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Dell's New Linux Blog
comforteagle writes "I've just written up an interesting find: Linux engineers at Dell have started their own Linux site and weblog about Linux at Dell. From the announcement: "Welcome to the Dell Linux Community Web. This site is dedicated to providing any information that may be useful regarding your usage of Linux on your Dell equipment. While Dell primarily works with and officially supports Red Hat Linux, many of our customers choose to run other distributions." And perhaps more importantly it appears that the new site and weblog is run and maintained by the engineers themselves. It certainly has that 'made with vi' look." And kudyadi points to this PC Magazine interview with Michael Dell, in which Dell talks "about Dell's expanding product line, the company's late entrance into the Media Center space, and where the PC giant and the industry go from here." He touches on Linux just a bit, too.
Toshiba has an unofficial linux (and also *nix in general) support site at http://newsletter.toshiba-tro.de/main/ this is a lot useful to find machine hardware spec and linux (netware, *bsd) compatibility.
Stuff like this is very important for Linux as a whole and dell as a company.
For instance I would of bought a Dell laptop in a heartbeat if I knew dell supported it and offered a Windows-less or linux OS pre-installed.
I just didn't want to pay the "mircosoft tax".
So I just got a slightly used gateway from Ebay instead.
Desktops I don't care so much about since I build my own computers, but laptops and such are only aviable from manufacturers and linux support is a big plus.
There is a huge shift right now in several major companies to build servers with Dell rather than Sun/Solaris. I know a few companies that seem to be ordering 2650's by the truck load these days.
Saying Java is nice because it works on all OS's is like saying that anal sex is nice because it works on all genders.
Linux people typically prefer blog-type sites than flash-enabled marketroid zero-content stuff that pointy-eared bosses prefer.
:-(
Given that it uses a comments section, it'll probably turn into a useful technical resource as well... Could do with a decent search though
Simon
Physicists get Hadrons!
Looks like the blog is little more than a news feed for new software releases. I doubt they would be able to post any significant stuff about where / how linux is being used within Dell.
In such big companys there are often rules how to communicate with customers and they have common ways ("old fashioned") stuff like newsletters, discussion boards, press releases. If they now allow them to setup their own way this sounds like a benefit to the customer. Maybe they start a IRC Server next or publish their own set of linux patches (for dell specific needs).
BTW I would not buy a Dell labtop again my Inspiron is so poorly processed, if you press on the left side, it jiggles at the other....
Why not? It's not as if they like MS in particular... because of MS, they have to charge their customers money for Windows, Office, Encarta, etc., when selling with a free system like GNU/Linux+GNOME||KDE would lower the price point and attact more sales. Unfortunately, this is counterbalanced by a stigma (not true, but there nonetheless) that "my apps don't run under Linux," as well as the percieved usability issues. Thus, Dell needs MS and their monopoly to survive in the consumer market. If Linux became a powerful force in the home, as well as for servers, then Dell would most likely love to sell Linux pre-loaded systems.
#define DRM chmod 000
The lack of official support for linux on the Dell Desktop and Laptop Hardware has been one of the biggest impediments to rolling out a Linux User Machine in our enterprise.
While many of the development machines and older kit are fully integrated with the Linux OS, the new and less expensive kit is a complete pain to get to work.
One example is the Inspiron 1100 which has a massive problem with the video BIOS and Linux and takes a lot of work to get it right.
If Dell makes moves in the direction of support linux in the desktop, it can only help sales. I would definitely make Linux Desktop Support a part of a purchasing decision.
So, even Dell offers you *some* kind of installation support for Linux on Desktop Systems and Laptops (read: links to community supported laptop-groups, i bet that there's one or two active dell employees). I bet that there'll be some more support on that page in the future.
And our big linux brother IBM? Nada. At least where I live (europe) the official statement is and has been since 1999: IBM only supports Windows on these systems.
There are good internet resources and mailing-lists, *but* the only way to get there is google (no link at ibm.com, etc.)
IBM is cheating on us.
Hmm but I'm not convinced that they're really fully behind this!
