Slashdot Mirror
Apple Sued in France for iPod Music Royalties
alex_guy_CA writes "A musicians rights group in France is suing Apple Computer for back royalties due from iPod sales. It seems in France, all CDs, hard drives, and the like owe musicians money in case any of it is used for piracy. Only Apple isn't paying up." I want compensation from sales of Microsoft Windows just in case it is used for spreading viruses.
"It seems in France, all CDs, hard drives, and the like owe musicians money in case any of it is used for piracy."
Does that mean that organizations like the RIAA are prohibited from suing music downloaders because the musicians have already been paid by the state (perhaps through some industry group), or is this just a tax?
Ahh see but in France they're not actually paying the tax while in Canada they are. I sure paid my $25 extra for my iPod last month and they clearly label that (bright red letters...yup).
...Sacem said that unless Apple settles its growing account, the agency that collects the payments "will have no other option than to go immediately to court to make sure that the rights of artists, composers and producers are respected.
Sacem is playing the "starving artist" card, but they did it poorly. They said they wanted artists' rights protected, but if they really meant this, they should go after actual copyright infringers. They really just want money, which doesn't have much to do with rights.
HIV Crosses Species Barrier... into Muppets
So, here's an easy (if not cheap) solution.
Pay up, then stop selling. Refuse to sell so long as that law is in place.
Apple's got the kind of fan base that might make that tactic popular.
tasks(723) drafts(105) languages(484) examples(29106)
I want compensation from sales of Microsoft Windows just in case it is used for spreading viruses.
I know slashdot editors like to add their own comments to submitted stories, but this makes no sense. Are you saying that as a virus writer, you should be entitled to some of the profits that Microsoft is making off of viruses?
Even that sounds like a reach. Their system is like that used in other nations where there is a fee on media that goes to artists no matter if their work is illegally copied or not.
The question that the article does not answer is if all/any HDD manufacturers pay the fee already. Guess what? If the fee was already paid by the manufacturer then Appled paid the fee already when they bought the drives. Not saying that is the case, but it is something to think about. Also, if no HDD manufacturer pays this fee then the threat is just as stupid as it sounds on the surface.
Eve Fairbanks says I drive a hybrid!LOL
The last time I checked that only applied to countries in which the medium was manufactured. It really stinks that such a fine peice of hardware is getting bad press of a trivial matter. IIANAL, but what is the legality of Apple having to pay for loyalties only applying to specific countries? Is this something that would be taken care of during the trade agreement?
Steal This Sig
Not all countries work the same way as the US. European countries know about international diplomacy and don't take everything personally. Prime example: When bird flu was found in Delaware and the EU banned imports of US poultry due to safety concerns, the US "retaliated" and banned certain European imports. How on earth you can retaliate over a safety matter is beyond me. Is Europe supposed to import the infected chicken so they don't upset the US?
This isn't a dig at Americans or the US, but rather the seemingly childish attitude the US has towards international relations. It seems the US is only prepared to use its "big boy voice" when it wants something, and as soon as it has it, it's back to "little boy voice" complete with huffs and pouting. Go figure.
In Denmark we have levies too, but we're not paying for piracy, we're paying for "fair use". (Not that we have much fair use left - Denmark has one of the strictest copyright regimes internationally)
The distinction is important. I resent the thought of paying levies on CD-Rs used to make backups of albums i bought fair and square. OTOH, if I were allowed to swap and burn music all I wanted I'd happily pay up.
Of course the politicians aren't interested in this distinction at all - to them it's more a matter of stopping the artists from whining. Squeaky wheel gets the grease, that's how politics work.
Any sufficiently advanced libertarian utopia is indistinguishable from government.
Just societies impose taxes to protect (in a number of different ways) victims of crime, in this case artists. The question of whether copyright laws are just is a completely different question.
My city imposes property taxes on me to pay for a women's shelter. Does that me that mean I have any more of a moral right to beat my spouse?
The yahoo issue was about internet not having borders.
...)
Here it's about an US product being sold in france. In that case you have to follow the local laws, which include declaring your product at importation, adding local taxes and respecting extra local rules.
Totally different.
Now, I'd be pretty happy if apple have balls to challenge that as it's IMHO a pretty lame law blindlessly applies to most (every) digital media (DVD-/+r/w CD HD
If they manage to pass over this in France, it would be a nice move to do the same in bigger countries (Canada ?)
