stroustrup, who is Danish. You, sir, are an idiot...

Re:Yeah, except for the fact that...

[IshanCaspian]

Considering that it's the US that invested all of this money in creating an environment that made the computer revolution possible, it's foolish now to allow the greed of American companies to squander it. Sure, all knowledge is eventually interrelated, but what I'm saying is that we can either keep tech dollars here and strengthen the economy and government that we rely on for our lives, or we can pillage our tax revenue and our consumer economy to benefit people living in India for corporate profits. It seems like a pretty simple choice to me.

Re:Yeah, except for the fact that...

[OldSchoolNapster]

Yeah, and Unix, C, C++, Perl, ftp, Java, GNU, and just about everything else was developed in the USA. Your point?
Taking one example: C++ was invented by Bjarne Stroustrup, who is Danish. You, sir, are an idiot...
...C++ was developed at Bell Laboratories in the United States.

Re:Yeah, except for the fact that...

[acceptera]

and were it not for the dot-com boom, the web as we know it today would not exist.

Oh no! The web as we know it wouldn't exist. Imagine a web without ads, popups, internet communities and all the other things that makes internetuse more stupidifying than watching TV. Sniff.

Re:Yeah, except for the fact that...

[dave420-2]

sieg heil, mein furhrer... jesus! Do you really think that way? Don't you think the computer revolution is a global thing? It benefits everyone around the world. By your thinking, the Brits should declare war on anyone who uses computers, as the first real computer was invented in the UK.

Your logic is horribly flawed, and only proves your xenophobia and insecurity.

Is there a lot of research and development jobs?

[AngryWookiee]

It is most often said, often by large companies that do a lot of outsourcing to India, that the only work being sent to India is boring repeative jobs like call center jobs and low end programming jobs. Is this true or is there a lot interesting high skilled research and development jobs being done over there by large American companies?

Caste system as applied to Americans?

[autophile]

I know Indians aren't supposed to say they believe in the caste system, but what percentage of Indians treat different castes according to that system? What percentage treat Americans, either bosses, peers, or customers, as casteless according to that system?

--Rob

Re:Caste system as applied to Americans?

[Oopsz]

eehh.. its kind of complicated. Strictly, no one cares about castes, but a lot of familial and community relations are centred around caste groups. Its kind of how an italian from brooklyn might go to an italian tailor and an italian bakery and an italian banker, in preference to ones owned by someone else. The caste system only applies to indians in that way, so outsiders aren't considered casteless, they're just considered outsiders.

In the technically minded (geeks), no one cares about caste. Depending on the liberality of your family, they might be concerned if you want to, like, marry out of the caste (In my family, they'd be more concerned about marrying someone with an incompatible astrological sign than out-caste).

Re:Indian Slashdot

[easter1916]

since they can't even speak english (ie. call centers)

Nor can you, apparently. "ie." [sic] is an abbreviation for the Latin "id est" and is correctly abbreviated as "i.e." It is always followed by a comma. It means "that is". So, would you please explain to me what you mean by "since they can't even speak english (that is call centers)"?

Re:MOD PARENT UP +9999999

[Tablizer]

That sums up the entire issue of outsourcing in a few sentences [techies are popular in India]. That is why the outsoucring problem, from a US perspective, is an intractable one.

No, it does not. There are plenty of skilled techies in the US loosing jobs. Real geeks don't care much about popularity anyhow.

Hmmm. I wonder if the middle class in India will start renting and "learning" from stupid US movies and TV shows, and geeks will then be prosecuted there also.

Re:Why are so many Indians in American CS programs

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm a U.S. born Indian (who has a Comp Eng degree).. and I also noticed a lot of Indians doing computer-related work. But then there are also a lot in the medical field. As one other person said, it is a cultural thing. But I don't think its limited to engineering/math. Indians place a high value on education, so you will see parents pushing their children to seek an education that will result in a well paying job. So that is an explaination for the large number of U.S. born (and Indian-born) Indians in these high-paying fields.

Also, for U.S. born Indians, many of the parents came to the U.S. on a work visa, meaning that they were most likely well-educated to be given that oportunity. And then they raise their children this way.

More Information Please!

[Vagary]

Why did the management degree fees go down? Does the government dictate tuition even for private universities? Or does India not have private universities?

In North America, very few families can afford to pay for their child's entire education, so either most Indian engineers are the children of rich families, or the universities are more heavily subsidised than here. Which is it?

How much better is an overseas technical degree perceived to be compared to India's best schools?

Re:Does the Indian 'caste' system affect your job

[Tablizer]

We have a caste system in the US also: PHB's, and people who do the actual work.

What other countries are outsourcing?

[AngryWookiee]

We all know that a lot of U.S. and U.K. companies are moving their jobs overseas. Are there also a lot of companies from other countries such as Canada, Australia, etc. moving jobs over there as well?

Please Clarify Your Terminology?

[Vagary]

Other than porting and optimization, software "results" should never need to be duplicated. That's the whole point of bits: once your "experiment" is successful, you ship it. So if people were to agree with you that novel software should not be outsourced, then almost no software would be outsourced.

Or are you talking about "process" as in a design process in which case you're suggesting something like: invent a development model at home, then outsource the applications of that model?

(It seems to me that you're trying to apply matter manufacturing philosophy to software and I'm just not getting it.)

Re:Please Clarify Your Terminology?

[Speare]

Depends on your core competency. If your core business is floral arrangement, you hire someone to "implement the website to spec." If your core business is user interface design, you hire someone to "implement the widgets to spec."

Your artists and HID experts design, their coders labor to develop the layout. Your dbas design, their application developers labor to develop the front end. Your hardware designers design, their device-driver authors labor to support the API.

Not all software design is novel and inventive and unique. And not all companies even care about software design at all. When you develop code, it might be novel to YOU as you tinker around, but you're probably not advancing the state of the art. Most software development jobs are predictable assemblies of the same stuff you assembled yesterday for another project.

It is a subtle distinction, but think about what you really want: if your goal isn't to implement it, but to have it implemented, then you might want to just hire someone who will slap together your Version 1.0 from recycled parts. And hire someone to turn your market advice into a better Version 2.0, using the profits from 1.0.

Re:I wish that americans/euopeans would get past t

[cubicledrone]

Now is the time to have numerous small companies.

Fine. Where do I get the capital? The bank? Please. What if I don't have any assets? Where do I go? What do I do?

It's not that simple.

By the way, I agree that starting a business is a good idea, but it is a massive MASSIVE amount of work.

Re:Interview Question: starting your own businesse

[frankmanowar]

I would imagine the influx of U.S. capital might bring some paychecks to those who wouldn't otherwise have them, which can perhaps help them do their own thing?

Sure nothing stops people from being innovative...except maybe not having a place to live or food to eat.

I agree that CroTeam is a great example of innovation, but you should take into account that U.S. companies hiring Indians by the thousands in increasing numbers puts money into their tech sector than previously existed!

Frank

Re:MOD PARENT UP +9999999

[be-fan]

The OP asked the question why there was such a disproportionate number of Indians in CS schools. The reason is that Indian culture makes them more inclined to go into CS. Consider your statement: "real geeks don't care much about popularity anyhow." Consider that out of the average population, 10% of people are "real geeks" who are willing to fight the social stigma and go into CS. Indians attach no such stigma to CS. Thus, > 10% of Indians will be willing to go into CS. Ergo, you have more Indians (many more, since the percentage is actually >> 10%) in CS relative to their share of the US population.

Re:MOD PARENT UP +9999999

[Oopsz]

Unlikely. Over there, the western obsession with looks versus intelligence (used loosely, indian education tends to emphasize rote learning rather than problem solving ability) is seen as somewhat amusing. Its culturally ingrained to respect and admire academic achievement. Hell, ask any american kids of indian parents, its how they're brought up, too.

Hypocracy

[kaffiene]

My Q:

Given that the US has reaped the benefit of capitalism for hundreds of years which has seen them (and the rest of the first world) exploit the third world ruthlessly, do you not find it hypocrytical that US IT workers are now complaining about receiving 'the back of the invisible hand'?

Re:Hypocracy

[Anonymous Coward]

Hypocracy means hypocrisy?
ok i will bite

Its always painful to see people affected adversely by the big corporations and governments. For example , farmers in India were committing suicides so that their family gets compensation from the goverment instead of dying of hunger. Whereas some of the farmers in the US undercut the farmers in developing countries with the help of subsidies from the US govt. And they buy their next SUV or a new shiny Hummer. Why don't slashdotters discuss this? Because you are in no way personally affected by it or its benefitting you. Coke and Pepsi ran over the local soft drinks industry in India. Walmart is opening, McDee is already there. So is Subway. Hollywood films collect millions of US dollars in India thereby undermining the local film industry(to some extent). Most of the programmers are in it for the money whether in the US or in India. So it doesn't make a difference. For a change, the global companies are enriching a poor country.

Would you buy a made in US iBook for $15,000 or will you buy the one from Taiwan for $1000?
What abt $2000 for your shiny iPod? Why should the companies pay $70k for a US programmer if they can get roughly the same work for $20k ? Should they be forced to employ ppl in the US? How would you feel if you are forced to shell out $10,000 for your next PC?
You can't have the cake and eat it too. Even in the US.

I don't get it...

[antdude]

Do Indians like cows or something?

Re:I don't get it...

[tommck]

Cows are sacred for Hindus...

Re:I don't get it...

[antdude]

Ah, thanks. I always thought the elephants were the ones sacred for Hindus.

Re:I don't get it...

[tommck]

I sense a new business opportunity!! Grey computer boxes with big floppy ears on them!

Corporate/Employe Governance & Contract Compli

[turtleshadow]

While your asking programmers you may actually run into a business savvy person.
Can you ask if the contract process between in-country versus international is percieved as a potential problem or benefit of Indian based shops.

Currently the ability for corporations/persons inside Europe and North America to effectively sue under both tort , contract breach, and ethics breach is breaking down. Internationalizing commercial software exacerbates the prosecution situation.

Do the programmers/managers/entrepreneurs you meet feel that India has an effective legislative and justice body to protect their personal and corporate rights? Does India has an effective system to adequately respond to international requests for justice?

Given the fact that International lawsuits are very expensive and hard to enforce judgements across boarders for big crimes (humanity, slavery, trafficing, fraud, etc) how are small companies everywhere going to CYA [cover your arse] their hard cash currancy investments in India development shops?

What is the India's stance on Copywrite enforcment?
It it foreseeable that a SCO like travisty would happen cross boarders. It is also foreseeable that a "legitamate" accusation as in the Racecad/alibre situation.

I also would like to see what would happen in cases like the IBM S.K. bribery case. How effectively are Indian companies and government actually enforcing fraud laws?

Have Indian shops ever been stiffed for non-payment, late payment, under payment by a non regional company [Europe, US]? What was the costs and outcome of legal recourse?

Unemployment Statistics are Misleading

[Vagary]

While I disagree with the grandparent that we should include all people without jobs in the unemployment rate, the way it is calculated now does ignore people who would like to have a job but are not actually looking. When people give up, the unemployment rate goes down -- does that really make sense?

Even worse is how fully employed workers are counted equally with underemployed (read: part-time when they want to be full-time) workers and temps. Part-time work is rarely enough income to be above the poverty level, yet the statistics treat these people as if they're just fine.

The fact is: more than 5.7% of the population is unhappy with their employment status.

Re:Does the Indian 'caste' system affect your job

[Oopsz]

People who don't believe in cross-caste interaction will *not* be working in IT.

Russia will not be like India

[asternick]

I cannot see Russia grabbing so many jobs. Doing business in a country like Russia is extremely difficult. Consider the rampant gangsterism, alcoholism, and an economy choked by industrial-revolution era robber barons. Unless Russia straightens out their problems they will not amount to much in the world economy.

Re:How well/badly are Indian techies regarded ther

[HungWeiLo]

Not a stereotype: I've got a Bangladeshi mom :)

I had a class project partner in school who was Bangladeshi, and I didn't need a watch, because she would call him precisely at 9:00pm, 10:00pm, 11:00pm, etc. right on the tick. Actually, that is if he's lucky enough to stay past the 5:00pm dinner time "curfew."

Higher importance placed on courtesy vs. ability?

[ezraekman]

As more and more companies outsource their tech-support and customer service, I've noticed a common problem. While they are polite to the extreme, their technical knowledge is dismal. And unfortunately, it's not just about a particular product or service. It seems that their knowledge in my entire subject of inquiry is lacking.

Don't get me wrong; I think exemplary customer service is a good thing. But there is such a thing as taking it too far. Repeating everything I say verbatim gets very frustrating when the only inevitable response is "One moment while I look into this for you" and then being placed on hold while someone else is consulted, who may or may not have the answer.

It seems that the ability to treat every customer with kid gloves is down to an art over there. But is this at the cost of having adequate knowledge to actually solve a problem?

Um, nope, nope and nope...

[Slashamatic]

unless you deal with some of the Americans there who try to out mafiya the mafiya.

There problem is that they make so much from natural resources that they are already significant in the world economy. The difficulty is that they need to move more in to manufacturing to employ more people and force a better law of contract.

Are American citizens allowed to work in India?

[woody188]

Just trying to clear up something that I heard. I read somewhere that American citizens were not allowed to work in India for an Indian owned company. Is this true?

If this is true, how can outsourcing companies like Wipro continue to say that outsourcing is great for the American economy, while working in a society that is essentially closed to the same outsourcing? Wouldn't India benefit from outsourcing to a less developed (cheap labor) economy in the Far East?

Re:Are American citizens allowed to work in India?

[$exyNerdie]

I read somewhere that American citizens were not allowed to work in India for an Indian owned company. Is this true?