"Don't belong. Never join. Think for yourself. Peace." V.Stone, Microsoft Corporation
We don't have the time to read blogs or address every silly detail in the same way as you do. We deal with the big picture (like making sure you get your salary next month) and delegate the details for you to work them out.
When we want feedback from you we want it on a couple of slides. We don't want to know how you tweaked your code to get 1% performance increase. We want to know how we're progressing and if there are any show-stopping problems.
Web pages you scorn don't have "zero content". It's just information us managers need.
I only saw the first page, but thats one of the nicest web pages i've seen done by engineers...
Plus who says you cant created good webpages with nothing except a text editor of your choice?
Giving IE users a taste of their own medicine since 2005 - http://pods.-is-a-geek.net/
The blog should last about as long as it takes Michael Dell to take his tongue out of Bill Gate's bunghole.
From the interview:
In other news, I love Texas businessmen. :) Check this out:
Not that I love Dell, or Michael Dell specifically, just that I really like the way Texas businessmen talk about their competition from time to time. There isn't any of this "we're gonna rule the world" crap. Usually just "as much as I can get, and I can get a lot". ;) (Only New Mexicans want to rule the world, and then they move to Seattle and find the drones to do it with :( )
Like what I said? You might like my music
From the interview, Micheal dell speaking about windows ME
MD: I went over to a friend's house the other day. He was having problems with his computer and he asked me to look at it, and I realized he had Windows Me and it's like, oh no--that's your first problem.
.ACMD setaloiv siht gnidaeR
...and backed up with no evidence.
Dell's a really open-form company to work for - if you have a great idea, people higher than you are willing to listen and roll with it. Linux is an idea people at Dell will roll with. It might sound crazy, but you really have to look at the way Dell operate as a company; they constantly look for ways to minimize cost for the consumer and maximise profit.
Now, they might have had a rocky road recently with regards to their Linux support, but that's for a number of reasons. Firstly, they didn't have any in-house knowledge of the product. By knowledge I don't mean a guy that uses it at home, I mean a truckload of support guys on phones, people who write drivers, people who can alter the Dell install and build process to accommodate Linux. Secondly, Linux is a moving target; which distro, what GUI, how do you support other configs, etc. etc... These are both big questions for a company that's been churning out identical Windows boxes year in, year out.
So, I'd be interested to think why Dell will be pulling the plug on the blog. As someone who's worked for Dell, I'd pretty much guarantee that if the site's there, it's been approved and has resources attached to it. Those pages are corporate Dell pages, not your average blog knocked out by an engineer... someone's taking time and money to get that up there.
If they are so damn Linux friendly they should call Dell in Sweden and talk to them.
I was looking for a new computer a couple of months ago. Some of the Dell laptop deals looked pretty good. I called them and said "I'm interested in that model. Is it possible to get it with another operating system, say Linux, installed?"
Dell: "No, I'm afraid that is not possible."
Me: "Would it be possible to get it with a blank hard drive then?"
Dell: "No, I'm sorry, we have a deal with Microsoft. You have the choice between Windows XP home or Pro, that's basically it. You know, you could always reformat the harddrive and install Linux yourself if that is what you want."
Me: "So you will not sell me a computer unless it has Windows on it?"
Dell: "I'm afraid so."
I said thanks but no thanks and hung up. Even if Dell gets Windows at a huge discount, I don't want to pay for software I'm not going to use. Nor do I want to add to Microsoft's false sales statistics.
This is all a very familiar story to all Slashdot regulars I'm sure. I do hope the major PC sellers are starting to come around though.
Being bitter is drinking poison and hoping someone else will die
EDD Disk Signature patch accepted into kernel 2.6.2-rc1-mm1
Dell engineers have submitted a kernel patch which allows Linux to determine which disk the BIOS believes is the system boot disk. Without this patch, Linux must guess which disk BIOS believes is the boot disk, which is pretty easy in a simple system configuration, but impossible in a system with multiple disks attached to multiple controllers.
Yep. It's great to see people from companies like Intel,IBM, SGI, HP, Dell all contributing.
I would imagine that these guys *really* want linux to succeed so they can stopping sucking up to redmond.
[/zealotry]
$ strings FTP.EXE | grep Copyright
@(#) Copyright (c) 1983 The Regents of the University of California.
