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Linux the Tortoise to Microsoft's Hare?

LukePieStalker writes "TheStreet.com is running a story by Ronna Abramson that makes a case for Linux cutting into Microsoft's server business and forcing Redmond to trim margins. A particular vulnerability is seen in overseas markets, but the heat should be turned up everywhere once Unix replacements are pretty far along by then end of next year. A quote from one CTO: [Linux is] "going to force Microsoft to spend more time on security and stability, and less time on adding new features.""

64 of 548 comments (clear)

  1. Linux will beat Windows in the security battle. by Ckwop · · Score: 3, Insightful

    No matter how many security researchers Microsoft get to look at their source there will always be more looking at linux. The reason: It's open source..

    Microsoft can't compete against that so I suspect they'll lose their % of the server market quite rapidly in the next two years.

    Simon.

    1. Re:Linux will beat Windows in the security battle. by jamshid42 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Not only that, but if you find a security flaw in Windows and report it, either Microsoft ignores you or they threaten you with the DMCA for "hacking" the OS. If you find something in Linux, at least a dozen developers hop onto the problem and get it resolved within a week (or less).

      --
      /. - Proof that Sturgeon's Law is true...
    2. Re:Linux will beat Windows in the security battle. by JeanBaptiste · · Score: 2, Insightful

      "I suspect they'll lose their % of the server market quite rapidly in the next two years."

      mmmmmmm I bet they dont.

      why? marketing.

      sad but true.

    3. Re:Linux will beat Windows in the security battle. by alext · · Score: 3, Insightful

      But when Microsoft's "source" is Dotnet a whole class of security vulnerabilities will be eliminated that could still be latent in Linux or Linux C/C++ applications.

      Also Dotnet gives MS the kind of integrated security environment that is not even on the horizon for Linux.

      So let's not be too complacent here - Dotnet will increase MS's agility and Linux will have no coherent response, right now all we have is a bunch of disparate "platform" initiatives. Although by a vast margin the greatest investment is for the Java platform on Linux, in general this fact has yet to be recognised in terms of any strategic decisions for the OS and associated applications.

    4. Re:Linux will beat Windows in the security battle. by Abcd1234 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      But it also places a lot more of the responsibility for security on the administrator's head,

      But it also means that, at any given time, you can know *exactly* what's running on your machine, because nothing is hidden from you. Can you say the same for a more closed system like Windows?

      Most hacks for Windows aren't widely exploited until after a patch is released anyway,

      Sorry, but this is bullshit. First, if a hack is available in the wild, do you really think *you'll* be the first person to know about it? As the person mentioned in this article points out, black hats often have exploits weeks or months before patches are available.

      whereas on Linux it's often in reverse

      And why no earth would Linux be so special? Or, perhaps it's Windows that supposedly "special". No, sorry, but the two situations are the same, no matter what MS would have you believe. Security fixes are almost always reactive, whether you like it or not.

      Linux just better allows you to micromanage things than Windows, which can either be a good or a bad thing depending on the skill of the admin.

      Well, duh. But if you have an idiot admin, security is probably the least of your worries.

      Now, personally, I'd rather have an open, easily auditable system that has reasonable defaults but allows me to tweak things if necessary. Windows provides only the second of those three features (and even that's debateable... open RPC ports, anyone?)... a decent Linux distribution can provide all three. Now, sure, Linux can provide plenty of rope to hang ones-self with, but I'd rather have my fate in my own hands than to trust a company who thinks they know what's best for me.

    5. Re:Linux will beat Windows in the security battle. by tangent3 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      In the article here it was mentioned that script kiddies were already exploting RPC/DCOM months before the first eEye first published it.

    6. Re:Linux will beat Windows in the security battle. by MagikSlinger · · Score: 4, Insightful
      But when Microsoft's "source" is Dotnet a whole class of security vulnerabilities will be eliminated...

      *splutter*

      .Net is going to make Melissa et al look like a minor cold compared to the digital Pearl Harbor that is .Net. This thing was built without security in mind, then it was "Oh, we need to secure it!". Cringely had a good column about this just last week.

      SOAP (the communication protocol of .Net) was designed to deliberately to bypass firewalls by using the HTTP port by default. That alone is enough reason to shut down .Net. If you cannot block off .Net communication without breaking another (relatively more secure) protocol, you'll either cripple .Net or a lot of companies will be caught with their pants down.

      Listen, I know you're all excited after reading the .NET and C# technology papers, etc. But I've been victimized by MS technology for nearly 15 years (Oh dear, has it been that long already??), and I can guarantee you: .NET will not provide half of what they claim it can do.

      --
      The bitter lessons of a veteran coder: http://bitterprogrammer.blogspot.com
    7. Re:Linux will beat Windows in the security battle. by MagikSlinger · · Score: 2, Insightful
      Why was this modded up? Just mindless MS bashing with no facts to back it up.
      *ahem*

      Now, granted, I did make a connection that SOAP was the only protocol for inter-device communication in .Net (it isn't). But considering Microsoft has been encouraging developers to think about making every .NET service SOAP enabled, it's hard not to wonder...

      .Net, conceptually, sounds neat but Microsoft still has a single, non-networked PC mentality. I didn't even mention Linux/Apache/PHP/Java/etc becuase it's not about them being better or worse. It's about the fact that .Net was an idea pushed out as a "neat idea" without thinking through its implications.

