A Ready-Made MythTV Set-Top Box in Australia

Anonymous Coward writes "Australian Personal Computer magazine published a review of a new all-in-one set-top-box based on linux. A quick analysis of the device yields some cheats/hacks that not only allow you to enable the advertisment skipping feature they disabled, but could allow system compromise. The system also runs a GPL version of MythTV - anyone else see any licensing issues?" Only if they don't follow the GPL.

Comments

Re:looking

[TheTray]

the source is in the iso.

After seeing the prices they are asking,

[pair-a-noyd]

I am 100% certain they are both smoking from Darl's pipe and paying Darl's fees...

Damn!

Re:After seeing the prices they are asking,

[child_of_mercy]

Those are Australian Dollars.

Multiply by 0.65 to get the price in USD.

Re:After seeing the prices they are asking,

[pair-a-noyd]

Still.
That's freaking HIGH for a PC with Linux on it...

Re:After seeing the prices they are asking,

[mcspock]

You've never tried setting up mythtv, have you?

Re:After seeing the prices they are asking,

[Spacejock]

The AUD is now 0.74, and was recently 0.80 US cents. Makes Amazon much better value for us aussies ;-)

Re:After seeing the prices they are asking,

[Frogbert]

AUD$500 effort?

This is redhat where talking about

*ducks*

Re:After seeing the prices they are asking,

[spronk]

You're making the assumption that most folks are computer/Linux literate. Myth is easy to use and stable (given the right hardware) once you get it up and running. Lots of people who wouldn't even know where to begin to install Linux can easily use MythTV. Those that try installing Linux for the first time, or setting up Myth for the first time end up missing some of the finer points as well. The amount of time it takes to install Linux + MythTV + *properly* configure X for TV out + tweak the OS/Myth for optimal performance + yadda yadda yadda adds up REALLY fast. I know for a fact that I've spent FAR more than $500 worth of my time (based on my hourly rate) getting my Myth machine just right.

Well, is it a modified MythTV

[DarkkOne]

I mean admittadly, it's a problem that they don't clearly mention and link to MythTV's webpage or whatever, but if it's an unmodified binary built from source readily available, wouldn't they just need to point to it?

Re:Well, is it a modified MythTV

[TheTray]

It's modified, but the source is available in the iso, possibly also on the system already. There is also a mention on the last page of the manual. Weither legal or not they should place mythtv links more prominetly, IMO.

Re:Well, is it a modified MythTV

[Ath]

That may be what you read into the GPL, but you cannot cite any text to that affect.

The GPL is pretty general about the issue of how to provide the source code. It primarily reinforces that 1) you have to provide it to those who ask for it and 2) it must be for a reasonable fee only to cover costs.

Re:Well, is it a modified MythTV

[DarkkOne]

Actually, it doesn't have to be on the same media or from the same physical source.
b) Accompany it with a written offer, valid for at least three years, to give any third party, for a charge no more than your cost of physically performing source distribution, a complete machine-readable copy of the corresponding source code, to be distributed under the terms of Sections 1 and 2 above on a medium customarily used for software interchange; or,
Which offers all kinds of nasty things you can do, like put that notice on the copyrights page in the manual that most people don't even glance at.

Re:Well, is it a modified MythTV

[fucksl4shd0t]

So if I want to distribute a commerical product using GPL code I must seperate the GPL code from the commerical code? Differentiate then at a function based level? Class Level? File Level? Logical Level? Can I re-write functions internal to the GPL project to get the output I need?

nonononono.

First, decide if you want your product to be GPL. If not, then you can't use any GPL code at all, on the level you're talking. If you want to include GPL software on your CD, but your actual program is separate and independent of the GPL stuff, no problem. You must provide sources for the GPL product, but not yours.

Second, commercial or non-commercial is irrelevant. Forget about it. The only issue is when you charge for the source code, you can't charge more than "reasonable cost of media" or somesuch.

Third, if you don't want your program to be GPL, but you want to use open source code, make sure you link dynamically to libraries that are LGPL, or another open source license that allows dynamic linking in that fashion.

Fourth, you have to deal with license compatibility. I think it's possible to link to a GPL library statically, or to incorporate GPL code into yours without GPLing your own code, but you have to release your code under a GPL-compatible license. That area is complicated and I don't completely understand it myself.

So, in summary, if you want your program to be GPL, you don't have to worry about separating your code from theirs. You only have to make sure you keep all copyright notices intact, and you note what changes you made to the code and place your own copyright notices around your own code. The end result will all be GPL, so you just want to make sure your contributions are noted. This is important in the future because if you don't, and the core developers all agree to change the license, they could change the license on your code without your permission, but they don't know they need your permission because you didn't mark your code properly.

The GPL doesn't deal with commercial vs non-commercial uses of the software, it only deals with distribution--all distribution.

If you dynamically link to LGPL libraries, you must provide the source code upon request to those libraries, but you do not have to provide the source code to your program nor do you have to GPL your program. If a GPL library can reasonably be expected to be installed on someone's machine, you don't have to GPL your code, I think. Because it's a system library. So you don't have to GPL your code that uses the WinAPI and winelib to compile, since you can reasonably expect the end-user to have winelib. I think. I could be wrong.

Remember, I'm not a lawyer, and the answers to all of your questions can be found at the source.

