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Reasonable Salary for Entry Level Programmers?
An anonymous reader asks: "I will be graduating from college in May with a degree in computer science. I have begun the job search and gone on a few interviews. So far I have gotten two job offers which I am thankful for, but the salary seems low. I am not saying that I am too good to pay my dues and work my way up, but I could make more waiting tables. It is somewhat distressing that I have spent 4 years of college and years before that developing my programming skills. I am not trying to get rich, but I was hoping that the high level of skill required would account for something(no offense intended to waiters). Can anyone give me any insight about what a reasonable starting salary would be, for an entry level software engineer?"
I was hoping that the high level of skill required would account for something
A college degree does not confer skill. Skill must be demonstrated before it can be rewarded.
.@.
I came out of school in 2000 (I heard the .com bubble go "pop" as I got my diploma), for 'bout 50k. Depends on your skillset and attitude.
Be aware that you'll do better (bosses who like you and your work give better raises) if, in addition to tech skills, you show critical thinking and responsibility.
"Faith: Belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks without knowledge, of things without parallel." - A.B.
Yeah, that's about right. If you are a shitty programmer you'll end up making less. I don't think getting a job right out of college for a "demeaning" $25k is something anyone can complain about (give or take for metro area).
Once you get out there and network, another job will come your way. I have a friend who graduated with honors from a big name electrical engineering college (Rice) and he's 10 months out of school and working for $30K and happy.
It's tough out there. The solice of course is that if you're making 55k a year you're going to be doing $55k a year worth of work. Do you really want to jump headlong into 80 hours a week, on call, etc?
It's not 1994 anymore, you have to work for your money, even in the computing business...
Cool! Amazing Toys.
How many people graduated with you? How many other schools graduated as many, or more people at the same time? How many programming jobs do you think exist? Granted, this number is growing, but still. As an electrical engineering major, I can tell that at least half the people that graduate aren't worth having in a company. They just don't retain knowledge and apply it well. Why should a company assume you're worth more money? You're going to have to prove yourself to them. For all they know, you're the guy like my lab partner, who did no design on a major project, built none of it, and wrote 4 of a final report when I asked him to write six. Of his four pages, I totally rewrote one, made him rewrite one, and had to correct all his others. One of the mechanical engineers that I work with has a resume that would impress people at NASA and JPL, but in reality, he knows very little. Considering the number of graduates who know very little these days, I think you should be happy for a job. Besides, you ought to take one based on what you'll be doing, not so much how much money you'll make. With a CS degree, those dreams of high salaries you had going into college faded while you were there. Work your way, and be happy with it.
1) Where are the offers, and more specifically what is the cost of living there? I would expect a job to pay around 1.5-2x as much in the Bay Area as in Tucson for the simle reason you'll need the extra money to have the same quality of life. Consider what it costs to get a house, go out to eat, etc where the job is. If it's cheap, don't expect to make as much. I mean in Tucson, you can get a 2000 square foot house for under $150k which works out to payments of under $1000/month. It's hard to impossible to get even a studio apartment in some cities for that price.
2) What will the workload be like? If this is a company that believes in supporting it's employee, a 40 hour work week, and low stress, that is a factor. Don't sell yourself short on quality of life, but realise that less work makes you less valuable and thus will pay less.
3) Benefits. Look at what the company offers you in other benefits, those all factor in too. If they pay your health insurance for you, that's something to factor in, it's not cheap. Same with other kinds of insurance. Make sure you are comparing the total amount you are compansated (as in how much they pay you and how much you'd have to pay for the benefits if they didn't) not just the amount you take home.
4) Vacation. What's their policy on that? If the company offers good amounts of off time, that's something that's nice. Also generally reduces your pay though.
5) Public or private? If you work a government job, it'll generally pay less than the private sector. The compensation is that most tend to have excellent benefits, plenty of vacation time, and little to no overtime.
