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The Flickering Mind

daltonlp writes "The Flickering Mind deals a crippling blow to the blind faith that educators and politicians place in computers as solutions to education's woes. The level of research and breadth of evidence is tremendous. The book sums up America's past 20 years of false promises, senseless faddism, and wasted millions in attempts to computerize the nation's education system. And no, open source won't help a bit." Read on for the rest of Dalton's review of The Flickering Mind. The Flickering Mind author Todd Oppenheimer pages 512 publisher Random House (Oct. 2003) rating Excellent reviewer Lloyd Dalton ISBN 1400060443 summary An extremely well-researched critique of technology's role in education.

What's bad: The first 350 pages of The Flickering Mind are as depressing as anything I've read. In case after case, Oppenheimer describes politicians' and educators' mindless acceptance of claims by technology pundits and technology companies. The sheer number of tax dollars poured into worthless software and soon-to-be-obsolete hardware is appalling The fact that so few lessons have been learned in 20 years beggars the imagination.

Those are my words, not the author's. The book's examples are laid out in very plain, factual language. No raving rants, no wild tangents. Just record after record, study after study, interview after interview.

Oppenheimer has researched the book by interviewing teachers, students, former students, educational software employees, district policymakers and government officials across the U.S. People with hands-on experience using things like distance-learning systems, CD-ROM-based textbooks, math and reading games, multimedia software, student laptops, school intranets, web-based research papers, and dozens of pieces of educational technology.

A recurring theme in these interviews is how computers either make formerly easy things harder (like classroom discussion), and hard things avoidable (students who know how to copy-paste don't have to construct sentences).

"One English teacher could readily tell which of her students essays were conceived on a computer. "They don't link ideas," the teacher said. "They just write one thing, and then they write another one, and they don't seem to see or develop the relationships between them."

The many interviews give The Flickering Mind a personal feel, and make the reading easier. In many ways, it's like a record of the author's travels from school to school. But one of the book's great strengths is Oppenheimer's unwillingness to rely on anecdotal evidence. Much of the book is devoted to analyzing studies of technology's impact in schools. A good chunk of these studies are commissioned by firms that sell educational software. Not surprisingly, they tend to be shallow and nonscientific. Many pages are spent pointing out flaws in this research. This becomes important when Oppenheimer turns the same critical eye on studies which support his own conclusions. An interesting sub-topic of the book is how very few truly objective educational technology studies exist.

All the evidence against computers as useful learning tools wouldn't be so alarming if computers didn't cost so much. But educators seem especially blind to the continual costs of staying on the technology bandwagon. There are two faces to this problem, and The Flickering Mind addresses both. The first is schools cutting faculty and programs in order to purchase hardware and software. The second is local and national governments granting subsidies and to companies who promise to assist schools with technology. In both cases, taxpayers foot the bill.

The Flickering Mind relies mainly on educators' own criteria for determining how technology helps learning (can the kids read, write, and do math?) But it also takes time to puncture the oft-recycled dogma that society has a shortage of graduates with high-tech skills:

"When employers who were fretting about this gap were asked what skills mattered to them, this is what they said: Most important of all is a deep and broad base of knowledge. "Want to get a job using information technology to solve problems? Know something about the problems that need to be solved." This statement reflected the sentiments of nearly two thirds of the Information Technology Association of America's members. Following far behind this priority was "hands-on experience" with technical work, which less than half the nation's IT managers considered critical (Most apparently felt perfectly capable of teaching those skills on the job.)

What's good:

All is not Luddite doom-and-gloom. The Flickering Mind is careful to highlight the areas where computer technology helps kids learn. Many schools do benefit from computers--as long as the computers are in central labs (not in the classroom), and not networked. One school has a senior-level class in which students build the computers used in the labs. Programming classes are valued by upperclassmen with an interest in technology careers. Some educators have made adjustments, like the teacher who removed all but a single-size font from the machines "so the students can write instead of wasting time adjusting the text".

The final third of the book is an uplifting counterpart to the ignorance and frustration described in the first two thirds. Oppenheimer gives details of visits to several schools which buck the trend of embracing technology as an end in itself. They use computers, but not in the class:

"In an aging brick building on New York's Upper East Side, a dozen teenagers of varying ages, half of whom look like street kids, pull their desks into a circle as their teacher distributes several thick handouts. "You're killing trees," one student complains."

"Yes," says the teacher. "I'm killing lots of trees"

After the students have spent fifteen to twenty minutes with the handouts, discussion begins. The debate is constant and heated. Whenever the dialog bogs down or goes off course, the teacher quickly interrupts. "I want to hear some pieces of evidence here!" he insists.

A university professor contrasted former students of this school with others she'd met: "I've had the experience of asking students a question and there's a one-sentence answer. And it's not a question of shyness or dumbness, but the person hasn't learned how to develop an idea. How to make a statement and then qualify and describe and give examples and illustrations. Each and every one of these people could do that."

Conclusion

The Flickering Mind is one of the most well-researched books I've read. It is well worth checking out from your library. It's even more worth buying, because you'll likely be re-reading it and lending it to your friends.

You can purchase the The Flickering Mind from bn.com. Slashdot welcomes readers' book reviews -- to see your own review here, carefully read the book review guidelines, then visit the submission page.

87 of 455 comments (clear)

  1. Cut 'n' Dried by American+AC+in+Paris · · Score: 4, Insightful
    The Flickering Mind deals a crippling blow to the blind faith that educators and politicians place in computers as solutions to education's woes.

    Methinks the submitter doesn't speak with educators and politicians all that often. It's simply absurd to suggest that your typical educator or politician blindly believes that computers are the solution to America's education woes.

    One wonders about the reviewer's credentials if this is how he frames the debate surrounding the use of technology in our schools. This is a complex issue with no clear answers--not some good vs. evil Joes 'n' Cobra brawl.

    --

    Obliteracy: Words with explosions

    1. Re:Cut 'n' Dried by jellomizer · · Score: 4, Insightful

      They don't see is as a full solution to the woes but they see is a big enough part to cut the Arts, Music and any other area that encourages free thinking.

      --
      If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    2. Re:Cut 'n' Dried by taliver · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I have spoken to both educators and politicians, and in my opinion, they both believe that by giving students the 'technological edge', they will be better pupils and move farther faster.

      No, the teachers have no idea what the students are doing on the computers. No, the teachers rarely have a clue how to even use them effectively. Yes, they think that by setting a child in front of one, and letting them play 'educational games', that learning will be FUN, and therefore better, and therefore the students will learn more.

      And politicians find themselves with a very good problem that they can truly throw money at. "Give every child a laptop!" "Every desk should have a computer!", etc.

      I swear if the school my kid attends ever starts pushing computers in front of him, I'll switch to homeschooling where I can trust he'll be reading actual books.

      --

      I demand a million helicopters and a DOLLAR!

    3. Re:Cut 'n' Dried by raider_red · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Unfortunately, a lot of them do. I got into an argument with two friends over this one day. One's the principal of a school in Austin, the other is a teacher there. They both feel that computer skills are the number one thing they need to teach to make sure that students are successful, while I believe that Math and Science are. (I'm a computer professional.)

      The fourth person in the argument is a math teacher, (and soon to be head of her school's math department) who feels that computers are a distant second to Math, Science and Writing skills.

      Unfortunately, the computer has become the panacea to bad teaching. They think that if you put a student in front of a computer and he is taught to use it, he'll magically acquire a competence in the pure sciences. Really, they'll be qualified to work as data-entry clerks, but the educators don't seem to understand that.

      --
      It's good to use your head, but not as a battering ram.
    4. Re:Cut 'n' Dried by TheWanderingHermit · · Score: 4, Insightful

      As a former teacher, I'd have to agree that teaches do NOT believe computers are the solution. Many teachers avoid computers, since their students know so much more about them than they do.

      On the other hand, I have seen cases where politicians are more interested in looking good than in fixing the real problems (would you believe that!?), and come up with plans to use computers and claiming they'll fix all the troubles.

      The bottom line is the teacher-student relationship. That is one of the most important factors in teaching. A good teacher (as long as they have support in discipline issues), can teach students with nothing but a blackboard and chalk for the teacher and paper and pencils for the students. Any teacher who thinks computers are the solution should find another job! On the other end, a good teacher who learns how to use computers, could find many ways to integrate them into the classroom and assignments.

      I mentioned support on discipline. In my experience, if politicians and educators want to focus on one "answer" that will have the greatest effect on improving education, that's the one subject to tackle: making sure teachers get support on enforcing appropriate classroom behavior. (Just one example: I had an obnoxious student. I had worked with him, kept him after school, given him disciplinary assignments, talked on the phone many times with his parents, and nothing worked. I finally wrote up a referral for him to see the assistant principal. 6 weeks later the referal was in my mailbox with a sticky note saying, "Has this been resolved?" without the principal ever seeing the student. The next year this assistant princiapal was promoted to principal of the county's new school. If you want solutions for education, censure administrators like that and focus on discipline, not on adding computers.) (Sorry for the rant, but it's to point out there are many worse problems in education than worrying about using computers.)

    5. Re:Cut 'n' Dried by American+AC+in+Paris · · Score: 3, Insightful
      I agree with you that there exists a body of educators and politicians who do have an inflated sense of the value of technology in our schools. There is also a large contingent of intelligent, informed educators and politicians who have a good understanding of the limitations of computers.

      What I disagree with is the sweeping, black-and-white generalizations the reviewer uses to set the tone of the debate. It's wrong and counterproductive to frame the entire educational and political community in such a simple, petty fashion. It makes me think that the reviewer more interested in parading his own opinions than making thoughtful contribution to a complex issue.

      Computers do have a place in education, and mistakes are made in both directions when it comes to technology spending in education. To start a discussion by painting educators and politicians as uninformed, mindless zealots does nothing but trivialize the matter at hand.

