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Wolfram's New Kind of Science Now Online

gotscheme writes "When Stephen Wolfram of Mathematica fame self-published A New Kind of Science in 2002, he raised the suspicions of many in scientific communities that he was taking advantage of a lot of other people's work for his sole financial gain and that he was going against the open nature of academia by using restrictive copyright. Yesterday, Wolfram and company released the entire contents of NKS for free on the Web (short registration required). Perhaps Wolfram is giving back to the scientific community; perhaps it is simply clever marketing for a framework that is beginning to gain momentum. For any matter, the entire encyclopedic volume is online, and this appears to be a positive step for scientific writing."

111 of 480 comments (clear)

  1. New Kind of Hype? by corebreech · · Score: 3, Troll

    The idea that the universe is the product of the combinatorial effects of different combinations of events seems neither unique nor unexpected.

    I know this will probably be modded as a troll, but could it be that NKS is nothing more than a computer-science primer for physicists?

    1. Re:New Kind of Hype? by gowen · · Score: 5, Interesting
      idea that the universe is the product of the combinatorial effects
      Penrose's spinor group has been working on similar foundations for 30 years, and they've actually produced some interesting results, with applications in Superstrings and quantum gravity. By comparison, Wolfram is just a bored dilletante scribbling on the back of an envelope.
      --
      Athletic Scholarships to universities make as much sense as academic scholarships to sports teams.
    2. Re:New Kind of Hype? by tgibbs · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The idea that the universe is the product of the combinatorial effects of different combinations of events seems neither unique nor unexpected.

      Pretty much any idea, if expressed sufficiently broadly and vaguely, will seem "neither unique nor unexpected."

    3. Re:New Kind of Hype? by LnxAddct · · Score: 5, Insightful

      By comparison, Wolfram is just a bored dilletante scribbling on the back of an envelope.

      And you the mighty gowen have contributed so much to society. Wolfram is indeed a genius.He is up there with the likes of Stephen Hawking, just in a different field. He did build some of his work off of other people's, but that is what science is. Modern Physics was built off of Newton's work which was then in turn added to by others until it has reached its amazing point in this day and age where we can send a small robot to a crater on a planet millions of miles away. Quantum Mechanics is also commonly contributed to Albert Einstein who's work was then contributed to by others. But before Einstein there was Max Planck. The reason the human race has progressed as such is because we learn from our predecessors and build on that knowledge. Yes Wolfram used a lot of work based on others (and he cites it all), but he has also studied Cellular Automata for somewhere between 12 to 20 years.The guy is smart and I've read this entire book cover to cover and have referenced it several times. He makes insights into the field that no one has ever mentioned before. And after hearing him speak at one of his conferences in New York I have the upmost respect for him and his brilliance. If you still don't believe me, read the book, or just go to his website and browse it. Even better, try to duplicate Mathematica and see how far you get.I'm not trying to start a flame or anythign like that, but unless you are really familar with this guy then you can't really comment. I've followed his works for at least 5 years now.
      Regards,
      Steve
      P.S. Another guy worth checking out who is affiliated with Wolfram is Eric Weisstein who has a great website and sells an encyclopedia for mathematics, which I also own and couldn't live without :)

    4. Re:New Kind of Hype? by dasmegabyte · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Actually, that's not what he's saying at all. In fact, I'm not sure you're saying anything at all. "Combinatorial effects of different combinations?" Somebody's been using the Pseudoscientific Bullshit generator.

      You're still more succinct than Wolfram, who over the course of these 600 pages reiterates his position several thousand times without ever really stating what it is he's claiming. It's damned annoying, considering I spent $45 to get thusly annoyed.

      Here's what I got from Wolfram's book. Anything around you that seems completely random, impossible to generate, isn't necessarily so. There are patterns in the randomness which are the result of the interaction between the intracicies of the process and the data, ones that act one each other regarless of the starting form. And the end result of that, is that complex ordered forms are to be expected even when performing very simple comparisons.

      I know, you've heard all this before. You assumed everybody agreed with it. What Wolfram's done is give a "pep talk" to people trying to perform complicated models that they should step back and see if they can't get their model to create itself by simplifying the rules. That's the "new kind of science"...boiling complex multivariable equations down to the processes that generated them.

      If anything, AKOS is a computer-science primer for everybody BUT physcists. There's a chapter on applications of it (chapter 8 i think). It's the most useful one in the book.

      --
      Hey freaks: now you're ju
    5. Re:New Kind of Hype? by kurosawdust · · Score: 3, Funny

      That's one gigantic goddamn envelope.

    6. Re:New Kind of Hype? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Yes Wolfram used a lot of work based on others (and he cites it all)

      and:

      In the 1990's Matthew Cook served as a research assistant to Stephen Wolfram , where among other things he was directed to develop a proof showing that the Rule 110 cellular automaton is Turing-complete . Under non-disclosure until the publication of Stephen Wolfram's A New Kind of Science, Cook nevertheless presented his proof at a Santa Fe Institute conference. Subsequently, it was stricken from the published proceedings by court order. Rule 110 is an extremely simple system, and the fact that it is Turing-complete is remarkable. While some view the proof as the book's central contribution, it is notable that in the years between Cook's presentation and the book's final publication, no subsequent follow-on work was done by those who had seen or heard of the proof-likely because its significance was not clear outside of the intellectual structure for which it was developed.

      (from wikipedia:Matthew_Cook)

    7. Re:New Kind of Hype? by Thomas+Miconi · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Penrose's spinor group has been working on similar foundations for 30 years, and they've actually produced some interesting results

      The important part in Wolfram's work (and more importantly in the ohter people's works that were inspired by Wolfram) is quite different. It's not really "applicable" in the way you mention - the annoying side of Wolfram's book is precisely that he tries to apply it to just about anything, including fundamental physics.

      Another annoying side is mentioning lot of works by other people without acknowledging them, except in the small-print notes that make up more than 50% of the book's contents. Yet another annoying side is the embarassing passage on evolution - even a reckless creationist (which Wolfram isn't) would be ashamed of coming up with such a laughable piece of bad reasoning. Go check if you don't believe me.

      See my comment below for why Wolfram's ideas are actually cool, even though Wolfram himself isn't.

      Thomas Miconi

    8. Re:New Kind of Hype? by __past__ · · Score: 5, Funny

      So, it's weasels all the way down?

    9. Re:New Kind of Hype? by DanoTime · · Score: 2, Interesting

      a bored dilletante scribbling on the back of an envelope.
      Yea, scribbling on the back of 1192 envelopes. I bought the book and it was quite hefty, but tied together all of these ideas in a (over) descriptive manner. I enjoyed it.

    10. Re:New Kind of Hype? by elmegil · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Nobody (sane) questions Wolfram's intelligence, however that doesn't mean that NKS is really as groundbreaking as he claims it is. I bought a copy, found it thick, heavy, dense, in turns fascinating and confusing, but damn if I can see anything in it that justifies Wolfram's claims of "new science". One can be utterly brilliant and still overly arrogant and in some cases even wrong. In fact, I question any "genius" who is unable to notice when s/he's wrong. Whether Wolfram falls in that category is yet to be seen.

      --
      7 November 2006: The day Americans realized corruption and incompetence weren't addressing 11 September 2001
    11. Re:New Kind of Hype? by Hentai · · Score: 3, Interesting

      The important part in Wolfram's work (and more importantly in the ohter people's works that were inspired by Wolfram) is quite different. It's not really "applicable" in the way you mention - the annoying side of Wolfram's book is precisely that he tries to apply it to just about anything, including fundamental physics.

      As an armchair chaos mathematician, I find it annoying the one thing he DIDN'T try to apply it to: Chaos mathematics itself.

      Think about it. He's got this neat way of mapping the generative rules of cellular automata into numbers, right? He can verify the Turing-completeness of each and every one of these automata. Are there patterns? Are there mathematical rules that can be derived, that say something like "Any automata mapped in such-and-such a way from the sum of two Mersenne primes will be Turing Complete", or even some bizzare formula that returns the Turing Completeness of any cellular automata generated by a number N.

      Then look at THAT set of patterns, and see what 'rules' (which obviously themselves must be Turing complete) might generate THAT.

      And down the rabbit-hole we go. Maybe Wolfram and Hopfstaedter should sit down for tea sometime.

      --
      -Hentai [in vita non pacem est]
    12. Re:New Kind of Hype? by drooling-dog · · Score: 3, Insightful
      Wolfram is indeed a genius.He is up there with the likes of Stephen Hawking, just in a different field.

      That's probably true by his own estimation. I'm surprised that you say you read the book. I did too, and while there are a few interesting things in there, for the most part it's a lot of chest thumping and self-promotion. He continually trumpets how "simple programs" - i.e., cellular automata - will surely explain all of the mysteries of the universe and that therefore he is the second coming of Isaac Newton. Fair enough; on an intuitive level I can see how this might be so, and I eagerly plowed through the book waiting for some solutions to physical problems that would illustrate his thesis. Nothing of the sort was to be found. All we get is, "Looky here! More pretty patterns from my simple rules!" It was as if Newton, instead of developing the Calculus and actually applying it to physical problems, had just waved his arms and said, "Surely there are mathematical equations that govern the Universe!" and left it at that. Now that's an important insight, but if that's all he did we probably wouldn't even know his name.

