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Clones Are Overwhelming TiVo
jfruhlinger writes "The first line from this CRN/Associated Press story says it all: 'Debra Baker tells people she has TiVo. But she really doesn't.' As cable companies offer their own DVR boxes to customers for no upfront cost and a lower monthly fee than the original, people are using TiVo as a verb but are frequently not using using the product or service itself in real life. The article notes that the cable company's DVRs don't have some of the archtypical TiVo features, such as the ability to guess what you'd like recorded based on your viewing habits."
All my clones own Tivos. That's seven subscribers when before, it'd only be one.
record only first runs.
as it is now, they record all showings.
I am the Alpha and the Omega-3
Where's OpenCable when we need it?
Because that's what's really locking TiVo out of the digital cable biz. They can't directly operate on a digital cable wire, and the companies such as Scientific Atlanta are not releasing their decoding specs so that TiVo can make a box compatible with cable systems that run their backend equpiment.
Analog CATV is standardized, cable channel 27 in one town is on the same frequencies as cable channel 27 in another. OpenCable will basically do the same for digital. It should be noted however that OpenCable is leaving decryption and conditional access for others to handle... they're just defining a slot in which the system provider's choice of smart card that that will handle that stuff goes into.
Slashdot has written before that this isn't quite the same as Open Source in the way that it's usually thought of here, this is a hardware spec that pretty much gives up a single-channel digital bitstream to the device's wishes once the access card lets it go.
In the future, this could lead to "digital cable ready" TVs and devices, including TiVo that won't need the assitance of a settop box. But, of course, the present digital cable system makers don't want to give up their cash cow. That's why the current digital cable device makers can eat TiVo's lunch right now...
Similar to saying "I had a burger and coke for lunch," when you really had a burger and Pepsi. TiVo is becomming part of American culture.
Steal This Sig
I do love my Tivo, but I turned off the personal viewing feature long ago when I realized it had a twisted personality. It kept recording porn and cartoons...
TiVo's got the name-brand recognition, which is good, but it seems like they need to make some marketing efforts pinpointing what differentiates them from their primary competitors.
And all our yesterdays have lighted fools The way to dusty death. --Will
I just got through building a really nice home media system with WiFi.
The centerpiece is a PC running SageTV [www.sage.tv]. It uses a hardware mpeg encoder to capture video from my digital cable box and save it on a 250 GB hard drive. Encoding at the "DVD Standard Play" quality uses about 3 GB per hour of video and the quality is definitely acceptable. Also stored on the monster hard drive is my entire CD collection ripped to very high bitrate MP3. The hardware media card also includes a built-in radio tuner. The machine has a DVD burner in it as well, and SageTV glues it all together.
Now, the really cool part of it is, I can access the mpeg video files and MP3s over my home network. With an mpeg video codec, I can use any of a variety of players to play my recorded television anywhere in my house on a laptop. SageTV also offers a separate piece of client software that allows you to remote-control the PVR from any networked computer and play any of its recorded media -- so, if I'm in the garage with my laptop, I can call up the current TV guide and select a program to record right there without having to directly interact with the media PC.
TiVo runs Linux and is hackable, but still uses a proprietary filesystem for video storage. Plus, the folks at TiVo don't want you accessing the video externally anyway...
Fun with Anagarams! LADS HOST, SHALT DOS. HAS DOLTS. AD SLOTHS, HATS SOLD. ASS HO, LTD.
One phone call to either TiVo customer service (or DirecTV's customer service if you own a "DirecTV DVR powered by TiVo" device) is all it takes for them to send your device a signal to stop uploading the viewer-habits data. True, that's opt-out rather than opt-in... but at least they're making it easy to get out.
Me... I kinda like the fact that it reports what I watch. I've always wanted to actually count in the ratings...
All it does is increase the likelihood that the shows you watch will get renewed so you don't have to go stand outside a building and cheer for some crappy show on UPN or the WB to get un-dumped.
