Slashdot Mirror
Preempting Hailstone Formation To Protect Cars
Makarand writes "Nissan has become the first automaker in the United States to start using
a device that suppresses hail formation to protect its fleet of new vehicles
from hailstorm damage. The device is a cannon capable of shooting sonic waves upto
50,000 feet in the air to keep hailstones from forming. The
device comes with its own weather radar and activates when it detects
conditions favorable for hail formation. The device can provide
hailstorm protection in an area with one-mile radius by firing
sonic waves every five seconds."
What is not mentioned in the article is that this sonic cannon was sold to Nissan by Toyota, who knew that the technology is useless against the latest fleet of Goa'uld motherships.
Now they just need sharks with frikkin' radar beams.
I have bad karma....
Open source is heavenly, Microsoft is the devil, SCO is going to hell
Is that 120 db pulse every 5 seconds really going to do anything to a giant thundercloud, which for one probably buffers the sound. Also, is 120 db really that loud compared to the localized sound from a single lightning strike?
Sounds to me like these guys got taken. It's pretty hard to prove that you prevented hail, just as it is hard to prove that you created rain.
They found the device to be effective against hail, but couldn't figure out the recent surge in bat dropping related damage.
slashdot, news for crazed liberal socialist zealots
These fine people from "ke-bek"
Sponge!
...instead of having hail fall on your car, 747s do.
This is common practice around my area (Christchurch, New Zealand) to protect pip fruit and grape crops from hail damage. I'm frankly surprised this is news.
Let me post this (ganked from another site):
[blockquote]Basically, the anti-hail cannon uses
acetylene to shoot cations into the
atmosphere at sonic speed, which creates
shock waves that interfere with the
crystallization of ice, thereby resulting in
rain or sheet, but not hail. It covers a
circular area of about 0.3 mile radius,
roughly 200 acres.[/blockquote]
This sounds like a bunch of baloney to me. "Shoots cations" is as ridiculous as when you hear hippies talking about "bad ions" and "good ions" with respect to some stupid lava lamp.
How would breaking it down from hail into say small ice crystals mess up the planet?
slashdot, news for crazed liberal socialist zealots
was known as a roof.
Sure it will protect cars from hail, but what about all the falling pigeons?
Unfortunately, I am not Wil Wheaton
Any idea what the environmental impact is from these things?
LedgerSMB: Open source Accounting/ERP
They forgot to mention that Nissan's high frequency sound doesn't disrupt the hailstone process, it just tells the hailstones not to hit Nissan cars!
This wouldn't stop precipitation from happening, it's supposed to just stop the precipitation from forming hailstones. You'd get rain instead.
I doubt it's going to become much of a problem, either. With these things generating a 120db noise every 5 seconds, you're not going to see too many of them in populated areas - as the article says, they're mostly used by farmers to protect their fields.
That said, I'm really curious if it even works.
Customer Rep. Exec: Apparently consumers are complaining about hail damage to their cars.
CEO: Hail damage?
Head Engineer: Great, just great. The biggest problem that people want to complain about, we have no solution for. Hell, we were never even told that this was a problem!
CEO: Ok, ok. Look, we have to think. Does anybody have an idea as to how we handle this?
Guile: Sonic boom!
And so, Col. Guile's post-Street Fighter career, previously up in the air, was solidified.
Until Slashdot fixes the funny modifier, use insightful or interesting. The poster knows your intentions.
Apparently you don't want to live nearby (see the bottom of the story).
This sounds like it's worse than living next to an airport.
Related:
r ology/Weather_Modification/
. php
http://dir.yahoo.com/Science/Earth_Sciences/Meteo
http://www.weathermod.com/projects/hail/argentina
http://www.ametsoc.org/policy/wxmod.html
In New Zealand, horticulturalists have used this technology for at least 5 or 10 years now. In the region I live in, hail storms often ruin the large apple crops which were once our main industry.