So look at the area you'd be living in, what kind of buying power you'd have with your paycheck, and what they offer in additonal benefits that you'd need to purchase yourself if they didn't. Then decide if what they are offering you is reasonable.
Also consider what kind of learning experience it will be, what kind of industry connections it will give you, and what kind of advancement oppertunities you'll have. If a job pays less, but puts you in the position to advance quickly and to a high level, while learning valuable skills, it's probably worth it.
So don't sell yourself short, but don't get caught up in the dollar amount you take home.
while it seems like the dotcom craze is over, we are really still at the dawn of what the internet and personal computers can do... it will be decades before this tech has realized it's full potential and the arc of innovation wanes and computers/ internet become just another commodity like the cotton gin or the radio
therefore, within the span of your lifetime, there is much impact you can make on this world, personally, and of course, financially
so after you come home from your thankless soul-sucking underpaid 9-5 existence, don't forget to tinker with the very sparks of imagination which got you interested in computers in the first place
someone reading slashdot right now, either you, me, or someone else, will probably be making a contribution to mankind in the field of computer science which will forever alter humanity, and perhaps make that person fabulously rich... but that's an afterthought
your prime motivation should be happiness, not money
no six figure slary is worth self-hatred
don't give up on any of the things that got you interested in computers in the first place just because you can't seem to find your happiness in a cubicle
you will never be happy working for someone else, you will only be happy pursuing your own interests
so think of your job as something to keep your brain cells well-exercised, and something that keeps food in the refridgerator, and therefore you won't look to your salary as some end-all justification for your existence
your job will forever be little more than just a means to an ends, unless you yourself are deadset on making your life little more than what your employer decides you are worth, and that would be a sad day indeed
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
Assuming you are single, and just out of collge, and still willing to share an apartment to keep costs down, take any job offering $30k or more, AND is something you are interested in or could see a future in. In other words don't get hung up on salary alone, but consider what you want to do with your career and what you want to do. If you don't know exactly what you want to do with your skills, consider jobs that might offer a variety of opportunity. Remember, like any job, there will be pluses and minuses and you might have to reall look to see what the opportunities are.
As for the money, remember the dot com days are over, and paying your bills while getting your career going is not a bad way to start in the "real world".
They can suck you into the 80 hour week at any salary. Likewise, many $50k plus people are adept at avoiding the 80 hour work week. You only get 45 hours of work done in an 80 hour week anyway.
I really would be looking more at the company and projects than the salary. If the company is full of people making good money, then you will likely get good raises.
Employers look for progression in your salary. Going in low and getting a good raise in the first year can really jump start a resume. Leaving without a good raise makes you look bad.
So, if it looks like a company pays well, then going in low is a wise choice.
In short, as long as the salary offer isn't an obvious attempt to screw you (look at both your offers and also ask classmates with offers from other companies and see if they're within, say, a 10% margin), you should be OK. Dive in on your first job, learn everything you can, get started on that graduate degree. In two years take a look around and see if your salary isn't up to par. Go to your manager, make a case on all the fine work you've done, and see what they can do. If you get no action by the tiem you get the graduate degree, start shopping around.
"Prepare for the worst - hope for the best."
I've been out of school for 2 yrs, so some might disagree.....
Hold out for a job in an industry you want to be in. Pay is secondary unless you have kids and stuff - it's better to get your foot in the door somewhere that does interesting development on projects you want to work on.
If you take some job admin'ing windows boxes for the Arkansas Bureau of Indian Relations, it's easy to get pigeon-holed. Along comes a wifester, and suddenly its hard to uproot everything and take a risk with a cool startup or consulting firm.
My advice: don't worry about a few dollars, go out there and get the most interesting job you can, regardless of location. Go balls to the wall for a few years, learn your trade, and have a good time.
Interesting/hard jobs in technical fields generally pay good, but you will never be the best or make the best money unless you are excited and interested in getting out there and writing code.