This is Completely FALSE. American work visa system is much more restrictive and requires more minimum qualifications versus Indian system. A commpn aspect of both American and Indian work visa system is that you need to find an employer (job offer) to sponsor your work visa application. Everything else is much more restrictive (like in US, the H1-B worker has to have a bchelor's degree and has to be paid at least the prevailing wage for that kind of job).

I would urge you to do a thorough study of requirements for work visa in US versus work visa in India. You will notice that requirements are much more restrivtive for US work visa.

Try this website for Employment Visa to work in India.

Another website has details (read the "Points to note" section at the bottom of page) of taking employment visa in India.

CS or IT?

[dfj225]

As a CS major, I often worry how many jobs will be available for me once I graduate. However, I have a hard time believing that all tech jobs are going to India. What types of projects does the typical Indian firm get? Do they mainly do websites/server programming (PHP, MySQL, Java) or do they get asked to write full applications or do complex scientific work? Upon graduation I hope to work in a job that does the latter and I hope they still exist in America.

Re:Why are so many Indians in American CS programs

[pommiekiwifruit]

Indian culture glorifies engineering and math study.

And being a doctor. Just look at the National Health Service in Britain for examples.

Re:WHY DO THEY SMELL SO BAD? IS IT CURRY? NO HYGEN

[stridebird]

Hygiene. I think you meant hygiene. Hardly worth pointing it out to you I fear, but I was cruising this thread at Ignorance +5 so I have a duty. Wittlessly, you make the point for off-shoring your job. I hope you like flipping burgers...

How Long til India outsourcing is too much $$?

[poopie]

So, every company in the US is scrambling to appease their stockholders by changing their cost structures by outsourcing to India.

Problem is, that India is not a endless supply of skilled programmers or workers, and the choice facilities with 1st world infrastructure are very limited.

Land and people are getting more expensive in India by the day.

At some point in the near future, it will no longer be cost competetive to move jobs to India, and other countries will start eating India's "Outsourcing lunch".

How long until outsourcing to India stops being a cost-saving proposition?? 2 Years? 5 Years? ??

Doesn't the law of entropy dictate that eventually everyone's wage will eventually lower or raise to the same point?

Re:I wish that americans/euopeans would get past t

[WindBourne]

Fine. Where do I get the capital? The bank? Please. What if I don't have any assets? Where do I go? What do I do?

Work with some of the business ppl. I had the same trouble. It has been a nightmare since I do not talk their lingo. In fact, with the current start-up I have 2 partners; 1 is a young but good business man and the others is a very good salesman. This is needed to get the capital. As to assets, I have not put any up.

By the way, I agree that starting a business is a good idea, but it is a massive MASSIVE amount of work

I have been doing 80 hr work weeks for the last year. 50 on the regular job (a different start-up that I code for) and 20-40 for for mine.

You can do it. It is hard work, but the easy jobs are gone. The trick here is that we have to take back (win, perhaps) the business back. All those nice jobs that we developed for the large companies are gone.

Raising required minimum pay standards

[erroneus]

Okay, I have heard many ideas "cloaked in fairness" actually intended to shut down the notion of H1-B visas.

Why do companies want to use them? Simple-- to save money. It's never been a mystery despite how people want to lie about it. The desire to outsource? It's the same reason: "The Bottom-line."

So while I have read in previous articles that Indian IT workers actually argue that it's not the pay-cost-savings, but the quality of the work that is winning large contracts in India. So I would like an honest bit of feedback on this burning question:

If the U.S. lawmakers were pushed to write legislation that requires that outsourced labor earn 10% over American "fair-market" wages, would that be something you could get behind? Or if you think 10% more is too much for better quality, how about Equal to American "fair-market" wages for the same work? If you think that such law would threaten your current employment status, I think the argument about "quality" doesn't quite pass the acid test.

Sure, this is an embittered question, but it's one that demands honesty rather than a whole lot of flag waving. I think it's great for India and Pakistan that they have a resource that is working for them -- their people. I think it's great that thousands of people are rising above the poverty line! I want global economic improvement just as much as the next guy and possibly even more. But I don't think it requires that the U.S. economy suffers in order to improve another part of the world.

In fact, I'd go so far as to suggest that any benefit that requires the failure of the U.S. economy would do so much more to harm the global economy that any improvement to other parts of the world wouldn't be enough to balance it all out and we'd be looking at a global economic crisis.

To illustrate my point, look at what happened to the entire Asian economy when Japan was going through its banking crisis. When the economic super-power that is Japan was suffering, it threatened not only to reduce it to ruins but to take all of asia down with it.

Consider that the U.S. currently holds the largest international consumer base in teh world. We buy stuff from EVERYWHERE ... I'd go do far as to say stuff from everywhere EXCEPT here. (READ: Trade deficit) What happens to the global economy when our consumers can no longer afford to buy stuff? The rest of the supplying world will suffer threatening global ruin to all nations who depend on exports to the U.S.

So not only are we taking U.S. dollars all but completely out of U.S. circulation in the U.S. never to return (because who BUYS anything from the U.S.? We're in a trade deficit with almost every nation we trade with!) buy buying labor overseas, but we're losing jobs in the U.S. which results in decreased buying power of our consumers!

This is no longer merely a threat of trading off our manufacturing and buying more from overseas, but this is a situation that has the potential of destroying our consumer base which would ultimately crash the world economy as far as countries supplying manufactured goods to the U.S.

American renewal

[amightywind]

China and India have slowed down the Japanese economy, and now they're banging on your door guys. Time to get used to 10+% unemployment, like the rest of us.

How ridiculous. Japan has had slow growth for 12 years because it took a very long time to resolve the banking crisis brought on by a the 1990's real estate market bubble. This has nothing to do with India or China. You have 10% unemployment in Europe because the high levels of business taxation, regulation, and social spending keep entrepreneurship and job growth low. The US jettesoned that baggage when Reagan was elected and the conservatives came to power. Your domestic consumption is also relatively low. You don't buy lots of cars and TV's. You don't have high rates of immigration.

We had 6% unemployment in the U.S. at the depths of a resession. Not great for those who are out of work, but not bad by historical comparison.

As China and India emerge economically there are bound to be employment pressures due to low wages. Manufacturing is being wrecked, and white collar workers are being displaced. The flip side is lower prices for those who earn a paycheck, and greater profits for U.S. companies (and stockholders). The hardcore unemployed will gradually shift to new occupations. Painful, yes. We are the United Fucking States, we will not be down for long.

Re:American renewal

[ozric99]

You have 10% unemployment in Europe because the high levels of business taxation, regulation, and social spending keep entrepreneurship and job growth low

Europe is a continent - a collection of member states, not a country. It's pointless quoting statistics like unemployment figures Europe-wide. For the record, according to the UK Office for National Statistics the proportion of the population of working age out of work and seeking unemployment-related benefits was 2.4%. :)

Re:American renewal

[easter1916]

A very valid point. Americans see the EU as an homogenous mass, when it is in fact a grouping of nation-states cooperating or competing in a common market (current federalist thrusts notwithstanding). Irish unemployment ~4.5%. French ~9%, German ~10%. It varies wildly.

Re:Does the Indian 'caste' system affect your job

[PaneerParantha]

(The following is a generalization)
The caste system may affect a lot of other things, but in my experience it doesn't affect your job. In Indian offices it is routine to see Sharmas (Pundits), working together with Rajputs (Kshtariyas or warriors) and Guptas (banias or traders).

People have all sorts of problems with each other, but rarely do you find someone saying that the other person is an a&&hole because he/she belongs to a different caste. They may privately attribute it to his/her different religion, if that person belongs to a different religion, especially if s/he belongs to a religion that's bashed about a lot these days.

Notice that I left out the lowest caste, the shudras. I have never seen people of other castes mingling with them openly or having lunch with them.

Job opportunities for westerners.

[gnalle]

The readers of slashdot often disagree on how easy it is for a westerner to get a job in the indian software industry. What is your take on this? How easy is it to get visa for more than half a year? Have you met many westerners who worked in india, employed by an indian company?

I agree and disagree with you

[Anonymous Coward]

Thanks for your opinion. I certainly can't blame Indians for being upset with the US for backing Pakistan (this is coming from an American). It obviously is an arrangement of convenience for both sides.

I don't view religion conversion as evil though, so long as it is voluntary (unlike what some settlers did to Native Americans in the US 100-200 years ago). It certainly isn't evil like the suicide bombers' version of conversion (which is "You aren't a Muslim. You die."). I'd take people trying to convert me because they honestly care about me over people trying to blow me up any day.

Note: I know that all Muslims aren't like that, only a few fanatics. But show me where Christians or any other religious followers are blowing themselves up in the name of their faith for the purpose of killing people who presumably aren't of their faith. At worst with the Evangelical Christians is they'll nag you to death trying to get you to convert. Boy that sure is evil of them.

If you were an evangelical, then you would believe that nonbelievers are going to go to hell. Some other religions have similar views. However, evangelicals have the strong belief that it is their duty to try to convince others to have similar beliefs as themselves so that they won't go to hell. So you tell me which is more evil: Believing that others are going to hell and doing nothing to stop them; or believing that others are going to hell unless you do something to help them and actively doing something about it. I'm not an evangelical, but I can certainly understand their motives and recognize that it isn't evil. If a Muslim or Hindu were trying to convert me to their religion, I wouldn't view that as evil either.

PPS: Posting as A/C since this is off topic and would likely be moderated as flame bait, even though I'm simply expressing my opinions in nearly the most Politically Correct way that I can.

Re:I agree and disagree with you

[Josuah]

But show me where Christians or any other religious followers are blowing themselves up in the name of their faith for the purpose of killing people who presumably aren't of their faith.

Well, certain Christian groups will certainly kill people who they disagree with: see abortion clinic assassinations. From one viewpoint, this is even less respectable than suicide bombers, since you aren't willing to die for your beliefs.

I also don't think the suicide bombers are interested in converting anyone. Their objective is different, and so it doesn't make as much sense to compare it to the evanglistic efforts of Christians.

As well, historically Christians have done some horrible things that were sanctioned, encouraged, or even run by the Church. Of course, that's in the past, but I still have a severe lack of respect for the Catholic Church when they do not seem to regret or apologize for those things, and I would not trust the Church to put my interests ahead of their own.

Back to the evangelistic efforts, I don't think any religious organization has pushed themselves on others are hard as Christians. I don't remember anyone except Christians pretending to be my friend until it was clear I wasn't interested in converting. Or any Buddhist or Muslim religious flyers on my doorstep. Christians also seem to be the only ones telling me I'm going to burn in hell forever. Doesn't seem very nice of them.

Re:I agree and disagree with you

[Anonymous Coward]

I also don't think the suicide bombers are interested in converting anyone.

That wasn't my point. I was trying to compare and contrast two so called "evils." Christians STRONGLY feel that Muslim suicide bombers are evil incarnate (not only are they commiting the worse sin in Christianity AFAIK (suicide), they are killing numerous innocents in the process). Saying that trying to voluntarily convert people is evil compared to this seems extremely hollow and hypocritical to me.

Re:I agree and disagree with you

[Anonymous Coward]

At worst with the Evangelical Christians is they'll nag you to death trying to get you to convert. Boy that sure is evil of them.

Thats not how its done everywhere. In tribal and backward areas in India where even basic necessities are scarce, there have been a large number of cases where the churches have lured people with the temptation of food and clothing (funded from western contributions) rather than on the merits of the ideology. Forcing conversions under such circumstances is definitely wrong and equally objectionable. I have personally read comic books distributed among poor children by evangelical christian organizations in India that had stories which showed Jesus is a good light while some other God as being fake or cruel. (Almost something like Jesus kicks XYZ Gods ass!)

I personally believe that any religion is capable of creating fanatics. I havent read it myself, but I have heard that the Old Testament also contains some very fanatical teachings.. Chrisitianity also has had its share of corrupt and fanatical practises in Europe during 14th 15th centuries.. Another example, Sikhism, one of the most beautiful and genteel religions gave rise to the Sikh terrorists during the mid 80s in India.

My take on the whole issue: Lets not try to solve the problem by concentrating on the religion but on the people instead. It is counter productive to say that religion X is inherently bad since history tells us that almost all religions have at some point or the other seemed fanatical. (Disclaimer: I am a Hindu myself and we have our own share of Hindu fundamentalism to deal with, even though our religion does not stipulate the need to use violence to assert our religious identity.)

With reference to your Hindu conversion statement, some information... Hinduism does not have a concept of conversion: The only way to be a Hindu is to be born as one. Of course you can practise the Hindu way of life on a personal level. Hindu conversions that you might have heard of are retaliatory movements started in the last 5-10 years by fanatic Hindus in response to the Islamic and Christian conversions in India.)

Re:I agree and disagree with you

[Anonymous Coward]

At worst with the Evangelical Christians is they'll nag you to death trying to get you to convert.

No, some of the missionary work is based on extortion. They only help you if you become a Christian. Other examples are refusing to help people in the face of a terrible threat, by not distributing condoms in Africa and speaking out against them. This is especially evil when they lie about condoms (that they help to spread AIDS for instance).

So you tell me which is more evil: Believing that others are going to hell and doing nothing to stop them; or believing that others are going to hell unless you do something to help them and actively doing something about it.

Strongly believing something without any proof does not excuse unethical behaviour.

Re:I agree and disagree with you

[Sinterklaas]

There's a world of difference between the Kami Kaze suicide fighters of WW2 who gave their lives against military targets and ones who simply bomb anyone who is opposed to their beliefs (whether they be women, children or even bystanders who even share the beliefs of the bomber).

That is highly debatable. When you have little chance of hurting your opponent and surviving it, you might as well choose a suicide attack. When even that doesn't work against the military, why not attack the civilian population? It makes perfect sense if you are desperately struggling against an oppressor. Japan simply never had that option since they could never target the US mainland (or at least not later in the war). We do know that Japan had extremely little respect for human lives at that time, they killed millions of forced laborers by working them to death*. I don't think they would have had any moral hesitations about killing US civilians.