Re:Well, is it a modified MythTV

[PacoTaco]

Wow, you used "GPL" 19 times in this post. Pretty impressive.

A$1,1799 - Ouch

[deniable]

Call me cheap, but this better do a lot for that much.

Re:A$1,1799 - Ouch

[vranash]

I got 1300 on a currency calculator.. From the looks of the source for this thing it's a via based motherboard (via-rhine chipset) which means it's prolly either whatever via chipset mobo shuttle has out, or an epia based board. Either way, doing some rough calculations, you can put together this whole damn box for like under a grand... In fact Fry's had a media mini-itx case here from somebody (non-shuttle I believe) for like 400 with the pretty little facepanel and dials and crap) Figure in an AMD or Intel cpu at 50-200 bucks depending on how fast you want this thing to be, plus a hard drive (100 bux since their min is 80 gig, and that's being pushy), plus a capture card (Happauge PVR 250 is like 150$ here), and a DVD drive (30-80 depending on brand), plus maybe 90 bucks for a 512 or 180 for 2 sticks of PC3200 DDR.

400+50+100+150+30+90=820$
400+200+100+150+80+18 0=1110$

So even buying everything off the shelf you could probably put together one of these systems for less than that price. Coupled with the fact that they should be mass producing these bastards they should be selling them for sub 700 bucks, and probably 400-500 if they want to be competitive.

Just my many thousand cents :)

-- vranash

Re:A$1,1799 - Ouch

[darxpryte]

You're missing a very important part of the equation. I'm not sure if you've ever gone out and set up mythtv on your own but depending on your skillset it's not a walk in the park.

In other words they're saving most users a hell of a lot of time and stress by providing this all prepackaged and set up.This skips the pain of setting up linux, xwindows, alsa, xine, vid card drivers, dealing with kernel compiles (depending on your distro), lirc config files, xine config files, xine lirc config files, mysql database setup, and a lot of other things I'm probably forgetting. Not to mention the hours spent to figure out how to do it all and what goes where. If I wasn't such a geek and enjoyed this kind of torture I'd definately think an extra few hundred dollars was worth it.

Re:looking

[Anonymous Coward]

Doesn't the GPL state "upon request"?

Re:looking

[Anonymous Coward]

They don't NEED to give a link to the source. They only need to supply it free (or cost of media) if someone who has a binary asks. You, unless you bought this device, have no right to ask the company for the source. Nothing will stop recipients of it from spreading it, but the mere fact that a company looked at a GPL'd product doesn't mean they're obligated to host it for everyone.

Re:looking

[Ralph JH Nader]

It's a common myth that the source code to GPL'd software must be made available for download off an FTP site or something similar. That is not what the GPL requires. The GPL requires you make the source available upon request. That being said, it would appear the source is being distributed, anyways.

Christ people

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't get your panties in a twist every time someone is making money with a method that involves the GPL. Instead of asking the dumbass question "anyone else see any licensing issues?", do some research yourself for fuck's sake.

Re:Christ people

[Anonymous Coward]

The only people that are whining about a company selling the GPLed MythTV code (and complying with the GPL, which D1 appears to be doing) are forum/mailing list monkeys that don't understand why someone would give the result of their hard work away for free. One guy even called D1 sleazy for not giving money to the MythTV project.

The actual MythTV developers, of course, have absolutely no problem with D1's actions and are only saying that they would gladly accept donations from the company.

Re:Christ people

[JWW]

On the Myth tv users mailing list there are some people who researched this. Their conclusions were that the code is indeed on the box and on the iso disks. Most of the source files still had myth somewhere in the name.

An interesting note from the mailing list is the realization that if these people make any interesting modifications, it can be rolled back into the main myth project.

Atomic

[haRDon]

Atomic Magazine this month had a cover CD featuring a modified Knoppix distro for MythTV. Haven't checked it out yet, but looks quite interesting.

Re:Atomic

[squaretorus]

This seems like an idea that the UK publishing industry is missing a trick with.

Publish a rather mediocre low cost of production Linux / OS / general computer magazine but put high quality recent Knoppix etc... on the cover disk to save people downloads / ordering a 3 CD (which you never get round to doing).

Get a reputation for bundling nice things and I'd subscribe for 30-40 a year with no troubles. GIve me a few well written articles, throw a few quid at some OSS dev teams from time to time and the fluffiness gets even better.

How many people continued to buy Computer Shopper and the like for the 3 or 4 pages which were actually an interesting read long after the rest of the magazine went to shit??

Emap - if you steal this idea I'll be quite pleased!

Re:Atomic

[linuxpoweredtrekkie]

Before I had adsl i would regularly buy linux format

http://www.linuxformat.co.uk/

which regularly had linux distros bundled, and also all latest versions of kde, gnome, gimp etc.

Articles were very good as well, they did charge about 6 though.

I think that PCplus also bundle linux distros like mandrake and knoppix, however the magazine itself tends to be aimed more at novices

Re:Atomic

[JoeBaldwin]

We have that, it's Linux User And Developer.

Last issue I bought: full 3CD set of Fedora Core 1. The one before that, Red Hat 9. In a lovely DVD case, as well.

Damn fine mag too.

I find SageTV to be even better

[buddydawgofdavis]

I no longer use my old Series 1 tivo. The hacks are nice, but with something based on a PC, the sky's the limit.

