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What Happens To Your Data When You Die?
dacarr writes "Your data - that is, the personal web pages and projects you have worked on to make the 'net a better place - are presumably password protected. But sooner or later the time will come when you take that last breath, and with you goes your passwords, but not your data. It's still there for your benefactors to deal with. And while many famous people who are no longer with us (e.g., Douglas Adams or Chuck Jones) have a staff for this, well, many of us don't. As such, have you planned for the hereafter, and if so, how?"
When I was in college a friend from the rugby team killed himself. I noticed days later that his student computer account was still open and emails had been received after his death. It gave a strange feeling to "finger" his account (which was how we found out about people in the old pre-web days) and have it return status information about him almost as if he was alive. I guess I can't really describe how it felt, almost like in some way some part of his life was still going on even though he was no longer around. I wrote to the system administrators and asked them to close his account down, which they did.
Not that it's relevent to the question at hand, but I never could understand what would cause someone to take their own life. Of course, logically I understand what causes it - complete and utter despair - but emotionally, I guess that I have never (thankfully) felt down enough to empathize with someone who commits suicide. It seems like such a waste. The summer before this he and I had decided to try to get into good shape for the upcoming rugby season, and we pushed each other at the gym and during runs and sprints. After he killed himself, I just had to wonder, what is the point of working so hard to get into good shape and then just ending your life?
Personal anectodes aside, I don't really see much point to this Ask Slashdot question (which is usually the case as Ask Slashdot is the lamest part of Slashdot by far). Your digital files will be treated the same way as your paper files after you die, and people have been dealing with the question of how to ensure that their personal effects are handled in the way that they would want to for thousands of years now. My advice to anyone reading this would I guess be to keep encrypted anything that you don't want anyone to see after you are gone, and for anything else, don't worry about it.
...still has all his journals and so on online. Perhaps much to the consternation of the people who despise him.
Finding God in a Dog
Ximian's Ettore Perazzoli died last year but his site and blog are still up:
http://perazzoli.org/blog.php
Your data should be treated like what your mom said about underwear. She always said you better have a clean set just in case you get hit by a bus and have to go to the hospital; you better have a clean pair. Just like underwear being clean, you better not have anything you don't want her to see - at least encrypt the good stuff or even use those crazy alternate data streams but don't leave it for everyone to find (especially anyone from RIA because you know they dig you up to get you into court).
I'm probably rehashing, but in my bank saftey deposit box I have a notebook with all of my passwords and what do to with all of my electronic stuff, like who to notify and what to do with my data as well as the stuff in my safe.
Bill Gates took my pants, and I thank him for it.
I have a copy of the current server layout, (well, almost current) and ALL of the pertinent passwords WRITTEN DOWN, and kept in a safe. (Right next to the backup drives) My friend who covers for me when I'm on vacation is well known to my co-workers, and boss.
So... if I kick the bucket, there will be a way for everyone else to pick up the pieces, continute business and move on with life.
Now at home, it's a sticky wicket... I currently don't have anything up on our web site, so that's not a big deal. My wife gets to decide what to do... and I need to talk with her about this issue.
For me, the big question then is what becomes of my 80,000+ photos? I've got some good ones, that I even managed to sell. I'd hate for them to just get pitched. (Thus returning to the main question)
Odds are, if she wanted to, she could back all of my stuff onto a new spiffy $200 drive (200Gb now, and twice as much 15 months from now). I'm probably about to do something like this to save my late father-in-law's data.
Gruesome topic, but it's good to plan ahead.
--Mike--
I'm Immortal, so far
MyLastEmail offers a service somewhat similar to this.
Here's what you do. First get a cellphone, a must these days. Next, make sure your pc is always connected to the net. Next write a piece of software. This piece of software will erase absolutely all of your data completely and irreperably. Or at least anything you don't want getting out. You can also write it to send data to certain people/places. In fact, you can write it to do anything you want with your data. Just set up a thing where you contact your computer directly or via cellphone to prevent it from doing its stuff. In the event of your death your data goes to where it should. You could even have it IM/E-mail friends about your death and put up a website about your life and such.
/. on saturday!!!!
Heck, if you are really good you can write the program to simulate your daily digital life. In effect making it so people who only know you on the net think you are alive. He died on thursday? I IMed him on friday and he posted to
Oh, just so you know, I'm actually dead and this is a program I wrote that is posting to slashdot. ph33r!!!!
