Need a Job? Move to India

Good luck getting a visa... by crovira · 2004-03-12 04:13 · Score: 4, Insightful

Its not that simple to get a visa to India. Without a visa you can't get hired.

Its not a viable option.

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Re:Good luck getting a visa... by pubjames · 2004-03-12 04:30 · Score: 3, Insightful

Its not a viable option.

Jeeze, you give up easily don't you?

As someone who has travelled a bit and worked in a number of different countries, I expect it isn't that difficult to get a working visa for India. Getting a tourist visa takes a few hours if you visit the embassy. There's probably a bit more paperwork for a job visa, but I doubt it's that difficult.
Re:Good luck getting a visa... by dalutong · 2004-03-12 04:53 · Score: 3, Insightful

It's simple. Some U.S. company hires you, sends a letter to the embassy saying that you are a skilled worker that is skilled enough that the company can't find someone of your qualifications here, and then you get your visa. It is not the h1b visa holders fault. Get mad at your own companies.

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Re:Good luck getting a visa... by sTalking_Goat · 2004-03-12 05:03 · Score: 3, Insightful

It's always important to keep in mind that there are billions who have it worse.
This always sounds good on paper but does little good in reality. I spent a lot of my life in some pretty shitty situations (life is pretty good now thank you) I used to say this to myself all the time. Did nothing to help me feel better though. Mostly I've found it useless to think about those who have it better or worse than you do. Just keep your mind on improving your own situation and survive.

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So this means.. by bob670 · 2004-03-12 04:13 · Score: 4, Insightful

I can go to India, apply for my old job and do the same work for less pay? Well that seems like the very definition of "fair trade".

Re:So this means.. by sdjunky · 2004-03-12 04:16 · Score: 4, Insightful

I figure you meant it as a joke... but I gotta comment anyway :)

The cost of living in India is far below that in the US. You may be making less money but end up better off or the same as you are now.

Of course, that's until India loses all of their work to China.
Re:So this means.. by KingJoshi · 2004-03-12 04:17 · Score: 4, Insightful

Don't forget that costs of living and standards of living is also drastically different. For that lower wage, you'll still be able to afford servents and other things you probably couldn't here.

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In times like these, it is helpful to remember that there have always been times like these. - Paul Harvey
Re:So this means.. by dave420 · 2004-03-12 04:29 · Score: 4, Insightful

Middle America thinks free trade is fair when America's gaining from it, but as soon as America's deal isn't so sweet, fair trade is something to be condemned.
To America, it seems, it's ok for Indians to be poor and begging on the streets of mumbai. As soon as those same Indians out-price the US, they should be stopped. Double-standards all the way :)
Re:So this means.. by philbert26 · 2004-03-12 04:53 · Score: 5, Insightful

Middle America thinks free trade is fair when America's gaining from it, but as soon as America's deal isn't so sweet, fair trade is something to be condemned.
I think you mean "Middle ${western_country} thinks free trade is fair when ${western_country}'s gaining from it, but as soon as ${western_country}'s deal isn't so sweet, fair trade is something to be condemned."
The US is not the only country in the world practising protectionism while preaching free trade. Trade unions in the UK are also complaining about jobs going to India. And farmers all over Europe are heavily subsisided while Africans are finding it hard to sell their crops.
Re:So this means.. by dalutong · 2004-03-12 04:57 · Score: 3, Insightful

As true as you might think that is, I don't believe it.

That's like saying you are only religous until you want to do something that isn't allowed. That's not how it works. You don't do something because you don't think it is right and because it is not allowed. And if you are tempted to do something that isn't allowed, you fight that temptation.

So Free Trade is like a religion. You have to fight the desire to break out of it when it isn't as easy.

--

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Re:So this means.. by rcs1000 · 2004-03-12 05:20 · Score: 4, Insightful

The problem is:

Companies are owned by their shareholders. Directors have a fiduciary duty to their owners: they must manage the business in their interest. They aren't there to manage "expectations", or to drive their stock price. The job of a company is to make money for its owners, plain and simple.