Currently, I'm using SageTV It's a PC based DVR software package. With it, I can currently;

- Record two standard def stations, and a high def station at the same time while watching a fourth video of any type. (Obviously, this requires having two tuners and an HDTV tuner.)
- Record standard TV to MPEG-2, MPEG-1, or just about any other format. This makes it easier to make VCDs, DVDs, or just play the program back on a standard PC.
- Playback using Dscalar to deinterlace the video.
- Play DVDs
- Play DivX
- Record shows as favorites (just like season passes) or let SageTV record things based on my past viewing habits (much like tivo's suggestions only I don't have to bother with thumbs up and down buttons)
- Do all of the above with an integrated schedule, which is free. No need to pay a monthly fee.
- Play and manage my MP3 library (I think you can do ogg, ape, etc. with some tweaks to the config)
- Stream video and audio to another PC over my LAN.

I'm sure I'm missing much more. This thing does way more than any tivo, even a hacked tivo, and it's constantly being expanded. It surpasses TiVo and ReplyTV in every way. I've even found it to be more flexible than MythTV and Showstopper (though they do have a few benefits in some areas.)

Re:I find SageTV to be even better

[Anonymous Coward]

The only thing you mentioned that mythtv can't do is record things you might like based on viewing habits.
Plus mythtv gives you an integrated weather viewer, photo gallery, caller id display, web browser, Multiple frontend and backend setups (Hello having the backend in the basement doing all the recording and nice little epia based wireless boxes upstairs doing the frontend stuff). Hell, once the mfd stuff is done (music will probably be in the next release with video and tv to follow) you won't even have to configure anything. Just plop a new box down on the lan and it'll automagically get access to the backend and livetv, etc.

also, your cost is 0, where sagetv costs 50 or 60 bucks.
Hell, you can even get knoppmyth, which makes installation a twenty minute breeze (that's a complete linux install).

Call me when sagetv catches up.

Re:I find SageTV to be even better

[spronk]

Myth doesn't have "season passes" becuase that's a Tivo term. Other than that Myth allows you to do everything that a season pass does. In fact the options for tailoring the bahvior goes well beyond that of Tivos season pass.

Re:I find SageTV to be even better

[simcop2387]

its not called "Season Passes" in mythtv, when you setup the recording you can then hit I on the keyboard to do an advanced setting and tell it to record the show at that time on that channel every week, or to record it on any channel at any time, or even on that channel at anytime

Re:I find SageTV to be even better

[Jagasian]

Actually SageTV costs more than $60, because it runs on Windows... which costs about $140... so SageTV costs $200 while MythTV costs $0.

I'm no lawyer but...

[Anonymous Coward]

according to the GPL...I thought they only had to provide source to paying customers at their request. No one ever said they had to offer it up for free...

For God's sake

[Nailer]

The system also runs a GPL version of MythTV - anyone else see any licensing issues?

Commercial does not mean proprietary. Selling commercial products using Open Source is great - it often helps pay OSS programmers rent.

Why on earth do the Slashbots immediately assume anyone selling OSS is a) violating the GPL and b) evil ?

Re:For God's sake

[TheTray]

In response to a) they are being very shady about mentioning that it is mythtv. As for b) again I see shades of gray. I have been following this for a while now as I am on the mythtv users mailing list. They may or may not be contributing at all thus no OSS programmer getting paid. They may be in the legal clear with a one liner at the end of the manual but to me they should be more upfront and if possible(ie not if their chapter 11) donate to mythtv for the betterment of the project.

Re:For God's sake

[DAldredge]

They do not have to mention the MythTv name. The GPL doesn't require it.

Re:For God's sake

[FireFury03]

The whole licencing thing for this product has been discussed at length on the Myth-Users list (have a look at the whole thread). Most of the developers are reasonably happy with the state of affairs with the exception that most commented it'd be nice if they made more of a mention of MythTV in their documentation and publicity.

The company in question have also said that they will be contributing back (some of) their code shortly.

Re:For God's sake

[mdielmann]

This is also my beef with the GNU/Linux vs. Linux debate. Nothing in the GPL (that I've heard of) requires that I mention any name, let alone GNU. If I want to make a dstro of Linux and call it AssHat OS, there's nothing in the license to stop me.

Ths result? I call the distro whatever the creator calls it. It's their choice, after all.

Why the lousy shape?

[justMichael]

When are they going to realize that if I am going to buy something meant to go into my home theater, it needs to fit in. That means is should be ~19" x 2-5" not some silly ass cube, it looks like a bookshelf unit.

GPL Compliance

[Crossfire]

I heard about this a bit early - I did some digging around on their website.

The openly admit it runs MythTV (once you find the comments), and that the source code is available ON the device itself...

Technically speaking, I think that actually qualifies for compliance.

Re:GPL Compliance

[Jameth]

Not only is it compliance, it's a damn good way around it. Even if they go under, if you have a right to the source, you DO have the source. If not, it's your own damn fault.

Re:GPL Compliance

[duggy_92127]

Technically speaking, I think that actually qualifies for compliance.

I'm confused. The GPL states that you can distribute binary versions of GPLed code provided that you "a) Accompany it with the complete corresponding machine-readable source code..." That sounds like exactly what they're doing. Why the "technically speaking" or the "actually qualifies"? It is flat-out full-on compliance.

