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Criticizing Sun's Java Desktop System
An anonymous reader writes "Uh-oh. PJ is not a happy camper. 'Sun has made its choice and opted for The Way Things Used To Be,' she declares in a Linux Viewpoint at LinuxWorld. 'It's a new world, and Sun is not in it,' she declares. Her gripe is with the Java Desktop System, which she argues is grossly cavalier with the GPL and doesn't properly acknowledge its roots. Her main objection: 'You really could get the CD and run it without every knowing it had anything GNU/Linuxy in it or that the GPL provides you with guaranteed freedoms that Sun would like you not to know you have.' Feisty read, as ever, from Groklaw's founder and editor. That Jonesian coinage 'GNU/Linuxy' is worth the read alone!"
I've never understood why the Open Source community is so quick to praise Sun, and pretend like Java it's an Open/Free technology... it's not. Is it a good, elegant language? Yes. Is it Open? No. Downloadable source code does not make Open software-- the key is in the licensing. IBM gets Open Source a lot more than Sun does, but doesn't get nearly as much credit.
I totally agree with the notion that the Java Desktop (which IS basically a Linux distro) doesn't sufficiently acknowledge its Linux roots. I also think that their licensing of the Java Desktop is WAY too restrictive and closed to fit within the constraints imposed by the GNU-licensed technologies that are part of it. I just don't understand why people are surprised. Why would you expect them to do anything differently than they have in the past? They make pretty good stuff... but to pretend like they are an Open Source advocate is a mistake.
Of course, with that said, Sun has an army of lawyers... I'm sure they are not technically violating the GNU. They know better.
--- JRJ
jrjBlog
If they have no loyality to their own employees, what makes you think they will have any loyality to you?
Please tell me where in the GPL does it state that you have to acknowledge its roots or pay its proper respects.
As long as it complies, it's fine. Why does everything have to bow down and act like the GPL is all holy?
This is another example how how un-free the GPL philosphy is, and why BSD licensing is the best way to go.
she argues is grossly cavalier with the GPL and doesn't properly acknowledge its roots.
The GPL doesn't say "Thou shalt display in bright big banners the license of this software". Yeesh. Why not look for real license violations instead of bitching about this?
"'You really could get the CD and run it without every knowing it had anything GNU/Linuxy in it or that the GPL provides you with guaranteed freedoms that Sun would like you not to know you have.' "
Yeah, why should they know, does it really matter, no. Sun can put it in there if they want. People companies are using linux for what it's worth. Why do some think that if someone is using linux they must spread the virtures of it and be a sales person for it. Also not having mention fo GNU, or GPL doesn't change what it is. In the end it's the software that matters. If you base how good something is on the if it's GPL or not your pretty much out of it.
Does Intel need to show in their end product what brand chairs the engineers at intel sit in? Does GM need to put stickers all over there cars saying what brand steel was used for the fenders?
This is another case of OSS people saying, "I gave my stuff away for free... now it's not fair." To this I say, sorry kids. You gave it away for free. You're not entitled to money or acknowledgement of any kind. Sure, that's great if somebody gives you a pat on the head and says, "Now that's a good little coder. Go back to work and build me something good. I have to re-upholster my jet." But you're not entitled to it, and expecting as such is ridiculous. As long as Sun does what the "license" says, they don't have to acknowledge squat.
'You really could get the CD and run it without every knowing it had anything GNU/Linuxy in it or that the GPL provides you with guaranteed freedoms that Sun would like you not to know you have.'
I'm just too old for all of this misguided zealotry. Sun and Java are one of the (many) reasons Linux based systems are making such tremendous inroads into corporate-land.
And lest we all forget, winning corporates means winning mind-share. Winning mindshare means linux based systems become more of a de facto standad everywhere.
I quite understand why sun wish to leverage Java and Linux - it's a magic combination. I can't understand why the author of the article wishes to leverage this tired, old zealotry.
In any case, just like he did with XEmacs and everything else that uses his software in accordance to his license, I'm sure RMS will start calling it "GNU/Java Desktop" whenever he can.
If this woman wants to see some touchy-feely good akcnowledgements from a corporation she (and everyone else) is in for a big disappointment.
