NetBSD Trademark Application Completed

Daniel de Kok writes "The NetBSD Foundation is proud to announce that it has registered the ``NetBSD®'' trademark. The foundation would like to thank Jay Michaelson (Wasabi Systems) for filing the application and providing answers to the US Patent Office, and Carl Oppedahl (Oppedahl & Larson) for giving advice and keeping the Foundation informed about the process. An official policy on the use of the NetBSD® trademark is currently being drafted and will be made public soon."

Comments

trivial?

[Joceyln Parfitt]

the NetBSD 'core' must have a lot of money if they can spend thousands on little things like trademarks (especially ironical considering the BSD licence almost like public domain, you'd think these people wouldn't care about copyrights and trademarks, etc).

Looking at the application:

Filing Date: 2000-09-12

That must have cost a fortune in lawyer fees. But then, if this is what it takes to further improve their already great product (I run it on my IPAQ!), more power to them.

Re:trivial?

[heironymouscoward]

Actually the cost of a trademark registration is quite reasonable. You can do the discovery and filing for around $1000, possibly less if you do some of the paperwork yourself.

IANAL but I have a few trademarks.

Patents... OTOH cost 10x more to start with, and considerably more after that if you try to defend them.

So a registered trademark is a good investment for a small company that fears competition.

I don't see the immediate benefit to NetBSD, however.

Re:trivial?

[drinkypoo]

It's probably taken so long because they didn't want to spend a lot of money on lawyer fees. Cross the right palms with silver, and things happen amazingly quickly. Fail to do so, and they happen amazingly slowly.

Re:trivial?

[DAldredge]

Perhaps because both are issued, in the US, by the Patent and Trademark office? :->

Re:trivial?

[RazzleFrog]

Copyrights are issued by the Library of Congress no the USPTO. I suppose it would be the USPTCO if they did.

Re:trivial?

[dpille]

around $1000, possibly less if you do some of the paperwork yourself

But the orignal post is quite right- in this case it must have cost a comparative fortune. Looking at the prosecution history, you can see two office actions and an appeal. I'm not sure "DIY" is even in the ballpark for non-lawyer IP professionals (let alone the average guy) in such circumstances.

There's some additional prosecution history here if you're curious. Gotta say, the approach to get around the objections based on registrations for BSD and FREEBSD (see the 11/26/02 doc) is pretty interesting, and certainly emphasizes that getting a NETBSD registration required a fair amount of work/resources.

Re:trivial?

[TheRealMindChild]

Saves on having to hunt down and kill the jerk that forks NetBSD and calls it NetBSD. This would have saved a lot of hell with MySQL.

Re:trivial?

[beebware]

True, don't you just hate it when companies register trademarks - first Microsoft, now NetBSD - next you'll know Linux will become "evil". Oh, wait...

Re:trivial?

[Eraser_]

Is NetBSD a registered non- or not-for- profit organization? If so, who is to say they didn't get some of the work pro-bono as a tax write off? Offer many hours free in exchange for repayment of real out of pocket expenses and write the rest off as donation to a non-profit.

Organizations like these have many friends in many places. Who is to say a spouse or friend of a NetBSD developer/PR person didn't write some of these documents in their spare time? Friend of mine traded some internet access and good social engineering for a few hours of lawyer time to draw up some TOS and 1year contracts for the wireless internet he was going to sell to his neighbors.

Re:trivial?

[Halfbaked Plan]

Filing a Trademark is cheap and easy. Defending a Trademark means that each and every time that somebody violates your trademark you have to take legal action to defend it.

The first time you don't legally defend your trademark, you lose it.

So it's cheap to file, very expensive to maintain.

Re:trivial?

[bccomm]

Is NetBSD a registered non- or not-for- profit organization?

Only recently was it announced, but, yes, it is 501(c)(3)-compliant.

How long...

[Anonymous Coward]

...till Lindows trys to release LetBSD?

Re:How long...

[SteelX]

...till Lindows trys to release LetBSD?

Do you mean: ...till Lindows tlies to leelease LetBSD?

Re:How long...

[Geoffreyerffoeg]

Actually, since Lindows/Lindash/Linspire/Let's Follow in Firefox's Footsteps is a Windows-like environment that uses Linux, the NetBSD (R) equivalent will probably be more like BSDows or something.

Except that looks like "BSD Ow's", or multiple BSD-related injuries.

