Slashdot Mirror
Ask Indian Techies About 'Onshore Insourcing'
This Slashdot interview has a little twist to it. Instead of using email, I'm going to relay your questions 'live' to people I meet while I'm here in New Delhi, speaking at LinuxAsia2004. Offshore outsourcing has gotten a lot of attention on Slashdot (and NewsForge) lately, but I figure that from this end we ought to call it 'onshore insourcing' instead. Feel free to ask other questions about 'geek life' in India, too; I'll ask as many questions as I can of as many people as I can, and post their answers when I'm back in the U.S.
Long before outsourcing to India became an issue, large IT companies like American Airlines were virtual H1-B "hardship" visa factories, importing large numbers of technical experts from India and other countries during the dot-com boom.
But when the boom went bust, and the layoffs came, H1-B visa holders were left out in the cold, unable to even look for a new job due to the terms of their visas.
Do the IT professionals you've met feel that US companies and the US government used bait-and-switch tactics to take advantage of cheaper non-US workers? Or did those applying for H1-B visas know what they were in for?
And a follow-up question: does anyone think that US companies will hesitate to leave their outsourcing partners high and dry as soon as they (again) find a cheaper alternative?
Stressed? Me? Of course not. Stress is what a rubber band feels before it breaks, silly.
And is this for here or to go?
Ask them how they like my job.
Xenon, where's my money? -Borno
Out of the $25 it costs my company to hire an India-based developer, how much does that developer see, and how much goes to the contracting agency (Wipro, etc...)?
"The natural progress of things is for liberty to yield and government to gain ground." - Thomas Jefferson
How much experience do most Indian programmers have? It seems to me that in ramping up from a few hundred to thosands of programmers over the past few years, most of these people must be fresh out of school... how much training do people need before they start producing reliable results?
"Freedom means freedom for everybody" -- Dick Cheney
American workers have certain legal protections that drive up the cost of our wages. Do Indians have similar protections in the workplace? Are you allowed to organize into unions? How long is your work week? What are your working conditions like? What kind of benifits do you have? Vacation? Medical? Dental? Profit sharing? Stock options? I find myself wondering, if the playing field were truly level, would your labor still be so inexpensive?
But this is slashdot. A slashdoter who didn't build his own computer is like a Jedi who didn't build his own lightsaber!
The most important question I would like to ask is "Is the picture there as rosy as painted by the media?"
From what I keep hearing, the scenario there right now is being compared to the tech boom here (in US) in the 90s. Is it true that "If you have a degree, immaterial of what degree, you can get a tech job."
Free XBox, PS2
How do you feel about competing on what I see as a non-competitive playing field? $11,000 per year is a good salary in India, but wouldn't allow me to live above poverty in any U.S city.
With one billion people in India, what is being done to increase the number of employable people? Granted, while we in the US may not like our jobs leaving, it must be helpful to Indians. What is being done to increase the employability of the average Indian?
libertarianswag.com
Ask them if slashdot is popular in New Dehli?
To what effect is the Indian education making changes to keep up with the demand for trained IT people?
With the influx of cash and availability of higher incomes (according to local standards), how'd Indian real estate market doing? What does it cost to rent a two-bedroom for the family? To buy a house?
Do you think that Indian IT boom will repeat Californian and Eastern European patterns, where availability of US dollars drove the living costs through the roof, thus making developers not a whole lot cheaper than hiring local American engineers?
Do you see the costs rising in Indian real estate market? What would be the monthly salary, according to your estimate, to have a comfortable living in India in 2004, and let's say, 2009?
What is the bigget contrast between work and daily life in terms of:
-Internet Connection
-Electrictiy
-Water
-Living Space size when compared to office size
Don't Tread on OpenSource
What does a decent 2 bedroom apartment cost per month?
How about food for 1 month?
Utilities, etc?
"The last thing I want to do is deal with a bunch of people who want something."
Major Major
Athletic Scholarships to universities make as much sense as academic scholarships to sports teams.
How do you feel about the American programmers that are angry they lost their jobs to outsourcing? Do you think they have a right to be angry?
Is the attitude positive because of the increase in trade between us, negative because of cultural invasion, or a combination?
And I'm serious, don't just say "Oh, we love the West" if all you like is the outsourced job. I personally feel that trade is the best form of foreign aid, but I'd rather have an honest enemy than a ally who lies to me.
Call centre staff can earn more than teachers, police, nurses, etc - are those professions suffering as a result of the call centres picking out the English speakers?
Is this storing up problems for India's public sector in the future?
oh brave new world, that has such people in it!
This point has already been mentioned a bit by previous articles, but I'd like to hear an insider's take on it. The Indian tech economy is booming now, but like in the US, it's an unstable boom. Sooner or later, the US will look to other countries for their tech work, leaving India high and dry. What measures are being taken in India to maintain a strong internal tech economy, in the event that the US is no longer a serious customer?
---
"Every jumbled pile of person has a thinking part that wonders what the part that isn't thinking isn't thinking of"-TMBG
Totally off topic, but I've always wondered: is the character Apu Nahasapeemapetilon on The Simpsons insulting to Indian's? Do they even air The Simpsons there?
What training is given to them to understand the Western culture that their products are meant to serve? Is there some sort of liason who answers questions about the good ol US of A? Are you meant to assume certain things?
Some of my cousins in India tell me that those tech center jobs, such as Dell Tech Support, are actually prestigious in India. Is a tech center job really considered a job to brag about, even though in the US tech support people aren't really admired, to say the least?
There exists I think an assumption that the tech industry in India is a legion of coders being handed work from foreign companies, grunting it out for lower wages. Do Indian techs feel that they have the opportunity now to become the producers, the designers, the ones who create businesses? Frankafrank
"Other bands play, but Manowar KILLS"
Do you have a comparable quality of life to those in the US and UK? Does it bother you at all that you may be taking a job from a person in another country because you are working for what that other country considers a 'lesser' wage, but you consider a very good wage? Do you have any worries that this boom in outsourcing from the rest of the world may abruptly end, much like the dot.com boom ended, and if it does, what will you do then? how do you see India's econmy being effected by this? How much training and knowledge of programming do you have, what qualifications and such do you hold?
And this was not the case here in the USA during the "Dot Com Boom"? I sense an invalid argument...
"Who are in control, they are not in control of anything - they don't even control themselves!" - Glen Beck
My school's CS department was/is full of Indians. Do most of these students come here hoping to get jobs in America when they graduate or are they interested in going back to India and taking advantage of the outsourcing boom there? Are we as American technical workers shooting ourselves in the foot by helping to train our replacements in American academic institutions?
I'd ask: what are you all planning to do when your jobs go to Russia as soon as you become too expensive for the US corporations? Plan now, because it's starting to happen.
Hopefully you guys are able to weather the storm better than us.
"The market alone cannot provide sufficient constraints on corporation's penchant to cause harm." -- Joel Bakan
I know many Americans resent programming jobs going to India. A decade ago, did Indian engineers/programmers resent America for forcing them to leave to find jobs in a land far from home?