The GeekNights podcast is going strong. Listen!
I've left standing orders for any data left on my computer to be destroyed upon my death.
Multiple paper copies of important legal and financial information are stored in secure locations.
I've had to do this for a friend of mine that died a few years ago. We kept in contact, and sometimes I would help him out with server issues, so luckily I had the root password to his server. After his passing, I took over the job of transfering his domains to my control, informing email contacts of his passing as emails came in, and took over maintenance of the server to keep his memory alive.
If you have family and friends that care, the data will stay alive. If you don't, then it will probably fade away and be forgotten.
I had a roommate in college die. Me and the other roommates felt it our duty to 'censor' his random stuff in the dorm room that his parents. We found porn, fireworks, airline-sized booze and 2 joints. I think the memory we provided (lack thereof, more precisely) was worth the moral dilemma of 'intrusion'.
My porn erase buddy is my wife. She knows all my passwords, and will be responsible for all my data after I'm dead (hopefully nowhere in the near future, as I am only 20). But she knows where all my porn is (hell, she downloaded half of it) and I'm sure if I died she would send it to her computer and delete it off mine :P.
Reading this thread, particularly posts about the Dead Mans Switch software and others bring back memories for me.
My housemate, Cip, passed away a few months ago suddenly due to a rare blood condition. I had to clean all "unsuitable" materials from his laptop before his family could have it, but his personal emails and other things - well, they never really occured to me.
Perhaps the strangest thing is seeing old emails to/from him, forum posts by him, and the weirdest thing of all is still possessing "replays" of Strategy games we both played in - I can still see how he played.
Such an interesting topic...
I have this script which will pretend to be me if I do not pass it a secret value once per month. It will cause all sorts of trouble, including emailing old friends revealing messages from the ether.
Actually, this leads to a more practical idea of creating an AI to make sure that your wishes be carried out. Your AI would be financed by a trust and would be legally protected by your last will and testament. The will would state that the AI should be maintained as long as technically possible, perhaps employing programmers to keep it running should no longer run on current systems.
Who knows that use one would put their post-mortem AI to. Perhaps I should leave my old friends alone and program my AI to randomly send money to wacky startups!
- JML
I had an exGF who'd keep ringing my answering machine, listening to my messages, then hanging up.
She'd do this 4 or 5 times a day. When she was really depressed she'd do it for or five times an hour.
I can understand how important it is when your loved one is dead, but when you are still alive its fucking freaky.
Norman Cook's Ode to Sl
i have a username and password for my windows server that is only in my will which is sealed until my death, it is a logon for a terminal server. after loggin into the server it prompt the user with a series of questions, which could be answered by a close friend or relative, and a few passphrases which are also in the will.
if they answer all the questions correctly it sends an e-mail to their account with a list of all my usernames and passwords.
there are accounts for all my family members. all they have to do to update the list of passes is send an e-mail to a special account with the username and password on two seperate lines and it adds it to their database.
i wrote this program after my uncle died, he was a network admin at a local public college, and no one knew his passwords for his home network, needless to say he filed his taxes online and the family was left with a slight problem becuase no one else knew any of his passwords.
Fire safes are rated to keep the tempature during a a "standard" house fire, under about 300-400 degrees F. However, CD-ROM's are no good after about 150 or so if I remember correctly.
It's a fallicy that a firesafe will save electronic media. I've seen a number of people make that mistake in the "safe my emergency documents" plans. Even worse, the CD-ROM is likely to melt and ruin the paper documents at those temperatures. I'm not sure what will happen, if you want to see, put it all in your oven, turn the temperature up to 300 degrees, let it stay in there for about 10-30 minutes after it gets up to temperature (do this with documents you don't care about, and possibly this could ruin the firerating of the safe, I'm not sure if they are designed to go thru multiple fires). That's like the status you'll get your stuff back in after the fire department lets you back into your house.
My advice, go to a local bank, get a safety deposit box. Put your stuff in there, they only cost about $25/year. In the end, your stuff will be safe, when you die, the executor shows up with the key and a death certificate and your stuff is given to them. The only thing to be cautious of, is that I've been told that vaults can act like big magnets and screw up magnetic media. However, I've never had a chance to test that, and I've never read it from a source I deem "authoratative" to actually trust it.