(Yes, an apostrophe there is correct)

Re:How long...

[JudeanPeople'sFront]

That's not a good one, they'd better leelease FleeBSD...

Re:How long...

[SteelX]

Glade wok. Next they'd better leelease DlagonflyBSD.

Wot? Includin' t' ® (R) symbol as well?

[Anonymous Coward]

Doesn't the ® (R) symbol signify that the text before is registered ... it sounds like they've registered "NetBSD®" as a trademark ... making it NetBSD®® hehehe

What is a typical cost?

[Anonymous Coward]

What would be considered a typical cost to trademark a name? USPTO fee? Does one really need a lawyer? If something trademarked here, what is the cost to trademark it worldwide? Does one need to go to each countries trademark office or can one file with the WTO (world Trade Office) equivalent and do it all in one place?

Re:What is a typical cost?

[saddino]

1) Typical cost is $350 from the USPTO if you apply for it yourself (it's really not that hard: copyright and trademark protection is straightforward, unlike the patent process), and extra if you go through an attorney. Note: you need to use the trademark to protect it (i.e. you can just apply for a trademark to "hold on to it"). In most cases that's a given, since you're applying for the trademark to protect a good or service you're selling.

2) Trademarks in the US protect your rights in the US only. There is no "do it all in one place" route either. IANAL, but my wife is. Some of her clients apply for trademark protection in every country they do business in (60+ registrations). If you're interested in international protection, then you basically have to use a lawyer.

Re:What is a typical cost?

[Carl Oppedahl]

See What does it cost to file a trademark registration application?

Re:What is a typical cost?

[Carl Oppedahl]

Saddino is right that there is no "do it all in one place" route for all countries. But on November 2, 2003, the US became part of a treaty called the Madrid Protocol which permits a single filing to extend to several dozen countries around the world. There is also something called a Community Trademark application which covers most of European Union in a single filing.

wait

[Hinkey]

"An official policy on the use of the NetBSD® trademark is currently being drafted and will be made public soon" how can you condem them before you even hear there policy on the use of the trademark?

Re:wait

[Kenja]

" how can you condem them before you even hear there policy on the use of the trademark?"

Its realy very easy, all it takes is a desire to hate somthing. Just like the Linux & Mac haters that have never used the platforms or the Windows haters that think its unchanged since the broken Windows 95 systems they last used.

Re:wait

[sporty]

Windows haters that think its unchanged since the broken Windows 95 systems they last used.

I'm sorry to be the bearer of bad nues but... ;)

Re:wait

[Lord Kano]

Its realy very easy, all it takes is a desire to hate somthing. Just like the Linux & Mac haters that have never used the platforms or the

I am what most people would call a Mac hater, and I have extensive experience with the platform.

I was a Mac user for 10 years. I know the platform inside and out. I just have become disenchanted.

My dislike comes from not a position of ignorance, but one of knowledge based dislike.

LK

Re:wait

[AftanGustur]

how can you condem them before you even hear there policy on the use of the trademark?

Did I miss something ?? Who was condemning them ?? What were you replying to ?

*BSD Anthem: Last Disk

[Anonymous Coward]

[to the tune of Last Kiss by pearl jam]

Oh where, oh where is my BSD?
I just loaded it yesterday.
It's gone to heaven, so I've got to be good,
So I can see the OS when I leave this world.

I'd started to load it in my roommate's Dell,
the hard drive was taking it pretty well.
During the load, it crashed the heads,
the distro was stalled, *BSD was dead.
I couldn't stop, so I yanked the cord.
I'll never forget, the sound , oh Lord--
the screamin' drives, the speaker's blast,
the painful scream that I-- heard last.

Oh where, oh where is my *BSD?
That load took it away from me.
It's gone to heaven, so I've got to be good,
So I can see *BSD when I leave this world.

When I woke up, the sparks were pourin down.
There were admins standin all around.
Some fragments of chips gotten in my eyes,
but somehow I found my *BSD that night.
I lifted the CD, the devil winked and said,
"Load me darlin just a little while."
I held it close, I kissed the label--our last kiss.
I found the love that i knew i had missed
well now it's gone, even I loaded it right
I lost my *BSD and the Dell-- that night.

Oh where, oh where is my *BSD?
I tried to load it yesterday.
It's gone to heaven so I've got to be good,
So I can see *BSD when I leave this world.

