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Apple Sued in France for iPod Music Royalties
alex_guy_CA writes "A musicians rights group in France is suing Apple Computer for back royalties due from iPod sales. It seems in France, all CDs, hard drives, and the like owe musicians money in case any of it is used for piracy. Only Apple isn't paying up." I want compensation from sales of Microsoft Windows just in case it is used for spreading viruses.
Well, it's the law, fair or unfair Apple needs to pay up. Of course, when artists start getting payment from legal users that presume compensation for when the devices are used for piracy, they're more or less waiving their moral claim to any damages for piracy since they've already been paid for that.
... but it seems a pretty clear-cut infringement, given that the law exists. Perhaps Apple want to make a stand - can't see a USA company getting much sympathy in France though...
... sigh...
Oh if only the virus line were true
Simon.
Physicists get Hadrons!
There are some strange and restive laws out there. You should never just release a product and hope for the best. Especially something that makes money of off copywriten material. While you and I may disagree with the law, its still the law in france and Apple needed to have abided by it.
"Have you ever thought about just turning off the TV, sitting down with your kids, and hitting them?"
One thing's that a bit unclear to me is who actually owes this money. Is it really Apple's responsiblity as the maker of the devices, or shouldn't it be the store's since they're the one who set the actual selling price?
Afterall, if the tax is due based on the sale price, any discounts would lower that price.
That will show them!
Seriously, Apple has made an effort to prevent piracy and that should be taken into consideration by Sacem.
Lasers Controlled Games!
If I pay the tax, how much music am I entitled to pirate?
Actually that is not a bad analogy. Everyone pays when a Micr0$oft virus is successful, but if the company that produces the item is to be held responsible for it when it is used badly then Micr0$oft should be bearing the financial burdern of a successful virus. Still, I would vote for a no to Apple IPod tax, and a no to a Microsoft tax for that matter. To bad things are not more consistent.
If the rights group sues and wins, how much of the reward will go to the musicians themselves, and how much will go to the group, to fund more lawsuits?
I thought so.
Next Q: Can the commenters at /. let even one pot-shot at Microsoft go without taking a pot-shot at the editors?
There's never enough when you have too little
That's actually a pot shot at the French government's asinine law rather than at Microsoft. Nobody can deny that most viruses are written for Windows.
So how can I moderate an article's headline as "-1 Flamebait" then ?
Never, ever lose a file again. Ever.
If Apple really wants to win they should recall all iPods still in stored in France and put out AD's denouncing the "musicians" rights group and the tax involved, when people can't get what they want is when you get their attention, lawsuits happen all the time but a product being pulled from your country gets things done... "we're sorry, we cannot sell our product to you because is suing us under because they feel they deserve money for every one of our product we sell just in case it is used to pirate music"
Snowden and Manning are heroes.
Incorrect.
It'd go like this (moreso in my wonderful home state of Texas):
*doorbell rings*
"Hello there, I'm from the RIAA handing you a subpoena..."
*smiles*
(Click) Points 20 gague shotgun at the RIAA drone, followed by "You're trespassing. I'll give you a 10 second head-start to get off my porch.."
Now, if the subpoena were served by an actual deputy/process server, then they have leagal right to trespass to serve, without actually entering the dwelling. Joe Citizen (even a member of the RIAA) is not a member of law enforcement and not entitled to trespass to serve legal documents.
But, IANAL.
Cruising the internet on my TI-99/4A @ a whopping 300 baud!
It has always seemed to me that in France the looters are winning. If you have ever read Atlas Shrugged by Any Rand you know what I am talking about.
"God fights on the side with the best artillery." - Napoleon, Marshal of France - speaking truth to power
The big question is, how do I become an artist that is entitled to get this money? Do I have to be under contract of a certain recording/distribution company? Do I have to have proof that someone has illegally copied my music? Do all artists get the same amount? Do some get none? Are there any non-artists reaping the benefits of this tax? if so, why?
This ranks right up there as one of the most assinine laws around, not just france's implementation, but every other country that has such a law.
Extending their logic :
As a software developer shouldn't I get a cut of all devices that can be used to pirate software? This would, of course, include CDRs, floppy disks, CD-burners, hard-drives, USB memory sticks, modems, DSL lines, and computers.
Where's my damn money?