I took several certification tests on BrainBench.com. I noticed that many, many of the top 100 scorers on each test had Indian sounding names. Do BrainBench and similar certs mean anything in India?
You know... because of the cow thing...
(It's a joke people!)
---- It puts the lotion on its skin or else it gets the hose again. It does this whenever it's told.
First off, for the record, I underwent a 5 month unemployment (wonderful economy we now have), and am still digging out from the debt that I went into.
Currently ATT, IBM, and HP have been busy off-shoring (BTW, after the Nov. election, Sun and MS will be joining that in a BIG way if my friends from these companies are being honest). These companies have moving to places that are preceived lower costs. The real problem, though, has been bad management that selects based on politics rather than on skills. With the off-shoring, they will also go and in these sites, costs will go up.
Now, the real thing. If you have smarts and you have a good degree, quite your carping. Think about what is lacking out there that you can develop and sell. There are plenty of interesting ideas and business models. Jump on it. My only suggestion is do not simply hire your friends. Look out on the web and find some of the best ppl for the job. The tech industry has already shown that a distributed model works for it. This is your opportunity to create something. When there is upheavel in an industry is the time to be there.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
There are many here who read slashdot who do computer stuff for the love of computers. They work on OpenSource projects for no money. In their spare time, they use a computer. Lots here, I would say, would be happy with half decent pay and just program all day long.
Do the majority do compter related employees do it for the money or for the love or working with computers?
If they were offered more money, would they switch in an instant?
The surprise isn't how often we make bad choices; the surprise is how seldom they defeat us.
We hear conflicting reports from "$11,000 means you could live like a king" to "Material goods are so expensive there that you'd be much worse off there than here." What are conditions like for the average Indian programmer?
I find it interesting that us American programmers are so elitist. Most think that your education and creativity must be less than the American whos job you are stealing. I find this trite and rude. When I was in college in California we had Indian programmers who were excellent programmers. They were educated in the UK English system with excellent math and computer teaching. I know that India is a 3rd world country and many students travel abroad to get a quality education. How would you rate the Indian universities and programming vocational schools for preparing programmers to be great at their jobs when compared to their US counterparts?
- Kill Yourself, spare us all! -
every country has it's own free software projects (that they are either started or maintain or fund). the usa can point to the gnu project, finland to linux, ireland to spamassassin, germany to gpg, wales to kernel hacking and gnome bug hunting and translations, etc.
i think there's a lack of visability in english-speaking countries as to the contributions from non-english speaking countries. what free software projects are "indian" that those of us in the english speaking world might not be aware of?
US Citizen living abroad? Register to vote!
Several people have brought out cultural differences between the US and India. However, I would like to ask about language. Based upon my personal experiences with call centers and such, I am aware that this can be a problem.
Does learning US English present a problem, or is that just one more set of classes that must be taken?
Does the ability to speak US english set one apart (is it more valuable to an employer) from other employment candidates, or is that only for those who deal with North Americans?
Do non-english speakers have issues (like, dislike) with english speakers?
Is there a difference between learning US english and UK english, both? or does it matter?
How early does one begin to learn english as a second language? (The european model is to begin around the seventh, eighth year of schooling, I think...)
---John McKell
One of the arguments for free trade and the internationalization of companies and the work force is the raising of living standards around the world--the rising tide lifts all ships.
The argument against is that companies in the USA out-source and move off-shore to save money--increasing profits by paying less in wages and widening the gap between rich and poor.
From the USA it's pretty clear that whatever the intent, the result is the later. Ford doesn't build in China so Chinese workers can earn enough to buy Fords; Ford builds in China to make more profit on cars it sells in North America and Europe. (To be fair, the American worker complains about jobs moving over seas, then goes to WalMart and insists on $10 shirts and fresh tomatoes year round.)
So how do things look on the other side? Is the Indian standard of living raised by this influx of foreign work, or do companies pay just enough to be competitive to the existing standard and keep the benefits of free trade at the top?
I'd like to know how long it will be before Indian tech professionals start forming startup companies to compete directly with their American corporate masters using what they have learned from them.
The Indians are not stupid. They know that it's just a matter of time before the tech jobs go to the next lowest bidder. And just as British imperial domination was thrown off, so will American corporate domination. The American companies that have rushed to offshore outsourcing would be wise not to underestimate the power of nationalism.
To the making of books there is no end, so let's get started
From friends and colleagues I know a little bit about the caste system in India - both in terms of it's positive and negative discrimination so I wondered what sort of effect if any does this have on your work? For instance, a lot of software is developed in teams - are there sensitive issues to resolve if different members of the team are from different castes ?
1) Do you (developer) find any communication problems with your customers? How much is the variance between your understanding and what the customer wants? What is the amount of face time/interaction do you have during the project?
:-) )
2) What is the typical lifecycle of a project? Do you have some feedback system to improve quality and processes?
3) What are the hoops you have to jump through (SEI certifications and the lot) to prove your competence? Is it any use at the end of the day?
(more than one question posted since this isn't a traditional interview. And outsourcers should work 3 times harder, dammit!!
This is not a question for the Indian techies but rather a comment about the many angry and distressed comments about outsourcing.
First, outsourcing is not new. Every great industry has been built on the ruins of another, somewhere else. Textiles, agriculture, automobiles, shipbuilding, steel,... we've always seen jobs move to where they cost less.
Secondly, although this always hurts those losing their jobs, it almost always brings much greater benefits back than those jobs would keep. Example: without the cheap Asian ships and cheap third-world sailors who man them, everything you buy would cost much more.
Thirdly, there is nothing quite as stimulating as the collapse of one industry to create new ones. Do you really wish you worked in a coal mine? Much of software production has become so routine and monotonous that it's the modern equivalent of industrial labour. There is a reason why these jobs can be done more cheaply, and it's only partly because the Indian workforce is cheap. It's also because the very jobs have become banal.
Consider China, the factory of the world, sending its goods to every country and region of the world. China, which is today the world's second largest importer of goods and services. Instead of trying to compete with a Chinese DVD player at $15, consider that Rolex sells more real solid gold $15,000 watches in China than in any other country.
The rise of the Indian technical support industry should be seen as a sign of hope: thousands, millions of new customers for the leading-edge products that you should be capable of designing and delivering.
Trade is not a pie that you slice and share. It's a reaction that needs constant movement to keep active and grow. Every new Indian job means new opportunities and jobs here in the US as well. It just takes imagination and drive to make it happen.
Well, I do have one question for our Indian colleagues: how do you feel about the bitching that most Westerners show when asked about Indian IT? I mean, presumably you studied hard and feel that you're allowed to compete fairly on an open market?
Ceci n'est pas une signature
I'm assuming this is not a serious post...
1. How's it feel being detested by most of an entire industry back in the US of A (with the exception of the bean counters) ?