Re:*BSD Anthem: Last Disk

[drinkypoo]

Isn't that song a cover of something from the fifties? I believe I heard the original being played by some mexican dude at the flea market in santa cruz but he didn't speak enough english for us to communicate and for me to find out who did the original tune.

Re:*BSD Anthem: Last Disk

[American AC in Paris]

Cool--bands can get authorship credits simply by doing covers now!

Ever heard the song "Blue Suede Shoes" by American AC in Paris?

Re:*BSD Anthem: Last Disk

[xoran99]

Isn't that song a cover of something from the fifties? J. Frank Wilson and the Cavaliers. It was their only hit.

Re:*BSD Anthem: Last Disk

[drinkypoo]

Witness the power of slashdot. Amidst the complaints of netbsd'ers spending too much money on something supposedly irrelevant, and the typical BSD is dying trolls, someone actually managed to learn something :D

Re:*BSD Anthem: Last Disk

[mkro]

Also reminds me a bit of Satan gave me a taco by Beck, at least from the part of waking up. Never heard the Pearl Jam song, though.

Re:*BSD Anthem: Last Disk

[kin_korn_karn]

that's the funniest geek song I've seen on /.

Re:*BSD Anthem: Last Disk

[nacturation]

Wow, a +5 "BSD is dying" troll. Congratulations!

In other news...

[Ckwop]

Slashdot gets sued for trademark infringement..

hehe

Si.

Logo?

[KevinDumpsCore]

Yes, but do they have a logo to go with that trademark yet? (http://www.netbsd.org/Changes/#logo-contest-close d)

This seems more like a BFD, so what story...

[feloneous cat]

I mean, frankly, what does this buy them? Anything?

I'm more puzzled than angered.

Re:This seems more like a BFD, so what story...

[RazzleFrog]

It protects them from somebody going out and writing an entirely new Operating System and selling it under the name NetBSD.

Re:This seems more like a BFD, so what story...

[sir_cello]

> It protects them from somebody going out and writing an entirely new Operating System and selling it under the name NetBSD.

There are a number of benefits to registration: the team could prevent the use of NetBSD on _any_ distributions unless they authorise (e.g. such as a "NetBSD+custom distribution" would not be able to use the NetBSD mark).

It could be used with customs to prevent import of counterfeit "official" CD's, or even the use of NetBSD on unofficial release CD's.

For example, when a NetBSD release is generated, currently nothing stops anyone from building and releasing their own NetBSD distribution CD from the CVS tag. Now, the owners of the mark will be able to prevent this if they choose to.

Re:This seems more like a BFD, so what story...

[Enigma_Man]

Not to be a grammar weenie, but you might wanna run your sig through a grammar checker.

-Jesse

Re:This seems more like a BFD, so what story...

[Vegeta99]

with trademarks, they don't have a choice. they HAVE to.

Too Bad We All Use Linux

[osewa77]

And the name is owned by one man. Linus Torvalds.

Re:Too Bad We All Use Linux

[platipusrc]

I'm part of the group, and I don't run Linux...oh wait...does that mean that I'm ...damn



"Mozilla/5.0 (compatible; Konqueror/3.2; FreeBSD) (KHTML, like Gecko)"
I figured I should mention that before I got modded down as a Windows user!

Re:Final Straw?

[OrangeTide]

Linux is also trademarked

(excerpt from that site)
Examples of Use Requiring A License.
On the other hand, if you plan to market a product or offer a service to the public using a mark that identifies the LINUX based product under a name that you consider your product name, like "Super Dooper Linux" or "Real Time Linux Consultants" you are required to apply for and obtain the low cost one time royalty license described elsewhere on this web site. This is true whether you actually apply for a trademark for your product or service name, because you are using the mark in a trademark sense, and it is important that the public know that LINUX is the base mark owned by Linus, and that the derivative mark you have adopted is your particular version of Linux.

Beside our need to protect the Linux mark for all of us in the industry, this process allows us to prevent improper uses of the mark that might eventually result in someone obtaining a trademark with the word Linux in it that suggests that they are the sole source of Linux or the sole authority to certify some aspects of use or training concerning Linux. For this reason we have refused to license marks like "Linux University" or "The Linux Certification Board."
(end-excerpt)

It's pretty reasonable for NetBSD to want the same protection from dillution for it's valuable brandname. And it's hardly the first open source OS to get it's name trademarked.

