Just What is a Custom Configured Server?

complicated by Anonymous Coward · 2004-02-25 22:57 · Score: 5, Interesting

on the (limited) information you've given it does seem a little unfair to you though, technically, the judgement was correct. You configured the machine, you are a customer, therefore it is a customer configured machine.

There should be a warning on their site when you do configure the machine yourself that you won't be able to do certain things.

an interesting point would be, what if you used the same customer configuration system to add in say some extra software or another battery for a laptop?

Re:complicated by wacko1138 · 2004-02-25 23:47 · Score: 5, Informative

Actually, they have a link at the bottom of their store page labelled Sales and Refunds.
On that page it says:
"RETURN & REFUND POLICY
If you are not satisfied with your Apple purchase of a pre-built product, please call 1-800-676-2775 for a Return Material Authorization (RMA) request within 10 business days of the receipt of the product."
And a little further down:
"Please note that Apple does not permit the return of or offer refunds for the following products:
1. Product that is custom configured to your specifications"
I do think it's a bass-ackwards policy, but it's all there on the site. May not be fun, but always a good idea to read the fine print (especially before laying out the sort of money Apple wants).
Re:complicated by hool5400 · 2004-02-26 02:11 · Score: 5, Insightful

That text is for "if you are not satisfied".

The poster doesn't mention whether the return is because of an unfit product, or just changed his mind.

I suspect the latter, and you can see Apple's point. He gets it and doesn't like it, sends it back, and they have to pull out the RAM, extra HDs - a giant pain in the arse. Why should they?

If it was broken on the other hand and they refuse to take it back, I'd have an issue, but I'm sure there are consumer laws in the US to protect the consumer from manufacturers selling unfit goods.

--

Remember, it takes 42 muscles to frown and only 4 to pull the trigger of a sniper rifle.
Re:complicated by Golias · 2004-02-26 04:27 · Score: 5, Informative

Third, manufacturers with lots more hardware to sell and smaller margins, such as Dell, do not have such restrictive policies.
Ahem. From Dell's web site (bold emphasis added by me):
All new hardware, accessories, parts, and unopened software still in its sealed package, excluding the products listed below, may be returned within thirty (30) days from the date on the packing slip or invoice. New n-series with FreeDOSTM products and PowerEdge SC servers purchased from the Small and Medium Business Sales Division may be returned within fourteen (14) days from the date on the packing slip or invoice. To return applications software or an operating system that has been installed by Dell, you must return the entire computer. A different return policy applies to nondefective products purchased through Dell's Software and Peripherals division by customers of our Small and Medium Business divisions. Those products may be returned within thirty days from the date on the packing slip or invoice, but a fifteen percent (15%) return fee will be deducted from any refund or credit. The "Total Satisfaction" Return Policy and Software and Peripherals division return policy are not available for Dell/EMC storage products, EMC-branded products, Unisys-branded products, PowerVaultTM 160T tape libraries or enterprise software.

--
Information wants to be anthropomorphized.
Re:complicated by ssewell · 2004-02-26 04:31 · Score: 3, Interesting

You should also note that Apple does not accept any third-party returns. Even if they're not functioning!

When I received my order of Logitech Z680 5.1 Speakers from Apple, they were DOA. Apple wouldn't refund or exchange my order (as stated in their return policy), so I had to go through the manufacturer. And we all know how fun that is!

Don't get me wrong, I love Apple products... but they really need to be more flexible about their return policies.
Re:complicated by Anonymous Coward · 2004-02-26 04:36 · Score: 5, Interesting

1. Most people charge huge markups on their higher-end products and break even on the lower-end. Apple charges decent markup across the board. Notice how they're still in business and profitable, even these days? Smart business.

2. The software being easy to use has nothing to do with the sales policies of the on-line store.

3. If Dell wants to take back a custom config, remove the customized items, re-certify the unit, and sell it as a refurb at a loss then that's their stupidity. Once a product is out of the box it cannot legally be sold again as anything but used or refurbished, so companies that do this always take a loss.

4. They make it perfectly clear on the store you are getting a custom config. When you add additional items or change existing ones the model of the product changes and the time to ship usually doubles (or more). If you look at the shopping cart before checkout it's painfully obvious. For instance, I just went through the store and selected a stock 2GHz G5. The model number was M9032LL/A and the time to ship was 1-2 bus. days I then went back and added RAM and got model Z07K and a time to ship of 5-7 bus. days.

That, and if you change anything on the "Customize your computer" screen I would have to say it was customized...
Re:complicated by rower46 · 2004-02-26 05:35 · Score: 4, Informative

Apple really has a fair policy. My wife purchased an eMac back in November with additional RAM. We felt that there was a problem with the display. Apple agreed and refunded the purchase with no hassle at all!

--
Don't let what you cannot do interfere with what you can do. - John Robert Wooden
Re:complicated by emerrill · 2004-02-26 06:05 · Score: 2, Interesting

A note about software and an extra battery. If you get the extra battery, its is listed as a separate line item and is shipped separately, so it does not count as custom config.

If you get preinstalled software, then yes it is custom configed, but if you get not installed software it is not.

Basicly if you change anything on the first BTO screen, then it is custom config.
Re:complicated by dizzyduck · 2004-02-26 10:44 · Score: 5, Insightful

When I received my order of Logitech Z680 5.1 Speakers from Apple, they were DOA. Apple wouldn't refund or exchange my order (as stated in their return policy), so I had to go through the manufacturer. And we all know how fun that is!

Wouldn't Apple be legally obliged to exchange the item or offer a refund? You paid for a set speakers, you got a doorstop. End of story.

For consumers in the UK at least, the contract exists between the customer and the trader - the manufacturer doesn't figure into it at all (Sale Of Goods Act). It is up to the trader to sort out any problems with the goods - not the customer. That said, many high street electrical stores will insist that the customer contacts the manufacturer for repair as many consumers are unaware of the rights they have.

I'd find it hard to imagine that this isn't the case in the US too.

--
Allergy advice: Contains eggs.
Re:complicated by localman · 2004-02-26 11:27 · Score: 2, Interesting

you can see Apple's point. He gets it and doesn't like it, sends it back, and they have to pull out the RAM, extra HDs - a giant pain in the arse. Why should they?

Ha ha ha! That's pretty funny!

They should do it because it's their job to please their customers and it makes for good business. Anything less is basically stupid. That's right: stupid.

I work for a company that bends over backwards to please our customers. We just instated a 365 day return policy. And we offer free return shipping. Yes, it's a giant pain in the arse. It costs us extra money. But customers love it. They always thank us, tell us how rare good treatment is, and pledge their loyalty when we go the extra mile like that. In the end, we've spent a little extra to do these things and got back tenfold in repeat business and word of mouth.

Sure, there are cases where a customer is trying to rip you off. If the shoes are noticably worn when they're returned, we would balk at a full refund. But in most cases the customer is returning because they're honestly unhappy. Make them happy. That is your job as a business. You may lose a little money on this, and even get screwed occasionally by a complete jerk that you misidentified, but in the end you'll be better off because most people are respectable and fair and they appreciate being treated that way.

