Microsoft Releases WTL To SourceForge

prostoalex writes "Microsoft's WTL (Windows Template Library) toolkit source code has been released to SourceForge.net [also part of OSDN, like Slashdot.] InternetNews explains that the toolkit allows a Windows developer to create quick GUIs in C++. According to the project page, WTL extends ATL (Active Template Library) and provides a set of classes for controls, dialogs, frame windows, GDI objects, and more. WTL is licensed under CPL, which is the license Microsoft chose for the SourceForge release of the WiX installer."

Comments

Interesting Observation

[RucasRiot]

Microsoft denounces OS yet they contribute... Odd.

Re:Interesting Observation

[LBArrettAnderson]

they may have opened the source, but it is not anywhere near what you OSS developers like.

they will almost certainly NOT accept source from other people; (although they may take suggestions, i'm sure).

the purpose of this is not to make their product better by allowing the community to help, but rather to allow people to customize their own toolkits or to at least better understand what they're using.

Re:Interesting Observation

[lkaos]

they will almost certainly NOT accept source from other people; (although they may take suggestions, i'm sure).

That doesn't matter. It's out there now. You are free to take it, re-release it as OpenWTL, and make all the changes you want. This is the beauty of Open Source. The community now has equal say in the future of this code as Microsoft does.

If they never touched this project again, that would be fine. All they're obligated to do is release the code once. As long as they keep releasing their changes, they are doing well.

Open Source works because people contribute what they want/need. That's all Microsoft has to do to be a good member of the community (yes, Microsoft *can* become a good member of the community).

In fact, I'll go as far as this, Microsoft has submitted to codebases to the community now. How many people can stand up here and claim to have submitted more than Microsoft has? In many ways, Microsoft is a better member of the community than a lot of people reading this right now.

Kind of crazy eh?

Re:Interesting Observation

[CaptainFrito]

Well, for me, I'm sick of dumbing down my own products because of the predominance of their flawed systems. Yeah, okay, we've all heard it before. So what. We hear of murder and robbery and rape everyday too. Doesn't mean it shouldn't be spoken of each time.

Microsoft gets what it deserves. They are sneaky and underhanded.There is nothing about there actions that should be seen as anything but a cleverly veiled continuation of their need to dominate the world. Is that extreme? Probably -- maybe -- but the true danger is underestimating people like this. And if you don't think that people with the kind of money that these people have -- personally and corporately -- does not influence everything you do, then you have not yet reached adulthood.

Who knows why they are making this particular move. Maybe OSS coders are the only ones cheaper than subcontinent Asians. Maybe they don't want to have to buy out the next GUI design company. One thing's for sure though: This latest move is but another tactic in a blizzard of tactics supporting a neverchanging strategy. It's pure sleight of hand. It never pays to underestimate your foe. And it never hurts to overestimate them.

Momma always said, "never trust anyone that says 'Trust me.'"

Re:Interesting Observation

[justin_speers]

I can't let this post slide, insightful???

But remember, after years of dealing with what we feel is a horrible interface and being strongarmed into this and that, and let down by focus on money and not product, we have a very strong right to be skeptical about anything that Microsoft does.

Common misconception amongst everyone in the open source movement, or just anti-MS zealots in general. If Microsoft is focused on making money, they are focused on their products. They cannot, at gunpoint, force consumers to purchase their products. In order to make money, they must provide a product that appeals to the largest number of people possible. That is focusing on the product. While it may not be technically superior or as stable as other OS's (Linux, Mac OS X, name it), it still does what most people want while the other operating systems don't. That is why those OS's don't have the market share. While I think Linux's technical superiority will allow it to catch up, to say Microsoft is blatantly trying to create a crappy product in order to make more money is, at best, bizarre logic.

To this point in Microsoft's history, they have done NOTHING that I can think of out of the kindness of their hearts.

What exactly are you talking about? Are they supposed to buy everyone a teddy bear?

Microsoft made computing mainstream and gives most consumers exactly what they want. Isn't that kind enough? They're a business, what else are they supposed to do? If they weren't providing a benefit of some kind to people, they would not make money, and therefore would not exist.

Everything can be written up as enough to get by with as much money as they can take from customers and carry to the bank.

And still customers HAVE THAT OPTION. No one is threatening them at gunpoint. They are voluntarily handing over their money, Bill Gates is not mugging them.

A little too much MS bashing? Sure. A lot of misfounded MS bashing? Yup.

Couldn't agree more.

Only on /. can Microsoft contribute a product to sourceforge and be bashed for it. As long as Bill Gates isn't using all of his money to buy all the slashdot virgins blowjobs from Carmen Electra, they can't do anything right.

Re:Interesting Observation

[slycer9]

If he isn't buying /.'ers blowjobs from Carmen Elektra, who IS he buying them for?

Does this mean I should have BOUGHT WindowsXP???

Re:Interesting Observation

[gbjbaanb]

But remember, after years of dealing with what we feel is a horrible interface

Yeah, but Microsoft had nothing to do with Gnome. :)

So, how long until...

[Anonymous Coward]

Microsoft buys OSDN (and Sourceforge, Slashdot, etc)?

Re:So, how long until...

[Paul d'Aoust]

I think it's bizarre myself. They're kinda throwing away their advertising money by buying spots on OSDN. Let's see, we've got four different groups here:

1. Open source enthusiasts and developers, who are very dedicated to Linux or FreeBSD or what-have-you
2. Linux zealots who are fanatically dedicated to Linux
3. Platform-agnostic IT folks who use Linux, Windows, Mac OS, or maybe even DOS depending on what works best for them
4. Tech-heads who come here for information and opinion on the world of science and technology

I think that (correct me if I'm wrong) the vast majority of Slashdot readers and posters fall into the first two categories. And they're already baptised members of the open-source community, so they're not giving up the faith. The rest, who fall into the last two categories, certainly have an open mind towards Linux and are usually pretty sceptical of advertising in general.