I currently subscribe to the DVR service from Brighthouse here in Central Florida; which uses the Scientific Atlanta Explorer 8000. I have been blessed with the Passport software as opposed to the rather buggy SARA, and even though it may not have the advanced features TiVo has like being able to intuitively record programs (I don't really see the point anyway, I record what I want to watch) and searching for a show name by inputting the first few letters (currently I have to go through a whole list of shows in alphabetical orders and with 500 channels, it can get mighty long!) I love the box dearly and it's totally worth the extra $7 a month. However, it can be unstable at times, due to it's sensitivity with signal quality. If the cable company started offering TiVo itself for something like $15, I would definitely get it.
I can't help but wonder if that's the path TiVo themselves will have to take in order to survive. We'll see.
"Black holes are where God divided by zero." - Steve Wright
reaching for the Kleenex,.....err tissues. There's nothing worse than when someone takes your idea and Xerox.... err copies it.
"I need a Kleenex"
How many of you use the brand Kleenex?
"Man this headache is killer, gimmie a Aspirin"
or
"Aww do you got a boo-boo, let me get you a band-aid"
Are you really using Band-Aid brand bandages?
Your hair look like poop, Bob! - Wanker.
Tivo is doomed because they don't have access to the unencrypted but still encoded digital video stream. Because the cable television companies have this access they can make lighter weight Tivos that don't need to do a reencoding of the stream. This gives them an unfair advantage that spells the doom of tivo for that market segment. They can also mix the functionality into their already required encoder box such that few people will want to pick up an extra redundant tivo even if it does offer more features.
The one thing tivo does have is the best remote control of any DVR. It is just beautifully engineered.
Why? you ask? Because it dilutes the brand name. And building a respected well known brand name is very expensive and difficult. Companies are expected to take reasonable steps to protect their trademarked name. For example the Xerox corp has been fighting tooth and nail to keep the verk xerox from becoming synanomous with photocopy. This is exactly the reason why Federal Express changed their name to Fed Ex, because Fed Ex was becoming a generic verb that means send by express mail. If TiVo doesn't protect their name, then they may loose their right to their trademark. That would be a disaster to their buisness. Rethin
When it was the only PVR on the market, there was no reason to call a PVR anything other than a TiVo. TiVo now will have to fight an uphill battle to try to get people to associate the word TiVo only with TiVo-brand PVRs.
My only political goal is to see to it that no political party achieves its goals.
Actually, we were just talking about this today, and a co-worker of mine recounted an instance where an individual decided to give up his TiVo because it was too good at finding stuff he liked - he found he didn't have much of a life anymore besides catching up on all these cool TV shows he didn't know existed!
Troy, who finally ordered his TiVo this week.
I have a TiVo and a friend with a Scientific Atlanta DVR. I can tell you that the Scientific Atlantic user interface isn't any where as nice as the TiVo. I can do without TiVo surprising me with programs it decided I wanted to see, but it sure is nice to be able to do wish lists. The differences between the user interfaces on the SA and the TiVo seem to me like comparing a Mac to DOS 6.0.
Yeah, the subject looks dorky. But I'm a computer geek. I have an x86 box that's useless (Mac owner here) that I could simply turn into Myth or Freevo or whatnot. But you know what? It's not TiVo. They look nice, they work well, and yeah, they do things that TiVo doesn't. But... I can do all that with Linux anyway. TiVo is to television what Mac OS X is to the computer world.
And no, this isn't flame-bait, and I don't want to get into a philosophical argument about my choice of metaphor. But... Mac owners that are also TiVo owners that are also x86 owners will truly know exactly what I'm talking about.
--Jim (me)
Sure, the "burly guys tossing the network programmer out the window" ad from a few years ago was funny, but how about some ads that lay out what the TiVo can do, and more importantly, what the cablecos' TiVo-wannabes don't do?
They need a whole series of ads that directly address the cable companies in certain markets. Something like, "Think you've got a TiVo(TM)? Well if it came from your cable company, you don't..."
Satisfied customers' word of mouth is a great way to advertise, but it can't compare to the reach that the cable companies have, unless TiVo does something like hiring a network of their customers to work in Best Buy and Circuit City part time as evangelists-- who else would be better suited to explain exactly what it does?