That's a little trite. One has nothing to do with the other, but it is interesting how laws like this in other countries don't generate the kneejerk reaction they do in the US. The supposedly liberal France and Canada both have such a law. Where are all the open-minded, rights-protecting leaders of such countries when those laws were passed?
Point is every country has some stupid laws. And we Americans have been laughing at the French since looooooong before 9/11. That probably started sometime in 1939 or 1940 at the latest. ;)
It's not a tax, it's a levy. Totally different thing in the eyes of the law.
The only issue I could think of, is if there is a double tax on the players... Such that if Apple is already paying a small tax for each drive they put in the iPod, then the retail sale shouldnt be taxed again. I doubt this is the case though.
The levy is added in to the retail price of the product. If I see CD-Rs for sale at $25, when I go to pay there's no extra levy added to that price, but there are the applicable sales taxes. It's not as bad as what you are assuming, though I'd rather not pay the levy to begin with.
It doesn't mean much now, it's built for the future.
[i]The levy is added in to the retail price of the product. If I see CD-Rs for sale at $25, when I go to pay there's no extra levy added to that price, but there are the applicable sales taxes. It's not as bad as what you are assuming, though I'd rather not pay the levy to begin with. Pope [/i]
:)
I agree about the tax vs levy point... I just chose to use "tax", as thats what the parent thread and origional posting itself used. Nothing like being wrong for the sake of consistancy!
Are you sure the levy is applied at the retail level? If thats the case, it would the responsibility of each and every vender ( the BestBuys and RadioShacks of the world ) to collect and send the monies in. That would seem a terribly inefficent way to handle it. That is why I had assumed it would be at the manufacturers level that the levy got applied... or failing that, at the distributer level.
I honestly dont know where it is though... im not refuting what you said, im just looking for clarification.
So does this mean all the iMacs, PowerMacs, PowerBooks, etc sold in France are also supposed to be taxed and Apple is refusing to pay? Or are those somehow "different"? (or, perhaps, is Apple paying those royalties but not the iPod royalties?)
Well, as dumb as we Americans, each for letting his gov't get away with 'preventative taxation', although we USAians managed to avoid it on standard CDr's, I think. AFAIK, we involuntarily concede an 'I might be a criminal' tax for DATs, Music-CDs, videocasettes, and audio casettes.
What bullshit.
As much as can fit on the device, of course.
Though the RIAA-types will seek extra damages "over and above" the tax if they catch you and they win in court.
Also, I know that the RIAA and other RIAA-type groups from other countries are in regular contact. What are the chances they jointly decided to try these laws out in "testbed" countries, ones who have more liberal-leaning governments, thus creating a world precedent for when the RIAA approaches the US Government?
Just a thought -- it's not a conspiracy, it's business. That's how it's done. Coordination and strategy.
I'm not normally an irrational zealous dickhead, but I figure "When in Rome..."
"Hate french" ? This is just stupid if you know you history oldboy.
...
;-)
...
As much as stupid as Bush using the 9.11 in his campaign, don't you think.
I pay tribute here to all the people that died durring terrorist act thru the world.
FYI, Frace is still under terror since decades (since we had some terrorist attack that bomb the metro in the early 90s ! ever heard of it i suppose ? ). If you go to Paris, you will notice some army troops here and there because of that fact.
You "Hate French", but you do not know evey why ! You've just followed the mass-media manipulations brought to you by R.Murdoch's networks (no doubt Fox&Sky are #1 !).
History will judge wether Bush's "behaviours" and "relations" with the business world were legal or not
Meanwhile, i think the debate is over, people still die in Iraq, "axis of evil dictator" is in Jail, country is "liberated", good citizen can go to bed
I bet you the following : "Bin Laden" will be caught and jailled before president election !!! This will be the reason why G.W.Bush will be reelected president of the USA despite is bad homeland policy.
Why ? Just because IMHO this was designed by strategist since long time ago.
Never forget that money is everything and oil rule the world !
Let's hope i am wrong for the future of mankind
The US would shit its pants, as would the EU. That'd be thousands of jobs lost, support ended, etc. etc.
Three terms:
* Apple
* Linux
* Emminent Domain.
If MS folds all of a sudden, people can switch to Apple with new hardware, switch to Linux for extant hardware--or the government can just declare emminent domain, and start a new company with the rights to windows. (It'd probably be a stock market purchase, with the money from the stock going right to the "fair price" for MS.)