Hurry up and post, pundits

[drinkypoo]

I can't wait to find out how microsoft is screwing me today (tm).

Uh-oh

[agent dero]

Guys, i'm scared, really scared.

I mean, do I download it? Do I use it? Do I trust it?

All of a sudden nothing makes sense anymore!

Glad to see MS releasing so much code

[Anonymous Coward]

First Windows 2000, now this.

What now, Slashdot?

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh the angst! Thousands of geeks struggle valiantly for a way to spin this so as to make Microsoft's release of this software for free look bad... hmmm... criticize the license terms? chant "embrace and extend"?

Oh, fuck it.

"Bill gate is a poopyhead, neener neener neener!"

This is great news

[timecop]

WTL, which is basically a one-person project at microsoft, doesn't really get enough attention of developers.
It's a great lightweight wrapper around Win32 API, does not depend on any external DLLs (like MFC etc).
The only problem with WTL, up to including this release, is that there is absolutely no documentation - there
are a few projects documenting WTL3.0 or older exist, but they are not maintained anymore. Hopefully once this
project is on sourceforge, people will be fixing bugs *and* writing documentation. I'm very looking forward
to this.

WTL Rocks

[wandazulu]

The WTL proves that there are some *very* good people at MS: They basically took MFC and redesigned it around templates and the STL; no MFC runtime dlls and even VC6 produces tiny exes that run wickedly fast. They even wrote a VC6/7 addin so you can use the project wizard to create a boilerplate project as a starting point. And to top it off, the two developers were (are?) very active on the ATL mailing list and responded to questions/complaints/bug reports. Way to go guys!

That all said, Microsoft did practically everything they could to squash this project; it was originally installed as an "oh, by the way" in their SDK package (and not enabled by default...you had to go hunting for it) and then they removed it entirely. Official communcations always seemed to revolve around the message that "We acknowledge that it exists, we would prefer you not use it, and no we're not going to tell you why." I guess they had some fear that everyone was going to dump the millions of lines of existing MFC code for much better written code that ... has the same interface. Go figure.

Trust me from one who has used this library in apps that reached production: this is a true gem amist all the cubic zirconia that MS puts out.

always open source!

[dudifeuer]

WTL was always open source. It was distributed as a bunch of header files (along with some sample apps and visual studio wizards). The big test here will be if Nenad will accept (direct) contributions from the community, or whether the community will keep track of bugs and document stuff while Nenad will code.

Nenad is amazing and has really been the core developer of the project (he is now the project admin at sourceforge), but it will be interesting to see the OSS process at work here.

Microsoft + Sourceforge =

[imidazole2]

Microsoft + Sourceforge = The End Of The World

Re:WTL for stand-alone executables

[DrXym]

The learning curve for MFC is high too. If it weren't for the wizards, you would have to write the swathes of code just to do something simple. WTL is no worse, and the consensus from anyone who has used MFC in anger is what a baroque piece of junk it really is. It's like a dogshit covered icing and marzipan - superficially tempting but take a deep bite and see how much you like it.

Really. MFC works okay if you want stay on the path, but get off the beaten track a bit - say to implement something in OLE like an OLE message filter - and it becomes a nightmare. Half the methods are not virtual compelling you to cut and paste whole classes to change a few lines. I've literally copied huge chunks of MFC to change a function that I could not override.

And MS in their wisdom have tried to merge MFC & ATL into atlmfc with duplicate classes galore. Now they're trashing ATL by deprecating some of the tried and trusted conventions such as object maps in favour of meta info that ties ATL tightly to VC++7.x. Still, ATL is fast and produces very tight code compared to MFC.

WTL works much like ATL, and neither is particularly hard to learn assuming you've seen any STL, MFC, wxWindows etc. in your life.

Interestingly, no one has pointed out that WTL depends on ATL. The CPL'd WTL depends on the proprietary ATL. So its use is rather limited. It would be great to see MS open up MFC, ATL and WTL since it would make porting apps to Wine a lot easier. Perhaps that's why it is unlikely to ever happen.

Get started with WTL

[klin]

I started Win32 programming with WTL. No MFC experience at all.

For those of you who may be curious about this technology, here are a couple of points:

WTL is a collection of header files with the source inlined in. Personally I find the source reasonably understandable. I have had not much trouble stepping through and debugging WTL calls.

It's a light wrapper around the Win32 API. Some people commented on the lack of documentation regarding the WTL. The truth is, MSDN's API and common controls documentation pretty much covers what you need to know. For most cases the library does little fudging between your app and the API behavior.

For the application I am coding, I use strictly STL strings, containers, and various Boost libraries. With WTL, I don't feel that I am paying for things I am not using like CStrings and such. For non-UI OS calls, I use ATL. In short, WTL, STL, & ATL let me produce efficient code without worrying about reinventing solutions.

One thing I am worried about is the future of WTL. Open-sourcing is great, but I don't know what direction the Windows API is heading. As .NET seeps deeper into the Windows Platform, I am afraid that MS is going to try to root out such a quick and painless way to whip out applications in unmanaged code. There's life in C++ yet, I just don't know if MS believes that.

MS on SF

[Slapdash X. Hashbang]

I assume that Microsoft has twice chosen Sourceforge to host their OSS projects because of the visibility and credibility it lends their open source steps. However, MS certainly doesn't need SF's resources. Does anyone know if MS has made any donation -- monetary or otherwise -- to SF?