This is where the rubber meets the road, and you can't have it both ways. As long as your license is not being violated, suck it up or stop releasing software under it. It's that simple.
If so, then don't complain.
The GPL is about Free software and the "software freedoms" defined by the FSF. It is remarkably well-defined, even more well-defined than some closed-source EULAs. It doesn't say anything about advocacy or trademarks (yes, believe it or not, it doesn't say "GNU/Linux" ANYWHERE).
It doesn't say "in order to use this software you must share RMS' political beliefs" or "you must love and cherish Free software" or "you must go above and beyond the terms of the license even if it doesn't make any business sense" or "no profits allowed". It doesn't specify what point type the words "contains Free software" should be printed in, in fact it doesn't have any such requirement at all. Yes, I'm sure RMS would love it if you did all that, but he is wise enough not to put that in the legal text.
One of the great things about the GPL is that it doesn't require any of this stuff. You can ignore it UNLESS you are distributing copies. And once distributing copies, you have some pretty clear rules to follow. You can love the GPL without being a Free software fanatic.
I think it's a great world where you can buy software in a box with commercial support, yet still enjoy the basic rights of viewing the source and making copies for all your machines or friends. It seems to me that in such a world, companies wouldn't go out of their way to advertise the GNU/Linuxy-ness of it, would they?
Just follow the terms of the GPL. Beyond that, do whatever is in your own best interests.
It's good to know the roots of things, but why does the average user care about the GPL? The JDS was designed as competition against Microsoft to get corporations to switch from Windows.
Why would an employee care that they are using open source software?
Do you know the roots of your car? Who founded the company? If the answer is yes, you like cars and that's why you know it...same reason why you would know about the GPL. If the answer is no, then I make my point.
So, let me get this straight..
-Xfree86 is evil because they have a license that forces distributors to acknowledge their work.
-Java Desktop is evil because they don't acknowledge the work they use.
*confused*
Sun = Saruman
Microsoft = Sauron
Someone should point out to Sun before they get into bed with Microsoft: "There is only one Lord of the Ring, only one who can bend it to his will. And he does not share power"
"Music is everybody's possession. It's only publishers who think that people own it." - John Lennon.
You do not understand the meaning of branding. Using Linux as a brand represents much more that calling it Java Desktop System (which is a stupid name, Java where?!)
I'm just trying to figure out if Sun did anything wrong here. Yeah they don't give much credit to the Linux/GPL roots of what they are doing, but who cares? As long as they follow the letter of the GPL law, then if they want to be dicks about it, that's their choice. It's up to their customers to decide if that choice is a good one.
If Sun can create something that's valuable to customers, then good for them. I rather doubt that people who are forsaking Microsoft are going to want to get into another oppressive licensing scheme.
This sig has been temporarily disconnected or is no longer in service
"Ok, its got this 'gnu' label on the box.. does that effect my ability to play games and chat?"
"If not, then so what"... as they rip open the box.
How many 'traditional' distributions go to great lengths to explain what you have is 'free'....
if they aren't violating anything, who cares?
---- Booth was a patriot ----
Do you know the difference between gratis and free (as in freedom)? Apparently not.
PJ is not a programmer, lawyer, or analyst, she is a paralegal. I don't see why her comments are newsworthy to begin with. It seems PJ just looks for things to be high and mighty about sometimes. A lot of noob friendly distros attempt to hide the fact you're using linux. So what? Lindows renames a lot of programs to generic names; such as renaming Mozilla to "Web Browser" and things of that nature. How many people actually know their linksys router is a linux based product. Or that their DVR runs linux. Complaining about something like that becomes complaining just for the sake of being a zealot.
I sense a lot of bitter BSD developers thinking they've caught a Linux advocate in an instance of blatant hypocracy. HA-HA! We had that advertising clause, but you pushy GPL people kept nagging us over that clause until we finally gave in, but now you're bitching about the same thing!!!
THWACK!!!From the GPL, Section 1
Notice that the GPL requires you to display the license agreement, not the names of the developers. The GPL requires that you notify the users and developers who obtain a copy of this code that they have certain freedoms and certain obligations. If Sun is hiding the GPL they may be in violation of Section 1.
