Slashdot Mirror
AppleCare - How Many Problems is Too Much?
steeviant wonders: "I live in New Zealand, and have been dealing with AppleCare Australia over issues with my PowerBook G4, which has needed three replacement power supplies, one battery, two motherboards, a top case, and a screen replaced under warranty, and it now has another hardware problem. I'm not satisfied that AppleCare Australia think it is acceptable for my PowerBook to have nine problems in two years, and want the machine replaced, but they are refusing. I have scoured the apple.com.au, and apple.com websites trying to find some way to contact anyone to try to get AppleCare to reconsider their stance on this issue. If New Zealand had an Apple branch office, I would simply take them to court, but even that is not possible as their computers are sold through a local distributor. Surely Apple don't consider this appalling number of failures to be acceptable for a computer which cost over NZD $9000. Can anyone suggest an avenue through which I can contact Apple in the U.S. for help?" Sometimes handing technical issues defect-by-defect works, however it seems to me that there are many cases where it would seem to be a waste of time...both the manufacturer's and the customer's. Should manufacturers be required to replace an entire machine after a certain number of defects in a specific time period, or might there be a better way to handle these kinds of technical issues? Update: 03/31 3AM EDT by C : steeviant wants to let everyone know that Apple has offered to replace his machine with a 'like for like' model before this article was even posted. So, "All's well that ends well." for some, how about you?
Screen: Check
Motherboard: Check check!
Battery: Check
Top shell: Check
Power supply: Check
The only thing on that machine that may still be original is the bottom shell cover! Well, maybe the modem, optical drive, ram and airport card are still original too.
The video card is on the motherboard, as is sound, CPU, and all the ports. The only thing separating this machine from a new one is this one has known issues and a new one has unknown issues.
I would wonder if perhaps the owner has bad power at his house? Maybe that is causing all the issues? It seems curious to go through batteries, power supply, and motherboard and not suspect dirty power.
GPL Deconstructed
In the US there is a "Lemon Law" for automobiles. After 3 major defects you can return your car and get a new one.
I've always been of the opinion that there should be a similar law for electronics/computer systems. Sometimes you just get a bad equipment and the best course of action is to replace the entire thing.
~.Evanrude
I work at Dell, and typically, if a person has 3 services within a week and is still having problem, or several within the past month, or a long standing history of problems, we usually replace the system if the customer requests it. the service calls cost somewhere around 200 each to our cost center, so as soon as a machine has a service done, we've lost our profit on it and are taking a loss. apple care sounds like its insurance though, so I guess they don't care how many times it gets fixed, since it doesn't come out of apple's pocket.
posting anonymously for obvious reasons
So, my 2 cents... They shouldn't be "required" to, but they ought to, if only to keep their customers happy. The notion that the customer is always right seems to have been misplaced in the recent past.
;)
I don't know if there is the concept of the "lemon law" in NZ. But here in the US, I'd pursue it under that. For those of you that think the lemon law applies only to cars, you are wrong.
One thing I've noticed about Apple is that once you've gotten one of their computers, they don't want it back. Take for example my one friend who bought a G4 Cube a couple days after they were released. Now, we all know the issues that these systems had, but obviously my friend wasn't going to be aware of them with the system being a matter of days old. So he went and (imho, foolishly), spent about $3500 on a new Apple G4 Cube. He recieved it and started having the normal problems; randomly resetting/shutting down as well as instability. This was caused by the neato heat-sensor power button where you don't need to actually touch it, but merely pass your finger in front of it. Cool idea but a flaw execution. So he naturally called apple and after spending about 6 hours on the phone with them, they finally agree to let him ship the machine in. Move forward several weeks, he gets a refurb (they adamately refused to give him a new system), and it too has the same problems. Long story short, he eventually sold it on E-bay for $2,400 after 2 refurbs and gained a finely-tuned loathing for apple and all its products from this consumer experience.
Maybe apple has gotten better? Not really. My boss and I were at an Apple Store buying 2 new dual cpu G5 systems for Maya, to both act as render stations and actual workstations. We get back to the office with said computers, unpack, etc, and the first one is running fine. The other however, just refused to stay up; we'd start the OSX updater, and it would reboot not too long after. Anything really we did, it would reboot or freeze eventually. Given that the system was 100% new, we didn't have time to fix a new computer tha we just paid $3,000 for. So we repacked it and brought it down to the Apple Store, and after arguing for quite a while that it was not indeed the software (the system wouldn't stay up long enough to have anything installed), and after blocking their polite attempts to say it was our fault, and an hour later, we had a new system that worked just fine when we plugged it in.