      I'd read the first things Microsoft officially published about it back when they were hot of the keyboards of the developers. .NET is a neat idea, but the security implications are scary. .NET applications are expected to exchange code and run remotely. They have a grand vision of .NET code being swapped across the planet and running on everything from your cellphone to mission critical servers. Creating a monoculture where a malicious worm can spread like wildfire before anyone can even react is a frightning thought.

      Saying "Well, it's up to the developer to make it secure" is like saying "Well, it's up to the sysadmin to apply the Blaster patches". They should, but they won't.

      --
      The bitter lessons of a veteran coder: http://bitterprogrammer.blogspot.com
  2. Could someone... by jwthompson2 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    ... explain this title to me...is the implication that Linux is slow at innovating or something? Or are they focusing on the 'steady' part from the old fable? The analogy doesn't quite seem to fit since Linux is both 'fast' and 'steady'...Besides Microsoft could be better anologized to a 'retarded turtle' that is both slow and disoriented/unfocused whereas linux is much more like a determined 'rabbit' which is both 'fast' and steady/focused.

    Some may not agree with me on the 'focused' point but that's ok, they probably are using the 'retarded turtle' anyways.

    --
    Even if I knew that tomorrow the world would go to pieces, I would still plant my apple tree. -Martin Luther
    1. Re:Could someone... by 74nova · · Score: 3, Insightful

      judging by the article, i think the turtle and hare stuff refers to a sort of market share measurement. seems to me the idea is that microsoft is slowly (but steadily and increasinly) losing server share to linux. market share, not development/innovation.

      --
      use your turn signal! you people act like it's divulging information to the enemy
    2. Re:Could someone... by miu · · Score: 2, Insightful
      Besides Microsoft could be better analogized to a 'retarded turtle' that is both slow and disoriented/unfocused whereas linux is much more like a determined 'rabbit' which is both 'fast' and steady/focused.

      I see this attitude on /. a lot and it kinda surprises me. People underestimate the ruthlessness and ability of the corporate juggernauts.

      I hate the way that corporations go about maintaining their power, but they are very focused on it, and they recognized what the dangers where quite some time ago and are launching preemptive strikes all over the place.

      Bland optimism about historical inevitability and the acceptance of "facts" about corporate stupidity, sluggishness and blindness were the sins of the New Economy. That movement fell apart and the real core of it (consumer empowerment and portability) are under attack by MS, Comcast, Disney, AOL, Sony, Verizon, and others.

      I'd compare MS more to a cornered and dangerous predator: smart, powerful, and unpredictable. Don't make the mistake of underestimating them.

      --

      [Set Cain on fire and steal his lute.]
  3. Not Linux by Walkiry · · Score: 3, Insightful

    [Linux is] "going to force Microsoft to spend more time on security and stability, and less time on adding new features."

    Not specifically linux, but the market. ANYONE who had come along providing that focus with good functionality would have had the same effect. Linux has rewritten a few rules with the GPL and the way the beast is created and mantained, but ultimately the reason why the market has accepted those is because they provide greater security and greater stability.

    Microsoft would have also focused there if they had tried to meet their user's demands instead of telling them they should meet Microsoft's goals.

    --
    ---- Take the Space Quiz!
  4. Mantrims by rf0 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Microsoft: Release First Patch Often

    Linux: Release when stablish and patch when needed

    Well IMHO anyway

    Rus

  5. MS is still an innovator - in other ways by gregwbrooks · · Score: 4, Insightful
    Adaptation of an earlier post on another thread, but the point is worth repeating.

    :::putting on flame-proof suit:::

    Microsoft is an enormous innovator and will innovate in some manner to push back the threat of *nix. In fact, they may be one of the greatest innovators in the history of tech companies. They're just not innovating in an altruistic, philanthropic or technical way that most /. readers relate to.

    From a business perspective, strategic marketing and business practices can and should be part of the innovation mix. If I'm Microsoft can package technology in such a way that it maximizes uptake, positions it as the de facto standard in the marketplace and raises the cost of entry for competitors, that's massive innovation, as long as you're defining innovation in a way that matters to the company's profitability and the financial success of shareholders -- and that is the only $DIETY Microsoft ultimately has to serve.

    Microsoft makes some money when it technologically innovates. It makes one hell of a lot of money when it can innovate through changes in its business practices or (better yet) forcing changes in the business practies of most or all customers and competitors. This is where you'll see Microsoft working hard to combat erosion in its server market.

    RMS can rant all he wants. We can wave the banner of free (Speech! Beer!) all we want. We can use the word monopoly all we want.

    And Microsoft will still win.

    Microsoft will win as long as they understand the whole war and we understand just one battle. The battle we're fighting is technological superiority, lower off-the-shelf cost and (in some cases) the principles of Free Software. Battles matter, but they're not the whole war. The war is market share and mindshare dominance, and "innovation" as simply a name for a whole range of tools that meet that primary business end.

    In this war, it sometimes seems that we're using a gun and Microsoft is committed to using its whole arsenal. Can you win with just a gun? Yeah, if you're a good shot and take out a key leader. But the odds favor the person with more weapons.