For those who are saying that anyone who licenses their work under the GPL and "gives it away" deserves to have their work distributed absent the appropriate copyright notice, grow up. The work is not "given away", it is licensed; placing a work in the public domain is "giving it away" since the author(s) retain no control whatsoever over the work. A rudimentary understanding of copyright law would clue you in. PJ may be a bit zealous in her attack on Sun, but in all likelihood she knows the GPL and copyright law a hell of a lot better than you (or I) do.
PJ's complaint: not about advertising, but about licensing. For those who still can't understand the difference, there are places where you can get help.
-jdm
Solid article. Simply by highlighting some of what they say PJ has allowed the essence of their argument to come through, and it sounds pretty repulsive to me. Hilariously inept too, if they seriously think either the mass market or the hacker market is going to follow Sun they've got to be downright insane. And to expect a happy smiling future with microsoft is delusional.
I don't think PJ's point is whether or not they have broken the legal wording of the GPL, but that they have certainly missed the intent. And that as a result they'll fit in neither market, not supported by the free software people and not real competition to windows. Exactly the position Caldera ended up in.
some big examples being Java and Open Office.
Sun is also now among the largest Linux success stories,
selling a million new Linux installations to China,
and even more amazingly to consumers at Wal-Mart.
Does it matter if the CD says "GNU" or "Linux inside"
to the Chinese, or Wal-Martese, or end user?
Likely not. As long as Sun honors the GPL--
and Sun does seem to be honoring the GPL--
then how about looking at the positive side?
More Linux installations will lead to better
succes for all of us. I want to see easy installs,
good video drivers, plug-and-play printers, and more.
Sun's success will help us get this, so cheers to them.
This Pamela Jones really pushed my buttons with this article. Does anyone have any photos of her, I want to wank.
That does it!
I'm going to take a break from writing Java software using Sun's JDK, and boot up OpenOffice, and I'm going to write a letter to Sun, saying they never contribute anything! I'm going to save the document via NFS to my department file server, and get everyone to send their own copy of it to Sun! I'm so mad, I have half a mind to shutdown my x86 machine that runs Solaris!
Those greedy bastards! They never give anything to the community! WE DESERVE FREE HAND-OUTS!
Read her article. That is _not_ her main objection. She points out several very legitimate concerns. Listing that as her main objection is like deliberately feeding trolls...
Personally, I think the notion of Sun's Java Desktop to be entirely underwhelming. Almost pointless in fact.
Actually, if it were a post on Slashdot, I'd moderate it redundant, if it weren't at -1 redundant already.
From what I've read at the Sun site, you get something based on SuSe with a hacked up Gnome front end and Java tied into as many things they could think of. Nothing reveloutionary... seems mainly to be an attempt to get StarOffice in front of people who might not otherwise even know it exists.... in fact, isn't this part of the walmart deal? So I guess that would explain it. Sun Java Desktop is for the walmart shopper and not the Linux/OSS initiate.
So in that light, it makes perfect sense to try to put the wizard behind the curtain and let the user deal with the smoke and mirrors, The average Walmart user will generally be too clueless to know what it really is other than that it's not windows.
When looked at in that perspective, it actually makes sense to hide the underpinnings as much as possible, lest the curious and ignorant do something catastrophic since the more advanced users would be able to figure it out anyway.
Personally, if you want a unix-like system with a great desktop UI and productivity/development software, go with Apple if you can afford it. Linux on the desktop is still a few years off, AFAIAC.
The vastly overrated parent and numerous other comments on this story miss the point completely.
The gripe is not about lack of acknowledgment, it's about Sun claiming to be supporting the open source community, while simultaneously refusing to do anything for said community. They claim that because JDE uses FOSS, they are somehow contributing to FOSS. However, their obfuscation efforts kill that argument, since it does not even increase the popularity/visibility of FOSS, let alone contribute any code.
AEIOU: open-source anonymous internet currency
I don't expect Red Hat to push their own semi-open programming language and libraries as the real target for writing applications on RHEL, then, in the future, swap out the free Linuxy bits for an expensive, proprietary operating system.
I can't extend Sun the same goodwill.
how to invest, a novice's guide
And now the Sun "Java" Desktop, which presumably comes with Java built in, but does that mean you can double-click on a .jar file and your app starts up? No. You have to write a shell script, or add an icon with a command like "java -classpath foo.jar ..." to get it to work.
