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Just What is a Custom Configured Server?
djhanson wonders: "I just got back from a small claims court proceeding against Apple Computer. They successfully won their argument in front of the court that selecting additional memory and disk drives for a computer/server at the time of purchase, off of their website, constitutes a 'custom configured computer built to the customer's specifications'. Said computer is therefore not eligible under the company policy to be returned. Has anyone else heard of such a thing? As near as I can tell, Apple is the only company that has such a restrictive policy. I called both IBM and HP, and neither of those companies has such a policy. Am I the only one that thinks there is something terribly wrong with a policy like this?
Any opinions? Suggestions? Comments? Whatever?"
on the (limited) information you've given it does seem a little unfair to you though, technically, the judgement was correct. You configured the machine, you are a customer, therefore it is a customer configured machine.
There should be a warning on their site when you do configure the machine yourself that you won't be able to do certain things.
an interesting point would be, what if you used the same customer configuration system to add in say some extra software or another battery for a laptop?
Where do you live that you have a small claims court open at quarter to six in the morning? Doesn't seem like anywhere in the USA or Canada, which may cause unforeseen errors in our legal advice.
Why not write about your experience in a place where thousands of geeks across the world could be disgusted by Apple's slimy business practices?
:)
My blog
Read the small print next time. I think it's reasonable for them to claim that it is a custom configuration, but refusing to support it when they have done the assembly is pretty disgraceful.
If I seem short sighted, it is because I stand on the shoulders of midgets
I go to Columbia University and here it's par for the course to hate our university. I'm soaking it up. Would you recommend considering a job at Apple as a future career move?
I have certainly returned custom apple systems in the past and have not had any issue whatsoever with it. How long had you had it before trying to return it? Where is your court docket? You are way to lite on details for me to consider this anything but false at this point. Feel free to prove me wrong however.
Bad Panda! No Bamboo for you! In matters of importance ACs will not be responded to. Want to say something critical,OK
This may have changed, but Apple has (or had) the largest margins on their machines; something around 25-28% or so. This was the average along their entire line, with laptop having the top margins and iMacs eMacs having the lowest margins.
As for the lawsuit, well it does seem a bit shady that adding RAM is gonna screw you. Maybe there is something more going on here that is not being disclosed?
Vote monkeys into Congress. They are cheaper and more trustworthy.
Oh please...
If OJ ever finds the real killers...
If Nader ever gets elected president...
If Pete Rose ever gets into baseball's HOF...
If SCO ever wins against IBM...
If Osama ever turns himself in...
If I ever get laid...
Apple has a nice product, but let's face it, we are in absolutely no danger of them becoming a dominant force in general computing.
This may have changed, but Apple has (or had) the largest margins on their machines; something around 25-28% or so. This was the average along their entire line, with laptop having the top margins and iMacs eMacs having the lowest margins.
You are right that Apple's margins are in that range. According to Apple's Annual 10-K report, the company had a gross margin of 27.5%. But that is only their gross margin (the difference between the price of the item and the cost of the materials in that item). That figure leaves out a number of costs that Apple pays. Out of that 27.5% comes the 8.6% of sales that Apple spends on R&D. Another 19.5% of sales is spent on SG&A (Selling, general, and adminsitrative). Note that Apple's 27.5% is not even that high as the average across the S&P 500 is nearly 50%
This leaves Apple with a net profit margin of only 0.4% which works out to about $8 in profit on each of the 3 million computers they sold in 2003 (Compare that to Dell's 6% net margin to see who is really making money off their customers).
I won't excuse Apple for not warning customers about the return policy in more forceful terms. For custom configured purchases they really should have a bold-face warning in the purchase script that is triggered by what Apple considers "custom configured". Yet, nobody can claim that they make to much profit from their computers or fault them trying to contain costs.
Two wrongs don't make a right, but three lefts do.
- What country/state are you in?
- WHY were you trying to return the computer? Was it defective or did you just not want it after you got it?
- How long did you have the computer before you asked Apple to accept a return? For that matter, DID you ask Apple to accept a return or did you just file suit?
- If you did ask Apple to accept a return, how far did you escalate the matter? Did you stop at the first person who told you "no" or did you ask for that person's supervisor?
