Slashdot Mirror
P-P-P-PowerBook for a S-S-S-Scammer...
kormoc writes "It all started with a ebay auction when the seller got a email from a dude who wanted to scam him. It was a normal setup and it went horribly wrong... for the scammer. This has turned from a awful plight for a ebay user to a wonderful prank on the scammer. Throw in some crazy brits with digicams and you have the making of a great story.
Mirror
Mirror"
That should get the coffee out your nostrils on a fine sunday morning. Note that you have to download the PDF to read the story.
The government hasn't been scammed. If anything they've been unscammed. The government collected taxes way in excess of what they'd otherwise get if the package had been valued correctly.
On Apple Input Peripherals: They're okay, I guess, but I was really hoping for a one-key keyboard and a 109-button mouse
The scammer (buyer) faked an escrow service that disappeared shortly after the "item" was shipped. The escrow service was the way both parties agreed to send payment. Since this agreement was obviously violated on several levels, I cannot see how the "buyer" has a leg to stand on.
You know it's coming: Scammer auctions P-P-P-Powerbook on eBay to cover cost of customs duty.
This story is getting popular enough that it just might work.
My instinct tells me the prof in Terre Haute has nothing to do with it, and just had his name pulled out of a directory to be stuck on a domain registration, as a red herring.
How does the Slashdot Effect happen given that no slashdotters ever RTFA?
Except that there's not law in either the UK or USA that says you have to send a REAL powerbook to someone who DIDN'T pay you for it. He pretends to pay, you pretend to send him a real computer.
If a job's not worth doing, it's not worth doing right.
Or, to put things another way: the scammer started it.
[1]wikipedia
Read. Comprehend. Post.
Declared value on items is based upon invoice pricing, not 'current' real value. If you want to get a lower price, you have to pay for a professional 'valuation'.
So, since the agreed price was the amount 'paid' by the seller, that would be the declared value, not the aggregated cost of the parts used to make the product.
"What is right is not necessarily legal. What is legal is not necessarily right."
Honey, I shrunk the Cygwin
So explain to me how he defrauded paypal, ebay, and fedex again? I guess getting money to ship an item is fraud against paypal? Using ebay to try and sell a legitimate item, then getting an offer OUTSIDE ebay is defrauding ebay? Shipping an item to someone is defrauding fedex? He used these services as they were intended, and did not commit fraud against any of them.
It's a HUGE stretch to even consider this "fraud" by the seller in the first place, considering THERE WAS NO REAL TRANSACTION TO BEGIN WITH.
I would also like to point out that this seller defrauded Paypal, Fedex, eBay, the scammer and it just (in my opinion) tells scammers what mistakes to avoid in future, more sphisticated scams.
WTF are you talking about? I read the story, so please tell me:
How did he defraud Paypal? He asked people to contribute a buck via Paypal to help cover the costs of shipping this item overseas. They knew exactly what it was for and chose to contribute of their own free will. There was no trickery involved. The auction payment never went to Paypal, it went to a phony escrow service, i.e. there never was a payment.
How did he defraud FedEx? They were paid for their services.
How did he defraud eBay? They got their listing fee and final value fee on the auction. It doesn't look like he has relisted the PowerBook for sale, so he does not meet the requirements to have the final value fee refunded due to a non-paying bidder.
Finally, who cares if the intended victim screwed the scammer? What's the shithead going to do, press charges? I'd like to hear that phone call to the police: "Hey, I was trying to defraud this guy out of his $2000+ PowerBook and he sniffed out the scam, turned it around, and made me pay $X in taxes on a 3-ring binder-- now will someone please prosecute him?"
This is not a very sophisticated scam if it can be put together by someone with such a poor grasp of English. The problem is not sophisticated scammers-- it's unsophisticated and/or just plain greedy scammees. I have sold quite a few laptops on eBay, and there are always idiots who try to get me to fall for stuff. Ain't gonna happen, because I will not ship overseas for any amount of money-- especially to the practically-lawless, armpit countries these scammers usually reside in (the scammer in this story was an exception). They also never want to do things the way I specify they will be done in my auction listings, which is something else that should set off alarm bells in the mind of any intelligent person. They always want to pay via escrow, or have me end the auction early and offer me some absurd amount of money to do it. I don't.
