Just What is a Custom Configured Server?

djhanson wonders: "I just got back from a small claims court proceeding against Apple Computer. They successfully won their argument in front of the court that selecting additional memory and disk drives for a computer/server at the time of purchase, off of their website, constitutes a 'custom configured computer built to the customer's specifications'. Said computer is therefore not eligible under the company policy to be returned. Has anyone else heard of such a thing? As near as I can tell, Apple is the only company that has such a restrictive policy. I called both IBM and HP, and neither of those companies has such a policy. Am I the only one that thinks there is something terribly wrong with a policy like this? Any opinions? Suggestions? Comments? Whatever?"

Comments

complicated

[Anonymous Coward]

on the (limited) information you've given it does seem a little unfair to you though, technically, the judgement was correct. You configured the machine, you are a customer, therefore it is a customer configured machine.

There should be a warning on their site when you do configure the machine yourself that you won't be able to do certain things.

an interesting point would be, what if you used the same customer configuration system to add in say some extra software or another battery for a laptop?

Re:complicated

[wacko1138]

Actually, they have a link at the bottom of their store page labelled Sales and Refunds.

On that page it says:

"RETURN & REFUND POLICY
If you are not satisfied with your Apple purchase of a pre-built product, please call 1-800-676-2775 for a Return Material Authorization (RMA) request within 10 business days of the receipt of the product."

And a little further down:

"Please note that Apple does not permit the return of or offer refunds for the following products:

1. Product that is custom configured to your specifications"

I do think it's a bass-ackwards policy, but it's all there on the site. May not be fun, but always a good idea to read the fine print (especially before laying out the sort of money Apple wants).

Re:complicated

[hool5400]

That text is for "if you are not satisfied".

The poster doesn't mention whether the return is because of an unfit product, or just changed his mind.

I suspect the latter, and you can see Apple's point. He gets it and doesn't like it, sends it back, and they have to pull out the RAM, extra HDs - a giant pain in the arse. Why should they?

If it was broken on the other hand and they refuse to take it back, I'd have an issue, but I'm sure there are consumer laws in the US to protect the consumer from manufacturers selling unfit goods.

Re:complicated

[Golias]

Third, manufacturers with lots more hardware to sell and smaller margins, such as Dell, do not have such restrictive policies.

Ahem. From Dell's web site (bold emphasis added by me):

All new hardware, accessories, parts, and unopened software still in its sealed package, excluding the products listed below, may be returned within thirty (30) days from the date on the packing slip or invoice. New n-series with FreeDOSTM products and PowerEdge SC servers purchased from the Small and Medium Business Sales Division may be returned within fourteen (14) days from the date on the packing slip or invoice. To return applications software or an operating system that has been installed by Dell, you must return the entire computer. A different return policy applies to nondefective products purchased through Dell's Software and Peripherals division by customers of our Small and Medium Business divisions. Those products may be returned within thirty days from the date on the packing slip or invoice, but a fifteen percent (15%) return fee will be deducted from any refund or credit. The "Total Satisfaction" Return Policy and Software and Peripherals division return policy are not available for Dell/EMC storage products, EMC-branded products, Unisys-branded products, PowerVaultTM 160T tape libraries or enterprise software.

Re:complicated

[Anonymous Coward]

1. Most people charge huge markups on their higher-end products and break even on the lower-end. Apple charges decent markup across the board. Notice how they're still in business and profitable, even these days? Smart business.

2. The software being easy to use has nothing to do with the sales policies of the on-line store.

3. If Dell wants to take back a custom config, remove the customized items, re-certify the unit, and sell it as a refurb at a loss then that's their stupidity. Once a product is out of the box it cannot legally be sold again as anything but used or refurbished, so companies that do this always take a loss.

4. They make it perfectly clear on the store you are getting a custom config. When you add additional items or change existing ones the model of the product changes and the time to ship usually doubles (or more). If you look at the shopping cart before checkout it's painfully obvious. For instance, I just went through the store and selected a stock 2GHz G5. The model number was M9032LL/A and the time to ship was 1-2 bus. days I then went back and added RAM and got model Z07K and a time to ship of 5-7 bus. days.

That, and if you change anything on the "Customize your computer" screen I would have to say it was customized...

Re:complicated

[dizzyduck]

When I received my order of Logitech Z680 5.1 Speakers from Apple, they were DOA. Apple wouldn't refund or exchange my order (as stated in their return policy), so I had to go through the manufacturer. And we all know how fun that is!

Wouldn't Apple be legally obliged to exchange the item or offer a refund? You paid for a set speakers, you got a doorstop. End of story.

For consumers in the UK at least, the contract exists between the customer and the trader - the manufacturer doesn't figure into it at all (Sale Of Goods Act). It is up to the trader to sort out any problems with the goods - not the customer. That said, many high street electrical stores will insist that the customer contacts the manufacturer for repair as many consumers are unaware of the rights they have.

I'd find it hard to imagine that this isn't the case in the US too.

Small Claims Court?

[ottawanker]

Where do you live that you have a small claims court open at quarter to six in the morning? Doesn't seem like anywhere in the USA or Canada, which may cause unforeseen errors in our legal advice.

