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Tech Training Schools Going Bust
superflippy writes "The Associated Press reports that many tech training schools which opened during the last few years are now shutting their doors. During the dot-com boom, there was the perception that a few months of computer training could lead to a fabulous job. Now, it seems all these schools have produced are unemployed people with student loans and dubious certifications."
Outsourcing to India
Cheap College Grads (Although there are too many here also)
Experienced (more expensive) College Grads
And *maybe* a few scraps left over grads of these half ass tech schools
There is still definitely a place for a few of these schools for people wanting to add a skill or become more advanced in a skill, but the days of taking an 8 week course and then finding a tech job are over. I actually know a couple of people that went to these type schools 5 years ago and now have great tech jobs.
at least they are unemployed with only a few months worth of student loans.
seems downright enviable from my position with four years worth of loans.
lysergically yours
Funny, that doesn't seem to stop them from running ads that say "40,000 new IT jobs are opening up every year! Train now for a rewarding career!"
"Freedom means freedom for everybody" -- Dick Cheney
They shood do what I did and go to an acredited scholl like the University of Pheonix. Online.
During the dot-com boom, there was the perception that a few months of computer training could lead to a fabulous job.
Perception? How soon we forget - that actually happened. It happened all over silicon valley.
We'll have another unsustainable tech boom as soon as everyone forgets those mistakes entirely.
I am a professional HTML software developer with good working knowledge of Microsoft FrontPage 2000, Microsoft FrontPage 2002, Microsoft FrontPage 2003 and HomeSite. Extensive experience with back-end server management via Microsoft Web Publishing Wizard. I am looking roughly for $80-90K (plus sign-on bonus and relocation), but I can tell you the job field is not that great. I think I should learn PHP and wait for things to pick up. Can anyone recommend good PHP classes under-$5,000 range?
Now, it seems all these schools have produced are unemployed people with student loans and dubious certifications.
;)
So, kind of like Microsoft?
[rimshot!]
Thanks, I'm here all week!
I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser gate.
1. Kid goes through course
2. Kid does well, but doesn't really learn
3. Kid gets job $63,000/year
4. Kid has no idea what to do, but was able to talk his shit up.
5. Kid goes to teacher and begs him to help
6. Company pays teacher to do kids job $15,000
Cost to company $75,000
I know of this personally. Pretty annoying if you ask me. The kid actually still has his job too.
A friend of a friend asked me to help him with a final project for one of his classes at ITT Tech. This was a project in ASP for an online bookstore. He was nearing completion of his associates degree in Web Design, and when I got there to show him things, he knew nothing at all. Not even HTML... When I asked him about that, he said he "sorta learned it a while ago". Last I checked, HTML was the staple of Web Development, no? All of his pages that he had made so far were all autogenerated by FrontPage. Goes to show you what good a $30,000 2-year associates degree at ITT Tech is worth.....or rather worthless.
How could I say to men: "Speak louder, shout! For I am deaf!"? -Ludwig van Beethoven
Well, no, I'm not really shocked :)
Disclaimer: several bachelor's and master's degrees work for me, as well as several no-degree people with strong skills, but as far as I know, no "certificates", which is the way I like it.
Crispin
----
Crispin Cowan, Ph.D.
CTO, Immunix Inc.
These schools churned out tons of useless "educated" people with little added value from their educational experience. The only purpose that these institutions had was to dilute the talent within the IT and computer engineering fields. I say good riddance!
I spent 10 months at "The Chubb Institute" gaining a certificate in Network and System Security. During the 10 months, we started with basic A+ cert type information, and worked our way up through Linux and MS ISA Server... none of each in enough detail to actually get a job done.
In fact, we spent 1 week learning Redhat where we installed the OS, Installed Samba, and FTP.
Then we spent 4 weeks (5 hours a day 5 days a week) learning how to write resumes and interview.
Somehow I feel like Linux is more important then what color my suit is for the interview. (blue vs. grey)
Lastly, they promised "Job Placement" - however, the only calls that the Graduating Security Class received were helpdesk positions.
My question is... if the Network Security class... the most esteemed program at the Chubb Institute is getting calls for Helpdesk positions... what positions are the helpdesk classes getting?
Janitorial?
I mean seriously - I was a director-level IT manager at two multi-national companies over the past 12 years, and neither I, nor any of my peers, would even think about hiring someone from one of these tech schools.
Even the smallest amount of real-world experience was far more useful than several months of training at these schools. Sure, they learned a few rote solutions, but I can teach those to a new recruit who shows a bit of intelligence in a short time.
