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EU Rejects Microsoft Settlement Proposal
Karl Cocknozzle writes "European Union antitrust officials have dismissed as insufficient Microsoft's offer to settle their most recent antitrust problem in Europe. Spokespeople for the European Commission and Microsoft declined to comment on a report in today's Financial Times that Microsoft had offered to include rival media player software from Apple and Real Networks on a CD-ROM packaged with personal computers to help resolve the case. Previously, the EU had demanded that Microsoft either unbundle Windows Media Player, or also bundle rival media players with Windows. It appears that Microsoft might get more than a slap on the wrist this time around."
Happy Trails!
Erick
http://www.busyweather.com/
It appears that Microsoft might get more than a slap on the wrist this time around.
It's got to. If the risk of breaking the law and getting caught is not substantially worse than the negative consequences of acting lawfully, then rationally, there is no reason to follow the law. That is what MS has done for years. And if the trend continues, they would be smart to continue doing just that.
I beleive the EU may have this in mind as part of the reasoning for sticking it to them a little harder this time.
Slashdot Syndrome: the sudden, extreme urge to correct someone in order to validate one's self.
" I hope the EU also forces Apple to bundle Real with MacOSX as well..."
Don't do that. No one should be forced to have Real on their system. Don't punish the users.
Evolution or ID?
i would make mr gates walk from normandy to rome giving out cd's with slackware to everyone he sees telling him how sorry he is and how much France can kick his ass...
xao
http://TheHillforum.hopto.org
Now, I'm no Microsoft fanboy, but I really don't see what the big deal is with Windows Media Player. Like somebody pointed out (Monkeyboy Ballmer IIRC), Windows has shipped with a Media Player since Windows 3.1 at least, and nobody's complained about illegal bundling.
...
Of course, what they might be doing (although I haven't been able to find any reputable sources for this) is disallowing OEMs to pre-install, say, Quicktime and Realplayer on the systems they sell. If indeed they're doing this, that is (imnsho) abusing their monopoly, and they should be forced to allow OEMs and others to pre-install whatever software they want.
But to require them to bundle Quicktime/Realplayer/whatever with Windows? That seems wrong on so many levels
Dlugar
Computer Go: Writing Software to Play the Ancient Game of Go
I hope the EU also forces Apple to bundle Real with MacOSX as well...
The EU has not deemed that Apple has monopoly; Microsoft does.
Are you saying that it's more 'fair' that the same rules should apply to a minor competitor as to a monopoly actor?
Because it's certainly not fair if you feel monopolies are bad.
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The simple concept of why a monopoly is treated differently has left some brains in their virginal state.
Most be a calcium overdose....
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
There is some logic in the US going easy on Microsoft. They aren't nearly as impartial. Microsoft contribute greatly to the US economy, providing jobs, and significant cash/balace of trade inflows.
The EU is impartial, as they doen't receive similar benefits. The end result will be closer to what the US result should have been, but wasn't, unless Massachusetts prevails.
Apple has never strong-armed its vendors into bundling quicktime and forced them to drop competing products... Because Apple doesn't have any vendors selling OS X systems.
Apple is very friendly towards Real, and Real Player. A little less so since RealPlayer started playing quicktime on the PC (that pisses Apple off... a LOT), but they're still civil about it, and Apple knows that people want RealPlayer for OS X.
There was never any attempt to block the product from working with the OS (quite the contrary, we got lots of help making it work w/ the OS, and even got some time @ Macworld to show it off. I worked @ Real on the product) I don't think Apple has any kind of obligation to include the player, given their position in the market, vs. MS's
My sig is blank, I typed this by hand.
Microsoft had offered to include rival media player software on a CD-ROM packaged with personal computers to help resolve the case.
Who decides which (presumably free) media players go on the CDROM then? Is it just RealPlayer and 1 or 2 others (the major ones) or can anybody get in, i.e. Mplayer and other lesser known media players? And surely Microsoft's own WMP would have stayed the one installed by default, effectively nulling the advantage of having other alternatives available on the CD.
No really, that was obviously a trick to fool the EU antitrust commision. I'm glad they saw through Microsoft's "good will" proposals, unlike their US counterparts.
"A door is what a dog is perpetually on the wrong side of" - Ogden Nash
Let's hope that Microsoft won't be able to buy its way out like it did in the US.