Kirby
But I think a "geek" would realize that a fire safe might protect paper - which burns at a relatively high temp - but might not protect CDs which can melt and warp at a much lower temp. I doubt the fire safe would do much good if the house were to burn down completely, as the fire would probably last long enough to heat the inside of the safe to a very high temp.
For various reasons, I happen to know a lot about beads -- the jewelry type. And over the years, I've gotten to know many of the "big" names in what is a fascinating, if admittedly somewhat small, subculture.
Whether you were talking about 90,000 year old beads from Africa or ancient Sumarian seal beads, one of the great resources available to us bead collectors was Dr. Peter Francis, Jr. and his website -- The Beadsite.
Now Peter was a somewhat odd character, even in a world populated by odd characters, and people argue all the time about many of his theories -- some of which, I much admit, seem a bit unlikely. But many years ago he was kind to a young kid interested in beads, so he's always had a special place in my heart. And so over the years we've kept in sporadic touch mostly via his web site and the occasional conference where we'd run into each other.
Long story short - he unexpectedly passed away (on a bead collecting trip of course!), and no one quite knew what to do with his site. Still, it is full of detailed information about beads that is available nowhere else in the world. Rather than take it down and allow that information to be lost, his website remains up - as he left it - to serve as an online repository of bead information, as well as a place to solicit donations for causes that he cared about.
I can only imagine that for someone who devoted his life to study and research, this is as fitting a tribute as anything. I would hope that when my time comes, people think my electronic "voice" is worth preserving....
Yes, you read that right. I expect my friends to hack into my computer should I reach an untimely demise, and I would do the same for them.
Allow me to explain. I know a lot of people online, some of whom none of my RL friends/family are aware of. I expect my friends to be aware of this, and to break into my computer (I dunno, rewrite the root password hash or something) to get at my AIM buddy list and email address book to make sure everyone hears about what happened to me. I also expect them to do appropriate things with my various (mostly useless) data. There are a very tiny few things I wish to die with me, and those are encrypted.
I hope my friends realize I'd want them to do this for me, and I'd definitely do it for them. It's not like I'd go in there snooping and spying and stuff, I'd be very sensitive to their privacy... but some things need to be done.
Facts vague to protect the innocent (and dead):
A small company with a large E-business element had a guy who was the chief IT guru, a greybeard who did pretty much everything. He died.
Well, they didn't outsource PKI, they ran a Root CA. The Root CA was created and promptly taken offline. To the guy's house. Actually, the whole server wasn't taken - just the hard drive. The house was a pigpen, and that's being nice. They didn't know if he had stuck the drive in a safety deposit box, nothing.
To make an ugly story short, they pulled all the certs they used, and re-issued new ones, updated the CRL list to all their business partners, asked them to delete the imported cert. PITA.
The irony was, they didn't need to be doing PKI. They just had a few SSL web servers. Shoulda just bought em.
is the title of an article by Penn Jillette (of Penn and Teller fame).
:-P
Whether or not you want your laptop cremated depends on your personal data, but planning ahead is definitely recommended.
--
But then I recalled last summer when my father had a heart attack and, due to a string of complications was going to have more than usual risky surgery. If all went well, then it would be considered a minor surgery, but if not... Sunday evening before the Monday morning surgery my family gathered with my alert yet sober dad and began to have "the talk." Eventually he began to tell us the financial arrangements he had made for our step mother and finally he told us his passwords and password methodology. Something about disclosing the initimate, closely held passwords made me realize he might really not make it.
After a few somber minutes my brother broke the silence and said that, strangely enough, he had developed a similar way of creating and remembering passwords as had my dad. I, wanting to try to keep things serious relunctantly gave out my methodology, too, which was coincidentally similar to both my dad and my brother's way. The laughter not only broke the tension, it strengthened our bond.
Everything turned out well; we are quite thankful.
I wonder if Dad changed his...never mind...
-- @rjamestaylor on Ello
I recently recovered 2 HDs and a CD rom (still in the drive with a melted front face plate, read i had to chisel off the plate to get access to it.) This was a 3 alarm fire here in town. Fire raged on hottest where the computer was for over 3 hours. While I tend to agree with you that storing in a safety deposit box is a better thing to do you would be amazed what you can recover out of a fire.