(This is what Regis at Adelphia, Ken Lay at Enron, everybody at Worldcom etc. forgot)

What companies DO NOT exist for is to provide jobs for Americans, Indians or anyone else.

If you want Amercan companies to be run for the benefit of the - abstractly - American economy, or American workers, then that's fine. But you must expect in turn that foreign countries will impose tariffs on American goods, and you must accept that companies will make a lot less money. You must accept that VC money (and other sources of finance) will flow to places where the business environment is nicer. And you must expect that entreupreners will - instead of coming to America - will leave to go to more free market countries.

If you still think that's good for America, that's fine. But you cannot abstractly tell companies how to manage their business.

If you want to discourage outsourcing to India, then there is a way to do it (also known as the South Korean way ;-)). Vote with your dollars. Don't buy from companies that outsource; start a consumer advocacy group (like the ones that pressured businesses not to invest in South Africa).

But don't pass laws.

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--- My dad's political betting
Re:So this means.. by itbwtcl · 2004-03-12 05:36 · Score: 3, Insightful

I have to agree with you, concerning stupidly-inflated market values in the US.
However, the problem is almost impossible to solve at this point.
If the US froze all wages and costs, and waited for inflation to catch up,
they would still have to wait 10 or 15 years for inflation to even it all out.
This would only work if the rest of the world played along... right.

Another thing. I think the reason so many Americans are cranky
about the labor flow overseas is their perception that they are being bled dry.
I'm not sure I could argue with them. They have spent generations building
an industrial infrastructure the rest of the world envies. They have been called upon
for monetary, material, and military assistance by almost every other nation
on earth. There have been years when those in power were of questionable
moral character. But on the whole, the Americans have always had the
reputation as the people you could go to for help when you really needed it.
Deservedly so, I think.

Many Americans are coming to the conclusion that they will never be able
to count on such good will, as they have shown, being reciprocated.
Many Americans are also coming to the conclusion that their government
is out of their control, and in the process of betraying them.
Re:So this means.. by theghost · 2004-03-12 05:38 · Score: 4, Insightful

I agree with you, but i'll offer another reason as well.

A lot of foreign workers come here and take a job for less money than their American counterparts would, live much more frugally than their American counterparts would, and send a large portion of their income back to their relatives.

They are living a decent life (although perhaps not a luxurious one) and they're allowing their extended family to do the same.

To put it in more concrete terms, a single person making $30k can live on $15k, send $10k home, and pay their taxes with the remainder. That $10k is worth a lot more in places like India. Remember from the interview that "Many Indian workers live on between $35 and $100 per month."

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The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.
Re:So this means.. by kcbrown · 2004-03-12 08:08 · Score: 5, Insightful

What companies DO NOT exist for is to provide jobs for Americans, Indians or anyone else.

If American corporations don't exist in order to provide jobs for Americans and to benefit the American economy, then those corporations should not reap the benefits of American laws (and, by inference, American law enforcement), American infrastructure, the American military, etc.
You people who believe that businesses should be able to run in a vacuum are forgetting one very important thing: corporations exist to serve society, NOT VICE VERSA. This is why corporations are given charters by the government. It used to be that these corporations would have their charters yanked if they were shown to harm society, but that sadly has not been the case for a very long time.
Until people such as yourself figure out that the individual is a first class citizen and the corporation should not be, we will continue to see greater and greater abuses of the people by corporations.

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Re:So this means.. by Daytona955i · 2004-03-12 08:23 · Score: 4, Insightful

Vote with your dollars. Don't buy from companies that outsource; start a consumer advocacy group (like the ones that pressured businesses not to invest in South Africa).

That doesn't really work. I'll take the example of walmart. It's a big chain that comes in and ruins most of the small towns it goes into. What happens is they sell cheap (both in price and quality) goods at "low low prices." On the surface, providing low cost goods sounds great... However, they drive out the smaller stores and then when it's not profitable they pack up and leave. What's left? Not much... walmart destroys these towns and people let it happen. I often ask people why they shop at walmart and they say "because it's cheap." I start to explain about how bad walmart is but they say I know but they have cheap stuff.