Some horticulturalists have even been known to fly helicopters above their crops over night to stop frost from forming.
>I'd personally like to thank Nissan for coming up with yet another way to fck up the natural processes on this planet.
Natural, like a bearded pope, or pedophilia?
Sorry to break it to you, but daily we change natural processes on this planet. Chaging hail to snow or water sounds like a great idea to me.
If you could be told what you can see or read, then it follows that you could be told what to say or think - BoC
Actually, every car I've seen in operation did produce sonic waves (also known as sound). But until now I thought it was because of normal operation, not to prevent hail. :-)
The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
First reading of the article gave the impression that Nissan's new cars would be equipped with some kind of sound raygun which could be used for far more interesting things than blocking hailstones. Hey, aim that raygun at Ms Jone's house, watch the windows shatter. Cops coming? A little blast of decibels and their cars explode. Not to mention their eardrums and maybe even heads. Ugh.
But no, we're not going to see commercialized versions of the famous Somalian 'technicals', pick-ups with anti-aircraft guns mounted in the back.
Instead it's some kind of 'Highlander 2' plot in which giant rays are going to be beamed into the sky in order to prevent catastrophe raining down.
So, I have three questions.
(a) does anyone actually believe it's possible to stop hailstones forming in the heart of giant thunderclouds whose energies are hugely more than anything we can produce.
(b) what happened to the 'roof'? A simple, yet efficient way of stopping hailstones.
(c) who sold Nissan this thing? I'm looking for a good salesman for my company.
Ceci n'est pas une signature
That said, I'm really curious if it even works.
Of course it works!! Here's a little fun with science you can make yourself that proves how this works.
What you need:
1 peice of paper.
1 speaker, connected to a stereo.
some music.
Start by ripping the paper into little shreds and balling them up into tiny little balls. Next, take all the little balls and mash them together into one big ball.
Now if you have decent speakers you can just set the paperball mass on top of the cabinet. For those wussy computer speakers, I recomend turning it on it's side and placing the ball directly in the cone.
Now crank up your volume and watch what happens to those little balls. They start dancing around and the bigger ball falls apart! See! Now imagine that on a smaller scale, say ice crystal size. That is exactly what is happening to the hail when it gets sonically blasted.
These guys have seriously been had. Anyone that knows anything about atmospheric physics can tell you that most atmospheric models neglect sound waves, and for a very good reason--because they are insignificant when compared with other phenomena present in the atmosphere, such as...surprise...wind. Anything on the scale of a severe thunderstorm strong enough to produce golf-ball sized hail or larger will have vertical air motions in excess of 40-50 m/s (100mph). Combine this with the tremendous amount of turbulence associated with such violent vertical motions, and a few piddly sound waves don't stand a chance.
Furthermore, hailstones of the size they're concerned with usually form miles from the location they actually fall in, and are held aloft for substantial periods of time--sometimes longer than an hour. Eventually, however, the updraft in the storm will weaken or reposition itself, and when it does, look out below. So even assuming this device could prevent hail from forming within a 1-mile radius of itself, your stuff is still gonna get the crap beat out of it anyway.
Whether the guy that sold them on this was a meteorologist or not, this sort of crockery is what gives meteorologists a bad name.
Don't get me wrong. We got one of those car parks in the dock area here and it is huge but it wouldn't need to be a complex roof and its success would be 100%. Also stops sunlight and seagull shit and acid rain.
So nice story, didn't know this was even possible but Nissan probably got had. Will be intresting to hear what their neighbours will have to say about it. Noise polution in a 5 mile area? Never be allowed over here. Here people complain they can hear the trains in the house they bought that is next the rail track.
MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
RTFM: this is designed to protect the car park of thousands of new cars, to stop them getting dented predelivery. They're not mounting sonic cannon on the roof of each vehicle, although if it was an option I *would* buy it!