Sun, what are you thinking?
Maybe expecting Sun to move from the world of big servers, where expecting users to write a shell script is perfectly acceptable, to the world of desktops, where users should be able to do everything just by clicking in an obvious place and without having to understand the difference between an ELF file and a JAR, is too much to ask.
An authentic Java desktop would be, in my opinion, one in which all the work gets done in Java. That means a Java office suite, a Java window manager, a Java file explorer. This is completely doable, and Java is a fantastic environment for doing those things (I know, you will flame me saying Java sucks, Java is slow, etc, sorry, that isn't true anymore). I would love to see such a desktop environment, and it would have fantastic security and portability advantages. A real Java-based OS is the only thing that has a real chance of competing with Linux, I believe (ok, I will get majorly flamed for that, but it's true).
I think that if Sun is serious about this, the way forward is:
Ok, that's enough ranting, sure to stir up many heated flames about how much Java sucks, and Scott hasn't called me anytime recently to ask for business advice, so I'll leave off here.
-------Create a WAP server
What about the Windows zealots. (cue flame throwers)
Ask 8 slackers a question, get 10 awnsers (a citation, but I can't remember from who)
What people seem to keep missing about the GPL is that it isn't just "free" - that is a minor point of the GPL. The greater point is that it is "Free" - as in FREEDOM, for both the user and the creator to ensure that the work stays available for future generations, regardless of the hardware. Of great importance to this stance is the availability of GPL or GPL-compatible development toolsets, like gcc or perl. Sure, you can write and GPL VC++ source code - but what is the point when the compiler itself isn't Free? What happens when (not if, someday it will happen) Microsoft ceases to exist as a company? What happens if the assets (VC++, etc) are not transferred to a party who will continue to develop them? Where does that get you in regards to your GPL'd VC++ source code?
The fact is, you are hosed (or the future is hosed) - with the GPL and GPL'd tools, you can have solace in the fact that the source for all will survive.
This is the true point of the GPL...
Reason is the Path to God - Anon
You mean the way Linux doesn't acknowledge that it has primarily lifted the rc*.d startup methodology from Sun? Or the fact that before Linux came about, the vast majority of the Free Software Foundation's software (and lots of other free/OS Software) was primarily developed on SunOS and Solaris?
Come back when you have a real complaint.
7 November 2006: The day Americans realized corruption and incompetence weren't addressing 11 September 2001
...the GPL does not require distributors and integrators to staple the license to users' foreheads. Just a thought. Yea, it is kind of dishonest, and if they don't include all the original docs they should be punished and probably even banned from using GPL'd software for a while, seeing as Sun is basically just a burden on all of us: stale platform or just a rehash of what you can get anywhere else for free or less, and the easy-to-program-in-but-not-well-implemented Java.
I am feeling fat and sassy
Can someone explain the joke to me?
1) never use this sentence anywhere in the real world(tm), especially at parties.
2) the explanation: everything annoyes RMS nowadays. in case your business is to print numbers on rice bags and you use linux for that purpose, don't expect just a comment, expect an essay from RMS if one of your rice bags topples down.
beer as in "free beer"
I'm a fan, but what unites RMS with Bill Gates is a lack of compassion for an opposing viewpoint.
Even in church, I get a little shaky when people start trotting personal interpretations of Absolute Truth. Especially when it's me. You just gotta behave humbly about this stuff. I'm serious.
Martin Luther King probably would have irritated fewer people if he was "humbler", but I'm glad he wasn't.
The difference between hardware and software is that it costs nothing to copy or modify software, yet 90-100% of your government, charities, individuals are currently paying per-seat licenses for copies which they are prohibited from modifying? (or sharing with friends)
Seriously, Stallman (and probably Eben Moglen) is a man before his time - or maybe just in time.
I don't think slashdotters even know what funny is anymore. They just think whatever got modded as +5 Funny must be funny. This joke may have been worth a chuckle the first time, but timing is important in humor, and it isn't repeatable. But people still think it should be funny, because it was modded as funny every time in the past.
A slashdotter who didn't build his own computer is like a Jedi who didn't build his own lightsaber.