The bottom line has become the most important thing. This leads to a huge increase in initial income but what happens in a few years? If you don't care about your town or what country you live in then by all means outsource or by from walmart. However, most americans have become complacent. They think that the rights they have in the US are basic human rights that everyone should have. They don't realize what they have and therefore really don't care anymore.

I for one care about my country and I don't like seeing it's economy being hurt by things like outsourcing. You can no longer buy anything that is american made because everything comes from somewhere.

Trade is not bad... trade at the expense of your own economy is. All so a manager (who should really take a paycut if they want to save the company money) can save a few bucks.
Re:So this means.. by Chris+Burke · 2004-03-12 09:07 · Score: 4, Insightful

Companies are owned by their shareholders. Directors have a fiduciary duty to their owners: they must manage the business in their interest. They aren't there to manage "expectations", or to drive their stock price. The job of a company is to make money for its owners, plain and simple.

I can see the Director, his expression firm with resolve: "I'm only here to ensure our investors see a return. If that means laying off our workforce and then giving myself a big bonus followed by cashing out my now more valuable stock options, then so be it."

Sorry, but I don't buy that at all. That's what stinks about globalization -- no matter the harm or benefit to us or India, you can guarantee that the CEOs, the Directors, the VPs will all be seeing nice, healthy benefits to themselves.

So they get rich, screw their workers, and tell us they were "just doing their job". They shake their heads sadly and say "I greatly regret having to do this..." before they swing the axe. Oh yeah, I can see them crying all the way to the bank.

Look at HP: struggling in many ways, huge layoffs, morale is low -- then the execs go off and buy themselves a nice fleet of corporate jets so they can cruise about the country making their deals in style. "Fiduciary duty" my ass.

If you want Amercan companies to be run for the benefit of the - abstractly - American economy, or American workers, then that's fine.

Stop making things abstract, so it sounds impossible or unreasonable. There is nothing abstract at all about a CEO axing a US job, hiring an Indian worker, and pocketing the difference in salary (or generously sharing it with the stockholders, one of the major ones of course being themself).

There is no reason a company can't be run for the benefit of its own employees. I guarantee you I have more invested in my company than any of the VCs or fund managers that have purchased our stock. So why must my company be run in a way where they are encouraged to screw me and help the VCs?

The corporation, despite unfortunate 14th Ammendment interpretations, is nothing more than a legal construct. The rules governing this construct are arbitrary, not a law of nature. Acting like the complete lack of responsibility to anyone but stock holders is an inevitable and inescapable feature of the corporation is a self-serving lie the beneficiaries of the lie enjoy telling far too much.

Me, I'm not eating that bullshit any more.

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The enemies of Democracy are

sad day by pvt_medic · 2004-03-12 04:13 · Score: 4, Insightful

its a sad day when the american dream is to movie to India.

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Re:sad day by bigattichouse · 2004-03-12 04:58 · Score: 4, Insightful

Funny, I've been on a mortgage for the last few years, I own a teentsy tiny itty bitty percentage of my home... sure people calling it "owning", but its more like being 0wn3d. 80% of people are PAYING ON A MORTAGE.. I would bet that only 5% of those people actually OWN their home outright. The only reason for this is that rental rates are actually about the same as mortgage rates, and the interest rates on motgages fell to almost nothing. Using credit to live a certain lifestyle doesn't mean you ARE living that lifestyle, you're just borrowing it.

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meh

Please. by Ryosen · 2004-03-12 04:19 · Score: 4, Insightful

This story should be an eye opener to people who feel Americans cannot work in India.

Yeah, let me just pack up my family, sell my house and all of my belongings, kiss off my friends, and break every tie that I have by deserting my country so I can go work for $12 an hour.

Thanks for opening my eyes. I'll take my chances here in the US.

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Ryosen
One man's "Troll, +1" is another man's "Insightful, +1".

Re:Please. by KrackHouse · 2004-03-12 04:23 · Score: 5, Insightful

The median home price in San Diego is > $400,000. If that same home was $50,000 in India then the $12*8 = $96 / Hour. Not too shabby.

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Re:Please. by dalutong · 2004-03-12 05:01 · Score: 3, Insightful

Two Points:

1) That's exactly what the Indians do when they come here.