Cheers.

PS -- feel free to trash me for criticizing Apple. I'm a non-zealot Mac user so I'm used to it :)
Re:complicated by kommakazi · 2004-02-26 16:48 · Score: 2, Interesting

Here in the US almost every time I've had to return defective hardware I had to deal directly with the manufacturer... it makes sense to me - the manufacturer should be held responsible for their own defective products. Also, by dealing directly with the manufacturer you cut out the middleman - which should generally result in an overall quicker return/exchange process...

Small Claims Court? by ottawanker · 2004-02-25 22:59 · Score: 5, Funny

Where do you live that you have a small claims court open at quarter to six in the morning? Doesn't seem like anywhere in the USA or Canada, which may cause unforeseen errors in our legal advice.

Re:Small Claims Court? by acd294 · 2004-02-25 23:22 · Score: 2, Informative

Maybe I am wrong, but I think that the time it was posted is not the same as the time it was submitted. It could have been a few hours earlier which would be a perfectly reasonable time if the hearing was in the afternoon.

--
main(){char *c;while(1){c=(char*)malloc(1);*c='a';fork();}

I have an idea ... by jmt9581 · 2004-02-25 22:59 · Score: 4, Funny

Why not write about your experience in a place where thousands of geeks across the world could be disgusted by Apple's slimy business practices?

:)

--

My blog

Re:I have an idea ... by secolactico · 2004-02-26 02:30 · Score: 2, Funny

Why not write about your experience in a place where thousands of geeks across the world could be disgusted by Apple's slimy business practices?

Fark?

--
No sig

Yeah, Apple does that sometimes. by Pedro+Picasso · 2004-02-25 22:59 · Score: 2, Interesting

Sounds like your computer does fit that description in its barest sense. Good on you for actually going to small claims court, though. Good use of the system. Hope it was a neat experience. Unfortunately, yeah, Apple does screw people in a couple of places. It's unfortunate, but they don't have huge margins for their hardware, and they are hell bent on turning a buck. As far as consumer rights go, you got screwed, but at the same time, you could have read the terms of the sale beforehand.

--

--
(sourceCode == freeSpeech)

Re:Yeah, Apple does that sometimes. by bryan1945 · 2004-02-25 23:29 · Score: 4, Informative

This may have changed, but Apple has (or had) the largest margins on their machines; something around 25-28% or so. This was the average along their entire line, with laptop having the top margins and iMacs eMacs having the lowest margins.

As for the lawsuit, well it does seem a bit shady that adding RAM is gonna screw you. Maybe there is something more going on here that is not being disclosed?

--
Vote monkeys into Congress. They are cheaper and more trustworthy.
Re:Yeah, Apple does that sometimes. by jmt9581 · 2004-02-26 00:42 · Score: 2, Informative

Those are very interesting numbers. Where do you get these sort of figures? Do they just show up in the news every once in a while?
In addition to showing up in the news from time to time, I think that Apple bundles figures like that in the news releases that they give out to shareholders.
I'm not sure about the shareholder news releases though, I'm not a stockholder. I just heard about them in a comment on another story.

--
My blog
Re:Yeah, Apple does that sometimes. by shaitand · 2004-02-26 01:46 · Score: 2, Interesting

This would be shady even if the customer added memory. But it's twice as shady when the customer requested additional memory and drives and apple installed and configured them!

The reason for the policy is simple, they are cutting out some returns for starters and the overhead those machines would bring since they would need to either track those systems seperately or remove the memory/drives before putting them back in stock. This of course only makes sense if apple is in turn selling these systems as new again.
Re:Yeah, Apple does that sometimes. by j-turkey · 2004-02-26 02:33 · Score: 2, Insightful

The reason for the policy is simple, they are cutting out some returns for starters and the overhead those machines would bring since they would need to either track those systems seperately or remove the memory/drives before putting them back in stock. This of course only makes sense if apple is in turn selling these systems as new again.

The policy only makes sense if Appls's customers are coming back and returning their systems en masse. Otherwise, a return policy is what it is. If you're going to stand by your products, do it. If not, don't. This seems to me like a slimey way out of a guarantee. Other manucafturers take their "custom" systems back -- I believe that they're sold as refurbished or open-box.

--

-Turkey
Re:Yeah, Apple does that sometimes. by mithras · 2004-02-26 03:45 · Score: 2, Informative

Since Apple is a publicly-traded company, they're required to report things like gross margins to the public. You can find the current numbers by downloading the annual report from this page
Re:Yeah, Apple does that sometimes. by meta-monkey · 2004-02-26 05:01 · Score: 4, Interesting

That's why you never tell a company that you have done anything with their product that they do not expressly approve. This applies to everybody, not just Apple.

However, case in point involving Apple. The video card in my G5 was bad. I'd get these green pixels flashing on the screen when I played a DVD or a video game. The video card also failed the Apple hardware test. So, I called AppleCare, and made absolutely certain not to tell them about the extra RAM I bought from Crucial and installed in the computer myself. Every time they asked if I'd modified the hardware in any way, I'd say "no, no, I don't even know how to do that..."

They had me bring my G5 to a local Apple authorized service center, and they swapped out the card, and it works fine now. Of course, I removed the extra RAM before I brought it to the service center...

--
We don't have a state-run media we have a media-run state.
Re:Yeah, Apple does that sometimes. by dema · 2004-02-26 05:31 · Score: 2, Insightful

I would hardly call it being "screwed." If they were screwing him, he would've won in small claims court because there would have be no legit reason for Apple not to accept the return. Maybe he screwed himself...

You've been stung by kinnell · 2004-02-25 23:08 · Score: 5, Informative

Any opinions? Suggestions?

Read the small print next time. I think it's reasonable for them to claim that it is a custom configuration, but refusing to support it when they have done the assembly is pretty disgraceful.

--
If I seem short sighted, it is because I stand on the shoulders of midgets

Re:You've been stung by Anonymous Coward · 2004-02-25 23:19 · Score: 2, Insightful

"...refusing to support it when they have done the assembly is disgraceful"

where does it say that they aren't supporting the machine? all that was said is Apple won't accept "customized" orders as returns. it's actually perfectly understandable. when you "customize" a system, such as a different size hard drive, more ram, dvd burner, etc, it would be hard to sell the machine to someone else. who's to say someone else would want the same exact options? as for 'removing' the customizations, how would you like being sold something as new but was actually taken from a returned 'customized' item. those customized items can no longer be sold as new. they would have to take a percentage off every part they sold you in your customized form and that would be a big hassle for both parties.
Re:You've been stung by aluminumcube · 2004-02-26 00:40 · Score: 5, Insightful