I have a device fitted to my house to prevent damage from hailstones. I call it a roof. It's silent, consumes no power, and also protects against rain, snow, intense sun, falling birds, and a whole host of other things...
This sentence no verb.
... drive nearby sandworms to a frenzy and provoke them to attack the vehicle, swallowing it whole?
...I am proof that intelligent beings are not always intelligent...
Their new hail protection system has saved them millions of dollars in damage to cars.
However, they system's "sonic boom" has broken millions of dollars in windows.
-Grump
Is it true that more people vote for the winner of American Idol, than vote for the president? -Ali G.
Nissan don't have them fitted to cars yet
Your thinking of a Volkswagon Golf
:-)
I've never shoed a horse, but I once told a donkey to piss off!
Back in the 1970's I was able to buy a hail damaged new Falcon for $750. Ford was dumping them because the cost to repair the damage would be more than the car was worth. I thought it was a super deal.
It had dozens of quarter sized dimples, and ran really fast. I'm not sure, but it might have benefited from some kind of golf ball wind resistance effect.
When I visited Batlow (the apple capital of NSW) over 14 years ago, they had sonic cannons for hail protection at the time. So yeah, slashdot, "news from the 1980s revisited". I hear that these new fangled phones that don't use wires are coming onto the market too (yup, I saw a homeless beggar using one at the weekend), so maybe slashdot will be reporting on that too? :-)
This reminds me of the German antipersonnel sonic cannon developed during WWII.
Apparently, this one required a targetted infantryman to remain in place for more than half a minute, but the idea is probably similar.
Cole's Law: Thinly sliced cabbage
I agree completely. Reading about this system made me marvel at the salesmanship involved. You'd think anyone past high school would recognize such obvious pseudoscience, but I guess the saying about fools being born every minute is a great truism. People don't realize how rare hail damage is, statistically, and so they can be led to believe that systems like this work, when it's just very likely that hail hasn't fallen on that 100-acre plot of land in the last three years because, well, hail wasn't going to fall there in the first place.
Unless Nissan got a better deal, even the company's guarantee is worthless, viz.:
So, even if hundreds of acres of cars are hail-damaged while the system is in use (after the 20-minute warmup period), the company is only liable for the cost of the "hail suppression system", minus $5000! However, you have to pay, either directly or via a service contract, for an annual inspection to keep the 3-year warrranty in force--price undisclosed.
The only way this makes any economic sense for Nissan is if they got the system for free, so that the shyster company can use them as a showcase customer, for the publicity value. Even then, you'd think the public embarassment at being associated with such a scam would be intolerable.
The whole thing reminds me of the story about the guy jumping up and down in the middle of the street, blowing a whistle. Someone walks up and says,
"Why are you blowing the whistle?"
"To scare the elephants away."
"Elephants? There are no elephants around here!"
"See? It's working!"
it only pays off for small volume cars. The first generations of Renault Espace for instance were made of fiberglass, as the Alpines or Matras, but Espaces sells so well that now it is less expensive to manufacture them out of steel. Steel necessitates big investments in terms of presses, that's why europeans cars only change every 5 or 6 years, then the factories are sold to 2nd or 3rd world countries, but has better performance overall notwithstanding what you mention. Chassis tend to be made of aluminium to save weight in new BMWs, the bodywork is still made of steel.
Google passes Turing test : see my journal
Wouldn't a fucking roof be cheaper -- and more intelligent? They need to screw up local weather patterns as well? Have they done environmental studies for collateral effects?
Jesus.
========================================
Death will come, and will have your eyes
-- Pavese
Now if only they could make a cannon that could get rid of those pesky bike couriers who lean on your car.
Jets are closer to 200dB.
not quite: Jet engine at 3m : 140dB
Seems you're off by a factor 1 million.
Still, it seems pretty unlikely to affect, let alone damage, an aircraft.
Also, I doubt lightning is THAT loud. Where did you get that number?
Be wary of any facts that confirm your opinion.