      --

      Obliteracy: Words with explosions

    6. Re:Cut 'n' Dried by Reality+Master+101 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Unfortunately, a lot of them do. I got into an argument with two friends over this one day. One's the principal of a school in Austin, the other is a teacher there. They both feel that computer skills are the number one thing they need to teach to make sure that students are successful, while I believe that Math and Science are. (I'm a computer professional.)

      Do you not see your own brand of blindness here? I readily admit I'm a math and science geek, and love both. But I will also say that math and science are completely useless to a LOT of people who could not care less about it, and in fact, it's OKAY that they don't care. Very few things in this world require science or high-level math past arithmetic.

      Reading and writing are infinitely more important, because they underpin everything, including critical thinking. I've known a lot of people who liked math and science, but were utterly useless as thinkers. Hell, just look at Slashdot. :)

      --
      Sometimes it's best to just let stupid people be stupid.
    7. Re:Cut 'n' Dried by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Do you not see your own brand of blindness here? I readily admit I'm a math and science geek, and love both. But I will also say that math and science are completely useless to a LOT of people who could not care less about it, and in fact, it's OKAY that they don't care. Very few things in this world require science or high-level math past arithmetic.

      Teaching math and science is the foundation for teaching abstract critical thinking. What seems to pass for "crtical thinking" with many people today is the ability to memorize pithy sayings and repeat them on command.

      Some (like you apparently) may have developed an interest on their own, but most were not taught to have this interest, or understand why it might be important.

      In many places we have people who have really little more than a 16th century education.

      They may be able to do basic addition and subtraction. They probably can read an advertisement, a newspaper and the religious book of their choice.

      And while I'm not suggesting they need to know how to calculate the trajectory of a satellite, they don't even understand that a satellite has a trajectory or why one might want to calculate it!

      Some of these people are teachers that I have personally met in a major US urban public school system!

    8. Re:Cut 'n' Dried by nelsonal · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Algebra and Calculus underpin a whole lot of the current world, while calc isn't neccessary, understanding things like exponential growth, rates of change (and their relationship to position), and they make explination of how the worlds of business and finance work. Those two worlds will at a minimum tangentially affect most people's lives. Saving for retirement and a mortgage are just two examples. Sure, anyone could be taught to use an ammortization calculator, but the person with a calculus education can tell pretty quickly calculator is off, using tricks that make sense looking back at the problem (like the rule of 72).
      Ironically, having computer skills is just a bit of rote training, the jobs that everyone was (is?) pushing so hard to get kids up to speed for require more of an understanding of how the computer system works which usually require a good measure of critical thinking, logic, and math skills, not basic training on how to use Windows and Office. Better to know how a spreadsheet works, and apply that knowledge to Office.

      --
      Degaussing scares the bad magnetism out of the monitor and fills it with good karma.
    9. Re:Cut 'n' Dried by linzeal · · Score: 3, Insightful
      What is wrong with giving students a computer with a multitude of programs and tutorials on it and let them figure it out? The problem I have seen as a first year teacher's assistant is that kids simply will not study anything that is not directly related to what they need to pass their classes for the majority. The minority use computers as tools and excel at using some of the 10,000's of acedemically related software from Art Programs to Zoology out there not to mention the billions of information spiggots online.

      Technology is not the problem it is the illiterate educators and the lackidasical students who have been taught no better than to (go to class/take notes/ study notes/take test) system for umpteen years when it should look like (go online with an educational matrix designed for you/have access to expert systems backed by databases of already asked questions and live mentors to help with understanding/discuss with your peers in forums issues pertinent to you/get graded on particpation in helping others and convincing an expert system that you have grasp of the material and than move on to another self actualized education area/have lunch/go get some coffee/still be connected wirelessly so others may get help from you/etcetera). Accreditation as it currently stands is unbearably quaint but does not involve any personalization or have the ability to do so without a massive expenditure in new teaching talent. More teachers are not the answer, holding students responsible for their own education is like we as professionals are.

    10. Re:Cut 'n' Dried by GreyyGuy · · Score: 4, Funny

      Please send me the names and addresses of all the people you know who find math and science useless. My personal business needs more customers that can't understand the math on the bill I send them, and who will nod blindly to the scientific gobbledygook that I use to describe my products. I think I can sell a lot of stuff to people unaware of the dangers of Dihydrogen Monoxide. It's in the food you eat, you know.

    11. Re:Cut 'n' Dried by wjwlsn · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Wrong wrong wrong! Math and science are critical to a fundamental education. Yes, reading and writing are very important... but since you mentioned it, what about critical thinking? In which classes did you learn logic and analysis? Which classes forced you to think through a problem from beginning to end, and how to learn new things on your own? Match and science classes are not about stuffing your head full of facts and methods... they are about teaching you how to THINK.

      --
      Getting tired of Slashdot... moving to Usenet comp.misc for a while.
    12. Re:Cut 'n' Dried by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Unfortunately, the computer has become the panacea to bad teaching. They think that if you put a student in front of a computer and he is taught to use it, he'll magically acquire a competence in the pure sciences. Really, they'll be qualified to work as data-entry clerks, but the educators don't seem to understand that.

      I think that what modern education administration (not necessarily teachers, although the stupid ones do play a big part) and modern media has failed to realize about 'Generation-X' and all of us now in our late-20's, 30's that are now making good salaries in the computer industry is that we weren't slackers that learned computers because of video gaming and sleeping in half the day. We learned computers because that was one outlet of learning and exploring that was challenging, new and exciting to us at that time because our middle/high-school experiences were filled with teachers not skilled at TEACHING! And getting a master's in education does not a good TEACHER make! You can't simply train any random person to be a good teacher, just as you can't train any random kid to be a whiz with computers.

      Personally I found learning BASIC programming to be a challenge waiting to be conquered most nights at home while I neglected the boringly-taught subjects of Social Studies and History. That's sad, because I have always been interested deeply in History and Social Studies (to a degree) from when I was a kid to the present. Unfortunately I knew more about Vietnam, WW2, and several other historically major events than the majority of my teachers because I read on my own. Most other kids didn't do that. Because I was bored to tears being forced to learn the basics of those courses and regurgitate info on paper, I simply focused more of my 'learning' efforts on things like computers which I did not have to regurgitate info in a typical classroom setting. I learned faster and worked harder at it since it was fresh and new.

      If the education administration would quit trying to dumb down the courses for the least common denominator so that every kid felt good about themselves, we'd have a lot less wasted money in our schools today. And yes, I'm sure that will cause both economic and political disparities between groups of people, but which would you rather have? A declining educational system with a bunch of happy, dumb adults running society; or an at times divided society with mostly educated people trying to do their best?

    13. Re:Cut 'n' Dried by hazem · · Score: 2, Insightful

      science are completely useless to a LOT of people who could not care less about it, and in fact, it's OKAY that they don't care. Very few things in this world require science or high-level math past arithmetic.

      Just because people don't care to use it, that doesn't mean it's useless.

      For example, a car costs $16000. Which is better?
      $1500 cash back, with a 4.75% APR for 48 months?
      or 0$ APR for 48 months?
      (about 40 cents difference)

      Or, how about the new Sawdust Diet - low carb, low fat, low protein. It's the latest rage! Guaranteed to lose weight!

      Let's face it. Kids need more than computers to be smart. If education is not providing the tools to live successfully and not get ripped of, we've really let the kids down.

    14. Re:Cut 'n' Dried by linzeal · · Score: 2, Insightful
      No, problem is with the children. After the age of 10 most of your new habits come from your peers. Generationaly speaking different cultures arise because of socioeconomic realities that the children percieve and react to attract mates and find satisfaction in their respective careers.

      Their modalites of being in this age range from the pencil and paper write down everything the teacher says thoughtlessly set to the laptop toting with tools for each class set. Getting these two together and having the more computer literate to teach the less literate is posing a huge challange. The stigma of being a geek is hampering progress in education like nothing I have ever seen. I have presented possible coursework for half a dozen classes only to have it all summarily rejected even though 95% of it was open source and all of it was free. Teachers fear technology replacing them, but they only have themselves to blame as they did not keep pace with it. I learn more on the internet in a weekend sometimes than I do for a month in class. Something is wrong.

    15. Re:Cut 'n' Dried by linzeal · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Games help tremendously. We just need to make them more realistic. I have pimping it a bit today but I like the orbital flight simulator aptly named orbiter and have personaly used it to demonstrate aerobraking for a space science class. When you can get most software at 80% off or so online as a student or faculty there is no real execuse not to use the software that professionals in the field actively use now to begin famaliarization with them.

    16. Re:Cut 'n' Dried by linzeal · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Society most make more specialized and novel livliehoods accesible for future generations such as space explorer, species engineer, etcetera before we will see children have the impetus to inspire them or the onus to carry their fervor forward. Who the fuck wants to work the ass off to be a business major when they can slack and still make 70k a year before they are retired?

    17. Re:Cut 'n' Dried by janeil · · Score: 2, Insightful
      Many teachers avoid computers, since their students know so much more about them than they do.

      I always hate to hear this as a slashdotter-teacher who has forgotten more than these kids will ever know. The truth is the percentage of kids who really know anything about computers is about the same as adults, there's those few geeks like us, but most of the kids know only paltry subset skills, like installing programs, running their ICQ apps, and whatever they learn at school. They're mostly clueless. Just adept at running the stuff they like. They aren't afraid of doing something wrong, perhaps, as some older folks seem to be when using a computer. Of course, your average public school teacher is perhaps a little more clueless then the general public because a) we don't make much money, and computers aren't cheap, and b) we don't need them for our day to day jobs. That is, in a building with 12 employees and 300 children, you don't really need email or a database. Of course it's great fun to do so, but not really economically feasible.

      A good teacher (as long as they have support in discipline issues), can teach students with nothing but a blackboard and chalk...

      Aye, there's the rub. It's like that Steve Martin bit, how to be a millionare. "First, get a $1,000,000." So first, get a Good Teacher. You know, maybe like Jaime Escalante. Nothing to it.