So how many seconds will it take before Microsoft pulls its license agreement with Dell and files a lawsuit? :)
Many people I know over 50 years old prefer 800x600. Ever watch an older person squint painfully at a 1024x768 screen? More people than you know use 800x600.
>Do you still think AMD is better value for money?
Yes, because unlike Dell workers, I spend 2 seconds to check if the heatsink is properly mounted.
Good news. But at the same time, and as usual, this is a grass roots movement, while officials can't be bothered too much.
I asked DELL support about a Linux-related problem and they told me they don't support Linux. They said my laptop was shipped with Windows 2000, so they can't be bothered. While this is certainly true, it's not MY fault that they didn't ship Linux in 2001 when I bought it.
I've also contacted them about RAID systems, and they corporate sales folks I had contact with didn't really know what they were talking about, so I had to get in touch with a RedHat developer to answer my question (which he instantly did).
Maybe here's a good way to make money for distro companies: try get a service contract with hardware vendors like DELL, who haven't got enough inhouse expertise (at support level).
I do hope this engineering effort is part of a wider wave in the company.
Think about it another way:
Dell offer support on all their kit, it's part of the sales procedure. So while you might want Linux on your laptop, it opens them up to a boatload of questions and issues regarding support.
How does a company offer support on a PC sold with a blank drive?
Sure, you could do hardware only, but ascertaining what the problem is usually means ruling out the software/drivers first. If you send your laptop back with a faulty video card, how would they test it and get it back to you?
What I'm saying is that it's all well and good to moan about them not selling you a blank drive laptop, but from their point of view, it's half a product. Dell sell and support laptops with a Windows operating system, and until they can see the market swinging towards a point where a Linux support team is cost-effective and - to be blunt - needed, they aren't going to ship you anything but a Windows laptop.
Incidentally, it's the same with Apple. Have you tried buying an Apple without an OS? You can't, but no-one ever moans about Apple tax...
Lalala
You're still right, though - while they sell YDL pre-installed, apparently Mac OS is also still installed and you can dual-boot.
Switch back to Slashdot's D1 system.
When Dell stops this bullshit, and offers a windows delete credit across their entire product line (without invalidating warranties), then you will finally know that Dell isn't paying lip service to Linux anymore (and pocketing the Microsoft tax), and is no longer flagrant in its utter contempt for its customers.
Funny you should mention the fact that the notion is untrue - I used a Linux operating system once. The following software I had already invested in didn't work with it:
Microsoft Office Student Edition
Dreamweaver
Fireworks
Photoshop
Champi onship Manager worked most of the time after a lot of tweaking, and even then I wouldn't have classed it as reliable.
I think if you actually look at real world figures and software, you'll see that the opnion of "my apps don't run under Linux" is actually quite true.
Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (P)anic
did you consider these guys power notebooks?
they claim to sell alot of the same laptops as the major vendors less the ms tax. i read somewhere on their site that they buy the laptops from the same place as dell or gateway. the major vendors basically stick their logo on them and sell the laptops as their own. they will even preinstall linux, and they have a bulletin board where they answer linux related questions.
since it's not a name brand company, you can check out the reviews at reseller ratings.
i guess i should mention that i'm in no way affiliated with this company. i stumbled across them when a friend asked me where he should buy a laptop without windows.
-- john
Because "Windows Me is terrible" is one of those pieces of folk wisdom that everyone repeats.
I've had Me installed on a couple of systems for quite a while. Anecdotally, it's never seemed to be any less stable or more problem-prone than Windows 98 was -- which is to say not nearly as good as Windows XP or Windows 2000 but usable enough. (The systems I still have it running on are "light duty" and it's just never been worth the money/trouble to upgrade.) And, no, I can't upgrade them to Linux because they're running applications that aren't available on Linux.
As I recall, Windows Me did have some bugs and such when it first came out which gave it a bad reputation. However, I suspect the biggest issue that a lot of people had with it was that it WAS just Windows 98 with a new paint job--i.e. it wasn't really any better.
These pages are a much better advertisement for Dell than the complicated nightmares some pages are!