Stop saluting your Bush poster and read a book.
And that shows how the definition of "liberal" has been changing for some time now. I imagine, as you imply, that the authors' "guild" is a front for your recording industry. Another example of a liberal government in bed with big business. Don't get me wrong - the conservatives always are - but here on slashdot, we expect to get less sold out by "liberals." Unfortunately, it's not happening.
So there are also "Kneejerks" and "Open-minded, rights protecting" people out here, the problems is that the relationship with the Bush Adm. is way stronger than i would like to! (do you remeber Azores treaty?)
There is that, to be sure - and I'm sure the reasoning comes back to economics and trade, with the hope that Bush would look favorably on Spain.
I'm sure there is great debate in your country about such matters, but the Iraq bit aside, no one really criticizes any country *except* the US for rights erosion, or so it seems to me. As such, I don't believe that blank CD tax would ever have a chance here (though I wait anxiously for the Washington morons to prove me wrong).
If anything, I would say that many of the European governments are selling out their people just as much as the US gov, but the worldwide scrutiny on our government keeps things somewhat in check.
The problem is that Europe is starting to develop a hare-trigger for banning US imports. Afterall, bird flu in one US state does not equate to bird flu being found from coast-to-coast. It'd be the equal of us declaring because a problem was found in Spain that we'd cut off imports of that item for all of Europe... the other countries would have a problem with that.
And when the USA bans all imports of Canadian beef due to one single case of Mad Cow on the Canadian prairies, this is different how?
If you're a zombie and you know it, bite your friend!
Wouldn't Apple be double taxed only if they bought the and assembled the iPod in France? France can't fine Apple for buying harddrives if they buy them from Taiwan, assemble them in Japan, and then ship them to France, they can only tax the imported goods.
Learn something new.
Sounds like a good time for an equivalent to the Boston Tea Party.
Sure, the situations are a bit different, but it's still an unreasonable tax. I remember(atleast i think i remember this happening) a rise in stamp prices back in the 1980's here in the U.S. triggered some protesters to staple tea bags to mailed envelopes, as a reminder to the Boston Tea Party.
I wonder if this is Apple's way of protesting an idiotic law. Just let it go and if somebody really wants to take you to court over it, then you come in with 'fair use' and their attack-lawyers.
If nobody wants to bring it to court (on the grounds that it's stupid and might get shot down), Apple wins. If it goes to court and loses, Apple wins. I'm just wondering how an idiotic law pandering to a profiteering corporation can in any way survive the scrutiny of an intelligent judge.
Screw that.
the major advances in civilization are processes which all but wreck the societies in which they occur - A.N. White
Yep. It's the Atlas Shrugged failure method. :)
"Who is Bill Gates?"
I claim first use of "Error No. 0B" - or "No. 0B error." It'll be the new ID 10T!
We ought to demand a tax on blank canvas, paper, pens, ink, and paint since those can be use for reproducing copyrighted books and paintings.
Those f'in starving (and I'll guess crappy) musicians will have a harder time paying for their supplies than us computer geeks will paying for our blank media. Before long they'll be begging for the government to rescind all the blank media taxes.
--Rob
In the UK, there was never such a levy on analogue media. However, I believe we introduced a levy to cope with the "perfect digital copy" in sound recordings. All this has done is made people use write-once CDRs instead of rewritable DATs as the CDR is not an audio-only format, so is exempt.
Bit of a waste, that.
Hal.
Got them moderator blues I blieve I walk out the do', With these mod-points I been gettin', I 'most never post no mo'
Paper is used for more infringement than any other media. Each piece of blank paper could be taxed, with those taxes going to the rights-holders of published works which may be xeroxed, printed from the Web, hand copied, or otherwise imparted to the paper without permission or payment to the content creators.
If it makes sense for other blank media, it certainly makes sense for blank paper. As for the relative value, look at what we devote educational resources to: 'literacy' and 'numeracy' - activities largely on paper - are viewed as crucial, whereas there is no requirement at all to be able to write pop music to graduate high school. So we should have special taxes on blank media which might be used for pop songs, but none on blank media which might be used for depriving investigative journalists and great short-story writers of income? Are pop musicians more deserving of special income from special taxes than writers? Why?