    18. Re:Cut 'n' Dried by PitaBred · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Because reading a math book doesn't adequately teach math many times. Process is a very important part, and you DON'T see that with a pre-generated image. I've found that I pay attention less in classes where they just flash images and such in front of me. Whee! More pretty pictures!
      Show me WHAT you're doing and WHY you're doing it. that's the only way you can learn.
      And as for the "later in the semester thing", you can go off on tangets with anything. It doesn't accomplish the set objectives of the class. The instructor is perfectly valid telling you to take another class, or ask them after class. Maybe you are the one who's blinded.

    19. Re:Cut 'n' Dried by RealAlaskan · · Score: 3, Interesting
      >>I swear if the school my kid attends ever starts pushing computers in front of him, I'll switch to homeschooling where I can trust he'll be reading actual books.

      >Do it anyway. He'll get a better education that way.

      I was going to say you were right, but then I realized that you're wrong. The kid won't get a better education, he'll get an education! Schools are about schooling, and education is not included.

      There are very few good teachers, but those few are responsible for all the education which happens in the schools. For a good view of what schooling is all about, and how it differs from education, see John Taylor Gatto's essay, The Six-Lesson School Teacher.

    20. Re:Cut 'n' Dried by john_is_war · · Score: 2, Informative

      No, the teachers rarely have a clue how to even use them effectively.

      You couldn't have hit it any better. I'm a senior in HS, and I'm good friends with one of the higher ups in our technology department. The main problem is that teachers don't know how to integrate the computers in to learning. Specifically the English department, mostly because they are computer inept. The other reason is the technology department. I would bet if our tech department is like all the others, I would blame the entire lack of technology due to their counterproductiveness. They hold everything back and there's really only 1 good tech guy.

      My solution? Create a student committee or an open forum or something just to try to get ideas in the teacher's heads of what they can do. The sky may be the limit, but I'm sure they could at least get off the ground.

      --
      Live life to the fullest. It's not that life is short, but that you are dead for so long.
    21. Re:Cut 'n' Dried by Libraryman · · Score: 2, Insightful
      It's simply absurd to suggest that your typical educator or politician blindly believes that computers are the solution to America's education woes.
      Educators do not think computer will solve every problem, just the one of what to do with your students during the school day.

      I am an educator, I have sat on the tech curriculum committees of every school I have worked at. Allow me to relate some of the truly stupid ways teachers use or want to use technology. At an elementary school tech curriculum planning meeting I was part of I listened to a KINDERGARTEN teacher tell me that her 5 year olds understood graphing and needed to be starting to learn Excel. She went on to say the they needed to be taught to use digital cameras and photo editing software.

      We are talking about kids who cannot color inside the lines. The cannot count to 20 without skipping a couple of the teens. Fifth grade teachers in the meeting agreed that they should be taught Excel because it would be useful to them in middle school!

      At the same school I had a teacher who had not bothered to teach her kids how to use an encyclopedia (or even bring a set into the room) assign her students an online research project on a rain forest animal. For those of you who are not parents or teachers of young children that means she turned EIGHT-YEAR-OLDS loose on the web (with no supervision or instruction before hand I might add). Would any of you be surprised to learn that anaconda.com is NOT a website about snakes!

      It doesn't matter if teachers and administrators do not claim that computers will solve all of the schools problems. Just making them available creates an entire new class of problem. I like to call it the "teaching Powerpoint is easier than teaching" problem. Any teacher who doesn't feel like teaching reading right now can simply point his/her kids at a computer and tell them to "research." It is now assumed by virtually every teacher I have spoken to that children are not only computer literate, but that they are more computer literate that their teachers!

      The teacher who set eight year old kids loose at anaconda.com did not get into trouble for giving the assignment. Or for failing to prepare her kids for it, or for failing to supervise their computer use. The kids got in trouble. The Principal assumed that they had gone there on purpose because "these kids all have computer and the web at home" so they must have known what they were doing.

      I talk about this with anyone who will listen, but I assure you that educators are not willing to hear what I am saying. Technology makes teachers jobs easier because it replaces real teaching time (that has to be planned for) with supervision in a computer lab while student stare mesmerized at the flickering CRTs. A computer is better than Ritalin at getting kids to sit still for hours on end.

      Give a teacher access to a computer lab, or better yet a computer cluster in his room and watch as his free time multiplies, his stress flows away, and his kids get stupider by the minute. If we cared about our children and whether or not they learned anything in school we would not allow them to use a word processor until they could write good essays by hand. they would not use a spreadsheet until they were taking accounting, and they would not go to the internet to research a subject until they had exhausted all the paper sources in the library, and written a rough draft of the paper. And they would never be allowed to touch Powerpont. Not with a ten foot pole.

      Luck for [lazy] teachers and Microsoft, we don't care if our students learn. Only that they sit quietly, and keep their hands to themselves.

      Of course this does not precisely apply to those teachers who were actually hired to teach computer science, although they too should be prohibited from teaching Powerpoint.

    22. Re:Cut 'n' Dried by An+Onerous+Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Bull.

      That was my first reaction, anyhow. My second reaction was a bit more respectable. That was the reaction where I stopped thinking how horrible it was for you to say, and started thinking about why you're saying it.

      If it's just about employability, you're right: most jobs these days don't require anything beyond basic algebra, and what little tidbits of science are needed can be trained on the job. Why learn all about the radio spectrum when all you need to work at Dish Network's call center is "trees and power lines block our signal?"

      But there's something very dehumanizing about the idea of only teaching people that which they need to know to perform their function in life. It reminds me of Plato's ideal state, where astronomy, geometry, and dialectic were to be taught only to a few initiates. Everyone knows their place, and people are discouraged from ever straying from it.

      But the more important argument against this position is a pragmatic one: People need to know science. People need to know it so that they don't get suckered by alternative medicine scams, so that they can critically evaluate claims in a debate between a business and an environmental group, so that they can have some conception of what claims are reasonable and what claims are utter hogwash. How do we expect to run a democracy with a citizenry who decides issues like genetically modified foods and abortion rights based on trite aphorisms?

      A firm understanding of science is a powerful innoculation against those pernicious memes which want to infect your brain and steal your money.

      Hell, I once had a very long debate with a music teacher over a certain cash-only multi-level marketing scam. I could mathematically prove that the only money coming into the system was money provided by other people, and that it was entirely impossible for everyone to see their money come back eightfold. But no matter how I dumbed it down for him, he just didn't get that you can't make money by simply trading it around with other people. I lost touch with him, so I don't know the outcome, but he's probably a few hundred dollars poorer for it.

      I grudgingly have to agree with you on one point: Given a choice between a school that turned out mathematicians and science geeks and one which turned out readers and critical thinkers, I would have to choose the latter. But given that our educational system has these kids for 1260 hours per year from first grade onward, there should be plenty of time for both.

      --

      You want the truthiness? You can't handle the truthiness!

    23. Re:Cut 'n' Dried by utdpenguin · · Score: 2, Interesting
      What class? Hopefully all of them!
      I am a new English teacher. I teach reading and writting, but I also teach critical thinking. I don't do it directly of course. We read a story. We discuss it,a nd I force them, via the discussion, to think through problems in it. I ask questions (in discussions, one assignments and on tests) that require that the students use critical thinking to get to the answer. When a student can't get to the answer I don't just give it to him or her. I start them on the path towwards figuring it out. Maybe I help them with the first step, or give them a hint in the right direction. I never help them with more than a step at a time; I make them work things out.


      The problem is that this is much harder to do. Also, it produces a much higher failure rate since many students refuse to try having been conditioned to the normal style of education. High failure ratres make me look bad. It is a bit of a cache-22.

      --
      In Soviet Russia you dant have to put up with these crappy jokes
    24. Re:Cut 'n' Dried by corsican · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Here's a dog that does calculus:

      http://abcnews.go.com/sections/scitech/DyeHard/d ye hard030529.html

      I've known a lot of people who liked math and science, but were utterly useless as thinkers.

      Conversely, I've known a lot of mediocre thinkers who could have benefitted from the logic training that advanced math provides.

      "Why do I have to learn this stuff? It's so hard, and I'll never use it in the real world." The blame for the second part of the complaint lies with math teachers. They cater well to the gifted among us, but do nothing to entice the rest of humanity into something that ought to be as joyous to learn as music.

      As far as the first complaint, that math is hard, I can't help that. It is hard. So is music.

      Calculus in particular and math in general should not be a grind. You cannot do well at it as long as you regard it as a dreaded battleground that you must cross in order to get your card punched. Instead, think of it as a hike over a mountain pass. Yes, it's hard work to trudge up those slopes. And yes, you long to rest in the valley that lies on the other side. But the view from up there is breathtaking.

      And that's what calculus and higher math do for you; gives you a vantage point on the world that you cannot have any other way. It teaches you the language you must know to understand how the wind blows, how the waters flow, how the sun shines, how music reaches your ear, how the planets cycle through the heavens, and much more. Even the ebb and flow of such human activities as population dynamics and economics are better viewed from calculus' highlands. If you don't care about any of that stuff and prefer to remain in self-imposed ignorance, staring at your CRT day after day as you enter in column after column of meaningless data that no one is ever going to look at, looking forward only to the weekend so you can go kill some more of your rapidly dwindling supply of brain cells, thus temporarily forgetting your colorless, meaningless pathetic life, then so be it. Go with God.

      One of my many hobbies is stained glass. Recently I made an icosohedron storage box using stained glass construction. I wanted a depth to the glass so each triangle is compsed of two layers; one of clear glass for the outside of the box and one of textured glass for the inside. In effect, I actually built two boxes. The triangular pieces that comprised the inside had to be slightly smaller that the outside pieces so it would fit together correctly, and tightly. I could not have built it if I did not know trigonometry. It is sitting on my shelf because I couldn't bear to part with it; a testament to the joy of higher math.

      Pick up a book, my friend. Math and a strong vocabulary are the crucial building blocks of all other education. To focus solely on language skills and ignore math is to hough yourself.