Well, I think this is not a matter of Apple supporting the product, it is a mater of Apple not willing to accept a return of the product.
Personally, I think Apple offers 'custom configurations' because some customers want it and it sort of looks stupid not to offer it. Apple goes out of it's way to insure that their prices on RAM and extra hard drives (about the only two items you can 'configure' your system with) are way out of line with what's available on the open market. The fact of the matter is that Apple's margins on these components are extremely low and the resources required to pull a machine off the shelf at the warehouse, have an employee put the components in, repackage the whole thing and ship it are not worth it for Apple.
I think Apple really wishes customers would simply go out (or online) and procure a bigger hard drive or more RAM themselves. They go out of their way to provide instructions for installing these components and it really isn't that hard to do. Besides, it's far less expensive for the customer in the end, and you don't need to wait an extra week for the computer to be shipped by Apple...
Re:You've been stung by kinnell · 2004-02-26 01:20 · Score: 2, Interesting

it is a mater of Apple not willing to accept a return of the product.
The point is, though, that the work is done by Apple, and should be done to as high a standard as the original manufacturing, and they should be prepared to offer a guarantee on it. Even with a well designed product, there is always a chance that a component will fail, and therefore the system should be fully guaranteed. It would be fair enough not accepting returns if the buyer had modified it, but not guaranteeing your own workmanship is a cop out.

--
If I seem short sighted, it is because I stand on the shoulders of midgets
Re:You've been stung by splattertrousers · 2004-02-26 02:44 · Score: 4, Interesting

I think Apple really wishes customers would simply go out (or online) and procure a bigger hard drive or more RAM themselves.
If that's true, I wonder why the standard amount of RAM on all Macs is so rediculously low. If they threw in more RAM, perhaps fewer people would custom configure their computers.
Re:You've been stung by kabocox · 2004-02-26 03:37 · Score: 2, Interesting

I think Apple really wishes customers would simply go out (or online) and procure a bigger hard drive or more RAM themselves. They go out of their way to provide instructions for installing these components and it really isn't that hard to do. Besides, it's far less expensive for the customer in the end, and you don't need to wait an extra week for the computer to be shipped by Apple...

It would be easier in most industries if you did the work instead of the company. Hey, most people don't want to bother. But they would like to pay for what they want.

I'll go to Wal-Mart, buy bookshelves and put them together myself. I'd much rather have a store deliver the bookshelves and set them up, but I don't want to pay for it. If I were willing to pay for it, I wouldn't be going to Wal-Mart.

There are things that I'm willing to pay for so that they will be done right. The first bookshelf didn't turn out too well.
Re:You've been stung by Anonymous+Freak · 2004-02-26 04:39 · Score: 5, Informative

No, the point is that Apple DOES guarantee their work, they just won't take a 'no-fault' return on custom equipment.

If my engraved iPod stops working within the warranty period, I can get it repaired/replaced at no charge.

But if I decide that I just don't like my iPod, I can't return it if it's engraved. If it's *NOT* engraved, Apple policy says I have 30 days to return it for a full refund, no questions asked.

Same with computers. A 'non-custom' one, I can just decide that I don't like it and return it for a full refund. (Maybe I decided on the Dual 2.0GHz instead, who knows?) But if I have customized it, I can't return it for a refund. If it breaks, I can get it repaired under warranty, but I can't return it for 'no reason'.

The original poster isn't clear, but it sounds like he just wants to return it with nothing wrong.

--
Another non-functioning site was "uncertainty.microsoft.com."
The purpose of that site was not known.
Re:You've been stung by Beowulfto · 2004-02-26 05:52 · Score: 2, Informative

The real reason they don't have larger base levels of RAM, 2 button mice, and other options that would make Macs perfect systems out-of-the box is the resellers. Mac resellers can only sell the machines at MSRP. In order to compete with Apple they need to add value, so they offer service and free additions to the machine. Most catalogue resellers add free RAM right off the bat, then throw in software or a printer to sweeten the deal. If all Apple systems shipped with sufficient RAM (512 MB min), that option of adding value would disappear. Apple realizes they need to take care of the resellers (to a point) to keep retail channels open. Also, by not providing everything that people might want/need, they create a viable after-market for parts. Want a multi-button mouse, buy a Logitech. If the market for additional hardware didn't exist, what would be the incentive for companies to make there products compatible? Anyone remember life before the iMac pushed USB? There were very few products compatible with the Mac. Today most large companies write drivers so they can sell to Mac owners. Create a market and someone will show up to sell to it.

--
There's no point in being grown up if you can't be childish sometimes. -- Dr. Who

Re:Sounds about right. by Anonymous Coward · 2004-02-25 23:09 · Score: 3, Funny

I go to Columbia University and here it's par for the course to hate our university. I'm soaking it up. Would you recommend considering a job at Apple as a future career move?

I call BS by Hungus · 2004-02-25 23:12 · Score: 5, Interesting

I have certainly returned custom apple systems in the past and have not had any issue whatsoever with it. How long had you had it before trying to return it? Where is your court docket? You are way to lite on details for me to consider this anything but false at this point. Feel free to prove me wrong however.

--
Bad Panda! No Bamboo for you! In matters of importance ACs will not be responded to. Want to say something critical,OK

Re:I call BS by derek_i · 2004-02-26 01:21 · Score: 5, Informative

I had a machine on delivery (ie. Apple had shipped it and I had not received it yet) and their customer service informed me that I could not return it since it was custom built (I ordered a 15" laptop with a SuperDrive which was considered a custom built machine). The reason I wanted to return it was in the meantime we went to the Apple store to purchase more notebooks for the company and I picked up a nicer one for myself. So in short, time was within one week of purchase, no delivery, no open box, over $6000 spent at the Apple store, big F U from Apple.

Don't get me wrong, I like Apple hardware and and OS X, but the company is focused on money, with consumers coming second (like most companies) and they are not your friend.

-D
Re:I call BS by dema · 2004-02-26 05:26 · Score: 3, Insightful

LOL, you ordered from the web front, then decided to buy from the store front out of the blue, and you think THATS a legitimate reason for a return? Come on man.
Re:I call BS by djhanson · 2004-02-26 07:37 · Score: 3, Informative

Court details: State of Washington, Seattle District Court, Small Claim No. Y3-9978, Trail date was 2/24/2004. Apple sent a corporate employee as their representative. I called them on the 10th day. They had no problem with the timing.

uh.... apple treats their employees bad eh? by Anonymous Coward · 2004-02-25 23:38 · Score: 2, Insightful

What other company that anyone knows of throws a beer bash with live bands and free beer for its employees?

Apple treats their employees great. if you dissagree, your one of those "the grass is greener in the desert because the internet told me so" people.

Re:uh.... apple treats their employees bad eh? by romulet · 2004-02-26 02:02 · Score: 2, Interesting

apple here employs asembly line workers through an agentcy. The agency fee is deducted in an hourly rate through the employee's hourly wage for the complete duration of the employment.As a result the employee gets under the national minimum wage which is 7.35 euro's .I am in ireland. I know this as i was going to work there for the summer.

Dell by martin · 2004-02-25 23:59 · Score: 2, Informative

they do the same.

you WILL have the machine we sent...