~Philly
If you have DirecTV, call 800-347-3288 and opt-out. If you have any other TiVo, call 877-367-8486 and opt-out. I don't know why we're still having this discussion. Either the parent is ignorant or has an axe to grind. Parent - crying wolf about this hurts the fight against REAL invasions of privacy (PATRIOT Act, Operation TIPS, Total Information Awareness).
"I had a TIVO for a day, until I found out I could not record without paying TIVO $10/month."
Sorry, wrong. Tivo can be operated like a VCR without paying the monthly. (The series 1 units can, anyways.)
And I'm sorry but it sounds to me like you're a bit of an idiot to buy something with a basic understanding of how it works.
Be happy. Nothing else matters.
DirecTiVo's have access to the full digital stream. They record digital info direct to disk without conversion. Since satellite owners are what Tivo was intended, and cable DVR service sucks balls for most who have it, I suspect that TiVo will eventually be bought out by DirecTV. New disks are coming this year that will allow three separate data stream recordings at once.
Because "DVR" sucks.
We already have too many TLAs -- DVD, VCR, ATM, SUV. All because no one can come up with a decent name for a new class of objects, only too-verbose phrases. "Automatic Teller Machine" is clearly too much to say, so the lazy thing to do is acronymify it, and you get "aee tee em". T'would be better to come up with an easy, catchy, single-word, pronouncable term for it (as in some European countries -- "autobank" or "bankomat" do nicely).
But here we sit, saddled with "dee vee are". "Yuck. 'Teevoh'? Hey, neat!"
So TiVo it is.
"A great democracy must be progressive or it will soon cease to be a great democracy." --Theodore Roosevelt
"Such as selling your personal viewing habits to advertisers? I'm no tinfoil-hatter, but this is one of the main reasons I chose ReplayTV. I understand TiVo's data collection is aggregate, but the thought that someone keeps a record of everything I watch (or re-watch), and uses it for profit is a bit off-putting.
Kudos to the newcomers!"
Why do you care? TiVo hopes to use the information they can sell to increase their profitability and hopefully lower the subscription costs for their customers. How is that bad? Its not like they are going to tell advertisers and the government that "Joe Average" at 123 Average Way watches Cinemax (aka "Skinamax") every single evening. It is aggregate. And speaking as a TiVo enthusiast, I am happy they will be reporting viewing habits to advertisers. I want advertisers to know that they shouldn't advertise feminine hygene products during action programs and the like. I want to encourage advertisers to actually make decent commercials. And most importantly, I'm tired of 6,000 Nielsen homes dictating what is shown on television. There are over 1 million TiVo subscribers vs. 6,000 Nielsen homes. I want our numbers to count for something because I'm tired of seeing shows that I like (such as "Angel") getting cancelled. The other DVR/PVRs on the market, such as your ReplayTV (which has bankrupted two corporate owners and is now on its third and still has yet to get over 100,000 subscribers), do not have the power to save favorite television programs from cancellation. So in my book, TiVo's aggregate viewer data collection is a reason to sign up.
"Right now, somewhere in this world, Scott Baio is plowing a woman he doesn't love," - Peter Griffin, *Family Guy*
What's wrong with that?
If my cable company (or some satellite company) wants to bundle a DVR with the service, so what? If you don't want to use it you don't have to - go buy a Tivo or build yourself an HTPC or whatever floats your boat.
If my operating system company (or some really big software company) wants to bundle a Web Browser with the software, so what? If you don't want to use it you don't have to - go buy Netscape or code one for yourself or whatever flots your boat.
Uhm... wait a second.