2) If you were willing to work for 12 dollars domestically then you wouldn't have to go to India at all. You could probably get away with 20. That's the real solution. Lower the cost of living, and live a less luxurious lifestyle. That's competative capitalism for you. Whether you choose to be competative is your business.

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What comes first, finding a teacher or becoming a student?

1800's Flashback by auburnate · 2004-03-12 04:20 · Score: 3, Insightful

Back in the 1800's, millions flocked to America as the land of opportunity and a place to start over and make something out of yourself.

Are we seeing a mini-exodus that signals that India is now the forerunner for the place of opportunity and a chance for success?

I think at some point the outsourcing needs to be regulated or even curbed back. I think also there should be a public list of companies that have outsourced to any foreign land and how many American jobs were lost because of it. I understand these are highly opinionated, but come on, we are cannabalizing ourselves.

Re:1800's Flashback by DrDoombender · 2004-03-12 04:38 · Score: 3, Insightful

Outsourcing is by far the bane of the american dream. As one Indian exec put it to me: The Americans' self-image that this tech thing was their private preserve is over. This is a "wake-up call" for U.S. workers to redouble their efforts at education and research. If they do that, he said, it will spur "a whole new cycle of innovation, and we'll both win. If we each pull down our shutters, we will both lose."
My basest impression of this comment is that it is a big load of crap. I know well educated people who can't find a job or who were layed off. Thank goodness that most employers allow you to find new departments to work in. Even still, I don't think more education and research are part of the solution. My impression of tech jobs, is that you usually have to go to school your whole life to keep current.
Also, I never once believed that this "tech thing" was America's private preserve. However, how many EU countries are outsourcing to India? No, America's private preserve seems to be outsourcing to lower wage countries, while the news often puts a positive spin on it. The question that pops back into my mind is the one that every laid off/fired employee has, "Who's going to pay for all their products if nobody can afford them, and how am I going to live off of a highly reduced salary?"
as for that last part of the statement about a whole new cycle of innovation...and we'll both win. Yeah, I think that's a load....by both win, he means, India will win because they can undercut american salaries by far.
I think at some point the outsourcing needs to be regulated or even curbed back. I think also there should be a public list of companies that have outsourced to any foreign land and how many American jobs were lost because of it.
I agree, outsourcing should be regulated. It not only hurts the American economy, but it hurts many foreign countries as well. Nike, comes to my mind first. Mainly because they are notorious for their phillipines, slave labor like conditions. I think the first stipulation would be that any US business has to pay the US minimum wage to overseas employees. Plus, they have to have livable working conditions, complete with breaks. Bush is supposed to be working on new jobs for the unemployed, but I think most of those are going to be minimum wage jobs, and you know how those with a tech degree from college want to work at register. Nevermind the fact that we worked hard, sleepless nights to get away from that thing.

Meh by IAmTheDave · 2004-03-12 04:23 · Score: 3, Insightful

Troll me, but fucked if I'm going to leave the good ol USA for India, when so many people from India (half of our IT staff here) are coming to the US because opportunity and life is better in general in the US. If I can't work in IT, I can work in construction, sales, anything. I can work. If I love to code that much, I can do it after work at home as a hobby.

I see no benefit to uprooting my entire life to go to India so I can write code for so little money, when I can get a temp job here that will pay the rent while I'm submitting resumes and waiting to land a job in IT in the US.

But that's just me.

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We need to start taxing companies who do this. by DroopyStonx · 2004-03-12 04:23 · Score: 3, Insightful

I was listening to talk radio the other night, and I'm not sure whose show it was (I was just skimming through), but they were saying that one presidential candidates was proposing a tax to these big companies for outsourcing work to make up for unemployment.

I personally think (in my opinion) that's a wonderful idea. Maybe companies would think twice and start giving jobs back to those unemployed.

After all, you could pay someone from India $5 less an hour to do it, but.. you'll end up paying that back in taxes, so you won't really save much.