Yeah, that web site looks pretty sketchy to me, not that I'm an expert. The photo you mentioned has a white area in the foreground---could be snow, could be hail---and a HUGE non-white area in the background. That is NOT a picture of a "small hail-free patch", surrounded by an area with hail. There is no hail or snow visible on the far side of the hail-free area. It does not seem possible from the picture on their website to verify that the white stuff is actually hail; it could be snow. The whole thing could be Photoshop.
Other pages on the site have:
* inconsistent information (every 5.5 seconds; every 6 seconds; every 5 seconds; the noise level is listed at various levels, too...)
* dubious statements like "supersonic explosions do not affect animals"
* incorrect spelling and punctuation
* overuse of jargon and jargon-y words (such as "ascending thermionic explosions"). Looking at this web site, I got the feeling that they did not want me to understand how it works, they just want me to be impressed.
* Worst of all: statistics! Why do they start the noise level measurements 50m away? Are you not supposed to go closer than 50m while it's operating? What if you install this on the roof of your car?
Of course, they don't have to explain their patented super-invention to me. But if they are going to deliberately withhold information, they could have been less patronizing about it! Overall, the site seems to have a very low level of professionalism. To whatever degree this reflects on the device itself, it reflects poorly.
zach
Daimler also have hail protection for their large car park of brand new Mercedes cars at Sindelfingen (by Stuttgart), but they don't use sonic booms. They have two Cessna pilots on standby, who will fly up and ionise the clouds or something like that, which stops the hail from forming. It seems to work well, too.
-- Steve
The fighter would probably appear to be a deep cave opening to a bat, rather than give the impression that the hangar is completely empty. They probably all flew into it at top speed expecting to find a great place to live.
"Hailstones are formed and begin with a piece of dust in the clouds," he explains. "There is a lot of activity going on, and what we do is to de-ionize that activity in the clouds and keep those dust particles from collecting moisture out of the clouds in turn reacting and forming what we know as a hailstone."
I'm a professor of meteorology. If one of my students had written that drivel I would have flunked 'em!
The microphysics of clouds is very complex. I'd really like to know what mechanism they really are trying to stifle here. Here is a bit on how hail forms. First, some background:
In a rapidly growing cumulonimbus (thunderstorm) cloud, you have a strong updraft (air rising rapidly). This air is contains humid air, which condenses to form liquid cloud droplets as it cools (rising air expands and cools - basic thermodynamics). It is indeed true that cloud droplets condense upon pieces of dust/salt/gunk in the atmosphere, but ionization has very very little to do with it. Many of these so-called condensation nuclei are not ionized. Water will condense upon just about anything if cooled enough.
Eventually this rising, cloudy air reaches heights where temperatures are well below freezing - say -20 degrees C. Water actually does not have to freeze when it is below 0 degrees C, and in fact what leads to lots of hail is the fact that there is an abundance of supercooled (below freezing liquid) cloud droplets in this cloud.
Eventually some ice crystals form, either spontaneously (supercooled cloud droplets freeze at about -40 degrees C - this is called homogeneous nucleation of ice), or because they come in contact with an ice nucleus (something that has a similar crystal structure to water ice). These ice crystals fall and co-mingle with the supercooled cloud droplets. Due to the difference in saturation vapor pressures over ice and water at a given temperature, these ice crystals grow and grow at the expense of the cloud droplets without actually making physical contact!
Now the stage is set for hail. There is an abundance of supercooled cloud droplets, which freeze upon contact with ice crystals. Contact is made, and graupel is formed. Graupel is kind of an intermediate form of ice between snow and hail. The updraft of the storm keeps everything going, and in fact can suspend heavy hail particles for a while before they either become so heavy they fall through the updraft, or they are tossed horizontally to a part of the storm where they fall to the ground. The largest hailstones form with the strongest updrafts because the hail can acrete lots and lots of supercooled water (hail will melt and refreeze also as it rises and falls within the cloud).