The moral of the story is, don't be stupid and greedy and you won't get scammed. The guy who pranked this scammer wasn't, and didn't.
~Philly
That logic doesn't follow in this case, unfortunately. It would be fraud because he didn't send the item described in the auction. If I sold you a stereo valued at $500 and sent a computer valued at $500 with no intention of sending the stereo you purchased, that is fraud. The customs declaration said "PowerBook," not art. Again, fraud. I have the feeling though, since the guy who started it was committing computer fraud (fraudulent web site for the purpose of theft), he's probably not going to press charges. :)
who's the scammer and who's the victim?
Which is even better, because now when that person complains to their credit card company (lets assume Visa), and the Visa goes to investigate the fraud, it will lead them to Fedex. Now Fedex and/or customs knows who the person is, and this guy can go down for credit card fraud!
What you missed was that he listed an actual PowerBook on ebay - and actually SOLD said PowerBook on eBay to a legitimate buyer. The events of this story all take place SEPERATELY from the eBay sale, outside of eBay. No defrauding of eBay went on here.
As for defrauding PayPal - all he asked for was donations for shipping an item to Great Britain, and said funds were used for that purpose. I think that accusing him of defrauding PayPal is a bit of a stretch - you might make the argument, but I don't think anyone would really swallow it.
The only defrauding that went on here is FedEx - the contents of the package and value were both misstated.
Jaded Cynicism A+
Reading Comprehension F-
<mode="pedantic">What auction? The e-bay auction was rescinded, so there could be no fraudulent transaction.</mode>
Since no money changed hands, the buyer cannot claim he did not receive the article he paid for.
As to what was on the customs declaration, your assertion seems likely, but you are arguing facts not in evidence. Maybe the pranksters honestly filled in "p-p-p-powerbook"
How does the Slashdot Effect happen given that no slashdotters ever RTFA?
Don't know about illegal (I don't live in the UK), but unethical? Sure. But hey, If eBay isn't going to provide tools that their customers can use to tell friend from foe (as opposed to middlemen that get big fees in exchange for trusted status), things will degenerate into Internet-vigilante justice.
Fred
"A fool and his freedom are soon parted"
-RMS
The concept of "lesser of two evils" also comes into play... which is to say that it's okay to comitt a crime if it's being done in order to get in the way a larger crime.
In order for the scammer to claim that he was the victim of a fraud, he'd end up confessing to the original scam which was much more serious. Most judges and prosecuters would grant immunity to the people who sent the "P-P-P-PowerBook" in order to bring down the larger scam artist.
So, there goes that silly export fraud claim..
Whether or not the transaction was on or off eBay - he DID list an actual PowerBook - but shipped a "scammer's mockup"
Which was not BOUGHT through eBay. Remember the part about avoiding fees?
He did put ON THE FEDEX slip that it was a PowerBook and insured it FALSELY for $2200. The recipient could have claim potential (regardless of the fake escrow service)
That was the sketchy part, but why would the seller do that, and release his own address and contact details? Won't happen. How does that gurt FedEx? It does not.
He did use Paypal to collect funds to "scam the scammer" - I believe Paypal would not look favorably on this.
He collected funds to ship a real box!! PayPal doesn't care what you collect money for, but there's nothing even questionable about this!
His BEST option was to simply not ship the item if the buyer didn't use the services and payment methods the seller wanted. PERIOD!
Why is that best? I enjoyed the story, and the work of the fake powerbook. If you define "best" as dull then I guess you might have a point. No-One was hurt in this. Two parties lost a little money, and we all got some entertainment - and perhaps, just perhaps, this guy won't try the same thing again!