So in summary, I'll say that Apple systems generally work great and usually do not have these types of issues, but if something does happen, Apple will probably be the last to really care. You can see these attitudes reflected in the problems the iBook and iPod has had regarding their hardware. I rather doubt the US applecare people will be any better, but it might be worth a shot.
"What can a thoughtful man hope for mankind on Earth, given the experience of the past million years? Nothing." -Bokonon
Because thier batteries last for x hours, and (taking recharges*time on each charge) yours lasts for x +1000000 hours.
They'll run through $150 (or more) of batteries while you'll pay $50, while maintaining a smaller form factor in yours.
Ain't Apple great?
your original iPod was $500. it was not sold under the pretense of lasting forever. right now, you can ship it back to apple for $100 and get the battery replaced. that's one fifth of the original cost of the unit to make it functional again.
paying $8 to replace batteries on a $30 mp3 player is over a quarter of the price of the original unit. and the said battery lasts a lot shorter than lithum battery in iPod, requiring much more frequent battery replacements.
i think you are comparing apples to oranges here. diminishing battery capacity is a fact of life. until some miracle new technology comes about, apple cannot do anything about this. (of course, they could post a disclaimer that lithium battery has inherent natural lifetime... however, unless industry as a whole decide to do this, why should apple be handicapped for being honest? it's not like lithium batteries used by other companies are immune from the same problem...)
repeated component failures in a computer is just bad QA.
so it'll getted modded to -1. But here goes.
Call Apple Corporate. Ask to speak to a customer care specialist. Explain to them the basics of your problem. Before you call, collect all the "evidence" you can. I don't mean finger prints and dumb stuff like that. I mean, names, case numbers, repair dates. Make sure you have that in order and the first thing you are going to want to do is walk through the details of each and every repair.
Now here's the kicker. Also find a copy of the Applecare Agreement and have that with you. Find as many relavent terms and phrases in that document as you can. Example; "repaired or replaced", and "under contract", etc, etc. Also try and think back to all the dealings you've had with the customer reps you were dealing with. Yes, it's pedantic, but being civil and having common courtesy and letting them be the unruly ones can win a lot of times, especially with the customer care specialists, because they've only got one job, and that's to diffuse pissed off customers. If you make it easy on them, they'll probably give you things, like spare batteries (though that's a rarity).
Oh, and also send of a polite letter to sjobs@apple.com. He doesn't read them, but someone does, so get in line. Your patience may be rewarding. But if your all in a fit and pulling your hair out, feel free to suck on a egg.
Don't Ask Questions. I don't know the answers and even if I did I wouldn't tell you.
apple's warranty, just like most others, leaves it up to apple's discretion to determine how the unit will be fixed.
repeated problems do suck. but it's the standard of the industry, i guess... if you want more assurance, i'd go with other companies with unofficial history for complete replacements...
Apple has agreements with their parts manufactuers to warrenty parts. I learned this while talking with an apple CSR after my brand new powerbook arrived with a defective screen. Because the screen was flawed, apple wanted to capitalize on their warrenty with the screen manufacturer (Samsung). I don't know if this means they got the new screen for free, or what.
Given this kind of arrangement I don't think you have much chance in convincing them to give you a brand new machine.
My own powerbook (15" 1.25Ghz) has been in for servicing 3 times since I got it in November. In general apple's customer service has been terrible. I'm trying not to let it get to me though, but I'll think carefully before I buy my next apple product.
---
I support spreading santorum
My first dealings with apple was when I decided to switch and get a powerbook alum. It was a great machine, even though the battery life was 1.5 hours. I started having the white spot problem and the screen died. I talked with apple and sent the computer back. Since they fixed it I haven't had any problems, but like someone else said it's just like any other computer maker. All products have problems, but it's all in how the company deals with it.
It seems like apple's arm must be twisted to react to problems with it's hardware. Look at the ipod battery issue. Given that it was a small problem, but a reported one, apple sat on it until it got out of hand. The powerbook white spot problem wasn't taken care of until too many people had the problem. I've read of similar issues with the ibooks screen and motherboards.