"with their freedom lost all virtue lose" - Milton
Everthing about that statement is just plain wrong. Of course a company can set a price for its products! Companies have always set "suggested retail prices." Apple just has contracts with its resellers that prohibit them from selling their products at less than the price Apple sets.
Illegal price fixing is when multiple companies cooperate to artificially raise the price of a whole class of product, thereby establishing a virtual monopoly. Since there are lots of other portable music players in the market, and Apple's not cooperating with any of them to affect the market, they're not doing anything illegal.
If the resellers don't like Apple's terms, they just don't have to sell Apple's products. If they want to sell iPods, they have to sell them at Apple's price.
That's the stick. The carrot is that the margins on Apple's products are actually BETTER than resellers get for competing products, which makes them willing to live with Apple's terms.
"We have nothing in common, your attitude annoys me, and your political views are appalling."
The board in its recent ruling even noted that downloading music from the Internet was OK but that uploading (or sharing) was not.
Been there, done that, paid for the T-shirt
and didn't get it
Thanks for the clarification... that does lead me to a question then...
If the retailers ar the ones who collect the levies, would that mean buying levied media from Costco or Sams would remove the levy? Seeing as the entire ( orginal ) intention of these stores was to be a supplier to other retail stores and government employees?
In other words... If I own a small electronics store, and I source my cdr's from priceclub, since they are going to be resold... the levy should fall to me to collect?
Finally found the text (in french) Here
It does say that the hard-drives integrated into TV, VCR or video decoders and hard-drives integrated into mp3 players (like the iPod) are eligible to the tax.
The law does not apply to hard-drives sold for use in computers.
So this law is not that stupid, if you think that the general law that pay back artists for the right of users to make private copies is a good thing.
BTW, another law (here) says that floppy-disk (3'5 inches only) are eligible for this tax. And this law is probably a lot more stupid.
NB : The site http://www.legifrance.gouv.fr messes badly with cookies so the links above may not work at first.
i'm from canada and alot of my friends hate the french because we were forced to learn frence in highschool (like we remember any of it now). And that all our labels have french on them thou i don't know ANYONE who speaks it, let alone only it. (i'm in BC), i hate it how the minority of the country can dictate that EVERYONE has to see that god damn french language everyday on everything.
Thus i and my friends say "Fucking french!"
also offtopic i remember reading somewhere that qubec is on life support from the other provinces, ie without the rest of cananda paying for it expenses it would be bankrupt. Not sure if thats correct as stat can doesn't have spending/revenue on a province by province basis.
Probably not when they abetted your rebellion in 1776, or when you took advantage of the whole of Europe being at war with Napoleon to invade Canada in 1812. Maybe when they gave you that big green statue in New York in c.1876, but even there was a lot of resistance, mostly due to the cost of the plinth. The dough boys were probably chuckling when they arrived in France in 1917, when there had been continuous fighting on French soil for three years.
I hate the French as much as anyone, but it's because of reasons like their lowest-in-Europe per-capita soap consumption. When it comes to fighting, you Americans still owe the French.
--
E_NOSIG
Well the ban targets religous artifacts because currently those are the only things that differentiate the children. In many parts of europe school uniforms are mandatory. The only (partial) exception is religous paraphernalia. If you allow religous garments then you start having to define religions. Then you are in a situation where you have a set of official religions and the garments allowed to be worn in school for each religion. Then you get protests from the unrecognised religions. bla bla bla.
Should a child be excused from swimming lessons as due to religous regions she cannot remove her burka?
Basically it gets messy. But the claim that it is only targeting religious stuff is missleading. It is targeting all clothing/haircuts/piercings etc that are not appropriate, or that interfere with teaching in schools. Its just that nobody complains about the non-religous aspects.
matfud
That could work. Back in the '70s, there was a small Japanese pickup that was sold in the U.S. with a pair of rear-facing, plastic seats in the bed. With those, it became a "car" instead of a "truck," and avoided the tariff on imported trucks.
Q: What does the "B." in Benoit B. Mandelbrot stand for? A: Benoit B. Mandelbrot
Well, actually, it does. I can legally go and download as much music as I want and listen to it and it's perfectly legal. If you want proof, go the the Canadian Justice site and read section 80 of the Copyright Act, it explicitly states this.
:-)
There is a catch however - you can't redistribute what you don't own, so if you're sharing files on kazaa (or anything else) that you don't own personally, you can get sued.
Man I love being Canadian - it gives me an excuse to be a leech!