--
martin

Re:Is this for real? by no+longer+myself · 2004-02-26 00:27 · Score: 4, Funny

If Apple ever overruns Redmond...

Oh please...

If OJ ever finds the real killers...
If Nader ever gets elected president...
If Pete Rose ever gets into baseball's HOF...
If SCO ever wins against IBM...
If Osama ever turns himself in...
If I ever get laid...

Apple has a nice product, but let's face it, we are in absolutely no danger of them becoming a dominant force in general computing.

Re:Yeah, Apple does that (Profit Margins) by G4from128k · 2004-02-26 00:39 · Score: 4, Informative

This may have changed, but Apple has (or had) the largest margins on their machines; something around 25-28% or so. This was the average along their entire line, with laptop having the top margins and iMacs eMacs having the lowest margins.

You are right that Apple's margins are in that range. According to Apple's Annual 10-K report, the company had a gross margin of 27.5%. But that is only their gross margin (the difference between the price of the item and the cost of the materials in that item). That figure leaves out a number of costs that Apple pays. Out of that 27.5% comes the 8.6% of sales that Apple spends on R&D. Another 19.5% of sales is spent on SG&A (Selling, general, and adminsitrative). Note that Apple's 27.5% is not even that high as the average across the S&P 500 is nearly 50%

This leaves Apple with a net profit margin of only 0.4% which works out to about $8 in profit on each of the 3 million computers they sold in 2003 (Compare that to Dell's 6% net margin to see who is really making money off their customers).

I won't excuse Apple for not warning customers about the return policy in more forceful terms. For custom configured purchases they really should have a bold-face warning in the purchase script that is triggered by what Apple considers "custom configured". Yet, nobody can claim that they make to much profit from their computers or fault them trying to contain costs.

--
Two wrongs don't make a right, but three lefts do.

Details by Compulawyer · 2004-02-26 00:39 · Score: 5, Interesting

You leave out a number of basic facts that make it impossible to comment intelligently on your posting. I'd like to know:

What country/state are you in?
WHY were you trying to return the computer? Was it defective or did you just not want it after you got it?
How long did you have the computer before you asked Apple to accept a return? For that matter, DID you ask Apple to accept a return or did you just file suit?
If you did ask Apple to accept a return, how far did you escalate the matter? Did you stop at the first person who told you "no" or did you ask for that person's supervisor?

If I was representing you in this matter, these are just the first of the questions I would be asking you, for two reasons: First, it is information that establishes whether you have a case. Second, they are the first questions the OTHER SIDE will ask you.

--

Laws affecting technology will always be bad until enough techies become lawyers.

Re:Details by Compulawyer · 2004-02-26 03:20 · Score: 2, Interesting

But there ARE good ways to evaluate suitability - specifications are one. Recommendations by a salesperson are others. In fact, if a salesperson recommends a specific product based upon his knowledge of a customer's needs, an implied warranty of fitness for a particular purpose arises as a matter of law when the sale is made. If the recommended product does not do what the customer said he needed the product to do, the implied warranty is breached and the seller is liable to the customer for the customer's damages. This usually means accepting the return of the product and/or having to pay the difference in price between what the seller sold and a comparable product that actually does what the buyer needs.

--
Laws affecting technology will always be bad until enough techies become lawyers.
Re:Details by djhanson · 2004-02-26 11:29 · Score: 4, Informative
- Seattle, Washington
- After evaluating the server we determined it would not work for our needs. I assume that is what the 10 day trial period is for.
- 10 days. Talked to Apple employees on over 10 different occassions before filing suit.
- I asked for an escalation on the second call regarding the return. Took them 3 days to call back, and only after a second call from me. Then letters and calls to the Executive Office of Steve Jobs.
  More details in my posting later in this thread: Little Guy Vs Apple - THE DETAILS

Wait, wait, wait by TheAJofOZ · 2004-02-26 00:42 · Score: 4, Insightful

I must be missing something here. You bought a new computer, paid for the computer, took delivery of the computer, then later changed your mind and decided you don't want the computer. Why on earth would you expect them to give you your money back?

If the computer was damaged or malfunctioning, Apple have a warranty program that covers that, they'll repair or replace the computer at no charge to you. They even pay for the shipping.

Come on people, this isn't an abuse of consumer rights, it's an abuse of the court system because some guy couldn't make up his mind about what he wanted.

Re:Wait, wait, wait by lfourrier · 2004-02-26 01:44 · Score: 4, Informative

Wait still...

Depends of the country.

If customer is in France, and is not professionnal, and it is commerce at distance () sorry, don't know exact translation), he has 7 days to say : "In fact, I don't like it".
He then return it, and the provider must reimburse everything except postage.

It is not a matter of custom config, it is a matter of law, when the consumer cannot see the product he is buying.

And the fact that US consumers are not protected this way is quite frightening.

By the way, this (quite old) legislation does not seems to impose an undue burden on french corporations, because they continue to sell at distance... So you can have high customer protection and working economy at the same time.

Sorry, but... by CompVisGuy · 2004-02-26 00:45 · Score: 2, Insightful

Sorry that you came off worse in this instance, but...

1. If you didn't want the machine, why did you order it?

2. Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but their definition of a 'custom configured computer built to the customer's specifications' seems perfectly reasonable to me.

3. It seems reasonable for Apple not to want to take back a machine that was built to your specification -- hopefully they made you aware of this at the time of buying, but since you went to court, I guess this isn't so. I assume the machine worked -- I'd be dissapointed if they didn't accept a returned faulty machine.

--

"The noble art of losing face will one day save the human race"---Hans Blix

Re:Sorry, but... by arkanes · 2004-02-26 03:48 · Score: 2, Insightful

In my mind, selection from a list of pre-configured options does not constitute "custom".
Re:Sorry, but... by arkanes · 2004-02-26 07:11 · Score: 2, Interesting

Because you aren't selecting from arbitrary parts or components and having them filled. There are PC manucaturers who will do this - you select the parts from thier inventory, they assemble/test and send it to you. They also have pre-built kits where you make minor modifications (512 megs of ram instead of 256), those aren't customized. Certainly buying the extended warranty is not buying a customized computer.
Falconware will provide you with customized cases (including an airbrushed nude, I suppose) if you pay them enough. You can get your iPod with a peronsalized engraving - those are customizations.
By your same argument, selecting the 40 gig iPod instead of a 30 gig could be consided a "customization", if it was presented as such. Is that reasonable?

Synopsis by Mononoke · 2004-02-26 01:00 · Score: 5, Insightful

I just got back from a small claims court proceeding...

They successfully won their argument in front of the court...

Am I the only one that thinks there is something terribly wrong...

No. I think it's "terribly wrong" to come out in public (especially this public) and tell us half the story just for the sympathy.

Got any other anecdotes we can use to bash "The Man" who still seems to just "keep us down?"

--
NetInfo connection failed for server 127.0.0.1/local

Informative Salesperson by gwbuhl · 2004-02-26 01:32 · Score: 2, Informative

When I recently bought a Powerbook from my University's Computer Store, the sales person probably told me about three times, that since I was customizing the computer I couldn't return it. This was fine with me, since I knew what I wanted, but it was good of him to be that explicit about the return policy.