I can well believe that these have been done by the engineers there and have had little or no input from sales staff, graphic designers, clueless PHBs and other people whose job description boils down to "wears a suit".
My place of employment (a hospital) used a lot of Dell kit and I hope that the rest of the site learns a lot from this bit.
I'll see your Constitution and raise you a Queen.
This story is hardly news. In fact, this site has been up for quite some time now. Dell's had a Linux on PowerEdge(servers) mailing list for quite some time now, and you can purchase a PowerEdge preloaded with RedHat Enterprise. They even mirror the LKML there. And, interestingly enough, a decent chunk of Dell Employees (myself included) subscribe to these mailing lists.
The probability that someone is watching you is directly proportional to the stupidity of your actions.
As a Mac/FreeBSD user, who understands that people have to use Windows, I have a question. Why do people hate Windows Me specifically? As a product, I realize it's stupid to upgrade to (Win98 + different salad dressing), but if it was just that I don't see why people would hate it so much. From people I've met, it sounds like installing Me is the worth thing you can put on your box; people would rather use 98. Is it just that the removal of real mode DOS causes more problems than it solves or something?
Hmm, I'll give it a go, but I may not have it quite right.
Windows ME uses the same HAL as Windows 2000, but it's strapped onto an 'upgraded' win9x kernel, which is the old DOS kernel, as far as I know. True to form, Microsoft didn't quite get it right, so the HAL itself is extremely buggy and prone to failure. Since they were still kicking around the old DOS kernel, they still didn't have a decent threading model, and shit still interfered with one another. The 'improvements' wound up being more trouble than they were worth. I guess I would liken it to backporting Linux 2.6's HAL to Linux 2.0 and patching it with a bunch of untested crap from Siberia, passing it through 4 beta-testers who all just clicked on "My Computer" and said "Works Great!", and then releasing it.
From a usability point of view, it's slower than win98 by a long shot, drivers are few and far between (uses Windows 2000's HAL, but can't use Windows 2000 drivers, so ME requires a special set of drivers that don't work in any other version of Windows), and tends to crash if you have too many processes running. It's less stable than win95, more like the old Amiga OS in the 1.2 days without the cute guru meditations.
Actually, I used it for awhile and didn't experience any of this. Not that I loved it or anything, just that I didn't have any problems that I could directly attribute to WinME. I went to Win2k soon after it, though, because I wanted the NT kernel, and then finally dumped windows entirely for Mandrake Linux. So I haven't really used a Windows computer in 2 years.
Like what I said? You might like my music
If Dell is going to promote linux and linux help throughout their web site, then they *need* to start shipping the machines with linux or without windows. I have no idea what deal they have with Microsoft that prevents them from shipping alternative O/S's, but it's ridiculous. Most college kids can get a legal copy of Windows XP for $10 from their university, and open source operating systems are free.
I'd be more inclined to buy a laptop from Dell if I didn't have to drop extra money for an operating system I don't want. Until then, I'll be using my powerbook.
In any case, All the apps you mention run flawlessly in Crossover Office. The retail cost is about $65USD.
Many years agoa, Dell bought a SysVR4 license, and relased Dell UNIX. I and I'm certain many others bought Dell machines based upon this, and deployed them They hired some very good people to provide support for thier version of UNIX, it was a pleasure to work with these guys. Then one day, after I had not contacted tehm for a while, I discoverd that they had all be fired, and Dell was distancing itslef rom UNIX. I was left with an unsuported OS. This predated Linux, so thier really was no other good choice for an OS for these amchines. I've never bought a Dell product since.
nix is very simple, but it takes a genius to understand the simplicity. (Dennis Ritchie) ~
As someone who has been working with Dell to evaluate Dell notebooks regarding a possible 4000+ unit purchase, I can tell you that Dell has no official support for Linux, Redhat or otherwise on anything other than Servers.
Our RFQ specified that Linux support on the laptops they provided was required, and yet they provided a model with the Intel 855GM video chip, which is not released as a driver in recent distros such as Suse 9 and Xandros 2. They are following up with a shipment of an alternate model with a Radeon chipset and this should have no problem working. But if Dell were any different than the other guys with regards to Linux support, we would be seeing recognition of the details in our RFQ saying that hardware support under Linux is required. However on quizzing them on which Linux distro they used to verify it worked with Linux, they would not say anything. Dell=HP=Compaq=Gateway, etc., when it comes to their awareness of Linux and hardware support.