    --


    "It was a summer's tale: Just a boy, his Linux, and a head full of dreams..."
    1. Re:MS is still an innovator - in other ways by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Microsoft will win as long as they understand the whole war and we understand just one battle. The battle we're fighting is technological superiority, lower off-the-shelf cost and (in some cases) the principles of Free Software. Battles matter, but they're not the whole war. The war is market share and mindshare dominance, and "innovation" as simply a name for a whole range of tools that meet that primary business end.

      No, technologic superiority is definitely not the point. Don't listen to Linus, listen to RMS. He "got it" long before most of us. Simply put, politics, licensing, and legal details are the most important elements to this battle. Technological improvements are secondary.

      Free/Open Source Software is more closely aligned with the needs and habits of the general public (need to install 10 servers, take one disk and install it 10 times, don't pay for 10 "licenses"). So all things being equal, FOSS should win.

      But MS and others will play hardball in the courts and in government. THAT'S what we should be keeping an eye on. Let's keep the playing field as level as possible, and let freedom ring!

    2. Re:MS is still an innovator - in other ways by k_head · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The point you are missing is that freedom is just as important to a corporation as it's to a human being. Corporations don't like being locked in to a vendor, they will put up with it if they don't have an alternative but as soon as an alternative comes along they will jump on it.

      Linux is almost ready to invade corporate America. My prediction is that 2005 will be year that corporation adoption of linux will explode. The main driving force behind that will be the desire for freedom. Freedom to upgrade when you want, freedom to choose your hardware from many different vendors and freedom to switch support contracts.

      Munich was the watershed event. They chose linux even though it cost them more money because it gave them greater freedom.

      --
      The best way to support the US war effort is to continue buying American products.
  6. Re:small wave? DAMP?! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    what the hell is up with the stinking stats at the bottom? and why don't we have 2003 stats in there? give me a BREAK...

    not only that, but the stats are based upon licenses SOLD... not number of installations.

    this is ass.

  7. No Surprise by jamshid42 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    This is no real surprise. Linux, even paying for support, is a lot cheaper. And, with blade servers, you can pack a lot more horse power in a lot smaller space.

    --
    /. - Proof that Sturgeon's Law is true...
  8. If LOTR is any inspiration... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Insightful

    Back in the Third Age, Sauron was in no danger of being defeated by an attack of an army of Hobbits, no matter how fierce Bandobras Took was. Yet, he fell because of some hobbits. Who'd have thunk?

  9. Or.. by andih8u · · Score: 2, Insightful

    going to force Microsoft to spend more time on security and stability, and less time on adding new features

    You would actually think that with the resources available to them, that they would be able to do both. Perhaps this is the reason for Longhorn's delay.

    Microsoft is not a stupid company, by any means, I'm sure they have several linux labs so they can start gleaning ideas from it. They've never had any problem with seeing something as competition and coming up with their own version of it.

    --


    slashdot, news for crazed liberal socialist zealots
  10. C'mon OOo!!!! by rgsmith · · Score: 2, Insightful
    Some investors may still mistakenly believe Microsoft's desktop applications business -- namely Microsoft Office -- is at stake in the fight against Linux. But Linux faces an uphill battle there, at least over the next few years, given that Microsoft commands more than 90% of the market share in that arena.


    OOo is fighting an uphil battle here. Should they focus on 100% compoatibility or implementation of the next 'killer app' inside of an office SW suite?

    I, personally, believe that adoption by businesses will come through adding of VALUE and USEFUL FEATURES vs. Compatibility. After all, we can always make a migration tool to migrate the documents into a new format, if the value delivered by the new suite equates to a dollar savings (or revenue generation).
  11. Isn't this a good thing by andy1307 · · Score: 2, Insightful
    going to force Microsoft to spend more time on security and stability, and less time on adding new features.

    So MS is going to spend more time on security and stability, something every user needs, and less time on adding new features, most of which are hardly ever used.

  12. Re:I don't think so by e9th · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I think the fable is really about the danger of complacency, which MicroSoft displayed in abundance until recently.

  13. Re:I don't think so by bee-yotch · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I agree with you on this, but I think the idea is that slow and steady wins the race. Linux progresses (arguably) slowly, but steadily (not to mention stably). Whereas microsoft _attempts_ to leap forward, but at each leap forward it takes a rest and linux passes it. This is because each leap "forward" seems to introduce countless new bugs and security holes.

  14. enough! by mr_tommy · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Enough with these stupid stories already!!!!! Seriously : i know this appeals to the slashdot audience (posting linux advocacy stories) but the reality is completely different. The day that the community focuses on real ways to reduce microsoft's monopoly will be the day that linux becomes sucessful.

    People were writing these stories 3 years ago. Nothing has changed.

  15. Interdependencies by jtwJGuevara · · Score: 5, Insightful
    Microsoft's next major operating system release, dubbed Longhorn, aims to integrate numerous products into the operating system and desktop, creating interdependencies that could further lock customers to Microsoft

    How is this an advantage. Everyone I know that is halfway technically savvy finds this a disadvantage about the Windows line of operating systems. People like having choices when it comes to the products and services they buy. Microsoft is going to shoot themselves in the foot with this line of thinking.

  16. Re:Don't you mean... by Vancorps · · Score: 4, Insightful
    You know that almost ironic. Pure brand recognition Linux could easily gain ground in. The Tux is far more recognizable.