      --
      --If something I said could be taken two ways, and one of those ways made you cry, then I meant the other way.
    25. Re:Cut 'n' Dried by An+Onerous+Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I wish the teaching profession would be seen more as a profession, with certain standards of performance, professional development, study into best practices, and the whole lot. Right now, teachers are given a minimum of training, maybe a couple hundred hours of apprenticeship under a more experienced teacher, then shoved into a room full of kids and left to fend for themselves.

      I've read that a promising practice is just to let teachers observe each other teaching on a regular basis, so that they have some level of feedback.

      --

      You want the truthiness? You can't handle the truthiness!

    26. Re:Cut 'n' Dried by TheWanderingHermit · · Score: 2, Insightful

      You're right, in part. But if the kid doesn't get an education, s/he'll end up in a low pay job or welfare or prison and be a drain on the system.

      I think parents should be held responsible for their kids behavior. Simple exmaple: If the kid trashes a room and won't clean it up, or damages property, the parent is required to come in and clean it up and pay for damages, or face legal action. In my experience many parents don't enforce discipline because they can get away with it and are at about the same maturity level as their kids (often the case when 13 or 14 year olds have babies, which I had to deal with much more than I would have expected).

    27. Re:Cut 'n' Dried by TheWanderingHermit · · Score: 2, Insightful

      why would I use a chalkbord or a markerboard to sketch out things when I could of had all of that already prepared and formalized months or years in advance with a flash animation or a simple jpeg?

      I never said you shouldn't have those tools available. Only that a good teacher could teach without them. The tools don't make a poor teacher good. If the ability to teach is there, then lack of tools won't get in the way. If someone needs these tools to teach, then they don't understand the art and craft of teaching and only see the idea of transferring data from one point to another.

      There's nothing wrong with using animations, but if they're prepared months in advance, there's no interaction. What if yesterday's class included unexpected questions, or there was a recent news article that puts a different perspective on what you were going to cover? The animation helps, but it's only a tool. As conditions change, it is up to the teacher to change with them. This happens every minute of every day. If you depend on prepared animations and presentations, you'll end up with a very mechanical teaching style. In the long run, you'll find fewer and fewer students respecting you.

      Why should students have to take notes in the class when I can transfer to them with the IR port on my laptop or through wifi?

      I'm so glad this comment/question comes from a "future teacher" and not a teacher. There are many reasons for taking notes in class. Some students need the activity to help them absorb the material (if they're kinetic learners, they need this to learn). Students need to develop the ability to listen to the teacher, select what is important, and include that. This discretion is not easily taught in one or two classes, but is developed over years of taking notes and learning what ends up on the test and what doesn't. It also helps students develop organizational skills as they learn not only what to put in their notes, but how to organize and study them in a way that works best for them. There are a large number of decision making and organizational skills students learn from note taking. By giving students the notes, you help them learn one subject, but short change them on many more. Instead of teaching them to fish so they can feed themselves for a lifetime, you're giving them the fish so they can eat for today. You are making them overly dependent on you.

      If students did not take the time to read the material beforehand and write down things they did not understand than screw them.

      You've never taught below high school level, have you? This touches on many of the skills mentioned above -- maybe they can read ahead, maybe not, but you have to work with them to help them learn what they need to learn from the textbooks. This statement actually almost contradicts the one before it.

      I'm there to take questions and clarify things for the slower folk not rehash, reiterate or regurgitate material

      You're there to clarify for EVERYONE, not just "slower folk" (As a former Special Ed teacher, I am offended by this statement, but I'll ignore it on the grounds that so much of this post has shown that you have not had enough training yet to really understand the teaching and learning process). You ARE there to reiterate material, often in different ways, until the students get it. That's part of teaching. If you don't like it, get a job running your mouth as a lecturer in some other career.

      Well we can't get into that, that is for later in the semester

      You've never had to deal with lesson plans or the pressure of needing to cover a certain amount of material to meet requirements for the Standards of Learning, have you? Or you've never had to deal with questions that lead to answers that depend on material that will be covered over the course of 2-3 days, have you? Such an answer (or "It's in another class") is not selfish. It's just a fact of practical life. Sometimes the answer is best left un

  2. Clifford Stoll's two books by The+I+Shing · · Score: 5, Informative

    Astronomer Clifford Stoll similarly makes compelling arguments against computers in the classroom (libraries as well) in his books Silicon Snake Oil and High-Tech Heretic.

    I saw Clifford Stoll in person at a lecture given in front a group of librarians. He animatedly pointed out, with his lecture notes written on his hand, that in the distant future the jobs that people do will still require old-fashioned learning and hands-on experience.

    "If I were around even a hundred years from I now I wouldn't want to visit a dentist who's learned his trade from a CD-ROM," he explained, "I would want a dentist who had hands-on experience at a dental school."

    He talked about how software packages make the outrageous claim that they can "make learning fun," when actual learning takes self-discipline, hard work, and effective human teachers.

    As for me, I love being able to order books from the library online, and have them sent from faraway libraries to the one down the street from my office, but I still sometimes feel a bit cheated that I had the Dewey Decimal System and its card catalog lookup method drilled into my head from an early age, only to have the latter removed from the library and replaced with a row of computers. When our library system first implemented this change, the computers were far more difficult to operate than the alphabetized drawers of the card catalog. Nowadays, with the web-based system, it's much easier to find exactly what I want, but I still sometimes miss the thrill of the hunt, as it were, flipping through cards organized by subject, title, and author, searching for just the right book.

    --
    You are in error. No-one is screaming. Thank you for your cooperation.
    1. Re:Clifford Stoll's two books by Paulrothrock · · Score: 5, Insightful

      A computer is a tool. A well prepared mind can make a computer do amazing things, just like a well prepared mind can make a hammer and chisel do amazing things. However, an unprepared mind will just turn the block of stone into a pile of dust. Let's focus on preparing the minds before giving them all the tools. Like the teacher removing all the fonts from the computer, we need to get people to think about what they're doing, not how it looks or is perceived. Reading, discussion, and experimentation are ways to do this, and while they can be done on a computer, the complexity of the system gets in the way. People learn how to use the computer to prepare their minds, when it should be the other way around.

      --
      I'm in the hole of the broadband donut.
    2. Re:Clifford Stoll's two books by SquadBoy · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I was just thinking about this. Let me tell a long story. I'm a network guy and kind of known as a PC/Server guy. I get asked a lot of questions that take me about 10 minutes with Google to find answers to. Now I'll date myself when I was in debate in High School we used to spend hours at the local Uni digging through their stacks to find information and stuff to build debate cases with. This was both fun and I learned a lot about research. I think this accounts for why I can find answers on the web that some of the kids I work with who never really had to do research without computers can not.

      Kind of like once you learn math without a calculator you can then do amazing things very quickly when given the tool. But if you never learn math without the calculator you are stuck being able to not do any of those really amazing things the tool can help you do.

      --

      Cypherpunks: Civil Liberty Through Complex Mathematics. Those who live by the sword die by the arrow.
    3. Re:Clifford Stoll's two books by kzinti · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I saw Stoll give a similar lecture at the Embedded Systems Conference a few years ago. A one-line summary of his thesis: Don't take computers out of the schools, but don't try to substitute them for real learning. Teach kids to use computers, but also teach them why computers work, how to program them, how to take them apart, how to build one, etc. I couldn't agree more.

      Cliff Stoll is one hell of a good speaker. Bizarre too. He showed up at the ESC with two TV camera crews in tow, trying to interview him. He sat on stage before the talk, writing out his lecture notes on his hands. He had three or four milk-carton crates full of gadgets that he wanted to demonstrate, although I only recall one actually making it out of the box: a radar "speed gun" made out of an old coffee can and some electronics. He wandered all though the audience during his talk, at one point even coming out and taking over one of the TV cameras taping the talk. Although he had notes written all over his hand, he constantly seemed to diverge down new paths as they occurred to him. Oh yes, and then there was the four cartons of milk (or was it chocolate milk?) he drank during the talk. Very entertaining, and despite the apparent chaos of the lecture, he had the audience right in the palm of his hand when he wanted their attention... as at the end, when he talked about computers in schools.

      If you ever get the chance to see this guy talk, don't miss it.

    4. Re:Clifford Stoll's two books by Tony-A · · Score: 2, Insightful

      In fact, even shell scripting skills and knowledge of the unix filesystem are important skills in medicine. So, as others have pointed out, it's not so simple as saying we shouldn't emphasize computer skills.

      Computers are good for automating what you understand. They are not a substitute for that understanding. In fact doing something with computers requires more understanding than without computers to just break even.

      Computers are good for automating things that are tedious, monotonous, and repetitious. This works after you understand just what you are automating (which also defines what you are not automating.

      An accurate summation of inaccurate numbers does not make an accurate sum, regardless of how much snake oil you buy.

    5. Re:Clifford Stoll's two books by ionpro · · Score: 2, Informative

      Yes, because a card catalog is obviously just as good as a computer at cross-referencing information. Think about what you are saying, people! You can learn a lot more on the Internet with the proper technique then you can in a library, simply because information flows faster. 5 years ago, I may have agreed with you. But as a much larger percentage of information goes online, the balance tips more and more favorably to the side of the digital age. If you want to have your kid spent lots of time in a library, great: but don't get upset when he gets left behind by kids who can find everything he found in an entire afternoon in one hour on the Internet.

    6. Re:Clifford Stoll's two books by SquadBoy · · Score: 2

      The bad thing is there was chick who I liked she was geek cute and really fun. I was too much of a dork to do anything about it and then like 2 years later when she had moved halfway across the country I find out that she was into me also and thought I did not like her. Total waste.

      --

      Cypherpunks: Civil Liberty Through Complex Mathematics. Those who live by the sword die by the arrow.
  3. On a scale of 1 to Excellent by Neil+Blender · · Score: 4, Funny

    I rate this book a.....Q

  4. Computers or teachers by Gunnery+Sgt.+Hartman · · Score: 3, Insightful

    What I don't understand is that schools spend thousands and thousands of dollars to upgrade technology, but they still don't have any teachers that are worth a damn or teachers that are severly underpaid. Seems like schools also forget the fact that that computer is hard to use if there is no decent desk to put it on. I've had classes that use desks that were here when the college was founded. There's not enough room on the writing surface for single sheet of paper. WTF?