You are your brain.
Your brain is information.
The degree of information retrieval from a frozen brain is dependent upon the sophistication of the information retrieval technology. Same as retrieving information from a shattered hard drive. It can be done, but you need some good equipment.
Cryonics DOES preserve information, but is it enough for revival?
Well, how much information is preserved depends not so much on the cryopreserative technology used today, but instead on how sophisticated is the information retrieval technology of the future.
But "the future" when it comes to reviving a frozen cryo, is NOT set. If the information retrieval technology at year N is not sufficient to revive, then wait K years.
So, I hope you see that the odds are quite possibly good that there will exist some year N + m*K years from today in which the information retrieval technology is sufficiently sophisticated.
So, in retrospect, destroying information LONGTERM is actually difficult.
For more information on Information Theoretic Death, see Ralph Merkle here and here and here.
eat shiat and bark at the moon
Remember Joel Klecker? (espy) - the Debian developer?
http://www.espy.org/
IIRC, his parents are keeping his webserver & stuff online for as long as they can.
No, seriously, this is an interesting problem to me. It can be generalized to "When I become incapacitated, how do I set certain pre-planned events in motion?" Maybe I die and I want my porn buddy to clean up. Maybe I get really sick (coma) and I want bills to be paid. Maybe I get amnesia while on a secret mission and I want my ex-CIA buddy to find me (and bring me a suitcase full of spy-toys, natch). Maybe I die and want my enemies smited from beyond the grave.
The traditional method for this situation is a will (including living wills). But they do not cover enough situations, take too long to activate, require certain legal events to have occurred (death certificate, etc.) and are "public" ("...and to my brother I leave my DVDs. Now, a message for my ex-CIA buddy: SMITE!"). The mylastemail.com service mentioned elsewhere suffers from these faults. I want a system that I can secretly maintain that has flexible targets. Maybe it will give access to a safety deposit box to a trusted friend (I have a safety deposit box fetish, just ask my friends). Maybe it will forward info on an enemy's shady business deals to the government. It has to be fast, too. Ideally it will detect my demise and set things in motion well before my death/illness becomes public knowledge.
I could ramble on for a while (I have spent an unhealthy amount of time thinking about this). But I'll stop (for now). Any thoughts? Implementations? Cool things that you would like to see done after you die?
Serve Gonk.
This link might be useful, its Eric S. Raymond's "continuity page".
Ideally, I'd like to have a method for cleaning up certain things. There are probably files I wouldn't want others to see, in addition to files I *do* want them to see, but only after my death. Might be interesting to write a script that they would be told to execute, that would clean stuff up and print out my will. Of course, I'd have to put in protections to keep it from being run before my death....
I did some work on this a while back, dealing with splitting up passwords among N people such that any M people could recover the password (MN, of course). That way they all have to agree I'm dead, which prevents cheating.
... for this to be relevant.
Here's a hypothetical situation -- you keep all your finances (check register, bank balances, etc) in Quicken/M$FT Money/et al, as well as policy numbers, loan payment schedules, yada yada yada.
Your home directory is encrypted (via something like Mac OS X's FileVault) when stored, and decrypted only upon a successful login.
You're in a car wreck and are comatose for 6 months.
During that time, your car is repo'ed, your home is put up for sale due to lack of property tax payments (I think there are probably things to protect one from the mortgagor, but not from your friendly local gummint) -- you get the idea.
It's a good idea to have someone you trust (Fox Mulder notwithstanding) know how to get in and manage things in your absence.
If you're fortunate enough to have TWO people you trust (or almost trust), you might devise some sort of digital equivalent (this IS Slashdot, right?) of the old "2 halves of a dollar bill" key used in the movies. It would seem like a variant of the RSA scheme would work nicely. Maybe a large number that is the product of two (or as many trusted folk as you have) large primes could be the key to your digital castle...
Otherwise, recovering from a coma could be one of the most unpleasant surprises you'll ever have.