If I was representing you in this matter, these are just the first of the questions I would be asking you, for two reasons: First, it is information that establishes whether you have a case. Second, they are the first questions the OTHER SIDE will ask you.Laws affecting technology will always be bad until enough techies become lawyers.
I must be missing something here. You bought a new computer, paid for the computer, took delivery of the computer, then later changed your mind and decided you don't want the computer. Why on earth would you expect them to give you your money back?
If the computer was damaged or malfunctioning, Apple have a warranty program that covers that, they'll repair or replace the computer at no charge to you. They even pay for the shipping.
Come on people, this isn't an abuse of consumer rights, it's an abuse of the court system because some guy couldn't make up his mind about what he wanted.
Got any other anecdotes we can use to bash "The Man" who still seems to just "keep us down?"
NetInfo connection failed for server 127.0.0.1/local
In germany, where i live, we have something called the "Fernabsatzgesetz" regarding purchases made by phone or internet.
The argument goes something like this: Since you have no way of testing the product before you buy it (since you ordered it through the internet) the law grants you the right to return the product within 14 days of your purchase without giving reasons why you'd returned it provided two conditions hold:
1. The product was not damaged by you since you opened it
and
2. The product was not costum built for you.
If either one of these conditions doesn't hold you will have to keep it. A product is custom built if it deviates from the basic or standard product in a way which cannot be undone. So simple upgrades like more memory or a better graphics-adapter don't count as custom built since theses modification can be undone by the vendor.
A personal engraving for your iPod on the other hand would count as custom built.
Of course since in your case it is not a law but only company policy you have to stick to their rules and Apple clearly states that any upgrade counts as custom built and makes the item exempt from the return policy.
So no it's not terrible wrong. Just because you were to lazy to read the terms of service doesn't make the apple bad.
Regards
Jeff
Here is an idea for the future. Buy from a middle party that you can get better service from. I have used PCConnection for years, personally and on a corporate level. I have never had a problem returning custom configured equipment to them. Half the buying we did were Apple systems.
-==-
People have tried writing Steve Jobs, petitions, you name it. They do this all the time with notebooks. Their ram and HD upgrades are a ripoff anyway, I just add that stuff later. Apple won't take the machine back if there is a problem.
Worse, IMHO, is that there is no way to get Apple to send you a machine in the interim while yours is getting fixed. I make money with my hardware, and if I don't have a machine, that costs me a lot of money. So I have to have a backup machine just for that eventuality. Kinda stupid eh?
Hey Apple Executives, if you ever read anything here, FIX THIS BEFORE IT BITES YOU. This is one part of Apple that is really lacking, and coinidentally I'm sure, it's also one that Steve Jobs doesn't have a lot of personal expertise with.
I'm already paying a huge premium for Apple hardware. I would gladly pay a little more for the ability to get a hotswap done - Applecare does not offer this.
..don't panic
that are too stupid to read (and understand) the point. The poster never claimed that Apple wouldn't give warantee support for a broken product. Apparently he got the product, didn't like it, and tried to send it back. Their web site clearly says they won't take it.
This is not just Apple. Buy anything in the whole store at CompUSA, for example, decide you don't like it, take it back. Guess what? They will take it but they will dock you 15% of the price.
Maybe if the poster was able to read he wouldn't have had this problem.
That's why you never tell a company that you have done anything with their product that they do not expressly approve. This applies to everybody, not just Apple.
However, case in point involving Apple. The video card in my G5 was bad. I'd get these green pixels flashing on the screen when I played a DVD or a video game. The video card also failed the Apple hardware test. So, I called AppleCare, and made absolutely certain not to tell them about the extra RAM I bought from Crucial and installed in the computer myself. Every time they asked if I'd modified the hardware in any way, I'd say "no, no, I don't even know how to do that..."
They had me bring my G5 to a local Apple authorized service center, and they swapped out the card, and it works fine now. Of course, I removed the extra RAM before I brought it to the service center...
We don't have a state-run media we have a media-run state.
Apple isn't the only company to stand by this policy. Dell has the exact same policy on their CTO systems. I can understand from a corporate standpoint why this policy exists. If you're going to spend the time configuring a server / workstation system to meet your exact needs - you should have no reason to return it. The only exception is if the thing just doesn't work.
