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Java Evangelist Leaves Sun After MS Settlement
aeoo writes "The Register says that Rich Green, the vice president of developer platforms and the major public voice for Java is 'quitting Sun in disgust' due to the recent settlement between Sun and Microsoft. The article hints that there may be more to follow. On the other hand, there is an article at eWeek with a different slant, saying that Rich Green tendered his resignation prior to the settlement. What impact, if any, will this have on open sourcing Java? It looks like Sun is still considering it."
Having a billion plus dollars of cash infusion should be even more of a reason for Java to take up more Open Source Development and support this nicely flowering community of adept programmers, testers and beneficiaries. However, a sneaky Dogbert spy might infiltrate the contract Sun signed, causing Sun to breach contract if they support Open Source (Microsoft likely didn't do this but it would not surprise me at all if they did, because I've never known Bill Gates to part with any money without getting something in return). Time will indeed tell if this settlement spells doom for Sun's human capitol, although if I'm right about Dogbert, then it likely will result in some really rich seedling startups being formed in wake of Sun's slow demise.
This could be a great thing for the open source community. Maybe we'll all get lucky and he'll join up with an open source 'java' project like Tomcat, JBoss or others.
When I first read about Microsoft paying off Sun, I wondered how long it would be before we started seeing Sun's support (not tech support necessarily) for Java begin to evaporate. Wow, it took all weekend. Can't say I'm suprised though. $1.6 billion will buy a lot of goodwill.
Sun perhaps focuses on .net and abandons J2EE, dooming it to qausi-obscurity on sourceforge?
I don't need no instructions to know how to rock!!!!
Claiming that Green had decided to leave Sun two months agao is not a direct contradiction to the claim that he left over the recently announced settlement with Microsoft. For all well know, the talks leading to that deal could have been going on for months, and Green certainly would have had inside access to how they were going.
The other article mentions that he had planned this long ago and was planning a new venture. Seems to me that it is very convenient for him to go out like this and take the good will he generates right over to his new company. Would you have ever heard about this guy leaving otherwise? Call me cynical but I very highly doubt that this guy left in disgust. He was very involved with the case and must have known for a long time what the outcome would be.
It might be mistaken as a description of Scheme's features.
--Bogus
And yet when I suggested in a Slashdot story that the cosying-up might affect the direction of Java, I got three responses saying that it would most likely not have any effect at all and that I was foolish for saying so. I thought it would be fairly obvious that Micro$oft is going to start applying pressure to those affiliated with Java to step off.
There were a lot of articles on various news sites saying that Sun and Microsoft had buried the hatchet, in order to concentrate on their common enemy: Linux.
I looked through the articles, but did not see any Sun quotes that were clearly hostile towards Linux. Although, that has been true all along, in public Sun always said Linux was a good thing, but in private Sun employees I know were not exactly Linux fans.
Were there any Sun statements made against Linux? Or were the journalists just connecting the dots?
Then, there are the Sun involvement in SCO issues. From the beginning, Sun has only touted their fully licensed Unix, they have not ever offered any support of the Linux position. Many people think they are one of the main parties behind the SCO lawsuit.
Well atleast there are still some good, old-fashioned, principled guys left in this desolate, dot-bombed, innovation deprived software landscape. I mean that's all that's going on in software for past 3-4 years - corporate restructuring i.e. the suits saving their own butts and their buddies' butts (consolidation and offshoring) and now Sun buries the hatchet. To me that seems so wasteful, of time, energy, resources, and good will.
$un has floundered one thing after another. Got onto Linux, dumped linux, then a wishy washy strategy, and then sided with SCO. What is $un trying to be - Golum?
Sun is a Hardware vendor first and a Software vendor second.
That said, it makes little sense for Sun to loose the Marketing benefit of Sun Java (as it gains no money, it's value to Sun is in the feel-good name recognition it's provides).
Sun sells Linux hardware along with Solaris hardware. Sun StarOffice and OpenOffice is funded by Sun to perpetuate good faith and hardware sales.
From a corporate point of view, Java is a loosing deal that can't be safely dropped (without gaining a lot of bad faith) and open-sourcing it could save them money, but would inevitably force a loss of Java market share while the community ramps-up to start supporting extensions to the current Java architecture (especially now, as .NET is totally in the clear). Further, community - open-source Java implimentations already exist (GCJ), but don't have the support of Sun's native implimentation.*
So what for Sun to do? Same as ever. Keep expanding the product, but don't put too much into it (as it's a money seive).