I'm all for the scammer being scammed - but poetic justice and vigilante justice are not the same.
No they are not - vigilante justice is when the guys showing up at the store have bats instead of cameras. Now do you understand?
Again, there was no physical harm to anyone and both parties lost some money - and not even that much. And the scammer did get SOMETHING for his money.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
While this is a great story, did this guy really need to register p-p-p-powerbook.com for it? People register domains for the stupidest reasons.
Also, what's with the 28 page PDF? What's wrong with just HTML? That alone would cut down his bandwidth usage, especially in light of all the publicity this story is getting.
Yeah, I know, -1 Flamebait.
I like my women like my coffee... pale and bitter.
As far as I know, there aren't. And I just completed a bunch of coursework for FedEx, so....
The way it works is like this: You pay an amount of money based on what shipping method (Express, Priority, 2 Day Delivery, etc.), and on how much the package weighs. (There are extra fees like Saturday delivery, residential shipping, etc.)
If you declare the value of the package to be $100, there isn't any extra charge. (If you leave that area blank, it's assumed to be $100.) Anything over a declared value of $100 has an extra charge, depending on how much you're declaring it to be worth.
Now, in this case, the sender of the p-p-p-powerbook had to spend the money to FedEx it to England. As long as it doesn't violate FedEx's rules or regulations on package contents, and it's legal to ship to England, then FedEx really doesn't care what it is. And I'll tell you right now, the tax collectors in England won't care either. They've been paid the VAT (or whatever), and it doesn't matter to them that it's a three-ring binder with Sharpie artwork and broken keyboard keys.
The person who needed to get slammed got slammed, and numerous other people got a laugh and a bit of education about it.
Kierthos
Mr. Hu is not a ninja.
Why would UK customs be upset? More money for the UK piggy bank.
This is someone getting their just desserts, and in a damn funny way too. Just as good as sending the box, marking it "MUST BE CHECKED BY CUSTOMS" and sticking a polythene bag of flour in there.
PocketGamer.org - For the gamer on the go!
Yeah, this guy had balls. I've heard of cases where there has been murders over stuff like this- not sure if it is true or not but think about the quality of people that you are dealing with on the other end and then ask yourself whether it was worth it.
Amusing, none the less, and entertaining to read. But overall I think you are better off just reporting the scam and letting it go. Sure, reporting it probably won't result in anything, but it is about the most we can legally do.
Actually, the reason you got a canned response is most likely the fact that this scam was sent to many many people, and eBay (more specifically, PayPal) was dealing with an overwhelming number of inquiries into what it was about. I personally know 4 people (including myself) who recieved that e-mail.
The coordination that existed all under the nose of the target is amazing. They had three operatives just waiting there, and dozens of others investigating the crime and tracing every possible connection.
If just some guys on a message board can do this, what does this say about organized crime? About the police? I can't even imagine the possibilities for the group that stays connected like this.
The Political Programmer
NO MONEY FOR THE POWERBOOK WAS SENT OVER PAYPAL.
I don't know why you cannot understand that key point. All that was sent over PayPal was donations to help him pay for shipping!!!!! It was all donations and had NOTHING AT ALL do to with the powerbook itself!! At no time did the SELLLER USER PAYPAL. RFTA RTFA RTFA.
Let me put this yet another way so that you might comprehend. People sent monery TO the seller - expecting NOTHING IN RETURN, as they were donations!!!!
As for the eBay thing, the seller did not, in fact, do that at all! He listed a REAL powerbook on eBay. He then proceeded to sell a FAKE powerobok to a seller, indepndantly - so no eBay rule was broken!! He may have defrauded a frauder, but eBay had NOTHING TO DO WITH THAT other than being a place where the scammer learned the seller had something they wanted. He only mentioned the dropping fees as a way to hook the scammer on the plan, if you read carefully (I may have mentioned that before a few times).
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
This kind of vigilante approach is risky, because while you may or may not have guessed correctly that someone is trying to defraud you, sending a piece of plastic instead of a PowerBook is definitely attempted fraud.