      While I don't doubt Wolfram's contribution to CA and discrete mathematics, he's trying to join a club for which he hasn't (yet) paid his dues.

      Quantum Mechanics is also commonly contributed to Albert Einstein

      You're not a physicist, are you? That's just not true. Einstein resisted the ideas behind quantum mechanics for a long time; he couldn't accept that "God plays dice with the Universe". I'm not sure that he ever really accepted it.

    13. Re:New Kind of Hype? by 11223 · · Score: 2, Informative

      Perhaps you ought to take the time to read GEB again. There is much more in those short dialogues than meets the eye. It takes some time to figure it all out though.

    14. Re:New Kind of Hype? by harlows_monkeys · · Score: 2, Informative
      Wolfram is indeed a genius.He is up there with the likes of Stephen Hawking, just in a different field

      In a different field now, but much of his pre-Mathematica work was in cosmology. A bunch more was in particle physics. From 1975 to 1983, Wolfram published a LOT of papers on those subjects.

      His diversion into mathematical software came about because the existing systems could not handle the scale of problems he was working on, and so he and Chris Cole developed SMP ("Symbolic Mathematics Program").

      Wolfram's willingness to go his own way, despite the conventional wisdom, can be seem in the development of SMP. Wolfram and Cole checked with the experts before starting SMP, and were told that such a system had to be written in LISP. C was not suited to that kind of programming, and if they tried it, they would fail. Wolfram and Cole realized that this was bullshit, wrote in C, and SMP completely blew away all the other symbolic mathematics programs of the day.

    15. Re:New Kind of Hype? by Zeinfeld · · Score: 4, Insightful
      In the 1990's Matthew Cook served as a research assistant to Stephen Wolfram , where among other things he was directed to develop a proof showing that the Rule 110 cellular automaton is Turing-complete . Under non-disclosure until the publication of Stephen Wolfram's A New Kind of Science, Cook nevertheless presented his proof at a Santa Fe Institute conference.

      I have worked in several of the labs where Steve has worked. Does not play well with others is a common conclusion.

      The big problem with Steve's book is that he is simply unable to see that a large part of what he is proposing is simply stating existing ideas in a different notation.

      Einstein surrounded himself by people who he considered his intellectual peers, people like Kurt Goedel. Steve shut himself up in a room for ten years and basically talked only to the people he felt like. He surrounded himself with a bunch of sycophants in the manner of a pop star - we have all seen what that has done to Michael Jackson. I decided not to read the book after I heard the gushing haigographies given by his employees.

      It is not surprising that the book got the reception it did. When I heard Steve talking about it I kept thinking 'hammer, nail'. Steve has been working on finite state automata for years. But the standard model of physics today has at its core an idea that is pretty close to being a collection of finite state machines. It is already known that you can simulate one with the other.

      I think that the problem that Steve has created here is that the manner of his presentation closely resembles that of a crank. I get letters from cranks calling themselves the new Einstein and Adam Smith combined, actually everyone who has been published in the letters section of the London Times does.

      Steve is incredibly bright, but unfortunately no intelligence in history could match his ego, and his does not either.

      --
      Looking for an Information Security student project suggestion?
      Try http://dotcrimeManifesto.com/
    16. Re:New Kind of Hype? by egoots · · Score: 3, Informative

      Yes Wolfram used a lot of work based on others (and he cites it all), but he has also studied Cellular Automata for somewhere between 12 to 20 years.

      There are others who disagree with this to a certain degree. The following quote is from a review of the book published in Science Magazine, by Dr. Melanie Mitchell, a well known researcher and author in the field.

      She writes: "In fact, most of what Wolfram describes is the work of many people (including himself), and most of it was done at least ten to twenty years ago. Nearly no credits to the contributions of others appear in the book's main text. Some credits can be found in the long notes section at the book's end, but many are not given at all. For example, the snowflake models Wolfram discusses are based on the work of Packard (13), but Packard is not mentioned in connection with them. This is only one example of such inexcusable omissions. Moreover, the book does not contain a single bibliographic citation--an astounding lapse that will put off serious scientific readers. Wolfram's Web site (14) includes "relevant books," but this list is no substitute."

    17. Re:New Kind of Hype? by LionMage · · Score: 5, Interesting
      Yes Wolfram used a lot of work based on others (and he cites it all)

      Evidently he does not, for many have accused Dr. Wolfram of plagiarism. Personally, I find his citations inadequate. He doesn't give nearly enough credit to Edward Fredkin or Tommaso Toffoli or any of the other key researchers in Cellular Automata who advanced the idea that the universe is a giant computational process long before this book was ever published.

      Wolfram claims to have originated this idea, and he seems hell-bent on taking the credit away from others, to the point that he's put some rather onerous copyright restrictions on his NKS book and website. This is academically dishonest, to say the least.

      That he fucked over his own research assistant, Matthew Cook, is a crime against the advancement of math and science. (Check the Wikipedia article on Matthew Cook. It's enlightening.)

      I myself did some work with using Cellular Automata to model physical systems -- my bachelor's thesis (submitted in 1992 to the MIT Physics Department) concentrated on modeling gas diffusion using a one-dimensional CA, and comparing the results against statistical physics theory. Wolfram came late to the party, claims ownership of ideas that rightfully don't belong to any one person (and which he definitely did not originate), and killed a lot of trees to disseminate relatively little new information (the proof that a specific CA is Turing complete, furnished by his research assistant, being the primary noteworthy item). Save yourself the money and the 1200+ pages and read the source material. It's more enlightening.
    18. Re:New Kind of Hype? by qcomp · · Score: 2, Interesting
      Is Penrose still blathering about how human minds are somehow magically transcendant due to quantum bogodynamic handwaving, and therefore not subject to any form of simulation?

      Actually, in his second book (Shadows of the Mind) he (as far as I can tell) claims to prove that the human mind does things a universal Turing machine cannot and must therefore be based on different physics. Please correct me if I remember this wrong.

      While I do not buy Penrose's argument, it is also not entirely clear to me, where it fails. The gist seemed to be: "In any formal system of logic there are statements that can be proven to be undecidable; however, we can see that they must be true, since if they were not, there would be a counterexample, which would make them decidable. Hence human reasoning is different from just following formal logic (which is what, supposedly, a computer following the laws of classical or quantum mechanics would do). Consequently the human brain must follow different laws - and quantum gravity seemed to be the [only|obvious] place left to look for them.

      I really just couldn't hold any respect for him after reading The Emperor's New Mind, which is too bad since it's one of those "tour de force" books ala hofstadter
      I think it is a great book, even though I disagree with his point on AI.

      I don't think he should lose respect because of the ideas he has put forward, especially since he now tries to think up experiments on how to test his hypothesis.

      I do enjoy those laymans science books. Any you might recommend?
      I enjoyed reading Deutsch "The Fabric of Reality" (although it is in places very speculative and I do not agree with several points) and Greene "The Elegant Universe" (cf. also the BBC tv series).

    19. Re:New Kind of Hype? by abigor · · Score: 2, Informative

      Give GEB another try. Those "wordgames" are an entertaining way to describe and demonstrate some very deep things - paradoxes, recursion, and Godel's theorems.

  2. Nothing to see here by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The work is almost completely without merit -- a Godel, Escher, Bach for idiots.

    Wolfram doesn't care, he's made a nice pile from it, generated some nice PR for himself; refused all peer review; got a bunch of sycophantic reviews -- largely from non-scientists -- took his short term profit, then bailed.

    If he was poor, he'd've been dismissed as a kook, but the rich can lay on some nice junkets, so they get treated as genius, even when their ideas are rotten.

    Move along.

    1. Re:Nothing to see here by ajs · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Here's my concern. I HAVE read the book. Not cover-to-cover, but a good deal of it, and I have to say that it's pie-in-the-sky stuff. Still, what I see people doing is jumping on this guy and saying that he's a kook, asshole, and various other derogitory words without a single shred of substantive argument against his points!

      Yes: he is arguing that, at a very high level, current scientific approaches to large systems are flawed. I understand that that's off-putting to many, but you can't expect such a broad change in perspective to be done a) from the bottom-up nor b) without substantial leaning on the research of others. It's a theory, and a big one at that, so you accept that it's there and you don't base any substantial work or other theory on it until it is beaten on a bit. All I see in these responses is An Old Kind of Science that has been practiced by entrenched organizations like churches for thousands of years.

      This kind of knee-jerk ostricization of bright people with ideas is just plain wrong. Maybe he's wrong about the idea, but you don't smack a guy down just for writing his ideas down, you correct where wrong if you want to be helpful or ignore if you don't. Being rude just isn't called for.

      He claims no where in the book that I could find that others had not also covered much of this ground, but I don't think it's at all fair to say that that makes this book wholely unoriginal or at all ignorable. After all, he's relying on a body of mathematics that has been carved out over the last 3000 years! I also don't think that it's fair to say that ideas that he shares in common with others were not his. He's a bright enough guy that I think it's quite possible that in 10 years of cloistering himself off and working on this, he re-invented a few wheels. So what? That should neither diminish him nor those who covered the same ground before or in parallel with him (I don't think any less of Liebnitz, even though I'm not sure how to spell his name ;-)

      Let's all just calm down, take a deep breath and try not to be the Church of Established Science for a moment.