    --
    [ ]
  5. I'd agree with it by nycsubway · · Score: 2

    Computers were absent from my grade school years, but as the years passed, computers became more pervasive. By college, my major was computer science & engineering. The only things that I learned from computers were how to program and how to use a computer to get things done.

    Computers did not teach me how to interact with other people. They did not teach social or moral skills. They provided a fraction of the education I needed. Computers will never be able to replace the social education that every person needs.

    1. Re:I'd agree with it by Kenja · · Score: 4, Funny
      "Computers did not teach me how to interact with other people. They did not teach social or moral skills. They provided a fraction of the education I needed. Computers will never be able to replace the social education that every person needs."

      You just didn't spend enough time playing Quake.

      --

      "Have you ever thought about just turning off the TV, sitting down with your kids, and hitting them?"
  6. TRS-80 Rules! by filesiteguy · · Score: 3, Informative

    I don't agree that educators for the most part belive blindly in the technology. I do, however, have much experience in this area. My mother and wife are both primary level teachers and have been at the forefront of "education in the classroom" initiaves. All of which failed to one degree or another. I often spent hours helping them setup systems that broke with no support. The only thing I remember as positive is when my 6th grade teacher got two TRS-80 Model I computers back in '79. We were invited to go after school every day and learn BASIC. That started me off.

  7. computer are overrated for education... by pyrrho · · Score: 2, Insightful

    ... in the same way that books are.

    I mean, if you don't know how to read, them thing 're useless.

    --

    -pyrrho

  8. times are changing by TedCheshireAcad · · Score: 5, Funny

    Teachers are just being stubborn. They have to change with the times. Instead of grading a paper "F", grade it "OMFG n00b".

    Instead of grading it "A", grade it "<3".

    When the kids get rowdy, instead of trying to yell over the crowd, just write "STFU kthx" on the board.

    Change with the times, people.

    1. Re:times are changing by happyfrogcow · · Score: 4, Funny

      d00d, u jst m@d3 m3 w@n7 t0 b3c0m3 @ t3ach3r.

    2. Re:times are changing by Jonah+Hex · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Very funny examples, but as with most humor the grain of truth at the center of it is dealing with pain and suffering. In this case it's the suffering felt by the younger who listens to an older spouting slang by rote, and the pain felt by an older who's verbal faux pas kills a conversation like "it's da bomb".

      Don't get me wrong, slang can truly be cross-generational and used in mixed age group situations but the speaker must use it freely and with the knowledge of a "second native tongue" at least. Such a knowledge takes time, living in the language as it were, and also a sense of when it's appropriate and useful to employ such modes as, for example; full slang, slang for effect, slang as accepted common usage, or no slang. While I'd say that teachers have a damn good chance of learning Slang as a Second Language, and may even be able to implement it to good effect in certain classroom situations, most parents and grandparents should take a cue from the endless comedy sketches featuring "them" using slang badly and not bother with anything that they don't pick up naturally.

      Jonah Hex

  9. Grumpy by KnarfO · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Author and submitter sound like they're a bit grumpy over this whole computer fad thing. "Darn kids and their technology! Why, when I was your age, I had to write my reports on *paper*... with a *pencil*!!..."

    C'mon... the only success stories in schools were where the comps were not in the classroom, and weren't networked (how do you print??) sounds fishy to me, and smacks of some serious anti-tech bias, IMHO.

    --


    "Creativity is allowing ones self to make mistakes. Art is knowing which ones to keep" - Scott Adams
    1. Re:Grumpy by PCM2 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Agreed. I think anybody would be a fool to question the value that access to computers has for education.

      On the other hand, computers in the classroom doesn't necessarily sound like a good idea to me. A friend of mine is a teacher at an art college here, where they have invested a ton of money in technology and teaching the latest Web design, 3-D graphics, etc. He says he has a hard time keeping kids' attention in class when every one of them has a computer installed on his or her desk. He'll be trying to give a lecture and they'll be leaning over, giggling at each others screens as they pull up random pages on the Web. And these are *college students*, let alone high school age kids or younger.

      Seems like you're better off having a large computer lab that students can use as a resource on their own time, the same way they do the school library. Or, wirelessly networked laptops on the desks would be fine, too -- just so long as they stay closed until it's time to get to work.

      --
      Breakfast served all day!
  10. wasteful by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful
    >> They don't see is as a full solution to the woes but they see is a big enough part to cut the Arts, Music and any other area that encourages free thinking.

    of course, artists create art whether or not they are in art class. whereas no-one will build the next generation of robot soldiers unless the market has a glut of engineers and scientists to burn through at half-wages.

    b-i-t, t-e-r, & j-a-d-e-d... I'm so pissed... I'm so pissed...

    1. Re:wasteful by gnu-generation-one · · Score: 2

      "of course, artists create art whether or not they are in art class"

      Yeah, it's all to do with copyrights and patents apparently. Otherwise they'd become builders.

  11. If perhaps, people would start ... by burgburgburg · · Score: 3, Informative
    valuing these individuals known as teachers and paying them a decent, livable wage and treating them with the respect you'd "expect" for someone that is educating your damn children, instead of seeing their profession as something any idiot can do (because they have life experience after all) and anyway, they should be doing it for the love of the job and anyway we're already overbudget because of these cool computers and ...

    I'm sure if I hold my breath, it will happen before I pass out and bump my head against the desk. Here I go ....mmmph...mmmprhu .....BAM!

    Owww. Thanks a lot, /.

  12. In fairness... by Otter · · Score: 3, Interesting
    Math education goes back to, who, Euclid? (And various Mayans, Chinese and others -- the point is that there's an extensive history to draw on.)And we're still lurching from one way to teach kids to multiply to another, and then to that it only matters how they feel about 6 times 8, and then back to memorizing tables.

    Meanwhile, personal computers are now on their second generation of students, their capabilities change every year, as does what is needed to know to use them and The Future is all about them. It's not astonishing that teachers haven't quite figured out what to do with them.

  13. um, unstructured ideas? by Knights+who+say+'INT · · Score: 3, Insightful
    "One English teacher could readily tell which of her students essays were conceived on a computer. "They don't link ideas," the teacher said. "They just write one thing, and then they write another one, and they don't seem to see or develop the relationships between them."'


    But you can actually structure your essays better when you can first type out ideas and chunks of sentences, and then restructure until they form a coherent, logical progression.

    Unless you like to handwrite endless drafts, handwritten work would generally be more confuse.

    Now, really, perhaps these are nonlinear times. I have a class with a philosophy professor who keeps on saying that mind is hypertextual, and he`s fascinated with the possibilites of nonlinear argumentation. Not John Negroponte or some hypermedia freak, a 60-years-old Medieval Philosopher scholar whose idea of a fascinating subject is the Summa Teologica.

    I gotta say I learned all my english and all my french on the net (it's not that bad, check my post history), and have generally learned to write better and been more exposed to intellectual, structured debate than I'd ever be without it. Moreover, I've had contact with all these scholars from around the world who research subjects that interested me at one point, and learned about many research areas I didn't even know that existed.

    Of course, I've also seen a lot of freak pr0n, but we were discussing education, weren't we?
    1. Re:um, unstructured ideas? by Bob+Uhl · · Score: 3, Interesting
      But you can actually structure your essays better when you can first type out ideas and chunks of sentences, and then restructure until they form a coherent, logical progression.

      The facts don't bear that out: the end result of computer-editing tends to be rather scattershot. I would argue that this is because coherent arguments start as fully-formed thoughts (in the short term; in the longer term obviously they develop, as one learns). The sad fact of the matter is that most folks don't seem to think well, and computers just give them an easy out.

      Writing drafts by hand forces one to think--it's slow, and painful and spends money (paper's not free). Typing, by contrast, is easy and cheap. There's no incentive to think before jotting down whatever comes to mind. Much of my /. output is proof of this:-)

      Back in college, I finally figured out how to write good papers: I went down to the local pub with a briefcase full of books and paper, spread it all out and started. First I read the books; then I wrote an outline; then I fleshed it out, then I wrote the paper a few times, then I went home an typed the whole thing up in LaTeX, printed it out, proofed it one last time & turned it in. Much beer was drunk and much tobacco sacrificed in my pipe throughout the process... Anyway, I ended up with straight As that year, compared to low Bs, a few Cs and some As.

  14. The problem with computer education. by jellomizer · · Score: 5, Interesting

    The problem with Computer education is that they use computers for every area of studies but they don't teach them how to use the computer as a tool. For Science Class students will use computers to virtually dissect a frog. But when it comes to doing a calculation they will still reach for the paper. Or what happened in college there was a student working on there math homework in the computer lab, they were using the application called Maple (for those who dont know about it it is a fairly powerful math program) now he needed to do some simple arithmetic so he went around asking people for a calculator. Not even thinking about using the calculator that comes with almost every OS on the planet. Or in maple where you just need to to type the formula in and follow with a ;. He was trained to use the computer and Maple just as he was taught but it never occurred for him to use the computer for a problem that wasn't required for class to solve. But because the teacher are so inflexible about computer they don't teach the students to use the computers as a tool. They just use them as a way to sit down and grade papers.

    --
    If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
  15. Blame people, not computers by taradfong · · Score: 4, Insightful

    You need good people teaching good things to good people to get good results. We barely pay the teachers, and so we scare away lots of good people from teaching. Our curriculums are weak and far away from reality. We raise our kids without a parent at home using the TV/computer as a surrogate and feed them non-stop hyperactivity chow, and so they are more or less unteachable.

    Computers won't fix this situation. Maybe if we fixed the other 3 problems, they would make a good situation better.