And what about the new logo?

[Anthony Boyd]

I hope I'm still in the running. Anyone else enter? I sure wish I could see my competition.

Re:And what about the new logo?

[meekjt]

Bob the orca!

Re:And what about the new logo?

[hubertf]

We're still sorting the >400 submissions out. Sorry for the delay, we hope to get to the final state of the logo finding soon.

- Hubert

Huh?

[jabbadabbadoo]

They registered ``NetBSD®'' ???

Oh no, they should have registed ``NetBSD'' instead.

It is trivial!

[eman1961]

I have filed my own paperwork on a couple of trademarks, and the total cost is less than $500. If I remember correctly, the cost of the final filing is about $350, which goes to pay an attorney employed at the patent and trademark office. If you are careful, and understand what can be trademarked, and what cannot, it is really rather easy.

Acquiring such a trademark means that it is somewhat easier to enforce that others do not use the trademark in their own product names.

Re:It is trivial!

[jd]

$500 is hardly trivial, compared to the money they must be making. Nobody ever accused *BSD of being a money-spinner. It may be good, but it isn't there to make a profit.

Then, there's the risk-factor. What, really, is the risk of a competing *BSD distribution taking the name of "NetBSD"? Again, no insult intended, but it's not got the mindshare to be seriously at risk. It's not Rolls Royce, for example.

Finally, what could the money have been spent on, otherwise? $500 is a week's worth of documenting, or maybe even a student hand-out for re-writing the installer. Wouldn't those have been more valuable?

Nonetheless, it's done. Time enough to regret the decision later. Now, it's a matter of figuring out what it actually means in practice. Is this a device to prevent code forks and/or another split-off? Were there core members threatening to form a breakaway distribution of their own?

And if internal politics were the reason, why not settle the issues peacefully? Is hostility the only way things can get done anymore? I hope not.

Re:It is trivial!

[Anonymous Coward]

Then, there's the risk-factor. What, really, is the risk of a competing *BSD distribution taking the name of "NetBSD"?

Someone tried to steal the term "Linux" in 1994 or so, long before anyone heard of it or cared. You can bet it cost Torvolds a lot more money in lawyer fees to trademark a contested term than if he had registered first.

There's a lot of really important reasons to own a trademark. Without one, forgetting to renew a domain name could be a disaster. There's also hostile code forks, etc etc etc.

Look at FreeBSD -- it's trademarked, but the trademark is owned by a hostile company and not by FreeBSD. In theory, they could be required to change their name! The reputation cost would be a lot more than a thousand bucks.

Maybe you are a poor student and $1000 sound like a lot of money, but frankly if any of the NetBSD people have a real job, this isn't financially prohibitive.

Re:It is trivial!

[Beryllium Sphere(tm)]

Nolo Press has a good book about the process.

Re:It is trivial!

[jhunsake]

$500 is oh-so-trivial

Most people can make $500 in a day (eg painting a house). Many people can make $500 in a few hours. And there are still a lot of people that can make $500 in less than an hour. Sure, it may pay a student to do something, but that is hardly an accurate depiction of time-is-money.

Re:It is trivial!

[ipjohnson]

$500 a day doesn't include a little thing called taxes ... I mean seriously how many people do you know that take home 500 a day (and no I'm not including strippers)?

Re:It is trivial!

[jd]

I'm no poor student, and I've blown a few hundred dollars on an 18th century cookery book, because I felt like it.

There's a difference, though. The cookery book, I can use. Repeatedly. It also appreciates value with time, so given long enough I'll make the money back.

I don't see how NetBSD could ever reclaim the money spent, by merit of the name alone. Unlike antiques, NetBSD has no guarantee of increasing in value. Indeed, without something significantly special (eg: OpenBSD's promise of security out of the box), NetBSD isn't going to capture the imagination - or the pockets - of the masses.

Re:It is trivial!

[theTerribleRobbo]

Who would know any strippers?? They're *FEMALE* for crying out loud.

I take it you've never been to Oxford St in Sydney, eh?

Re:It is trivial!

[jhunsake]

You must live in one of those socialist countries. I just paid a guy $400 a couple weeks ago to do less than one day's painting on my house. I can pretty much assure you he's not going to report, considering I paid him in cash.