You've been stung

[kinnell]

Any opinions? Suggestions?

Read the small print next time. I think it's reasonable for them to claim that it is a custom configuration, but refusing to support it when they have done the assembly is pretty disgraceful.

Re:You've been stung

[aluminumcube]

Well, I think this is not a matter of Apple supporting the product, it is a mater of Apple not willing to accept a return of the product.

Personally, I think Apple offers 'custom configurations' because some customers want it and it sort of looks stupid not to offer it. Apple goes out of it's way to insure that their prices on RAM and extra hard drives (about the only two items you can 'configure' your system with) are way out of line with what's available on the open market. The fact of the matter is that Apple's margins on these components are extremely low and the resources required to pull a machine off the shelf at the warehouse, have an employee put the components in, repackage the whole thing and ship it are not worth it for Apple.

I think Apple really wishes customers would simply go out (or online) and procure a bigger hard drive or more RAM themselves. They go out of their way to provide instructions for installing these components and it really isn't that hard to do. Besides, it's far less expensive for the customer in the end, and you don't need to wait an extra week for the computer to be shipped by Apple...

Re:You've been stung

[Anonymous Freak]

No, the point is that Apple DOES guarantee their work, they just won't take a 'no-fault' return on custom equipment.

If my engraved iPod stops working within the warranty period, I can get it repaired/replaced at no charge.

But if I decide that I just don't like my iPod, I can't return it if it's engraved. If it's *NOT* engraved, Apple policy says I have 30 days to return it for a full refund, no questions asked.

Same with computers. A 'non-custom' one, I can just decide that I don't like it and return it for a full refund. (Maybe I decided on the Dual 2.0GHz instead, who knows?) But if I have customized it, I can't return it for a refund. If it breaks, I can get it repaired under warranty, but I can't return it for 'no reason'.

The original poster isn't clear, but it sounds like he just wants to return it with nothing wrong.

I call BS

[Hungus]

I have certainly returned custom apple systems in the past and have not had any issue whatsoever with it. How long had you had it before trying to return it? Where is your court docket? You are way to lite on details for me to consider this anything but false at this point. Feel free to prove me wrong however.

Re:I call BS

[derek_i]

I had a machine on delivery (ie. Apple had shipped it and I had not received it yet) and their customer service informed me that I could not return it since it was custom built (I ordered a 15" laptop with a SuperDrive which was considered a custom built machine). The reason I wanted to return it was in the meantime we went to the Apple store to purchase more notebooks for the company and I picked up a nicer one for myself. So in short, time was within one week of purchase, no delivery, no open box, over $6000 spent at the Apple store, big F U from Apple.

Don't get me wrong, I like Apple hardware and and OS X, but the company is focused on money, with consumers coming second (like most companies) and they are not your friend.

-D

Details

[Compulawyer]

You leave out a number of basic facts that make it impossible to comment intelligently on your posting. I'd like to know:

• What country/state are you in?
• WHY were you trying to return the computer? Was it defective or did you just not want it after you got it?
• How long did you have the computer before you asked Apple to accept a return? For that matter, DID you ask Apple to accept a return or did you just file suit?
• If you did ask Apple to accept a return, how far did you escalate the matter? Did you stop at the first person who told you "no" or did you ask for that person's supervisor?

If I was representing you in this matter, these are just the first of the questions I would be asking you, for two reasons: First, it is information that establishes whether you have a case. Second, they are the first questions the OTHER SIDE will ask you.

Synopsis

[Mononoke]

I just got back from a small claims court proceeding...

They successfully won their argument in front of the court...

Am I the only one that thinks there is something terribly wrong...

No. I think it's "terribly wrong" to come out in public (especially this public) and tell us half the story just for the sympathy.

Got any other anecdotes we can use to bash "The Man" who still seems to just "keep us down?"

No its not wrong

[Jeff Kelly]

In germany, where i live, we have something called the "Fernabsatzgesetz" regarding purchases made by phone or internet.

The argument goes something like this: Since you have no way of testing the product before you buy it (since you ordered it through the internet) the law grants you the right to return the product within 14 days of your purchase without giving reasons why you'd returned it provided two conditions hold:

1. The product was not damaged by you since you opened it

and

2. The product was not costum built for you.

If either one of these conditions doesn't hold you will have to keep it. A product is custom built if it deviates from the basic or standard product in a way which cannot be undone. So simple upgrades like more memory or a better graphics-adapter don't count as custom built since theses modification can be undone by the vendor.

A personal engraving for your iPod on the other hand would count as custom built.

Of course since in your case it is not a law but only company policy you have to stick to their rules and Apple clearly states that any upgrade counts as custom built and makes the item exempt from the return policy.

So no it's not terrible wrong. Just because you were to lazy to read the terms of service doesn't make the apple bad.

Regards

Jeff

Re:Is this for real?

[Anonymous Coward]

Apple isn't the only company to stand by this policy. Dell has the exact same policy on their CTO systems. I can understand from a corporate standpoint why this policy exists. If you're going to spend the time configuring a server / workstation system to meet your exact needs - you should have no reason to return it. The only exception is if the thing just doesn't work.