    --
    Does it hurt to hear them lying? Was this the only world you had?
    1. Re:Blame people, not computers by ConceptJunkie · · Score: 2

      Just the pay is enough. I'd love to be a teacher (and I know I'm good at it too after lots of positive dfeedback from volunteer work with kids and having 4 kids of my own who are bright, inquistive and full of neat ideas), but I'd have to forgo about 2/3 of my salary to do so, and probably have to put up with a bureaucracy that would drive me postal inside a month.

      The high point of my week is often spending an hour and a quarter with a classroom full of eager 2nd graders talking about faith and religion. I know I could do even better with topics like science, math and (gasp!) computer science, topics actually related to my degree and work experience.

      --
      You are in a maze of twisty little passages, all alike.
  16. Speak For Yourself. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting



    When I was 7, I lucked out. My elementary school was one of the first in the state to have computers for students to use in the library. This was, eh, about 1980-81 or so. Apple ][s, to be exact. Three of them. They were available for students to use both during and after school.

    Within a few weeks of their being installed, the demand was high enough that the librarians had to set up a list where you had to reserve blocks of time in advance. On monday mornings, I used to go to the library, and allocate time every day afterschool for that week.

    By the time I was in 4th & 5th grade, I used to stay after school so long the custodians would have to come and kick me out.

    Once I got to college, I decided I wanted to be a Unix administrator. My choice of career pretty much guarantees a salary well above the national average, and even above the majority of IT-related positions. Had I never been able to sit around and hack Lemonade to paint the sky red on Wednesdays, or hack Swords & Sorcery so that I was immortal, I would have never learned how to code, how to be creative, think logically, or be involved with computers in any form.

    At every step of the way, there were computers in every school I went to. By the time I was in junior high, I was writing Risk/Empire'ish stuff. It taught me how to think strategically, and introduced me to languages other than BASIC. Things snowballed from there. Fast forward 15 years. ..Unless i'm seeing things, I've got a house, a wife, and a good career. Anyone care to explain to how my school failed me?

    Cheers,
    Bowie J. Poag
    Yes, that one.

  17. part of my thesis by b17bmbr · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I am finishing a masters in Ed. (Computers and Ed. Technology) and this book was a big part of my thesis. I have been involved in my school's technology for years. This book should be required reading for every princpal and teacher. Sadly, he exposes the "education industrial complex" (paraphrasing Eisenhower) and highlights many problems with our education system. I could go on, but that's my thesis. Schools need to go back to the basics, readin', writin', 'rithmetic. Literacy and critical thinking should be the goals of school, and if the kids never even touch a computer in school, they won't miss a thing. Though I do believe there should be a technology component, where kids do learn basic computer skills.

    I might also suggest Jane Healy's "Failure to Connect" and Clifford Stoll's "Silicon Snake Oil". Please take it from me, I am a high school history teacher, and I see this problem as wide scale.

    --
    My problem? I was perfectly gruntled, until some numbnuts came by and dissed me.
    1. Re:part of my thesis by Techguy666 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I've read Jane Healy's book. While I generally agree with the sentiments, I found her book far too pessimistic and her statements far too sweeping. I'm an IT Curriculum Specialist for a K-12 school. My job is to critically assess technology and assist teachers in integrating the more useful technologies into our curriculum.

      We've established a laptop program that has been quite successful. The girls (it's a girls' school) learn the traditional curriculum, enhanced with laptops, a knowledge management system, and other technological tools.

      The main tricks are not to let technology dictate the curriculum and not to simply layer technology on top of existing curriculum. When you see an example of poor technology use in a classroom, it's often because some administrator decided that a given technology is cool looking and dumped it into a school for photo ops. When you see technology actually impeding learning, it's because a new technology was deemed "important" and it was dumped into the lap of an untrained teacher using a lesson plan he or she wrote years ago. If that teacher tries teaching the same lesson with extra doodads, the instructional time increases, effective learning time decreases, and technical problems totally draw attention away from the point of the lesson.

      Here's a little one page Statement of Philosophy I give to teachers who are new to our school:

      EVERYTHING YOU NEED TO KNOW ABOUT A SCHOOL LAPTOP PROGRAM

      Basic Assumption:

      1. Laptops facilitate in two areas, processing information & sharing information

      Paradigm Assumptions:

      1. Laptops need to be approached as a "participatory" (Marshall McLuhan) or "cool" (Don Tapscott) medium, not a technological one

      2. Collaboration & group work is highly valued - otherwise, why use networked computers?

      3. The laptop project should encourage presentation & sharing. Otherwise, why use laptops instead of desktop computers or even paper & pen?

      4. "Math thoughts do not occur just in math class". Integrated learning is important and needs to be reflected in how technology is used

      5. Laptops should be used only when appropriate

      6. A laptop program should allow laptops to be used not only for academic activities, but also for social activities. The Internet was built on the former premise, but innovation came from the latter

      7. It's difficult to predict the future. Fortunately, shaping the future is much easier

      Implementation Considerations:

      1. Portable laptops, in theory, will allow anytime, anywhere style of investigation - not only within the school but outside as well

      2. Information (raw input & finished output) must be easily accessible & feedback must be immediate

      3. The needs of students & teachers drive software implementation design - the technology must be invisible (at least, for the initial laptop grade)

      4. Within the same software program, teacher needs and student needs are different

      5. Complexity increases with each additional piece of hardware or software beyond what is "standard" in a laptop. Every modification or addition can crash a computer.

      6. There are novice users and expert users and each approaches technology differently

      If every individual in a school follows the spirit of this guide, and they have a handy-dandy jack-of-all-trades like me to assist, any technology use can't help but be at least a neutral, if not entirely positive, experience in that school.

    2. Re:part of my thesis by 0x0d0a · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Schools need to go back to the basics, readin', writin', 'rithmetic. Literacy and critical thinking should be the goals of school, and if the kids never even touch a computer in school, they won't miss a thing.

      While I agree with some of what you've written, a few things here set me off.

      I agree with reading. Students need to read more. The problem is that I have universally hated everything that schools have made me read. I even have a couple of controls -- I read Catch-22 on my own before I was made to read it, and *loved* it. I hated it when I had to go through and keep a log, writing down metaphors and literary devices used. My father let me read his Steinbeck collection. I adored Steinbeck without exception...but when we read Grapes of Wrath, I hated it. I think that a better move would be to install in students an enjoyment of reading. Elementary school is, I think, an important time to encourage students to read. Put books that they'll enjoy on the shelves. Work with local government to ensure that all students get city public library cards granted them at school. Separate reading from literary analysis -- I am not a tremendous fan of literary analysis, but I do think that reading has tremendous benefits to a wide range of people. Let people read The Lord of the Rings or Crime and Punishment without being forced to analyze every line, and I think that more people will have a long-term love of reading instilled.

      As for writing...I agree, but I think that writing requirements of today are significantly different from the writing of just a couple of decades ago. I think that quality of handwriting is much less of an issue, the ability to type is more important, and the ability to quickly write grammatically correct phrases is important (for real-time typing communication).

      I think that the need to know arithmetic has gone down a bit. Learning one's times tables is a useful thing to have around, and is still critical. However, a lot of things that used to be done in the head are generally done on a computing device. Adding up long series of numbers quickly mentally isn't a very useful skill any more, since someone doing so is going to have a calculator. This is not without prescedent -- schools no longer teach how to, say, find a square root by hand, though that was at one point a pretty fundamental operation to know how to do by hand. Calculators have just become too common.

      I agree absolutely with critical thinking. I had a speech class in high school that included analysis of propaganda that I think should be standard to teach folks that have to live in today's well-marketed world. having a required legal class might also be a good idea -- at the least, we are governed by law, and it doesn't hurt to have a good understanding of what it allows. It also provides a good critical thinking foundation.

  18. Computers in the Classroom by TheSimon · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Coming from a Math/Science magnet school where the administration believed the school itself was responsible for the success of it's students, this definately hits home. Over the years, the school made it a point to put a computer lab in every classroom. They seemed to think that if there was a computer to use, it would make everything better.

    So, they blindly added hundreds of donated, underpowered PCs to our network. More often than not, they were used for downloading pr0n, playing games and cheating on tests and homework. Not only did they take up valuable classroom space (where new desks and books would do much more good), they proved to be more of a hassle and a distraction to both teachers and students. (Especially those few students responsible for maintaining the network)

    Teachers were required to post grades using one of two online grading services. More often than not, the teachers complained about the hassle and speed of a P90 with 16MB running NT4 than praising the marginal advantage of accessing grades from home.

    Without looking into actually securing the network, the school let loose a swarm of worms and virii. The solution, "If you want to bring your own work in on a floppy, it must be run through NAV by the computer lab teacher." I guess they only travel through word docs on floppies...

    Eventually, they cut a deal with some company to install TVs in every room in exchange for advertising time in the morning. The company would broadcast a short spot of news, play some advertisements and generally just push the product of the moment in the first 10 minutes of every day.

    Anyway, I'd love to rant some more about the joys and "success" of having computers in the classroom, but there's just to much to list.

  19. Computers didn't help me by OglinTatas · · Score: 5, Funny

    Personal anecdote here: way back when I was in high school, the PTA scraped together some money to buy a dozen Apple II computers for an after school computer club. The following year they were incorporated into a computer lab, and a course was offered as an elective for us nerdy kids, but computing wasn't part of the general curriculum.
    Anyway, for my final project in that course, I wrote a program that could take a term paper draft and size requirements as input, and then it would produce an expanded draft to meet those requirements by fiddling with margins, word and line spacing, and finally by inserting nonsense phrases if necessary.
    I submitted the source code, a sample input (3 1/2 pages) and the output, a 5 page English paper (which had been graded "A")
    The teacher gave me an "F" on principle, or maybe because I didn't properly comment the code.
    I even used that program to expand this one-line post.

  20. "Making learning fun" by Beryllium+Sphere(tm) · · Score: 5, Insightful

    >He talked about how software packages make the outrageous claim that they can "make learning fun," when actual learning takes self-discipline, hard work, and effective human teachers.

    Cats and dogs can't survive on instinct alone. Both need to have learned hunting skills. How do they acquire them? They play.