Band-aid, Astroturf, Xerox, Kleenex, Coke/Cola, Saran Wrap, Jell-O, Kool-aid, Scotch tape, Wite-out, Cellophane, Boogie board, Popsicle, Styrofoam, Post-it note, Legos, Velcro, Thermos, Escalator, Listerine, Hi-Liter, Jeep, Vicks, Alka-Seltzer, Lycra, Spam, Cool Whip, Granola, Gatorade, Tylenol, Aspirin, Valium, Novocaine, Vaseline, Rolodex, Chapstick, Q-Tip, Pop Tart, Walkman, Frisbee, Hula Hoop, Ping Pong, Jacuzzi, Kitty Litter, Levi's, Play-Doh, Skivvies, BVDs, Jockey shorts, Teletype, Polaroid, Fiberglass, Plexiglass, Linoleum, Zipper
And now Tivo. Nothing new here. But it can be temporary too -- Nintendo almost became one in the early nineties but died out later for example.
What's so bad about being lazy? What if there was a war and nobody showed up?
The problem with a box provided by the cable operator is that its features are going to be tailored to meet the desires of the cable operator, not the end user. That's how we've ended up with crappy digital cable decoders that have program guides that devote more space to ads than programming, no s-video or component outputs, no reliable and standardized means of remote control, and slow/buggy software. The cable operator wants a zillion cheap boxes that integrate into their overall business strategy, which places little or no value on what any particular subscriber might want.
Mea navis aericumbens anguillis abundat
"I've been curious about that since I first got digital cable, which has recently been upgraded to Comcast's DVR. How do we know that the box isn't sending info back about what we watch?"
Comcast is more likely to use their DVR to spy on their subscribers to make sure people aren't "stealing" extra channels that they aren't signed up for. To my knowledge, Comcast is not offering viewer information to advertisers, although it would be an easy way for them to increase revenue or use it in negotiations when Viacom or Disney start demanding fee increases for channels that Joe Public doesn't care to watch yet is forced into the programming bundle.
Either way, Comcast's DVR does not offer the functionality that TiVo does. It is a shame that Comcast won't roll out actual set-top boxes with TiVo built in considering Comcast is a shareholder in TiVo. The same goes for Cox and Time Warner Cable. Yet none of them are deploying TiVo boxes. I think most of them believe that if they hold stock in TiVo, TiVo won't turn around and sue them over IP violations like TiVo did with Dish Network (Echostar) over the DishPlayer PVR.
However, Joe Public will have a remedy come July 2004 when FCC rules take effect that allows us all to buy our own digital set-top boxes instead of being at the mercy to rent whatever cable box is best to the cable company financials. That means we might actually see TiVo-branded digital cable set top boxes for sale at Best Buy.
The only area of concern I have for this digital jump is the lack of support for recording digital audio. I had an indepth conversation with a TiVo tech last week and he basically said the reason why existing TiVos do not offer SPDIF ports is that TiVo is afraid of being sued over DMCA violations because it would mean that the TiVo is making an exact copy of a digital audio signal from a program and archived on the customer's DVR. Perhaps they have their hands full fighting behind-the-scenes the "broadcast flag" requirements the FCC is trying to hoist on the whole industry while fighting the IP lawsuit against Echostar...
"Right now, somewhere in this world, Scott Baio is plowing a woman he doesn't love," - Peter Griffin, *Family Guy*
I always find it awkward telling people I have PVR. Usually it goes like this:
Them: "What do you think of Tivo?"
Me: "Tivo's are great, I love mine"
Me: "Well, actually I don't have an actual tivo, I built my own, its called SageTV, its pretty much the same as a real Tivo, but I can access my TV from any computer in the house, save stuff on DVD, no monthly fee, etc..."
Them: "you built a Tivo?"
Me: "Uh, well its a thing for your computer"
Them: "Oh..." (blank stare)
Me: "Tivo's kick ass!"
Them: =)
You can get what you want. The Toshiba DVD player with built-in TiVo and the Pioneer DVD recorder with built-in TiVo both come with TiVo Basic, which has no recurring service costs. TiVo Basic includes a reduced programming schedule (3 days I believe?) and only lets you set up recordings manually - either via timer or be selecting them from the program guide. This is *exactly* what you say that you want.
I don't care what you say, my cable DVR sucks, badly. I have the motorola 6208, and it's the worst piece of crap ever. Sure, I can timeshift HD and SD programming, but the interface and useability blows. I'm serious. This thing give motorola a bad name, and that's too bad b/c they didn't write the software for it (the cable co's outsource it).