Brien
"...if the company that produces the item is to be held responsible for it when it is used badly then Micr0$oft should be bearing the financial burdern of a successful virus."
Now I'm not a big Microsoft fan, nor do I find it amusing that every other day I get another email from someone carrying the Netsky virus. But it's an awful precedent to set to put the financial burden on the people who build an operating system to protect against every known virus. The reason Microsoft's OS is hit more than any other is more because Microsoft has a much larger share and is better known by hackers; one can infect many many more computers that way. OS companies, Linux included, would then spend most of their time fighting off the hacking attempts from their competitors who build viruses with the sole purpose of getting them in legal trouble...it just opens a whole can of worms up. Keep in mind that Linux and MacOS and every other OS out there has vulnerabilities too, they just don't get nearly as much attention.
Just another case of France trying to impose its laws on an American company.
Except, of course, in this case Apple is actually selling Ipods in France, to French citizens, for Euros (mostly ones with the French logos on them), under the jurisdiction of the French commercial code. I don't think Apple or McDonalds are going to get away with claiming extraterritoriality for their stores, especially the French-owned ones. Conversely, I'm pretty sure Mandrake complies with US law relating to their US sales activities.They don't call them French Fries in France
Some mornings it's hardly worth chewing through the restraints to get out of bed.
I do, that's the problem. I love the idea of a land of freedom, justice and equality. What really burns my gravy is seeing America call itself that, yet do the complete opposite. America is one of the most oppressive western countries. It has the loosest idea of justice (Guantanamo bay, anyone?) and equality you can find. THAT is my problem with America. If America was the America it is on paper and claims (so vehemently) it is, I'd be singing its praises from the highest building.
This is really getting insane.. so much of our income is being lost on taxes and royalties that its no wonder the world economy is in the tank.
sure there should be a reasonable tax, and some credit given to 'producers' but we are way beyond what should be considered reasonable.
Problem is most people dont notice until tax time, or when they get hit with a law suit..
---- Booth was a patriot ----
"I personaly kind of like this system"
Its dumb.
Who do you compensate?
More importantly, its simply corporate welfare because the bulk of this kind of tax is simply given to either (a) the record company (since they get the mechanical royalties (b) the big pop stars.
I can live with Vivendi and Brittany not getting a cut of iPods.
Please. Stop supporting corporate welfare.
One lawsuit against a company vs. dozens against people who may have used a P2P app - and you think the US lost the #1 spot in "being litigious"? That propels the US right at the top rank in "making up stupid excuses why we are not so bad after all".
Lars T.
To the guy who modded me down from perfect to terrible Karma - Apple haters still suck
the iPod has no function that allows piracy...I can see why tehy are not paying up.
I am the Alpha and the Omega-3
Just kidding... nothing like a headline to get some public attention.
But all joking asside, there is some logic to the parallel I am attempting to draw.
If, because of the liklihood that someone will buy blank media and use it for purposes which result in copyright infringment, the artists and organizations 'harmed' should be repaid proportionally to the number or amount of potentially infringing media purchased.
That said, there is a fairly high liklihood that young black males will commit a felony before he is 25. If our conviction rate is any indicator (some 15% of all black males are inelligible to vote due to prior felony convictions) then potentially greater than 30% of all black males will be guilty of a violent crime before he is 25 years of age. If we apply the same logic, we should probably put all black males in prison from the age of 18 to about 21. This will protect the public from the violent crimes that they may potentially commit saving lives and property and will also serve as punishment in advance for anything they may do for which they are never caught.
Please understand that I am being completely ridiculous and I in no way believe the bullcrap I just wrote above. My attempt at writing this garbage is an attempt to draw a parallel at how ridiculous it is to penalize all consumers of recordable media. Just because it doesn't happen in the U.S. is not a reason the people of the U.S. shouldn't be concerned. (We should protect the rights of all if we expect our rights to remain intact.)
I'd like to see a world-wide abolishment of these proactive punitive measures.
If you have to pay for it .... ITS NOT FAIR USE.
You're talking about eliminating fair use. Fair use says "I have a copy of this thing, I can make another copy for my own use without asking permission or paying royalties from the copyright holder".
What you're talking about is replacing fair use with pre-negotiated royalty fees.
Thanks. Not interested.