I'm a developer in the US, and I still have my job, but I'm having a hard time finding a software job in the geographic area where I want to move. But I don't detest the Indian people, nor do I feel that they've "stolen a job" from me. They're people like us. They want to make a living, they want to provide for themselves and their families, they want what most of us want. Jobs are available, and they're taking them. It's not like they're gathering together in some secret clubhouse buried under a cavern in the Himalayas and plotting how to make Americans' lives miserable. The reason this is happening is because of globalization, and personally, I still haven't decided if I think it's a good thing or not. I'm not going to have the knee-jerk reaction of "Of course it's bad", because the fact is, monetarily speaking, one of me is worth about four top-notch Indian developers. At the same time, though, enrollment in CS and engineering in US schools is plummeting, with the exception of foreign students. Globalization is great until relations break down between us and the country where our talent pool lives.
So speaking as an American programmer whose current livelihood is threatened by globalization, I can say that I hold no grudge against India, Russia, China, or any other country whose citizens are no less human than I am, and whose governments have the same capacity for corruption as my own. My job is marginally safer, since I work for a defense contractor. But it's just a matter of time before my job goes away too, and I'm willing to change careers if I have to. Sure, I could rail against India and American CEOs and bean counters, but that won't put food on my table.
---
"Every jumbled pile of person has a thinking part that wonders what the part that isn't thinking isn't thinking of"-TMBG
Do you feel that your IT career depends too much on US companies and the US economy? Do you feel that your country's economic policies should instead focus on local business, local infrastructure, etc? Or, do you feel US dependence is part of the "growing process" that will lead later to more self-sufficiency?
Table-ized A.I.
How much does an Indian college education cost the typical student? Is it government subsidized, or are students expected to pick up the entire cost? And how does that cost compare to the average yearly salary of a college-educated technology worker (ie, how long does it take you to pay of college debt?)
It seems as if I always hear of American management being exported to handle outsourced projects. What kind of opportunity for vertical mobility does that leave for Indian employees? Is there a "glass ceiling" that prevents you from reaching senior programmer, project manager or other leadership positions? Are all your supervisors and bosses Westerners or do some of you work for other native employees? Does this situation cause any resentment, and if so, have you considered or do you know of any that are planning becoming entrepreneurs? Lastly, what kind of resources are provided by Indian government to promote the growth of entrepreneurial business such as grants, loans or tax breaks?
So far it would seem that the majority of IT work US companies have outsourced to India has focused on business support functions. The real innovation (product development, R&D) is still done in the US. Do you think Indian technology companies will try to be competitive in this area as well?
Its a cultural thing. Indian culture glorifies engineering and math study. American popular culture actively discourages it. It makes perfect sense, thus, that there would be a higher percentage of Indians in engineering and CS.
A deep unwavering belief is a sure sign you're missing something...
The international reaction to H1-B was the first question on my mind as well. How many people came back from the US with a great deal of resentment?
On the other hand, I suspect that a good number of people came back from the US with a black book full of contacts, a project or two and perhaps a little seed money.
You know, Slashdot does have quite a sizeable Indian community, though you might not be aware of it. So you might think about asking the questions here itself!
/.. Anyway, now that I'm done introducing myself let me see if I can answer some of the highest moderated questions.
I am an Indian and currently working for Tata Consultancy Services Ltd., India's largest software company that recently exceeded 1 billion dollars in revenue. Right now I am stationed in South America from where we cater to most of the Latin American countries. I'm pretty much the typical 'target' of most of the American outsourcing anger that gets vented here on
How do you feel about the American programmers that are angry they lost their jobs to outsourcing? Do you think they have a right to be angry?
The way most Indians see it, this is mostly American capitalism biting them back in the ass. We do the same thing you do, but we do it at cheaper rates. Sure, we understand that Americans wouldn't be too happy about losing their high-paying jobs, but that is something they will just have to deal with.
Cost of living etc. in India, with emphasis on real estate etc.
Most people who start out in the Indian IT industry do not earn that well. On an average, I would say it is pretty much the same as what one would get after graduating from one of the other engineering disciplines like EE, CE etc. However, with a few years of experience one can get quite a comfortable job. For example, a typical IT worker with 3-4 years of experience can land themselves a job that pays about Rs. 40,000 per month (~ $1000). This is a good income in a country like India where you can have servants in your house for about Rs. 2,000 per month. AFAIK, there has been no study which studies the impact of these new IT jobs on the real estate market, but obviously some effect must be there.
Is the picture there as rosy as painted by the media?
I hate to say this on Slashdot, but it is actually quite good. Students from reputable colleges and universities do not find it difficult to find jobs in the IT sector. However, I would not agree that the degree does not matter. Most companies (the good ones anyway) are quite choosy about the people they pick.
How much experience do most Indian programmers have?
I would say ~5 years on an average. Agreed, there are a LOT of new people coming into the industry, attracted by the 'gold rush', but there are quite a few old veterans here as well. For example, my company is over 35 years old, and it is not uncommon to find people who have been here for the past 7-8 years.
American workers have certain legal protections that drive up the cost of our wages. Do Indians have similar protections in the workplace? Are you allowed to organize into unions? How long is your work week? What are your working conditions like? What kind of benifits do you have? Vacation? Medical? Dental? Profit sharing? Stock options? I find myself wondering, if the playing field were truly level, would your labor still be so inexpensive?
No, the story you hear about 'sweatshops' are not true. Yes, we do have benefits. No, there no unions, yet. A typical week is 40 hours (8x5), but almost always is more than that, depending on the work load. Sometimes people do work for 15 hours straight, but on other days they also go home after putting in their normal 8 hours. We have vacations and medical benefits. TCS itself is not a public company, so there are no stock options here, but other public companies do give the option to their employees. Labour is inexpensive primarily because of two reasons - there are a LOT of people in India, and the cost of living is quite low.
How does it feel to have your skills and knowledge continuously disparaged by people with little or no experience of working with Indian programmers?
Personally, it bothers me
Total bullshit. If you live in the Bay Area or New York City, a Starbucks assistant manager makes $24,000-$26,000 a year.
The grunts working the line make minimum wage, with perhaps a dollar an hour in tips on top of that. Minimal benefits kick in at 20 hours a week. The clientele I wouldn't wish on anyone.
I'm a proud former Starbucks employee, free as of March 2003. Worst job I've ever had.
Boycott everything - they're all trying to fuck you one way or another
Can you give some info and pointers about the CS/IT/telecom education in India, especially at unversity level? I'm interested in how qualified the tech sector workers are in India.
I work in India, and I am employed writing software. I make about 7000 rupees a week, and I work about ten hours a day on the average it changes every week. You are right that money is different here. For instance a succelent dinner for two is about fifty rupees.
-Srividya
I passionately believe in racial equality and the global community, yet by posting this comment I fear I will be branded a racist. That is part of the problem. Foreign out-sourcing of tech jobs is difficult to discuss because there is always the possibility of genuine, objective criticisms being met with claims of racial prejudice.
I don't work in the tech sector but I have often dealt with Indian technicians who do technical support for a company that I am involved with. I have found the quality of their work to be consistently poor. Specifically:
1. Basic computer knowledge is lacking.
Worst example: A simple hardware problem (insufficient air circulation due to a blocked fan) was twice diagnosed as a software failure and the computer owner was instructed to back-up 40+ Gb of data on to CDRs, format his hard drive and reinstall XP. Remember, this happened *twice*. When the first reinstallation didn't fix the problem, he was told to do exactly the same thing again. (Obviously without the back-ups.)