    2. Re:Nothing to see here by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      He's doing cellular automata, for heaven's sake! Those of us over 15 have been doing these things since before you kiddies were born! How much more Church of Established Science could Wolfram be!?

      The point is that all Wolfram has done is say "look, cellular automata are cool and they can model complex stuff". We knew that. We knew it 30 years ago. The reason people hate him is that he's utterly convinced that he's a genius, so he arrogates this title of "A New Kind Of Science" to his incredibly old kind of science. Also, he doesn't actually produce any useful results (there's some vague handwavy wibble about modelling a growing leaf with a CA - gee, d'ya think a CELLular automata might be a model of a leaf?), so his New Kind Of Science is all Kinds of useless. Get some experimental results in and come back.

    3. Re:Nothing to see here by mrgeometry · · Score: 2, Insightful

      He claims no where in the book that I could find that others had not also covered much of this ground

      It's not enough to be silent on the question of whether others have already covered the ground. A respectable writer has to devote serious effort to documenting previous writings on the subject. It's not even enough to say "this has been done"; you have to say by whom, when, in what journal...

      Bibliographies serve an essential and fundamental purpose. They are not just there to make typesetting difficult! :-) So, if Wolfram "doesn't claim no-one has done it before", that's short of actually admitting others have done it (or related things) before, which in turn is still short of saying THESE people have done THESE things in THESE papers.

      Serious scientific books and papers list everything that's even **related** (well, closely related) to the topic at hand. The burden is on the author, not the reader, to indicate how much of the material is new.

      zach

    4. Re:Nothing to see here by elusus · · Score: 3, Interesting

      The entire first chapter is spent distancing Wolfram's theory from all the fields that gave rise to that theory. His thesis requires that his ideas be new, hence A New Kind of Science. Something is certainly un-aesthetic about having to justify exactly why a particular revolutionary idea is new. Normally, as with dramatic scientific discoveries of the past, the revolutionary aspect to the idea is self-evident. With NKS, it is certainly not. That is cause for concern.

      Nobody should claim that Wolfram is not a genius. Egotistical yes. Idiot no. A valid point can be made that he is stepping outside the domain of his genius with NKS. His thesis is essentially a philosophical thesis, and I think his approach leaves entirely open whether the philosophical aspects of his thesis are in any way correct.

      For example, the principle of computability is certainly not new. I came across it in Emperor's New Mind. But as a philosophical assertion, I fail to see how it is a priori correct. Wolfram's further developments in NKS focus on the building on an assumption, that while interesting to think about, certainly does not seem sturdy enough to drastically alter science as a whole. That, I think, has more to do with Wolfram's ego than his scientific credibility.

      Further, what Wolfram develops through his explorations of emergence is so general that I find it difficult to believe that any results derived from this approach would be appreciable in any human terms. I am not a physicist, but I image working in abstract physics requires some ability to internalize the meaning behind the predictive equations that govern modern thinking on physics. Where are the predictive equations in NKS? What can be internalized or understood? How can Wolfram's theory be used to create new theories?

      Instead, I think the approach yields a sort of theory of everything through linguistic trickery. Wolfram's model is so general as to be useless, akin to saying here is a theory of everything, the only catch being to use the theory you have to know everything.

  3. Enjoy reading his stuff by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

    If I recall correctly, he published his first scientific paper at the age of 15, and had received his Ph.D. in theoretical physics from Caltech by the age of 20.

    Not too bad.

    1. Re:Enjoy reading his stuff by mariox19 · · Score: 5, Informative

      And if I recall correctly, he received his Ph.D. without ever attending any classes, because the quality of his frequent papers was so high that Caltech risked embarrassment that another university might snap him up and grant him a Ph.D. first.

      Whatever this "new kind of science" turns out to be, the guy is an indisputable example of rare genius.

      --

      quiquid id est, timeo puellas et oscula dantes.

    2. Re:Enjoy reading his stuff by lars_stefan_axelsson · · Score: 3, Insightful
      The point of a PhD is original research, not taking classes.

      While that's true the way it's written, I'd say: To do research is a necessary, but not sufficient requirement. A PhD is about gaining expertise in a field of science, and advance the knowledge of that field by doing research (and publishing it, or at least have it publically scrutinised). To prove the 'expertise' part (but not necessarily atain it) you're usually required to take classes.

      Note that there's in general no way to skip the first point, by being clever. It takes work even if you're the brightest SOB to be walking around today. The world is full of smartarses of all levels of intelligence that know only of their own ideas, without as much as a clue about anybody elses, past or present.

      In my humble opinion, the first part is really the tricky part these days, with so much being published. Staying abrest of your field, so that you can correctly value the judgements of your contributions to the field (or your ideas before they become contributions) is a bit of a chore, and it's easy (too easy in fact) to miss that vital piece of information that puts your work in a whole new light (such as "that's been done before").

      --
      Stefan Axelsson
  4. Or perhaps... by ObviousGuy · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Or perhaps the book itself was too expensive for any sane person to plop down the money to purchase it.

    ANKOS is not a groundbreaking book, and it's conclusions (that all creation is fundamentally programmed into it) is specious. He is adamant that there is no God which created everything, yet he points to artificial order which could only be created by an intelligent designer.

    He totally discounts the view that these patterns are the result of accepted scientific theories like evolution and geology and says that evolution and geology are directed by the patterns. It's a completely inside-out view of the universe and despite its obvious attraction for pseudo-intellectual navel gazers, the book and its contents are neither anything new nor anything that could be construed as vaguely scientfic.

    --
    I have been pwned because my /. password was too easy to guess.
    1. Re:Or perhaps... by websaber · · Score: 2, Interesting

      It's a very smart move publishing it on the web. Nobody is going to be able to read 1200 pages online a lot of people will start reading it and get hooked and go out and buy it. People that need refrences can just get it on the web.

      --
      "A good friend will bail you out of jail. A true friend will be sitting next to you saying, 'damn....that was fun!'"
    2. Re:Or perhaps... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Not true.

      Science is, in a nutshell, a clearly defined mapping from reality towards a formal structure.

      In this sense he is doing science.

      Science is the better the simpler the formal structure, compared to the amounts of reality mapped into it.
      Theoretical Physics is arguably furthest along this road.

      Is it good science? From what I've read of it, no. He maps an emergent phenomenon in reality into an emergent phenomenon in a cellular automata.

      However, his CAs provide a wide array of well defined mathematically sound emergent patterns, which have been notoriously elusive. So his approach to match the emergent patterns in mathematics with those in reality does indeed constitute a new kind of science. But it's not good science. And it doesn't show new ways of creating new good science, because there is no understanding involved, no reduction in the structure of reality into simpler formal structures.

      Ultimately we are still at the very beginning with understanding emergent structures, and Wolframs book doesn't push the frontier a lot, but his approach is as valid as any other in this area.

      -Frank

    3. Re:Or perhaps... by russellh · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I completely agree. My impression was that here we had this prodigy guy, PhD at 15 and all. Success in business, as well, creating his company with its well-regarded math tool. Now then: what to do next? Where does a person like that go? Move to the country and take up a hobby? Unlikely. Seems to me that he just wants his place in history badly.

      Christopher Alexander's The Nature of Order is better in every way. Inspiring, humble before his subject, full of actual insights and examples from the real world, and absolutely beautiful.

      --
      must... stay... awake...
    4. Re:Or perhaps... by hoggoth · · Score: 3, Interesting

      > prodigy guy, PhD at 15 and all. Success in business, [...] what to do next?
      > wants his place in history badly

      It's a common thing for geniuses and almost-geniouses to flounder after their 'great moment' and inevitably turn to a "theory of everything".

      Einstein, the highest genius of all, spent the rest of his life looking for a 'theory of everything'.
      Even Edgar Allen Poe, a gifted albeit twisted writer, spend the bulk of his life trying to invent a 'theory of everything' to prove he wasn't just a horror writer.

      Any more examples out there?

      --
      - For the complete works of Shakespeare: cat /dev/random (may take some time)
    5. Re:Or perhaps... by evenprime · · Score: 2, Interesting
      ANKOS is not a groundbreaking book, and it's conclusions (that all creation is fundamentally programmed into it) is specious. He is adamant that there is no God which created everything, yet he points to artificial order which could only be created by an intelligent designer.
      It seems odd that you would expect a book with "science" in the title to promote Intelligent design/creationism. Intelligent design definitely is not a scientific theory. Something cannot become a "theory" unless it has scientific evidence backing it up. Ideas that are "theories" are ones that have stood the test of time even though others have tried to use science to prove them false. Another words, explanations that become "theories" are the ones that have survived a knock-down, drag-out competition between rival ideas.

      "Intelligent design" doesn't make any predictions about the nature of the universe. Because it makes no predictions, it is not falsifiable. Things that are not falsifiable cannot be examined with science, and can never be tested with science. Science books discuss science. "Intelligent design" is not science, and it cannot examined with science, so it doesn't belong in a science book.