It is interesting how laws like this in other countries don't generate the kneejerk reaction they do in the US.
Question: before you said this, did you actually review the reactions in other countries?!?
Because in my opinion, at least in France, these taxes have been controversial, especially among computer users in who use CDs for backing up their data. Also the tax was proposed at some point to be extended to hard drives and there was of course much debate against that.
You've obviously never met a Texan. Regardless of how much crap us people in other states give them, they're among the nicest, most helpful people I've ever met. But the one thign that Texans don't stand is someone dis-respecting them. The tiniest Texan will stand up to the biggest guy around if he feels that's the right thing to do. The parent Texan sees the RIAA as disrespecting him and basically stealing from him. He's going to put him back in his place.
They don't let little pricks go unchecked. They police their own and it creates a pretty good balanced system. Few people get the chance to take advantage of the same Texan twice.
So it seems to me that you've already paid the artists... time to fire up kazaa and pirate stuff like mad! erm, download the stuff you paid for.
Your lack of knowledge about European history speaks more about your own ignorance than any supposed faults on the part of the French. Like most of the nations in Europe, France had its turn at the top of the pile - Italy, Germany, France, and the UK were all major military powers at one time or another. The US is currently the world's most powerful nation, but here's a clue: it doesn't last forever.
Every empire in history has had a period where they seemed invincible, and the idea that they'd somehow lose that position was simply unthinkable. Just ask the Romans - once rulers of the known world, and now languishing under a clown like Silvio Burlescon.
The causes of decline are many and varied - but most historians agree things have started to turn bad when the population is unable to string simple sentences together (hint, it's "lose" not "loose").
I know you're trying to be funny, but both Air and Daft Punk are from france. Both of those groups have sold millions of records.
Jack Valenti and Orrin Hatch will be first up against the wall when the revolution comes.
I always find amazing to see how *some* Americans twist truth, tell blatant lies and accuse others of being liers !!
:-p
France supported the liberation of Afghanistan with the USA and was on the front line from day one with their troops and planes. Afghanistan has nothing to do WHATSOEVER with IRAQ, learn your geography and recent history !!!
Let me remind you this recent history:
BUSH: we are going to attack IRAQ, they have weapons of massive destructions and are about to use them against us or our allies, they are very powerful and evil.
FRANCE: what proofs do you have? All our secret services tell us they don't have anything, the only weapons of massive destructions they might, eventuallly, still have or those that YOU sold them 15 years ago.
BUSH: They are terrorists, they are with alqaeda, they are muslim fundamentalists !!!
FRANCE: Come on Bushie, you know perfectly that this is a dictatorship, but a laic one, that's precisely why the whole western world supported this regime !!
BUSH : Saddam is evil, he killed his own people years ago !
FRANCE : the embargo you enforced on IRAQ killed millions of people, most of them children and elderly people, it didn't seem to bother you so far.
BUSH: you traitors, I'll have my revenge once I win ! You will lick my boots you old Europe!!
FRANCE: How long is a presidential mandate in the US? We'll just wait for a more clever president to be elected to solve all the mess you are creating in our region, in the meantime let us offer you this nice book about the Vietnam War, it explains whith lots of details how this country became a nice democracy thanks to your troops
Actually, oil is a strategic natural resource. Iraq is not of interest because Bush or anyone else wants cheap oil. They want control of a strategic resource. Oil represents power, because it represents money and is so critical to the operation of the worlds machinery (literally and figuratively). Being able to control the flow of oil around the world gives the US a great deal of power.
The US barely noticed the genocide of 800,000 Rwandans in 1994. In fact the government took great pains to label it "ethnic cleansing" (and make sure the media did as well) because to call it genocide would invoke treaties which require military intervention to stop genocide. This is just a glaring example of how "strategic interest" governs US policy, not any ethical or moral principles. If it's good for business, if it's good for getting the upper hand over enemies and allies, it's worth the effort.
Human rights is not the reason for invading Iraq, or any of the U.S. involvement in previous years. But to say, "it's about cheap oil" misses the mark a bit. It's about control of oil. If Iraq had nothing but more sand under the sand, Saddam would still be in power. The US has a long and continuing history of upsetting democratic governments and installing despots, supporting vicious human-rights violators, and looking the other way when it comes to people who play ball (Saudi Arabia).