2. Poor communications skills.
Not just poor English but fundamental communication failings, such as not listening properly and not making any apparent attempt to understand.
I was in a situation last year when an Indian tech support person decided that to disgnose a faulty hard-drive I must follow his instructions for dismantling my own PC. He wanted every component unplugged, removed, and then re-assembled. I tried to follow his instructions but he used left/right and front/back interchangeably, as if there were no difference in meaning, and after half an hour of nervously removing components I was starting to feel a bit out of my depth. If we went much further I wasn't confident that I'd be able to put everything back together so I stopped there. I re-assembled the PC and decided to buy a new hard-drive even though the faulty one was still under warranty.
So my question to Indian tech workers would be:
In my experience, over several years and dealing with dozens of different tech support people, I have found that Indian staff are significantly less knowledgeable, less helpful and overall less good at their jobs. With the obvious exception of cheaper labour, is there one single reason why Indian workers should have these jobs?
Related to the experience question: Many US business pundits claim that the US is only outsourcing the low end code monkey and support jobs, and is keeping the higher end, more prestigeous "project management" and architect jobs in the US?
First, is this the case? or is India also excelling in architectural and design work?
If it is the case, is there a resentment for the imperialistic attitude in only giving India the low end projects?
Finally, in a land where there are real monkeys am I making a big cultural blunder by calling people "code monkeys"?
"Quality of life"? This is a phrase that (and I make assumption here) many Americans use but I do not think they understand. From where I come from, I know people who eat dirt. Not in a joking sense, but in a real sense, as a boy I knew that some dirt would sustain, that you could eat it and survive. I now make 7000 rupees a week... this is a fortune, a true fortune. I can feed everyone I know on what I make in a day.
I am not to be rude, but "Quality of Life" is to be understood.
In India, every mom wants their child to be a doctor or an engineer.
:)
Not a stereotype: I've got a Bangladeshi mom
A deep unwavering belief is a sure sign you're missing something...
Have you, or do you know of people who have been approached to gain unauthorized access to a company or provide corporate information for a fee?
If you where offered 3 times your normal annual salary to provide a copy of a database or other information from a US company would you do it?
Situations such as this are just now starting to come to light as illistrated in this article.
- Nicholas
It's a coffee shop for Pete's sake !
So what? People used to earn a full-time living running bakeries, cafes, newsstands, small hardware stores. Do you have any idea how much money the average Starbucks makes in a week?
You work there while you're young and if you want advancement opportunities, you look for another job outside the coffee shop arena.
Like where? Do you realize that one HALF of the working population is now either:
1) Employed part-time
2) A temp
3) Unemployed
4) Out of the work force completely (gave up trying to find a job)
ONE HALF. So where do we go to find the "good jobs" again? There AIN'T NO MORE GOOD JOBS.
Starbucks pay and benefits are actually better than any other coffee shops out there.
Whew. Makes you want to drop to one knee and weep openly.
an unusually good company to its employees.
Except that they pay shit.
Business isn't willing to pay for products, innovation and careers, so we get brands, mortgage commercials and layoffs.
Why is it okay to have years and years of "free trade" where every country is
coaxed, forced, badgered, bombed into succumbing an still when the same
free trade by the virtue of its definition turns around in one particular instance
there is so much insecurity, so much fear and so much FUD ?
Is it okay to export almost everything you can think of from genetic seeds to WMDs
to third world under tremondous pressure but when they can do a small job
better than you guys you start screaming bloody murder?
Have you all ever stopped and considered why there is so much terrorism in
middle east but why India has grown relatively peaceful (inspite of america's
staunch support to the biggest terrorist neighbour of India that it conviniently
turns a blind eye to while children are taught to hate america in their early
days at holy-schools)?
have you wondered that if you stop looking at the world like the British did,
a place to plunder, loot and exploit maybe, just maybe, the terrorism would
stop since people will have decent meals to eat and your own kids dont
have to get blown into pieces in Iraq so Bush can bask in glory, while
he re-defines marriage so he can deny basic rights to half the people ?
Wake up folks.
DO NOT PANIC
In the U.S., there is something of a geek subculture which Slashdot in particular caters to. Obviously, not all programmers are true geeks at heart, but among the people in America who are really fascinated by computers, you have a greatly disproportionate number who are into science fiction, RPGs/LARPs, Lord of the Rings, Legos, Anime, etc.
Does this apply in India as well? Would, say, a Unix systems programmer there typically have such things as interests? If not, are there analogous hobbies that distinguish the Indian geek from everyone else?
Is cheating still widespread in Colleges in India? I ask this because in 2002 the GRE was canceled in that region due to very high levels of cheating.
I, for one, don't entertain illusions that the US companies would fall in love with our work and ignore cheaper alternatives if they present themselves. I don't think anyone else here does either!
/. thread about this topic).
/. India outsourcing thread, one poster from India praised his firm's CMM level 4 or 5 achievement and talked about how they were getting the business because of their quality efforts. It's a nice goal and it'll retain a couple of accounts, but to pretend for a moment that you're being used because of your quality is like a prostitute thinking she's appreciated for her intellectual qualities.
supersam's got a good point. An associate of mine recently offshored his entire call center operations to the Phillipines. "Why not India?" I asked (after reading a recent
His answer was that India was too expensive. The Phillipines apparently works at half of what he was being quoted for India contracts. Granted, the English is a bit better in India, but when price is king, India's better quality product didn't matter. (India... hope you've enjoyed your 15 minutes!)
Where does it go from here? Many are drooling over China's expansion into these markets. Indonesia would be tempting if it was a bit more stable politically. Whever it can be done cheaper, the business will go.
I did find it amusing in a previous
Hopefully the Corporate "Johns" out there doing the outsourcing (my associate included) will be able to recognize that their own customers assume quality is inherent in their products/services and when their call services, software, manufacturing, etc. is lacking these qualities, consumers will shop with their feet. Still, a visit to WalMart leads me to question whether consumers really care at all about quality. They won't pay for it, but may assume it's there regardless of price.
Bureau of Labor Statistics, 1997
Working-age adults:
Combined unemployed, self-employed, temprorary and part-time workers: approx. 40M or 18.9% of eligible workers.
Not in the work force, approximately 60M or 33% of eligible workers.
Total: 51.9%
Which means fewer than 50% of working-age adults were holding down full-time, permanent jobs. And this was in 1997, when the economy was doing rather well, if I recall.
Business isn't willing to pay for products, innovation and careers, so we get brands, mortgage commercials and layoffs.
A lot of people have already mentioned these facts but I thought I'd put it in a different light.
In your work as a "contracted employee" do you feel that you are providing the best customer service given the fact that English may be a second language for you, and that there might be a language gap?
Also, since the U.S. has such a strict laws regarding the export of its software, that you might not have the same version of the software as the folks whose work you are doing, or the people that you are helping, do you feel that it might hamper your ability to provide the best customer service?