In fact, all they ACTUALLY have to do is slip a piece of paper into the box that tells people to write to them and they'll have the source code sent to them on a disc, for a nominal fee. That would also be full-on flat-out compliance.

Doug

Re:GPL Compliance

[Chris Burke]

That sounds like exactly what they're doing. Why the "technically speaking" or the "actually qualifies"? It is flat-out full-on compliance.

Yeah, the posts in this article are about 50% depressing. Starting with the jackass submitter. "Any license issues?" Not if they supply the source! Are they? Yes? Then what's the problem?

The problem is people who have heard of the GPL, understand it means some stuff about giving away source code, but have never actually read the damn thing.

Discussed ad nauseum on mythtv user's list

[ouzel]

There was a large thread about this recently on the mythtv user's forum.

Fascinating

[flopsy mopsalon]

From the highlights page:

incorporating cutting edge magnetic storage technology, the HMC digitally encodes live television

I find this fascinating. It seems the future of digital media storage involves actually using magnets to encode data. I definitely need to read up on how this new technology works.

Re:Fascinating

[MrIrwin]

It actually says "cutting edge magnetic storage". Cleary this is a hybrid techniqe that combines the best concepts of core storage with punched cards.

OTOH, this is an Aussie site, perhaps Bruce was just a few tubes of Fosters over his bating average.

So many drinking haterade !

[oddbudman]

Its amusing how many of your cry about how Linux is still lacking desktop penetration, yet you are quick to run anybody down using it to make a product for PROFIT (Perish the thought!). Lay down your purism, pour your haterade down the drain and sit back and enjoy the fact that hardly anybody will buy that overpriced box.. Would you all rather it was running windows? I would! I wish it was running on window ME with 32 megs of ram for the power Tivo user. Yeh baby. Some nice pointed out specs on the site crediting those who have paved their way (ie Redhat etc) might be good though.

Re:I've been waiting for this...

[Rukapul]

Company representatives and developers are in contact with the MythTV developers and participate in the MythTV mailinglists.

The source is in the ISO. Some people identified some minor issues of non-compliance but the company already made clear that they wanted to comply fully and also want to contribute some things to the project.

If all these GPL fanatics would do some research before crying out loud...

Re:First

[gabebear]

Any GPLed software can be taken and totally rebraded, as long as you are re-brading it with something you own the copyrights to and then re-releasing it under the GPL

The GPL doesn't give any protection from getting ripped off(while still re-releases are under the GPL), and forbids authors from adding stipulations to the licence that would let you stop people from ripping you off.

How do you think people fork under a different name?

Question:

[errxn]

What happens if you try to watch Mythbusters on MythTV? Something like matter-antimatter annihilation?

They posted to the Myth list today...

[ajayrockrock]

Andrew Jamieson who works for the company in question posted to the mythtv list today and they have the full intention of being GPL compilent (if they're not already!).

According to the email, the developer sent a message to Issac (lead developer for Myth) and I'm assuming that they're going to be working together to make Myth a better product.

Don't listen to the 'tards, this is good for Mythtv.

--Ajay

Re:They posted to the Myth list today...

[PerryMason]

OK, so they are planning to be GPL compliant.

Next question. Where are they scraping the tv guide data from? Currently the only tvgrab_au that I know of is scraping from yahoo without any permission to do so. What happens when yahoo realise this and do something about preventing it?

Suddenly you've got a PVR box that cost AU$2,000 with no guide data to program from. I presume that the market for these things is someone who can't setup their own MythTV box and so couldn't hookup a new tvgrab_au. Do they send out a whole new distro, do they setup the box to give themselves remote access so they can go and fix the things? Either way, its going to be a nightmare supporting them, especially if you sell a bunch of the boxes. (Not to mention the fun of defending yourself against consumers who don't having a working PVR (they were sold a PVR, not a computer) and against the Australian content providers who are on the verge of bringing out their own PVR hardware and who really aren't too keen on copyright breaches (well thats the grounds by which they'll crush the company by keeping them in litigation for the next 10 years)

I was honestly considering building and selling home-brew MythTV boxes like these (here in Australia) but MythTV is just too unstable/changing to put it in the hands of the complete novice. I envisage one or more of the following things happening;
1) They sell a few of them and the spend countless hours (and dollars) supporting them and then go bankrupt slowly.
2) Sell a stack of them and go bankrupt quickly when they can't support their userbase.
3) Get tied up in litigation and go bankrupt slowly.

Re:They posted to the Myth list today...

[FireFury03]

They've already said on the mythtv-users list that they're providing their own listings service for Australia and will be allowing any MythTV users to use it.

Re:They posted to the Myth list today...

[Dausha]

Currently the only tvgrab_au that I know of is scraping from yahoo without any permission to do so. What happens when yahoo (sic) realise this and do something about preventing it?

We call that a partnership. The company should proactively seek Yahoo! permission for the scrape. They would tell Yahoo! that the TV guide derived from a Yahoo! scrape would also have the Yahoo! logo in the lower-right corner. This gives Yahoo! free advertising which should assuage their anger in the 'unauthorized' scrape.

Re:They posted to the Myth list today...