      --

      "Weapons should be hardy rather than decorative" - Miyamoto Musashi
      I think that goes for OS's too
    6. Re:Or perhaps... by kindofblue · · Score: 2, Funny

      An intelligent designer surely exists. The iPod proves it, not the universe.

    7. Re:Or perhaps... by line.at.infinity · · Score: 2, Funny

      ...and examples from the real world...

      Heh, reminds me of Good Will Hunting...

  5. Perhaps by BeemanH2O · · Score: 4, Funny

    "Perhaps Wolfram is giving back to the scientific community; perhaps it is simply clever marketing for a framework that is beginning to gain momentum.

    Perhaps he's trying to make himself look like less of an asshole.

  6. Neat marketing ... by fygment · · Score: 4, Insightful

    ... because printing out the book would cost much more than the book itself.

    A forum at the site for peer review would be nice. Then the issues of credit for work and contentious elements of the theory could be debated dynamically and publicly. Of course maybe it exists already. Can't get to the site at the moment.

    --
    "Consensus" in science is _always_ a political construct.
  7. I've seen him talk by Snosty · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I've been to a lecture by Wolfram and it was disappointingly low-level. He touched on many interesting subjects but unfortunately didn't delve deep enough to make the lecture really very worthwhile. All in all it seemed like a marketing gimmic to sell his book and software.

    The only good part about the whole thing was the completely misguided people asking him truly bizarre questions at the end of the lecture. It was really amusing to see him struggle to answer some truly retarded questions.

    1. Re:I've seen him talk by Otter · · Score: 4, Interesting
      I heard him talk, also, but didn't bother to slog through that book. My impression was that, yes, cellular automata can produce things that resemble naturally occurring structures, but he never addressed the issue of whether CA-like mechanisms are actually responsible. It's been recognized for decades (since Turing, at the least) that simple rules can generate complexity, and yet we still get self-promoter after self-promoter showing off some bifurcated graphic and annoucing that he's solved the mystery of life and the universe.

      Incidentally, what's with that "taking advantage of a lot of other people's work for his sole financial gain and that he was going against the open nature of academia by using restrictive copyright"? If he failed to give proper credit (I have no idea if he did or didn't) that's equally wrong regardless of what terms the text is published under. Free distribution isn't a remedy for plagiarism and where on earth did the submitter get the idea that academics don't normally publish under copyright?

      As for his motivation, that's easy. He genuinely thinks he's solved everything and he wants to broadcast it as widely as possible.

    2. Re:I've seen him talk by de+Selby · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I saw a lecture of his streamed over the internet. He started out saying that it would be more of a quick introduction or summary and wouldn't be as in-depth as the book. Well, I've seen the lecture and read the book. While there's a whole lot more text in the book, it didn't seem any more in-depth. The very things I wanted more detail on were brushed off (sometimes with an almost identical phrase from the lecture) in the book.

      Surprisingly, despite his continuous repetition that this is a great revolution, he doesn't do a great job defending that position. Take his writing on fluid flow and the inadequacy of equations. He rehashes the traditional problem, offers the CA take on it, and fails to give us anything of any practical use. If he could compute a solution faster, with more accuracy, or give the solution to an unsolved problem with this technique, that would be great, but he can't.

      Or take his views on biology. He says there could be a small set of genes that are a "leaf generator" and with a few small tweaks, generate all known leaf types. No duh. It isn't the only possible view on it, but its many people's naive theory. Ditto for shells.

      This happens all throughout the book. He finds something surprising that I think most wouldn't. He than shows that it's not surprising from the CA perspective, and he basically stops there. Lameness, I say.

      (If I'm wrong, do your /. duty: call me an idiot and correct me with something intelligent.)

  8. New Kind of What? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    Prof. Eugene Wigner said it best in his evaluation of a Professor giving a talk at Princeton: "Well Sir that talk was certainly New and Interesting, however what was New is not Interesting and what was Interesting was not New." I think that certainly applies to this book.

    1. Re:New Kind of What? by kisak · · Score: 2, Informative
      Wigner probably made a good point (and so are you), but Wigner's quote is not so new and original in itself since it is usually attributed to Samuel Johnson:

      Your manuscript is both good and original, but the part that is good is not original and the part that is original is not good.
      ---Samuel Johnson (1709-1784)
      --

      --- guns don't kill people, people with guns kill people ---

  9. Not Interested by Rick+and+Roll · · Score: 5, Insightful
    Sure, Wolfram may be a very successful entrepeneur, but that does not qualify him as an expert in the field of science or as a writer. The ratings at Amazon.com are very low. I don't think that this book is a big release, I think it is just an experiment.

    He may be a smart guy, but I think he might just be recycling old material and calling it the Next Big Thing (TM). Again, I won't find out unless this book catches on, because most of my book purchases are by word of mouth or by trusted source (sorry, Slashdot, you do not fit into this category), and if it's going to get to me and my small circle of friends and acquiantences, it had better start selling.

    But good luck to the guy. At least he's writing a book, rather than writing all of his prose in Slashdot comments!

  10. Oh yeah... by TerryAtWork · · Score: 3, Insightful


    I remember THAT book. That's the book where Wolfram compares himself to Newton in the first paragraph of the introduction.

    Wolfram is a great math pro, but the only way he could help Newton is to shine his shoes.

    It's like the von Neumann bottleneck, where 10 % of the code is run 90 % of the time. Truth be told, the REAL von Neumann bottleneck is that only 10 % of computer scientists are even 90 % as smart as von Neumann.

    --
    It's Christmas everyday with BitTorrent.
  11. I'm voting for clever marketing by syphax · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Props to Wolfram for this, but it looks like clever marketing- as far as I can tell, you can't, say, download a pdf of a chapter; you pretty much have to go page by page. So on a practical level, it's a big ad.

    Also, you need Mathematica to run the programs.

    So, if you get hooked by the online text, Wolfram can count on 1 book sale, and maybe 1 Mathematica license (if, like me, you don't study/work somewhere with a site license).

    --
    Simple Unexpected Concrete Credible Emotional Stories
    1. Re:I'm voting for clever marketing by chaoticset · · Score: 2, Funny
      ...as far as I can tell, you can't, say, download a pdf of a chapter; you pretty much have to go page by page...

      Just means that your spider is forced to go slowly. NBD. :)
      --

      -----------------------
      You are what you think.
    2. Re:I'm voting for clever marketing by kurosawdust · · Score: 4, Funny
      Also, you need Mathematica to run the programs.

      Yeah, that's much worse than the paper version, where the programs run themselves if you press the "Go" button on the page with your finger.

  12. So What's the Deal? by StormyMonday · · Score: 2, Troll

    A cellular automaton is simply a description of a discrete differential equation. Since physical laws are described in terms of differential equations to start with, it's not surprising that a cellular automaton can model a physical process.

    So what's the deal? Outside of Wolfram's ego, of course.

    --
    Welcome to the Turing Tarpit, where everything is possible but nothing interesting is easy.
    1. Re:So What's the Deal? by Rhubarb+Crumble · · Score: 2, Insightful
      A cellular automaton is simply a description of a discrete differential equation. Since physical laws are described in terms of differential equations to start with, it's not surprising that a cellular automaton can model a physical process.

      So what's the deal? Outside of Wolfram's ego, of course.

      The "deal" is that he's trying to appear cutting edge and jump the genetics/bioscience bandwagon by using biological metaphors. That's all there is to the book, as far as I can tell.

    2. Re:So What's the Deal? by erixtark · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Emergent properties of complex systems. That's the deal.

      You might as well have written "a neuron is simply a cell, connected to other similar cells, that responds to input and generates output". It's true, but it's irrelevant. Put 20 billions neurons together, however, and things start to get interesting.

      But what do I know. My brain haven't read the book yet.

  13. worth the money by Urd · · Score: 5, Interesting

    As someone who owns and has read that book, I say it was definitly worth the money even if it was just a collection of other people's work. The point is ANKOS complete and insightfull. It actually says something specific, which is more then we can say about plenty of books hailed by the noobs. I think the man deserves some compensation for the work put forth even if it was only collecting and copywriting he saved me from a long journey to learn from his insights.

  14. Re:Meh... by after · · Score: 3, Funny
    I read the first chapter before my brain decided to fall asleep on me...
    Maybe one day I'll get to reading it, but there's just so much material in that book...

    That reminds me of the time that I cryed when trying to install Debian. I never thaught that computer can make a man cry.

    Maybe one day I'll get to install it without running away like a little girl.
  15. Are we forgetting about something... by killermal · · Score: 5, Informative

    Anyone who is a visitor of Wolfram MathWorld or ScienceWorld will recognize the invaluable contribution that Wolfram has made to the scientific community. From a personal perspective without MathWorld sometimes I would be completely lost...

    1. Re:Are we forgetting about something... by Gyan · · Score: 4, Informative


      I'm not sure how much has been updated, but Wolfram simply purchased Eric Weisstein's collection pf "Treasure Trove" sites and renamed as [subject]World.