-Steve
I agree, but if you ever need warrantee support you'll have to pull that stuff out before putting in the Hardware Diagnostics CD. For some stupid reason my school purchases it's PowerBooks from a 3rd party vendor who puts in extra RAM, but it's not from Apple. Guess who Apple blames when we send it back in with a hardware error code? Somewhat OT question: is there an equivilant to IBM's Gold Service for Apple, or at least some form of Apple Tech support that has a clue?
Why is it that people seem to think Apple's written policies simply do not apply to them? And if people act this way with other companies, why does it only seem to be newsworthy when Apple is involved?
First we've got the iPod retards, who apparently think there are at least eighteen months in a year. I mean, why else would they act like Apple owes them something under the terms of a one-year warranty when their battery dies eighteen months after purchase? Are they traveling at the speed of light? Do they use the Martian calendar? Who knows? They also seem to think that Apple told them the battery would never die, but that's another rant.
Now we've got this other tool posting his whine about not being allowed to return a customized machine. The link to Apple's written policy on that is only on the bottom of every page generated by the Apple Store web site, so it's easy to see how he failed to see it. So now he's trying to raise a public stink in the hopes Apple will make an exception for him to quash the bad publicity he's trying to generate.
These people who flagrantly ignore written policies and then get indignant about it must be the same type of people who park their hulking SUVs in spaces marked "Compact Only." I think the next time I see one of those, I'll key it to demonstrate my contempt.
~Philly
I just got back from expecting the world and all companies it encompasses to revolve around me, even though I spent a couple grand on a product without clicking a link to see the explicitly stated return policy, or lack thereof. Now heap sympathy on me. I am a victim, and I know you all hate big companies and will concur with my short-on-facts synopsis.
You know what?
That's pretty funny... I assume you're probably some retail grunt working part-time at an Apple Store whining because you didn't read the fine print of their holiday bonus promotions.
I just left a job with Apple after about 5 years with them. I can honestly say that I've never worked for a company that treated its employees as well as Apple and the people I worked with were fantastic. In fact, if my wife wasn't offered such a large career opportunity out of state that practically doubled our income, I would still be working with them.
If you had your order shipped to you, as you must have, you probably ordered it over the internet, correct? You will have then paid with a credit card. Both MasterCard and AmericanExpress (and others, I'm sure) guarentee items you purchase with your card. They state that if the merchant you bought something from won't take it back, they will. You might wanna give them a call to find out the details as they apply to your card.
Good luck!
I'm an Apple employee too, and you're full of shit. Employees are treated very well at Apple. What other company can you name that gives everyone a week off at christmas over and above normal vacation? This year, we even got the whole week for thanksgiving, too.
IANAL, but I happen to have one on staff. Major corporations, like Apple, almost never appear in small claims. They will either try to have the case moved to a higher court (a slow and expensive process, because it almost always requires that the consumer hire a lawyer), or they will simply not show up and pay whatever fine (the max is usually $5,000) the judge throws at them. Corporate lawyers are expensive. At the rate Apple has to pay its lawyers, it just doesn't make sense for them to show up in court.
-Shylock
Statistically speaking, there's a 99.998% chance that my IQ is higher than yours. Get over it.
Consumer Reports consistently ranks Apple #1 in lowest incidence of repair and best support among all computer manufacturers.
Most recent Consumer Reports report available on their web site (June 2003)
Most recent report, available to CR subscribers, referenced in News.com article (March 2004)
So if Apple's support is "horrible", then I guess everyone else is a lot worse (especially since Dell, the next closest to Apple, got the middle rating on 3 out of 4 support categories, while Apple got the top rating in all categories).
Alienware and several small time pc sellers take a similar stance on 'customized' hardware, even when the customization is just adding harddrives or ram. It's pretty bad that Apple is doing this though, what would happen is Dell acted like this, every pc they sell is customized based on this logic.
Court details: State of Washington, Seattle District Court, Small Claim No. Y3-9978, Trail date was 2/24/2004. Apple sent a corporate employee as their representative.
The purchase was a dual processor Xserve. I upgraded from 512MB of memory to 2GB and from 60GB of disk space to 480GB.