I really like using apple products (OS X, powerbooks, ipods) but it concerns me when a company is reluctant to fix their hardware, and since apple is the only maker of the hardware we have to either raise a huge stink, or wait till they feel it's a wide spread problem.
I feel I have to buy the applecare protection because the parts on powerbooks are so costly it's not worth the risk. If I was more confident in their workmanship I wouldn't get one. So far they haven't given me reason to think otherwise.
Firstly, the lemon laws vary state by state. But, in most of them, the law doesn't talk about the number of defects. It talks about the number of times repair is attempted on a single defect without success. If they fix it in (usually) 3 times or less, it's not a lemon.
If you have to destroy your iPod to replace the battery then I'd say you should not be trusted around anything electronic. I got a used iPod and replaced the battery in about 10 mins. The company I bought the battery from even included a couple of small plastic wedges to use to open the case without scratching it.
IANAL, YMMV etc.
You can get remedy through the Consumer's Guarantee Act, which requires that either the retailer or importer/wholesaler (if the retailer is out of business or no longer in a position to remedy the problem) must provide goods and services fit for purpose, and be of a sufficient quality to work correctly. Note that this act is usually (unless you get a good lawyer) relevant to goods and services purchased for consumer use rather than for business use.
It sounds like the device in question is not particularly reliable.
Do everything in writing, including providing them with a summary of the issues and remedies already attempted. cc the supplier (I think in this case it's Renaissance Corporation Limited).
If rarking them up this way doesn't work, for the small cost of ~NZD45 you can file a claim with the small claims court which will allow damages of up to either NZD3000 or NZD5000 (I can't remember which) to be awarded (which won't be enough to cover your losses), or you can engage lawyer and take them to court, and possibly settle for the amount you are out of pocket, plus consequential damages. In NZ you would be surprised how fast a company remedies a situation when a bailiff turns up with a court summons for a company director. You can get the names of the director(s) from the New Zealand Companies Office.
Fast, cheap & reliable. Pick two.
nothing like x86 where hardware is working but the software driving them aren't... :P
I've heard the whole sorry saga straight from the horse's mouth. He's come over more than once wanting to borrow my iBook PSU to confirm it's his PSU that's dead not his PowerBook; I've seen the ugly flaking paint that resulted in his top case being replaced, and heard the stories about the other failures. Recently I had him round to target-disk a backup image of his HD onto my G5 (which incidentally has the power supply chirp issue, and my iBook has had a logic board replacement) in the hope that his machine would be replaced soon.
Apparently Apple were suggesting that maybe he was abusing it, which is somewhat ironic considering I'd expect the HD and optical drive to be suffering in that situation, and those two *non-Apple* parts are still working fine. About the only ones that haven't been problematic, in fact.
I have had one of my powerbooks replaced and I have lobbied on behalf of my customers on a few occasions sucessfully for replacements. There is no firm threshold, but usually after 3 major repairs (logic board, HD, etc) you can argue successfully for a replacement if you are still under warranty. 1st, like previous posts, gather all prior case numbers etc.... If you took it to a shop get their SRO numbers from your repair. Apple can look up the case history on your machine, but it is more important that you demonstrate that you are aware of the history and can communicate it. 2nd call 1-800-SOS-APPL and get an operator. Ask for Customer Relations. 3rd outline your case including any Case #'s, Service Providers SRO's, current problems. FYI Apple will never consider a plastic part defect as a reason for replacement. If you worked with an apple authorized service provider ask the Service Manager if you can mention him/her. --He/She might just offer to call Apple on your behalf. It does not help to get upset or emotional with them. Be professional. If you don't get anywhere you can call back and ask for Executive Relations --usually this won't get you further, but in one occation it helped. As a concession short of replacement I have gotten a free Applecare warranty extension on a machine that had a few repairs. As a side note, I have noticed a significant decline in QA ever since Apple shifted production to China back when the Ruby/Indigo iMacs shipped. Sometimes I wish we all cared more about quality than the price.
From what I've heard about Apple repairs, it's the luck of the draw as to how you're treated. :(
Reasons like this are why I skipped out on AppleCare and went with a CompUSA warranty.
. asp
http://www.compusa.com/tech_services/serviceplans
Notice the "No Lemon Guarantee" which says that the product will be replaced if a single component fails three times. I've had several amigos with laptops that have failed who have ended up with a better generation one, such as going from a G3 PowerBook to an original G4 TiBook, at no cost over the inital price of the warranty.