[zenyu]

The way that XMLTV "scrapes" the US TV listing data is horrifyingly inefficient. I know, as a friend is associated with the web site that they scrape. So each MythTV user generates hundreds of web page hits a day keeping updated. They're working to implement an XML (ICE) based listing delivery service that could give each user their data in a single transaction, with no worries of breaking the feed if the web site changes it's layout.

There was a first patch sent to the MythTV-dev mailing list to use the zap2it XML interface a couple days ago. Using it also means you must register with zap2it so they can collect a little bit of demographic data. This doesn't bother me as I've already registered to make the HDTV listings available and make the current scraping process more efficient. And this data doesn't include what you've watched, just tells them who is interested in the service.

If I were developing a commercial MythTV based system I would negotiate with zap2it and other such providers for the data to be hosted on my own server. Which is what this australian company has done.

Re:looking

[Anonymous Coward]

From the owner's manual available here

GNU GPL License

Your Rights Under the GNU GPL

The software used in the Home Media Centre is based on GNU General Public License (GNU GPL) software, with some further enhancements and modifications. This gives you, the purchaser, certain legal rights including the right to examine, modify and re-distribute the source code without the permission of Development One. To allow you to do these things, Development One has placed a copy of the Home Media Centre source code on the unit itself. In order to access the source code you will need to connect a VGA monitor, keyboard and mouse to the appropriate ports on the back of the unit. You can then logon as user "root" with the password "HomeMediaCentre". You can find the source code in various directories under "/root/hmc/". For further information regarding the software and the modifications you may make to it, refer to the MythTV PVR Project at http://www.mythtv.org. However, be aware that you may only modify and distribute the source code in accordance with the GNU GPL. Before you do any of these things please ensure you fully understand your obligations by viewing the full text of the GNU GPL at http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl.txt.

The GNU GPL and Your Warranty

You have been provided with a warranty by Development One. This warranty covers the parts, labour and software components of your Home Media Centre. In order to maintain this warranty you must meet certain obligations. One of these obligations is that you do not modify the software on your Home Media Centre in a manner not authorised by Development One (see your warranty card for further details and other obligations.) This warranty does not in any way derogate from the legal rights you have under the GNU GPL. You may examine the source code without affecting your warranty. You may also modify any copy of the source code not stored on your Home Media Centre without affecting your warranty. However be aware that modifying the original copy of the source code on your Home Media Centre, recompiling the source code or any other unauthorised modification of the software on your Home Media Centre will void your warranty. A Home Media Centre which has had unauthorised modifications, whether made pursuant to your rights under the GNU GPL or otherwise, is not covered by your warranty.

Re:And The First Show Broadcast Will Be...

[Anonymous Coward]

How come EVERY SECOND POST on /. now is about some boring Australian shit? It wouldn't be so bad if any of the stories were relevant or vaguely interesting, but they aren't...they always seem like a desperately-biased editor's barrel-scrapings.

Slashdot is a global news site.

If you are going to whinge, then complain about the fact that a large proportion of stories are US-biased "barrel-scrapings" as well. Since when was this slashdot.org.us?

.org is an international TLD.

Re:1800 austalian dollars

[NailedSaviour]

"That's 1,300 US dollars. Lets just say that it isn't ever going to be a competitor to Tivo."

Which, unfortunately, doesn't really address the issue as TiVo (or any other DVR) is not available in Australia. Even Microsofts' WME is not available here yet. Personally I reckon there is a market for this device and as soon as I manage to collect enough lunch money to order one I am going to.

Considering....

[the_argent]

That the creator of Myth TV is currently out of work, I would like to see some type of money go to him from this.

Re:looking

[mcbridematt]

That whoever decided to submit this story hasn't done enough research re GPL compliance.

I'd buy this *if*...

[slim]

I keep starting speccing up a mini-itx based PVR, but I always give up because the cost racks up, and that combined with the configuration effort makes sticking with TiVo seem very attractive.

Before I bought one of these I would need:

1. Some assurance that the system will be whisper quiet (a friend recently put a new drive in his TiVo, and even the noise from that is now irritating)
   
2. A case the same width as my other A/V gear
   
3. A case-mounted alphanumeric display, so I can navigate MP3s without turning on the TV
   
4. The option of at least 2 DVB receivers
   

1 and 3 are the ones I'm not confident I'd be able to cheaply and easily do on a homebrew box.

Re:I'd buy this *if*...

[radish]

Easy - I'm in the process of speccing this up myself - note it's not going to be cheap. If cost is a real issue and you can forgoe some of the cool features to save $$$ - buy a tivo.

So case wise - it has to look exactly like a hifi component. Check out Ahanix, they make some amazingly sexy aluminium cases - 19" wide, various heights, with hifi style power buttons, barrel feet, centre mounted optical drives, etc. Personally I'm going for the dvine5 which looks just like a full size DVD player, including a tinted panel to hide a remote receiver and vfd display behind. Cost is like $220 for the base case, plus $140 for the bonus pack which includes silent PSU, VFD, IR remote control.