I was totally aware of Apples return policy before placing my order. My dispute is: Does selecting additional memory or disk drives really constitute a product that is "custom configured to your specifications". According to the defense that Apple used, even adding one stick of memory would have made it custom configured. My upgrades were selected from a standard menu on their website. I didn't call and ask for some esoteric tape drive or anything like that. In court someone brought up the analogy of buying a car. My response to that was, if I am buying a brand new car off the lot, and I ask for an automatic transmission (which usually costs more), I still have a stock car. No one is going to say that I bought a customized car. Knowing what I know now, I would order the hard drives and memory separately and install them myself after the 10-day evaluation period.
I appreciate the comment made by one poster regarding how the sales clerk made the return policy very clear. I think that Apple's website should be as clear. Maybe "Custom Configured" icons could be located next to the items that will affect the return policy. Apple's defense claimed that it states at the top of the web page "Configure your Xserve" and that this should be enough of an indicator. But, options included on this very same page also include the "Mac OS X Server Maintenance Program", "AppleCare Service and Parts Kits for Xserve" and AppleCare support Plans. Surely selecting these items wouldn't constitute a custom configured product. And at no other time during the purchase process, including my invoice receipt from Apple did it indicate that I was purchasing a custom configured product that could not be returned. I certainly don't think that Apple deliberately sets out to trap customers into purchasing items that can't be refunded. But, on the other hand their policies and procedures sure don't give the impression of being well thought out, or cohesive.
As for the concern about whether I was returning the product because I just changed my mind or it because it was broke. I'm not sure if the reason really matters, unless Apple wants to use the information to possibly make changes in their product or policies. After all, their policy does state "if you are not satisfied". It says nothing about have to give reasons. But, since people are curious .... The hardware worked without fail for the 10 days that we evaluated machine. In fact the hardware is the reason that we were attracted to the Xserve. The problems were related to the software. We found Apple's customized version of BSD Unix to be difficult to work with. We would add commonly used Open Source software and it would break some Apple proprietary interface, or vice versa. We really tried hard for the 10 days to make this machine work for us. And we found it frustrating every step of the way. I attribute this to Apple's proprietary way of doing things. But, the clincher for us was when we started with a clean install of OS 10, added Webmin (a commonly used remote admin program), and the server would crash when trying to remotely reboot it, from the shell prompt. This was very easily reproducible. And also totally unacceptable since the final destination for this box is a data center where hands-on reboots are a rare event. I know that I could have worked with Apple and probably gotten a patch for this issue. However, it seemed serious enough for me to decide to return the product, and look elsewhere.
I did give serious thought to installing Yellow Dog Linux on the machine and not even dealing with Apple's version of BSD Unix, but after havi
Pshaw.
It's not really "certain chips", but you are on to something. The manufacturers in the cheap brackets will do all sorts of thing to move the product they need to move. I've seen chips relabelled, I've seen underclocked chips; my dual 1.25s wouldn't even recognize these even after multiple replacmeents). My main point is that the reputable manufacturers won't sell you a chip with enough of the same specs to be the part you ordered, but still not be a Mac-compatible part.
Starting with the first G4s I've had many bosses purchase bare units from Apple to save money - which is ok - then try to save more money by buying the cheapest RAM that would fit the specs. Most (65%-ish) of these machines became unstable - system freezes. I pointed out that several people working on things that made us money were missing deadlines. We went with the good stuff, Kingston in my opinion and experience, and the machines became stable.
I've been dealing with RAM issues in modern Powermacs (G4/G5) and they're all amazingly sensitive to RAM. Use either quality third-party memory, Apple RAM, or risk regular core dumps. I just had a 1GB DIMM fail the hardware tests out of the box, Apple did overnight me a new one after some prodding (new guy, the senior sales rep got back from a conference and overnighted me the RAM). Every manufacturer ships the occasional bad chip, but in a professional environment you have to maximize reliability.
You probably thought they were all OS problems you couldn't fix and blamed Apple for anyway.
Veteran, Bermuda Triangle Expeditionary Force, 1992-1951
Apple's support people are some of the best I've ever seen once you get past the 'warm body' level. Apple like everyone else is dealing with uncountable swarms of people who are unable to read dialog boxes.
Frankly though, if you spend the time looking through Apple's knowledge base, don't find a fix and call them (and explain the steps you've performed) you'll move 'up the ladder' much more quickly.