Also, I know quite a few lawyers. Enough said.

Re:It is trivial!

[jhunsake]

Then you're only cheating yourself. Shit you can make $10 hour flipping burgers at McDonald's (here in the Midwest they're desperate at many places). Gas is cheaper too. :)

Re:It is trivial!

[ipjohnson]

thats cool but on the whole for most people 500 take home a day is a large amount of money. If you figure in taxes (~40% for this tax bracket) that means you have to make over 800 dollars a day which for a yearly salary would be ~192,000 (4 weeks vacation). Now your talking about a very very small percentage of the population.

Everyone knows the patent office is...

[exp(pi*sqrt(163))]

..understaffed and underqualified. There's probably loads of prior art. I bet there are everything from cereals to tampons already called NetBSD. You mark my words!

New Logo Too?

[nurb432]

How is that process coming along? Now would be a good time for them to release it.

Debian NetBSD projects?

[molo]

I wonder if this is going to effect the Debian GNU/NetBSD and Debian GNU/KNetBSD porting projects. I'm curious to see their use policy.

-molo

Re:Debian NetBSD projects?

[Anonymous Coward]

See http://lists.debian.org/debian-bsd/2003/debian-bsd -200312/msg00098.html and the following discussion...

Re:Debian NetBSD projects?

[RAMMS EIN]

Dude...legalities are so complicated.

I think Debian GNU/NetBSD says it all - Debian is the distributor, and we have a GNU userland atop NetBSD (analogous to GNU/Linux). I do realize that significant parts of NetBSD would have been wiped out, but, hey, it's open source, right?

As for trademark infringement, I suppose the NetBSD foundation would have to defend its mark in order to keep the rights, but they could grant Debian permission to use the mark, right?

Alternatively, the Debian folks could invent a completely new name - I think that is preferable over polluting the name with extra characters, which, AFAIK, still infringes the NetBSD trademark anyway.

This Gives Me An Idea!

[Goo.cc]

I think that I am going to rush out and trademark "BSD Is Dying", that way I prevent usage of that term on troll /. posts! Patent office, here I come!

Nice Job...

[mykepredko]

Regardless who wrote it.

myke

Yep, see here

[RAMMS EIN]

new logo.

(note the date of that post)

no risk from a competing bsd, but....

[zogger]

...perhaps a big risk from other quarters with deep pockets who might think it cute to do so, and might do it through a daisy chian of proxies first to obfuscate who's behind it. Perhaps, pure speculation of course. I can think of a few places to whom 500 clams doesn't even qualify as pocket lint,but the idea of monkey wrenching in advance any ever potential future competitor might seem like making "good business sense", so maybe NetBSD being proactive before the fact of needing a trademark is a good thing and good idea.

Re:no risk from a competing bsd, but....

[jd]

Now, that's a good argument, and one I'll buy as the reason for NetBSD trademarking their name.

Patents BAD trademarks GOOD copyrights BAD

[turnstyle]

Is that about right?

Oh, freaking great...

[evilviper]

Isn't this nice... I can't wait for the NetBSD trademark certification process. Now anything based on NetBSD has to be called:

The NetBSD-like, Unix-Like, OS

Do they really expect us to remember the Ascii #s?

[bfg9000]

Damn®. Being Politically Correct®" and using all those Godawful Stupid Symbols® is F**king Irritating®.

What to do with the trademark?

[markhb]

Add it to the license!

3. All advertising materials mentioning features or use of this software must display the following acknowledgement: This product includes software developed and originally released under the NetBSD® trademark.

;-)

Re:Final Straw?

[OrangeTide]

This article claims it was announced by Linux International a long time ago.

Also you can find posts by Jon Hall on usenet archives about it too.

If you read the LWI site you'd see "Website maintained courtesy of the law firm of Terra Law L.L.P. and AtreNet. Copyright 2000 Linux Mark Institute" .. Obviously that Monterey address is for the maintainer of the website.

It is well known that Linus does not want to be involved in the trademark issues of Linux.

Kernel.org is for source code, not for legal information.

I guess...

[Audacious]

Hellboy should be careful how he trademarks himself. ;-)

Re:REASON WHY BSD IS DEAD

[Game Genie]

Great idea. Everybody should use the same operating system. It is only natural that the entire OS market be dominated by one product. Why didn't I think of that?

Sincerly, Bill Gates

-