    Play is how mammals learn. They expend enormous energy in play. If play weren't a vital function then non-playing creatures would have taken over the world through sheer efficiency.

    "Self-discipline, hard work, and effective human teachers" could be a description of what happens when humans "play" soccer.

    Learning *is* fun, inherently. We're programmed for it. Any healthy young child is constantly exploring, taking things apart, and asking "why?".

    The great mystery of our educational system is how it has made learning seem like a chore.

    1. Re:"Making learning fun" by Neil+Watson · · Score: 4, Insightful
      The great mystery of our educational system is how it has made learning seem like a chore.

      The minute you tell me I have to learn something and, give a deadline; it becomes a chore.

    2. Re:"Making learning fun" by dollargonzo · · Score: 2, Insightful

      this is quite true if you expect humans to have to relearn everything every generation. however, that is not the case. education provides a way to teach kids what has been discovered by other people over that last few thousand years.

      at this point in the history of human intellectual development, it is impossible for any one human to learn every discipline in detail.

      so, the process is expediated by requiring self-discipline, hard work and effective human teachers." even WITH such things, education of most humans takes about 20 years to become a professional.

      do you honestly think that a child could learn that amount of knowledge in less time on his own? i doubt it.

      take a look at "fuzzy math" programs and also at the website "mathematically correct" which opposes fuzzy math programs. fuzz math proponents believe, just like you do, that learning should be fun and kids should explore and discover everything for themselves. the math scores for schools that utilize such programs plummets. the idea might be theoretically plausible, but it has a fundamental flaw: it assumes that kids could learn everything they need to knwo to be productive professionals on their own in virtually the same amount of time.

      --
      BSD is for people who love UNIX. Linux is for those who hate Microsoft.
    3. Re:"Making learning fun" by sean.geek.nz · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The "play is how we learning, learning is fun" thing has a lot going for it. BUT: The reason we go to school is to learn things that DON'T come naturally. The school curriculum doesn't teach kids how to talk, or recognize faces, or interact socially. That's not because those skills are easy (they're bloody hard), but because those are skills that we have evolved we learn naturally.. Schools do have a hell of a time trying to teach things like basic statistics, and basic physics, because those do NOT come naturally. We have natural, evolved heuristics for physics and probability that are designed for a primate living on the savannah and just don't cut it in the modern world, and kids have to UNLEARN their basic intuitions about those things. You can make learning those things fun, but it takes a lot of work and skill to do so. Sean

  21. Distance learning by Anonymous+Custard · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Distance learning, offshore development, outsourcing, everything; can all be traced to a neglected education system in the U.S.

    We don't pay our teachers much, so most of our intelligent people are going on to other jobs where their brains get them more money. Teaching could became a coveted profession like being a Doctor or a Lawyer.

    But instead, we're paying our teachers low wages, and chipping away at our long standing scientific advantage over the rest of the world.

    Who needs to pay for this? Every citizen, but those with more must contribute more. The problem is that well-off citizens can just send their own kids to private school -- screw the rest of the kids -- and then vote at the school district meetings for minimal budgets, so their school taxes go down. In some districts, housing and school taxes are so expensive that by buying a house there you are essentially paying for private school for yuor kids, and poor people cannot afford to get into that community.

    Vouchers are not the answer, as all they do is take money away from the school that need it the most, and give it to schools that are already rich enough to provide a good education. It just serves to further separate the rich from the poor.

    What we need is for washington to put its foot down and say "Enough!"

    Listen, those of you who've made it big in America: It's not just your own hard work that got you where you are in life, it's your education, your community, your country, and your fellow citizens that made this environment that allowed you to have a chance at all. So stop whining and help out your fellow man; pay 1% more in taxes, so that poor kids can go to better schools, and lead better lives. Heck, you'll probably make up the lost taxes in the money you save by not being robbed or carjacked by some kid who dropped out of his drug-laden junior high school to become a thief.

    I'm spent.

    1. Re:Distance learning by moosemoose · · Score: 3, Interesting
      get real. money has absolutely zilch to do with education. I send my children to private school. I spend approximately $6,000 per year per child. The public school system in California, OTOH, spends approximately $9,300 per student. effectively, the fact that i do not send my children to public school should free up another $18,600 for those that do.

      the public schools in my district have higher paid teachers and vastly superior facilities (i mean its not even close) compared to the private school. in spite of the fact that the private school spends 2/3rds of the public school (per student) the private school produces students that consistantly score 2 grade levels above the national average in reading and math on the standford 9 tests. OTOH, 80% of california public schools fail to achieve the national average for the grade level they are teaching and the public schools in my district score in the botton 25% of all california schools.

      the bottom line? it's the parents and not the schools or the money put into schools that insure academic achievment. the dictionary is used in my home almost daily. reading, math and thinking are part of our daily home life and probably part of the daily home life of the other parents sending their children to the private school. NO amount of funding will produce a level of academic achievment which will come close to that of students whose parents really really really give a shit about education. talking about educational funding is a lot like arguing about the size of the firehose while the orphanage burns. it completely ignores the real problem. the educational crisis is a cultural problem, not an economic problem.

      --
      the real evil is not what people think - its how people think
  22. Rating system by mdielmann · · Score: 3, Funny

    I give an instant 9/10 to any book that puts politician and "flickering mind" in the same sentence.

    --
    Sure I'm paranoid, but am I paranoid enough?
  23. I attended a "alternative" high school for a bit. by karmatic · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I attended a "alternative" high school for a bit, and nearly everything was computerized. The materials were done over NovaNet, and specifically say "These are to be used for reference, and not as a replacement for the book".

    The books were not available, and we were quite literally set up to fail. It was impossible to even pass without taking tons of notes (I have my library barcode number from when I was 5, all my credit cards, my blockbuster card, and discount card #s memorized, so it's not my memorization skills at fault). This was the school for failures, too.

    As for why I was there, a bad case of ADHD - I literally couldn't pass my classes. It was not because of tests, but because I couldn't focus long enough to finish the homework.

  24. This is incredibly stupid. by nathan+s · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Granted, I have not read this book myself.

    However, the problem isn't that we have computers in schools or *gasp* networked computers.

    The problem is simply that most educators are (and I speak by experience both from an academic and a tech-support perspective, everything from kindergarten to grad school to a retail computer store that sold consulting and support to schools) incapable of properly instructing people to use computers.

    Face it. I'd venture to say that most educators (and almost certainly most politicians) have _not_ grown up with computers, but are rather attempting to synthesize computer technology into their policies and curricula. This is a good thing, but they simply don't have the _feel_ of it; this is something that comes with vast amounts of experience with computer technology.

    Handwriting essays? Give me a break; I wrote my grade-school essays on IBM XTs and printed them out on dot matrix printers whenever allowed. When it wasn't allowed, I wrote them on the XT and then copied them onto paper after they're done.

    I would venture to say that few things suck harder than drafting essays by hand. Don't like a paragraph? You're screwed - rewrite. Don't like that paragraph? You're screwed again - rewrite. Not to mention that I can type ~100wpm, and I can only handwrite about...I dunno, 30-40wpm if that. Better, my hands aren't being contorted around some pen, but rather drifting in a pseudo-natural position above a keyboard. This hurts so much less, and I can write longer without needing to take a break while being more productive. I fail to see a problem.

    A lot of people are scared of technology, but the US education system has far bigger problems (lack of funding, lack of instructors, etc) that are to blame for poor academic performance.

    To add a last little rant, the network thing is idiotic. The future, and the past, have always been about networks. You're teaching your students programming, but they don't have any idea of how to do network programming? You're teaching them how to use computers, but god forbid they learn any of the _important_ facets of network use, like basic networking hygeine (virus scanners, firewall use, maybe how to do spam filtering) that will help to slow down future network chokage.

    Ugh. I just find myself having a somewhat visceral reaction to this, considering that I literally grew up with computers (since I was 5) and _in spite of_ crappy education systems, I find myself in possession of a master's degree and a high-tech, managerial job.

    Pardon any organizational or grammatical flaws; this is off the top of my head.

  25. Seen in real life by Ra5pu7in · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I have watched my children being taught with computers in the classroom, computers in a separated "lab", and computers at home. Much of what the author mentions is very real to me.

    The amount of time spent changing font types, font sizes, paragraph alignment, etc. is added time they could have avoided. Typing speed is a severe limiter for a long report -- and "teacher says it has to be typed/printed". Spell-check and grammar checks give an impression that they don't need to check their own work. I end up reviewing and marking the errors to make them correct them.

    The educational software that they found so fun when they were younger fit into two categories - something they already knew and was easy OR something they hadn't learned yet and had to ask for help with. There was no actual instruction on HOW to do things - just little games using the skills.

    ========

    Perhaps the scariest offshoot of this is how computers and software are implemented everywhere else (businesses and government). I've seen people spend hours working on a document that should have taken them 20 minutes. I've seen people who don't bother knowing how to speak or spell because the word-processor will do it for them. I work with people who claim the computer makes them more productive -- when I also know they spend more than 50% of their day online surfing sites completely unrelated to their job and get less done in the 50% they actually do work.

    I'm not a Luddite by any means - I use my computers for maximizing my productivity. I even try to teach my children how to avoid the pitfalls by making them hand-write their rough drafts, research from books, and have a preset format that is used for all documents.

    --
    I was taking one day at a time, but then several days got together and ambushed me. (from a Rhymes with Orange comic)
    1. Re:Seen in real life by Suidae · · Score: 2, Funny

      when I also know they spend more than 50% of their day online surfing sites completely unrelated to their job and get less done in the 50% they actually do work

      Sometimes I have that problem. just can't stay off the net some days.

      I tried doing my work with paper and pen once, but the HammerMill platform just wouldn't compile my code properly.

  26. The problem isn't computers by BoneFlower · · Score: 2, Interesting

    ITs how they are used. If you throw a computer in front of someone and expect them to learn, well, they are fucked.