--
* GCJ and even the 'blackdown' ports of Java having no support means little, (as supported free beer is more usefull than unsupported freedom when it comes to reality) - but their failure to gain market share can be taken as an indicator of the possible stagnantation of an OpenSource Java.
Kinetic stupidity has a new brand leader: Allen Zadr.
There is alot in the JVM that does not "belong" to Sun, so it isn't thiers to open source. Most of the imaging and type model comes from Adobe for instance... I am sure that there is other stuff that isn't "thiers" as well.
What I've been finding interesting of late is not so much Java itself, but some of the (mostly apache.org-based) tools exploding from it like rocks from Krakatoa.
In particular, Keel seems to support some very high levels of abstraction.
In particular, the ant build tool, XDoclet, and a raft of XML extend Java in some genuinely interesting directions.
There is the usual evangelical rah-rah going on, but some 'there' to be found there, as well.
OK, I'm only test driving it for school; haven't been paid real cash money to implement it, yet it is provocative.
Get thee glass eyes, and, like a scurvy politician, seem to see things thou dost not.--King Lear
Napster-to-go says "Fill and refill your compatible MP3 player", which is a lie. It's not MP3. It's WMA with DRM.
To ammend then I'll simply add that .NET will be pushed hard in the next months - now that the settlement is made - and now is not the time to stagnate Java by pushing it into OSS limbo for the year it would take for the community to be able to support it.
Kinetic stupidity has a new brand leader: Allen Zadr.
The best quote from the article:
Let's keep things in perspective. Microsoft's unethical business practices should be put into context. Unlike the pharmaceutical cartel or arms manufacturers, Redmond doesn't overturn democracies or kill thousands of civilians; unlike News Corporation it doesn't debase social discourse or undermine language. Unlike Google, it doesn't pretend to present "all the world's knowledge", when most of the world's knowledge isn't even on the Internet. Microsoft simply makes some fairly mediocre software and charges a lot for it.
Well, that hits it right where it hurts! Microsoft can get away with crappy software because they don't *pretend* to be ultra-fast, ultra-reliable and *ultra-secure*. Its just software, whereas sun makes hardware and nuclear plant-ready software.
I have countless reasons to hate Microsoft but their JVM is not one of them
The Microsoft JVM was fully compatible with Sun's JDK 1.1. Sun merely disliked the MS implementation of java because it included extensions:
Mainly the ability to deal with COM objects easily and the availability of an MS specific GUI api called AFC while Sun was developing JFC/Swing.
Sun claimed such features could harm the portability of java. But extending a programming language is not a crime. For instance OSX include a Java binding to its Coca GUI api and GCJ can be used to compile java to native code. Sun could also decide that theses extensions are harming Java and sue Apple or GNU.
Developers are not dump. They can still use the core language/api if they wish to. But such extensions are often useful.
The real problem here is that a popular programming language is controlled by a company. Theses days, many programmers are afraid that Microsoft could control 3rd party implementation of their .NET platform. But Sun did the same when they sued Microsoft.
..uinless. perhaps.... remember the discussions when IBM sold off it's hard drive division to Hitachi? I remember thinking on it and postulating (on another forum) something along the lines of "I smell a rat, IBM wouldn't sell unless they had some new whizzbang storage method in their skunkworks". Well, a short time later they announced their brick storage and that other technique, dang forget the name now, but I was right. Now, this sun business the last coupla weeks is interesting to me, and is similar. Sun settling with microsoft and cross licensing *could be* Sun slipping it to MS and getting paid for it.. now WHATIF Sun got a new cross platform development tool/language under wraps that blows the doors off of java? That leaves MS with 1.6 billion in egg on their face, and they are free to keep develioping what might be in essence a quickly abandoned platform, along with trying to make .Net a still-viable option. MS would be sweating. They are sweating now in a lot of areas, that would be like giving them an extra wool blannky on a 90 degree day.