*http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/SOD.CHAP3.HTM

Did any of those Kami Kaze pilots look forward to their own demise?

They did what they were told (for the most part). You mustn't forget that Japanese people do not tend to be individualists. Honor and the well-being of the group to whome they belong is very important. Schoolkids learn about the samurai who avenged their master's death and then committed (honorable) suicide. Furthermore, suicide is quite common in Japan. In the US, people are much more likely to strike at other when they feel at the end of their rope (Columbine & many other shootings by disgruntled people), in Japan people kill themselves in similar situations.

This also relates directly to your next point: ...suicide bombers clearly don't value life as much as others and even seem eager to blow themselves up.

This is more of a cultural issue. The US Rangers have got the motto "leave no man behind". This means that they will risk their lives to get everyone, even dead bodies, back home. You can make the point that this also means that those soldiers don't value life. Why else would they risk the group for one individual, even worse, one who cannot be saved.

Do you understand that this is totally foreign to people from a culture in which the collective is very important?

As for history, it is commonly held that the Muslim religion is still in its "dark age" period while it is concurrently recognized that Christianity has long since emerged from its dark ages.

The allies attacked 'almost completely random civilian targets' when they believed that air raids on military targets were unsuccessful. Is that enlightened? And how civilized was the use of the atomic bomb to attack two cities filled with civilians? Then I haven't started yet on crimes committed by the nazi's.

It's hard to argue that Christians are any more civilized from a military perspective.

Your last paragraph refers to my original question of whether it would be better to believe that others are going to hell and doing nothing about it or having that same belief and doing something about it. Just because a person doesn't tell you that you're going to burn in hell doesn't mean they don't believe it. How on earth is that nicer than trying to save you?

I'm afraid that people will try to save me/civilization/the world/whatever by hurting other people. It has happened so many times in the past that beliefs and ideologies have led people to commit the most horrendous crimes. I'd rather have those people appreciate that others might differ in opinion and do not want to be forcibly 'saved' (or sacrificed).

Behaving unethically based on your belief/ideology is very dangerous. One can easily slide into extremism this way.

-- The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

Re:I agree and disagree with you

[joggle]

First off: good response! I still mostly disagree with you but that certainly was a well formed counter point. Thanks.

When you have little chance of hurting your opponent and surviving it, you might as well choose a suicide attack. When even that doesn't work against the military, why not attack the civilian population?

I think Gandhi may have something to say about that. Clearly, even in very difficult situations there are still peaceful alternatives which may prove effective. Besides, what on earth are the suicide bombers' military objective? Do they honestly expect the Israelis to capitulate by using methods to terrorize and infuriate them?! No, they only have the selfish desire to kill for their own glory, getting to heaven, and terrorizing their enemy. At least Gandhi was playing to win.

Heck, we are living in a world undergoing globalization. The Palestinian-Israeli conflict clearly is not happening in a vacuum. If the Palestinians had continued to suffer without declaring the second Intifada, then they would be generating more and more sympathy in the West (and the Middle East as well) to their cause, leading to more pressure on Israel to improve their relations with the Palestinians. Gandhi knew that an outright struggle with Britain would have lead to countless deaths on both sides and would have sullied the relationship between the two nations. So he chose to lead by example and organized some of the most effective peace protests ever (relying heavily on worldwide opinion, especially that of British citizens). The Palestinians are having the opposite effect, hardening feelings both of Israel supporters and those of people who formally were sympathetic to their cause.

I still feel that the Japanese valued life, namely their own. However, as you pointed out, they would also kill themselves out of their honor code. This seems to be the biggest difference between the Japanese and Palestinian cultures to me. The Japanese in WW2 clearly still followed their honor code to some degree (clearly, their honor code only applied to Japanese opponents--what can I say, they were pretty f'd up at the time). However, as far as I can tell, the Palestinian attackers aren't following any honor or moral code at all. Worst of all they are teaching their children that it is OK to hate and loath and do anything to kill "the enemy," whoever they may be. And they are having as many children as possible simply for the purpose of using them as human bombs and bullets against "the enemy." This is about as far away from Gandhi's philosophy as a culture can get, and in my opinion also about as depraved and as low as a culture can achieve as well. In a way, anarchy would even be a higher cultural standard.

And how civilized was the use of the atomic bomb to attack two cities filled with civilians?

This was an action to take the least of two evils and one that even the Japanese don't generally hold against the US (for the reason that they started the war against us in the first place). The only other alternative at the time was to invade Japan, killing many on both sides. BTW, the fire-bombing of Tokyo killed many more people than these two bombs combined yet somehow that is more 'fair' than these two nukes? Also, the cities that were destroyed were producing most of the equipment and ships for the Japanese fleet. So rather than destroying the ancient capital of Japan (Kyoto), they chose to attack two industrial zones. It also abruptly ended the war, saving who knows how many POWs and the people in the Japanese slave worker camps. The Nazis, on the other hand, clearly weren't a Christian organization. They played some lip service to being Catholics early in the war, but that's it as far as I can tell.

I never said that being "forcibly 'saved'" was OK. I clearly said "voluntarily converted" which is not the same thing. If the worst that Christians are doing now (in the name of their faith) is pestering you to convert, it still can't compare to the worst that some Muslims are d

Re:I agree and disagree with you

[Sinterklaas]

I think Gandhi may have something to say about that. Clearly, even in very difficult situations there are still peaceful alternatives which may prove effective.

I didn't say I agree, but I do understand why people act like this. Of course, I would like people to be wiser, but Gandhi is so famous for a reason: he is an exception.

Besides, what on earth are the suicide bombers' military objective? Do they honestly expect the Israelis to capitulate by using methods to terrorize and infuriate them?! No, they only have the selfish desire to kill for their own glory, getting to heaven, and terrorizing their enemy. At least Gandhi was playing to win.

Of course, you can say mostly the same about Israel. They use collective punishment extensively (unfair treatment at checkpoints, destroying private property of innocents & people who have not been convicted for any crimes and extensive harassment in general). Another awful method is simply assassinating people (often with innocent victims as well). The official policy is to weaken the Palestinian leadership whenever possible (and then claim that they aren't stopping terrorism) and to create 'facts on the ground'. The latter means that at every new negotiation there are more problems to solve and that Israel offers even less to the Palestinians.

So how is this playing to win? IMHO, both sides are desperately trying not to lose, which explains the death spiral they are locked into.

The Palestinians are having the opposite effect, hardening feelings both of Israel supporters and those of people who formally were sympathetic to their cause.

Well, Israel could also have chosen a far less agressive and more sympathetic route. I think that the biased US media have taught you to look at this in a very one-sided way, but I really don't think that only one party is to blame in this conflict.

I still feel that the Japanese valued life, namely their own.

I disagree, unless 'own' means the Japanese people in general. At that time, Japanese soldiers were taught that they had to be loyal to the emperor, similar to the samurai's obligation to his master (which goes much, much further than simple servitude). I still think the Japanese culture is very f*cked up. Germany really changed after WWII and repented for their crimes, but Japan still finds it hard to apologize for their misdeeds.

However, as you pointed out, they would also kill themselves out of their honor code. This seems to be the biggest difference between the Japanese and Palestinian cultures to me.

Honor is usually a (somewhat) refined form of collective morals, found in societies without a centralized body of law and a good justice system. Palestine is simply too young to have developed a common honor system, but they may be guided by certain moral obligations (just like Iraqi's may revenge a killed clan member, if they aren't compensated).

Anyway, I don't why it's better to kill someone because of honor, instead of deciding for yourself that it is the right thing to do.

Clearly, their honor code only applied to Japanese opponents

No, they applied their honor code to the western soldiers too. According to their military code, a soldier should fight until death or commit suicide if they have lost (in the beginning of the war, almost no Japanese soldiers surrendered). POWs were treated especially harshly because they didn't follow this honor code (and 'cheated' death).

Worst of all they are teaching their children that it is OK to hate and loath and do anything to kill "the enemy," whoever they may be.

Israel is doing the same thing. Ron Furer wrote a book about it.

And they are having as many children as possible simply for the purpose of using them as human bombs and bullets against "the enemy."

This is pure FUD. There is no evidence that Palestinians get many children for that purpose.

[...] about as depraved and

Re:I agree and disagree with you

[joggle]

So how is this playing to win? IMHO, both sides are desperately trying not to lose, which explains the death spiral they are locked into.

You are correct in that the Israelis aren't truly playing to win either. It seems to me that they are, at best, playing for a stalemate. I have no idea what their long-term ambitions are other than protecting the land they're already occupying. However, so long as the main Palestinian militant group (Hamas) has the stated position of essentially driving the Israelis into the sea, never even proposing more than a temporary truce, and has the support of the Palestinians this conflict will never end as far as I can tell.

You have to admit that the Israelis are in a difficult spot just as the Palestinians are. The Israelis are occupying a rather small area compared to most nations and, like the Palestinians, have nowhere else to go. They are surrounded by people who would like nothing more than simply wiping them off from the face of the earth. There is not a way to punish a suicide bomber after the fact and difficult to stop them before hand, so what would you have them do? And PLEASE don't tell me that simply having them back out of Gaza and the West Bank will miraculously solve all of the problems. Also, remember that this Second Intifada was caused by the slightest provocation (Sharon visiting the Temple Mount, boy that sure is something worth sacrificing thousands of lives to prevent).

I think that the biased US media have taught you to look at this in a very one-sided way, but I really don't think that only one party is to blame in this conflict.

I rarely watch the local news and don't have cable, so it would be unfair to blame American media that I don't watch. I keep track of the news via the web, using google news and reading various blogs by people living in the relevant regions. There is no bias when I say that the Palestinians are loosing sympathy in the West as there is some evidence proving that this is likely. For instance, the Palestinians are getting significantly less financial support from Europe and the US than it was during the Clinton years. The scene of dozens of Palestinians dancing in the streets the day after 9/11 was seen by many in the US. Not surprisingly, this had a negative effect on many Americans' good will towards these people (not to mention that they loved Saddam, which doesn't sit well with Americans, much less Iraqis).

This is pure FUD. There is no evidence that Palestinians get many children for that purpose.

No it isn't. I was paraphrasing a direct quote from a Palestinian woman. They ARE trying to have as many children as possible, resulting in one of the most densly populated areas on earth. They aren't exactly shy about this, so I presume you haven't even tried to keep track of what the Palestinians have been saying during the last couple of years.

The Palestinian organizations aren't religious either (although the members are), so your argument that Muslims are still in the dark ages doesn't fly either if you don't accept my viewpoint.

No, the Palestinian organizations ARE religious as a matter of fact (although there are a couple that are nonsecular). Hamas is certainly a religous militant group with very religous followers. The Nazis, on the other hand, were essentially a nonsecular organization with mostly nonsecular members (they certainly weren't fervently Christian, not even close).

If you accept that an attack on a mostly civilian target can be justified, it becomes very hard to argue against such things as suicide bombers.

How many civilians were going to die in an all-out invasion of Japan, esp. when you consider all the propaganda they had been fed from the start? They were told to fight/die/commit suicide rather than give up, otherwise they would face consequences worse than death. The circumstances under which these two nukes were used were very extraordinary and hasn't occured since for a good reason. After the war, the US then

Re:I agree and disagree with you

[Sinterklaas]

However, so long as the main Palestinian militant group (Hamas) has the stated position of essentially driving the Israelis into the sea, never even proposing more than a temporary truce, and has the support of the Palestinians this conflict will never end as far as I can tell.

Hamas has grown over time to be far more important in no small part because of Israel's policy of marginalizing the Palestinian Authorities. If you face a group who cannot be bargained with, the proper strategy is to weaken them, not to strengthen them by attacking a more moderate group. Israel has done the latter, which pretty much guarantees a continued conflict.

Many Palestinians support Hamas because they are desperate. Those people can be won back to a peaceful solution if they believe that peace can be achieved (on reasonable terms). The difficult part is to give them new hope (which cannot be done by a Palestinian organization on its own).

The Israelis are occupying a rather small area compared to most nations and, like the Palestinians, have nowhere else to go.

Israel is very strong militarily and if the survival of Israel is at stake, I think that they would probably get support from at least the US. Besides, quite a few of its citizens have dual nationality AFAIK. The Palestines are worse off in every respect (less territory, really no place to go, few natural resources (water), little military strength and no strong allies).

There is not a way to punish a suicide bomber after the fact and difficult to stop them before hand, so what would you have them do?

You push towards peace even harder. Every time Israel stops the negotiations, assassinates someone or closes the borders in retaliation, they strengthen Hamas. It is folly to think that the proper response to violence is to strike back as hard as you can. If both parties do that, continued escalation is inevitable. Believing that the other party will give up their tactics, while you cannot imagine doing that yourself, is pretty illogical.

Choosing the path of peace is incredibly difficult however. It's sad that Rabin died because he did not only understand that the death spiral had to be broken, but he also had the strength of leadership to do so.

And PLEASE don't tell me that simply having them back out of Gaza and the West Bank will miraculously solve all of the problems.

Restoring faith will require concessions. Once upon a time the Palestinian Authorities where taking control of Gaza and the West Bank, building up a police force, trying to get the economy into gear. Building up a country from scratch takes time and money, but Israel got impatient and started attacking the PA. I still think that peace could have been achieved if Israel was more supportive of the nation building going on.

Of course, the same thing can be done again, based on a truce with Hamas and extensive support from EU & US. Unfortunately, people often lack the stamina that is required for long term solutions (especially in todays world where we go from hype to hype).