In fact, for an entry-level position, give me a liberal arts grad with a bit of tech knowledge learned on their home computer, and I've got the makings of an excellent eomployee. People who can read, write and converse are better candiates than many of the "tech school" grads I ran into.
Frankly, I never felt these schools were worth anything, and if they are now closing, all the better.
Speaking of the original dubious certification, a 8-year old just got certified as an MCSE.
This is from an Air-Force perspective, so think what you will:
The military is based around taking people who know very little and teaching via tech schools. We do quite well. We can take someone with virtually no computer knowledge and turn them into a basic sysadmin in about 6 months. Within 2 years, the cream will rise and those are quite impressive. Of the rest, some will transfer to administrative (paperwork) jobs and be promoted. Others will get out and become a burden to AT&T or WorldCom. But the system DOES work.
The main difference between the military and the commercial world is that we actually care about our people. Where your company provides very little in the way of mentorship, I will nurture my people till they find their sweet spot. Some will learn from books I reccomend, others from college I allow them to attend during working hours. More still will need me to hold their hands and walk them through tasks until they catch on.
Most civilians see coworkers (you call them cow-orkers) as competition. That's why a lot of good sysadmins will never develop after their civilian tech schools.
You and your company may see on-the-job training as a waste. Well, you are missing out on a lot of good people. Instead of a college grad demanding $50k+, you could look to the sub-$20k market of tech-school grads. Give them some training. Promote those who deserve it, fire those who screw up.
I'd rather you do it wrong, than for me to have to do it at all.
Finally I'm starting to see some justice! I have 18 years experience but have been out of work due to all the outsourcing and dumping of jobs overseas for the last 10 months. Nothing has ticked me off more than seeing so called private schools like ECPI and others advertising in the paper for IT and Cert courses. They advertise like there is a shortage for jobs, that they cant fill them fast enough... when all they have done is dumped untrained memorizers on the market and created a glut of available personnel. And if a business or HR department doesn't know better, the fancy paper gets these really untrained workers the jobs at cheap salaries (because they have to pay those 30K college course fees) I wish they all would shut down and go back to just being Testing centers like back in the Drake days... or am I showing my age again.
In my experience the better tech people are the ones that grew up playing with the stuff as a hobby, not the ones who heard that there are money/jobs available in the field and then sign up at a tech school. I'm not going to cry for the tech schools. Go get a CS degree instead.
We're a start up anticipating developing a product and being bought out by Cisco, Microsoft, HP or someone else with deep pockets. We offer your choice of stock options by the roll: White Cloud or Charmin.
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
The downward spiral of recent years, beyond anyone's direct control: 1) The economy going to hell 2) The resulting layoffs 3) People with years of experience competing for entry level jobs 4) A lack of entry level jobs (why hire someone fresh out of school when you can hire a former sysadmin for Dell tech support?) 5) Companies not paying nearly enough as they used to for tech positions This is not the schools' fault. A previous poster used the term 'dubious certs,' and this is completely accurate. The problem however is not the curriculum, it is the way the students study. When I attended a comp training school a couple years ago, I cannot tell you how many students used mcsebraindumps.com and other sites where they can get test questions. The percentage was huge. As a result, these people just memorized answers and did not know how to apply anything they learned (if they did at all) to real world situations. When they got out into the real world, they broke more than they fixed. As a result, companies now view these certifications with a skeptical eye. Sure, you passed the test - but what do you really know? Prove to me you can make it - but how do you get the shot if a sysadmin with ten years of experience wants that tech support job too? Answer: you don't. These schools have tried to hide this and have been largely successful, but the truth is finally coming out.
Passion for the work doesn't come out of a crackerjack box. An MCSE or any "Certification" from a vendor, is just a manufacturers way of saying you have digested their propaganda. If you are looking to get rich quick while only working a few hours a week try No money down real estate.
It should come as no surprise that the people who went for these courses are now getting burned. The schools were unscrupulous but then again so were the majority of their students. Both parties were trying to sell sows ears as silk purses.
I am both self-taught and self-employed, and I have never once had a client ask me about my college degree (I don't have one, by choice), certifications, grades, diplomas, or anything else related.
When I managed a computer store and someone came in who was A+ certified, it was almost a strike against them. I found repeatedly that the technicians that were self-taught were far better at maintaining their skills in a rapidly changing environment.
I place zero value in any of these certifications.
It also has very good advice for becoming an accomplished programmer.