Seriously, I'd like to see Europe calm down Microsoft. Let's them compete on pure merits, and stop quashing competition. One can only hope that in a few years, you will be able to choose between different OS, without locking oneself out of a lot of content.
I know that some alternatives start to emerge, and that you can now play a lot of videos on Linux, but the Microsoft lockin is still very strong.
Europe slapping Microsoft could mean more money from investors in rivals, thus leading in acceleration of competition's offerings.
A good thing, IMO.
However, even if they are told to remove their media player, it will most likely be how you can "remove" MS Messenger. Hell, last time I reformated and uninstalled MS Messenger it didn't even delete the icon which as far as I can tell, is all it is supposed to do.
Windows comes installed with Notepad, so now Windows comes installed with Notepad, EditPlus and UltraEdit. (even though they are better than notepad) Windows comes installed with MS Paint so can I get Photoshop installed with Windows.
Real is much much worse than even Microsoft. They resembly hackers more than a real software company, and virtualy take over machines they are installed on. Lets get some real competition based upon standards, like MPG, HTML, and not the crap that all tech companies put out that changes ever 3 months. This is the 90's failed way of doing things, build roads, not silicon valley failure.
I hate MS as much as the next guy because of their hideous record when it comes to competition and quality, but since when is bundling QT and RealPlayer seen as a solution to their monopoly? I mean, I want RealPlayer AND WMP both OFF my computer, and not be forced to suffer both of them!
A real solution would be to ship completely without the media player and any DLLs relating to it, and make people download it, or allow OEMs to install a competing player if they so wish. Same should be done for IE. I know that both are buried deep into the system, but it's their problem, not mine.
Additionally, they should be required to disclose their audio and video formats. If they are truly a part of the system, then this information is needed for interoperability. Let's hope we get open file formats, and not RealPlayer rubbish being forced down our throats in addition to WMP!
Will they stick to the punishment. So many things don't these days. I caused a car accident totally not only my car but the other guys car out. It was ugly and obviously totaled. I got a ticket but I ended up with no opints and $145 USD in fines. That's it. My car was totally covered so I just got a new one and went on my merry way. Kids in schools are not even taught punishment anymore. They are taught to have their energy redirected. Will they be able to hold to a punishment??? I hope so but have major doubts.
Evolution or ID?
I can understand where Bill Gates et. al. are coming from. Most people who use Windows are not very proficient at using various media players. They want to be able to click on a link and automatically have it work AND have it be consistent. Out-of-the-box functionality is what Microsoft is trying to achieve, especially for all of the regular users out there.
As far as Microsoft is concerned, those who need Real/QT can just download it from their respective sites.
I think where Microsoft should really have been hit hard was with the whole IE/Netscape saga. With that, it wasn't simply a matter of not packaging Netscape with Windows, it was a matter of Microsoft's systematic attempt to destroy Netscape as a rival browser.
Ah well, just my 2 cents. And yes, I use Windows at work, but I'm a *BSD guy everywhere else.
... to control the future media distribution standard, and impose a 'Microsoft tax' similar to that they have on PCs today. Its importance to them cannot be overestimated, and they will fight tooth and nail to maintain its position. Robert X Cringely has a very interesting article on Microsoft's media strategy in his ongoing coverage of Burst.com's patent-infingement suit against MS/WMA.
"YOU AGREE TO BE
BOUND BY THE TERMS OF THIS EULA BY
INSTALLING, COPYING, OR OTHERWISE USING THE
PRODUCT. IF YOU DO NOT AGREE, DO NOT INSTALL
OR USE THE PRODUCT; YOU MAY RETURN IT TO YOUR
PLACE OF PURCHASE FOR A FULL REFUND."
THAT is in the licensing agreement of Windows. Just for fun and to create a lot of headaches, go to your nearest retailer and tell them to take $200.00 off of the price of a computer you want and to delete windows from the hard drive because you do not agree with the terms of the license. They will jump up and down and say lots of funny things. They will tell you that "we cannot do that". Tell them that they are bound by the license agreement the same as you. Then after they are finished throwing their pop-eyed double-barrelled hissy fit, tell them that you decided that you can spend your $2K elsewhere and that they just lost a sale! It's fun, try it sometime.