Next you need some guts - forget mini itx, as you and many others have discovered, the horse power just isn't there. Plus, this case takes an ATX board so the small size is not important. You can get a decent board and processor for not much more than a epia anyway. I'm going for an nvidia nforce2 board, with the integrated graphics and sound. This gives me VGA out for my plasma and spdif out for the sound. Make sure you get a board with no northbridge fan - these do exist. So far - no noise. For the processor I'm using an old Athlon 1.2 I have lying around - should be good enough to start off with. Then for cooling use a Zalman. I have one cooling my Athlon XP 3000+ right now and it's totally inaudible unless the case is open and I put my ear next to it. Under 20dbA running in quiet mode. Throw in a quiet disc like a seagate, and IMHO you've got a box which is much more powerful than a Tivo, and should be as quiet if not quieter.

If you really demand SILENT - then check out HushPC - they make machines which look drop dead amazingly sexy, fit in a hifi rack, can be powered by either Epia or P4, and are truly silent, with totally passive cooling. These are custom designed cases & cooling solutions though, so expect to pay a lot, plus the cases are quite small so expandability is limited.

Speaking of MythTV...

[spectecjr]

Given that Grid-layouts of TV times are patented, and the TV scheduling data which xmltv (the MythTV backend screen scraper) obtains for MythTV are copyrighted by Tribune, and it's therefore most likely illegal to use that data in this manner... ... well, just how long is MythTV going to last?

There's a reason you have to buy a subscription for a TiVo or a ReplayTV - because that guide data costs money, and the guide display patent royalties need to be paid.

I can't see MythTV surviving too long if Tribune start complaining - or TiVo or ReplayTV decide to push Tribune to complain about the use of the guide data for free.

Just a thought...

Re:Speaking of MythTV...

[FireFury03]

Many MythTV users have asked the listings providers to provide a pay service to get the listings in a sensible format instead of site scraping - the listings providers just don't want to know about it.

XMLTV is also a rapidly developing project - as the listings providers change the format of their websites, xmltv changes to scrape them.

You seem to have forgotten that there is noone for the listings providers to complain to - they can't complain to the Myth or XMLTV developers (they haven't done anything wrong). Admittedly they could complain to the end users, but that seems unfeasable since the end users aren't republishing the copyrighted data, they're just using it for themselves.

Personally, I would pay for decent quality listings in a sane format if there was the option. The other possibility is to embed banner adverts in the XML - I for one wouldn't complain about a banner advert being displayed on the top of my EPG to help pay for the listings I'm using.

Re:Speaking of MythTV...

[AKnightCowboy]

Many MythTV users have asked the listings providers to provide a pay service to get the listings in a sensible format instead of site scraping - the listings providers just don't want to know about it.

They are working on it: Zap2it Labs. I don't know if MythTV can currently import the data, but from what I've heard the quality of the information they provide over the normal screen-scraping process is much better so they're working on updating mythfilldatabase to support it. I would imagine this would get rid of the requirement for the hokey xmltv stuff which 99% of the time is the reason MythTV breaks mid-release. i.e. Zap2it changes their website one character, xmltv needs to release an entirely new version, MythTV doesn't work right with it so they need a new version, etc. It's a pain in the ass. If we could get the xml stream right from Zap2it in a non-changing format then everyone is happy. I'd gladly pay $5/month for guide data directly from Zap2it provided it was a single fee and not "per-box" or some other stupid licensing.

By the way, for what it's worth, my MythTV 0.14 setup has been the most stable I've ever had. Dual PVR-250 tuners in a dedicated backend system running Debian Sid with 600 gigs of space (4x200GB drives raid-5). The frontend is a Via Epia M10000 Nehemiah box running Minimyth (boots via PXE over the network from a TFTP server so it's entirely diskless and potentially silent, although the Nehemiah board has a CPU fan, others don't. Plug the hardware MPEG-2 decoding on the board works really well now with the latest Minimyth and the open source drivers for the chipset. It's a fun project if you're looking for another reason to get back into playing with Linux other than setting up yet-another Samba or Apache server. If you are squeamish about messing with Linux though, do everyone a favor and stick with your lame TiVo. :-)

Re:Speaking of MythTV...

[FireFury03]

They are working on it: Zap2it Labs.

Yep, I've seen the discussions about that - doesn't help those of us in the UK though. :(
I contacted the RadioTimes (where the current UK grabber gets the listings) - they provide a subscription listings-on-your-pda service, but say they are not interested in providing the listings in XML format (I wonder what format the PDA listings come in, although I suspect they're not as detailed). The RadioTimes listings are far from exceptional quality though - lack of descriptions and subtitles on some minor channels and some of the smaller channels have completely the wrong times listed every week.

By the way, for what it's worth, my MythTV 0.14 setup has been the most stable I've ever had.

I'm running a 3-week old CVS version ATM, which has a much better (IMHO) recording scheduler algorithm than 0.14. I need to upgrade it this weekend but generally it's very good.
I'm using a BT878 card on an Athlon XP 1900+ and just have one minor issue - sometimes the colours during recording get shifted slightly towards green. Seems to be related to high CPU load and dropped interrupts, but it's not actually a MythTV problem, it's a problem with the BTTV driver.