-Goran
Carpe Scrotum - The only way to deal with your competition.
IMHO, it is not just price but the extent to which companies and governments will go to keep the price of their labor low. If it was just the free market at work, wages would raise, and all boats would rise together. Tieing large anchors to the labor force, will cause everyone dependent on wages to sink.
So if a US programmer charges $100/hr, and Indian $10/hr and charges $1/hr, do Indian comapines find themelves outsourcing to other countries (i.e. China, Russia?)
"Look Lois, the two symbols of the Republican Party: an elephant, and a fat white guy who is threatened by change."
Many of those left working for high-tech firms in the USA have had added to their job duties, doing phone interviews of new-hires in India. I have heard rumors that at companies such as Intel it is not uncommon for the indian interviewees to use fraudulent techneques, such as having their more advanced friends do the entire enterview for them. Most americans can't tell the difference, and end up hiring someone other than who they interviewed for the job. Is this a common practice? Have you heard of anyone doing this?
"In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act" - George Orwell
I was in India in 1999. Back when all this insantity started. I was invited through a friend I met on the internet who wanted to setup a web site farm in Mumbai. Of course I had NO idea it would come to this, But he set me up in a hotel in Goa, gave me SOME money, but not enough.
I hustled and got web site development jobs for the Goa Tourist industry, which was booming at the time.
Back then, the internet infrastructure was very primitive at best. Only ISP was the Indian Government's VSNL, and in Goa it was a joke. Even IF you could obtain a free dialup line (then, there were only 64 lines, and 300 internet cafe's competing for them).
The average Indian programmer was getting about $6,000 a year (1999), now I think it
s more like $15,000 and up.
Once word got out I was in Goa, many people flocked to me, but my Indian friend who initialy brought me over to india got all pissed off, because I took on more work without his approval. What could I do? I had to make money, and he wasn't supporting me anymore.
Anyway, India left a sort of "bad taste" in my mouth, not to mention that my body couldn't handle the food and I got sick all the time. Even though I lived in the tropics all my life, I thought I could deal with the Indian climate... BOY! I was wrong... Oppressivly hot in Feb and March, and constant rains in the monsoon season, I urge anyone considering moving to India to consider this.
One of the things my Indian friend pressed me on, was to train all his up-start programmers. At that time, I was a bit Naive, and eventually got fed up with the monsoons and left in July.
Anyway, this is MY experience in India.... I learned a lot (even picked up some Hindi).
Indians probably think of us Americans as speaking English with a very heavy accent. Almost everybody that speaks English speaks it with an accent typical to the country of their origin. What is the "accent benchmark"? So stop giving them hell about their accent. There are quite a few accents in America that are terribly hard to understand.
Think about what is lacking out there that you can develop and sell.
Couldn't find the message cubicledrone was quoting on this, but I was amazed to read it. The only person who would say something like that is someone who hasn't been unemployed for long, and who thinks they haven't been because they're such a wonderful asset.
Let me caution you to be modest and wise. Develop your network, keep skills current. There are lots of smart, creative people who have been out of work for months and years. It's not a reflection on their abilities. Getting work can be hard, and being out of work drags you down in just about every way.
Do you find VA software a strategic partner in your outsourcing ("offshoring") efforts? Did you know that they were a "relatively early adopter" of providing services to aid in this task?
Do you find it amusing that they try to stir up emotions by posting offshoring stories on slashdot to increase ad revenue from those hit hardest from outsourcing? Many readers voice their hatred of the act and are infact boosting the revenue of a company whose survival rests on the increased move of jobs to foriegn countries.
Do you consider VA Software to be a respectable organization?
VA Software Provides Better Governance For Offshore Outsourcing
VA Software Uses Own 'Offshoring' Experience to Tune Flagship Product for Hot Growth Market
"Open Source?" - Press any key to continue
..the US produced the computer industry as it exists today, and were it not for the dot-com boom, the web as we know it today would not exist. The only reason so many untrained people over here were able to make so much money was because there was an amazing revolution going on. Poor investing aside, no one can argue that the US has not created the modern computing industry as it exists today, and we have years of experience going back to the days of the mainframes. India, on the other hand, appears to have contributed precisely jack shit to all of this, and it's very understandable that they're going to want to want a piece of the pie now that they can just go buy a book and pirate a copy of windows XP and take advantage of the American computer revolution. The US should implement protectionist policies immediately, much like those India is implementing to keep US programmers from competing with Indian workers for their own jobs. Considering it was the US' commitment to education and entrepreneurship that created this world of technology, we have every right to introduce legislation to stop corporate greed from giving the benefit to others.
But there is another kind of evil that we must fear most... and that is the indifference of good men.
Any technical high school or university will be taught near entirely in english, as well as professional degrees such as law, medicine, etc. Both my parents did undergrad science in india and were taught exclusively in english. So I'm guessing they aren't targetting the educated.
My Q:
Given that the US has reaped the benefit of capitalism for hundreds of years which has seen them (and the rest of the first world) exploit the third world ruthlessly, do you not find it hypocrytical that US IT workers are now complaining about receiving 'the back of the invisible hand'?
I sense a new business opportunity!! Grey computer boxes with big floppy ears on them!
---- It puts the lotion on its skin or else it gets the hose again. It does this whenever it's told.
Okay, I have heard many ideas "cloaked in fairness" actually intended to shut down the notion of H1-B visas.
... I'd go do far as to say stuff from everywhere EXCEPT here. (READ: Trade deficit) What happens to the global economy when our consumers can no longer afford to buy stuff? The rest of the supplying world will suffer threatening global ruin to all nations who depend on exports to the U.S.
Why do companies want to use them? Simple-- to save money. It's never been a mystery despite how people want to lie about it. The desire to outsource? It's the same reason: "The Bottom-line."
So while I have read in previous articles that Indian IT workers actually argue that it's not the pay-cost-savings, but the quality of the work that is winning large contracts in India. So I would like an honest bit of feedback on this burning question:
If the U.S. lawmakers were pushed to write legislation that requires that outsourced labor earn 10% over American "fair-market" wages, would that be something you could get behind? Or if you think 10% more is too much for better quality, how about Equal to American "fair-market" wages for the same work? If you think that such law would threaten your current employment status, I think the argument about "quality" doesn't quite pass the acid test.
Sure, this is an embittered question, but it's one that demands honesty rather than a whole lot of flag waving. I think it's great for India and Pakistan that they have a resource that is working for them -- their people. I think it's great that thousands of people are rising above the poverty line! I want global economic improvement just as much as the next guy and possibly even more. But I don't think it requires that the U.S. economy suffers in order to improve another part of the world.
In fact, I'd go so far as to suggest that any benefit that requires the failure of the U.S. economy would do so much more to harm the global economy that any improvement to other parts of the world wouldn't be enough to balance it all out and we'd be looking at a global economic crisis.
To illustrate my point, look at what happened to the entire Asian economy when Japan was going through its banking crisis. When the economic super-power that is Japan was suffering, it threatened not only to reduce it to ruins but to take all of asia down with it.