It's about how tightly they are integrated into the OS. Come on, they can bundle all the software they want. You can't tell them what to put in their own product. However, the thing that bothers me is that they integrate Internet Explorer, Media Player, Outlook, and all their other crap into Windows and make it hard for other programs to achive the same level of integration. For example, in Windows XP Media Player is integrated into IE. Outlook is integrated into the user account. Outlook is speciallized for hotmail.
I get the distinct impression the EU is out to make an example of them and fine them ridiculously.
Yes, you are probably right. The EU probably wants to make some kind of a political statement to corporate America, and show that *they* won't be bribed.
But, Microsoft probably deserves to be smacked anyway, they got away with it once, and I'd be rather disappointed to see them get away with it again.
"A door is what a dog is perpetually on the wrong side of" - Ogden Nash
Unfortunately, I have little faith in the EU to actually successfully force the issue here. As one reader already commented, any restrictions imposed will almost surely never see light in the US.
Far be it from our own congressional leaders or regulators to take any inspiration from a EU success, but that is a separate tangent.
It is my opinion that Microsoft has the monopoly they have at the behest of the consumer market which continues to support their products with dollars or euros in this case. Dollars have always spoken louder than votes, and until a viable competitor arises any regulation/restrictions/bundling/unbundling current or future will be seen as nothing more than a minor set back for Microsoft, not a solution.
The recent success introducing Linux (or any other alternative) definitely suggests that such a thing is not the barrier, rather it is the mind set. It was "marketing", t-shirts and stupid stuff penguins. And it will take something similar, if more tangible to convince CEOs and CTOs that there is a viable alternative to windows. It is rather ironic that they complain with one handand then buy 100K in licenses with the other. It is the responsibility of the entrenched IT community to instigate change where such change is economically viable. This is not a principal issue, but an economic one and the ultimately, the best solution to the problem will win if presented correctly on a case by case basis.
Of course, this all circles back to my original point. Unless, the mind set of the consume is altered (ideally in the work place where I find most of the user trends are set), then and only then will the "monopoly" be broken. Any attempt to regulate/bundle/unbundle Windows and its products will fail so long as the dollar/euro votes continue to pour in.
Just my 2 cents.
Buy the computer, and then return it, because you don't agree with the EULA (that you couldn't even read).
I say screw it. Whats happened happened. If Microsoft is bad they will fail all by themselves. They don't need the rule of laws help.
/. users, Microsoft has in fact played their cards right in a lot of ways. It is not random chance that they're one of the largest, most powerful companies on the planet. On the contrary, it's very deliberate. I'd suggest doing some reading on the things they've done in the past. There's a lot of history in that company and many, many examples of behavior that a) was successful, and b) probably could have been curbed by a slightly less wimpy legal system.
Actually, they do need laws to help, because they have amassed a disproportionately large amount of power and without laws they will literally be able to do whatever they choose. This isn't a question of being a Microsoft fan or not, this is a question of a single company having enormous power and reach, and without laws that company can do (and has already done, even with laws, because they are always able to manipulate the circumstances in their favor) things that are unfair to other companies.
I'm no Microsoft fan either, but I stand in complete awe of their ability to succeed, regardless of the circumstances. Despite doing many things "wrong" according to
So, now M$ has claimed that their Media player is an intregral part of windows and windows would be "substandard" without it?
Interesting argument, much akin to the argument they used about IE.
Now, let's ask a hypothetical question. If this were about automobiles, and the question was about whether or not the manufacturer could force a person to use ONLY the built-in radio what would be the argument?
"Well, judge, if we had to remove the radio, we would also have to remove all the stuff it uses, like the wiring, the alternator and the battery, so the car wouldn't run. So, you see, the radio is an integral part of the car and forcing us to remove it and letting people use someone else's radio would cripple the car."
Absurd? Well, that's exactly what they said about their browser and are now saying about the media player.
This is utterly ridiculous. Microsoft got where they were because of the law. If they can ignore the law now, why shouldn't I? Without law, let's see... someone could go raid their campuses, steal their hardware, take their softwareware, kill their employees, and destroy them with a physical assault. But no: there is law, and law enforcement, to prohibit this, and allow Microsoft and other companies to flourish.
There is other law, and law enforcement, to prevent Microsoft (and other companies) from doing bad things, too. That's we're seeing right now, and for the most part, it's unfortunately weak.