My brother had run the gamut of problems on his 1st generation 12" iBook in the 2 and a half years he's had it. CD tray issues, logic board failures... he had basically every part of the machine replaced in that time. About a month ago the CD tray stopped working, he sent it in again, and it came back not entirely fixed. He pushed a little harder, and they offered to replaced his old G3 iBook with a new 800 Mhz G4 iBook with slot load drive (the model in the current line with the closest specs to his machine), and threw in the bluetooth module on there as a show of good faith. Plus, they prorated his 3 year applecare, and wrote him a check for the months left on his Applecare for the original machine that he won't use.
Again, YMMV, but my family has had nothing but good experiences dealing with Apple support.
No offense to the original poster, BUT THE MACHINE IS OVER 2 YEARS OLD. I've dealt with Apple, Dell, HP, over similar issues and none of them want the machine back, and they will each make you jump through hoops to get the machine taken back.
It varies from vendor to vendor but typically here's how it works. If within the first 60-90 days after you've purchased your machine, and you've had enough significant repairs, all the vendors above will take the machine back and replace it. The kicker is this rarily happens.
Say on the last Dell laptop (w/ 4yr Gold Care Support) we had this happen to. The laptop's motherboard needed replacing within the first 30days of ownership. They did this no problem. The user starts experiencing problems again, about 2wks down the road they think its the docking station screwing up the laptop. The repair the laptop and replace the docking station. Add another week to the total. The new docking station is in, the user uses it about 2 or 3 times before going on vacation. Add 3 weeks. User comes back, and within a week minor problems start happening again, within two weeks, we're back at stage one. The replace the docking station. 3-4 weeks after they replace the motherboard. Anyway come 6 months in, I request they replace the machine. It's not a year old, and obviously something is wrong. They won't replace the machine because its over 90days.
I'm lucky, I've dealt with Dell too frequently. I hang-up, call back in and request hardware exception assistance--basically this is were you send your issues directly to an engineer, if they think its a design flaw they request the machine back and replace it. Its hit or miss, but our machine got selected, and Dell takes it back.
I've had Apple do the same thing, but only if the machine is under a year old, and typically within the first 4 months (120days). The problem is its very hard to determine if a machines a lemon within the first 90 days. But to this day, I've made a mental note, if the motherboard needs to be replaced within the first 90days, request a machine replacement. Its easier to deal with their irritation at this stage, then it will be when your tired, frustrated, and way over your 90 day return policy.
Apple does take machines back, lord knows I've bought enough refurbished products from them to know this is true. Dell does as well. I found my return to HP the easiest. But I just don't deal with them frequently enough to know if thats always true or some random act of kindness.
Your problem might be that your not getting exactly NEW parts to begin with. I worked out nintendo for a bit, and their refurbished/re-manufactured/repair models were always pieces and parts from other gamecubes that passed certain tests. You may be getting parts from other defective powerbooks, but the parts have passed the preliminary checks. So, it may not be costing apple all that much to replace your parts, because they just switch out working parts from defective models. Now, I have no idea whatsoever if this is how apple does their replacements, but it could explain why your having so many problems. Your replaced parts are not necessarily new.
Ban Reality TV!
A few years ago I had major problems with a G4 tower I had purchased. I sent it back through aplpe care and they fixed it, supposedly. The machine kept giving me problems. After about 8 months of dealing with apple and with my apple seller, I was getting nowhere. I had a machine that wouldn't work. By chance I happened to read a very small blurb on the back of one of the apple booklets that came with my tower and it stated that if I wasn't happy with the machine I could return it for a new one or get my money back. My apple seller called apple right away and told them I wanted my money back. Apple then offered me a free upgrade to the top of the line machine. I cannot remember on what piece of paper this was written on, all I know is that it was one one of the original documents that came with my tower. There is hope my son.
My eyes, my eyes! These goggles do nothing!
Since I submitted this story Apple have agreed to replace my PowerBook because of what appears to have been a typo in the email I recieved from Renaissance, Apple's NZ distributor.
They still do not accept that nine failures in little over two years (25 months) is enough to warrant the replacement of my Powerbook. They agreed to do this before this article ever saw the light of day.