Sharon visiting the Temple Mount, boy that sure is something worth sacrificing thousands of lives to prevent

It was a highly deliberate provocation when tensions were running high. The Temple Mount is very important to Muslims and the visit was a strong claim to the site. Of course, you cannot simply claim that the intifada was intended to keep Sharon away. The visit was the last drop that convinced the Palestinian leaders that peace with Israel was not possible.

BTW, I read something interesting about Temple Mount, but I cannot confirm it.

There is no bias when I say that the Palestinians are loosing sympathy in the West as there is some evidence proving that this is likely.

My impression is that in Europe, people are becoming more critical of Israel, although that doesn't mean that support is growing

Re:I agree and disagree with you

[dizfactor]

I also don't think the suicide bombers are interested in converting anyone. Their objective is different, and so it doesn't make as much sense to compare it to the evanglistic efforts of Christians. This is important. Most media outlets misrepresent the activities of Islamic terrorists as being primarily religious, when they really aren't. Islamic terrorism needs to be understood as a primarily political tool of resistance to US/Israeli political and economic domination. Religion is what provides a sense of comfort and morale boost to jihadis, but it's not their objective to simply kill non-Muslims for religious reasons. It's their objective to overthrow what they perceive as political oppression (and, frankly, legitimately so) by the only tools available to them.

I find it to be so

[Srividya]

But I have never been anywhere else.

American Mythology

[lysium]

Time to get used to 10+% unemployment, like the rest of us.

No no, that will never happen. As many here on Slashdot here will tell you, America's free market capitalism and dislike of hand-outs will prevent this from happening. Don't ask how -- its simply self-regulating!

Besides, around 9 of your 10% will be in jail on drug charges, anyway........

==-----------==

Re:American Mythology

[sdcharle]

Besides, around 9 of your 10% will be in jail on drug charges, anyway........

And those prisoners who can program will do so for 23 cents an hour, opening new opportunities for the Fastows and Waksals as they themselves finish serving their prison terms! Hooray! Everything comes full circle!

Are you making plans for a new customer base?

[ciggieposeur]

Everyone seems to assume that US-based corporations will always have the upper hand in deciding how to control the job market, i.e. the jobs may move but the owners remain American. I don't agree.

I believe that eventually the large American firms will run out of US dollars to pay for jobs after we reach double-digit unemployment and the US-dollar-paying customer base is unable to continue purchasing what are essentially "luxury" goods.

Do the Indian companies share my belief? If not, why not? If so, are they making any plans to survive the permanent collapse of the American firms?

Re:BSD in India

[aacool]

Now it's called BSE - and actually there have been no BSE cases in India, IMO

Re:These new jobs of yours..

[aacool]

moron - that's call centers only - tech jobs - coders, designers, etc can be called anything for all you care - Incidentally take a look at the developers of Adobe or any other project and try to spot the Indian-sounding names - not hard - there are so many.

Further, the call center workers use pseudonyms only because of the insular, cretinous American customers they service who think everyone should be named Bill, Harry or Jack

Impending disaster for the U.S.

[Corpus_Callosum]

Disagreement to the parent aside, isn't it the greed of the US companies that are giving the jobs to India? The workers over there are happy to take the work they are offered and get what is considered decent pay there. The US companies are offering, it's not necessarily the Indians 'stealing' the jobs.

I think what the original poster was saying was that the technology economy was an American invention, that lack of measures to HEAVILY tax/tarrif outsourcing of science/engineering jobs related to technology has resulted in a hole in the economy (that is hemmoraging money and jobs), that companies will always exploit these holes to their own advantage (regardless of consequences) and it is the duty of the government to plug these holes when they appear.

I tend to agree.

Technology, specifically the Internet, has made this type of outsourcing possible. Economies have never before had to cope with the problem of exporting their most elite jobs to third-world countries. It was unthinkable for a very large number of reasons, but unthinkable wouldn't stop it from happening - greed would have still made it happen. It was impossible because of logistics. The Internet has changed "impossible" into "viable". It is now time that we take a good look at our economy and ask ourselves some difficult questions for the first time in history. We need to ask ourselves if we are willing to let our megacorps become more profitable by exporting the cream of our economy to third-world nations, decimating our middle-class in the process.

Don't let yourself believe that it stops at IT jobs and call-centers either. Those are just the easiest to do. You can also outsource accounting, actuarial services, risk management, investment/brokerage research, etc. etc. etc.

All knowledge jobs are subject to export and will eventually, in fact, be exported, unless governmental measures are taken.

We will be left with a completely first-person service economy and a bunch of doctors (first-person) and lawyers (god knows, they will figure out a way to ensure that the legal profession is not outsourcable). Anyone care to guess the US GDP after this acquiesces?

Re:Impending disaster for the U.S.

[smithy242]

What is the source of greed? The American Corporation looking for a better bottom-line and competing in the American Free-Market Economy, or the Worker who wishes protectionist policies to ensure their role in the labour market does not change. . .

This "outsourcing" is also a key source of income for the people and families of India, who also need food, drinking water, healthcare, etc. If we continue to live in excess while the poorest nations are not given a hands-up, this will only lead to further class strife and conflict.

Way back in 1996, when I first started college, I chose the path of Networking and Hardware over Software Engineering. Many fellow students questioned why, and the answer was simple -- information has no borders with the Internet -- there's always someone else out there who can write an end if statement. It is only a matter of time before all applications are web-based with the back-end in (insert Country here) and the dumb terminals at everyone's desks.

I will take the middle-ground on this issue. I work in I.T., and have seen the market collapse, nonetheless. Uncertainty lies ahead, and we must be willing to conquer these issues as workers, families, and corporations -- but protectionist legislation is not the answer.

Re:Impending disaster for the U.S.

[Corpus_Callosum]

I will take the middle-ground on this issue. I work in I.T., and have seen the market collapse, nonetheless. Uncertainty lies ahead, and we must be willing to conquer these issues as workers, families, and corporations -- but protectionist legislation is not the answer.

I disagree. I am generally not in favor of protectionist policies. But when it comes to outsourcing knowledge jobs, I think we have a different situation on our hands.

This "outsourcing" is also a key source of income for the people and families of India, who also need food, drinking water, healthcare, etc. If we continue to live in excess while the poorest nations are not given a hands-up, this will only lead to further class strife and conflict.

Then let them innovate. No one is stopping them from using their own money to invest in their own businesses that build products to compete in the American market. I am all in favor of honest competition. What is happening is *not* competition. It is an economic hemmorage that will eventually eliminate our middle class, if allowed to continue.

We are in the process of training knowledge workers in other countries to compete, giving them the foundation technology to do it and paying them for that favor while unplugging some of the hardest-working, most competent individuals in the United States from any hope of making a decent living in their field. Another side-effect is that it does not help steer American students into Science and Engineering to hear that they cannot get jobs, or cannot get a decent paying job, yet they have to make it through academics that are significantly more difficult than any other field of study.

What's next? No more scientists in America? After all, it would be cheaper to outsource basic scientific research to China.

Do you want to live in *that* United States?

Make no mistake about it, this is a threat to America and the most important role of a government is to protect itself against threats. Every high-paying knowledge job that is exported represents a significant tax-income loss for the government. Perhaps, besides examining tarrifs, the government should examine tax cuts or waivers for those sectors that have been the hardest hit. If technology professionals could pay 10% taxes instead of 45% taxes, companies could employ them cheaper, at least until a long-term solution to outsourcing is worked out. It would be better for everyone if the government collected a lower tax for a while, keeping more jobs in the U.S. and lowering the long-term threat to America's competitiveness (both because of educational choices of young Americans and third-world technology corridors that become super-charged through outsource funding).

Re:Impending disaster for the U.S.

[smithy242]

We probably can't stop the trend, but there is the possibility of slowing it down. As you stated, the taxation policies might be the best route, with corporate tax breaks for hiring local technology workers and lower income taxes. These cannot be substantial breaks, as it might upset some WTO agreements. Your point on encouragement for students to pursue science and engineering is well taken. I know of many who simply pursue an arts degree, as the future for technical workers seems dismal.

Another alternate route is minor re-training with government subsidy. Think about the amazing thought process yourself (or other technical workers) have learned. I read in your previous post your distaste for lawyers, but the thought process is very similar. It's somewhat brutal to have to go back to school, especially if you're established. . . With a combination of good business and technical skills, the opportunities are endless. Maybe small business, consulting, partnerships with professional practice firms?

I discussed this very scenario with my girlfriend, the issue of future white-collar jobs being outsourced -- it didn't go over well. She did a few years of chemical engineering, dropped out, and works at a place that processes cheques / deposits for the banks. She was considering going through for an accounting designation, but the thought of these positions going overseas to her seemed completely unrealistic. Knowledge of this hemorrhage, outside of the technical community, is unheard of, but the people need to be informed.

The next direction? No one knows.

Re:Impending disaster for the U.S.

[Corpus_Callosum]

I think we are in agreement.

I also believe that we should open up the H1b program BIG-TIME. The Bush administration has really gone protectionist with H1bs which has accelerated and confounded the outsourcing problem.

Under the Clinton administration, the philosophy was to bring the best brains in the world here and give them a chance to earn citizenship - an approach that both grew our home-tech-corridors and helped keep wages down at a time when hyper-wage-inflation was a real threat. I would much rather bring all the bright Indians (and Russians and Asians and ...) here and let them compete for jobs with us, with the same standards and costs of living than shovel the money and hemorrhage the jobs to the business owners in Bangalore. At least America is still doing the knowledge work, even if we have to open up the H1bs to the point where we are paying the guys minimum wage, it still works better for us in the long run.

We have a real problem, and you are absolutely right - we need to get the word out. High-tech companies are more progressive and faster to mobilize than traditional businesses, so it makes sense that they did this first. But if it is possible to export a process as complicated as software development, or chip design, it is definitely possible to export accounting and financial research and ....

It is only a matter of time...

I am seriously thinking of moving to Shanghai where money is flowing through the streets and the growth rate is in the double digits... Staying and watching the slow decline of America just seems too depressing...

Re:Impending disaster for the U.S.

[GlassHeart]

You may also want to examine how the US arrived in this position of leadership in the computer industry in the first place. That's right, the US innovated. The model you seem to be proposing is that there's an end to innovation, when you can just rest on your laurels and rely on information control to maintain your lead.

I think that's wrongheaded. Innovation, and being an innovator, is a continuous process. Closing off the borders risks losing the head start completely, because it decreases necessity, which really is the mother of invention. You may face a day when the Indian or Chinese programmer is not only cheaper, but by all measures better. Worse, the bright foreign minds could open a whole new field that you could've invented and dominated, if you weren't so comfortable in your cushy protected job.

Here's the objective reality. Software can be developed cheaply in certain other countries, and exported cheaply to the US (I'm talking FTP). This is the same shot across the bow that free software is making to commercial vendors: we can do what you can do, and we can (nearly or really) give it away. Protectionism, I think, will be about as effective as legally requiring your customers not to use a free OS from Finland.

Market value comes from doing something necessary that others can't. (Yes, I'm a software developer.)

Re:Impending disaster for the U.S.

[Corpus_Callosum]

You may also want to examine how the US arrived in this position of leadership in the computer industry in the first place. That's right, the US innovated. The model you seem to be proposing is that there's an end to innovation, when you can just rest on your laurels and rely on information control to maintain your lead.

I think that's wrongheaded. Innovation, and being an innovator, is a continuous process. Closing off the borders risks losing the head start completely, because it decreases necessity, which really is the mother of invention. You may face a day when the Indian or Chinese programmer is not only cheaper, but by all measures better. Worse, the bright foreign minds could open a whole new field that you could've invented and dominated, if you weren't so comfortable in your cushy protected job.

You have completely missed my point. I am saying that the creative, innovative jobs as well as all incentive to go into those professions is evaporating in the U.S. because of labor-pricing pressure. I am saying that something needs to be done, immediately, in order to ensure that we do not continue to hemorrage the "creative, innovative, science and engineering" jobs that are so critical to American innovation.

You seem to have interpreted what I have said as implying that we should stand back and hold the reins to a bunch of wild scientists and engineers around the world. I think we should give them all H1bs and bring them here, instead. Keep the innovation in the U.S.!!!! At any cost!!!

Here's the objective reality. Software can be developed cheaply in certain other countries, and exported cheaply to the US (I'm talking FTP). This is the same shot across the bow that free software is making to commercial vendors: we can do what you can do, and we can (nearly or really) give it away. Protectionism, I think, will be about as effective as legally requiring your customers not to use a free OS from Finland.

The competitive advantage that America has is (A) It's methodologies that have been refined over 30-40 years, (B) It's piles of source code and circuit architecture, basic science, etc.. that have been developed by our corporations and exist in the minds of our workforce and (C) Momentum.

If we hand these things over, we are handing over our crown jewels... We need to keep those things here.

Re:MOD PARENT UP +9999999

[Anonymous Coward]

There are plenty of skilled techies in the US loosing jobs.

Apparently, you aren't one of them. Skilled, that is.

Re:Why should you get my job?

[xtheunknown]

I still feel my question is valid. I may have made it personal (my job), but the question is no less valid. Why should (other than economics) an Indian programmer get a job held by an American programmer? Do the Indian programmers feel they are better programmers than their American counterparts? Do they feel they work harder? If the answer to those last two questions is yes, then how do they explain the fact that 50% of projects outsourced to India fail?

From an article:
"Half of this year's IT outsourcing projects will be tagged as losers by senior decision makers for not delivering on bottom-line promises, Gartner says. Outsourcing is prone to failure because of breakdowns in communications between outsourcing providers and their clients, the research firm adds."

Programming does not come down to simple matters of economics. If they work for 1/4 the cost of an American programmer, but you spend 4 times the amount of time making their code work, how are you better off?