    That is sadly something a lot of corporate types care about. If they know the brand then they will be much more likely to sink a little money into it.

  17. Forcing to be more stable and secure.... by gmuslera · · Score: 3, Insightful
    ... now, that is a negative or positive thing for windows, microsoft or the world as a whole?

    I think a lot of companies that depends on windows would happily buy a lot of boxes of linux and show the bills to Microsoft if that will make windows more safe and stable.

  18. Desktop up next -- by frenetic3 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    They ought to be damn worried about the desktop and the consumer market as well. The Linux desktop as a drop in replacement for XP Home/whatever is still a ways away, but with advances in (the products formerly known as) Mozilla/Thunderbird, OpenOffice, and KDE/GNOME it's only a matter of time before it really improves to the point where a Linux desktop is truly accessible and does everything that 95% of the mass market wants to do.

    Plus companies like IBM can afford to throw full-time devs at it in the hopes of avoiding millions of dollars of MS tax/Windows licenses a year.

    Finally they're starting to get a taste of their own medicine (getting their market cannibalized by a free alternative).

    -fren

    --
    "Where are we going, and why am I in this handbasket?"
  19. Re:Don't you mean... by gwernol · · Score: 3, Insightful

    The mascot coolness factor alone makes Linux a superior competitor!

    Yes, yes I know the post is meant to be funny, and it is. But there's a serious point here. The Tux mascot may have a high geek coolness factor, but its a small but real impediment to acceptance of Linux by the broader business community. The logo is cartoonish and childish. It says that this project is the opposite of professional, competent and reliable. It says the software is built by a bunch of amateurs who think a fat, funny penguin is an appropriate logo for promoting their work and the values it represents. Linux is none of these things, but the logo aint helping anyone overcome that prejudice.

    --
    Sailing over the event horizon
  20. Re:Don't you mean... by Frymaster · · Score: 5, Insightful
    yes... but microsoft has branding in the words. all their products are preceded by "ms" to tie the company to the product in the minds of end users. kinda like "mc" for all the mcdonalds "food" products or the much more recent "i" prefix for apple stuff.

    linux doesn't really have that. sure there's "gnu" as in "gnutar" - but everyone just says "tar" anyway. and "k" and "g" for the desktop manager... but there's not over-arching naming mechanism that says "this is linux".

    and quite frankly, i don't want there to be. if we're going to start messing with the names of linux stuff, i vote we put an 'n' in umount and an 'e' in resolv.conf first.

  21. competition by pizza_milkshake · · Score: 3, Insightful
    microsoft has something they haven't had in a long time: competition. sure, the unixes have always been around, but they're expensive, require custom hardware, and support can only come from one place. linux has none of these detractors.

    with both sides working to improve their product, hopefully the big winner will be computer users.

    1. Re:competition by pizza_milkshake · · Score: 3, Insightful

      one thing is forgot to say though -- since microsoft got big, whenever they do have competition, they tend to pull out the stops and find ways other than technical superiority to best the other party. see netscape. see them funding sco to drag linux's name through the mud. the great thing about linux however is that the one thing microsoft is great at, making money, isn't of primary interest in the linux world. microsoft can't buy out linux. they can't give out cheaper copies to saturate the market and put linux out of business. but they will try dirty tricks... lawsuits, advanced marketing FUD and possibly ninja assassins.

  22. It's Irrelevant Parable Time on Slashdot by Mulletproof · · Score: 2, Insightful

    For this to be considered a 'race' you have to establish and end goal. So what's the goal here, smarty-pants? If your end goal is profitablility, the turtle lost a long time ago. Looking at the sheer amount of profits MS has created, it's doubtful Linux will EVER make up that margin. EVER. We're talking billions here. If your end goal is user-base, again MS has slaughtered Linux several times over. Unless they do something radically didfferent than what they're doing now, they'll never have the user share MS enjoys now.

    Being a Tutrle implies that by a slow steady pace you'll beat the Hare's constantly distracted state. You may have noticed that MS has the focus of a freakin laser beam, regardless of how much you don't like them or how bumbling you think they are. When they fixate on soemthing, they tend to hammer away until it falls. So your saying MS has the speed (being a hare) while history shows they have focus against a focused, slower opponent (the turtle). So either you just pulled that parable out of your ass to sound smart/cool, or you're actually saying MS is a sure-fire win.

    Which is it?

    --
    You need a FREE iPod Nano
    1. Re:It's Irrelevant Parable Time on Slashdot by One+Louder · · Score: 2, Insightful
      It depends whose profit you're talking about, the user's or Microsoft's.

      I use Linux for a small online service, for which I (successfully) charge a fee. If I had used Microsoft instead of Linux, my profits would have been much, much lower.

      So it's not that Linux generates less profit overall, just that it provides less profit for Microsoft.

      It's more than a little disingenuous to compare installed bases - Windows had a substantial headstart, and is bundled with virtually every Intel-based computer, whether you want it or not. Linux is only just beginning to emerge on the desktop. On the server side, the installed base of Linux machines is material and growing.

      But then you know all this already,

    2. Re:It's Irrelevant Parable Time on Slashdot by Hassman · · Score: 2, Insightful

      No, it is because Linux is a pain in the ass for the average joe to use.