This makes me think of something a co-worker once talked about. This man, a native of India who is a highly skilled and extremely competent consultant, talked about how great the schools in India were. He insinuated that the tech schools in India focused on "real" tech education and didn't waste their time on courses like Philosophy, Religion, Sociology, etc.
I disagree with that. The best tech workers I know, don't just program, they know how to "think". Personally, I believe someone from a reputable college, where they were forced to take a few Russian History courses, is worth much, much more than someone that has only learned how to code C++.
As silly as my European Film course was in Undergrad, I think it helped me think beyond Java.
It was interesting to watch as other post secondary institutes and even other departments at our institute jumped on the IT bandwagon. When I left the program in 2001, our institute was graduating close to 500 IT grads/year, not to mention the local University and College graduating an equal amount. Then there were the private schools were pumping out MSCEs and CNEs and now Cisco engineers.
The fact is that the market is saturated and the gravy train is over. Our school is hurting because we receive funding from the provincial government based on graduate's employment placement rate (for example: 93% employed after 6 months in their field of study). For the first time in 10 years, I've noticed that the placement rate description has changed from 6 months to 1 year and they've dropped the reference to "field of study" from the statistics. The IT programs are really hurting for enrollment also. People are wising up to the fact that it is difficult to get a job in IT with just a piece of paper.
University of California Berkeley. I can introduce you to her, but if she finds out I posted this she'll completely kill me. :)
I just defined AC
"Sorry to burst your bubble, but certs mean little nowadays. People on the NANOG list, SF lists, IPSlists they all argue this. Companies who hire strictly on certs should be ashamed of themselves"
You're turning this into a black and white issue.
The first part of your statement is that certs are essentially useless. The second part of the statement is that the consensus is that people who hire based ONLY on certs are foolish. The second statement does NOT support the first!
It supports the statement "Certs are not, on their own, a good measure of someone's capabilities" which seems a fair statement to me. But to jump from their to "Certs are toiletpaper" seems pretty silly.
Note that this is coming from someone with a degree and no certs, with no real personal interest in defending them.
Oops....
The darkness... controls the music. The music... controls the soul.
There's a big difference between people who can for example, set up any kind of network, or know how to program in C++ well. And people who can really think on their own, learn new things because the really "want" to learn, and don't just follow orders. What you get from a 4 year university is that they're supposed to make and encourage you to think. That's why you had to take those history, art, writing, etc courses that may not be "programming" courses. Just a couple days ago there was an article on slashdot about linguistics and programming. ok I"m rambling but you get my point...maybe not.
I don't mean to pick on this one person, I know too many times I see the same stuff over and over, and wonder how the hell could companies hire clueless people. I remember I worked for a company who if you sent a resume in with your newly acquired MSCE cert staus you met Mr. Shredder.
What gave you the impression that the guy you singled out was misrepresenting himself as some sort of uber-geek, as you make yourself out to be?
From what I can tell the only things you can ascertain from his email are that he works at a company (ok), and doesn't understand how some aspects of the system he's using work.
So? Shredding someone's resume because they got an MCSE is pretty ignorant I might add anyway. Why not shred it if they have a Mexican sounding name, after all.. are Mexicans known for their outstanding tech skills? It would be equally asinine. I know plenty of people who have MCSE's and countless other certs who did it just based on the thinking that "Hey, it's probably better than not having them."
This elitist attitude is pretty sickening. And it usually comes from people who themselves don't have any experience working in a large tech company. Sort of like the armchair quarterbacks shouting things like "Oh man, I could do that! Geez, this guy doesn't know anything." But not stepping up to do it themselves.
And by the way, I don't have an MCSE, or any real certifications for that matter. I don't even have a high school diploma, and that's never kept me out of work.
He had passed the 4 (?) core exams for the win2k mcse. A jobs program had put him through a boot camp. When he got to me, I asked him to bring up the control panel.
Deer in headlights.
Ok. Hit the start button and go to control panel.
More bambi.
O.k....lower left corner. Left-click...
I am not making this up. It's possible the guy went into cranial vapor lock under pressure, but even in brainlock you should be able to find the control panel. Or at least the start button.
Nice guy, good attitude, might be some aptitude, but the thought that he was going to get hired as an admin somewhere after his internship was weird.
Count me among the MCSE-shredders.
I have observed a strong correlation between trumpeting MCSE and being a totally ignorant useless waste of skin, at least at the keyboard.
I have not observed that same correlation with Mexican last names (e.g., de Icaza).
YMMV. There is no need to remind me that there are exceptions; I believe you. When I have 1000 resumes to sift through, a quick filter like that is helpful. No way all 1000 are going to get a full read.
"Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it." -- GBS