I haven't bought a computer from Apple's website, so I don't know how clear they are about the return policy. Whether or not you thin this is a good policy or not, this is an example of "caveat emptor". If your dropping big buck on a piece of hardware, you should probably read all that fine print.

It's not a great policy to have the default be no returns. It would be a more consumer friendly to reserve the right not to accept a return. Maybe this is how it's worded.

No its not wrong by Jeff+Kelly · 2004-02-26 01:41 · Score: 5, Informative

In germany, where i live, we have something called the "Fernabsatzgesetz" regarding purchases made by phone or internet.

The argument goes something like this: Since you have no way of testing the product before you buy it (since you ordered it through the internet) the law grants you the right to return the product within 14 days of your purchase without giving reasons why you'd returned it provided two conditions hold:

1. The product was not damaged by you since you opened it

and

2. The product was not costum built for you.

If either one of these conditions doesn't hold you will have to keep it. A product is custom built if it deviates from the basic or standard product in a way which cannot be undone. So simple upgrades like more memory or a better graphics-adapter don't count as custom built since theses modification can be undone by the vendor.

A personal engraving for your iPod on the other hand would count as custom built.

Of course since in your case it is not a law but only company policy you have to stick to their rules and Apple clearly states that any upgrade counts as custom built and makes the item exempt from the return policy.

So no it's not terrible wrong. Just because you were to lazy to read the terms of service doesn't make the apple bad.

Regards

Jeff

legal in europe by Councilor+Hart · 2004-02-26 01:47 · Score: 2, Informative

I have bought computer components, installed them, removed them and brought them back.
The parts where fully functional, I just changed my mind and wanted an other part. It was -at the time - due to my limited knowledge about available software for the part. So I couldn't use it. The part I eventually bought was delivered with working software.
It was less than 7 days after purchase, so I got a full refund.
It's the law. A customer is allowed to change his mind, bring back the product and demand a refund. Within 7 days.
Then again, I live in europe and consumers have certain rights here.

Make your purchase through a third party by Chase · 2004-02-26 02:04 · Score: 3, Informative

Here is an idea for the future. Buy from a middle party that you can get better service from. I have used PCConnection for years, personally and on a corporate level. I have never had a problem returning custom configured equipment to them. Half the buying we did were Apple systems.

--
-==-

Apple has horrible customer support - accept it by xtal · 2004-02-26 02:09 · Score: 4, Interesting

People have tried writing Steve Jobs, petitions, you name it. They do this all the time with notebooks. Their ram and HD upgrades are a ripoff anyway, I just add that stuff later. Apple won't take the machine back if there is a problem.

Worse, IMHO, is that there is no way to get Apple to send you a machine in the interim while yours is getting fixed. I make money with my hardware, and if I don't have a machine, that costs me a lot of money. So I have to have a backup machine just for that eventuality. Kinda stupid eh?

Hey Apple Executives, if you ever read anything here, FIX THIS BEFORE IT BITES YOU. This is one part of Apple that is really lacking, and coinidentally I'm sure, it's also one that Steve Jobs doesn't have a lot of personal expertise with.

I'm already paying a huge premium for Apple hardware. I would gladly pay a little more for the ability to get a hotswap done - Applecare does not offer this.

--
..don't panic

Maybe I'm Confused..... by RegalBegal · 2004-02-26 02:41 · Score: 2, Informative

but if they have a notice posted doesn't that make you SOL?

Granted, yes it's a rather ridiculous policy. But, if you look at a definition of custom built their system falls under it. Also there IS that notice explaining their policies.

Buyers need to use sense. Especially tech buyers. It's not much tougher than that.

--
"It'll destroy you if you try to make it mean anything to anyone but yourself." - Henry Rollins

Small claims? by Anixamander · 2004-02-26 03:13 · Score: 2, Interesting

What juridiction is this guy in? In my state, small claims court does not allow attorneys. You can still go to civil court for similar amounts and use an attorney, but not small claims. I can't imagine Apple going to court without an attorney. The usual tactic for big companies is to get the case moved to circuit court. This involves months of waiting to get on the docket and can be quite expensive. This story, if true, would be very odd.

--
Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball(TM)

Can I 'evaluate' a Ferrari for the weekend... by ErnstKompressor · 2004-02-26 03:14 · Score: 2, Funny

I can give a Credit Card for the down-- seeing as my CC Co. allows returns -- I got a big date this weekend and I'd like to 'impress' -- sure the car does not "meet my needs and I don't want to be forced to keep it" -- but it is so schweet... and I'm a lazy bastard who can't be bothered to go down to the Ferrari dealership and test drive the thing to realize it is not the right car for me...

--
We apologise for the fault in this post. Those responsible have been sacked. -- Signed RICHARD M. NIXON

Not entirely true by lxt · 2004-02-26 03:34 · Score: 2, Funny

That's not entirely true - if the customer was to return the product damaged, the store can refuse to return it. ...just imagine a French guy walking into a pharmacist and saying "This condom wasn't to my satisfaction - I want to return it".

Re:to all the morons by Anonymous Coward · 2004-02-26 03:45 · Score: 3, Informative

that are too stupid to read (and understand) the point. The poster never claimed that Apple wouldn't give warantee support for a broken product. Apparently he got the product, didn't like it, and tried to send it back. Their web site clearly says they won't take it.

This is not just Apple. Buy anything in the whole store at CompUSA, for example, decide you don't like it, take it back. Guess what? They will take it but they will dock you 15% of the price.

Maybe if the poster was able to read he wouldn't have had this problem.

Re:Is this for real? by Anonymous Coward · 2004-02-26 05:03 · Score: 5, Informative

Apple isn't the only company to stand by this policy. Dell has the exact same policy on their CTO systems. I can understand from a corporate standpoint why this policy exists. If you're going to spend the time configuring a server / workstation system to meet your exact needs - you should have no reason to return it. The only exception is if the thing just doesn't work.

-Steve

Returns vs exchanges by amichalo · 2004-02-26 05:08 · Score: 2, Informative

Since there are few details provided, its hard to say, but I wonder if there wuld have been better luck returning say a 20" iMac for an exchange on a G5 w/ Cinema Display setup.

Try anyone else - Dell, Gateway, etc. Customize the system, then try to return it for a non-warranty reason.

--
I only came here to do two things; kick some ass, and drink some beer...looks like we're almost out of beer.

Re:Is this for real? by Micro$will · 2004-02-26 05:12 · Score: 4, Informative

you're always much better off getting them separately from some other vendor - it's much cheaper.

I agree, but if you ever need warrantee support you'll have to pull that stuff out before putting in the Hardware Diagnostics CD. For some stupid reason my school purchases it's PowerBooks from a 3rd party vendor who puts in extra RAM, but it's not from Apple. Guess who Apple blames when we send it back in with a hardware error code? Somewhat OT question: is there an equivilant to IBM's Gold Service for Apple, or at least some form of Apple Tech support that has a clue?