      It lacks the programs that people use windows for. Take my parents. They are relativly tech savey...meaning they know enough that they don't have to call me every 5 min about how to do something... So, what do they want out of it? Ease of use.

      My dad loves MS Money as it does everything he needs it to do. My mom is into geneology, and there are tons of good software out there for it. They also use it for photoshop and their scanned / digital photos. etc...

      The average person can sit down and get anything they want for windows and use it easily. Not the case for linux.

      In other words you can say Windows "helps" the consumer by providing what they want and makes it easy to use.

      In my opinion, the only thing that MS needs to do is become more secure and slightly more stable. If that were to happen, linux would have some major problems.

      --
      -Mark
      Dovie'andi se tovya sagain.
  23. Re:Don't you mean... by AsimovBesterClarke · · Score: 3, Insightful

    From my email .signiture rotation (and undoubtedly taken from here):

    "The Linux symbol is a cute cartoon penguin. For Microsoft, the symbol
    right now is a fat guy in a skintight butterfly suit. Which mascot is
    more appealing?"

    --
    Ads are broken.
  24. get serious by tacokill · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The Windows logo is seen by hundreds of millions of people each and everyday they boot up.

    Are you actually suggesting that the Linux Penguin is a better known mascot/logo? Get serious. 95% of the world doesn't even know Linux exists.

    Remember, if you read slashdot, you are in that educated 1% of populace that knows a lot about computers (insert obligatory /. joke here) but the rest of 'everybody else' has no clue about computers, much less Linux.

    1. Re:get serious by Vancorps · · Score: 4, Insightful
      No, I was stating that it is more recognizable. Anyone that has seen and realized what Tux is forever links it with Linux. It is a unique logo that can spread the brand name around all over the place.

      This is one of the goals IBM had a while back when they were spreading graffiti all over. Images of Tux are very easily recalled since it is something most people have heard of, if not seen. Penguins that is.

  25. Re:Why do people still use Microsoft? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    Because a Microsoft product will install on my hardware without kernel recompilation.

    Because a Microsoft product will work with a wider range of hardware.

    Because there is documentation, training, certification of support personnel.

    Because almost all written for Microsoft applications look and feel the same and I have no installation, navigation, etc user issues.

    Becasue I can be sure I can exchange a file and not create problems at the other end.

    Because it crashes so seldom as to be ignorable.

    Because there is one button to push for support.

    Because I don't have to worry about patch sets, Microsoft maintains my platform.

    Because Microsoft just enables me to get my work done.

    When Linux can say all that, I'll buy it and eben pay for support. Until then, it is a wonderful development environment and a wonderful server ... but I have work to do.

  26. Look, I LOVE my Mandrake BUT... by Assmasher · · Score: 4, Insightful

    ...the reality of the situation is thus:

    Either IBM/SUN/Other serious development companies step in and totally embrace Linux and commit to an acceptable Open Source policy that makes everyone happy, or Micro$oft can quite literally re-invent themselves to be Linux killers.

    For example, and this is horrifying, imagine that M$ purchases SCO's 'rights' (whatever the hell those actually are) and produces a Unix clone and puts 20 THOUSAND engineers on it. Imagine they do it right. Everything written to be secure, everything modularized, the ultimate desktop, et cetera.

    This is a REAL possibility. Sadly, I think Apple is the one who showed them the possibilities. OSX was a huge slap in Redmond's face and I bet many of them said "Why don't we have something like that."

    Can you imagine a (borg like) future were Microsoft has (like it does now) two product lines, the client line and the server line. The server line is Unix based, the client line is (who knows what) based.

    Linux in all this? Gets marginalized.

    In essenece what I'm trying to say is "Do not count on Micro$oft letting us slowly chew away at their business. They will come out with guns blazing and the only way to beat them is to do it with their own game, the throwing of literally billions of dollars and tens of thousands of HIGHLY organized engineers at a problem."

    Look how quickly they crushed Netscape when they really put an effort into it. It's, quite frankly, terrifying. 40 billion in cash, tens of thousands of (despite what many of you think) quality software engineers, a first class research group. They're some scary mothers.

    I sure wish SUN and Oracle would just suddenly go ALL LINUX. That'd scare the piss out of old Bill ;).

    --
    Loading...
  27. Re:Don't you mean... by Kierthos · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Right, because it's so much easier to have "serious" and non-cartoony logos, like Mickey Mouse, or Bugs Bunny sitting on top of the Warner's Brothers shield... or the dancing MTV symbol, or a peacock for NBC... or anything that Spike TV is using...

    Kierthos

    --
    Mr. Hu is not a ninja.
  28. It's no longer about 'if', only about 'when'... by heironymouscoward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Perhaps 2004 will not be the year when Linux makes it big. Maybe not 2005, 2006, or even 2007. But it is becoming clear to every honest observer that Microsoft is running out of time. Their business model sits smack in the middle of that part of the software ecology that has become commoditized. They are selling ice in an age of cheap refrigeration.
    It's hardly even worth asking 'when'. Frankly, who cares whether it's next year or in 10 years.
    The only interesting questions are, IMHO, (a) how can Microsoft survive (and it ain't gonna happen by producing TCO studies!), and (b) what will happen to the software world if MS does not survive. Open Source software is a threat only to some classes of commercial software producer, and it's a boon to every single software consumer.
    Attempts to polarize this debate into "opinion" and "zealotry" miss the point: it's about technology curves and the way they change the economics of doing business.