    If they are treated as one of many tools in an educators toolbox, that would be very good. In high school chemistry class, we got to do some experiments on some old Apple II's that the school couldn't afford the expense or safety risk to do. Those are things that without those computers, we simply wouldn't have been able to do more than just read about, but with them, we got to do the experiments and see what happens. Perhaps not as good as doing the experiments with actual chemicals, but a hell of a lot better than just reading.

  27. b-i-t, t-e-r, & j-a-d-e-d... I'm so pissed... by F34nor · · Score: 2, Funny

    Well then just read Bob the Angry Flower. you may still be bitter and pissed when your done but at least you will know not to try to escape Ur-Quan space in a Vux Intruder.

  28. No credible results in 20 years... by phkamp · · Score: 4, Insightful

    In the 20 years I have followed computers as educational tools, I have yet to see a single credible (ie: not vendor paid) study which showed a benefit from using computers to teach normal kids normal subjects.

    Once we get into special areas, things change.

    For instance there have been many studies which show huge benefits to below average kids, where the computer can be used to implement repetitive teaching techniques.

    Similar positive results have been documented for fringe topics and above average students.

    Most of these fringe areas can be reduced to the simple phenomena of the computer being used to make up for a teacher shortage. None of the studies I have seen argues that the results are different from what would have happened if sufficient teachers where available to implement the same amount of teaching.

    But still not one single study have shown a consistent, tangible benefit for normal kids in the normal basic subjects {$native_language, math, science}

    Many studies and reports have pointed out tangible damage.

    Considering how much money has been spent, that is a pretty disturbing scientific basis.

    Anectodal evidence is distributed slightly different: All the good news is about things which are going to happen. Once the computer have been rolled in, we practically never hear good news.

    Combine this situation with the recent study out of Chicago which documented that for each hour of television toddlers watched per day, they had 10% higher risk of ADD at age 7, and we have a really disturbing situation at our hands.

    Poul-Henning

    PS: And as somebody who is old enough to have written a lot of text on a type-writer, I can personally attest that it makes you think a lot more about the text before you write.

    --
    Poul-Henning Kamp -- FreeBSD since before it was called that...
  29. Re:AC load by Russ+Nelson · · Score: 2, Insightful

    All Teachers are always paid a livable AND decent wage, everywhere.

    That is as obviously false as your assertion that "Teachers are not paid a decent wage." You should have failed Logical Analysis. Instead, here you are, a voting adult. Please, God, spare me from living in a democracy! Give me our republic back!

    --
    Don't piss off The Angry Economist
  30. What is the state of education? by erroneus · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I haven't been actively involved in the education system for a while but I can agree with the reviewer's summary of the book author's findings... at least in spirit.

    Someone has cited they had a difference of opinion with educating professionals in that computer skills are a primary need versus science and math. I feel similar to this slashdotter except that I feel stronger language skills are needed primarily in our education system.

    If nothing else indicates it to me, it's all the people around me who have difficulty forming good sentences... and in fact, as another slashdotter related, an English teacher was able to tell if a writing was written on a computer rather than on paper based on style and [lack of] structure. I think it's a tremendous weakness we are developing on a national level.

    Consider that for most humans, they language they speak is also the language of their thoughts. Their thoughts are encoded by their native language... mostly. If their coding skills are weak, then it seems natural to understand that their thinking skills will be similarly limited. A lack of language skills may very well link to a lack of many other skills which are needed in day to day life.

    While I cannot deny that math and science skills are required for more advanced formations of the mind, but a stronger basis in language should be imparted than is already. The computer (as understood by lay people) isn't a thinking machine and isn't a teaching machine and certainly not yet a learning machine. I believe, however, that many people believe to the contrary.

    I see it as a communications medium first and foremost and I think that's exactly how it should be used in our schools. I think blogs should be institutionalized and even graded and commented on by our teachers. If it were an on-going, ungraded process, it could prove to be invaluable for developing language skills... which is the encoding for most people's minds.

  31. Why our K-12 education system suffers by dokebi · · Score: 2, Redundant

    The material that a K-12 student has to learn hasn't changed much in 50 years. Material K-9 students learn (reading, writing, and math) hasn't changed probably in a century. Chances are that a 10 year old text book on European history, physics, English, or Math is probably still good today.

    But teaching the same stuff to kids year after year doesn't make someone a "Leader in Education". In order to be a Leader (heads of education departments at the local and national level) one must have "Vision". And of course this Vision doesn't come from updating history or science texts, or finding better ways to teach kids critical thinking. Leaders have to come up with "Visionary" ideas, like Computer in Every Classroom, or Laptop for Every Pupil, or Creation Science, and every other fad/scheme that garners broad *political* support.

    Our K-12 system suffers because politicians are running the system.

    --
    In Soviet Russia, articles before post read *you*!
  32. That would be great if kids could do that by MSDos-486 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    these days you don't have Apple ][s in the classroom. you have wintels and hacking stuff is considerd a suspendable offence. Not to mention the first programing class in my school is offered in high school.

  33. EDUCATION IS NOT SCHOOL. by LionKimbro · · Score: 4, Interesting
    Yesterday, I learned all about Crypto from Wikipedia. I learned about:

    • block vs. stream cyphers
    • symmetric key cryptography and public key crpytography
    • diffusion
    • about the use of of Crypto in the US Civil War.
    • Claude Shannon


    Because of this, I am likely to make better decisions about cryptography. I will not confuse a stream cypher with a one time pad.

    Now:

    • Who are my teachers?
    • Did technology help them teach me something?
    • Did open-source help?


    More and more, my education is coming from the Internet.

    I believe we need to rethink the whole concept of school, and what it is for.
    1. Re:EDUCATION IS NOT SCHOOL. by Macgrrl · · Score: 2, Interesting

      But school can be a useful place to prod education along.

      In an ideal world, education would start long before school - after all, you learn to speak before school, and many children start to learn how to read. Schools are an ideal time and place to teach children how to learn in a structured manner. It should be giving them the framework to find their own answers, and more importantly how to frame their own questions.

      --
      Sara
      Designer, Gamer, Macgrrl in an XP World
    2. Re:EDUCATION IS NOT SCHOOL. by bob_jenkins · · Score: 2, Interesting
      For most kindergarteners, school and education are and should be about:
      • reading
      • getting along with classmates
      • drawing pictures
      • playing soccer
      • unorganized recess
      • doing arithmetic in your head

      And if the kids would prefer not to do these things, they have to be required to do it. They're hard skills that can only be gained by practice. As near as I can tell, a computer won't help with any of them. Maybe after they have these skills a computer would be useful.
  34. Not Technology - Academia by Alzheimers · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The problem isn't the computers or other technologies which are invading our schools. It's the environment of Academia, where bad teachers can't be punished, good teachers can't be rewarded, and there's no incentive beyond getting their students to get at least 800 on their SATs. Don't even get started on school boards, PTAs, and other obsticles to education. The rot is in the roots, and there's no saving this tree except to cut them out and replant.

    I read a theory once which I believe to be the best idea to ever fix this system. Don't give teachers raises. Instead, upon entry into the work force each of their students would be tithed 1%-2% of their pretax salary, pooled together to then be divided equally among their old teachers. Theoretically, the better the teacher's job is done, the better their students will be paid, and thus the better teachers will be rewarded appropriately.

  35. Missing solutions by UnknowingFool · · Score: 2, Informative
    I would agree with author that too much emphasis has been placed on the "answer". First it was class size. Now many think that computers are the answer. The current administration seems to think it's all about standardized testing. Some say school vouchers are the solution.

    The problem is that many want a black and white solution to gray problems. The problems facing todays educators cannot be solved with one solution. A few years back both the Wall Street Journal and 60 Minutes looked at one of the best public schools systems in the nation: The Department of Defense schools for military families.

    At first, you would think that they would be one of the worst performers. The students are uprooted every few years as their parents are transferred. A majority of the students come from families that live just above the poverty line.

    But the students rank among the best in the nations when it comes to test scores. The gap between minority and white students is almost non-existant with a high percentage of the students being minorities. Eighty percent of students go to college.

    How do they do it? Some answers given:

    More money is spent per student than in most public schools. Parents are heavily invovled with the education. Discipline is almost never a problem. A higher percentage of teachers have masters than most other schools. All these factors intertwine.

    --
    Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
  36. The neglected Fourth 'R'... by Cerebus · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Rhetoric.

    The benefit of a classical education.

    --
    -- Cerebus
  37. Teaching computers to children by Brandybuck · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I have actually taught computers to children. There are two roads to take, all others lead to the mistakes the book uncovers.

    First, use the computer as the tool it is meant to be. Use it instead of a typewriter, for example. Nothing beats a computer for teaching children how to type. It's also good for administering automatic rote quizzes. Et cetera.

    Oh, and as an information tool. It shouldn't replace actual books and encyclopedias, but it makes a great adjunct reference tool. But it's use in this area needs to be monitored, or it becomes merely another "glass teat". (you don't teach kids how to multiply by giving them a calculator, so why teach them how to research by giving them the web?)

    Second, use it to teach computer science. As in programming. Logo is a great learning language. Children will learn algorithms and logical thinking. For older (or brighter) students you can use a "real" high level language like Java, Python or Ruby. Or set up a small LAN to learn about networks. Or learn HTML, CSS, and ECMAscript. The trick here is that you're teaching about the computer, instead of through the computer. Of course, this requires considerable knowledge on part of the teacher.

    --
    Don't blame me, I didn't vote for either of them!
  38. The Public School System Is Working Perfectly by Bob_Robertson · · Score: 2, Informative

    It's simply absurd to suggest that your typical educator or politician blindly believes that computers are the solution to America's education woes.

    You discount the real reason for public school: Dumbing down the general populous to make obedient factory workers and soldiers.

    Don't take my word for it, read the works of those people who founded the forced public schools.

    I can whole heartedly recommend the works of New York State Teacher of the Year John Taylor Gatto.

    The public school system in America is working perfect for what it was designed to do.

    Bob-

    --
    The Ludwig von Mises Institute. The reasoning individuals economics