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Some Thoughts.... by zungu · 2004-03-12 04:25 · Score: 3, Insightful

American's look down upon the third world as a shitty place. American's think that when they militarily conqured Japan they became masters of it. When Japanese progressed to challenge American industrial might, the American just pooped in their pants and used muscle techniques with the Japanese. This is nothing new to those of us living in places like India. The Britishers had the same arrogance and even racial superiority written all over (Just read any Raj era literature). When third-world opposed American businesses selling sugar water as cola and repatriating millions of dollars that is a trade barrier. And we are then given lessons in the greatness of free-trade. American's bring is huge industrial production capabilities that disturb the local employment structure. When third world complains it is said the progress is inevitable and productivity is more important than living wages for workers. When Indians create world-class (CMM Level 5) software delivery systems benefiting the American business they are accused of stealing jobs. Why is improved cost-benefit not a good thing? If a minuscle number of Americans prefer to go to grad schools how are Indians at fault for this? This is just the beginning pals, more is yet to come.

Another solution? by MalaclypseTheYounger · 2004-03-12 04:26 · Score: 3, Insightful

I can't find the article, but I read a good piece about an IT Manager in Boston was forced to outsource to save money by the CEO of their company.

Instead, he looked at what they would pay an Indian contractor including costs of working with him overseas ($42,000) and hired people locally, like college graduates, to do the work instead. So granted, some poor programmer making $65,000 is out of a job, but at least that job stayed in the USA and went to some college graduate.

Hopefully this will be the trend, I don't like the fact that everyone in IT is going to be looking at a pay cut, but it's better than losing all our jobs/productivity to India.

$.02

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Overblown Hysteria by USAPatriot · 2004-03-12 04:29 · Score: 3, Insightful

As U.S. jobs move abroad, more Americans are willing to work overseas like in India as per a CNN.com story.

Right off the bat, this is wrong. The number of jobs being currently outsourced is fairly miniscule in comparison to the total number of jobs in the US. Somehwere less than a million jobs have gone overseas in a workforce of 130 million.

It's weird how slashdot is so pro-freedom, yet so against free markets and free trade when it can potentially affect them negatively. In the end, this outsourcing will only make the US a more efficient workforce and benefit all consumers.

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You Thought Globalisation Was For You? by Numen · 2004-03-12 04:50 · Score: 4, Insightful

If you did think the benefits of globalisation were aimed at you, you've been mugged. When politicians and business leaders talk about globalisation they mean for *them*. They told you it would reduce costs and mean cheper products, but they didn't tell you that the reduced costs where as a result of sending your job overseas.

And if you think it's bad now, you aint seen nothing yet.

You did, and are voting for the chaps that aren't just allowing this to happen but are actively working toward it. You want it to stop? Start questioning your candidates as to their position on out-sourcing. Ask them what their position is on what amounts to selling off the IT industry in persuit of short-term gain. Ask them what they intend to do once the process of shipping your IT industry over-seas is complete and any competative edge you once had is lost.

But, but, but the Indian deserves to work too! Absolutely they do. The European and the North American also deserve to yield return on the industries nurtured in those societies. The IT industry did not pop out of the ether, and it was not forged solely on the back of private enterprise, it was built from a wide variety of national as well as private resource.

You are responsible for allowing this to happen when you allow your political leaders to persue their own business interests unchecked.

Yes, *tiny* problem by Rogerborg · 2004-03-12 04:57 · Score: 4, Insightful

The only way you'll have a standard of living that's above what we'd consider the poverty line here (structurally sound accomodation, clean water, decent food, minimal health care) is if you get a managerial role. Indian programmers simply aren't paid that well, even relative to Indian living costs. They don't live in nice houses, they don't drive cars, they don't aspire to buying boats and retiring early. They basically aspire to not leaving debts for their children. That's why you see so many of them over here.

Now, if you're quick, you will be able to land one of those management/consulting roles. Now, next question: how long are you going to be able to keep it? Are you really skilled enough to keep ahead of a bunch of talented, enthusiastic - and, not insignificantly - native Indians?

Bonus point question: during any job reshuffle, will you be the last to go, or the first to go?