    --
    Ceci n'est pas une signature
  29. Re:Don't you mean... by gwernol · · Score: 0, Insightful

    On the contrary, I think the pengiun is an easily recognizable and very memorable symbol for Linux.

    I didn't say that Tux was not a memorable symbol. I agree with you, it is. That's because it doesn't look like most corporate logos (because its cartoonish etc.) I said that the message it conveyed was one of childishness and amateurishness. It is memorable for the same reasons that it doesn't convey professionalism and a commitment to quality. There's a reason corporations don't choose logos like Tux: they want to convey an impression of professionalism. So there's a tradeoff - a more memorable logo that looks amateurish or a less memorable one that positions Linux as a viable alternative to Microsoft.

    --
    Sailing over the event horizon
  30. Re:Microsoft *is* working on security & stabil by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I guess it depends on how seriously you take Microsoft's "security" initiative. If you think it's for real, then yes, Microsoft has been focusing on security for two years. If you think it's just marketing nonsense, then Microsoft has been sitting on its ass for two years except when prodded forward by security vulnerabilities. It's a toss-up for many.

    Take some of the things MS does to improve "security". Back in 199x, they had a problem with viruses being sent as attachments, because it's too easy to convince people to run foreign executables on Windows. So, do they fix the bug? No, they remove the feature. No attachments for you! Now it's 2004 and they have a bug in their HTTP URL parsing that allows people to phish. Fix the bug like Mozilla did? No, remove the feature--no usernames/passwords in URLs for you! It seems that Microsoft has learned nothing. Got a bug in a feature? Remove the feature, because fixing bugs is hard.

    And then there's Oxymoronic statements, like "ActiveX security". You know what? ActiveX is a generic technology with no concept of program INSTALLATION with restricted user permissions. Using it as an Internet-exposed browser plugin technology was a quick and easy but extraordinarily insecure decision. The best Microsoft can do is throw up a lot of locks in front of the control, because once a user clicks "Yes" (and trust me, users do!) the show's over. The ActiveX control has complete control. Not so on Linux--I install plugins without root access, and they only apply to me, and can only damage my home directory. Home Windows users regularly run as administrators, not because they are dumb, but because they need to do things that Windows won't let them do unless they're administrators. Install browser plugins, fonts, change file associations. Linux users can do all of these things as unprivileged users.

    Yes, I believe people at Microsoft believe they are working on security. I believe many Microsoft customers believe Microsoft is committed to security. And I also believe that the truth or falsehood of those beliefs is irrelevant. This is a PR blitz, nothing more.

  31. Re:Don't you mean... by egghat · · Score: 3, Insightful

    IMHO the look of XP compared to the look of W2K isn't exactly what I'd call professionell and what I'd call cartoonish and childish.

    Hmmm. MS has sold millions of these bright, colourish and childish desktops ...

    bye egghat.

    --
    -- "As a human being I claim the right to be widely inconsistent", John Peel
  32. Re:Don't you mean... by Rooktoven · · Score: 3, Insightful

    You mean like Reddy-Kilowatt, Mr. Zip-code, The Exxon Tiger, Ronald McDonald, the AOL man, the GOP elephant, the Demorcatic donkey, the Maytag repairman, Ask Jeeves, or any other persona or charicature?

    The point is that there is no such thing as bad name recognition. Just because Linux doesn't have a stylized "Linux" in words logo, doesn't mean that it is not professional. The goal of a logo is to stand out in people's heads and make a permanent impression.

    Now perhaps you think it is childlike, but so what if it appeals to kids? My kids, aged 8 and 6 recognize Tux as being the linux penguin wherever they see it. This creates lifelong association and awareness.

    As it is, Tux is quite stylized and adaptable, and when broken down into high contrast colors, it is still recognizable. I also take issue saying it conjures up images of unreliability. Linus liked Tux because (paraphrasing) "He looks liked he just ate of lot of herring or just got laid." So Tux stands for fat and happy success with a knowing, enigmatic grin-- i.e. you just ate the competition's lunch.

    --

    Acquiescence leads to obliteration
  33. Re:Don't you mean... by Marc+Desrochers · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I wonder, do you also think the *BSD mascot is satanic, or that it represents satanic values (whatever those may be)? Anyone who makes business decisions based on a product logo, deserve what they get.

  34. Software will determine OS's fate by russinit · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I don't believe that the press should continue to say whether Linux will win over Microsoft or hurt them. Both are good operating systems (shhh...Linux is better) but it will be the software that is available to the operating systems that may turn the tides. Right now, MSFT wins in the desktop space because you can go into any store, buy software, and it will work in Windows. However, in the server space, MSFT doesn't have that many good products. Besides products like SQL and ISA, the other server apps are really behind the times. CMS, Project Server, SharePoint - yeish. The open-source counterparts blow them away. I think organizations will begin to see that it won't be an OS war but organizations will want to use products like MySQL in which they can clearly save money and have high ROI. Bottem line: I feel it's not MSFT vs. Linux it is MSFT vs. open-source. Which is a battle they will not win.