I had a friend who worked for a gov't agency. We went on vacation for about 2 weeks once and every morning at 9am he would send an e-mail from his cell phone, wait a few minutes for a confirmation and then continue his day. After a few days of this I asked him what the hell was going on. He informed me that if he didn't log-in to his computer daily by noon, it would auto-wipe a few gigs of encrypted data and inform his supervisors that he was either dead or captured. Now I'm not sure if it was his paranoia or if he really was doing something -that- important (he would never say anything about it), but I've taken up the same idea, although to a lesser extent. If I don't check my e-mail at least once every two weeks, I have some scripts set up that will e-mail someone my passwords, delete some info off my computer and encrypt a lot of data with a 512bit key so that I -can- get the data back if I happen to not be dead :-)
One of the key things my psychologist pointed out to me when I was beating depression was the idea of altering your brain chemistry. If you think a certain way, you can change the nature of your thoughts patterns. With depression you are constantly thinking negative thoughts. The negativity breeds more negativity and, as the parent said, you don't "just snap out of it".
g nitive.htm
What helped me a lot was to recongize certain negative thought patterns as "cognitive distortions". Once you recognize it, you can work at changing it - retraining your brain. Or, translated into Geek: "You must unlearn what you have learned."
This link describes the concept of cognitive distortions: http://depression.about.com/cs/psychotherapy/a/co
Magnatune: Quality (DRM-free) MP3/FLAC/
I intend to have finished my personality simulation, which I presume will take the necessary steps to protect itself.
I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
I had to work on a computer of a person that had died a few monthes ago. When I got online, ICQ opened and connected. It felt a little bit creepy, and I wondered what people who had him on their list thought!
but when you get to that point, there's the issue of wether you even *want* to change things anymore. I'd say I'm depressed (medically speaking, although I've not been diagnosed by anyone) and just getting my ass out of bed is very hard to do each day.
I can look at my life and say yeh, I'm not happy, and there's lots of things that could change to make it better. Problem is that I've already been in that better place - shortly before it all turned to shit and I landed up here. What's to stop it happening again? Nothing. I've gotten through the worst of it - the out-of-control phase and the suicidal phase - and now I just don't give a shit. Being depressed is actually a choice now, because the alternative of getting better and later hitting that rock bottom again just isn't worth the risk to me. If it happens again, I know I'll top myself because it's a less painful option than 3 or 4 years of being fucked up.
BTW, one of the catch-22s is that "cognitive distortions" work both ways. Your shrink is messing with you in a good way rather than the bad way you may have been doing it to yourself. Same process is going on though, and likely niether are "reality". Still, if it works for you that's great.
Forget thrust, drag, lift and weight. Airplanes fly because of money.
Maybe I should land it on GNOME CVS before I get another drive failure. ;-)
*Freaky!*
A very good friend of mine had an account on my system when he was killed (hit by a bus while bike riding). That was almost 9 years ago, and it wasn't that long ago that I finally removed the account. Though it was only the first couple of years that I really couldn't bring myself to do it, after that, I pretty much forgot about it until I was doing some housekeeping. But I still had to tell myself "get over it already".
Since most /. readers seem to use linux, this is probably relevant. Use the root account. Give it to a friend you trust, of failing that, you can just let whoever gets the computer read the files. Just load into GRUB, press e to edit the kernel arguments, and boot to single user mode. pwd root, enter the password, and it's done, someone can get your files after you die. This obviously won't work with encrypted files, but if you think people should only get them after you die, then you shouldn't encrypt them in the first place, just chmod 700 them.
- real estate (house, summer place),
- monetary assets (bank, liquidity, stock),
- vehicles (car, motorcycle, boat),
- other valuables (antiques, silverware),
- personal goods (books, music),
- memory lane (letters, family pictures)
The point in common with all the above is that everything is a material asset whose location can easily and quickly be determined.The new thing since the proliferation of computers and the Internet is that people suddenly have immaterial assets to be considered too, but their existence might well be unknown or their location unclear.
Then, proving credentials to get access to the data can be difficult:
For instance, just think how Internic handles domain transfers when your ISP disappeared or locked you out - they want confirmation from the same e-mail address used to register the domain, yet you cannot access that account right now.
what if the deceased's data is hosted in a foreign country, in an attempt to escape local laws forbidding that type of online content? Picture a case where you know for fact that the deceased scanned and stored important data, uploaded it to a foreign server, but left no trace of the password anywhere. how do you recover the data?
Add to this the fact that people might create e-mail or shell accounts on different hosts for different purposes: free software development, meeting sex partners, job, other hobbies... How do you keep track of them all, yourself? Can you positively say whether you still have an account on the Dead Hackers Society BBS and what the password might be? What about that free e-mail account that you use to correspond with your mistress to whom you had promised to give that old but cozzy summer place nobody else but you and her knows about?