I agree. The ``Stallman asks the OS be prefixed "GNU/", so he must want every word to prefixed with "GNU/"'' joke bugs me. It was dumb 5 years ago, and it's dumb now. I was kinda embarassed when I saw I had been modded up. (did my modder get it or not? I'll never know)
Please help publicise swpat.org - the software patents wiki
i'm tired of these stupid arguments "What they do care about is why their computer won't play that music, display that web site properly, let them do online banking with their financial software, just use that modem or other hardware, etc" thats just crap, just because your average schmoe won't care doesn't mean nobody should. your average schmoe is just that - a schmoe without a clue, just cattle feeding the corps.
If you mod me down, I will become more powerful than you can imagine....
Sun: 35000 employees
Ximian: 70 employees
Sun: has done a couple of usability studies, and contributed StarOffice (then a lousy office suite) four years ago.
Ximian: mono, evolution, GNOME bounties, IRC discussions, Project Utopia, and countless patches to and bug reports to any and every GNOME project.
Same kind of situation applies to Red Hat, which Sun actually has the gall to insult.
Face it: Sun was a thorn in Microsoft's backside so it was kind of seen as a good guy. But now I see no reason for any self-respecting developer to like Sun. At least Microsoft has the honesty to declare a straightforward stance with respect to open-source software. Sun tries to treat the open-source community as some unsuspecting supplier of free goods.
If only Sun were more like Ximian....
RIP Sun Microsystems. Killed by GNU/Linux and Microsoft, of all combinations....
To be fair, PJ isn't really a geek. She's that rarest of creatures: a non-geek who gets it. So even though she may not wear black and big boots (or she may; I have no idea), we adopt her as one of our own.
And I will hug him and pet him and I will call him "George".
sub f{($f)=@_;print"$f(q{$f});";}f(q{sub f{($f)=@_;print"$f(q{$f});";}f});
I was present at a JDS show here in europe. And I had a chat with some of their sales representatives.
:
Their sales guy are in a real channel conflict, they can't chat on their new JDS without at least saying once solaris ! They see JDS as a short term answer, before having their customer "upgrading" their JDS on Linux to a JDS on solaris. That's the strategy ! That's why they do not market the words GNU, Linux or GPL.
The other issue is the Java brand ! The slide show (staroffice on jds hopefully !) represents layers of software. from bottom to top, you have
hardware : either sparc, intel, or amd
os : either solaris or linux
a full length layer : java
a full length layer : gnome
But in the show room, nearly everybody knew that the demo of JDS has nearly nothing to do with Java ! just a little demo of their java player ( which is ugly ). Once again they "über market" the java brand ! Java has nearly disappeared from the internet as an applet technology ! Even if java has a hudge market share in the enterprise, I know several case, where the IT department face big problems, due to unmanaged deploiement of complex J2EE applications (usines à gaz in french) (I'm not flaming java here, the problem is "unmanaged" not java) . So the Java brand is not that good, and the good reference with respect to the Java brand are shifting from Sun to IBM. For instance, nearly every business developing stuff in Java are now using eclipse. The sales guy of Sun are still marketing NetBeans, I had to give him the reference of Eclipse.
Finally, my experience with respect to this roadshow and the chat with sales rep, is that they are frightened. JDS is a kind of cloud of smoke that tries to hide businesses migrating their oracle on solaris to oracle on a redhat cluster.
Sun seems to be playing a bit fast and loose with the GPL. When Lindows/Linspire did similiar things a year or so ago, people called them on it. Now PJ is doing the same.
Sure, SUN does some nice things for FOSS. I am grateful for OOo. They have done some despicable things as well, like paying SCO, but there are other things too. Now SUN has gotten paid off by MS. Let's see here, the last couple of times a FOSS friendly company got a bail out from MS, they dropped FOSS like a hot potatoe. Remember Corel Linux (Now Xandros and Linspire)? Remember Corel WP for Linux? Remember AOL and Netscape/Mozilla? AOL dropped Netscape and cut loose Mozilla. See a pattern? I predict in a years time that OOo will be spun off and Star Office will be swept under the carpet. Within five years SUN will be in the same position as SCO was at the beginning of 2003. We'll see if they try the same Lawsuit craziness.
Just a Tuna in the Sea of Life