Extra credit question: when you get tired of chasing jobs that pay well enough to pay for health cover and want to move back to the US, will your period of low wages negatively impact your ability to buy your way back into the US property and financing markets? Think carefully about your answer.

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Live like a king by tstoneman · 2004-03-12 04:58 · Score: 3, Insightful

I have several co-workers that are Indian. They say that the starting wage for someone out of college in India, in those high-wage markets is like 10,000 rupees a month. This is about $2000 US a month.

However, for 1000 rupees a month, you can get yourself a butler/servant. As well, rent is like 1000 rupees a month, meaning you have several thousand rupees left to do what you want.

If you have more experience, I would think 20,000 rupees a month is more reasonable, which means that you could easily save $3000 US dollars a month and still live like a king, which is not bad at all. Even assuming 0% interest except inflation and no raises, after 10 years you could come back with almost $400,000 US. Not too bad...

However, hell would freeze over before I moved to India... I'd rather just take my chances here in the US.

Re:Outsourcing by gminks · 2004-03-12 04:58 · Score: 5, Insightful

Are you telling me that people with 30 years of IT experience need more education?
Are you telling me people with Masters degrees in CS and EE need to be trained?
Do you mean to tell me that the workers who have had to train their replacements in order to receive severance pay were not skilled?

No one who is in high tech thinks that they are "entitled" to their job. We know that a requirement of the job is keeping up with new software, hardware, protocols, etc.
It is immoral to bring foreigner in any country to replace native workers. I find it disturbing that the companies then turn around and blame education, and basically ask for subsidies to do something with all the workers that they have displaced.

We are trained. We are experienced. We are tired of the excuses for "loosing" (talk about needing to be retrained!) our jobs to foreigners on our soil and in other countries. The problem is not lack of education or skills, the problem is that American high tech workers are not being allowed to compete for these jobs.

Let us compete. Force American companies to play by the rules when it comes to H-1B and L-1 visas. Level the playing field, and then less jobs will flow overseas. ginaminks.com/blog

Re:Your Going About it All Wrong. by MoronBob · 2004-03-12 05:46 · Score: 3, Insightful

Unfortunately I do know how right I am. I would like to see some serious reform to the US immigration policy. However I would never blame anyone for taking full advantage of any loophole they can find in their efforts to make a better life for them and their family. Our country is mostly made up of people that share the same dream of freedom and prosperity for all. I am American Indian, Irish, and Dutch and my Wife is Korean. That makes our children all of the above. Immigration is good for our county as long as we don't take in too many criminals and not enough workers which the current policies seem to be slanting towards. I would like to see us close our borders and increase the number of legal immigrants coming into the US. Its just becoming a free for all that encourages dishonesty and law breaking.

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Can't stop globalization by bshroyer · 2004-03-12 05:58 · Score: 4, Insightful

Go ahead and try. Convice your congresscritters to pass the "No Jobs Overseas" bill, and you'll find that American products and services are suddenly higher than similar products and services available for import from Asia, Europe, or India.

Used to be, the cost of information flow was expensive. If you manufactured doohickeys in Dallas, you had your customer support staff located in Dallas. With cheap communications, you can locate your CSR's anywhere, or everywhere -- to save a few pennies on every doohickey you make, which allows you to stay competitive against all the other (foreign and domestic) doohickey makers.

The free market is now global. Can't stop globalization in a free market. Don't want a free market? Try Cuba.

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Re:Getting your head around Free Trade by theghost · 2004-03-12 06:01 · Score: 4, Insightful

Man, you do not understand this. People in India earn less AND PAY LESS. They are not abused, well, not programmers anyway.

Why do they pay less? Because the goods and services that those well-paid programmers consume are made by a poverty-stricken people who are abused.

There's no denying that this is good for India, but let's keep looking at the bigger picture.

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The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.

the 'secret' to India's success by dmh20002 · 2004-03-12 06:03 · Score: 4, Insightful

the only reason IT jobs are outsourced to india is cost. English language and good education make it feasbile, but its all about the $$$. If the labor rates were anywhere near the same there wouldn't be any outsourcing there. It wouldn't matter if everyone in India had a PhD and a Nobel Prize.