  35. Re:Don't you mean... by kisielk · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The corporate world doesn't seem to have much of a problem with the logo as far as I can tell. HP and IBM were eagerly plastering it over all of their products at the last show I went to. Also, not all Linux companies companies insist on using the Linux pengiun in their logos, take RedHat or Progeny for example.

    Btw, is it just me, or does the RedHat guy look like a pretty shady character? I don't think I'd be too inclined to let someone like that manage my servers :p

  36. No by 4of12 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    ...going to force Microsoft to spend more time on security and stability, and less time on adding new features.

    His prognostication is late.

    IMHO, Linux is the single most important reason that Win2K was as good as it was relative to previous offerings to Redmond.

    So good, in fact, that knowledgeable customers aren't convinced there are any valid technical reasons for migrating to XP or successors. The cost benefit ratio just isn't compelling.

    In it's effort to stave off the force of commoditisation that Linux and free and open source software is bringing, Microsoft is working furiously to add features that make migration away from Windows less attractive.

    The Outlook/Exchange orbit is a prime example of that strategy.

    But this kind of feature lock-in is only a good strategy for existing customers that are already heavily invested in Microsoft's products. It's not a good strategy for growth of new customers, particularly cost-conscious customers.

    And, even though the recession is over, the cost-cutting activities in businesses are not over, which really puts the spotlight on Microsoft's high-margin products that have "good enough" low-cost alternatives in the free and open source world.

    --
    "Provided by the management for your protection."
  37. Linux is IBM's revenge by avandesande · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Remember when Microsoft helped commoditize hardware in the 90? IBM can now get their revenge by commoditizing the operating system.

    --
    love is just extroverted narcissism
  38. Re:Don't you mean... by Atzanteol · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Something professional like an overweight man in a skin-tight butterfly suit? A lizard selling car insurance (geiko)?

    I think you overestimate the corporate world a bit.

    --
    "Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge"

    - Charles Darwin
  39. Re:Don't you mean... by kelzer · · Score: 4, Insightful

    That's because it doesn't look like most corporate logos (because its cartoonish etc.) I said that the message it conveyed was one of childishness and amateurishness. It is memorable for the same reasons that it doesn't convey professionalism and a commitment to quality.

    I can think of lots of technology that comes with really slick, professional logos that is total crap.

    How many of us have visited fancy websites for overpriced "enterprise" solutions that end up being complete junk?

    I find the Tux logo to be refreshingly non-commercial. The logo tells me "we didn't spend all our money developing logos and using focus groups to ensure the logos convey the right qualities - we're more concerned with actually delivering those qualities."

    --

    ---------------------------------------------
    SERENITY NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
  40. Re:It won't happen till... by LittleLebowskiUrbanA · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Macs don't cost too much once you look at the total cost of ownership. You might try learning about what you're talking about. Someone else already addressed your servers comment.

  41. Re:Microsoft adds Features? by ClosedSource · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I'm sure that the OSS community could create a more stable and secure OS than Linux if they designed it that way from the ground up.

    I believe MS could do the same.

    The problem is that nobody would use the new OS because they value backward-compatiblity more than stabilty and security.

  42. Here's an interesting quote by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    "We've also been very clear that the open source and free software model is a threat to all commercial software vendors. ... It's a threat to everybody."

    I hear this a lot lately. How open source and free software will kill economics/capitalism/everything! What is being ignored is the fact that commercial software vendors make up only a small part of the economy. For the vast majority of business and people in the world, computers are not an end in themselves; they are tools that they use to get non-computer type stuff manufactured/distributed/grown/whatever.

    What I think the popularity of open source software should be telling Microsoft et al is that the cost of doing business with them is simply too high! It is brought out in the article with the mention of customers using Linux to bring Microsoft's pricing down. Even company concerns with security are a reflection of this; recent Microsoft security breaches have probably cost companies more than the original software purchase price.

    In very real sense, Microsoft has priced themselves out of the market. And it isn't necessarily all monetary; the costs of insecurity I've already mentioned and there is a very real cost to vendor lock-in in terms of forced upgrade cycles and incompatibility with existing tools. There is a cost associated with Linux even though it's free; it comes in terms of learning/training, more limited hardware support and longer, more complicated configuration.

    Whatever the reasons, companies are now deciding that Open Source software may allow them to save money and be more competitive. Companies that do that will offer better products at cheaper prices to consumers. Surely that isn't a "threat to everybody"? No, the only threat I see is to commercial software vendors in general (and Microsoft in particular) and any chance that "business as usual" will continue to make tham scads of money. They will adapt or die.

  43. Re:I don't think so by fitten · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Am I the only one who finds MS's newer crayonware interfaces a colossal PITA?

    Yeah, funny thing is that KDE and GNOME both try to be very close to it (the XP "Classic" interface, which is what everyone I know uses - not the Fisher-Price one).

  44. Good God..."+4, Insightful"??? by WebCowboy · · Score: 3, Insightful

    How inappropriate...however it would be cool if the parent post got modded "+5, Troll" as it is a masterful example of trolling.

    Sincerely, HOW exactly does .NET eliminate a "whole class of security vulnerabilities" from Windows. Are you referring to buffer overflows and such? Seems to me that lately that's been the LEAST of problems in the windows worm-fest (almost none involve security breaches related to overflows).