Consider that the U.S. currently holds the largest international consumer base in teh world. We buy stuff from EVERYWHERE
So not only are we taking U.S. dollars all but completely out of U.S. circulation in the U.S. never to return (because who BUYS anything from the U.S.? We're in a trade deficit with almost every nation we trade with!) buy buying labor overseas, but we're losing jobs in the U.S. which results in decreased buying power of our consumers!
This is no longer merely a threat of trading off our manufacturing and buying more from overseas, but this is a situation that has the potential of destroying our consumer base which would ultimately crash the world economy as far as countries supplying manufactured goods to the U.S.
Everyone seems to assume that US-based corporations will always have the upper hand in deciding how to control the job market, i.e. the jobs may move but the owners remain American. I don't agree.
I believe that eventually the large American firms will run out of US dollars to pay for jobs after we reach double-digit unemployment and the US-dollar-paying customer base is unable to continue purchasing what are essentially "luxury" goods.
Do the Indian companies share my belief? If not, why not? If so, are they making any plans to survive the permanent collapse of the American firms?
Further, the call center workers use pseudonyms only because of the insular, cretinous American customers they service who think everyone should be named Bill, Harry or Jack
Hi, I am Indian and it seems some people are interested to know about the caste system in India. I will provide some information and comparison to give you a good idea.
These are the facts:
1. Does caste system exists in India?
-Yes. But these days its probably more of an economic class system than caste system. There are rich, middle class and poor. This is the modern day caste system of India! And its no diffferent from what you have in US.
2. Are lower castes discriminated against?
-Yes ocassionally. Discrimination exists in every society and we judge a society based on their ability and intention to stop it. In that way, India and US is no different.
3. How does India deal with the problem?
- There are laws against caste discrimination. Besides India invented and implemented the strongest affirmative action program in the world. It was actually done before the time (1947)when lynching was a fair practice in American south. The affirmative action program is strictly implemented everywhere like higher education, jobs etc. In some states where lower caste population is high the quotas in education and jobs can be as high as 75%!!!
4. Do lower caste people live in ghettoes?
-Sometimes communities are segregated but in urban areas its not that way. There is no Indian equivalent of racially segreated communities in the US. Anyone can live anywhere and you cant tell a persons caste by appearance:)
5. Do lower castes have political power?
-They have enormous political power. India has many state chief ministers (governor) belonging to the lowest caste. India had many lower caste Presidents, Vice-presidents and prime minister too! Lower caste people are the largest voting population and since we are a true democracy, usually the lower caste people have proportionate political representation. We do not have a two-party system. There are hundreds of political parties in India and we need that to properly represent our enormously diverse population. (BTW, right now our president is a Muslim, prime minister a hindu and defense minister a christian! Its not related to caste though)
6. Are lower caste people (dalits) forced to do horrible jobs?
-This is the most common myth perpetrated in the western world. No one is forced to do anything! But, many lower caste people who are also poor tend to do janitorial jobs and other jobs that nobody wants to do. Many lower caste/dalit people in India are also illiterate and lack skills. So, many of them end up taking family profession. But their situations are improving rapidly. Indian govt for the past 55 years has been trying to undo the results of several hundreds of years of discrimination and we are doing it peacefully. We did not have to fight a civil war to eliminate the evils of our society. Its interesting to note that bad jobs are usually taken care of by immigrants and minorities in the US. You might as well call it caste system of the US. (let me know when you see a non-hispanic janitor!)
7. Do lower caste people have equal opportunities in education?
-Yes. There is nothing like school district in India. Anyone can attend any school. So even poor people can share good public schools with rich people. We dont force our poor population to live in bad neighborhoods and poor school districts. Poverty and richness coexist in India and its fairly common to see a slum and a mansion side by side! We dont believe in hiding our poverty in the inner-cities and urban ghettoes and condemn those people to perputal cycle of violence, poverty and lack of education. Actually we show our poverty to everyone else and we are proud the way we are dealing with it...(The Brits left us in 1947 with 90% people living in poverty with a life expectancy of 35 years. In 50 years we managed to cut down the poverty to 25% with life expectancy of 67 years!) There are rich kids going to good private schools. But there are plenty of good public schools for everyone. Most Indians working in IT are not rich people. They are ordinary
But show me where Christians or any other religious followers are blowing themselves up in the name of their faith for the purpose of killing people who presumably aren't of their faith.
Well, certain Christian groups will certainly kill people who they disagree with: see abortion clinic assassinations. From one viewpoint, this is even less respectable than suicide bombers, since you aren't willing to die for your beliefs.
I also don't think the suicide bombers are interested in converting anyone. Their objective is different, and so it doesn't make as much sense to compare it to the evanglistic efforts of Christians.
As well, historically Christians have done some horrible things that were sanctioned, encouraged, or even run by the Church. Of course, that's in the past, but I still have a severe lack of respect for the Catholic Church when they do not seem to regret or apologize for those things, and I would not trust the Church to put my interests ahead of their own.
Back to the evangelistic efforts, I don't think any religious organization has pushed themselves on others are hard as Christians. I don't remember anyone except Christians pretending to be my friend until it was clear I wasn't interested in converting. Or any Buddhist or Muslim religious flyers on my doorstep. Christians also seem to be the only ones telling me I'm going to burn in hell forever. Doesn't seem very nice of them.
Are we as American technical workers shooting ourselves in the foot by helping to train our replacements in American academic institutions?
Are we, as human beings, so selfish that we would rather ensure personal superiority over another through regulation and control rather than hard work?
How are immigrants from America / Europe treated? (With specific regard to race and religion)
Are they met with the same unfair prejudices we treat our immigrants with?
Apart from the language barrier, what are the biggest changes an American would need to make to his/her lifestyle if he were to move to India?
Finally, are there even many immigrants?
-- If you try to fail and succeed, which have you done? - Uli's moose
There is a 11.30-12.30 hour difference between indian and us time zones.I live in Central time[kansas].
My indian friends who chose to work in India instead of Masters degree in USA are not that joyous abt the kinda job they do
At the end of day , they get good bucks.Their complaint is that companies are pushing them to work on an average 10-12 hours per day.Weekends too..One of my friend has work every other weekend.
Sheer compettition in India drove me to USA
Hello , this is my way.
Which way is yours ?
btw there is no right way
OTOH, in India, you have a tolerant and accomodative society with stress on education. Despite the backstabbing and violence, we indians are tolerant of other religious groups and our President is a Muslim.
In this culture, you will find poor Hindu children knocking on doors and begging for money in order to pay for their textbooks. They'll return next year with the previous year's report card.
You will find mothers starving to make sure that the kid gets a decent education. Movies which portray hard work in poor families usually show the protagonist studying late at night with a table lamp. That should tell you how indians view education.
When I went to school, there was only one thing on our minds. Compete with each other, do well and get admission into a brand name institute.
It was sheer bad luck that Jawaharlal Nehru became the first Prime Minister and chose the Stalinist model of economy and pushed us into poverty and desperation. The Nehru family (Nehru, his daughter Indira Gandhi and Indira's son, Rajiv gandhi were also Prime Ministers) is known as India's sorrow. The slow rate of growth due to the Nehruvian-Stalinist model is called Nehruvian Penalty.