    2. Re:Are we forgetting about something... by Mr_Dyqik · · Score: 4, Informative

      Or more accurately, provided hosting for them, employed Eric Weisstein to maintain it and paid for the lawyers to defend the copyright case against it.

  16. A Good Step Forward by YukioMishima · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Wolfram's broad sharing of his work, while still limited (you still need an internet connection, at least momentarily, to save or print it) is a terrific step forward in sharing information with a broader audience that may be interested in his work. I was one of the purchasers of his book when it was first published, but it was expensive enough (even while heavily subsidized by Wolfram himself) that not everyone who was interested could find a copy.


    By publishing on-line, Wolfram does something courageous as well - rather than simply submitting his work to academia and using their vetting procedure, he's opening up his work for criticism from a much, much wider body of critics. Forums like /. give us the opportunity to discuss the merits of his work - by the end of today, there will be many critiques of his work on this page, and everyone who takes the time to read those will come away from the discussion with many different perspectives that they might never have stumbled upon.


    It's true that Wolfram has his own agenda to push here, and it might be compared to self-publishing a newspaper that only focuses on what you want, but one could argue that about nearly anything that's published, and I'd rather have the material disseminated so that I can read it and come to my own conclusions.

  17. Unfortunately... by AndrewHowe · · Score: 3, Funny

    It's currently suffering A New Kind of Slashdotting.

  18. Bloated HYpe by linuxislandsucks · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Considering that Stephen refused for public discourse and review of an alledged scientific work and now is whining that his critics are worng..

    Maybe this work shoulde be burned in the fireplace where it belongs

    --
    Don't Tread on OpenSource
  19. It's not the money, it's the claims by YouHaveSnail · · Score: 4, Insightful

    he raised the suspicions of many in scientific communities that he was taking advantage of a lot of other people's work for his sole financial gain and that he was going against the open nature of academia by using restrictive copyright.

    I think the thing that offended most people is that Wolfram seemed to be taking credit for other people's ideas. And also, he comes off as being tremendously pompous. He hid away for ten or more years, then comes out with a book claiming, as per the title, to have invented an entirely new way to solve problems. What's he got? Algorithms and cellular automata.

  20. Before anybody complains about Wolfram's book, by DeepDarkSky · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I say, RTFB (Book). What!? You haven't? It's too damn big? Well go read it and THEN come back and complain.

    On the other hand, I think that people's attitude toward his work is not a problem of the merit of the his work. Rather, it is the way he seemed so self-important when pointing out something that seems deceptively simple that many people have covered before (Cellular Automata).

    The universe is not governed by vastly complicated equations wrought by the human mind. And Wolfram pointing that out simply offended people who believed otherwise.

    1. Re:Before anybody complains about Wolfram's book, by phil+reed · · Score: 4, Insightful
      The universe is not governed by vastly complicated equations wrought by the human mind.

      True. The universe is described by complicated equations wrought by the human mind.

      --

      ...phil
      "For a list of the ways which technology has failed to improve our quality of life, press 3."
    2. Re:Before anybody complains about Wolfram's book, by elmegil · · Score: 3, Insightful
      I've read the book.

      The book doesn't point out anything more than hints and allegations of what you said. As other people have pointed out, he solves nor resolves NO existing problem with his approach, he just shows how CA behavior maps to real systems behavior and says "aha!" and moves on.

      When you combine that with the VAST amount of self-horn-tooting that he engages in, you get a fairly dull book.

      --
      7 November 2006: The day Americans realized corruption and incompetence weren't addressing 11 September 2001
  21. Re:obligatory by Rhubarb+Crumble · · Score: 2, Insightful
    This new kind of science - what's that all about? Is it good, or is it wack?

    For a change, this is actually a legitimate question. Having browsed through a friend's copy (thank god I didn't splash out for one of my own) I have come to the conclusion that it is "whack". A colossal exercise in vanity publishing, nothing else (except for the gratuitious advertising for his own software). Pretty pictures though.

  22. review by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I wish I could find the original source, but the best review I saw of the book was along the lines of "It is a scary example of what happens when serious megalomania is combined with bad sh*t insanity."

    I saw Wolfram speak shortly after the book came out, and it was almost laughable. He made a sequence of sweeping generalizations and, so far as I could tell, backed none of them up.

    That said, there is some useful stuff in the book (albeit, not all contributed by Wolfram) but it is a beautiful example of why the standard process of peer review and sharing work with your colleagues is a good idea. Wolfram did neither of these things and the book is the poorer for it.

  23. A rare blend indeed... by levell · · Score: 5, Funny

    That's the book that was described by one researcher as: "A rare blend of monster raving egomania and utter batshit insanity" which when I first read it made me laugh out loud. I haven't read the book so I don't know how accurate it is.

    --
    Struggling to find a day everyone can make? WhenShallWe.com
  24. Yes by That's+Unpossible! · · Score: 5, Funny

    I often look to Anonymous Cowards for respected peer review.

    --
    Ironically, the word ironically is often used incorrectly.
    1. Re:Yes by dasmegabyte · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I have an account AND an review.

      The AC is half right. It is not a great work like the Principia Mathematica. He spends way too much time dwelling on his cellular automata. His book could have used an editor willing to tell the brooding genius that his ideas weren't really explained well. His layman's language and reiteration of his WAY understated hypothesis make him seem like more of an amateur than he is.

      But he's not doing it for the money. The book is huge, printed using an expensive process and self-published. Even still, it was cheap...$45, less than half the cost of a physics textbook and about what I'd expect to pay for a good poetry collection. To self produce and distribute such a massive and expensive to produce book, even with the massive press behind it, he can't have recouped enough to make the effort worthwhile.

      It's my opinion that Stephen really thought he was on to something. It's also my opinion that he was on to something, but that he dwelled too much in the mechanics to really explain what he was doing to people who don't care about cellular automata. I also wonder if his programs are influenced by hidden variables (like his choice of borders, and their effects). Really, this book needs a companion volume written by somebody who can explain what the Stephen's talking about when he says "New Kind of Science" without going on and on about series numbers and alternating gray squares.

      --
      Hey freaks: now you're ju
    2. Re:Yes by kisak · · Score: 2, Informative
      A well written review of Wolfram's book is found in Physics Today by Leo P. Kadanoff.

      Kadanoff both discuss the strong points of the book:

      First, it is an excellent pedagogical tool for introducing a reader, even one who has no knowledge of advanced mathematics, to some of the concepts of modern computer science, mathematics, and physics. [...] This is a tour de force of clarity and simplicity.

      But Kadanoff also points out several weaknesses:

      However, the reporting of history is spotty and sometimes quite weak. [...] From my reading, I cannot support the view that any "new kind of science" is displayed in Wolfram's new book. I see no new kinds of calculations, no new analytic theory, and no comparison with experiment.
      --

      --- guns don't kill people, people with guns kill people ---

  25. positive step for scientific writing by guacamolefoo · · Score: 3, Informative

    Perhaps Wolfram is giving back to the scientific community; perhaps it is simply clever marketing for a framework that is beginning to gain momentum. For any matter, the entire encyclopedic volume is online, and this appears to be a positive step for scientific writing.

    Nope. This is a positive step for scientific writing.

    GF.

  26. A New Kind of Science by hackus · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Well,

    I understand everyone has to make a living. When I read his work, I was interested in his unique view that complexity arises from simplicity and that he had combined a large field into a view of complexity all his own.

    The insights are fascinating, especially the ability to build computational systems with simple repeating rules....(i.e. multiplication tables...etc.) from graphical representations.

    The biggest disappointment is that he didn't provide enough practical research in testable form in the book to double check his experiments, some of them very heavily numerical in composition, which would require a lot of programming to confirm.

    My biggest problem is that he uses a $1500-$3000 dollar Mathematics tool, he says he invented himself, that he profits from, to confirm his research.

    That I do find a bit hard to swallow, including the license required to run Mathematica.

    Science shouldn't operate on the principle of PAY to play. Anyone should have access to any and all information for free.

    The labor to create it however, should not be free, and we have plenty of avenues in the free market place to do that just like Open Source Software companies have shown such as RedHat.

    The book does give a very large impression that Mr. Wolfram discovered these things all by himself...you have to follow the booknotes to find out who's shoulders he is standing on.

    In the end, he is sort of like a Newton who is focusing the worlds attention on the fundamentals of complex systems theory and what it is, and how we can use it to improve the scientific method. He is using a large amount of research though that many have contrinuted too.

    My .02.

    -Hack

    --
    Got Geometrodynamics? Awe, too hard to figure out? Too bad.
    1. Re:A New Kind of Science by rokzy · · Score: 2, Funny

      but Newton is famous for saying "If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants."

      Wolfram is famous for saying "I've created A New Kind Of Science. You owe me $200,000."

    2. Re:A New Kind of Science by drudd · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Of course science shouldn't operate on the principal of pay to play, but how does it in this case?

      You're free to re-implement his algorithms in any language you want. He just made your job much easier if you happen to use Mathematica. If he didn't code his samples in Mathematica, people would point to it as proof that he doesn't use his own product.

