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Strategy Videogame Upsets Chinese, Gets Banned
An anonymous reader writes "China's State News Agency, Xinhua reports that China's Ministry of Culture has banned a computer game for 'distorting history and damaging China's sovereignty and territorial integrity'. Paradox's PC strategy game 'Hearts of Iron', was accused of distorting historical facts in describing Manchuria, West Xinjiang, and Tibet as independent sovereign countries in the maps of the game. 'All these severely distort historical facts and violate China's gaming and Internet service regulations,' the Ministry's Game Products Censorship Committee said. 'The game should be immediately prohibited.' [via China Digital]"
no matter how much it may sting, you can't repress the truth forever. I'm sure the people whom you've stomped on won't forget the truth.
Tibet *was* an independent sovereign nation before China took it over. Just because you don't like being known as a bully doesn't mean you aren't one.
Be very, very careful what you put into that head, because you will never, ever get it out. -Thomas Cardinal Wolsey
Wow, I hope they never get their hands on Civilization...
Hope they dont see this.
"Sic Semper Tyrannosaurus Rex."
... And this surprises anyone because...?
;) )
I admit, that this takes it to a new extreme though - what's next, censoring science fiction because the physics in the book violate the sci-fi laws that the government approved of?
I wonder if because the game is banned, will it push it underground, and make it more popular. (In that case, start hosting torrent files, people!
"What do you think?" "I think 'What, do you think?!'"
Capitalism has little to do with freedom. The issue here is not one of capitalism, but one of freedom of speech.
their collective heads will explode.
That's basicallly what I've been telling to Japan, but they won't heed my warnings about Godzilla even though Sim City clearly proves their existance!
To really piss them off, send them a copy of Shadow Warrior.
Unfortunately, I don't have good hard figures on the death toll from China's genocide in Tibet (as opposed to the genocide committed against ethnic Chinese during the great Leap Forward and the Cultural Revolution, estimates for which range between 30-60 million), and Rummel doesn't have an seperate index entry for Tibet in Death by Goverment. Here's a protest poster that claims 1.2 million Tibetans have died as the results of China's occupation. We probably won't know the real number until (like the Soviet Union) after China is liberated from Communism at some future date.
Lawrence Person (lawrencepersonh@gmailh.com (remove all "h"s to mail)
http://www.lawrenceperson.com/
did Tibet have to be "taken over" if it wasn't a sovereign nation?
China is already a thoroughly capitalist country-- that is, a state capitalist country, in which the whole country is basically run for the profit of the state-owned industry. It is already quite removed from the old Soviet system, and is largely devoid of the traditional Maoist rhetoric about the dictatorship of the proletariat et al. They also seem to be moving fairly rapidly (by Chinese standards) in the direction of a more traditionally capitalist economy, with more privately-owned companies and foreign investment. Of course, that hasn't really resulted in a decrease in the state authority over speech, the press, etc.; it's just that now the state uses its authority to ensure corporate profits rather than the victory of the workers' revolution.
There is a sense in which China is taking a realistic road: they realized decades ago that the Soviet-style command economy wasn't going to get them anywhere, but they were also keen enough to realize that rapid reforms like glasnost and perestroika led to the sudden decline of the Soviet state before a stable alternative economy could be developed, with the resulting economic hardships, explosion in organized crime, and civil unrest. So in a sense they're taking a gradual course out of traditional Communism to avoid the problems of Gorbachev. On the other hand, those in charge of the state-run industries aren't just going to give up that power, so they want to insure that in the post-Communist economy they're still the majority shareholders, so to speak.
I am Sartre of the Borg. Existence is futile.
If I post "CHINA SUCKS!!", how long do you think it will be before the Ministry's Game Products Censorship Committee bans slashdot as a violation of Internet service regulations??
It IS ridiculous, because they complain that: 'Moreover, "Manchuria", "West Xinjiang", and "Tibet" appeared as independent sovereign countries in the maps of the game. In addition, it even included China's Taiwan province as the territory of Japan at the beginning of the game."
Well, Taiwan WAS a Japanese colony in 1936, (following the 1894 Sino-Japanese war Taiwan was ceded to the Japanese) and Tibet WAS independent till 1959 when China invaded it.
Although this is not banning or censoring, strictly speaking, the Bush administration and the corporate media is not much better than its Chinese equivalents.
They distorted the facts about the real reason for the Iraqi war -- the claim that there were WMD were at best speculative, and at worst plain lies.
The US (and European - the Danish, at least) mainstream media have been very US-friendly and projected into most people the sense that somehow, the war was 'OK', even though there were no WMD, and therefore no valid reason (besides money, oil, power, and influence) to invade a sovereign nation.