Why not ask the question and see what the answer is instead of censoring the question in the first place?

Why India?

[El]

Why does most outsourcing go to India, instead of neighboring countries like Pakistan or Bangladesh? Don't other places also have a tradition of a high educated, english-speaking class?

Re:Why India?

[h1b_indian]

The difference is what constitutes education. In India, education is high on priority list. Indian civilization always stressed education as the noblest pursuit. In Islamic Pakistan and Bangladesh, they attend Madrasas and refuse to change. Note that Pakistan is a country set up solely because Muslims hated Hindus and refused to live peacefully in a pluralistic society. How can you expect fanatics to progress?

OTOH, in India, you have a tolerant and accomodative society with stress on education. Despite the backstabbing and violence, we indians are tolerant of other religious groups and our President is a Muslim.

In this culture, you will find poor Hindu children knocking on doors and begging for money in order to pay for their textbooks. They'll return next year with the previous year's report card.

You will find mothers starving to make sure that the kid gets a decent education. Movies which portray hard work in poor families usually show the protagonist studying late at night with a table lamp. That should tell you how indians view education.

When I went to school, there was only one thing on our minds. Compete with each other, do well and get admission into a brand name institute.

It was sheer bad luck that Jawaharlal Nehru became the first Prime Minister and chose the Stalinist model of economy and pushed us into poverty and desperation. The Nehru family (Nehru, his daughter Indira Gandhi and Indira's son, Rajiv gandhi were also Prime Ministers) is known as India's sorrow. The slow rate of growth due to the Nehruvian-Stalinist model is called Nehruvian Penalty.

Things are changing now with the Communists ejected out of academia and losing in the political arena. They have been reduced to whining from the sidelines abusing those of us who are for peace and free economy as "Hindu fascists" and "Hindu fundamentalists." They will be intellectually defeated.

Of course, this importance for learning has created an environment where Muslims and Christians too feel the peer pressure to succeed in education. So Indian Muslims and Christians are better than their Pakistani counterparts (Pakistan doesn't have Christians as it has killed them off.) Finally, I shouldn't take away credit from Muslim and Christian families. The tradition of giving importance to learning must have been handed down through the generations in their families too as their ancestors too were Hindus at some point of time.

Caste in India!

[Anonymous Coward]

Hi, I am Indian and it seems some people are interested to know about the caste system in India. I will provide some information and comparison to give you a good idea.

These are the facts:

1. Does caste system exists in India?
-Yes. But these days its probably more of an economic class system than caste system. There are rich, middle class and poor. This is the modern day caste system of India! And its no diffferent from what you have in US.

2. Are lower castes discriminated against?
-Yes ocassionally. Discrimination exists in every society and we judge a society based on their ability and intention to stop it. In that way, India and US is no different.

3. How does India deal with the problem?
- There are laws against caste discrimination. Besides India invented and implemented the strongest affirmative action program in the world. It was actually done before the time (1947)when lynching was a fair practice in American south. The affirmative action program is strictly implemented everywhere like higher education, jobs etc. In some states where lower caste population is high the quotas in education and jobs can be as high as 75%!!!

4. Do lower caste people live in ghettoes?
-Sometimes communities are segregated but in urban areas its not that way. There is no Indian equivalent of racially segreated communities in the US. Anyone can live anywhere and you cant tell a persons caste by appearance:)

5. Do lower castes have political power?
-They have enormous political power. India has many state chief ministers (governor) belonging to the lowest caste. India had many lower caste Presidents, Vice-presidents and prime minister too! Lower caste people are the largest voting population and since we are a true democracy, usually the lower caste people have proportionate political representation. We do not have a two-party system. There are hundreds of political parties in India and we need that to properly represent our enormously diverse population. (BTW, right now our president is a Muslim, prime minister a hindu and defense minister a christian! Its not related to caste though)

6. Are lower caste people (dalits) forced to do horrible jobs?
-This is the most common myth perpetrated in the western world. No one is forced to do anything! But, many lower caste people who are also poor tend to do janitorial jobs and other jobs that nobody wants to do. Many lower caste/dalit people in India are also illiterate and lack skills. So, many of them end up taking family profession. But their situations are improving rapidly. Indian govt for the past 55 years has been trying to undo the results of several hundreds of years of discrimination and we are doing it peacefully. We did not have to fight a civil war to eliminate the evils of our society. Its interesting to note that bad jobs are usually taken care of by immigrants and minorities in the US. You might as well call it caste system of the US. (let me know when you see a non-hispanic janitor!)

7. Do lower caste people have equal opportunities in education?
-Yes. There is nothing like school district in India. Anyone can attend any school. So even poor people can share good public schools with rich people. We dont force our poor population to live in bad neighborhoods and poor school districts. Poverty and richness coexist in India and its fairly common to see a slum and a mansion side by side! We dont believe in hiding our poverty in the inner-cities and urban ghettoes and condemn those people to perputal cycle of violence, poverty and lack of education. Actually we show our poverty to everyone else and we are proud the way we are dealing with it...(The Brits left us in 1947 with 90% people living in poverty with a life expectancy of 35 years. In 50 years we managed to cut down the poverty to 25% with life expectancy of 67 years!) There are rich kids going to good private schools. But there are plenty of good public schools for everyone. Most Indians working in IT are not rich people. They are ordinary

Re:How well/badly are Indian techies regarded ther

[be-fan]

Yeah, that's pretty common too... Luckily, my parents let me run rampant, so it was cool.

Re:I wish that americans/euopeans would get past t

[IANAAC]

I've been out of work for three years.

Three years is an awfully long time. At what point does one say "OK. Either I'm not doing something right or it's time to do something else" (not that you're doing anything wrong - it's something I would ask myself after three years though).

But I'm also one of those people that believes we're not put on this earth to do just one thing, either.

If you're single, unemployement would be a good time to learn something new. If you're married/with kids I would think it would be a necessity - even with years' worth of savings in the bank.

Charity and philanthropy

[demi]

Almost all of the technology workers I know devote part of their income (which is considerably more than is paid to their outsourced counterparts) to charity and philanthropy. In my office, we support research into cures for diseases, care for the elderly, sanitation and improvements in the third world, just to name a few. How much do you give to charity? If it's less than is typical for the US worker you replace (as I imagine it must be, just on the basis of compensation) what effect do you think that will have on the quality of life for recipients of philanthropy?

Microsoft, Linux

[ehiris]

Do Indian geeks dislike Microsoft?

Is Linux a popular OS considering the relative high cost of MS licensing?

Re:Quality of life [OT]

[Shimmer]

Say Anything! Just saw it...

Re:Why are so many Indians in American CS programs

[Josuah]

Are we as American technical workers shooting ourselves in the foot by helping to train our replacements in American academic institutions?

Are we, as human beings, so selfish that we would rather ensure personal superiority over another through regulation and control rather than hard work?

Re: Some Real Answers

[vishwass]

Can you give some info and pointers about the CS/IT/telecom education in India, especially at unversity level?

The information technology related 4-year engineering degrees are the hot courses of study. But it is very likely that your average software programmer has a non-IT engg. degree(chemical/civil/mechanical etc.). My quantitative answers are not averages but educated guesses influenced by personal experience

* How many people graduate from a (technical) university on an average?

Any where between 200 to 500 students every year. This may include non-IT related fields, many of whom end up in the IT sector anyway

* Does the government subsidize university-level education in any way, or is a degree only possible to attain only if you are rich enough? What does a M.Sc. or B.Sc. degree cost you?

See another post later in the main thread. Anywhere in the range between $2000 to $20000 for the entire course. The lower range is typically for the better government/state schools and the higher range is for the more expensive for-profit private institutions. The BSc degree is a 3-year degree in India. The equivalent of an american 4-yr engineering BS is a B.E or B. Tech.

* What are the most prominent higher-level education universities in the technology sector? Homepage URLs? Do they specialize in any particular fields of technology?

The most prominent are the IITs (Indian Institutes of Technology) and RECs (Regional Engineering Colleges) and the most prestigious institute is IISc located in Bangalore.

* What's the teaching like, compared to curriculums in Eurpoe or the US? Are certain subjects and fields emphasized more or less?

Except for the top few colleges, in general the quality is not as good as in a major research university in the US. The teaching is getting better as professors are beginning to get paid more. Being a professor (except than in a top IIT/IISc) did not pay very well and the best talent went to the private sector instead. Some syllabi are out-dated, there may be too little equipment or a small prof-to-student ratio. The problem lies partly in government intervention and in rulers who have socialist intentions ingrained in their genes.

* Are there any major differences in teaching methods? (lectures, homework, group projects, tuition by teaching assistants, etc.)

In my undergrad life in India, I had studied the text book for almost every subject cover-to-cover. In contrast, in the US, I have covered at the most 40% of a few textbooks. The work is based more on a few heavily-weighted exams rather than small and regular equally weighted assignments thro'out the semester. Again this is changing with more teachers being exposed to a US/European education.

* Are those Indians that have graduated abroad (say in the US) more respected than people who have graduated from an Indian university? That is, how well are foreign degrees appreciated within India?

I hope they are ;-) A graduate from even a not-so-well ranked US university typically would start at a higher level than a student with a degree from a local university. That is probably one reason why US universities have so many PIGs (Poor Indian Grad students). But that is not true of all schools. An IIT or IIM graduate would probably be ranked competitively with a US grad.

* What is the employment outlook and status in tech-sector jobs in India? Are many graduated engineers unemployed? Has the unemployment rate risen or fallen? What impact ha

AA/TSG - I was there

[RobertB-DC]

I think perhaps you are confusing American Airlines with The Sabre Group (current owners of Travelocity).

You're right, in part. I worked for TSG (the acronym du jour, IIRC) just before they were about to be spun off. In the convulsions leading up to the spinoff, there was a constant shuffling of staff -- some of which was managers using the confusion to unload bum steers.

That finally led to "the cloud process", where upper management would be reorganizing across all departments. We knew that there would be layoffs. Nobody knew what their status would be, but everyone was afraid that they'd be let go in favor of a less qualified and/or cheaper alternative.

My contacts in HR told me that the company was aggressively recruiting H1-Bs at that time, despite the uncertainty among the current employees. The business reasons were perfectly valid, in the artificial Wall Street world where increasing profits are the only measure of success. The ethics were as debatable as they were irrelevant.

At the height of the confusion, an atmosphere of extreme distrust developed between the knowlege workers and the management. In one famous episode, the then-president of TSG (whose name I can't recall) told us that we were at "a fork in the road" -- and was greeted with a chorus of boos. That week, he was flooded with intracompany mail envelopes containing... forks. From the cafeteria. He was said to be not amused.

I bailed out shortly before the AA/Sabre split became complete, so I've probably gotten the names wrong... but you can see why I didn't split hairs in the original post. (And I still didn't get FP!)

Short term gains at a long term cost

[JustAnotherReader]

This whole outsourcing fad is so disturbing. Apparently the CEO's of this country want to build a nation where the only jobs left are at McDonalds, but nobody can afford to eat there.

There are very real problems with outsourcing to India, and it's about time that we discuss these openly. I should add that my company has recently annouced that they will be outsourcing jobs and it disgust me that of all the possible cost cutting options available to them they chose the one that is the most morally bankrupt.

But let's list the real issues:

• In every case I've seen, EVERY CASE, the reason for outsourcing is to save cost. NOT ONCE has the reason for outsourcing been "because we can get better quality code from India." I've worked extensivly with H1-B Indians and I spent most of my time teaching them how to write decent code and fixing their bugs. The quality of their code was atrociously bad.
• Let's look at India politically. Can we assume that they will always be friendly to the US? How friendly were they with Russia 30 years ago compared to today? How has their relationship to England changed in the past 50 years?
• India has roughly 80 million muslims. The US is doing things in the world which right or wrong (and you can discuss this at a different time) are making muslims around the world mad at us. Regardless of how you feel about Bush's "War On Terrorism" you must admit that we are not making many friends in the muslim world.
• India's relationship with Pakistan is strained at best. Do you really want to outsource your banking records, medical records, etc to a country that has such tension between themselves and their nuclear weapon holding neighbor?
• What about the moral stance of shipping American jobs overseas? Americans built the very companies who are now outsourcing. Is our reward to have our jobs taken from us and to have the hi-tech job market in this country destroyed?
• When farming jobs were vaninishing and the country was moving towards a manufacturing economy farmers had a generation or so to change their lives. When manufacturing jobs left the country we had a decade or so to "re-tool" to the hi-tech job market. In this wave of outsourcing tech jobs there is no "next new job market" to take over the lost jobs and there is no time to retrain. (Retrain? Retrain for what?) This will do untold damage to the US economy.
• This is not only losing American jobs, but it's losing some of the higher paid American jobs. The top 50% (as far as wages) of Americans pay just over 80% of the total amount of collected federal income tax. With our government printing roughly $5 billion of fiat money a week and issueing roughly $15 billion of new debt each week and Bush issuing a 2005 budget with $500 billion of deficit spending how are we suppose to pay off ANY of this debt if the very people who pay most of the taxes no longer have jobs?
• Security of data. We've already seen cases where medical transcribers in India wern't being paid. In retaliation they threatened to release those medical records to the world via the internet if they wern't paid. I have had Secret military clearance and one of the things that is pounded into our heads it that "Security is only as tight as YOU decide to make it". How wise is it to allow our medical records, our banking records, our hi-tech programming skills and secrets to be completly available to programmers who have no connection to our country or our lifestyle at all?
• Have these companies really looked at alternatives? Most hi-tech jobs are in the most expensive areas in the country: San Francisco/Silicon Valley, Southern California, and Boston. If these companies would consider moving their operations to the midwest and the south then their employees could afford the housing and therefore afford lower wages without changing their standard of living. Or how about allowing more telecommuting? Have you tried outsourcing to telecommuting programers from Kentucky (for example).