      Doug

      --
      Venn ist das nurnstuck git und Slotermeyer? Ya! Beigerhund das oder die Flipperwaldt gersput!
  27. thinking this is crap? by Urd · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Well I got news for you: most of you also said Einstein was full of it and then said the same of Heisenberg. Just look under your fingers to see the proof these guys' theories at work. All this kind of people are saying is that _themselves_ are incapable of understanding the conceptual change, and that by consequence nobody else will either. This is a lot like saying you don't understand Pythagoras' theorem and then going on to say it's crap. I have to say how much I really admire those people *not*!!

    1. Re:thinking this is crap? by Elgon · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Yes - but on the other hand, for every person who was proclaimed to be full of crap but was actually a genius, there really were 999 people who were, in fact, just full of crap.

      Elgon

  28. this guy ... by Glog · · Score: 3, Funny
    ... is a *humble* genius. Read it and weep (page 1, 1st chapter):

    For what I have found is that with the new kind of science I have developed it suddenly becomes possible to make progress on a remarkable range of fundamental issues that have never successfully been addressed by any of the exisiting sciences before.
  29. ohhh, WolfRAM... by mobiux · · Score: 2, Funny

    For a second I thought the wolfman was making a come back.

    Totally ready for the weekend.

  30. But do the senior partners approve? by Channard · · Score: 4, Funny

    And when can we expect the announcement of his new book, co-written with Viktor Hart, full time mad scientist and re-animator?

  31. This is not how science works... by Aardpig · · Score: 4, Insightful

    From one of the links discussing Wolfram's use of others' work:

    In the 1990's Matthew Cook served as a research assistant to Stephen Wolfram , where among other things he was directed to develop a proof showing that the Rule 110 cellular automaton is Turing-complete . Under non-disclosure until the publication of Stephen Wolfram's A New Kind of Science, Cook nevertheless presented his proof at a Santa Fe Institute conference. Subsequently, it was stricken from the published proceedings by court order.

    This really highlights what a megalomaniac Wolfram is. While he may be remembered after his death, I imagine it will be for his insufferable ego, not for his scientific achievements.

    Oh, and regarding Mathematica: its use by students should be banned until they are able to outperform it in terms of mathematical sophistication. Its overuse in universities is leading to an intellectually-stunted generation.

    --
    Tubal-Cain smokes the white owl.
    1. Re:This is not how science works... by Aardpig · · Score: 2, Insightful

      How is having a computer look up an integral in a database any different from looking it up yourself?

      Because it is often the case that the solution to a given math problem is less important than the means used to obtain that solution. For instance, consider Zeno's paradox: to explain how Achilles can overtake the tortoise requires one to consider such concepts as infinite summations and limits. Just to assert that Achilles will overtake the tortoise offers no insight into the paradox whatsoever.

      --
      Tubal-Cain smokes the white owl.
    2. Re:This is not how science works... by wanax · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Outperform it in terms of Mathematical sophistication?

      Whats that supposed to mean? Answer a question Mathematica can't? Nearly every college math student I know can do that.

      Or perhaps answer every question that Mathematica CAN answer? I highly doubt that there's a mathematician in the world today that can do that.

      Mathematica is a tool, the results you get out are only as useful as your understanding of them.

      Oh, and intellectually stunted generation? Intellectually stunted because students of today no longer learn several dozen arbitrary tricks to manually solve differential equations? Pullease. Mathematica (or Matlab, or Maple etc) gives students a tool to investigate problems that were previously inaccessible--that hardly makes them intellectually stunted.

  32. Which **AA is next by l0ungeb0y · · Score: 2
    Hmmmmmm

    "...he raised the suspicions of many in scientific communities that he was taking advantage of a lot of other people's work for his sole financial gain and that he was going against the open nature of academia by using restrictive copyright."
    "Perhaps Wolfram is giving back to the scientific community; perhaps it is simply clever marketing for a framework that is beginning to gain momentum."

    So what organization will Random House et al cobble together, dress up in flight jackets and use to break into every nerdy teenagers bedroom? What happens when the RIAA thugs and the Book thugs show up at the same place at the same time? Do tehy fight for dibs on the kids piggy bank? Now that I'd like to see.

  33. Re:Didya know? by Aardpig · · Score: 2, Informative

    Wolfram = German for tungsten

    Hence 'W' is the symbol for the element tungsten.

    --
    Tubal-Cain smokes the white owl.
  34. Re:Either way a good thing by Doomdark · · Score: 2, Insightful
    The $45 plus to get it is a big barrier to jump for the average science junkie, let alone 'core geek.

    Well... geeks I know wouldn't have a problem. They fork 100$ (or whatever, I'm no Star Wars freak) for an AT-AT walker, or 500$ for home stereo system, and so on. And yet always whine about not having enough money for anything, boss being a prick for not giving a raise, and so on. :-)
    Plus, don't computer games nowadays cost about that much ("when I was a kid, games came in tapes, and cost just 6 guids!") as well? I've yet to meet a game junkie that does NOT buy latest sequel to their favourite series, due to price.

    So, 45$ wouldn't be much of a problem with any geek with a job; IF they were interested in it. Of course buying a 5$ paperback would be easier purchase, but it really comes down to interests.

    --
    I like paying taxes. With them I buy civilization -- Oliver Wendell Holmes
  35. You should ! by Thomas+Miconi · · Score: 4, Insightful

    He may be a smart guy, but I think he might just be recycling old material and calling it the Next Big Thing (TM)

    This is quite true, notwithstanding the fact that he is precisely the source for much of this old material in the first place ! Wolfram is really a strange guy, and he does have weird ideas (especially on evolution), but at the end of the day he really started something deep.

    Wolfram did not invent cellular automata, but he was the first one to study them in a scientific way. And he did find interesting things (papers here - caution, big hairy theoretical physics maths inside, but the central idea is quite clear) .

    First: very simple rules (a 1-D cellular automaton in which each cell depends only on its current state and that of each of its neighbour) can lead to arbitrarily complex behaviours regardless of initial conditions. But this is not the really interesting thing.

    Second: Possible behaviours for a simple cellular automaton can fall in 4 categories: frozen (nothing changes), periodic, chaotic (measurably chaotic behaviour in which no recognizable pattern appears), and most importantly "complex": patterns emerge, propagate through the system, interact together in complex and non-trivial ways. Conway's game of Life is the most famous exemple of a class-IV cellular automaton, but Wolfram found a few much simpler ones.

    There is something deep there. You probably heard about "chaos theory". Well what Wolfram says is that this is not the really cool stuff. If you think of it, chaos is just as boring as frozen, non-changing states. If you modify something in a frozen state, well your modification either stays there forever, or is immediately swallowed into oblivion. In the chaotic state, any modification you make will instantaneously disappear in the general whirlwind.

    But there is a small zone between these two extremes, in which a modification may give rise to patterns, structures, complex bursts of information that appear, grow, propagate and interact. This is what Doyne Farmer and Chris Langton later called the "Edge of Chaos", where interesting stuff can happen : an actual phase transition, often governed by a small set of parameters (possibly just one), between boring order and completely chaotic states. Around this pahase transition, interesting things can appear.

    The world exist because the laws of physics are at the edge of chaos. Would the physical world be chaotic, no structure would ever appear, it would instantaneously be dissolved. In a frozen state, the universe is a black rock. Similaraly, life exists because chemistry is also on the edge of chaos. Molecules can assemble, interact in complex ways and produce order, patterns, structure.

    There is something deep there. This guy, together with people like Chris Langton, Doyne Farmer, Stuart Kauffman, is one of the Founding Fathers of complexity sciences. "How do complex systems arise ? If I have a system, what are the condtions under which it can produce freeze, go straight away to chaos, or produce interesting things ? How do structures emerge in a given system ?" Take any paper by any of these four, and you immediately get into mind-boggling stuff. "Life, the universe, everything" - and it's a bit more complicated than 42.

    Wolfram goes on. He (and his students) proved that even elementary cellular automaton can actually be universal Turing machines (unsurprisingly, these are class-IV automata). Thus the undecidability principle must be applied to them: you cannot guess, for a given cellular automaton, what the result will be after N iterations - or at least, you cannot do it with less calculations than it would take to actually perform these N calculations.

    If such a simple thing as an elementary CA can give rise to universal computation, then universal computation and (most importantly) un

    1. Re:You should ! by tgibbs · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Wolfram has clearly made significant discoveries in the field of CA, although he didn't invent them, or the concept. His "experimental mathematics" strategy of using computer simulations to suggest mathematical hypotheses which he then proves by more conventional approaches is probably one that will become increasingly common.

      In terms of his "you can explain everything with CA" thesis, Wolfram basically provides little more than preliminary results. The work is intriguing and many aspects appear promising, but as far as I can tell, he hasn't actually solved any major problem in biology or physics using his approach. There have been other examples of mathematical insights that were supposed to revolutionize biology (remember Catastrophe Theory?), and they have rarely turned out to be as revolutionary as their proponents expected. It might be a useful tool, but I'm waiting to see something of value built with it.

  36. has anybody actually read the whole book? by ikoleverhate · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I've seen a few comments from people saying they flicked through, but not one person saying they read it all.