Things are changing now with the Communists ejected out of academia and losing in the political arena. They have been reduced to whining from the sidelines abusing those of us who are for peace and free economy as "Hindu fascists" and "Hindu fundamentalists." They will be intellectually defeated.
Of course, this importance for learning has created an environment where Muslims and Christians too feel the peer pressure to succeed in education. So Indian Muslims and Christians are better than their Pakistani counterparts (Pakistan doesn't have Christians as it has killed them off.) Finally, I shouldn't take away credit from Muslim and Christian families. The tradition of giving importance to learning must have been handed down through the generations in their families too as their ancestors too were Hindus at some point of time.
I just noticed that there are a few questions that have kept repeating themselves in this post and previous ones.So i thought i should attempt to answer a few of them being an Indian who works in the outsourcing industry in bombay.
;)
:-) Jokes apart, the whole outsourcing thing is more an internal issue of America than anything else.If you can convince the big American firms to stop Outsourcing theres nothing India or any other country in the world can do about it.They'd outsource blah-kistan if India got erased from the list. $$ is the key issue.
1. Most questions asked here are cultural differences and definitely do NOT belong to LinuxAsia!
2. Are those benefitting from these jobs in India consuming American goods?
Yes they are.Like elsewhere Coke and pepsi is part of the staple diet of most indians above the poverty line.(though i prefer beer).We wear a lot of Nike/Reebok/Levis,even though they are all made in China or thailand etc.Theres a Mcdonalds in most major cities.
3. How does it work with the time difference between the US and India?
We work at nights instead of day.My day typically starts at 1am and ends at 11am.That way we are working during americen working hours.
4. Microsoft Vs Linux
Don't you know everyone the world over hates Microsoft? or you're supposed to?!? In terms of other OS'es Linux is much more popular than any other non-MS OS ie Mac OS,BSD,Solaris etc.
5. Why India?
Why not?
6. Americans in India.
Yes, its a whole LOT easier for an american to get a job in India than it is for an Indian in USA.If its a small firm they won' even look at your passport as long as you can get the work done.Btw we have no minimum wage system,at least not that i know of.
Geeks here n geeks everywhere are the same, we thrive on beer,Quake,010101's and slashdot.Over n out.
Lord of the Binges.
I will take the middle-ground on this issue. I work in I.T., and have seen the market collapse, nonetheless. Uncertainty lies ahead, and we must be willing to conquer these issues as workers, families, and corporations -- but protectionist legislation is not the answer.
I disagree. I am generally not in favor of protectionist policies. But when it comes to outsourcing knowledge jobs, I think we have a different situation on our hands.
This "outsourcing" is also a key source of income for the people and families of India, who also need food, drinking water, healthcare, etc. If we continue to live in excess while the poorest nations are not given a hands-up, this will only lead to further class strife and conflict.
Then let them innovate. No one is stopping them from using their own money to invest in their own businesses that build products to compete in the American market. I am all in favor of honest competition. What is happening is *not* competition. It is an economic hemmorage that will eventually eliminate our middle class, if allowed to continue.
We are in the process of training knowledge workers in other countries to compete, giving them the foundation technology to do it and paying them for that favor while unplugging some of the hardest-working, most competent individuals in the United States from any hope of making a decent living in their field. Another side-effect is that it does not help steer American students into Science and Engineering to hear that they cannot get jobs, or cannot get a decent paying job, yet they have to make it through academics that are significantly more difficult than any other field of study.
What's next? No more scientists in America? After all, it would be cheaper to outsource basic scientific research to China.
Do you want to live in *that* United States?
Make no mistake about it, this is a threat to America and the most important role of a government is to protect itself against threats. Every high-paying knowledge job that is exported represents a significant tax-income loss for the government. Perhaps, besides examining tarrifs, the government should examine tax cuts or waivers for those sectors that have been the hardest hit. If technology professionals could pay 10% taxes instead of 45% taxes, companies could employ them cheaper, at least until a long-term solution to outsourcing is worked out. It would be better for everyone if the government collected a lower tax for a while, keeping more jobs in the U.S. and lowering the long-term threat to America's competitiveness (both because of educational choices of young Americans and third-world technology corridors that become super-charged through outsource funding).
The reason that it can be true that 1+1 > 2 is that very peculiar nonzero value of the + operator
You know, I'm one of those many IT people in the U.S. affected by the economic downturn and also probably by outsourcing. However, I just recently thought about it and have come to the conclusion that it's not a bad thing. Change is good. I like buying cheap products. If getting cheap IT workers means cheaper products, I'm all for it. I know that in the short term it means that my skills are worthless in this market, but that's just because I chose to paint myself into a corner and didn't diversify my skill set so I'd be ready when this eventually happened. This has happened with hardware in the past which is why I can get so much more bang for my PC-buying buck. America has been good at leading the technological way. If that's our niche, it's going to be tough but I and all those in the same boat as me will have to position ourselves in such a way as to be flexible enough to handle it. It's either that, or go communist. :-)
There's a world of difference between the Kami Kaze suicide fighters of WW2 who gave their lives against military targets and ones who simply bomb anyone who is opposed to their beliefs (whether they be women, children or even bystanders who even share the beliefs of the bomber).
...suicide bombers clearly don't value life as much as others and even seem eager to blow themselves up.
That is highly debatable. When you have little chance of hurting your opponent and surviving it, you might as well choose a suicide attack. When even that doesn't work against the military, why not attack the civilian population? It makes perfect sense if you are desperately struggling against an oppressor. Japan simply never had that option since they could never target the US mainland (or at least not later in the war). We do know that Japan had extremely little respect for human lives at that time, they killed millions of forced laborers by working them to death*. I don't think they would have had any moral hesitations about killing US civilians.
*http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/SOD.CHAP3.HTM
Did any of those Kami Kaze pilots look forward to their own demise?
They did what they were told (for the most part). You mustn't forget that Japanese people do not tend to be individualists. Honor and the well-being of the group to whome they belong is very important. Schoolkids learn about the samurai who avenged their master's death and then committed (honorable) suicide. Furthermore, suicide is quite common in Japan. In the US, people are much more likely to strike at other when they feel at the end of their rope (Columbine & many other shootings by disgruntled people), in Japan people kill themselves in similar situations.
This also relates directly to your next point:
This is more of a cultural issue. The US Rangers have got the motto "leave no man behind". This means that they will risk their lives to get everyone, even dead bodies, back home. You can make the point that this also means that those soldiers don't value life. Why else would they risk the group for one individual, even worse, one who cannot be saved.
Do you understand that this is totally foreign to people from a culture in which the collective is very important?
As for history, it is commonly held that the Muslim religion is still in its "dark age" period while it is concurrently recognized that Christianity has long since emerged from its dark ages.
The allies attacked 'almost completely random civilian targets' when they believed that air raids on military targets were unsuccessful. Is that enlightened? And how civilized was the use of the atomic bomb to attack two cities filled with civilians? Then I haven't started yet on crimes committed by the nazi's.