Power and money are the language of America, indeed most of the world. These are what wars are fought over, why people seek office, how the very gears of the global ecomomy works. And the purpose of globalization is to get everybody involved in it who isn't yet. We have created a global system that runs on money and power. To think that this system has any other aim but to continue its own existence and increase the wealth and power of those who run it is illogical.
Well, beeing modded as a Troll is more of an honor here than anything, so I can only say Thank You.
:)
Apart from the mods and posters here that can't see longer than their own nose, I can also inform you that I live in Orlando Florida and not in any far away overseas country
The point is that the world is much more than the US, but it fails to register with people here in the US. Everything is about the US and most people couldn't care less what happens anywhere else, which is why the news channels pumped us full of Martha Stewart for 24 hours after her verdict as if there wer no other news in the world. Puts a bit of perspective on what is important I guess. Feel free to give me more Troll ratings I need it since my karma is excellent!
If you mod me down, I *will* introduce you to my sister!
North Korea has a fomidable military, and the people of NK will fight if necessary. Any war with NK would be devastating. We negotiate and talk with NK, because the repercussions from fighting are not a desirable option.
Iraq was becoming more formidable, had aspirations to gain WMDs, supported terrorists, and was relatively easy to stop. We have lost less than 1000 troops so far, most after the actual fighting. The Iraqis lost relatively very few people, less than would have been killed if Saddam was left in place.
So what if oil was one of the reasons for liberating Iraq. The US can not be expected to be the police of the world, we don't have the resources to take on every genocidal and oppressive government. The rest of the UN nations share that responsibility. In this instance, it was in the interests of the US to remove Saddam.
I think the Americans paid the French back already for those two minor incidents in the 1900s involving Germany.
It's not when the boys got there, it's that they got there.
The Canada levy still only applies to a recording medium on which no sounds have ever been fixed. So why isn't Apple just putting some sounds on the iPods to begin with? Some sort of back-room deal to avoid additional legislation closing that loophole?
Then why isn't the US invading North Korea? There is much evidence of the same kind of Human Rights violations and atrocities that existed in Iraq. Well, the answer is that North Korea is not the World's Second Largest Producer of Oil...
Kim Jong Il is simply not as accessable as Saddam. A surgical operation of the kind that was applied to Iraq could not work in Korea. War with North Korea would mean bloody mayhem for everyone involved, and a huge refugee problem on the Korean peninsula. The US wrecked Saddam's regime because it was vulnerable. He was a bad guy who deserved to come to a bad end. The vast majority of Iraqis would agree. As for the oil, the US will get it like everyone else: at market prices. That is more than I can say for the currupt French and Russian officials who profited from the oil for food shame.
an ill wind that blows no good
The British government forces me to pay a levy on blank music CDs; so why aren't I allowed to copy whatever I want on to it? They can't have it both ways, either I pay the levy and copy any music legally, or they don't charge the levy and prosecute copying.
It's a good thing that computers can write music to data CD's with no levy to pay.
A latent existence
The tax isn't meant to pay the artists, it's meant to cover the cost of your fair use rights.
If I have to pay for it, it is hardly a right.
Germany does not hate France and the French are not targets of our jokes except some good-natured ones on their accent when they try to speak german. The British do not hate France either, though they are wary of the Berlin-Paris axis. On the other hand, the french "jokes" from right-wing America were calculated propaganda, no better than the jewish "jokes" told in Hitler Germany. France is a proud nation. It will take time to forgive.
And what exactly is the cost to the artist of my fair use rights? I already paid for my copy of their artistry. If I want to copy that onto a blank CD so that I don't bake the one I paid for in my car, what is the cost to them? If I want to copy it onto my iPod so that I don't have to lug around my stereo and CD collection, how does that hurt the artist? The artists have already been compensated for the copy I listen to.
If this tax were on VHS tapes, does that mean that actors, direcotors, writers and set decorators should receive additional compensation from every blank tape sold? Is there a tax on every copier sold to support authors that have their works copied?
All this tax is is a penalty apllied to honest people to cover the costs to copyright holders of dishonest people.
How come Slashdot never gets Slashdotted?
I have to say that if we had that law here I think it would encourage me to start pirating music since I would be paying for it anyway....