    I have to say (not having read it) that when someone says they have written something that breaks conventional wisdom, and the only response is from people saying it's rubbish EVEN THOUGH THEY HAVE NOT READ THE ENTIRE BOOK, I begin to mistrust the views of anyone saying it's rubbish.

    If you haven't read the thing, having any definitive view on it is bogus. Trying to convince others that your view is correct is even more bogus. The closest we've got to a review is "I read a review by someone else and...." WTF? What makes you think that reviewer read it either?

    And these same people say this wolfram guy is a charlaton? His critics seem worse, somehow.

    1. Re:has anybody actually read the whole book? by Alomex · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Look, if I'm auditing the books of a company, and a few random checks show that almost all additions so tested are incorrect I can dismiss the entire thing as an Enron job, without having to read the entire thing.

      The same is true of NKS. Open it to almost any page, and three things stand out (1) plenty of pretentious claims (2) large number of unatributed ideas, (3) dearth of truly new insight.

      God knows we scientists have put up with plenty of arrogant scientists because at the end of the day the could deliver the goods (Millikan comes to mind).

      Wolfram's book fails the open at random page test. The book is pseudoscience and I don't have the time, inclination or more importantly the *need* to read the remaining 1400 pages of drivel to prove it.

  37. A note to those pursuing academic careers.. by nehril · · Score: 3, Insightful

    In academia there tends to be a strong bias against anyone who becomes "popular." Any academic who can write such that people who haven't studied the field for 15 years will understand will probably get labelled as a "hack" or "completely without merit" and some other unsavory adjectives, regardless of the quality of their other work. The closeted insiders that nobody's ever heard of can't stand anyone who makes it into the daylight.

    I've seen this reaction across any number of technical or non-technical academic fields. Sometimes the thrashing is justified, usually it's not. But it always happens.

    As someone once said: "The politics in academia are so nasty only because the stakes are so small."

  38. More Wolfram reviews than you can shake a stick at by abbamouse · · Score: 4, Informative

    A collection of reviews from actual scientists is available right here, for those who are tired reading the opinions of the uninformed.....

    --
    Make cheese not war 8:)
  39. Online Video of Wolfram Lecture by stardazed0 · · Score: 4, Informative

    MIT hosts videos of many different speakers who have come to their university. Stephen Wolfram is one of them: http://mitworld.mit.edu/video/149/

  40. If only I knew ahead of time.. by internetdarwin · · Score: 2, Funny

    Soooo, can anyone please tell me where the web form is to submit my book and get my $50 USD back? I cannot find it anywhere.

  41. Skeptic Magazine takes Aim by Sebastopol · · Score: 4, Informative

    Skeptic Magazine wrote a great article on Wolfram and his claims. After reading it, I got the impression Wolforam is a fraud, but the article didn't explicitly say that:

    Skeptic Magazine Article Link

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    https://www.accountkiller.com/removal-requested
    1. Re:Skeptic Magazine takes Aim by 0x0d0a · · Score: 2, Insightful

      On the other hand, Skeptic Magazine also hasn't given us Mathematica.

  42. Joe Weiss's Review by Viking+Coder · · Score: 3, Informative

    Did anyone bother to read Joe Weiss's review on amazon? Best. Review. Ever. Posted here in its entirety:

    The Emperor's New Kind of Clothes, February 28, 2003 by Joe Weiss

    This review took almost one year. Unlike many previous referees (rank them by Amazon.com's "most helpful" feature) I read all 1197 pages including notes. Just to make sure I won't miss the odd novel insight hidden among a million trivial platitudes.

    On page 27 Wolfram explains "probably the single most surprising discovery I have ever made:" a simple program can produce output that seems irregular and complex.

    This has been known for six decades. Every computer science (CS) student knows the dovetailer, a very simple 2 line program that systematically lists and executes all possible programs for a universal computersuch as a Turing machine (TM). It computes all computable patterns, including all those in Wolfram's book, embodies the well-known limits of computability, and is basis of uncountable CS exercises.

    Wolfram does know (page 1119) Minsky's very simple universal TMs from the 1960s. Using extensive simulations, he finds a slightly simpler one. New science? Small addition to old science. On page 675 we find a particularly simple cellular automaton (CA) and Matthew Cook's universality proof(?). This might be the most interesting chapter. It reflects that today's PCs are more powerful systematic searchers for simple rules than those of 40 years ago. No new paradigm though.

    Was Wolfram at least first to view programs as potential explanations of everything? Nope. That was Zuse. Wolfram mentions him in exactly one line (page 1026): "Konrad Zuse suggested that [the universe] could be a continuous CA." This is totally misleading. Zuse's 1967 paper suggested the universe is DISCRETELY computable, possibly on a DISCRETE CA just like Wolfram's. Wolfram's causal networks (CA's with variable toplogy, chapter 9) will run on any universal CA a la Ulam & von Neumann & Conway & Zuse. Page 715 explains Wolfram's "key unifying idea" of the "principle of computational equivalence:" all processes can be viewed as computations. Well, that's exactly what Zuse wrote 3 decades ago.

    Chapter 9 (2nd law of thermodynamics) elaborates (without reference)on Zuse's old insight that entropy cannot really increase in deterministically computed systems, although it often SEEMS to increase. Wolfram extends Zuse's work by a tiny margin, using today's more powerful computers to perform experiments as suggested in Zuse's 1969 book. I find it embarassing how Wolfram tries to suggest it was him who shifted a paradigm, not the legendary Zuse.

    Some reviews cite Wolfram's previous reputation as a physicist and software entrepreneur, giving him the benefit of the doubt instead of immediately dismissing him as just another plagiator. Zuse's reputation is in a different league though: He built world's very first general purpose computers (1935-1941), while Wolfram is just one of many creators of useful software (Mathematica). Remarkably, in his history of computing (page 1107) Wolfram appears to try to diminuish Zuse's contributions by only mentioning Aiken's later 1944 machine.

    On page 465 ff (and 505 ff on multiway systems) Wolfram asks whether there is a simple program that computes the universe. Here he sounds like Schmidhuber in his 1997 paper "A Computer Scientist's View of Life, the Universe, and Everything." Schmidhuber applied the above-mentioned simple dovetailer to all computable universes. His widely known writings come out on top when you google for "computable universes" etc, so Wolfram must have known them too, for he read an "immense number of articles books and web sites" (page xii) and executed "more than a hundred thousand mouse miles" (page xiv). He endorses Schmidhuber's "no-CA-but-TM approach" (page 486, no reference) but not his suggestion of using Levin's asymptotically optimal program searcher (1973) to find our universe's code.

    On page 469 we are told that the simp

    --
    Education is the silver bullet.
    1. Re:Joe Weiss's Review by aturley · · Score: 2, Informative
      Could you post this one for us? Otherwise, I'll have to give back my MS in CS, since I don't know what the hell you're talking about.
      This should give you some background on the topic. If you have an MS in CS, the information in the link should be enough to figure out "what the hell" he's talking about.
      Wouldn't a two-line program that could execute all possible programs make one excessively rich?
      I'm not even sure where to start with this one. Well, here's an attempt. Start with Turing and Church. Then move on to the halting problem. By the time you have re-acquainted yourself with these things, you should be able to understand the "program that could execute all possible programs" part of your question, and maybe even the "make one excessively rich" part. Now look into Perl, and also remember that have enough useful functions, anything can be a two line (or one line) program. For example, in my own programing language, Andycal, the following program would give you a hot sandwich:
      BringMeAFuckingSandwith(hotness=hot);
      I just haven't implemented the necessary functions yet. This should explain the "Wouldn't a two-line program" part.
      andy
      --
      Life is life . . . everything else is just a stupid T-shirt slogan.
  43. Time to call your bluff by exp(pi*sqrt(163)) · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Would you like to give an example of one of Wolfram's insights please? Just talking in generalities won't do.

    --
    Doesn't it make you feel good to know that our freedoms are protected by politicans, lawyers and journalists.
    1. Re:Time to call your bluff by Bingo+Foo · · Score: 2, Interesting

      How about: "You can make a truckload of money by selling effective software to a niche market."

      --
      taken! (by Davidleeroth) Thanks Bingo Foo!
    2. Re:Time to call your bluff by LnxAddct · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Well I would definitely recommend reading the book, but as far as insights go there are thousands. From the possibility of the universe being emulated through cellular automata, to all of physics being right but wrong and that cellular automata is the proper way to do it. He applies cellular automata to cellular growth, space time, and pretty much every area of life. He has a lot to say about generating intrinsically true randomness with cellular automata. He essentially claims that anything that ever was and will be can be explained through cellular automata. Thats a fairly broad claim, but he has the knowledge, resources, and insight to back it up. In all honesty I can't just list one insight do to the nature of how the book is interwoven, I don't have the time right now and I'd wind up citing 50 pages or so. But I do know of a forbes article, God, Stephen Wolfram, and Everything Else that may be of interest to you and does a pretty good job of summarizing what Stephen Wolfram has been up to for the past 20 years.
      Regards,
      Steve
      P.S. If you still deny that my argument isn't strong enough, just reply and in a few hours when I have time I'll give you some irrefutable information. Take care.