It's hard to argue that Christians are any more civilized from a military perspective.
Your last paragraph refers to my original question of whether it would be better to believe that others are going to hell and doing nothing about it or having that same belief and doing something about it. Just because a person doesn't tell you that you're going to burn in hell doesn't mean they don't believe it. How on earth is that nicer than trying to save you?
I'm afraid that people will try to save me/civilization/the world/whatever by hurting other people. It has happened so many times in the past that beliefs and ideologies have led people to commit the most horrendous crimes. I'd rather have those people appreciate that others might differ in opinion and do not want to be forcibly 'saved' (or sacrificed).
Behaving unethically based on your belief/ideology is very dangerous. One can easily slide into extremism this way.
-- The road to hell is paved with good intentions.
What's the male-to-female ratio in the professional centers in India?
If I worked or visited India, as an American geek would my chances of going out with a hot Indian girl be any greater than my current (slim) chances of going out with a hot American girl? As Valentine's Day approaches in the US, inquiring minds want to know.
s far as I understand, joining the US tends to be one-sided proposals by fringe politicians, and has almost no mainstream support. The US is also unlikely to accept a new state of nearly 85 million people with a per capita GDP of under $5,000. The US itself is only some 300 million people, with a GDP more than $36,000. Absorbing the Philippines and bringing it to the economic levels of other states will cripple the US economy for decades.
Actually, examine the link I posted about statehood. It tends to be the politicians (rather than the people) in the Philippines that oppose statehood because it poses a threat to their wealth and power.
There is a growing awareness of the coming economic competitiveness of China and India in the U.S, and a particular school of thought that believes that we should align ourselves closely with a country such as the Philippines in order to challenge the cheap labor of India/China. In this scenario, the 80 million Filipinos working for peanuts works greatly in our favor. Done correctly, the transformation of the Philippines into a state will coincide with the use of the Philippines as a weapon in this economic war that is coming with China and India. The end result is that the standard of living, GDP and infrastructure of the Philippines is tremendously raised while the U.S. gets it ready to be a state *and* fends off economic disaster at the hands of the Chinese and Indians.
In the long term, in order for the U.S. to stay competitive with countries like China and India, we need to greatly increase our population. This also helps us achieve that. It also gives us an extremely strategic presence in the region.
It seems like a smart idea to me.
The reason that it can be true that 1+1 > 2 is that very peculiar nonzero value of the + operator
It's primarily a problem of confidence and protection. With the U.S. protecting the Philippines (both economically and militarily), U.S. companies (not to mention foreign intrests) would take a much greater interest in the region.
Since the track is to make the Philippines into a state, the idea is to shift relationships and labor usage from unaffilated third-world countries into the Philippines. A larger workforce creates a larger economy and vastly increases the overall wealth and prosperity of the whole if done correctly. The amount of money that would be spent in the Philippines building infrastructure (mostly contracted out to U.S. firms) would more then compensate for the shift of cheap labor to the Philippines. But the economics is more complex than just that. The key is simbiosis and intention to merger. Doing the same thing with a foreign country without that intention would be devestating economically.
It is not necessary for politicians to think 20 years ahead. Today, U.S. politicians have very serious problems on their hands because of outsourcing of U.S. jobs (a trend that will grow larger) to third-world countries. if they could re-route that effort to the Philippines while laying claim to be doing it to help establish an economy for the 51st state somewhere down the road, it provides them with a political shield against the masses while simultaneously appeasing big business.
It certainly would be necessary to plan somewhat, but the think-tanks that build diplomatic agreements will do that regardless. The important point is that there are advantages TODAY, TOMORROW and in the distant future to going down this path.
They would not yet be part of the U.S. and it would not be discrimination. It would be a gradual increase in standard of living, synchronized to the upgrades to industry and infrastructure. As I mentioned before, the federal assistance would be staged in such a way that by the time they are ready to be a state, the required assistance would not be a burden. Never would we worsen their conditions, we would always be improving them. We just couldn't do it all at once because, as you correctly pointed out, it would be devestating economically for the U.S. to do that.
The U.S. : Protestant 56%, Roman Catholic 28%, Jewish 2%, other 4%, none 10% (1989)
Primarily Christian - yes, there are twice as many Protestant as Catholic. But in the U.S., this is not an issue like it is in Brittain. We have even had a Catholic president (Kennedy).
You could even say this works to the advantage of the Philipp
The reason that it can be true that 1+1 > 2 is that very peculiar nonzero value of the + operator
I did not make myself clear. Despite massive investments into China and India, the very poor are not seeing the money trickle down to them, so all the attention from capitalists isn't benefiting the poor. This makes perfect sense, because capitalists are not terribly concerned about poverty.
If you look at Iraq as an example, you'll note that private companies are not rushing into Iraq to help build roads and bridges. They are contracted by the US government to build roads and bridges, using US taxpayer money.
This investment in infrastructure may eventually lead to real private investments, and may eventually lead to an improvement of overall living standards. For the most part, however, what we're seeing all over the world is a relatively small class of direct beneficiaries (i.e., the Indian software engineer), rather than improvements across the board. The process you are hoping for is neither cheap nor simple!
More importantly, we're talking about a significant up-front public investment before the country would be more interesting (than it is today) to private investments. That up-front money is almost certainly going to be tax money.
The U.S. : Protestant 56%, Roman Catholic 28%, Jewish 2%, other 4%, none 10% (1989) [...] But in the U.S., this is not an issue like it is in Brittain.
I think you are naive to discount the political resistance that a large homogenous infusion of additional voters will invite. The Christian Right may not mind a whole lot, but consider what a pro-choice organization would have to think. Remember, this is a country that bans divorce, so it's entirely likely that controversial issues will be decisively put to rest by this new voting bloc. I simply don't think you've considered the impact of a third more eligible voters to the political establishment, with the power to put an entire political party out of business for decades at least.
They no longer have our bases in operation there and they are most certainly not under our economic protection.
The Philippines is under essentially the same umbrella that other NATO countries are. It has no real external security concerns, and Americans are already helping the Philippines deal with a chronic Muslim insurgency.
Now, I'm not saying what you propose isn't possible. The US is a large and rich country, and is technically able to absorb a smaller poor country the way West Germany absorbed East Germany. However, I am saying that this isn't viable, because of the size of the problems confronting the Philippines, and because there's no real US political will to push through with this. The Filipino elite, contrary to your suggestions, would not be losers in this proposition. Their land will not be taken away and given to the poor.
Finally, assuming your dream scenario does occur, and the Philippines is built up and the rest of the US takes advantage of its cheaper labor for a couple of decades. You will then face the same problem again: the cost of doing business in the Philippines will become comparable to elsewhere in the US. The jobs will be outsourced again. What country will you merge with then?
Furthermore, as with all major decisions, you also need to consider the cases when things don't go your way. What if you fail to raise the living standards in the Philippines? You now have 80 million more mouths to feed, with a government already in deficit spending and a social security system on the brink of collapse.