  • Once again, U.S companies are shooting for short term gains while ignoring the very serious long term damage to our economy that outsourcing will cause.

That's how America was discovered

[vishwass]

Once upon a time Europeans craved for spices to improve their bland meat and fought with the Arabs who controlled access to the places of production in the Indian Subcontinent. That is why Cristobal' Columbus set out to discover a sea route to India and arrived in America instead. Vasco Da Gama succeeded in finding that route to India.

It is this "Curry" smell that drove European colonialists to do all the things they did eventiually to America and to India. That's the magic of the Masala!

It'll be nice moving to India.

[Anonymous Coward]

In America, $60,000 won't get you nearly as far as $6,000 can get you in India. I think I'll move to India, and since I'm used to working long hours, and barely scraping by financially, in India I'll be able to undercut the spoiled Indian software engineers by quite a bit. It's going to be nice doing to Indian engineers what they did to me.

Re:Bathing habits

[too_bad]

Did you know that the west learnt that it is best to bathe everyday from Indians and Japanese ?

Treatment to Americans?

[moosesocks]

How are immigrants from America / Europe treated? (With specific regard to race and religion)

Are they met with the same unfair prejudices we treat our immigrants with?

Apart from the language barrier, what are the biggest changes an American would need to make to his/her lifestyle if he were to move to India?

Finally, are there even many immigrants?

Re:How popular is the MAC?

[h1b_indian]

Apple? I would say it is close to zero. The geeks prefer UNIX/Linux and Microsoft succeeds because it is Microsoft.

Time difference

[spludge]

How does it work with the time difference between the US and India. An Indian friend of mine has told me that this makes for some interesting working hours.

Re:Time difference

[Greenisloved]

There is a 11.30-12.30 hour difference between indian and us time zones.I live in Central time[kansas].
My indian friends who chose to work in India instead of Masters degree in USA are not that joyous abt the kinda job they do
At the end of day , they get good bucks.Their complaint is that companies are pushing them to work on an average 10-12 hours per day.Weekends too..One of my friend has work every other weekend.
Sheer compettition in India drove me to USA

Q for the geeks over there

[hedley]

What about geek retail places. Is there an equivalent Fry's electronics/Comp USA/Best Buy etc in Bangalore?

Hedley

Re:Q for the geeks over there

[hedley]

And what are the prices like? I would expect the prices are similar for electronics. A 20$ BOM wireless router from China can realistically only be had for ~40$ retail (boxed, tested, CD manuals etc).

Software prices though might be interesting. Ranging from the 1$ copy on up I would expect.

Hedley

Re:childish

[rsidd]

Then why do so many professionals write English as though they were children, with all that "U 2 B"-type IM chat abbreviation?

I agree it's childish and annoying. I think it's not because they can't write/spell but because they're lazy/poor typists (I can't believe the number of professional programmers who type with two fingers), so they get into that habit for IM and personal email, and it just spills over into professional email.

Re:About education costs in India

[h1b_indian]

Well, I must disagree about calling those whose politics you disagree with as monkeys. Without being abusive, and without dragging in all other political issues, let me give you my take on the topic.

IITs and IIMs developed their brand name solely by being choosy on the quality of their students. It is the selection process and the students who are responsible for their quality, not money.

While I am all for market forces and education in the private sector, I think that IF the Govt is going to run an educational institute, they had better make it accessible to the entire indian population instead of only the ultra-rich.

You yourself betray your politics (clearly you are a Communist) when you claim that Govt run institutes benefit only a small section of the middle class (who else treats middle class as villains?), but at the same time whinge when the Govt wants to bring down the fees!

Can't, except for China.

[univgeek]

Let's say you want 500 programmers. Sure you can go to the Phillipines. Now multiply that by the 1000 companies trying to go there. 500,000 programmers are probably hard to find.

Let's say a company wants 10,000 programmers. Where are you going to find them?

Simply put, there is a need for quality in a volume which not many countries can fulfill. India, China, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Brazil have the largest populations, and population growth.

If you want educated, well qualified people, who are in the top 25%, and you want a few thousand of them, with an option for future growth, then the choices narrow down considerably.

India also has the advantage of an excellent (in the region) higher education system - churning out hundreds of thousands of graduates, in engineering, business, accounts etc. Most of the other countries do not have the advantage of sucha system.

Re:Why are so many Indians in American CS programs

[univgeek]

It's free, or really cheap. And many people are under the assumption that any kind of certification helps with a job search.

I don't think it means much, just adds fluff to the resume.

Re:Questions...

[jafac]

Agreed.

My hatred and bitterness are directed at the individual corporate officers who make the conscious decision to pander to the investment market (not necessarily investors) by being hip to the latest hot trend (outsourcing) irregardless of whether it actually makes good business sense, or sense in terms of gutting their own customer base, in their own native country. And the politicians who refuse to protect their own citizens.

Re:PS. What is a right?

[ahdeoz]

No, rights aren't arbitrary. Look up the word under "Declaration of Independence."

Heart of Darkness

[SethJohnson]

Do you feel like the western world has returned to India to exploit your poor quality of living like back in the colonial days?

The horror. The horror.

Re:Interview Question: starting your own businesse

[ajayvb]

It is a myth that all of the programming in India is low-end grunt work. Some of Texas Instrument's DSPs have been developed entirely in India (I have friends who worked on them, so I know). Also, Adobe's latest Photoshop Album was developed entirely in India. Cadence as well as Veritas are two top product companies (as a gazillion others) have strong development offices in India.

It is just that product development and marketing in places like the US takes up too much money, and not many Indian companies can afford or would want to do that right now. It is a matter of time, before someone makes the jump. Also, don't forget the number of expatriate Indians at the top of tech companies in the US (e.g. Vinod Khosla, founding CEO of Sun, Sabeer Bhatia who sold Hotmail to Microsoft are just two examples, and Amar Bose of the Bose speakers).

Indian Graduate student cost conversion

[Greenisloved]

Graduate students esp in computer science usually get some form of assistantship in many colleges in USA.
Ima research assistant and this is what i do with the money.
Earn like 700 $ per month.Earn double during summer
Share room,Food ,Elec,Cable with 3 other roommates.Comes to me like 300 bucks per month.
Save 250 bucks easily.
This means being a student I could save 50*250=12500 Rupees per month.
A software programmer in India earns with 2 years experience some 25k-35k Rupees.And saves 15K maximum if he is not married .If he is married , that drops significatly.
I send a proportion of money to my relative for his college studies [600$ entire semester fee] and some to parents.
Simply being a student gives nme this much cost difference.. Imagine being an immigrant worker, how much could i help people back home.
This is what on an average many Indian students do.Exception by definition is anywhere
Indians typically dont live with debts .Many use credit cards for convenient mode of purchasing.If they cant afford, they dont buy.period.

Re:USA software worker makes 60,000 USA dollars

[shibboleth]

Let me understand. You had a friend bring you to India, he didn't pay you enough for even Indian cost of living, and he objected when you took on paying work?

Cheapest grass in the world

[preetamrai]

Computer Subculture The first computer I started playing with was in the mid 80s, commodore-64 and Sinclair Spectrums. Those days, there were high import duties for computers and most of the pieces were smuggled in via Dubai. If you were in the market for such a computer you would go in to the roadside stalls in south Bombay and bargain. I ran a successful TV Cable TV ad company, using the commodore-64. We used to use an "HTML" like markup language to crate titles and animations. It was good fun. Even before the IT industry boom in the early 90s , there existed pretty active group of people working with computers like Amiga, Atari, BBC micro and Spectrums. There were several BBSs and computer clubs though mainly they were concentrated in Bombay, Bangalore or Delhi. Our school (a regular government funded) had a couple of Apple IIs and one Macintosh. Apple Computers in India Later, in 1995, I went to work for a company in Bangalore that had 80 Macs and 4 PCs. Even the receptionist has a Mac. Another unique thing about this company was that probably for the first time in India, it was a products company. The CEO was appalled at the way India was looked at as a "cheap labour" place. His idea was to build multimedia titles on Asia/Africa culture and sell them worldwide. It was also a cool place to work for and people still remember this company for kick starting the wild party scene in Bangalore. While the general visibility is low, I would bet that there are more Apple users in India than China. A lot of media industry (which is very large in India) do use Apple. The regular IT guys would not be aware of this. I wanted to talk about the "party scene" as no one mentioned it here. I left India in 1997 and since then I have traveling and working in South East Asia and China. The amount of fun you can have in Bangalore is amazing, with wildest weekend happening in Asia at the moment. You have to see it to believe it. My brother talks about some of the foreigners he has taken to these weekends and immediately want to move to Bangalore. Bangalore also has flights to Bangkok, so anytime you feel bored you can head up there for a weekend.

Re:How popular is the MAC?

[preetamrai]

Mate you need to get out a bit. Macs are becoming more popular as the import duties are now nearing zero. Big enough for Apple to actually run an online store for India. http://www.asia.apple.com/store/

insourcing

[intrader]

That is recursive term that perhaps only applies when H1b visa holders suffer layoffs, but remain illevally in the US until they are rescued when they are hired by others with H1b visas.

Some facts about US economy and living

[heroine]

When you take it in rupees, consider this:

The average American earns nothing because they're all unemployed.

Rent for dumpy 2 bedroom house in silicon valley:
90,000 RS

Food/Utilities:
10,000 RS

Cost of car:
used: 300000(min) new: 675,000(min) RS

Cost of gas:
37 / lit in summer 20 / lit in winter

DSL connection + land line:
3600 RS

Eating out:
900/meal RS

Air tickets to india:
50000(one way) RS

There's a sucker - or rather - immigrant born every minute.

Answers to a few common questions

[xot]

I just noticed that there are a few questions that have kept repeating themselves in this post and previous ones.So i thought i should attempt to answer a few of them being an Indian who works in the outsourcing industry in bombay.

1. Most questions asked here are cultural differences and definitely do NOT belong to LinuxAsia! ;)

2. Are those benefitting from these jobs in India consuming American goods?
Yes they are.Like elsewhere Coke and pepsi is part of the staple diet of most indians above the poverty line.(though i prefer beer).We wear a lot of Nike/Reebok/Levis,even though they are all made in China or thailand etc.Theres a Mcdonalds in most major cities.

3. How does it work with the time difference between the US and India?
We work at nights instead of day.My day typically starts at 1am and ends at 11am.That way we are working during americen working hours.

4. Microsoft Vs Linux
Don't you know everyone the world over hates Microsoft? or you're supposed to?!? In terms of other OS'es Linux is much more popular than any other non-MS OS ie Mac OS,BSD,Solaris etc.

5. Why India?
Why not? :-) Jokes apart, the whole outsourcing thing is more an internal issue of America than anything else.If you can convince the big American firms to stop Outsourcing theres nothing India or any other country in the world can do about it.They'd outsource blah-kistan if India got erased from the list. $$ is the key issue.

6. Americans in India.
Yes, its a whole LOT easier for an american to get a job in India than it is for an Indian in USA.If its a small firm they won' even look at your passport as long as you can get the work done.Btw we have no minimum wage system,at least not that i know of.

Geeks here n geeks everywhere are the same, we thrive on beer,Quake,010101's and slashdot.Over n out.

Econ 101

[Minkey Brines]

You know, I'm one of those many IT people in the U.S. affected by the economic downturn and also probably by outsourcing. However, I just recently thought about it and have come to the conclusion that it's not a bad thing. Change is good. I like buying cheap products. If getting cheap IT workers means cheaper products, I'm all for it. I know that in the short term it means that my skills are worthless in this market, but that's just because I chose to paint myself into a corner and didn't diversify my skill set so I'd be ready when this eventually happened. This has happened with hardware in the past which is why I can get so much more bang for my PC-buying buck. America has been good at leading the technological way. If that's our niche, it's going to be tough but I and all those in the same boat as me will have to position ourselves in such a way as to be flexible enough to handle it. It's either that, or go communist. :-)

Indian Law

[NastyFreakyCoder]

Hi,
Say us Americans managed to survive, in America, for $4000 per year writing excellent code. Would it be legal for an Indian company to outsource that 4K/yr American? What about the legalities of an Indian company moving its entire IT department to take advantage of the $4000 programmers here in America?

An even more direct question: according to Indian law can Indian companies do with American knowledge workers what American companies are doing with Indian knowledge workers?

Sincerely,
A competitor

mahilig makipagtalong pinoy

[Corpus_Callosum]

There is only one national language and it's Tagalog. Why Filipinos are very good in English, whether written or spoken, is the fact that it's the medium of instruction taught in public/private schools, and institutions.

Do your own research. Perhaps you can prove you have by telling me the source of the following:

Section 7. For purposes of communication and instruction, the official languages of the Philippines are Filipino and, until otherwise provided by law, English.

It's Filipina .. And it's Filipino .. It's Filipinos

Well, bub, make up your mind. The country is the Philippines (yes, two p's). While in common language the usage of Filipina and Filipino is used to denote Female and Male members of the Philippines, respectively, "Philippinos" is used to denote all members of the Philippines... Although your mileage may vary, as even the Philippinos themselves seem to argue about shifting the "Ph" to an "F" and the "pp" to a "p". Sloppiness in spelling is my right. If you want to teach english (or Tagalog), be my guest, but do it somewhere else and just give me an "F" please.

Since you know so much about their language (I speak it, btw), pehaps you can check the spelling of, and translate for our readers, the following: Bastos ka tanga at mabaho

BTW: I am sticking up for you, you mahilig makipagtalong pinoy

Re:mahilig makipagtalong pinoy

[kerb]

>"Philippinos" is used to denote all members of the >Philippines..

its "Filipino" (formerly "Pilipino")

Re:mahilig makipagtalong pinoy

[mparaz]

ROTFLMAO. Don't touch my birdie.