Again, I simply cannot fathom what process they are trying to stifle with these sound waves. Hail suppression research has focused mainly on seeding clouds with silver iodide. Silver iodide is a powdery substance which has an ice crystal shape very similar to that of water ice. Overseeding a cloud with AgI, so the theory goes, will convert all that supercooled cloud water into small ice crystals, scavenging all the liquid so there won't be any "lucky" graupel particles growing to the size of hail stones.
The Russians claimed some success with this process during the cold war (launching AgI laced rockets into clouds) but frankly I think they were overstating their success. Hail suppression work reached its peak in the 70's but because of the lack of any real statistical success, funding for this kind of work has pretty much dried up.
Anyway, a sucker is born every minute.
Leigh Orf
A squid eating dough in a polyethylene bag is fast and bulbous, got me?
This is not really that new. There is an apple orchard near my grandparents farm that has a sound cannon to prevent hail damage to the apples. I've seen it operate a couple of times. You can actually watch the sound waves ripple through the rain/hail in the sky. We use to always speculate whether or not it really works...apparently he thinks it does
The only real difference here is the application and the radar (the farmer would manually turn it on)
They are altering weather over a tiny area probably only 1/4 square mile, and only during hailstorms. And they aren't stopping the precipitation, they are only stopping the hailstone formation. I'd like to hear a single reason, other than noise polution, that this is bad.
If anything, this is good for the environment, as it reduces the number of cars destroyed every year by hail, therefore reducing needless manufacturing of replacement parts and reducing the amount ending up as scrap metal.
Besides, just because something 'happens for a reason' doesn't mean it's good for the environment. Meteors hit earth for a reason (their orbits cross earth's at a bad time), that doesn't mean they are a good thing. Hail isn't a good thing, it's not like nature 'evolved' hail to fill some need, it's just something that happens when you mix cold and thunderstorms.
The technology is solid and has been proven. The cost ratio is better to go with a sound generator.
Now, all we need is something to disrupt tornadoes...
Is it me, or does this thing sound like something the guys on Junkyard Wars or MythBusters would build?
*Junkyard Wars Mode*
Today's challenge is going to be all about Changin' the weather! We've assembled two teams of the finest... well, they do make cars and such... People on the planet to build:
A Hail Prevention/Detection device!
Our two teams have just 10 hours to build a device that can do something that mankind has been trying to do for centuries--do something about the weather, instead of just talking about it!
*MythBusters Mode*
Announcer: Tonight on Mythbusters... See if the old saying "I hope your face sticks like that" is entirely possible--using LN2! And later on, Adam and Jamie build something to deal with that pesky weather.
*** Later On ***
Adam: Jimmy--
Jimmy: Yes Adam?
Adam: Have you ever talked about the weather?
Jimmy: Yea, on a couple of my more 'memorable' dates...
Adam: well, wouldn't it be something if we could do something about the weather, instead of just talk about it?
Jimmy: It might be... who knows--I might have been to get into that guy--I mean, girl's pants if I could have stopped the sun from shining, so he couldn't have seen me...
Adam: I'm not talking about no namby-pamby rain here... I'm talking about HAILSTONES here, baby!
Jimmy: Oh god... not another Sonic-Cannon, Adam. We've built 35 of them already--and we've only been on the air for 20 episodes...
This is not a very good solution. It only protects cars in the devices' vicinity. But once you buy the car what's to protect it then? A real solution would be one that protected the car at all times. More resilient glass and body panels. And paint that can withstand hail strikes. I guess that car makers don't really care what happens once you've bought the car.
http://tinyurl.com/3t236
Even if this could work ( which I seriously doubt ), is there any thought given to the ramifications of messing with natural processes?
while *we* may have no use for them, they are part of nature, and do play a part in what goes on.
Once we start screwing with the 'way of things', we are just asking for troubles we cant even foresee as of yet.