Some laws are stupid, and need changed (DMCA, USA PATRIOT, etc), but for the most part, society is the scale, and law is the balance. Without law, there would be no society, and without good law, and enforcement of the law, the balance will tip.
Don't think of it as a flame---it's more like an argument that does 3d6 fire damage
The OEMs would be free to ship with no operating system, but would probably want to ship *something*, so they may choose a Linux desktop. If Be were still around, this might have changed their fate, or perhaps Apple might choose to release OS X for x86.
A variant would be to prohibit site licenses or other volume discounts for Windows.
In exchange, Microsoft can "innovate" all they want, if that's truly what they think they're doing.
Which is secret APIs, codecs and file formats.
Open these up and Microsoft could bundle any damned thing they want and not be able to effectively leverage their monopoly status.
Bundling competing super secret (and often viral) formulas only compounds the issue, not relieve it.
Free standards means free competition.
KFG
In Windows 3.1, there was no Windows Media format, and there certainly was no DRM. The player isn't the problem, it is Microsoft's ability to leverage their marketshare to push out open multimedia formats in favor of their own.
Now you can argue that there will always be alternatives, but the company with the huge advantage in the Operating System marketshare should not be able to use that monopoly power to kill competition in other areas such as multimedia. Remember, it isn't illegal to be a monopoly, it is illegal to abuse that monopoly power. Which Microsoft has done, and continues to do.
My beliefs do not require that you agree with them.
You clearly do not understand what a monopoly is and isn't. Don't feel bad, as neither does a substantial portion of the /. crowd.
:
This is absolutely nothing like your example with BMW. To correct your analogy, the Microsoft BMW would
1) Enforce strict legalities on BMW dealers that they are not allowed to switch out the radios. Doing so can lose them their rights to deal in BMW products.
2) Design their engine so that if you removed the radio & replaced it with another, the engine would no longer start.
3) If a 3rd-party radio manufacturer finds a way around point 2, include legalities with your car's "license" (owner's manual/lease papers) that replacing the radio, even if it works, nulls and voids any manufacturer's warranty on the car.
4) Since no radio manufacturer is going to produce radios for that line of BMW because of 1-3, perhaps an end-user will attempt that. Assuming they are intelligent enough to bypass point 2, and careless enough to ignore point 3, BMW would not release technical specifications for how the radio actually plugs into the car's wiring system. In fact, they would intentionally make the wiring as confusing as possible, so that you have little chance of creating a radio that works as well as the factory radio.
I don't mean to start a flame war either. I'm just tired of hearing poor analogies like these that only indicate a lack of understanding of what a monopoly actually is.
Finally, let me point out that most countries agree that monopolies are perfectly ok, as long as you don't illegally use your fortunate market standing to maintain your monopoly.
On the other hand, nothing prevents you from removing iTunes or iPhoto, or even QuickTime from MacOS, on top of the obvious fact that Apple is not a monopoly and therefore inherently abides by different rules.
Good riddance! Unfortunately, I don't think microsoft would actually abandon the largest market in the world.
I am totally against ethically dubious practices to achieve a monopoly. But I don't consider "bundling" anti competitive behavior. This is just another example of the EU over regulating.
That's funny, cause that was exactly the reason for US DoJ anti-trust case against microsoft: ms leveraged monopoly in one market (desktop OS) to gain monopoly in another (web browsers). It was web browsers then, it's media players now. Microsoft was found guilty, and, as a punishment, was required to primise not to do it again.
Why aren't they suing BMW for including radios in their automobiles?? After all, it is a "value added" additional component. It's not a car.
Is BMW a monopoly? Are they trying to "cut off the air supply" to a competing radio manufacturer?
I don't mean to start a flame war, but isn't this Microsoft Monopoly crap getting a little old?
Yeah, cause we all know that if we just stop saying that then microsoft will not be a monopoly any more! I mean DoJ seems to think so...
There are countless examples (especially in the computer industry) of companies that seemed like monopolies (IBM for example) that were devastated overnight when a superior idea entered the market place.
You mean like the way mozilla took over IE's market share as soon as it was released? Oh wait... Let me spell this out for you: you cannot compete with a monopolist on the basis of better products that compete in the same market. That is why we have the rules to restrict abuse of monopoly.