Apple were supposed to be contacting me today to inform me of what machine they would be offering as a replacement, but as yet I have not heard. Perhaps they changed their mind about offering a replacement after recieving bad publicity. I'll keep everyone posted.
This laptop is two years old. Did you not read the post?
It is a standard 667/512Mb/Combo, I ordered it they day they became available and recieved it about a month later.
My receipt states the price of the unit as $9,617.88. The AppleCare agreement I bought was $606.38, the replacement battery I had to threaten legal action to get because Applecare suck cost MagnumMac $239.00 +GST, and the replacement power supply I bought to stop the machine electrocuting me through the corners of the case cost around $250.
Stress caused by trying to get Apple to replace my cursed PowerBook: Priceless.
You're calling me a troll?
Luckily poor defenseless Apple have people like you to rally around them and protect them from merciless trolls like me.
The problem is that when I pick the machine up, or move it, or sometimes ever just unplug it from the power it crashes. Apparently it's the battery connector inside the computer.
I've removed the battery maybe ten times in the life of my PowerBook, mostly to quote the serial number to Apple techs, or to write my name on the inside of the battery compartment and the battery with an indellible marker, so the wear-and-tear argument doesn't wash.
Now that you've told AppleCare you have an iPod, they're going to mug you.
You know why Englishmen drink warm beer?
Because they own Lucas refrigerators...
I just went through the process of getting my iBook replaced quite recently (the new one should be getting here tomorrow, actually).
In the past year (I've had it for 15 months, but the problems didn't start until a year ago), it had been in for repairs five times, and not long ago, it started having issues again. Nearly everything in it had already been replaced once already, if not more times than that.
The previous couple times I'd called in, they'd hinted that they'd do something about it if it had any more problems. For a while it was doing fine, I suspect because I got a new logic boards after they'd resolved the problems they had been prone to. The new logic board was fine, but other stuff started to go.
In my case, I didn't even have to ask them about getting it replaced this time. I think it had enough frequent flier miles from travelling back and forth across the country from Boston back to Apple that I must've earned a new one. Although it had been fine for a few months after getting the original problems resolved (after a few tries and a few logic boards), they agreed it was ridiculous that it had had so many problems, and they voluntarily replaced it for me without me having to suggest it. I had a few problems with FedEx taking forever to ship the old one back to Apple so it could be processed and the new one sent to me, but everyone at Apple has been extremely helpful about it.
Without exceptions, everyone I've talked to on the phone has been friendly and professional, and they've generally gone out of their way to get stuff taken care of as well as they could and as quickly as they could. The past couple days, as I've been calling in to check up on the status of the whole process, I've amazingly been on hold for a grand total of under five minutes before getting a real person, and that's over three different calls combined. Except for this most recent time, I've been shocked by how quickly my computer has been returned to me. I call one afternoon, the shipping material arrives the morning, Apple receives and repairs it the next day, and the morning after that, I have a computer again.
Of course, I would prefer that nothing had gone wrong with my computer in the first place, but this is the first Apple product I've had this kind of trouble with (I was using my Quadra 950, from 1992, as a router until a month ago, when I replaced it with something that could handle 802.11b, and I have stuff older than which still works fine). If anything of mine breaks again that I have to talk to any tech support people about it, I hope it's a product of Apple's again.
I probably sound like a complete fanboy whoring myself out for Apple, the Great and All-Powerful, but I've really been that impressed with the people working there, even if I've been kind of frustrated by the whole thing (thanks, Josh, Glenn, Greg, and everyone else I've dealt with there).
(As an added bonus, the model I had (the iBook with an 800MHz G3 from a year and a half ago) was out of stock, so they're replacing it with the current model iBook G4. So, for putting up with everything that went wrong with the old one, I get a new toy. Huzzah!)
I was able to force the issue by going public with my Apple experience
I eventually received a full replacement, apology and a new, speed-bumped unit that's been extremely-stable since.
See the various stages of repair below....
http://www.djedwhite.com/photo/photo.php?dir=Defec tive_Powerbook
d _Powerbook
P owerbook
http://www.djedwhite.com/photo/photo.php?dir=Fixe
http://www.djedwhite.com/photo/photo.php?dir=Old_
Edmund White
http://flickr.com/ewwhite
The Independent: Reverend Spooner Arrested in Friar Tuck Incident - ISIHAC, Historical Headlines