If you are squeamish about messing with Linux though, do everyone a favor and stick with your lame TiVo. :-)

I couldn't agree more - when I was originally looking for a PVR I thought about getting Tivo or Sky Plus and didn't because:
- Tivo aren't available as new in the UK anymore
- Sky Plus had some reasonably serious bugs in the recordings sheduler which had been an ongoing problem for years and Sky showed no sign of fixing them.
- If I want a new feature on Myth then I can implement it myself
- If there's a bug in Myth I can fix it myself instead of waiting for someone to spend years doing it
- I got to try it out for free by using one of my existing computers before splashing out on dedicated hardware

And now I'm using it, I realise the project is also developing very rapidly, which is really good, and even more amazing is that 99% of the time the CVS versions are almost as good as the release versions :)

(I've been using Myth since I read about it on Slashdot last summer, and love it).

One day everyone will be watching TV like this - I never watch live TV anymore, Myth knows what I like and records it automagically. When I want to watch TV I just sit down and choose something to watch from the 120 hours of assorted programs that are sitting on the box at any time without caring when the show was actually scheduled,

How will they update it?

[drewhearle]

Since MythTV is still in heavy development (currently version 0.14), how are they planning to keep users up to date? I use MythTV on a dedicated box at home, and while it's reasonably solid, every now and then Myth segfaults dropping me to a console or KDE desktop. The average PVR user isn't going to like that.

Maybe there's a "watchdog" on the Myth system that reboots the system if Myth dies. The user won't want to wait for the system to reboot every time that they fast forward too quickly (happens on mine) or 'activate' some other bug.

Take the MediaMVP by Hauppauge. It's a Linux-based device designed for use by the "average user". How do they keep it up to date? Well, very little OS or software is on the unit itself. It netboots off a server you run on one of your PCs. The server (Windows app) checks for updates from Hauppauge's site, and when it gets one, it just loads it to the MediaMVP the next time it boots.

Obviously, you wouldn't want to require every user to have a LAN connection to an always-on home computer for net booting (or would you?). Besides, the whole Linux/Myth suite (remember, we need X too) would be a pretty hefty network transfer. With a "closed" device like this one, it'll be hard for users to install bugfixes, patch security holes, etc. etc. without being experienced in Linux (think power user instead of grandma).
I think the Home Media Center/re is going to need some sort of update method for both Myth and Linux. One little annoying bug would drive me crazy if there was nothing I could do about it.

How did parent get to informative!!

[Ada_Rules]

according to the GPL...I thought they only had to provide source to paying customers at their request. No one ever said they had to offer it up for free...

You are somewhat close but if you don't know what you are taling about and are not willing to READ the GPL, stop posting "I thoughts". They can EITHER

1) Provide the source with the binaries to everyone they give the binary to ("customers") and not place restrictions on who they give it to.

or

2) They can provide a written offer to those that they give the binary to to get access to the source for a "reasonable" copying fee. This is where the third party stuff starts coming in because now third parties can use this written offer to request and get the source from the vendor

The relevant section of the GPL says

3. You may copy and distribute the Program (or a work based on it, under Section 2) in object code or executable form under the terms of Sections 1 and 2 above provided that you also do one of the following: a) Accompany it with the complete corresponding machine-readable source code, which must be distributed under the terms of Sections 1 and 2 above on a medium customarily used for software interchange; or, b) Accompany it with a written offer, valid for at least three years, to give any third party, for a charge no more than your cost of physically performing source distribution, a complete machine-readable copy of the corresponding source code, to be distributed under the terms of Sections 1 and 2 above on a medium customarily used for software interchange; or, c) Accompany it with the information you received as to the offer to distribute corresponding source code. (This alternative is allowed only for noncommercial distribution and only if you received the program in object code or executable form with such an offer, in accord with Subsection b above.)

Re:looking

[Anonymous Coward]

False. _Any_ third party.

3b) Accompany it with a written offer, valid for at least three years, to give any third party, for a charge no more than your cost of physically performing source distribution, a complete machine-readable copy of the corresponding source code, to be distributed under the terms of Sections 1 and 2 above on a medium customarily used for software interchange

but they seem to be using option 3a) Accompany it with the complete corresponding machine-readable source code, which must be distributed under the terms of Sections 1 and 2 above on a medium customarily used for software interchange

A MythTV user writes....

[ollyg]

Over the past couple of months I've been putting together a MythTV system at home. My overall impression is that it's a fantastic piece of software, that's getting better by the week

My hardware cost (in the UK) was around 600GBP, including:

semi-posh case from Coolermaster that looks good under the telly
AMD Athlon XP2200 based system
160gig hdd
Hauppauge PVR350 MPEG2 encoder/decoder

which makes this article's product seem very competitive, really (at, what, ~500GBP?). Especially considering the fact that mine took days and days of configuration (and I'd humbly consider myself to be a GNU/Linux pro) to get it 'just right', and some things still don't work properly (e.g. DVD menus).

As for the advert skipping thing... I don't actually use it. I have my Myth's remote control configured with a button that skips forward by one minute, and another that skips backwards by 10 seconds. This means I get to an ad break, skip, skip, skip, possibly skip backwards a couple of times then back to CSI :-)

I think we should welcome the incorporation of maturing OSS projects such as this into commercial products. There will surely be positive feedback to the community in the way of features and bugfixes. Don't give them hassle over the lack of ad-skipping - it surprises me just how much people forget how much of the excellent Internet and TV programming is brought to us through this revenue stream and we take it for granted.

Oh, yeah, there's some crap programming too, but that's why I have a digital video recorder to avoid it all :-p

Re:I've been waiting for this...