The US surely can't point fingers at China for not upholding the basic human rights. The imprisonment of many people in Guantanamo Bay with no trial, no evidence, and for basically no real reason other than show the right-wing voters (who sadly seems to be the majority of US voters) that "we're doing something about terrorism".
As a Dane, it's just so sad to see how the Danish government is following the US lead in practically everything. "Oh, we'd sure like the Danish prisoners out of Guantanamo Bay, but if we cannot, they probably deserve to be there anyway. And we sure don't give a flying fuck about any other prisoners than the Danish."
China bans games (and other things) all the time. Command & Conquer Generals was banned for how it portrayed the Chinese. When I played c&c generals, I didn't expect the screwy accents and "propaganda center" to necessarily agree with the Chinese people, much less the Chinese government. In defense of c&c, though, after playing it I did have a greater realization of the threat terrorism could have on China due to geography. The U.S. has it much easier being isolated between two great oceans.
Anyway, the annexation/aquisition/takeover/whatever of Tibet has been a controversy (for some) over recent years. So, it doesn't surprise me that "territorial integrity" is an excuse they cited. They can be picky about how you draw their borders.
A more fundamental question, though, is how serious people take this. It's just a game. Who actually believes what they see in video games?
Banned is so in. If you get your game, film, book, music, t-shirt or pretty much anything you can banned then everyone will want it. Even if you cant get it banned, just get it disliked by some authority and you've got a sure winner, infact even the people who hate it will want to see what all the fuss is about! Just some recent examples:
The Passion of the Christ (have you seen it?)
GTA (Australia, germany, blood-patch?)
Michael Moore films (Always winning Oscars)
Teenage Sex (Its all about Bush!)
CSS t-shirts (ok no-one outside slashdot cares but still)
Nick-Berg video (No-one gave a url... 3 days later everyone had it)
and ofcourse (see sig) the Vanunu interview by the BBC which has been smuggled out of Israel and gets aired tomorrow (like totally in your face sharon!)
This comment does not represent the views or opinions of the user.
When will we see a real democracy emerge from the ruins of this wretched shell of a communist regime? Do you still think you will see 1 billion more people free in your lifetime? Will it be a bloody revolution or a revolution of roses?
An Education is the Font of All Liberty
So the Chinese government is censoring free speech? Do you support that, or not?
Everytime you go to Walmart, Target, and other "Made in China" clearing houses, you are supporting China, and placing another fatal blow to locally owned American small business.
Authority questions you. Return the favor.
But it is inaccurate. This is communst dogma at it's height and it's an ego trip about geopgraphy. Tibet had been a long-standing independent tributary to imperial China and was not a true part of China until the reds forced it into becoming a secular province in the 50s and kidnapped their second highest religious leader. And at the time of the Tibetan takeover, let's remember that the Republic of China was internationally recognized as China, not the People's Republic of China until the 70s. It's completely inaccurate to leave Manchuria out as a separate entity (sovereignty is up in the air though) because Japan occupied most of northeastern China and did in fact set up the puppet state of The Empire of Manchuria. So I can't see how you got a +5 insightful by not knowing any of the history that the evil communist Chinese government are supposedly trying to rewrite.
My hippy neighbor's VW van is literally COVERED with "Free Tibet" stickers. And since the muffler doesn't work for crap, it makes a noise a LOT louder than a mere peep.
>i>"If you had invaded a country, committed genocide against it's people, done all you can to stamp out their indigenous culture ... ...colonized it and incorported it into your own nation, I'm sure you'd want to repress all mention of it as well."
_ american2.html).
You mean like every stolen land-based "state" in the western hemisphere, such as the USA, which gave aborignals disease infested blankets, hunted and killed with efficiency, and then moved them onto reservations of mostly useless land far away from their original farming/hunting grounds?
Hmmm sounds mighty familiar to me. Hell, the US Supreme court even ruled way back that the dispossession of Cherokee and other aboriginal nations was illegal, according to law, but the US just decided to send the army and IGNORE> their own courts/laws (ie: consititution)
(see a description here: http://memory.loc.gov/learn/features/immig/native
Nobody much wants to hear about that, do they? Nor do you hear anyone (well, except proud newfoundlanders) talk about how the Beothuks were exterminated in Canada....
or how current government policies of "racial quantum (purity) assessment" allows the government to say who IS and ISN'T Aboriginal, thereby stripping them of their last shred of power: The right to self identify and gather as a nation. It also has the great effect of pitting "status" Indians with their 'on the dole' rights against "non-status" who often seek some of those rights, but are denied due to shrinking government handouts.
Pretty world we live in here in the west, eh? Nope, nobody being colonized HERE. Oh, right, we just call it immigration.
Oh my gawd, they killed kenny's mod points!!!!
Yes, Tibet is just a misunderstanding.