    3. Re:Time to call your bluff by exp(pi*sqrt(163)) · · Score: 2, Interesting
      I've already read as far as the physics chapter. I found very few insights. It's the same old wild speculation I can remember talking about while a student getting stoned in the eighties. People have speculated that the universe is a CA for ages. Some people have even given interesting arguments (like Susskind and 't Hooft's work on the 'Holographic Hypothesis') but Wolfram just waffles.
      He essentially claims that anything that ever was and will be can be explained through cellular automata
      Aahhh. You've undergone a religious conversion experience. The indicator that someone has had one of these is that statements so wide as to be empty actually hold meaning for you.
      --
      Doesn't it make you feel good to know that our freedoms are protected by politicans, lawyers and journalists.
  44. Who needs to read the whole book? by Thurn+und+Taxis · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Well, I haven't read the entire Time Cube web site either, but I read enough to form a solid opinion.

    --
    On stereophonic equipment, the monaural sound obtained through multiple channels will enhance your listening pleasure.
  45. Re:Open src compute algebra systems, was: Marketin by harlows_monkeys · · Score: 2, Insightful
    Maxima's history is interesting. It is based on the source code (Lisp!) of the Macsyma system developed at MIT circa 1970-1980. Mathematica is essentially a rewrite of Macsyma with very slightly different syntax. You know what they say about imitation

    Mathematica is much more of a rewrite of SMP, which was the symbolic math program Wolfram and Chris Cole wrote at Caltech, because Macsyma was too limited for the physics problems they were working on.

    To call Mathematica essentially a rewrite of Macsyma is like saying that Java is essentially a rewrite of Altair Basic.

  46. Visualizing automata.. by LocoBurger · · Score: 2, Interesting

    For fun, you might like to look at a java applet I wrote soon after this book came out. You plug in Wolfram's codes and it'll produce dependant automata like he describes in some chapters.

    The applet is here, at my personal website. Enjoy!

    You may also notice the background image one of those automata. :)

  47. Good Review of "New Kind of Science" by ccwood · · Score: 2, Informative

    Readers may be interested in an excellent review
    of "New Kind of Science" from the journal Science
    by Melanie Mitchell of University of Oregon and the
    Santa Fe Institute. The review is both thorough and
    balanced.

  48. Welcome to specialization by 0x0d0a · · Score: 2, Insightful

    This really highlights what a megalomaniac Wolfram is. While he may be remembered after his death, I imagine it will be for his insufferable ego, not for his scientific achievements.

    I suspect that many people said this about Sir Newton, who was also supposed to be an amazingly arrogant asshole. (This is not to suggest that Dr. Wolfram is Sir Newton's equal, just that someone being arrogant has hardly kept them from fame before.)

    Oh, and regarding Mathematica: its use by students should be banned until they are able to outperform it in terms of mathematical sophistication. Its overuse in universities is leading to an intellectually-stunted generation.

    I cannot agree.

    I agree that it is producing a more highly specialized generation. I assume that you are acquiring or have graduated with a computer science or mathematics degree. When you started on your degree, were you required to learn the philosophical foundation of mathematics? How about the physics and chemistry required to build the computer that any practical implementation of your work would require use of?

    At one point, a well-educated man could encompass most of the known fields of work. Later, it was still possible to understand a single field well. You could literally be simply a chemist, a physicist, or a mathematician. As the knowledge present in each field has exploded, the sliver of that field that can be fully known and understood by each person has dwindled. That is not necessarily bad -- it's simply a phenomenon that was abound to happen. It would be ideal for someone to fully understand, from the ground up, the field they work in, but that is less and less practical.

    I can cook a nice side of garlic bread. However, I have no knowledge of how to grow garlic itself, or of what processes and safety measures are involved in the production of the flour used in the bread. I don't even really know what goes into the bread. I don't know how to ward off insects from the grain used in the bread. If you removed me from society, I would die. I simply cannot function -- I am too specialized -- without society.

    Furthermore, given that knowledge has been increasing, each generation in a field will tend to have less an understanding of the fundamentals than their predecessors. This makes interdiciplinary knowledge sharing more difficult, and easier to make foundational mistakes, but is a prerequisite for the degree of advancement that we have achieved.

    For example -- I have never manually determined a square root. I simply have never had the need to to so, and schools no longer taught one how to find one by the time I went through school. My parents needed to learn this information, but I did not. If you took away all my computers and calculators, I could not determine a square root for you. Oh, I might be able to come up with an inefficient algorithm and manually, slowly, come up with an answer, but I would really be, to some degree, unable to function without my computing devices.

    If I needed to implement a calculator one day (and, incidently, calculators use different methods than the manual method we do to obtain numerical approximations of square roots), I could look up how people once did things by hand. However, generally, a specialized profession (calculator designer) has managed to take over and handle much of my work for me.

    Using Mathematica to do, say, advanced integration, makes perfect sense to me. Running through a vast collection of tricks to get a stubborn formula to integrate is, frankly, a waste of human time. A phenomenal amount of human time is wasted memorizing and trying to apply integration tricks. Why bother? Sure, it's not inconcievable that one day, I might do something sub-optimally because I lack knowledge in the area. However, if I *know* that I need to know something, I can track down an expert who does know. In the meantime, I will enjoy *known* significant time savings.

    I'm sure every generation has complained about this as specialization increases. It isn't new, and I don't believe that it's particularly negative.

    1. Re:Welcome to specialization by Aardpig · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Thanks for the long, thoughtful reply -- a rather rare occurence on Slashdot, unfortunately. For the record, my training is in astrophysics, so I use math on a daily basis but math is not my 'thing'.

      It's Friday night, so I'm only going to write a brief response before knocking off for the weekend. Continuing with your aposite square root analogy, my main point is this: sure, we should be using a calculator to do square roots; but only once we are familiar with what a square root is.

      A few years back, I was teaching physics out in a small village in Ghana (Africa). Surprisingly for the poor rural community I was in, a number of kids had calculators. And hell, they could do square roots. But if you asked them what made 2 the square root of 4, they had not a clue. They were able to get by regarding the square root process as a black box, but they had no fundamental understanding of it.

      Looking now at integration, when I ask a student why the integral of x wrt x is x^2/2, I don't want to get the answer: 'because Mathematica says so'. I want to hear something which shows at least some understanding of the process of integration. For instance, 'because the derivative of x^2/2 is x, and the fundamental theorem of calculus demonstrates that integration is the inverse operation to differentiation.'

      In my day-to-day work, I certainly do use Mathematica to take the tedium out of integration and other problems. However, without Mathematica the chances are that I could still solve these problems, albeit at a much slower rate. Because of this, I feel that I have more insight into the physics of the problems I'm solving.

      Returning now to the square root case, ponder this: for someone whose understanding of the square roots is limited to regarding them as black-box functions of calculators, how can they understand why the square root of a negative number causes the calculator to throw an error (assuming real math)? For them to obtain this insight, they need to learn a little more about square roots than the fact that a calculator can calculate them.

      --
      Tubal-Cain smokes the white owl.
    2. Re:Welcome to specialization by tgibbs · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I agree that everybody should know what an integral or derivative is, and be able to do a simple integral or derivative. That is a far cry from being able to "outperform" Mathematica in "mathematical sophistication." Integration, in particular, is not something for which there is a general algorithm; it is a grab-bag of tricks and transformations that have been discovered by mathematicians over many generations. I'm not sure what is gained by the average student of, say, physics in mastering the intricacies of this arcane art, as compared to investing the same amount of time on topics more immediately related to his field of study.

  49. Discrete universe makes CA a nice physical model by obtuse · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The first time I heard of the Planck distance and Planck time, cellular automata became much more interesting. That's why I'm interested in ANKOS. Besides, maybe I can get some good cites for the source material.

    The idea that even space and time are discrete (composed of tiny parts) instead of continuous, could have some very interesting implications. Lots of systems that are discrete appear continuous, but atomic theory made a lot of difference in physics and chemistry.

    I don't disagree that Wolfram is a crank, but he's a bright crank who is stealing from interesting people and talking about interesting things. I've met those people before, and they can be worth talking to as long as you keep your perspective. Like a paranoiac who's lead an interesting life. Listen, just don't get too close.

    I'll be looking over ANKOS online if the terms aren't too onerous. If they are, I'll buy a used copy of the book. Since he sued to prevent a presentation at a mathematical conference, I'll never buy a new copy. That's just wrong.

    --
    Assembly is the reverse of disassembly.
  50. Re:Discrete universe makes CA a nice physical mode by statusbar · · Score: 2, Informative
    Go out and find January's Scientific American issue and read up about loop quantum gravity.

    Plus other articles on the web.

    --jeff++

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    ipv6 is my vpn
  51. Re:[ Doesnt ] work well with others by pnkfelix · · Score: 2, Insightful
    Even Isaac Newton, another paranoic genius who may have geneuine invented many ideas ex-nihlo said "If I've have seen further, it is because I've stood on the shoulder of giants."

    You need to read Gleick's biography of Newton. He makes a very compelling case that when Newton wrote that, he was just kissing ass (it was in a private letter) and that he had absolutely no respect to the "giant" he was addressing it to.
    --
    arvind rulez