Makes me reconsider... by HTH+NE1 · 2004-02-26 05:18 · Score: 2, Funny

This makes me reconsider whether or not I should try to save $29 by not getting the 56 Kbps internal modem with a new Dual G5.

--
Oh, say does that Star-Spangled Banner entwine / The myrtle of Venus with Bacchus's vine?

I just have one (two-part) question: by phillymjs · 2004-02-26 05:36 · Score: 5, Insightful

Why is it that people seem to think Apple's written policies simply do not apply to them? And if people act this way with other companies, why does it only seem to be newsworthy when Apple is involved?

First we've got the iPod retards, who apparently think there are at least eighteen months in a year. I mean, why else would they act like Apple owes them something under the terms of a one-year warranty when their battery dies eighteen months after purchase? Are they traveling at the speed of light? Do they use the Martian calendar? Who knows? They also seem to think that Apple told them the battery would never die, but that's another rant.

Now we've got this other tool posting his whine about not being allowed to return a customized machine. The link to Apple's written policy on that is only on the bottom of every page generated by the Apple Store web site, so it's easy to see how he failed to see it. So now he's trying to raise a public stink in the hopes Apple will make an exception for him to quash the bad publicity he's trying to generate.

These people who flagrantly ignore written policies and then get indignant about it must be the same type of people who park their hulking SUVs in spaces marked "Compact Only." I think the next time I see one of those, I'll key it to demonstrate my contempt.

~Philly

Your post should read: by switcha · 2004-02-26 05:37 · Score: 5, Funny

I just got back from expecting the world and all companies it encompasses to revolve around me, even though I spent a couple grand on a product without clicking a link to see the explicitly stated return policy, or lack thereof. Now heap sympathy on me. I am a victim, and I know you all hate big companies and will concur with my short-on-facts synopsis.

--
You know what? ... A little club soda *did* get that out!

Re:Sounds about right. by Anonymous Coward · 2004-02-26 05:37 · Score: 4, Interesting

That's pretty funny... I assume you're probably some retail grunt working part-time at an Apple Store whining because you didn't read the fine print of their holiday bonus promotions.

I just left a job with Apple after about 5 years with them. I can honestly say that I've never worked for a company that treated its employees as well as Apple and the people I worked with were fantastic. In fact, if my wife wasn't offered such a large career opportunity out of state that practically doubled our income, I would still be working with them.

Lucky you live in the US! by GoRK · 2004-02-26 05:55 · Score: 2, Insightful

You are lucky you live in the US where the laws allow idiot consumers taht spend too much money to simply change their mind and return used products. This is most especially true with cars when if you want a custom order from the factory that might not have good resale value if you return it, you have to jump through hoops to convince a dealer to do it.

Call your CC Company by GizmoToy · 2004-02-26 06:31 · Score: 4, Insightful

If you had your order shipped to you, as you must have, you probably ordered it over the internet, correct? You will have then paid with a credit card. Both MasterCard and AmericanExpress (and others, I'm sure) guarentee items you purchase with your card. They state that if the merchant you bought something from won't take it back, they will. You might wanna give them a call to find out the details as they apply to your card.

Good luck!

Re:Sounds about right. by Anonymous Coward · 2004-02-26 06:35 · Score: 4, Interesting

I'm an Apple employee too, and you're full of shit. Employees are treated very well at Apple. What other company can you name that gives everyone a week off at christmas over and above normal vacation? This year, we even got the whole week for thanksgiving, too.

This Doesn't Sound Plausible by shylock0 · 2004-02-26 07:24 · Score: 4, Insightful

This story reeks of fish. True, what he describes is indeed Apple's return policy. But this guy's tale has more holes than a Alpine cheese. I'm not a die-hard Mac user (I run a five-platform company) but this is just anti-Apple bullshit -- specially when you consider that the two companies he picked for comparison, IBM and HP, are two of the only companies that *will* let you return customized equipment, and then only under certain circumstances. Read the fine print at Dell, Sun, a copy of an old pre-HP Compaq return policy (I have one in a filing cabinet here in my office), and you'll find that this is just standard fare. Some will let you return certain customized systems under certain circumstances, but for the most part, you buy something different than today's special, you play for keeps.

IANAL, but I happen to have one on staff. Major corporations, like Apple, almost never appear in small claims. They will either try to have the case moved to a higher court (a slow and expensive process, because it almost always requires that the consumer hire a lawyer), or they will simply not show up and pay whatever fine (the max is usually $5,000) the judge throws at them. Corporate lawyers are expensive. At the rate Apple has to pay its lawyers, it just doesn't make sense for them to show up in court.

-Shylock

--
Statistically speaking, there's a 99.998% chance that my IQ is higher than yours. Get over it.

Re:Is this for real? by kommakazi · 2004-02-26 07:25 · Score: 2, Insightful

And rightfully so because the hardware error code is probably coming from the 3rd party RAM so you should contact the 3rd party RAM vendor rather than Apple in the first place...common sense...

Just try to return your stock Honda by Rommel · 2004-02-26 07:34 · Score: 2

I recently bought a car. There was no "return it for you money back if you don't like it" policy. In fact, the policy is simple: you bought it; you got it.

If I wanted to return it, I would have to sell it as used. Even if all I did was drive it out of the lot, around the block, and back in.

Apple's terms are stated on their website. They explain their return policy in the "returns" section on their website. The same website used to make the purchase. It's not hard; it just takes a minimum of effort to be informed as to the terms of the deal.

Personal experience... by PTBNL · 2004-02-26 07:37 · Score: 2, Informative

Just this past Christmas, I got to deal with this very issue.

A long-time frustrated Windows user (who isn't?), I decided to finally take the plunge and get a 20" iMac.

Well, I got one with a stuck pixel (red) in the middle of the screen. I was incensed, but did my homework and read all about Apple's "tolerance" of such things. I also should note I upgraded the HD and memory when purchasing. Well, after three support calls where I was very inflexible (no yelling, though), I actually got them to take it back, beating both the stuck pixel policy and the "no returns on custom-configured systems" policy. Just stick to your guns, and you can get what you want. On a last note, the iMac they replaced it with has a stuck pixel as well, in a much less prominent place. So the real moral of the story might be "don't bother". :)

Most important right: choice by Rommel · 2004-02-26 07:43 · Score: 2

The most important right is choice. Allow the consumer to choose what to buy and where to buy it. Here in the US (I can't speak to Europe), a consumer has a lot of choices. However, in order to use these choices well, a consumer also has to ask questions and understand the terms of the deal. I can shop at a Mom & Pop, CompUSA, Best Buy, online, or eBay -- just to name a few choices. The terms are different in each circumstance.

Maybe I don't value the XX day change-my-mind warranty. In that case, I can shop someplace else that offers me lower prices or other things I value more.

Caveat emptor

Funny, since Consumer Reports ranks Apple #1 by daveschroeder · 2004-02-26 08:00 · Score: 5, Interesting

Consumer Reports consistently ranks Apple #1 in lowest incidence of repair and best support among all computer manufacturers.