For example, if the guy at the other end has a mean streak and some spare cash, he may just send the $2100 and then charge you with fraud. Try explaining to the police and judge that you thought you were being defrauded because some WHOIS information didn't look right to you when the other guy can prove he sent the money to you and you sent him a worthless piece of plastic. Or maybe you are just dealing with a very unprofessional operation, but not necessarily a fraudulent one.
If you believe someone is trying to defraud you, just don't do business with them, contact eBay's fraud department, and maybe go to the police. That's better for everybody involved.
There is an old saying: "You can't scam an honest man".
Now you understand why that is true.
PDFs take a bloody long time to display (unless you have a top of the line 'puter and a broadband connection, it takes as long to load a PDF as it does to load Photoshop).
Just because you can mod me down, doesn't mean you're right. Shoes for industry!
No doubt. IIRC, the Nigerian government has publicly stated that part of the blame for 419 spam lays in "the greed of foreigners."
if the guy at the other end has a mean streak and some spare cash, he may just send the $2100 and then charge you with fraud.
Any fraud claim done in this way would be easily shot down. Via tracking numbers, postmarks and dated receipts it would be possible for the seller to prove that he shipped the item and it was received by the "buyer" before the "buyer" made payment. IANAL, but if the "buyer" sent payment after knowing he had been sent a jacked-up 3-ring binder, I'd say that constitutes implicit acceptance of/satisfaction with the item-- he'd be screwing himself.
And if he had $2100 in spare cash laying around that he could send to someone to try to nail them for fraud, why not just spend it on a brand new PowerBook from Apple and avoid the effort of trying to fuck someone on eBay?
This is a great example of turning the tables on a scammer. If more people had the intelligence and creatvity to do this sort of thing, we could really put a dent in the activites of on-line crooks.
The way I see it, the scammer got what he deserved and you've really got to scrape the bottom of the barrel of technicalities to find something that the seller did that was "illegal".
IANAL, but the only thing "illegal" that was done by the seller was mis-stating the value of the item on the customs form. And even that could be debated. If I paint a picture and declare that it's worth $10,000, who is to say that it's not?
1, Ebay was not defrauded. The seller sold the real Powerbook to a legitimate buyer on Ebay. Ebay got paid.
2, Fedex was not defruaded. They got their $80 for shipping the package.
3, Paypal was not defrauded. Every day, thousands of people use Paypal to collect donations for various things. The seller said he needed money to cover the cost of shipping a package and that's exactly what he used the money for.
4, The government was not defrauded. They got paid their customs duties when the scammer picked up his package.
5, The P-P-Powerbook seller never received a penny from the buyer (the attempted scammer).
He didn't insure it. The $2,000 price was to jack up the VAT that the scammer had to pay.
So, technically he did mistate the value of the package to UK customs, but he _overstated_ the value, giving UK customs more money than they diserved. I don't think they'll be upset by getting too much money.
Not to mention it may be worded in the law that so that understating the value is illegal, but overstating the value is not.
Oh, I don't know, maybe the fake escrow site complete with its own fake Verisign popup tipped him off.
Maybe you should read more.
My school had a policy that anyone involved in a fight/assault was suspended, even if you didn't hit back you were gone. And yes, that was enforced. I got a 3 day vacation for being on the receiving end once.
Although unfortunately common, this sort of policy reflects a fundamental contempt for the concept of justice, and sets a terrible example for students. What it reflects is a fundamental laziness and irresponsibility on the part of the administration. They take the easy course of punishing the innocent rather than going to the trouble of investigating the situation. It gives great power to bullies, who are able to force the suspension of an innocent student by attacking him. Although the intent is to discourage fighting, it tends to make fights worse, because once a fight begins, you have nothing to lose by retalliating. It would be terribly unfortunate if you happened to have a sharpened pencil in your hand when you were attacked. Somebody who started a fight with you could suffer a horrible accident...