I am not saying this is fact, just a-wondering is all. On the surface, the settlement makes no (not much anyway) sense, so there needs to be a reason, and I just don't think Sun and MS turned into butt buddies overnight, too much long standing hard feelings and mistrust to overcome there. NO ONE trusts microsoft (anymore) to make a deal with them that will make them any money, at best, people make deals with microsoft just to mitigate their losses, ie, take the lesser of two evils when confronted with rock/hard place. Sun isn't stupid, I just can't help but think there's a single big clue that hasn't been made public yet.
The only reason I can think of to Sun to cozy up to MS is if they are scared out of their shorts that their hardware is going to go, too, and figure that the only way they can save it is to 100% give in to MS and become an almost full partnership, with them making the hardware and MS making the software that runs on it. A super Apple in other words.
maybe, don't know, the whole deal just seems fishy to me, and not worth the bantered about figures to either side. something else is up..
Two interesting tidbits:2 C00.asp
Sun was one of the few companies that bought a SCO license, and Scott McNealy darkly referred to Open Source as if they were pirates bent on destruction of Intellectual property here: http://www.eweek.com/article2/0%2C3959%2C1209873%
Second, one way to kill Linux as a viable desktop alternative would be to get rid of Star Office or at least make it seem like its support will be limited. Does Sun really care about desktops? Star Office on Linux is being used by many governments around the world as a bludgeon to beat up MS in contract negotiations (why would I pay $500/desktop and up for your software when I can use Star Office on Linux). Even when they don't intend to use Linux, it provides good leverage for getting massive discounts. If Sun can be convinced to get rid of Star Office, that very well could pay M$ back while seriously damaging Linux. I have used both Open Office and Star Office, and neither are MS killers, but Star Office is much more useful and polished.
Sun's sellout to Microsoft for $1.6 billion will look about the same as that great deal that the Indians got when they sold Manhattan. Microsoft is the only company that recognizes that the software is worth more than a few trinkets because it takes a lot of T-I-M-E to develop software and money cannot buy time. Most of Sun's software initiatives such as Java and Star Office (aka Open Office) will probably wither on the vine, now, for lack of nourishment, just as IBM let OS/2 wither after cutting a similar deal with Microsoft. It's amazing that Microsoft is able to buy off their competitors so cheaply...but then they have gotten a lot of experience doing it over the years.
I personally would rather see Java die because it really ISN'T a good technical solution to the problems it is being thrown at. (See here and here for a brief start on my reasoning.)
However, you have to realize that while the Java JVM spec may be "open" and already duplicated (see kaffe), the Java *libraries* belong solely to Sun. java.net.*, java.io.*, java.awt.*, etc., these are essential to building Java applications these days and they rely on an inordinate amount of C code called by Java. Sun owns all this code and will not relinquish enough "control" to allow *any* third-party equivalent to arise.
What I mean is: I write a GUI app in Java, using the "standards" set forth by Sun including the interfaces and classes from java.awt.*. When I try to run it under a JDK that does not have direct lineage from the original Sun JDK I get hundreds of "ClassNotFoundExceptions". And *every* JDK in use for business software has the Sun JDK as its parent.
It would be like trying to write a C program and finding stdio.h, math.h, unistd.h, types.h, etc. missing. You may have C syntax and C-style function calls, but you don't end up with a real C program because the standard C library (libc) is an integral part of the spec. The only real exception to this example is the kernel itself, because it lives at a layer below even libc.
Don't forget that linux is gaining acceptance in the corporate world , mostly because of the efforts of IBM , rather than the collective RTFM attitude of most kernel developers.
I gotta disagree with you here. Linux gained acceptance because it *works*, and thousands of front-line admins and programmers at those companies (like I used to be) pushed to management types to look at it. IBM has always pushed huge software "solutions" into the corporate world that are frankly crap; saying "this magic product X will solve all your problems!" is nothing new to them. It's not IBM's fault Linux has flourished, it's because Linux had already reached a critical point of stability before the first MBAs ever saw it.
Those RTFM-spouting developers *made* the wave; IBM is just riding along with it. And even then IBM is about three years late to the game: almost every major corporation is already using Linux for something.
Hardware is a commodity, at least you can get reasonable good hardware from many different vendors, from laptops to servers. And you have a broad choice of software, almost regardless of the hardware you choose.
Software is mostly commodity, too, at least standard software like web browsers or office packages. I think free/open source software is a good indicator for this.
So, what's next? IBM and Microsoft have very different strategies to head the future.