Most recent Consumer Reports report available on their web site (June 2003)
Most recent report, available to CR subscribers, referenced in News.com article (March 2004)

So if Apple's support is "horrible", then I guess everyone else is a lot worse (especially since Dell, the next closest to Apple, got the middle rating on 3 out of 4 support categories, while Apple got the top rating in all categories).

alienware by Suppafly · 2004-02-26 08:24 · Score: 3, Interesting

Alienware and several small time pc sellers take a similar stance on 'customized' hardware, even when the customization is just adding harddrives or ram. It's pretty bad that Apple is doing this though, what would happen is Dell acted like this, every pc they sell is customized based on this logic.

Re:Is this for real? by allgood2 · 2004-02-26 10:24 · Score: 2, Informative

Not that different from other vendors. I'm fairly certain Dell will only accept a return if the box has never been open or if you can find a significant problem and get it esculated rapidly, and have you tried getting HP to accept a return (laughs). All the vendors will support, and provide replacement parts, etc. But typically, a custom configurations falls on under the you "you broke it, you pay for it"--obviously, the systems aren't always shipped broke, but its not like they can put the thing out on the floor, just because you decided you didn't want it any longer.

Little Guy Vs Apple - THE DETAILS by djhanson · 2004-02-26 11:09 · Score: 5, Informative

Sorry for the slim details in the original posting. But, let me try to fill in the blanks, and clarify my position.

Court details: State of Washington, Seattle District Court, Small Claim No. Y3-9978, Trail date was 2/24/2004. Apple sent a corporate employee as their representative.

The purchase was a dual processor Xserve. I upgraded from 512MB of memory to 2GB and from 60GB of disk space to 480GB.

I was totally aware of Apples return policy before placing my order. My dispute is: Does selecting additional memory or disk drives really constitute a product that is "custom configured to your specifications". According to the defense that Apple used, even adding one stick of memory would have made it custom configured. My upgrades were selected from a standard menu on their website. I didn't call and ask for some esoteric tape drive or anything like that. In court someone brought up the analogy of buying a car. My response to that was, if I am buying a brand new car off the lot, and I ask for an automatic transmission (which usually costs more), I still have a stock car. No one is going to say that I bought a customized car. Knowing what I know now, I would order the hard drives and memory separately and install them myself after the 10-day evaluation period.

I appreciate the comment made by one poster regarding how the sales clerk made the return policy very clear. I think that Apple's website should be as clear. Maybe "Custom Configured" icons could be located next to the items that will affect the return policy. Apple's defense claimed that it states at the top of the web page "Configure your Xserve" and that this should be enough of an indicator. But, options included on this very same page also include the "Mac OS X Server Maintenance Program", "AppleCare Service and Parts Kits for Xserve" and AppleCare support Plans. Surely selecting these items wouldn't constitute a custom configured product. And at no other time during the purchase process, including my invoice receipt from Apple did it indicate that I was purchasing a custom configured product that could not be returned. I certainly don't think that Apple deliberately sets out to trap customers into purchasing items that can't be refunded. But, on the other hand their policies and procedures sure don't give the impression of being well thought out, or cohesive.

As for the concern about whether I was returning the product because I just changed my mind or it because it was broke. I'm not sure if the reason really matters, unless Apple wants to use the information to possibly make changes in their product or policies. After all, their policy does state "if you are not satisfied". It says nothing about have to give reasons. But, since people are curious .... The hardware worked without fail for the 10 days that we evaluated machine. In fact the hardware is the reason that we were attracted to the Xserve. The problems were related to the software. We found Apple's customized version of BSD Unix to be difficult to work with. We would add commonly used Open Source software and it would break some Apple proprietary interface, or vice versa. We really tried hard for the 10 days to make this machine work for us. And we found it frustrating every step of the way. I attribute this to Apple's proprietary way of doing things. But, the clincher for us was when we started with a clean install of OS 10, added Webmin (a commonly used remote admin program), and the server would crash when trying to remotely reboot it, from the shell prompt. This was very easily reproducible. And also totally unacceptable since the final destination for this box is a data center where hands-on reboots are a rare event. I know that I could have worked with Apple and probably gotten a patch for this issue. However, it seemed serious enough for me to decide to return the product, and look elsewhere.

I did give serious thought to installing Yellow Dog Linux on the machine and not even dealing with Apple's version of BSD Unix, but after havi

Re:Little Guy Vs Apple - THE DETAILS by Selecter · 2004-02-26 12:02 · Score: 2, Insightful

Well, there's plenty of folks that will take that nasty defective Xserve off your hands.
Maybe you can engrave it like somone suggested they could do with the Va. Tech G5's and get mo money.
Re:Little Guy Vs Apple - THE DETAILS by djcatnip · 2004-02-26 12:37 · Score: 2, Insightful

My dispute is: Does selecting additional memory or disk drives really constitute a product that is "custom configured to your specifications". According to the defense that Apple used, even adding one stick of memory would have made it custom configured.

These servers are largely manufactured by machines, at a pretty fast pace. Humans are part of the process, but at a minimal level.. it's how prices can be kept down to a reasonable level. You know how this goes. When you want to upgrade the machine... Configure To Order / Build To Order ... that means someone has to crack open the box, unpack the machine, crack the server open, and manually do stuff to it to make it the way you asked for it... uncrack the server, and repack the box, uncrack the shipping box, and then send it to you. If you wanted a stock server, it would have gone from the assembly line to your door, most likely. Sorry your experience was not the one you were expecting.

--
I make these: http://beatseqr.com
Re:Little Guy Vs Apple - THE DETAILS by vocaro · 2004-02-26 13:28 · Score: 2, Insightful

My dispute is: Does selecting additional memory or disk drives really constitute a product that is "custom configured to your specifications".
Well, are the specs of the computer you purchased different from the standard specs? Did you personally specify them? The answer is yes to both questions, so you did indeed order a product "custom configured to your specifications". I would side with Apple on this one, but whether this non-return policy is a good way to keep customers is another story.
In court someone brought up the analogy of buying a car. My response to that was, if I am buying a brand new car off the lot, and I ask for an automatic transmission (which usually costs more), I still have a stock car.
Your version of this analogy does not match what you did. For example, when you go to Apple's website and shop for an Xserve, you can buy either a single- or dual-processor model. This is analagous to going to a car dealer and selecting either the manual or automatic transmission version of a car. In either case, the dealer has the model already in stock; all they have to do is pull it out of inventory and give it to you. However, when you asked Apple to give you a different amount of memory and disk space, and then asked them to take it back, you were having them do more work because they may have to take out the memory and disk drive -- not everyone is going to want the same specs you did. A closer analogy here is more like having the car dealer put deluxe all-weather tires on your car. When you return them, the dealer may have to remove them in order to sell that car again.