Re:RP history...

[Corpus_Callosum]

Apparently you need to do some research, the U.S. granted the Philippine Islands commonwealth status (similar to present-day Puerto Rico) in 1935. The Republic of the Philippines was granted full independance on July 4, 1946.

I concede, my memory failed me by 4 years. Sorry about that. The commonwealth status was a precursor to statehood, which was rejected by corrupt politicians in the Philippines. This is something that you will not get a clear view of in the U.S., because it is somewhat embarassing.

Interestingly, there is still quite a bit of activity revolving around statehood for the Philippines. It could still happen, but it wouldn't be terribly soon. The U.S. would need to place them back into commonwealth status first, yady-yah... see this link ... Politics...

Work ethic ? Education ? Jeez, don't get me started; just let me say you have limited experiences.

My limited experiences include getting engaged to a Filipina, spending months in the Philippines on business and getting to know my future family, learning Tagalog and emersing myself in the culture to better understand what I was getting myself into. This on top of a long string of business relationships which led to me meeting my finacee in the first place.

Education: who's on top? IT Manager looking to outsource? Try these guys: link

Male-to-female ratio in India?

[Anonymous Coward]

What's the male-to-female ratio in the professional centers in India?

If I worked or visited India, as an American geek would my chances of going out with a hot Indian girl be any greater than my current (slim) chances of going out with a hot American girl? As Valentine's Day approaches in the US, inquiring minds want to know.

Anybody can invent something...

[IshanCaspian]

...but it's no good unless you are able to take advantage of the invention.

Re:Anybody can invent something...

[IshanCaspian]

Thank you captain obvious. The point of this entire discussion is that we are being complicit in gutting our white-collar work-force. In other words, we are allowing them the opportunity to make use of those skills at our expense. Through protectionist legislation we have the power to stop that from happening, and I am arguing that we ought to exercise that power.

Re:PS. What is a right?

[mirio]

No, rights aren't arbitrary. Look up the word under "Declaration of Independence."

What right did I claim was arbitrary? Clearly I would equate "persuit of happiness" with "right to find a job"!

outsourcing: more than just tech jobs

[silent31]

It isn't just the tech industry that is being outsourced to India and Pakistan. It's also anything from the help desk, to banks, to filing your taxes online. And just as scary as your personal financial info being sent overseas, your medical records as well. I'm about to become a Medical Transcriptionist, and these jobs are being outsourced as we speak. I gathered some links to show you how broad the outsourcing has become, not just in medical, but everywhere. We're losing jobs to India faster than we did to Mexico! A Pakistani MT recently tried to blackmail her US employer by stating that she would post patient information on the internet if she wasn't paid better. That's scary. And by sending it to India, they aren't covered by the US HIPAA laws that protect our privacy. This is extremely important to become aware of. Because it could affect any one of us. http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/ga te/archive/2004/02/09/asparks.DTL http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chroni cle/archive/2003/12/17/BUG163OIH51.DTL http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chroni cle/archive/2003/11/12/BUGI52VMQR1.DTL

Clincher...

[gillbates]

That wasn't the starting salary. That was what a manager could make after being with the company 5 years. Presumably, by that time one would be managing a few stores - though maybe not quite a district manager.

But I think the point is still valid. One can spend 5 years working in food service, or 5 years in college, and in the end your salary is more indicative of the revenue you bring to the company rather than your level of education.

While my life is certainly enriched by my education, and I do enjoy my career, I could have done just as well without a college degree, financially speaking. The problem I have is that society sees a college degree as a means to a financial end rather than an end in itself. Someone who's just seeking to get rich would do just as well, or better, without college.

The myth that a college degree is going to gaurantee wealth, or the lack thereof will deny someone wealth is just that - a myth. I know of many people without college degrees who have managed to find secure jobs and decent income by merely sticking with something and working hard. If you like to learn, and enjoy the arts and sciences, or just want to become better educated, by all means, go to college. But don't think that you will be buying job security; you won't.

After all, when was the last time you heard of construction workers getting outsourced....

Re:RP history...

[GlassHeart]

Interestingly, there is still quite a bit of activity revolving around statehood for the Philippines. It could still happen, but it wouldn't be terribly soon. The U.S. would need to place them back into commonwealth status first, yady-yah...

As far as I understand, joining the US tends to be one-sided proposals by fringe politicians, and has almost no mainstream support. The US is also unlikely to accept a new state of nearly 85 million people with a per capita GDP of under $5,000. The US itself is only some 300 million people, with a GDP more than $36,000. Absorbing the Philippines and bringing it to the economic levels of other states will cripple the US economy for decades.

My limited experiences include getting engaged to a Filipina, spending months in the Philippines on business and getting to know my future family, learning Tagalog and emersing myself in the culture to better understand what I was getting myself into.

Good, I "outrank" you quite a bit. I lived in the Philippines for 15 years. Let me tell you, then, that like most or all third world countries, the Philippines has a small ruling class, a small middle class, and a large peasant class. Among the small ruling and middle classes, who typically send their children to private schools or a handful of good public schools, work ethic and educational attainments compare favorably. If money is not the problem, you will probably finish a 4-year college degree. Outsourcing companies will typically draw from this pool of human resources, so it's not at all unlikely to staff an entire call center with college graduates speaking good American English.

The situation among the poor is another thing altogether, living primarily at the subsistence level. They tend to be less educated and less ably educated. They tend to speak less English, and are probably more susceptible habits like smoking or alcoholism. It is easy to charge them with laziness, but that's the same as charging lazy Americans with not lifting themselves out of poverty. It is partly true, and partly false.

Re:RP history...

[Corpus_Callosum]

s far as I understand, joining the US tends to be one-sided proposals by fringe politicians, and has almost no mainstream support. The US is also unlikely to accept a new state of nearly 85 million people with a per capita GDP of under $5,000. The US itself is only some 300 million people, with a GDP more than $36,000. Absorbing the Philippines and bringing it to the economic levels of other states will cripple the US economy for decades.

Actually, examine the link I posted about statehood. It tends to be the politicians (rather than the people) in the Philippines that oppose statehood because it poses a threat to their wealth and power.

There is a growing awareness of the coming economic competitiveness of China and India in the U.S, and a particular school of thought that believes that we should align ourselves closely with a country such as the Philippines in order to challenge the cheap labor of India/China. In this scenario, the 80 million Filipinos working for peanuts works greatly in our favor. Done correctly, the transformation of the Philippines into a state will coincide with the use of the Philippines as a weapon in this economic war that is coming with China and India. The end result is that the standard of living, GDP and infrastructure of the Philippines is tremendously raised while the U.S. gets it ready to be a state *and* fends off economic disaster at the hands of the Chinese and Indians.

In the long term, in order for the U.S. to stay competitive with countries like China and India, we need to greatly increase our population. This also helps us achieve that. It also gives us an extremely strategic presence in the region.

It seems like a smart idea to me.

Re:RP history...

[GlassHeart]

It tends to be the politicians (rather than the people) in the Philippines that oppose statehood because it poses a threat to their wealth and power.

As I said, perhaps not clearly enough, there's really no grassroots support for such a proposal. People would joke about it, but it's not taken as a serious proposal by a serious candidate. Despite being a third world country, the Philippines does have some national pride.

There is a growing awareness of the coming economic competitiveness of China and India in the U.S, and a particular school of thought that believes that we should align ourselves closely with a country such as the Philippines in order to challenge the cheap labor of India/China. In this scenario, the 80 million Filipinos working for peanuts works greatly in our favor.

Only if you go cherry picking, and ignore the poor. The $5,000 GDP is grossly inflated because of the extremely rich. The government has a public sector debt of more than 100% its GDP. The public education system, except for a few shining stars, is in shambles. 40% of the population live below the poverty line, 10.2% are unemployed, and many many more are underemployed.

Done correctly, [...]

Sure, but what if it was done wrong? You'll have 80 million more Americans (which would be nearly 1 out of every 4) living in abject poverty qualified for federal assistance.

Re:RP history...

[Corpus_Callosum]

As I said, perhaps not clearly enough, there's really no grassroots support for such a proposal. People would joke about it, but it's not taken as a serious proposal by a serious candidate. Despite being a third world country, the Philippines does have some national pride.

http://philippinegovantigraft.homestead.com/Stateh ood.html

Only if you go cherry picking, and ignore the poor. The $5,000 GDP is grossly inflated because of the extremely rich. The government has a public sector debt of more than 100% its GDP. The public education system, except for a few shining stars, is in shambles. 40% of the population live below the poverty line, 10.2% are unemployed, and many many more are underemployed.

The truly poor become blue-collar in the short term. Their children have an opportunity to become white collar. This is pretty simple stuff, really. We are not talking about a 5 year plan here, more like 20 years or more. Your points are good, but for each of them I can assign an equal or greater advantage to your disadvantage.

And, of course, federal assistance would not kick in until we used economic means to raise the people out of poverty. This would not take as long as you believe. With American protection, U.S. companies would rush in to take advantage of the cheap labor. The country would transform very quickly. The federal assistance programs could be staged in gradually as milestones are met so that no undo strain was being placed on the U.S. taxpayers.

I agree with most of that

[IshanCaspian]

However, pure capitalism is a horrible thing. Like health care? Social security? Retirement? How about weekends? All of those things are contrary to capitalism, and corporations will be more than happy to slash all of those in the name of profits as soon as we let them.

Remember, corporations want to take us back to 1900, before all of that commie hippie bullshit started up. I'm not saying that they're evil or something, but capitalism cares about only one thing, and that is the profits of the guy on top. There's no use in questioning the guy on top, because all he's doing is realizing the objectives of a business in a capitalist society. Capitalism is a powerful system, the most successful economic system in history, but in its purest form it destroys everyone but the richest. That's why we must always temper capitalism with enough socialist protections to stop the little guy from getting hosed.

Really, the only the reason there exists such a thing as a comfortable, dignified middle class is because people have been questioning capitalism since the foundation of this country. There's been a really strong push lately to purify capitalism in this country, and this current wave of outsourcing is just another indication of this trend.

Re:RP history...

[GlassHeart]

http://philippinegovantigraft.homestead.com/Stateh ood.html

Take a cue from the page that attempts to answer why the US may want the Philippines as a state. It starts out with joint military operations against Islamic militants, something that the US can get right now. It then moves on to just one paragraph that reads:

The United States will greatly benefit in having the Philippines a state of the U.S. because of our rich natural resources which could potentially be developed with modern technologies. The Philippines will become the rice and sugar granary of the world along with her other unique countless agricultural products.

which borders on funny. The exploitation of Filipino natural resources is such a big problem that the recent governments have basically banned logging across the board. As a US state, environmental protection requirements will only increase, not decrease. The core problem with Filipino agricultural production is the near feudal arrangements with powerful landlords. In other words, agrarian reform is necessary, and I don't see how the US federal government would basically go in and topple the aristocratic class. How and why are two huge questions here.

The truly poor become blue-collar in the short term. Their children have an opportunity to become white collar. This is pretty simple stuff, really.

If it's such simple stuff, why haven't the Filipinos already solved their own problems? Before you answer, consider the mass of the capital influx into China and India, and what effect that has had on the very poor.

What would the continental US taxpayers (who are suffering a pretty bad job market) think when the government starts to actively encourage (or even partially fund with favorable tax treatment) the creation of tens of millions of jobs in the Philippines?

We are not talking about a 5 year plan here, more like 20 years or more.

When was the last time a US politician thought 20 years ahead about anything? Twenty years ago Donald Rumsfeld was shaking Saddam Hussein's hand, and the US was still giving portable anti-air missiles to Islamic extremists.

And, of course, federal assistance would not kick in until we used economic means to raise the people out of poverty. This would not take as long as you believe.

First of all, where in the US constitution does it allow you to discriminate against US citizens this way? We're not talking about federal assistance, we're talking about medicare and other federal rights of a citizen.

The Philippines suffers systematic problems with communication and transportation, hindered by a corrupt and inefficient government bureaucracy. These, by every past experience, takes a lot of time and money to fix.

Next consider migration. There is a constitutional right to travel freely, which means that every major US city will face a massive influx of population the same way they flock to Manila today. There is precisely zero possibility of preventing that flood. Wages will be depressed, and even the worst paying jobs will become hard to find. Are you familiar with the "squatter" problem that Philippine cities face? "Squatters" are typically poor people seeking jobs in the cities who cannot afford a place to live, and "squat" on other peoples' properties.

Also consider religion. The Philippines is approximately 83% Roman Catholic, which means adding over 60 million Catholic voters. In fact, divorce is illegal in the Philippines. Suffice to say, there is great disincentive to bring in voters who will decidedly sway national debates on controversies.

With American protection, U.S. companies would rush in to take advantage of the cheap labor. The country would transform very quickly.

The Philippines is already under US protection by virtue of a mutual defense treaty. Why does it need to be a US state?

Now, note that I'm not anti-Philippines in the least bit, nor am I even American. I'm presenting to you Filipino problems that would affect a US decision to accept the Philippines as a state. The socio-economic difference is simple too big today for the Philippines not to become a significant burden to the US economy and tax base.

Re:RP history...

[Corpus_Callosum]

If it's such simple stuff, why haven't the Filipinos already solved their own problems? Before you answer, consider the mass of the capital influx into China and India, and what effect that has had on the very poor.

It's primarily a problem of confidence and protection. With the U.S. protecting the Philippines (both economically and militarily), U.S. companies (not to mention foreign intrests) would take a much greater interest in the region.

What would the continental US taxpayers (who are suffering a pretty bad job market) think when the government starts to actively encourage (or even partially fund with favorable tax treatment) the creation of tens of millions of jobs in the Philippines?