"If you think you have things under control, you're not going fast enough." --Mario Andretti
Considering that professors can often get grad students to work for free, it looks like someone in that university is pulling strings and doing one of their friends a favor by hiring you (a HS student) for pay. Take full advantage of the opportunity.
As for the original poster talking about entry level programming jobs: "Whatever the market will bear is fair".
Jobs are like relationships. It's always easier to get a new job offer when you've already got an existing job -- even a crappy one.
If you're working at Foocorp, a hiring manager at Barcorp knows you must be worth something (or Foocorp wouldn't have hired you) - and he also knows that you must be interested in Barcorp (because you've already got a job at Foocorp, so you're interviewing for reasons that go beyond "I'm unemployed and need food").
Same thing applies in relationships -- ChickFoo obviously digs your stuff, and that makes your stuff more interesting to ChickBar. (No, I'm not gonna let myself write that as "BarChick" :)
Oh please. Unless you are Ivy League, nobody bumps your salary because you graduated from a certain college. IT Managers aren't THAT dumb anymore....quit fooling yourself.
"I threw up my hands in disgust and wondered if it had been such a good idea to have eaten my hands in the first place."
While the salary is the most important part of an employment package, there's a lot more to a good job that just it's salary.
Just my $0.02, after 25+ years as a programmer: salary falls well below a number of other considerations.
- Do you actively enjoy going to work each day?
- Does your job consistently strech your technical capabilities?
- Are your daily workmates more technically savvy than you, and happy to "mentor" you?
Answer "yes" to these questions, and salary doesn't matter: not only will you be happy, but you'll find that your salary increases quite quickly all by itself.
I'll be graduating in May as well and the range Ive seen is 45k to 55k
I took early retirement last year, and that's all I was making then, after 30 years. If I had it to do all over again, I'd be an electrician, or a machinist, or a welder. Anything but a goddamned software slave. It wasn't worth it.
You have a job and no more homework or papers for school.
If you can pay rent with 1/4-1/3 of your monthly salary, eat and have fun, then seize it.
You're not getting married. If it TRULY sucks, you can leave. If you can make it a year first, great.
After that you have a track record that you can survive at a place for a year. (it's important, really).
You have something on your resume.
You get to see what work is like in the real world and what you like and don't like about this place.
A friend's dad was a job counselor. He helped his son and I go through some college selection things when we were 17. The stuff he used at work which was kinda cool. Make a list of your previous jobs.
- write down 10 (or so) things you liked.
- write down 10 things you DIDN'T like
- Take that last list and find the opposite
Now, take the pluses and the opposite of minuses and choose 10 most important things and look around with that in mind.This can be challenging work; babes in the office; free pizza on fridays; working with project managers to learn how it all works, whatever.
"Micromanaging boss" might become "boss that lets me work on my own a bit"
I found my list from pre-college 10 years later. Where my college didn't match on that list was often where I was frustrated and annoyed. OTOH, there were things I just didn't know about and was wrong on. But it happens. And 12 of 15 things were just about right.
Learn to cook. Brown rice and beans will cost $2 and be 3 meals. Spices and garlic make it worth eating.
Learn to budget. You have $N. You can spend $F on food, $R on rent, $L on loan payback, $S on some savings. The rest is $Entertainment and fun.
Spend > $E, and you lose. Put it on Visa and you might as well surrender now.
You really don't need a new TV. You may need new clothes for work though. None of it is deductable.
Hell, burn the TV. It takes an IQ point away for every 100 hrs you watch.
Take time and save up and travel some. You're less encumbered and can have fun.
everything you do before you're 25 is overlooked in the job world
I spent 3 summers touring with bands building Rock and Roll stages. It was a blast; I made some cash; I didn't die (before I reach for that, did I clip in or not...). My crap was in storage and it had totally nothing to do with my "career." In the winter, I had some real jobs.
Think about this for a second. $45K is pre-tax. Take away social "security" tax, state tax, federal tax and with luck $30K remains. Now take away $12K for rent, that leaves 18K. Per month, that is $1500. Now take away food, clothes, medical bill, and maybe a car payment and gas, and there isn't a lot of wiggle room.