    I am not extremely well versed in the underlying architecture of .NET except in that it seems to be "Java done right (according to Microsoft)". Pray tell me, what does the "integrated security environment" do to make Windows inherently more secure than anything else?

    Seems to me it's primary benefit would be to streamline the process and provide a common security layer for ALL .NET applications. Do you mean that since it is a uniform system it will be easier to secure and as such more people will secure their systems. "Security by Simplicity" if you will--make it too hard and people will give up or incorrectly secure the system and leave it vulnerable, hence a simpler setup is more secure. Is that your argument?

    Seems like a good theory but one that can bite a gigantic chunk out of your ass if you aren't careful. The whole .NET architecture seems to force all applications to rely on the integrity of the .NET framework and security environment. The apps are all .NET CLR "managed code" but low-level drivers and code in the .NET framework itself at some level are going to rely on C and assembly I would think. What happens if there is a vulnerability there? A security bug in the .NET Application Framework somewhere wouldn't just make IIS or Outlook or IE vulnerable, it could make EVERY DAMN .NET APP vulnerable! "Central" and "Intetgrated" security model seems to me to translate to "single point of failure".

    Maybe I'm just missing something here, but I really don't see how .NET is the MS Saviour of security. About all I've seen is a change in philosophy to "services closed by default" etc but nothing MEANINGFUL. And we still have to wait at least TWO YEARS until Longhorn to see it working to it's fullest advantage (thatever that is). How is something that's realistically that for out on the horizon fix the very serious flaws in the platform that have to be dealt with today?

  45. Re:Question... by NotoriousQ · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Mostly because there is no one in open source development is really set on promoting open source to PHB.

    Lets see a typical interview:
    Reporter: So how do you feel about microsoft's long term strategy around linux?
    Linus: Microsoft? Meh.
    ESR: Microsoft does not get it.
    RMS: It does not matter, there is no freedom.
    Reporter: Well, what do you plan to give to people that will counter the Microsoft deal?
    Linus: People? Meh.
    ESR: People who have to think about choosing Microsoft or Linux do not get it.
    RMS: FREEEEEEEDOM.
    Reporter: Thank you.

    See, this kind of thing just will not work. The top leaders of open source/free software (sorry for the lack of distinction) are not the best to try to convince anyone to use Linux. Let Linus code, and ESR and RMS push and enhace their philosophy, that is what they do best.

    Now you might be on to something with RHAT CEO. Better yet, there should be someone at redhat who is in charge of marketing. Let them speak sense and money on corporate level. Red Hat should really make noise as much as they can, that shouild earn them some interviews and publicity.

    Now Perens is a good spokesman, but I think his speeches need to be heard by CIOs, and techies. PHBs do not care to understand shared source versus open source. And judging by what is going on, Perens is already speaking to the technology aware masses, via slashdot or other tech-oriented magazines / news sites. He is doing a good job, even if it means that we do not seem in WSJ or NYT, or Forbes.

    That is the way it should be.

    --
    badness 10000
  46. Re:Er, I think the point is ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    Uh, in the tortoise & the hare, last I read it, it was about a hare who thought he had the race "in the bag" and got lazy, allowing to tortoise to win while he took a nap.

    MS has certainly been paying attention to Linux for some time now, however...

  47. Microsoft's greatest advantage.... by innerweb · · Score: 4, Insightful
    Is that it allows complete computer illiterates to do little things so that they feel like they can do great big things. Kind of like the kid who rides a tri-cycle thinking he can drive a formula 1 race car.

    People like to believe they are empowered. Most people do not use the best product, they use the product that makes them feel the best. So what if Excel is not a database. The last place I worked full time for had so many excel spreadsheet databases that two people sitting beside each other could not agree on what a property's address was.

    MS has the market for dumb users at the moment. Unskilled users can be brilliant at other things (like marketing, real estate, contracts, etc.) but they have no clue (or worse, little clue) how to work with data. They use MS products though and can get a small thing going, so they think the next step is just another click and drag away. Linux lacks this fundamental smoke screen.

    The reason this race analogy is so beautiful is that Linux is slowly creeping up on MS's GUI ease of use and unskilled user empowerment. The key really is to allow people to do damage to themselves easily, then it is their choice. As Linux develops the ease of use, and ease of getting stuck that Windows currently has, then the rest of the world will start to flock to it. After all, these are most of the same people who download music, games and movies without paying. Then, they will not have to pay for the OS or the Office software.

    Microsoft might be able to compete with that, but I doubt they can through legitimate means. After all, GNU applications and Linux development do not have any of the marketing, h/r, accounting or other costs associated with running a company. Pure development without the taint of beancounters or marketers.

    InnerWeb

    --
    Freud might say that Intelligent Design is religion's ID.
  48. Cartoonish and Childish... by TheQuantumShift · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Of course you definitely can't say the same thing about *nix desktops...

    --

    Shift happens. Fire it up.
  49. comp.os.linux.advocacy called... by decsnake · · Score: 2, Insightful

    they want their flame war from 1997 back

    The point that the vast majority of the flamers on both sides seem to have missed is that a respected business publication thinks linux has a chance.

    Most of us that were around when Linus made his quip about world domination never in our wildest dreams expected it would really happen, and here is an article saying it might. And articles like this have actually become common!

    We now return you to your regularly scheduled flame fest.