[laird]

"MythTV gives the source code away for free (GPL) - why should anybody who uses it any way automatically be obliged to contribute back to it?"

I didn't say that they _had_ to contribute to the project. Clearly, as long as they abide by the terms of the license they aren't compelled to do more. I said that I hoped that they had the integrity and brains to do more than they're absolutely required to do.

i say "integrity" because the core of their product is MythTV, so you'd think that they'd want to do more than simply ship MythTV -- you'd think they'd want to work to make it better as a way of "paying back" for all of the work that MythTV developers have done.

And I say "brains" because participating actively in the project would earn them credibility in the community that would be cheap PR and sales compared to a traditional marketing campaign.

I agree that they're likely a very small company with limited resources -- that's what I meant by "on the low end of the food chain".

"Some of you open source zealots come across as totally paranoid whiny control freaks. There's absolutely no pleasing you."

That seems a bit extreme, given that you don't know me, or what I advocate (aside from misreading my post). In fact, I actually said that what this company is doing was good ("saves some time configuring hardware and software") but that I hoped that other vendors would step in that would add a bit more value (custom hardware more suitale for the A/V component market, improve the software).

I should know better than to respond to an AC...

I tried this...

[whizkid042]

I tried building a mini-itx based PVR solution, using both freevo and mythtv, last summer. I found that the mini-itx board that I purchased just didn't have the speed to support the application. Granted the processor was a Via C3 running at 800MHz, but I thought that should be pretty good, since alot of people talked about running these things on Celeron 700s, etc. But alas, no ... the mini-itx has now been relegated to serving as an MP3 server/storage box.

Branding

[Alan Cox]

Absolutely - look at "Java Desktop" (aka 'Linux', 'Gnome') for an example. Many projects go as far as to ask that you rename any forks to avoid confusion.

At the end of the day these guys are not selling MythTV. They are selling an appliance. It happens to run MythTV and come with an ISO including the sources (now..), but to most users its a box that records tv programs.

earning money sounds evil

[Teddy Caddy]

Nailer, you make a great point. There is a general attitude from a lot of people that anything you do to make a profit is evil. And we should be ashamed for anything we do for profitability. Once anything "goes corporate", it is no good. Yeah, I will be the first to admit that there are some evil people working in corporations. Money makes people do bad things. I think we all know that. But most of us live in a capitalistic, free market economy. Well, we all gotta live and support oursevles/families. Would you rather everyone be lazy and not try to work? There is nothing wrong with earning an honest buck. This company is not going to become the next M$ by selling MythTV boxes. Working hard and adding value are good things. Customers reward this by buying your product. Making the PVR installation easier is a value-added benefit. And aren't we all supposed to make sure we like our careers? I mean, you must like what you do to be happy at work. Well, I think the only reason we read slashdot is because we like to. And we use OSS because we like to. Therefore, wouldn't all of us be happy with careers related to OSS? So maybe the Australian PVR company isn't perfect, but don't they deserve a little recognition and awe?

Missing the point?!

[sandbenders]

I think a lot of people are missing the point with this..... For Linux fans, even part-timers like myself, EVERY PRODUCT like this is a victory. This is a cool product, a cool idea, and a nice tip-o-the hat to the MythTV team- someone thinks their product is ready for prime time.

I know licensing is important, but it seems to me that we need to support first and ask questions later. Every company that publishes a viable linux-based app or hardware device pushes us closer to true choice in the OS market. I'm not suggesting that we be blind about it, but when I read the comments for this article, the first dozen are arguments about licensing, which is kinda sad. Not one well-moderated comment in support of the product. Are we all on the same team here, or what? I think we need to get better at sticking together.

Re:Hack Away Folks

[Chris Burke]

If anyone is dumb enough to conenct one of these to the net and run a telnet/ssh daemon that allows logging in as root, then yeah, they're pretty hosed.

Aside from that, how does having the root password help? Someone would have to gain access to the system as a normal user in the first place, which would still let them run a spam relay.

There was a "hack the OpenBSD box"-type contest some time ago, and the webserver on port 80 displayed the root password for all to see. As people quickly found out, that didn't really do any potential hacker a lot of good.

Granted, it'd be better for security if they didn't publish it, but in general you don't want unauthorized people gaining any access to the system in the first place.

Re:The only thing I see

[An Onerous Coward]

1) The "bias" comes from the submitter. While Timothy's response is tautological when taken literally, it implies that (despite the submitter's confusion on the issue) the GPL doesn't automatically forbid commercial use.

2) It's not like the Unwashed Slashdottian Hordes hunted down the manufacturer and mounted him on a pike outside the castle wall. Collectively, they surfed the site, discovered that the source was included, and said, "okay, we're cool."

3) Given the relative frequency of commercial misappropriation of GPL'ed software, the question of "does this use comply with the GPL?" is one that needed asking.

4) How a "slahsdot is teh BIAS" post gets modded up as insightful is beyond me. It's like pointing out that the editors are carbon-based lifeforms. We know they have their biases, and we likes it that ways.

5) I like making numbered lists.

The only thing that I would criticize is that Timothy could have investigated the licensing issues before posting the story. But with all the folks here desperate to get modded up for a bit of legwork, it's not a huge deal.