I've had a Tivo for years. I'm not just a fanboy, I tried to get into my Cable co's pvr, but it's hard to like something that is that hard to use! The ff function barely works smoothly, there is not status bar that tells you where you are in a program, setting up a recording couldn't be any harder, and the guide is cluttered by stinking advertisements! etc etc etc.
I'm so happy that I bought a Tivo and the lifetime sub when I did. I just wish I could use the tivo to record my cable co's HD programming. I'd buy a cable card tivo in no time flat (ok, it would have to cost less that $450 bucks).
Mythtv runs on linux.
It is licensed under the GPL.
http://www.mythtv.org/
The interface makes Tivo look like a weak sister in most areas, and has FAR more capabilities.
On well tested hardware and using well tested distributions, it can be set up in less than an hour, including Dling the software and deps/updates. YMMV, severely on poor hardware.
(via KT333/400) There are numerous well written how-tos, and one of the better mailing lists you will ever see.
Sound setup under Linux is typically the headache, as you can imagine.
There is a Knoppix based CD version, knoppmyth, but R4 is bit dated. It CAN be installed and VERY carefully upgraded, as mythtv is available for Debian.
One good, well suported setup---NF2 MB, Athlon XP, OSS audio, GF4 MX400, and FC1. (There are folks using it all dists tho)
I personally found Mandrake Cooker to be just as easy, easier in fact as it is "current" to the point of bleeding continuously, as my "backend" is my "workstation", and that's my comfortable distro of choice. Again, YMMV.
My new frontend is an Xbox, and it works beautifully, excellent TV out, DVD remote works perfectly, fully mapped to run Mythtv properly.
It runs Debian, xbox-mythtv, a tweaked version of Xebian.
He could also dictate the direction of TiVo, optimizing them towards DirecTV support even more so than currently. HDTV makes no sense outside of Satellite, so I would expect Murdoct to have the first availible direct-digital integrated HDTV DVR.
Then suppose they add a digital out connector to a computer for archiving, which would work with ATI Video boards? Cable companies would become the low-end prole option overnight.
As an OT....I wouldn't want to be using my cable company's listings for a PVR. The show often do not match what is on and are very often generic(ie The Simpsons episode description is quite often "Matt Groening's subversive animated satire about Springfield's hapless first family"
I was talking to a friend of mine who has one of the brand X sattellite PVRs and almost every time I talk to him about it, he realizes that his PVR doesn't do everything (or pretty much anything) that my Tivo does. Such as allow him to search and record all shows by name, apparently. Must be a pretty shitty PVR he has...
Sure you could throw together a bunch of open source software and have a digital PVR, but you're paying the Tivo guys for the slick UI and the smooth user experience. Sure you could probably do as good a job as they could given a year or two of development time, but in that time you could have also made enough to buy the service for life AND purchased a share of the company.
So yes, I think the Tivo guys will have to stay on their toes if they want to stay alive, but competition is good after all. I don't see them going out of business anytime soon.
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
It's also worth mentioning that the guide info provided by TiVo is quite a bit more detailed than what you're likely to get for free. I have an upgraded TiVo (a Philips HDR112 with 200 GB of disk (it shipped with 14), 32 MB of RAM (it shipped with 16), and a TurboNet), and I've recently started fooling around with MythTV. While it's much easier to rip video from a MythTV system (export the video files with Samba), I've noticed that the program info it provides isn't nearly as comprehensive as what TiVo provides. TiVo provides a more thorough description of most programs. It also lists the major actors in a show, which is how you can tell it to record everything with your favorite actors (whoever those are) whenever it comes up. A wishlist entry for William Shatner, for instance, would dig up stuff like his Twilight Zone episode(s) and Incubus. (It'd also pull in Rescue 911 and T.J. Hooker...whether that's a Good Thing is an exercise for the reader.)
The TiVo interface is also a fair bit easier to get around. In fairness to MythTV, it's not been around nearly as long, yet it's reasonably useful. It'll get more refined as time moves along.
20 January 2017: the End of an Error.