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PHP 5 RC 1 released
An anonymous reader writes "PHP just released the first release candidate of PHP 5 after 4 beta releases. It is considered stable and feature-complete -- so get testing!"
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It's funny, I remember when it was a main tenet of programming that data should be separate from presentation. However, PHP has shown just how powerful integrating data and presentation can be through inlining code directly into a webpage layout.
As Perl seems to fade more into irrelevence, languages that hold onto a strong central theme like PHP, Python, Ruby, and Dylan are coming to the fore to take its place. Whenever I see a story about PHP, I think more about the death throes of Perl than about PHP itself.
I have been pwned because my
Hmm... why do we always get new expressivity features and library extensions, instead of new safety features and ways for statically checking our code (such as type checking, a novel but, admittedly, completely impractical and academic invention that only freak languages use)?
I guess because people like me prefer to complain and use other languages instead of fixing unsafe ones...
Didn't have to jump through any hoops that weren't explicitly mentioned to get it installed, and haven't noticed any problems so far. Hopefully this is a sign that the official PHP5 is soon to arrive.
Try not. Do or do not, there is no try.
-- Dr. Spock, stardate 2822-3.
I guess a lot of PHP user base was once doing mod_perl and CGI. I personally use JSP, but often find it too cumbursome for quick hacks.
for the last time people, I am "frodo from middle eaRTH", not "middle eaST".
Try not. Do or do not, there is no try.
-- Dr. Spock, stardate 2822-3.
- for all but the most trivial sites, separating code & presentation is a Good Thing
- PHP supports this kind of separation. google for template libraries.
lol, good point.
I've been playing with PHP5 since Beta1 and honestly, I've never noticed any stability issues with it. Of course, that's not to say that it was stable (could have been bugs or security issues).
PHP5 has really great Object Oriented functionality. I'm glad to see that it isn't far from being released.
I remember reading within the PHP docs about how unsafe it was to use the 2.x release branch of Apache with PHP...something to do with thread safety if I recall.
Anybody know if PHP 5.x has overcome this limitation?
I think you are referring to sites that get killed from too many connections to MySQL (due to the poor defaults in MySQL). As someone who programs for high traffic adult sites, I can attest that PHP can handle loads of traffic with ease, it's the databases that usually fuck up first. And even then that's usually just due to retarded coding practices.
/. uses MySQL without apparent problems, but then again there's a lot of page caching.
Funny enough though,
Hammer of Truth
I wonder if I can install both so I can play with php5.
http://saveie6.com/
(I see plenty of Windows users adding PHP to systems that already support ASP)
In any case, all the talk of "good" design ignores all the new and not hardcore coders who can play with something like PHP (as well as ASP) but not so much Perl.
(note aslo that Apple includes PHP on their OSX boxes)
My point is that, in my opinion, one of the things so nice with PHP is that it's just fun to play with. If some coders want to "inline" their code, let them, and let them have some fun, eh.
It's like the pre-Web days when "designers" got into scripting with HyperCard and Lingo.
Everybody's welcome.
Here's what I do: Bitty Browser & Andromeda
Having browsed only a few ASP.NET howtos but not having had the opportunity (or misery -- since this IS slashdot) to code in it, I'm not too familiar with ASP.NET
OTOH, I am a bit more involved in programming in PHP. I think it's fairly nice and simple enough. Haven't gotten into a lot of the OO stuff but it's still fairly powerful with the simple things I do.
From what I've read, ASP.NET abstracts a LOT of the stuff from the programmer. Forms pretty much take care of themselves, validate on their own, and repopulate themselves for the user to correct. Among other things, this helps isolate code from content.
From experience (which may be very limited), PHP doesn't have this feature. This allows for so much more control over what happens to your forms, but also introduces more code into the mix which could get ugly after a while.
Thus we have control vs. abstraction -- a classic debate. Convenience and rapid development would lean towards abstraction (as anyone who coded VB may argue). Would be nice if PHP had that n00b convenience somewhere while still being great for more advanced coders.
Ultimately, control is probably the choice for anyone who wants to get past the abstraction. Besides, in the long run, you'd probably want to write your own data validation code (or at least implement an open-source version) instead of relying on a (closed-source) language to check for you. That's simply a matter of trust.