If your just starting your job search now, you're already way behind. The people who are making good money right out of school are the ones who worked full time during school. People wonder why they can't find a job after graduating college. You know what, there are thousands of people just like you with the same experience competing for a handful of jobs. You need to be different than the rest, and to be different that means skills and experience. If your a college freshman reading this, start looking for a job this summer, instead of drinking beer and partying. Get an internship or co-op and you'll be the one laughing at graduation time... (I speak from experience)
"entry level software engineer" is not the right title. try "entry level programmer". at the entry level, i doubt you would do any engineering of software. you will most likely be on a team of programmers with specific requirements for the programming project.
Why did I lurk so long before registering for a Slashdot account? I could have had a Slashdot ID of less than 100000.
How to invest(I'm not responsible for this advise, know your risks, etc.):
Option 1: Buy mutual funds; I'd stick to funds with low management overheads like spiders, and S&P 500 and Wilkshire 7000 tracking funds. These do better then 97% of managed funds anyway and the risk and thought are low, just put some portion of your income into the market every month. Possibly put some of this money in bonds as a way of reducing risk.
Option 2: Get a professional to manage your money. This involves learning a little bit and looking into the track record of the guys involved. There's also more cost involved. Typically I wouldn't expect them to be able to out perform the S&P but some do, and your portfolio is taylored to you.
Option 3: Learn to do it yourself. It's not as easy as above, but I wouldn't call it difficult; if that's what you want I'd start with Fisher(Common Stocks, Uncommon Profits) and Graham(The Intelligent Investor). Both of these were written with the non-professional in mind.
Good luck!
The policy of the United States is worse than bad---it is insane. -- Ludwig von Mises, Economic Policy(1959)
Not to turn this into a huge discussion on globalization, but the sad fact is that entry level programmers aren't just competing against the local competition in whatever city they choose, but they're also competing against high-level programmers in India and other lower-wage countries (Argentina among others) that will work for the same equivalent wage. While an entry level programmer would have to think about whether $20/hr is a decent wage, an experienced programmer in Argentina or India would LOVE to take that same job.
Not to be a complete buzzkill, but at $20/hr (hopefully w/ benefits), grab that opportunity because it's a good one. If for nothing else, it gets you in the industry during a tough period at a very livable wage. Yes, you could live in NYC on that wage (would probably need a roomate or to live in one of the lower cost areas...)
Sometime around the end of June, when my first performance review was due, a memo went out. The bonus plan was becoming an annual payout at the fiscal year-end, instead of quarterly, and it was going to be half cash, half stock options. Much grumbling, but in the economy of late 2001, having a job was better than not having one.
Then right after September 11 (October 2, in fact), a bunch of us got laid off. The bonus-payout issue was raised. We were told (this is priceless) that a memo had gone out the day before, but our team hadn't gotten it because our project manager had forgotten to distribute it to us. The alleged memo said that effective with the last quarter (the first one where the deferred-bonus plan was in effect), all bonus payout was to be annual, at the end of the fiscal year, but now it would be all stock options.
Essentially what they did was, in stages and retroactive to the previous two quarters, convert a quarterly cash bonus retroactively to an annual stock-option award. That didn't sit well with me, and with the "keeping my job" incentive removed, I decided to see what my options were.
To make a long story short, the Virginia Department of Labor & Industry agreed with my interpretation, that since no employee signed any paperwork acknowledging the change in the bonus plan, the original offer letter's terms should stand. That I know of I'm the only person who fought them on this, but they didn't make me sign a confidentiality agreement so I made sure my co-workers knew. By the last day of December 2001 I had in my hand a check for 10% of my salary (6 months' worth of bonus) minus my relocation expenses. I probably could have quibbled over the meaning of "leave" versus "involuntarily terminated without cause", but by then I needed the money rather badly.
Get all the terms of your employment up front, in writing, and keep that paperwork safe!