IBM's main focus are companies, have been and probably will ever be. (This is IMHO one of the main reasons, they failed to get OS/2 to mainstream, they have almost no experience with marketing mass products) So they concentrate on businesses, bundle service with their products: buy Tivoli or Notes and spend more money for service than for the software. As a nice side effect, you have your staff at your customer. Where else can you find out more about the needs and wishes of your customer?
Microsoft has lived very good by selling software licenses, especially Windows and Office. They want to have a monopoly on single part in an otherwise open industry, and sell/license this part to all other companies competing in this market. They do it with Windows, they do it with Office. That's pretty easy earned money. (It's even easier earned, if they sell it through an OEM, because that OEM is responsible to provide end customer support.)
A Sun manager once told me on the question, why Microsoft doesn't engage in service like IBM does, that service doesn't make as much profit as their license busieness does. They prefer to expand their business modell into other markets.
I don't know, how long they'll be able to keep this strategy working; but it has worked for servers, internet software, games and PDAs. So, right now it's still working, and their strategy to extent it into multimedia or content distribution looks quite promising. Wouldn't it be nice to earn a penny on every song sold? Or maybe even a little more?
Microsofts strategy seems a little bit more risky than IBM's, but it also promises much more profit. And if it fails sometime, there's still a full war chest to realign the company.
2 billion dollars over the next 10 years is not a big amount for a company like Sun. Undoubtedly they didnt sell out. I think it was a move that could not be averted. Sun is doing really badly and it simply cannot afford to spend money just to keep up the image of being a Microsoft hater. It has learnt its lesson from Big Blue. IBM forms alliances with whoever it can. Its operative word is profit. Sun was very profitable before the millenium and could afford to keep up the image of being able to take on Microsoft. Now, it just does not make economic sense to do stick to the image. They have simply decided to cut their losses and start focussing on making profits where ever they can find it. Its a time for Sun to lay low and really focus on how to turn the company around. They have done a lot of monkeying around with quick fix profit making schemes all of which have failed.
Moral of the story: when the shit hits the fan, everyone ducks.
The apparent facts:
1. Sun decided not to open-source Java, at least for the time being.
2. Shortly later, Microsoft paid Sun 2 billion dollars to settle a bunch of old lawsuits that were languishing in court anyway, and the two companies teamed up, agreeing to cross-license patents and share research info, work on mutually beneficial plans and so forth.
3. Sun isn't crazy about Linux because it's better than Solaris. Microsoft isn't crazy about Linux because it's better than Windows. Linux is making strong advances against BOTH operating systems, thereby costing both Sun and Microsoft a LOT of money. And, yes, I know Sun has made some moves towards offering Linux on Sun equipment, but I suspect McNealy prefers Solaris despite this.
4. Microsoft and Sun have both helped SCO in various ways over the past two years, both for their own reasons I imagine.
SPECULATION:
1. If Sun decides that they'll make more money partnering with Microsoft and pushing Solaris, then they'll consider stabbing Linux in the back. As we all know, they could fairly easily stop supporting Java on Linux. They could make it Windows-only if they wanted. Or they could sell it to Microsoft once and for all. Consider what this would do to corporate takeup of Linux.
2. If Sun decides to partner with Microsoft temporarily until the Linux threat is dealt with, and then go rogue and try and push Solaris instead of Windows, that would be just as bad.
3. Remember all that patent cross-licensing and the agreement to share research with Microsoft? I'm guessing this is going to be used against Linux shortly. Massive licensing fees would put a big dent in "free" whether as in beer or freedom.
4. Everyone focusing on Java for the past few years has had the amusing effect of distracting large numbers of programmers from working on alternative programming systems that might have been better than Java. Linux is now in a Java rut. What happens if -- whoops! -- Sun pulls the Java rug right out from under us? That would be worth 2 billion to Microsoft, wouldn't it?
POSSIBLE APPROACHES FOR OPEN-SOURCE PROGRAMMERS:
1. Back to C++. It does everything except applets, anyway (and you can do all of THAT with Shockwave and Flash).
2. Python, Perl and PHP (pick your favorite).
3. Everybody, start working on GCJ and CLASSPATH! Somebody start a beer and coffee fund...
4. Let's all do something different.
Did I miss any?
Farewell! It's been a fine buncha years!