For people who think there must be something better to write web-based applications than PHP, I invite you all to take a look at Seaside by Avi Bryant, a web framework available for Squeak and, I think, VisualWorks Smalltalk. It uses continuations to make programming a web application basically the same as coding a desktop application. It features many, many things that PHP cannot do.
For a site like Slashdot, PHP would kill performance. mod_perl caches psuedo-compiled code in the webserver. PHP has to be re-interpreted for every page hit. You can install the Zend Optimizer, but from my limited trials with Xaraya running under it I wasn't all that impressed.
Personally, I think Slashdot needs to be re-written in C. See my journal for the complete idea.
What advantage does PHP have over Perl?
At first, I rejected PHP because of its (apparent) preference for intermingling presentation and logic. As has been thoroughly discussed in another thread, separating the two is not only possible but recommended. That doesn't give PHP any points though -- it just removes a penalty.
Both languages have a wide range of libraries/modules to choose from (although I think the score here goes to Perl). Their syntax is nearly identical. They both run on lots of different platforms. PHP is pegged as a tool for making web sites, while Perl is a general-purpose scripting language that happens to be useful for web sites too.
So, make a business case for me. I manage a development team (I rose from the ranks so save your MBA jokes for another day) and I want to know why I should consider PHP over Perl.
irb(main):001:0>
PHP has a smaller syntactical (is that a word?) footprint. As you said that you manage a development team, this is important. The Perl motto of "There's more than one way to do it" becomes an issue when you've got multiple developers working on the same codebase. You can write and (attempt to) enforce code style rules in your organization, which mitigates this a little bit, but it takes time to write those guidelines, get buy-in, and enforce.
I use perl often, but I consider it a "fire and forget" language. I use it for sysAdmin type work often, when I'm doing something once, and want to write a quick script that nobody (including me) will ever lay eyes on again. For real development, where I'm trying to create a maintainable piece of software, with input from other developers, I stick to PHP.
I used to be a PHP developer, but switched to python-based content management systems due to the elegance and ease of programming in python. However, I was interested to see how PHP had progressed since the last version, and read the article linked by Slashdot.
The main reason I initially dumped PHP was its atrocious error handling. Python and other more elegant languages use exception handling, which is much more elegant than checking return codes and setting error handlers.
I had read earlier than PHP 5 would include exception handling, but wouldn't include the "finally" clause. For programmers that understand and use exceptions, the finally clause is _very_ useful. I try to avoid using C++ simply because it doesn't have a finally clause (and no, the object destruction mechanism is not a good substitute).
So, I became very excited when I read the following:
Note that there is support for "catch all" and for the "finally" clause.
(http://www.php.net/zend-engine-2.php)
However, I couldn't find any examples showing the "finally" clause or the "catch all" clause in use.
So, I went grepping through CVS.
In the changelog for PHP, it is suggested that all exceptions _must_ inherit from a base 'Exception' class, which means that catching and exception of type 'Exception' is a basic "catch all". However, I couldn't find _any_ evidence in CVS that a "finally" clause has been introduced in PHP 5.
Has anyone here found evidence that the "finally" clause exists in PHP 5?
Devin
Hell, just try porting a P/M site to a nice DB so you can push more of the data manipulation functionality to the DB layer where it belongs and you're in for a real tear-jerker. My main frustrations with OSS is that most of the work is done 1) where the work is easier, 2) where most people (unwashed masses) congregate, and 3) with little regard to lessons learned and best practices.
Yeah, right.
I'll look at PHP again when its massive function library is refactored into functions.
There should be no need to write:
$arr = array();
array_push($arr, 42);
When it could be:
$arr = new Array;
$arr->push(42);
i got a few php scripts on a cronjob to do database backups and such things.
i also use it for quick admin type hackie scripts.
personally i recon it's far superior to bash/perl/etc for shell scripting
I'm really getting tired of seeing that particular bit of nonsense trotted out in every discussion here.
To set the record straight: STATIC TYPING HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH VERBOSITY.
Java is verbose, and Java is statically typed, but that does not mean that all statically typed languages are verbose, any more than it means that all statically typed languages are Java.
Consider Haskell, where the quicksort algorithm can, famously, be written in two lines of code:Note the total absence of type declarations. In fact, this function will work on values of any type that can be sorted. And it's also completely statically typed.
Welcome to the world of modern programming, where convenience doesn't have to mean flinging safety to the winds.