Since the track is to make the Philippines into a state, the idea is to shift relationships and labor usage from unaffilated third-world countries into the Philippines. A larger workforce creates a larger economy and vastly increases the overall wealth and prosperity of the whole if done correctly. The amount of money that would be spent in the Philippines building infrastructure (mostly contracted out to U.S. firms) would more then compensate for the shift of cheap labor to the Philippines. But the economics is more complex than just that. The key is simbiosis and intention to merger. Doing the same thing with a foreign country without that intention would be devestating economically.

When was the last time a US politician thought 20 years ahead about anything? Twenty years ago Donald Rumsfeld was shaking Saddam Hussein's hand, and the US was still giving portable anti-air missiles to Islamic extremists.

It is not necessary for politicians to think 20 years ahead. Today, U.S. politicians have very serious problems on their hands because of outsourcing of U.S. jobs (a trend that will grow larger) to third-world countries. if they could re-route that effort to the Philippines while laying claim to be doing it to help establish an economy for the 51st state somewhere down the road, it provides them with a political shield against the masses while simultaneously appeasing big business.

It certainly would be necessary to plan somewhat, but the think-tanks that build diplomatic agreements will do that regardless. The important point is that there are advantages TODAY, TOMORROW and in the distant future to going down this path.

First of all, where in the US constitution does it allow you to discriminate against US citizens this way? We're not talking about federal assistance, we're talking about medicare and other federal rights of a citizen.

They would not yet be part of the U.S. and it would not be discrimination. It would be a gradual increase in standard of living, synchronized to the upgrades to industry and infrastructure. As I mentioned before, the federal assistance would be staged in such a way that by the time they are ready to be a state, the required assistance would not be a burden. Never would we worsen their conditions, we would always be improving them. We just couldn't do it all at once because, as you correctly pointed out, it would be devestating economically for the U.S. to do that.

Also consider religion. The Philippines is approximately 83% Roman Catholic, which means adding over 60 million Catholic voters. In fact, divorce is illegal in the Philippines. Suffice to say, there is great disincentive to bring in voters who will decidedly sway national debates on controversies.

The U.S. : Protestant 56%, Roman Catholic 28%, Jewish 2%, other 4%, none 10% (1989)

Primarily Christian - yes, there are twice as many Protestant as Catholic. But in the U.S., this is not an issue like it is in Brittain. We have even had a Catholic president (Kennedy).

You could even say this works to the advantage of the Philipp

Re:RP history...

[GlassHeart]

It's primarily a problem of confidence and protection. With the U.S. protecting the Philippines (both economically and militarily), U.S. companies (not to mention foreign intrests) would take a much greater interest in the region.

I did not make myself clear. Despite massive investments into China and India, the very poor are not seeing the money trickle down to them, so all the attention from capitalists isn't benefiting the poor. This makes perfect sense, because capitalists are not terribly concerned about poverty.

If you look at Iraq as an example, you'll note that private companies are not rushing into Iraq to help build roads and bridges. They are contracted by the US government to build roads and bridges, using US taxpayer money.

This investment in infrastructure may eventually lead to real private investments, and may eventually lead to an improvement of overall living standards. For the most part, however, what we're seeing all over the world is a relatively small class of direct beneficiaries (i.e., the Indian software engineer), rather than improvements across the board. The process you are hoping for is neither cheap nor simple!

More importantly, we're talking about a significant up-front public investment before the country would be more interesting (than it is today) to private investments. That up-front money is almost certainly going to be tax money.

The U.S. : Protestant 56%, Roman Catholic 28%, Jewish 2%, other 4%, none 10% (1989) [...] But in the U.S., this is not an issue like it is in Brittain.

I think you are naive to discount the political resistance that a large homogenous infusion of additional voters will invite. The Christian Right may not mind a whole lot, but consider what a pro-choice organization would have to think. Remember, this is a country that bans divorce, so it's entirely likely that controversial issues will be decisively put to rest by this new voting bloc. I simply don't think you've considered the impact of a third more eligible voters to the political establishment, with the power to put an entire political party out of business for decades at least.

They no longer have our bases in operation there and they are most certainly not under our economic protection.

The Philippines is under essentially the same umbrella that other NATO countries are. It has no real external security concerns, and Americans are already helping the Philippines deal with a chronic Muslim insurgency.

Now, I'm not saying what you propose isn't possible. The US is a large and rich country, and is technically able to absorb a smaller poor country the way West Germany absorbed East Germany. However, I am saying that this isn't viable, because of the size of the problems confronting the Philippines, and because there's no real US political will to push through with this. The Filipino elite, contrary to your suggestions, would not be losers in this proposition. Their land will not be taken away and given to the poor.

Finally, assuming your dream scenario does occur, and the Philippines is built up and the rest of the US takes advantage of its cheaper labor for a couple of decades. You will then face the same problem again: the cost of doing business in the Philippines will become comparable to elsewhere in the US. The jobs will be outsourced again. What country will you merge with then?

Furthermore, as with all major decisions, you also need to consider the cases when things don't go your way. What if you fail to raise the living standards in the Philippines? You now have 80 million more mouths to feed, with a government already in deficit spending and a social security system on the brink of collapse.

Re:RP history...

[Corpus_Callosum]

did not make myself clear. Despite massive investments into China and India, the very poor are not seeing the money trickle down to them, so all the attention from capitalists isn't benefiting the poor. This makes perfect sense, because capitalists are not terribly concerned about poverty.

If you look at Iraq as an example, you'll note that private companies are not rushing into Iraq to help build roads and bridges. They are contracted by the US government to build roads and bridges, using US taxpayer money.

This investment in infrastructure may eventually lead to real private investments, and may eventually lead to an improvement of overall living standards. For the most part, however, what we're seeing all over the world is a relatively small class of direct beneficiaries (i.e., the Indian software engineer), rather than improvements across the board. The process you are hoping for is neither cheap nor simple!

More importantly, we're talking about a significant up-front public investment before the country would be more interesting (than it is today) to private investments. That up-front money is almost certainly going to be tax money.

Actually, perhaps I wasn't clear. It is the fact that the U.S. intends to make it a state that would draw foreign investment. It is the fact that the U.S. intends to make it a state that would draw U.S. companies in. It is the fact that the U.S. intends to make it a state that would usher in infrastructure upgrades. It is the fact that the U.S. would require certain minimum sustenance levels paid out by employers during the run-up to a State that would distribute the new wealth (from all of the new investment and commerce) throughout the region.

Economics is about confidence. If the U.S. states, unequivocally, "The Philippines will become a State in 30 years", the economy of the region will go into hyperdrive.

Finally, assuming your dream scenario does occur, and the Philippines is built up and the rest of the US takes advantage of its cheaper labor for a couple of decades. You will then face the same problem again: the cost of doing business in the Philippines will become comparable to elsewhere in the US. The jobs will be outsourced again. What country will you merge with then?

That becomes someone else's problem. At least it did the trick when we needed it to.

Furthermore, as with all major decisions, you also need to consider the cases when things don't go your way. What if you fail to raise the living standards in the Philippines? You now have 80 million more mouths to feed, with a government already in deficit spending and a social security system on the brink of collapse.

Obviously, if it fails, it remains a commonwealth or whatever... It doesn't become a state and it doesn't get to put itself on wellfare.

Re:RP history...

[GlassHeart]

Actually, perhaps I wasn't clear. It is the fact that the U.S. intends to make it a state that would draw foreign investment. It is the fact that the U.S. intends to make it a state that would draw U.S. companies in.

No, your point was quite clear. I'm just entirely unconvinced that a simple statement will redirect investments.

What exactly would entice a business into investing in the Philippines, especially if the US government states that its goal is to lift standards of living (and therefore operating costs for businesses) dramatically? These businesses go to China and India precisely because they are poor countries, and will immediately go elsewhere when that changes. They can exploit the Philippines right now if they wanted to, given the lax law enforcement and easily bribable bureaucracy.

For that matter, we're talking about businesses that aren't even willing to invest in continental America! Why would declaring its eventual statehood attract investments? Where's the money coming from and going into?

If the U.S. states, unequivocally, "The Philippines will become a State in 30 years", the economy of the region will go into hyperdrive.

Please go into some more detail about how this would happen. You seem to take it almost as an article of faith, but I fear capitalists are far more cynical than you imagine.

Obviously, if it fails, it remains a commonwealth or whatever... It doesn't become a state and it doesn't get to put itself on wellfare.

You contradict yourself. If the Philippines can be allowed to fail, then the "30 year plan" to statehood would not mean nearly as much to investors. If it cannot be allowed to fail, then you'll find yourself propping up the currency against speculators among other problems, and you may ultimately find yourself 80 million more mouths to feed, not to mention a massive debt to inherit.

You can't have it both ways. If you don't want investors to wait and see what happens, then you'll need to make commitments and honor those commitments even if the Philippines doesn't ramp up as quickly as you had imagined. Who's going to guarantee the additional debt that the Philippines will inevitably incur during this build-up?

It is the fact that the U.S. intends to make it a state that would usher in infrastructure upgrades.

This is a pipe dream. Private investors do not spend money on basic infrastructure; governments do. Somebody has to spend a large amount of money to upgrade infrastructure in the Philippines. Who is this somebody, if not the US taxpayers?

Sorry, but your "if you build it they will come" proposal just doesn't seem realistic to me at all. There's simply not a lot stopping US investors from putting money into the Philippines, and the fact that they aren't lining up to do so is pretty deafening unless you're going to assert that the only reason for these business decisions is political.

Re:RP history...

[Corpus_Callosum]

At this point, we will agree to disagree.

While I certainly could spend time building arguments for my positions, I'm afraid I don't really see the point of doing that right now.

Best of luck to you. Muganang Gabi at Salamat.

Burning

[phorm]

Christians also seem to be the only ones telling me I'm going to burn in hell forever. Doesn't seem very nice of them.

Christians semi-often tell this to each other, so I wouldn't pay too much attention to it. One of the reasons I dislike and do not attend church is that many, in addition to the nice music etc, spend too much time telling me the things I will burn for and less pointing out the good things people are doing - or can do.

Not all Christians are bad, but a goodly many (and keep in mind I'm technically Christian) spend too much time stamping out "the devil" and trying to fight supposed evils as opposed to trying to do good.

Re:Quality of life [OT]

[kellman]

Good call! I wish I could fit the whole quote in my sig. Maybe I'll just have to copy an paste it every time I post. lol

Growing internal development

[RandBlade]

One of the good things with this sort of trade is that it builds up internal knowledge within India, helping it develop towards the living standards we have in the 'west'. My question is, are nearly all new IT jobs which are being created within India 'offshoring' jobs where their product is being sent to the west, or is India yet experiencing an internal boom? Are self-reliant jobs being created yet within the domestic Indian economy?

Corpus Im looking for a really good Russian Firm

[BraveHeart007]

Can you help in suggesting one. This is a small project but i need a wizbang programmer. Can you email me at research_gate@yahoo.com if you can comeup with a name. Regards Erik

===LOOKING FOR GOOD RUSSIAN PROGRAMMING COMPANY===

[BraveHeart007]

PLEASE EMAIL ME AT research_gate@yahoo.com Regards, Erik

Cost of **making** engineers

[cryant]

The approximate cost of teaching a student at a permier Public Institute in India is approx. $4000 per year. Over a 4-yr undergraduate degree is $20000. Most of that is Indian tax-payer money and 90% of these graduates from such schools (IIT's) end up in the US, either setting up shop in US or worknig for Fortune 100 companies. Not much is lost in outsourcing, US owes quite a few $$$ anyways.

Weapons of Mass Outsourcing

[cryant]

Bounty: $ 6bil per year

Re: Competition, Indian style

[Noziglia]

There is one aspect of the outsourcing to India phenomenon that is being ignored in everything I've read on the topic. That is the Indian government. The pattern has been that Indian entrepreneurs find niches that the government does not regulate and make fortunes. The next step is that the government realizes that this market is profitable, and thus needs to be regulated (ipso facto, as it were). They pass new laws "deregulating" the market (say, VOIP telephony, satellite TV, cell phones, etc.), which in reality impose regulations. Outcome: the market dies, killed by regulatory restrictions, the cost of bribes, and lack of fexibility. This has happened again and again. My prediction is that now that everyone is talking about how successful Indian businesses are in the outsourcing market, the government will soon start to impose regulations, and the growth in that enterprise will die. Look to the Phillipines, Malaysia, and Indonesia, though the governments in those countries are worse.

Re:PS. What is a right?

[composer777]

According to this logic, those that live outside the US have no rights, since the "Declaration of Independence" only applies to the US (after all, it's US independence that they're declaring, right?). If one's rights are determined only by a sheet of paper, and only applicalbe depending on the geographical region that they live in, then that would seem to be evidence of the arbitrary nature of how a value is assigned the status of a "right".

Note that just because something is arbitrarily defined and agreed upon as a right doesn't make it any less so, my point was that rights are not some immutable law of nature, they are decided upon by people, not dictated by some authority. Therefore, saying that something is not a right is not an argument that it shouldn't be one. Up until recently, citizens of Iraq had no right to vote, however, that's not a good reason to deny them that right. Your argument was basically saying, "You don't have a right to a job, therefore, you shouldn't have a right to a job."

Now, of course, the citizens of right have been granted the right to vote. Why do that have that right? Because we said so, or, if they had fought for their independence, it would have been because they had demanded it. That's it, there's no "why" behind it, it's a right because it's defined as such, period. If we suddenly decided that being able to earn a subsitence living equivalent to a 3rd world farmer is a right, then that will be a right too. That's how democracy works. It seems to me like you're used to having things dictated to you, and then regurgitatiing it as an immutable fact, which, being an American citizien, shouldn't surprise me one bit.