All of the blah blah blah you read about their support for Linux is only on the server line.
Someone at one of these companies has to get off their ass, call up their hardware vendors and DEMAND that all components provided come with Windows AND Linux driver support. If it doesn't, REJECT the component and switch to another hardware vendor. That is the only way the hardware vendors are going to get the message. It isn't a hard concept. It isn't impossible, it just takes a shift in priorities for the hardware vendor which they will be very happy to do once their bottom line is threatened.
Personally, I let Intel directly know that they could be out of sales of 4000+ of their Centrino chipset if they don't release supported drivers under Linux for our timeline.
When Windows 3.x was out, everyone who had a computer was a bit of a computer geek. It was crap, and people said so. Most of us typed in WIN manually only if the toy application we wanted to use required it.
When Win95 came out, there were a few AOL users out there who knew nothing of computers, but for the most part the average user was a geek. Bloat increased by a significant amount, but still, it was program related.
Windows 98 was a patch for all the evils of Win95. Computers that shipped with 98 came with some "extras", but it was still pretty clean. Marketers still thought of computers as "geek territory" and not worth panning for gold.
When Windows ME finally hit the scene, the OS itself was not bad. It was more or less a few extra features, some patches, and a more modern appearance. Sadly some fo the new features did not work as well as hoped. That's not to say the old stuff didn't work, but the new stuff was pretty rough around the edges. Another difficulty it faced was that people never learned from the past that YOU NEVER UPGRADE WINDOWS. You gotta install from scratch to get the best stuff. If you insert an upgrade disk you can count on your system being hopelessly caught in schitzo-limbo land. Also, computers that came pre-installed with WinMe were hopelessly bogged down with crap-ware, spy-ware, mal-ware, bloat-ware, and anything that a marketer could shove onto the 10GB hard drive as the box was headed out the door. It came with enough pre-loaded junk to destablize Debian.
ME had been set up by greedy marketers, stupid upgraders, and untested feature creep. So naturally the final nail in the coffin came from Redmond itself.
Believe it or not, the only way Microsoft can actually sell their latest version of crap is to launch a smear campaine against their current crap. People won't change willingly, so they quickly and viciously started bashing their own product by telling consumers who were experiencing any sort of problem that they needed to upgrade to Windows XP. (Now they encourage you to go WinXP Pro.) Guess what? It worked. It got people to buy XP IN SPITE OF ALL THE PROBLEMS IT HAS CAUSED!
What problems? Let's face it... Those worms have spread through XP faster than a dog hooked on pig shit. Meanwhile, those people still running a modestly firewalled Win98 or Me system have almost nothing to worry about.
So when you ask why people have such a problem with Windows ME, remember that most people who reply with comments about how unstable it is, are Windows XP users who would probably pay eskimos to spread snow on their lawn in the winter because "those guys know what they're doing", or they are "alternative" OS users who just hate "M$" because it makes them look pensive and "kewl".
I'm not saying that ME didn't have problems, but the problems it had have been so hyped that even otherwise intelligent and rational people will show signs of severely caustic brainwashing. Naturally, when I outgrew Windows ME, I realized that XP was a seriously expensive and dangerous lock-in technology I couldn't afford, so I'm not suffering from any of those symptoms... uh oh... Then again...
Well, I'm not really a Linux zealot just yet... I don't tell people to RTFM. :-P
Heh, beats me. :) From what I've seen toying around with my gf's iBook (900 Mhz, bought last Christmas for cheap 1200 Euros since it's a G3) OS X is really nice, and I wouldn't want to run Linux on it, either. Terra Soft have some sort of reasoning why you'd want to, but it's, well, very spiritual.
Switch back to Slashdot's D1 system.
Six years ago, if you put your head to the ground, you could hear a rumble.