This being said, I just got married and these are all things I have to worry about, as I update my last will... *yikes*
Software is not supposed to be about how to work around a useability issue. - Ken Barber
Any thoughts? Implementations? Cool things that you would like to see done after you die?
I love thinking about this; maybe I'll spend some dream time on it.
In the hollywood movies and TV, it's always someone very trusted who puts things into motion, like a butler, a sister, a friend who knows about your secret and sinister past.
If you're running Linux, you have tools like kalarm, which can send text OR RUN COMMANDS at specified times. On login, you could timestamp an empty file with the command "touch". Every day or week or other, you could have kalarm run a script to check the stamp. If it's been a while since you've logged in, the script senda a warning e-mail about self-destruct. If, after another 2 days and 2 more warnings the file's timestamp is unchanged, self-destruct commences.
Of course, it would be cool if someone would write a script like this, call it SELF_DESTRUCT, and place it under the GPL. It's a fantastic way to piss off the greedy capitalist trolls on slashdot, and you would have many adoring fans.
I have, and documented on Slashdot and other forums, my bouts with depression and suicide. I have since gotten better.
A friend of mine, my best friend actually, killed himself in 1999. We were able to guess the secret answer to get into his Yahoo account and see who he had contacted and let them know that he passed on. Once we had access to his Yahoo account, we got the password to his ICQ account from it. No clue in either accounts as to why he committed suicide.
Most of his stuff ended up in a rental locker, and a year ago his widow was going to take the stuff out and inventory it, so she called the rental locker to cancel the account. The next day the locker was cleaned out, everything was gone. He had written stories, RPG game adventures, computer programs, had a ton of books and videos, a lot of IP that he worked on. A goldmine of stuff, but it was all stolen the day his widow called to cancel the account.
A fraction of the stuff, Traveller, AD&D, books were given to me for safe keeping as we were still using them in role playing games. My best friend was the Referee and another friend took over and needed access to the books. That is all that is left of his legacy beides his widow and daughter and whatever family he had left (his mother died of cancer soon after he killed himself).
So basically theives took over the best parts of his life that was left over, and only a few trusted friends have what is left that was not stolen. No matter what, the theives cannot steal our memories of him. Rest in peace, my good friend.
Remember, Slashdot does not have a -1 disagree moderation, and no, troll, flamebait, and overrated are not substitutes.
1. Wife has main password to my machines, in the event I die unexpectedly - she can get to my memoirs and writings (most of the rest of the stuff is just information I collected doing research on various subjects). Conversely, I am the system admin on my home network, so I already have access to everyone's computer - so if one my family members dies (heaven forbid) I will be able to peruse their drives as needed.
2. In the event of a terminal illness over a longer time, I will burn a CD of the stuff I want them to have (will save them having to go through a bunch of extraneous files after my death).
Lodragan Draoidh
The more you explain it, the more I don't understand it. - Mark Twain
I found a (younger) friend and asked him to be my literary executor. I plan to send him a CD this summer with html copies of all my journals for the past 10-15 years, and all my emails (even the spam) for the past 7. I plan to send it encrypted, and to leave the password with my will, with instructions to send it to him. I'll leave him some $$$, and he's agreed to buy web space and post the entire thing.
This discussion let me to think about also including my CVS repository of all my code. I'll think about this and probably do it.
Now that I think about it, having the password with my will introduces a single point of failure. I need to find a better way to deal with that.
I have started doing something about this, because I am concerned about providing for my wife if something were to happen to me. I have started documenting everything about my computer, online accounts, financial data, etc, so someone could care for my wife (who is in the early stages of alzheimer's) - or even take care of me, if necessary.
The two problems are a) who would take on this responsibility, and b) where do I put all this info so that it cannot be used until I *want* it to be used. I am talking to friends, family, lawyers, etc - but it would seem like this would not be an unusual situation.
One small component of this is making sure the appropriate person gets notified if something happens to me. I *thought* I remembered a software package or web site that operated as a "dead-man switch" - if you did not check in periodically, it would assume you were dead and take appreoriate actions - like delete pr0n, send email notification, etc. But I have not been able to find this. Any suggestions?