BTW, the only reason IBM lost the market power it had is that the market became (mostly) irrelevant. IBM still has monopoly in mainframes (which is what they were sued for), but mainframes are disappearing. It has absolutely nothing to do with building a better product.
___
If you think big enough, you'll never have to do it.
At least according to American (and apparently European) courts. Microsoft is, in fact, a monopoly.
On a side note. When a monopoly is leveraged it starts affecting other markets, not just the one it currently occupies. Revenues from the Microsoft OS let them loose money everywhere else to stifle competition. Which is why hinging on single issues with a monopoly won't have a detrimental affect to it's continued status as such.
What the chairman of Microsoft believes or doesn't is irrelevant, as the actions of the corporation as a whole are in question.
You're reading Slashdot. Of course you like Linux and pc hardware
Mac OS X 10.3 allows you to opt to not install iTunes, iPhoto, iMovie, iCal,... if you don't want to. This can be selected in the install screen of Mac OS X (use custom install). My mac at work has no i-stuff installed except iCal and iSync. And a mac is delivered without any OS installed (there is just one large empty partition). The box contains two CD sets: one disk image containing everything and regular install CD's.
I hate Windows Messenger. I hate the damn sticky key feature. I hate most of the accessories. Now, WMP ain't so bad, but BSPlayer is what *I* need. Did I mention ActiveX? Damn, I learned to hate IE... but, of course, is needed to patch Windows. MSN explorer? You keep it!
But, of course, to uninstall some of those you need to sell your first born male child... and the others (hint: IE) are just plain uninstalable.
You know what? It's an operating system. Bane EVERYTHING that's not using and following open protocols. TCP/IP? open - leave it. Outlook Express that connects to hotmail? Proprietary - erase it. IE? kind of uses open protocols, but we know it's not following standards. Bane it, or force them to change it. Oh, they want proprietary stuff? Ok, no prob, but not in the OS I paid for.
And, BTW, a ssh client would be nice, not to mention the daemon... I mean server.
Bite my shiny metal... oops... Nevermind!
I hear people complaining that Netscape and other products died because of the free market. Well they are partially right. Netscape was a pay for product. Along comes Microsoft and releases a free product that at the time was inferior to Netscape (still is IMHO) and gives it away free and then bundles it with their OS.
This may be fine for some people until Microsoft large feet step on you. Stacker was a good example, Stacker was making money hand over fist until MS released "their" version as a part of DOS. Stacker was no longer needed and sales dropped dramatically. Turns out that MS used Stackers own code and were too lazy to even change part of it to keep Stacker from finding out. Thanks to its deep pockets MS dodged the bullet and paid them off...Stacker died.
If you ran a bakery and I opened one next to you and gave everything away for free you would pitch a fit and try to have me closed down. If I copied your best seller by letting you do the ground work and then gave it away for free you would sue me. The customers could care less they get it for free but when your money is on the line it is a different story.
I hope the EU sticks to its guns. MS has had this coming for a while and it is nice to see that they can't buy their way out of every problem they make.
That's true, but there's no technical reason Gecko couldn't support the same HTML-based help format, and thus no technical reason a component installed with the Mozilla suite couldn't offer the same interface to other applications as the IE-based one, with all the attendant improvements in standards compliance, reliability and flexibility that would come with that.
The user interfaces may be only 1/10 of the issue, but that doesn't mean you couldn't replace the other 9/10 with something superior as well. Microsoft simply chooses to structure their OS and its included services in such a way that it's not easy, and to withhold information that would make it easy.
If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
The problem is with each version of MS Windows comes a whole new set of applets that intrude on an existing market. Since MS gives them away for free the other players go out of business. This kills diversity: consumers who usually drive the market are shut out of the process and then MS moves on to dominate another market. With out any other forces at work M$FT would own the entire computer: the DOJ acting as a minor speed bump. M$FT would be in a position then to control all how you use your media and control who can sell it and who can buy it and dictate its onw profits. M$FT has managed to become both autocracy and parasite.
As I see it, even if M$ were forced to remove WMP from the install CD, it would be listed as a 'Critical update' when you went to Windows Update. I recently did a clean install of Windows and WMP 9.1 was included as a critical update. Anyone common user would automatically install it.
How does that really help the situation?