The largest seller of corporate desktops openly embracing and encouraging Linux and free software is about as subtle as a passing freight train. So much for the careful dance Dell was supposed to do to avoid the wrath of Microsoft. Do you think for one instant that Dell wants Microsoft's DRM future to happen and leave them even more in Microsoft's grip? No one does and they are all breaking free. Everyone will follow Dells lead and it's going to go everywhere, the desktop, portables the works.
This leaves Microsoft with very little. With the acceptance of an alternate platform, Microsoft's hardware and software incompatibility extortion is over. As that alternate platform is technically superior, there is little reason to shell out big bucks for legacy software. Why would any company trust it's record keeping to Microsoft formats when free alternatives have widespread comercial support? There is competition in the future and everyone knows it. Standardizing into the upgrade cycle will soon be a thing of the past. Microsoft will compete by improving their code and EULAs or die. Let's see how long it takes them to figure out that their current business model is dead.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
Dell offers only Red Hat Advanced Server or Red Hat Professional (which is obsolete), so I bought the PowerEdge with no OS. P4-2.4 GHz, 1 GB DDR, 36 GB 10K rpm SCSI for $817 plus tax. SuSE 9 Pro installed without a hitch.
Dell must be moving a lot of these no-OS boxes. Their official support has been quite RH-centric, but the new website has a page that directly addresses other distros. SuSE recently announced that Dell was working more closely with them, and SuSE has certified a bunch of Dell machines.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
For example, the kernel interface for drivers is just the pits. I mean, you either have to have open source drivers to build for your kernel release, or your equipment manufacturer has to have a binary for every possible kernel version and build!
This is true in the windoze world too. Your old 3.1 drivers won't work with NT, might work with 95, won't work with ME or XP. In the free world, drivers get compiled for everything and packaged by the distro maker or by yourself.
Now that the M$ extortion is over, more hardware makers are going to be releasing free drivers. Those that won't sucked anyway and already left you high and dry. That's not the fault of kernel developers. I've been there with a wireless card that promissed "Linux support" but came with a closed binary that was compiled with a specific Red Hat compiler for a specific kernel. It sucked, but that was the card maker's fault. They should have simply released their code GPL and let everyone mirror it. If they were under restraint from a chipmaker, then the chipmaker sucked. The kernel's system of insmod and rmmod is way better than any Windoze junk that makes you reboot for simply looking at it! Add to that Windoze's mindless need for a specific driver for each and every device, even if they have the same damn chipset and are essentially identical. Free software's drivers that easily handle hardware from donzens of branders shows just how needlessly clumsy the Windoze way is.
Linux has a very inconsistent UI, so that tech support for "Linux" is very difficult. For example, somebody can't "get online". Are you running Lindows? Mandrake? Red Hat? Suse? Slackware? Gentoo? KDE? Gnome? IceWM? Which version of each? What kernel build do you have installed?
Once again, the same pain works in the windoze world, despite the seemingly limited choice. Do you know the differences between all the versions of AOL and the hardware requirements with respect to each version of windoze, for example? I know some of them - but each time I have to figure the damn thing out for the user. It's a job each service provider should be doing.
It is easier to fix free software problems. Besides the fact that there are fewer problems to begin with, the remote tools superior - they work better.
Try walking somebody through setting up email over the phone sometime. And, sorry, if you disagree with me on this point, it's probably because you haven't done it with a Linux setup you didn't install yourself in the first place.
Sure, you have to know your set up. I think I pulled out a suitably horrible example of how bad this is in the Windoze world. I'd far rather help someone set up Mozilla, Kmail, Balsa or even evolution than AOL or M$N. The weird settings the weird ISPs themselves have are the source of half of those problems. How those things get translated onto the half dozen Windoze platforms is a true nightmare. When you add the insecurity complication into the equation, 75% of the time, the user has a hosed system that needs to be wiped and reloaded. This is not the case in the free software world where settings are made and stay put.
Think about how much less trouble you have with that Red Hat system than your clients have with their Windoze boxes. Tech support is broken windows, day in, day out. It is precisely this kind of mindless repeated Microsoft support that convinces me that EVERYONE would be better off with free and open software. A Mac would be better and it's hardly free! A really free system offers quality, reliability, flexiblity and freedom from lock-in.
In any case, I agree with you when you say that Windoze is doomed.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.