And not I'm not a 'tree hugger', I just worry about the caviler attitude, ' well if we don't like it, today, we will just change nature to suit us'....
Just look at the great dustbowl in the Midwest US if you don't think our seemingly unimportant actions can have drastic effects decades later...
---- Booth was a patriot ----
I suppose this will drive neighborhood pooches nuts every time it fires up. This could be a Good Thing if you're not keen on dogs leaving liquid donations on your tires or fender during hailstorms.
;-)
I know! Let's dub the thing the 'W.C. Field(s) Generator!'
I think I'll go take my meds now...
Bruce Lane, KC7GR,
Blue Feather Technologies
Last year, Nissan incurred hail damage to tens of thousands of new vehicles waiting for transport outside of their plant in (I think) Tennessee. The entire inventory was auctioned off to dealers are rock bottom prices (even for wholesale). I would expect that the dealers fixed up the hail damage and subsequently sold the cars. However, it meant a loss of millions of dollars of revenue to Nissan USA.
This device is a small and worthwhile investment, even if there is only one hailstorm in the next decade.
I used to be a sonar operator.
This effect is known as cavitation - it occurs because of a drop in pressure causing sea water to boil at sea temperature in the low pressure parts of the sound wave. It also occurs in front of ship's propellers, and is one way for submarines to detect surface vessels ("popping" sounds). Our frigate's propellers started cavitating at about 12 knots' speed.
Submarines have propellers especially designed to avoid this, as their operation is based on stealth.
The sound pressure from an active sonar dome can exceed 200 db due to the high density of water, and can kill divers in the vicinity of the vessel. A fellow operator inadvertently turned on the sonar while in harbour, killed some fish (luckily no divers were in the water at the time), and was relocated instantly.
Are you a grammar Nazi? I'm trying to improve my English; please correct my errors!
Eric
[The subject line is a reference to the novel Atlas Shrugged by Ayn Rand, in which the U.S. government publicly announces the existence of the said machine, and all the wonderful benefits it will have, when in fact it is a weapon which can only cause destruction within the U.S.]
A huge (glass) greenhouse for growing hydroponic tomatos near me (central Nebraska) has one of those annoying things. Whenever conditions are favorable for hail, the thing goes off, sounds like someone shooting a large shotgun every five seconds, which goes on for hour after hour. I can't think of anything more annoying. Everybody in town hates the thing, and in fact some redneck types (We are in Nebraska after all) think it's great fun to shoot their (real) shotguns in the air when this is going on, as the greenhouse blasts provide great cover.
Perhaps metal shielding on a conveyor system to be pulled over would be much better to deal with. Maybe more expensive, but this is fucking ridiculous.
This is "cat-ions", i.e., ionized cats, not "cations". If you shoot millions of ionized cats into the stratosphere, it does prevent hail storms from forming (but you do have to contend with falling cats).
Disproving good hard science takes a bit longer. Not just because of the effort involved, but because of the inertia of supposedly rational scientific thinkers -- just ask Barry Marshall:
If this has been in use since the 1980s, and if it has prevented the formation of hail as it claims, then the evidence should be available for people to see. And if that evidence shows that it does, in fact, prevent hail formation, then there's obviously something working.
Given the number of years this has been in service in New Zealand and the like, it should be possible to find evidence of it working or not working -- through the absence or presence of hail in the general region where the device is used, along with the absence or presence of hail in the local area immediately near where the device is (with some accounting for the effect of wind blowing hail one way or the other).
Not all things that work in ways that science doesn't understand are pseudoscience, and not all commonly-accepted scientific principles are not. The "hard" part of hard science is where we constantly re-evaluate our own view of how things work.
In short, give this a chance. I can understand people being fooled in the short run, but since people have used things like this since the 80's, they must keep using 'em for some reason. Maybe they don't work and the folks just want to get their money's worth! But until you go to the source of the data and examine it critically, how can you know, regardless of how good your understanding of current science is?