All this blather obout how much smarter the Indians are is like the Japanese guy in 'Black Rain' telling Michael Douglas that 'we will own America in 10 years'. Its just bragging based on a temporary bubble. Just after that movie the Japanese economy collapsed and hasn't really recovered completely in over 15 years.

All that said, the only answer for Americans is to do what we did in the 80's/early 90's against Japan. Become more competitive. Unions, tariffs, sanctions will just kill the American IT industry and make everything more expensive in the US. We have to get off our butts and figure out how to compete.

Re:the 'secret' to India's success by easter1916 · 2004-03-12 08:46 · Score: 3, Insightful

All true, but India has a much larger pool of potentially-educated and low-wage people to draw from than Japan ever had. Also, Japan purchased on the basis of a massive property bubble and dodgy bank loans, and when that bubble popped the repercussions drove them away. Neither thing has or is happening in India. Fear India -- it is doing things the "right" way, slowly, steadily, with so much catching up to do and with a pool of some 1 billion people all desperate to achieve a standard of living that you have been used to for decades.

Mods on crack by theghost · 2004-03-12 06:15 · Score: 3, Insightful

Normally, i detest whiners who complain about moderation, but this is a truly exceptional case.

How is it that a post that starts off with a "cleverly" disguised racial epithet (Translation for the clue impaired: "Fuh Q Raghead" = Fuck you raghead.) has anything other than flamebait mods?

The rest of the argument is entirely redundant when taken in context with the rest of the posts on this article, so what's the excuse?

Note to the cretin who wrote the original post: "raghead" is most often applied to Arabs, not Indians. If you're going to be a bigotted asshole you should at least do it right!

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The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.

What an excellent deal! by beforewisdom · 2004-03-12 06:18 · Score: 4, Insightful

- get fired from your job

- give up your home

- move away from your friends

- move away from your extended family

- move your family away from their family and
their friends

- move to a foriegn culture in the 3rd world

- accept a lower standard of living

- take a cut in pay

All so billionaires and millionaires can have a tiny bit more money

What a special deal!

Steve

Whoa!!! Hold on there little one... by cOdEgUru · 2004-03-12 08:17 · Score: 5, Insightful

Now now.. lets not issue blanket statements shall we..

From those last two lines, you come off as someone who absolutely has no understanding nor knowledge of India, its culture and its people.

Sure, I agree that women are abused in various parts of this country, but women arent obviously hated!! Remember, we had a woman as our Prime Minister when the rest of the world was still letting their women run around in Bikinis and swinging to pop culture :) (Yes, that is a blanket statement).

The biggest problem in India is that there are still an immensely large population that has no education, has no healthcare, has no idea how to stand up for their rights. Corrupt politicians are not delegated to the Western world, we have them as well.

The Hindu Religion (Despite being a Christian myself, I have immense respect for Hinduism and for other religions as well), does not look down upon the women, the so called "holy" individuals who wanted to bend their religion to their needs and wishes, decreed that women were inferior. As a religion and among its scriptures and texts, Hinduism has utmost regard for Woman as a Mother, Wife, Sister, Friend and an Equal. And believe me, this religion and the indian culture has existed for thousand more years than the Western Civilization and Christianity (heck, Christianity came to India way before it reached the Western world, in 52B.C when St. Thomas reached the southern tip of India). So yes, this is a Land which is steeped in culture, which has treated women with utmost respect in all corners of it, and yet has been vandalized and abused by people in power, by religious nuts, who had their own agendas.

And when United States (formerly known as Land of the Free) shudders at the thought of letting immigrants who werent born here, having a shot at being President, India has no qualms in letting the Wife of a Former Prime Minister who was born and raised in Italy, get a swipe at becoming the nation's Prime Minister. Also, voting rights for Women, We didnt had to think twice about that either.

Oh one more thing when you are still trying to comprehend.. Gay Marriage is Legal in India (we just dont let them fornicate, now thats another story!) :)

So please crawl back to your trailer and show not your face and your intellect to the rest of us (That if you didnt know was surely a blanket statement, but meant solely for you)

--
Rapid Nirvana

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