-- Old Man Kensey
How did this get modded up?
The administration costs for our healthcare runs at about 3%, which is a fraction of what it costs for an HMO. That runs about 25% since they spend a lot of money trying to deny that you're covered for anything.
I've worked for the past 8 months as the tech for a bank, having graduated nearly a year ago with a degree in Computer Science and every damn honor my college was allowed to bestow on me. I have written many many thousands of lines of code for 'fun', although I haven't kept track so it could just as well be millions. I started at $33k and got a raise to $36k after 6 months. With the hours I end up working, though, that averages out to about $12/hour.
But the sun is shining through - I am currently tendering more than one offer in the $45/hour range, and the contract is short enough that I can still get more education starting in the fall if the sun isn't still shining.
Moral of the story: Take what you can get. You need a paycheck so you can get situated and out of the college lifestyle. Eventually, a real opportunity will knock.
Programmers are the production line workers of the 21 Century. It's not programmers that are needed but software engineers and the two terms are not synonyms. Software engineers analyse the problem, create designs and document them, create models (e.g. UML), use patterns, define APIs, integrate existing software components and the like. Once you've done all that properly the rest is just a mechanical process that any reasonably competant individual should be able to undertake. You need some management skills, design skill and a good general knowledge of technologies and software engineering concepts.
The company I work for has outsourced some of it's programming requirement. This has indirectly sorted the software engineers from the programmers in house. For a typical project we now carry out requirements analysis, an iterative design approach resulting in a detailed model and documentation and often framework code. The then whole thing goes to our outsources so they can do the boring bit, filling in the blanks.
Oh don't be so melodramatic! How did this get modded up? From what I've experienced, the system is nothing like that.
My wife has just been diagnosed with a potentially fatal autoimmunue disease... no waiting around at all. Furthermore, I don't feel trapped in my job like I would in the US where I would be scared of losing my medical coverage for her.
I recall when I lived in the US of a co-worker whose husband developed Lou Gehrig's disease. The first thing she did was start looking for a job whose health care plan would accept patients with pre-existing conditions as she was scared our current employer would go under or would be bought and the health plan change - what kind of existence is that? That's just wrong.
My wife's grandmother needed a quadruple heart bypass, no waiting for that either. There have been several other members of the family who've needed medical attention or surgery and none of them have had any of the issues you speak of.
I'm sorry about your grandmother, but that's the exception and not the norm. I've heard similar stories from the US too. I've heard similar stories from other countries in the world. Now stop reading the Toronto Star and try to get your news from somewhere less sensational and more objective and realistic.
Man,
If you really think the grass is greener, then move. You'll soon find the same 8 hour waits in American emergency rooms (ask me, I know firsthand), the same shit on endoscopes, and the same wastes in terms of costs. Doctors on the US are business people. They make more money dispensing 6 doses of chemotherapy, than one dose of radionuclide therapy. Know how I know, I work in the health industry in Canada, and used to in the US. Canada's health care system isn't perfect by any means (ie, lack of PET imaging), but if you think the US is any better, you're extremely naive.
Oh yeah, and the tax situation in the US is not a whole lot better than in Canada either. You have to count more than just Federal or State taxes when you calculate the tax burden. There are so many more fees for other services in the US that people take for granted and don't include in their texes.
"Also, buy the most expensive house you can afford"
This is the most common advice I hear given to first time home buyers and it is among the worst financial advice to receive. DO NOT buy the most expensive house you can afford.
I know a lot of people who followed this advice and ended up house poor because their financial circumstances changed and yet they're still locked into an investment that's not liquid.
Most of these people found themselves screwed because they bought as big as house as they could afford and then suddenly realized that when they wanted to have children their house payment was holding them hostage: one of you want to stay home with the kids? sorry, got the mortage to pay.
Also due to the dip in the economy many of these people found themselves without a job. Whoops. Again, their high house payments meant they ability to respond financially (say by taking a lower paying job for a while) was compromised because they couldn't or didn't want to sell their house and at the same time they couldn't afford to take a job that wouldn't allow them to make payments!