Trevor
Re:Little Guy Vs Apple - THE DETAILS by fname · 2004-02-26 17:14 · Score: 2, Insightful

I think your last line summed it up nicely, "But, I have learned my lesson, and from now on I will be calling and verifying such assumptions before I make a purchase."

Contrary to some of the others assailing you for making a false set of assumptions, I can clearly see your point of view. A customer-oriented company would take your experience into account and design their storefront to make it more clear what the return policy is for a particular piece of equipment. For example, a reminder of their policy on the order confirmation page would be very suitable.

Here's a question for you-- what are you doing with the XServe now?

Re:Is this for real? by kommakazi · 2004-02-26 15:37 · Score: 2, Informative

Yeah I really don't know what you're talking about, all recent Apple computers (define recent as "post-beige") I've worked with have taken any sort of RAM I've stuck in them so long as it was the correct type/speed for the machine... The only possible problem lies with certain RAM chips that have extra "features" Macs don't utilize and therefore will cause the Mac to reject the chip...but really once again it's simply a matter of knowing what chip features your Mac will accept or reject before you go buying RAM... this can very easily be found out at www.xlr8yourmac.com or other various web resources...in short - use "common sense" and do a little "research" before you go buying something and you will never run into problems...I can't believe I actually have to tell someone this...

The rules of evidence don't apply in Small Claims by grolaw · 2004-02-26 16:59 · Score: 2, Informative

Get an attorney and seek a "trial de novo" in a "real" court. The Apple Co, cannot disclaim two of the implied warranties (fitness for an intended purpose and merchantability) for a certain period after purchase.

MOVE NOW!

Written on a 12" pBook

Re:Yeah, well you wait a month to get your machine by denisonbigred · 2004-02-26 18:04 · Score: 2, Insightful

If your entire living is dependant on your computer and you don't have at least 1 extra computer and all of your files backed up, then you are very very foolish indeed. You could easily and legitimatly write off an extra computer as a buisiness expense. Also, what took a month to be serviced for your computer? The one time I had a problem Apple paid to have my computer overnighted both ways and I had it back within 4 days (including sunday).

--

"There's no way to rule innocent men. The only power any government has is the power to crack down on criminals."

Re:Is this for real? by Maserati · 2004-02-26 19:19 · Score: 4, Insightful

Pshaw.

It's not really "certain chips", but you are on to something. The manufacturers in the cheap brackets will do all sorts of thing to move the product they need to move. I've seen chips relabelled, I've seen underclocked chips; my dual 1.25s wouldn't even recognize these even after multiple replacmeents). My main point is that the reputable manufacturers won't sell you a chip with enough of the same specs to be the part you ordered, but still not be a Mac-compatible part.

Starting with the first G4s I've had many bosses purchase bare units from Apple to save money - which is ok - then try to save more money by buying the cheapest RAM that would fit the specs. Most (65%-ish) of these machines became unstable - system freezes. I pointed out that several people working on things that made us money were missing deadlines. We went with the good stuff, Kingston in my opinion and experience, and the machines became stable.

I've been dealing with RAM issues in modern Powermacs (G4/G5) and they're all amazingly sensitive to RAM. Use either quality third-party memory, Apple RAM, or risk regular core dumps. I just had a 1GB DIMM fail the hardware tests out of the box, Apple did overnight me a new one after some prodding (new guy, the senior sales rep got back from a conference and overnighted me the RAM). Every manufacturer ships the occasional bad chip, but in a professional environment you have to maximize reliability.

You probably thought they were all OS problems you couldn't fix and blamed Apple for anyway.

--
Veteran, Bermuda Triangle Expeditionary Force, 1992-1951

Re:Yeah, well you wait a month to get your machine by falcon5768 · 2004-02-27 04:51 · Score: 2, Insightful

funny I got my machine (a iBook with a complete motherboard and Hard Drive failure) back in 5 days... some month wait there.

oh and BTW it had memory and a airport card added by me, if you look at their website your allowed to add these things, it even has a section for user installed parts. Custom orders are getting a superdrive in a computer that doesnt normally have it, in which case its very understandable why they wont take it back... what the hell are they going to do with it once it gets there, cant resell it as new, take too long to pull the superdrive out of it. A very fair policy IMHO

--

"Slashdot, where telling the truth is overrated but lying is insightful."

Custom config. by Anonymous Coward · 2004-02-27 09:13 · Score: 2, Informative

The moment you changed the basic config, the computer became custom config, something that the customer (you) specified. What is so hard to understand here?

Did you have problems with the computer? If not, I have to side with Apple on this one. If you have had a problem, and Apple had refused to deal with your problem, then Apple would have been wrong. Judging by the court's decision, probably Apple is right.

IT's all PR, not law. by mindstrm · 2004-02-27 09:28 · Score: 2, Informative

This was small claims court... not a big precedent.. and the result is not surprising.

First.. before you state "Oh, everyone else takes them back!"... With the exception of certain types of items in certain states, like cars, homes, etc... the sale of a consumer item is automatically final unless stated otherwise. I'm not talking about implied warrantees or anything like that... obviously if the thing you bought was sold under false pretense, or misrepresented, or is just plain broken, the retailer must take it back.

If, however, the device was sold properly, and functions as it was supposed to, the retailer is under no obligation to take it back. If I sell you something at the grocery store, I don't have to take a returned item just because you didn't open it.

Now, as a matter of good customer service, most large vendors DO take unopened returns... the cost to them is minimal, and it generates goodwill...

At issue here was whether apple's own policy was being violated. .. it's a valid question.

It's not LINUX! DUH! by Anonymous Coward · 2004-02-27 11:19 · Score: 2, Insightful

The thing that you have to realize when using OS X server, is NOT to fight the native tools. Don't use WebMin to reboot an XServe remotely, use Apple's server admin tool. Why? Because WebMin isn't designed to administer OS X Server machines, and Server Admin is.

This is the biggest stumbling block that old-time UNIX weenies will have with Macs in the next few years. On the mac, DO NOT pop a terminal window and start editing the config files by hand unless you know what you're doing. I know that you like doing it that way on other UNIX/UNIX-like systems, but that's because the GUI admin tools for those systems are seriously lame, as a rule.

Note that knowing how to do a similar operation on Solaris or Linux is NOT the same thing as knowing what you're doing on the Mac. If you insist on treating it like a generic UNIX box, you're just going to fuck it up.

Re:Gold Service or Clue by quibbler · 2004-02-27 22:59 · Score: 3, Informative

Yes. Apple has a (very) highline support service 'AppleCare Pro'. You get ahold of clueful people every call, much better treatment. On the other hand, the extended warranty you get aka 'AppleCare' also sometimes gets you more equal than equal treatment.

Apple's support people are some of the best I've ever seen once you get past the 'warm body' level. Apple like everyone else is dealing with uncountable swarms of people who are unable to read dialog boxes.

Frankly though, if you spend the time looking through Apple's knowledge base, don't find a fix and call them (and explain the steps you've performed) you'll move 'up the ladder' much more quickly.

Slashdot Mirror

Just What is a Custom Configured Server?

92 of 318 comments (clear)