-Steve

I just have one (two-part) question:

[phillymjs]

Why is it that people seem to think Apple's written policies simply do not apply to them? And if people act this way with other companies, why does it only seem to be newsworthy when Apple is involved?

First we've got the iPod retards, who apparently think there are at least eighteen months in a year. I mean, why else would they act like Apple owes them something under the terms of a one-year warranty when their battery dies eighteen months after purchase? Are they traveling at the speed of light? Do they use the Martian calendar? Who knows? They also seem to think that Apple told them the battery would never die, but that's another rant.

Now we've got this other tool posting his whine about not being allowed to return a customized machine. The link to Apple's written policy on that is only on the bottom of every page generated by the Apple Store web site, so it's easy to see how he failed to see it. So now he's trying to raise a public stink in the hopes Apple will make an exception for him to quash the bad publicity he's trying to generate.

These people who flagrantly ignore written policies and then get indignant about it must be the same type of people who park their hulking SUVs in spaces marked "Compact Only." I think the next time I see one of those, I'll key it to demonstrate my contempt.

~Philly

Your post should read:

[switcha]

I just got back from expecting the world and all companies it encompasses to revolve around me, even though I spent a couple grand on a product without clicking a link to see the explicitly stated return policy, or lack thereof. Now heap sympathy on me. I am a victim, and I know you all hate big companies and will concur with my short-on-facts synopsis.

Funny, since Consumer Reports ranks Apple #1

[daveschroeder]

Consumer Reports consistently ranks Apple #1 in lowest incidence of repair and best support among all computer manufacturers.

Most recent Consumer Reports report available on their web site (June 2003)
Most recent report, available to CR subscribers, referenced in News.com article (March 2004)

So if Apple's support is "horrible", then I guess everyone else is a lot worse (especially since Dell, the next closest to Apple, got the middle rating on 3 out of 4 support categories, while Apple got the top rating in all categories).

Little Guy Vs Apple - THE DETAILS

[djhanson]

Sorry for the slim details in the original posting. But, let me try to fill in the blanks, and clarify my position.

Court details: State of Washington, Seattle District Court, Small Claim No. Y3-9978, Trail date was 2/24/2004. Apple sent a corporate employee as their representative.

The purchase was a dual processor Xserve. I upgraded from 512MB of memory to 2GB and from 60GB of disk space to 480GB.

I was totally aware of Apples return policy before placing my order. My dispute is: Does selecting additional memory or disk drives really constitute a product that is "custom configured to your specifications". According to the defense that Apple used, even adding one stick of memory would have made it custom configured. My upgrades were selected from a standard menu on their website. I didn't call and ask for some esoteric tape drive or anything like that. In court someone brought up the analogy of buying a car. My response to that was, if I am buying a brand new car off the lot, and I ask for an automatic transmission (which usually costs more), I still have a stock car. No one is going to say that I bought a customized car. Knowing what I know now, I would order the hard drives and memory separately and install them myself after the 10-day evaluation period.

I appreciate the comment made by one poster regarding how the sales clerk made the return policy very clear. I think that Apple's website should be as clear. Maybe "Custom Configured" icons could be located next to the items that will affect the return policy. Apple's defense claimed that it states at the top of the web page "Configure your Xserve" and that this should be enough of an indicator. But, options included on this very same page also include the "Mac OS X Server Maintenance Program", "AppleCare Service and Parts Kits for Xserve" and AppleCare support Plans. Surely selecting these items wouldn't constitute a custom configured product. And at no other time during the purchase process, including my invoice receipt from Apple did it indicate that I was purchasing a custom configured product that could not be returned. I certainly don't think that Apple deliberately sets out to trap customers into purchasing items that can't be refunded. But, on the other hand their policies and procedures sure don't give the impression of being well thought out, or cohesive.

As for the concern about whether I was returning the product because I just changed my mind or it because it was broke. I'm not sure if the reason really matters, unless Apple wants to use the information to possibly make changes in their product or policies. After all, their policy does state "if you are not satisfied". It says nothing about have to give reasons. But, since people are curious .... The hardware worked without fail for the 10 days that we evaluated machine. In fact the hardware is the reason that we were attracted to the Xserve. The problems were related to the software. We found Apple's customized version of BSD Unix to be difficult to work with. We would add commonly used Open Source software and it would break some Apple proprietary interface, or vice versa. We really tried hard for the 10 days to make this machine work for us. And we found it frustrating every step of the way. I attribute this to Apple's proprietary way of doing things. But, the clincher for us was when we started with a clean install of OS 10, added Webmin (a commonly used remote admin program), and the server would crash when trying to remotely reboot it, from the shell prompt. This was very easily reproducible. And also totally unacceptable since the final destination for this box is a data center where hands-on reboots are a rare event. I know that I could have worked with Apple and probably gotten a patch for this issue. However, it seemed serious enough for me to decide to return the product, and look elsewhere.

I did give serious thought to installing Yellow Dog Linux on the machine and not even dealing with Apple's version of BSD Unix, but after havi