When you're looking for a house location is more important than the current price or the square footage. Ideally you should be looking for a house in the lower range of a nice neighborhood; some place where you're not going to find a gas station or a fast food joint across from your back yard some morning.
As for the folks claiming the only advantage in having a house is the tax deduction, don't forget that:
1) You're not paying rent
2) Your house may appreciate in value as well.
Jared
I just wanted to say that if I had Mod Points, I'd mod that Underrated. But for a different reason.
:P. I am amazed by it as a science, enthralled with the study of complexity in general. And I am enormously satisfied by solving problems the *right* way; this is how I imagine most other programmers feel about their jobs, but I've met a few for whom this is very much not the case.
"Not to say at all that $20/hr would be bad, just by comparison. I'm actually quite happy with my wage."
Myself -- I'm making, quite literally, $10 per hour -- and coding at a very high level, database-to-business objects-to-presentation level, and am even occasionally (read: when I have the time) asked to write and create visual content for the end-user documentation. I only have a 2-year AS degree, from a small technical college. (I got it when I was 18, but it's still just an A.S.)
I'm surprisingly happy with this job, despite the fact that when I work long enough hours, my actual hourly wage has gotten as low as $7.50. I think that the reason for it is two-fold:
1) I live in an area with a fairly low cost of living, in semi-rural Minnesota. More importantly, I have a lot of friends and family in the area -- and it's not that easy of an area to find a job in!
2) Because I am such a good value, I am afforded a lot more freedom in the way that I do my job, and in how I get to solve problems. This is a must, particularly when you occasionally have to work with procedural programmers (who are your superiors) that still feel that OOP (or functional programming, yadda yadda -- no elitism) is not "real work".
And I should probably add to that list a third reason:
3) I love programming. I respect programming as a real engineering profession, not as something that you can just *do*. Even with visual development tools
When these sort of things work out in your favor, and you aren't tied down, and the work that you're doing is actually more satisfying the harder you work on it -- then as far as I'm concerned, you've got it made. Regardless of what you're making per hour.
Pasta: $0.50 per meal (3-3 meals out of a 1-pound bag)
B33F: $0.50 per meal (3-4 big helpings of sauce out of a $3.00 glob of ground beef)
Garlic, herbs, veggies, bread: $0.10 per meal - considering how little you need in a pile of good sauce and garlic bread) Wine: $0.50 per meal (again, a $2.00 bottle of red plonk to add zest to tomato sauce, or white plonk to add zest to bolognese)
For $2.00 per meal, you can eat pretty fucking well.
Don't have time to cook? Bullshit! If you add up the time it takes to get to the restaurant and wait for someone to prepare it for you, you're probably saving time, considering that you can make 4-5 jars (if you're clever about when/how/what/if you add the meat/wine, each with a different flavor) of sauce in one session, and freeze it for later.
These kinds of savings scale all the way up the ladder. Consider a steak dinner. $20.00 a pound for filet mignon. So you get a couple of 8-oz filets and pair it with $0.50 worth of veggies, potatoes, and onions ($0.33 per pound!) for onion soup and sauteed onions. That's a $100.00 meal for $15.00, and it took you about an hour to prepare it.
Want dessert? You know those wonderful chocolate balls that you pay $1.50 each for at Godiva's? Buy some $5.00/pound high-quality dark chocolate. Melt it down in a pot with some $2.00/250mL cream. Add a splash of cognac. 20 minutes later, pour into a big pan and chill it overnight. Tomorrow afternoon, chop it into cubes, and roll the cubes into balls. (Optional: If you have an SO, have fun licking each others' fingers :) Congratuations! You've (optionally: gotten laid, and) made $100+ worth of chocolate truffles for less than $10.00, and it's taken you about half an hour.
I eat about $1000/month worth of food every month. I pay about $150. Life is good.