And those religions that China keeps persecuting? Yes, just a difference of opinion.
one commentator put it "Imagine if the Nazis upon invading France had pulled down every church except Norte Dame, and burned and looted every museum except the Louvre. That's what China did in Tibet."
He forgot "forcibly sterilized", "imprisoned & tortured clergy", etc. but I guess the guy didn't have a spare half hour to extend his analogy. The Chinese gov't = teh suck. Evil, hypocritical old men. Thank god they're our allies (mostly).
Freedom: "I won't!"
"Free Tibet" sticker owners are nothing but bandwagoners. Do you see stickers about "Free Algerians who got their heads cut off by extremists" or "Free [insert oppressed African minority group]"? The only reason the "Free Tibet" sticker is on is because some celebrities endorsed it. Nothing more. Some people go a little further and deify the Dalai Lama as some saviour of human rights in Tibet. What a crock. This is the same guy who at one time ran a theocracy in Tibet (and sicced scorpions on people who didn't pay their taxes on time) - yes, the same guy who got the obviously politically motivated Nobel Peace Prize. History has repeatedly shown that the whole "my enemy's enemy is my friend" thing usually doesn't work out too well in the end.
Well, seriously, the damage has been done a long time ago. Tibet has been continuously ruled by China (via the Qing Dynasty) for several hundreds years prior. Waiting another few more years before the Communist Party disintegrates in the very near future won't be too bad. The rising Chinese middle class will inevitably change things in that region - all for the better.
There are a huge number of yeast infections in this county. Probably because we're downriver from the bread factory.
Well, Taiwan WAS a Japanese colony in 1936, (following the 1894 Sino-Japanese war Taiwan was ceded to the Japanese) and Tibet WAS independent till 1959 when China invaded it.
You are missing the point. Leftists regimes really think that they have the right to dictate history and the "official version" of facts. The ChiComs really love to cry about the Rape of Nanking but seem to forget that Maoists murdered millions of their own people too.
LK
"Hi. This is my friend, Jack Shit, and you don't know him." - Lord Kano
Nice to see they are keeping up on their censorship of games. They're in good company, what with Wolfenstein still being illegal in Germany.
...to point to the West's (undoubted) human right failures, and say "we are no better than they." Guantanemo Bay is just one example; you could add the goings on at the prison in Iraq, or the temporary "extradition" of terror suspects to regimes like Saudi Arabia, who do torturing for the US government.
;-)) are far from perfect. And groups like Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International point to US and European shortcomings on a regular basis.
No doubt, Western governments (not even European ones
But to pretend this somehow means that the US is no better than Nazi Germany, Communist China, or Theologist Iran is absurd and disturbing.
In the US, as in Europe, the people can choose "regime change" every five years, if they don't like the government. Anyone (practically) can stand for government, even former wresters and movie starts. There are a range of different political parties, and even when they do not win power, they could, and they help shape the agenda.
Is that true of China? Or Iran?
In the West, women generally have equal rights to men; whites to blacks; and jews to Muslims.
In Saudi Arabia, and much of the Middle East, your rights are severely curtailed, or practically non-existent, if you fail to have the "right" charectaristics.
Best of all: in the West we have a (basically) free press, and freedom of expression. You can say whatever you want! It can be disturbing (eulogies to paedophilia, or support of mass-murder), but it exists.
In China, or Iran, or so many other places, saying the wrong thing lands you in jail.
Tell me again that the US is just as bad as China. Tell me you would really rather live there. Tell me which of your rights you no longer wish to excercise. Tell me which of my rights you think I don't deserve.
--- My dad's political betting
The difference, of course, is that nothing's being banned in the US because it speaks unfavorably of our past. That is not insignificant.
Mod down posts with a "Free Mac Mini/iPod" sig, they're spam!
And Xinjiang was *CERTAINLY* not an independant nation at any time, ever. It has always been considered an "autonomous region" along with a great portion of that western side of China, but it is by no means independant. It still functions under the rules and mandates of the Chinese government(s), and has done so for the past 2200 years.
So I believe that, although their action because of it was a bit extreme, they were at least correct in their reasoning for two of the states. The first one, Tibet, was indeed an independant soverignty until 1950, and so should not have been on that list. (of course, the propaganda surrounding the Tibetan situation with China is such that they would like people to believe otherwise)
And as a final, humorous note... should the United States censor Risk, that divides our country into five partitions. =)
-Vendal Thornheart
China was nearly conquered by Tibet during the Tang dynasty. The Tibetan army stopped miles from the Tang capital, signed a perpetual treaty of friendship with the Chinese, and departed. Today, that treaty is used by the Chinese government as evidence that Tibet was always a part of China. Ugh.
To say that Mongolia, or Manchuria, or Tibet, or West Turkistan are part of modern China because they were part of the Manchu empire is loony - CHINA wasn't part of China then! It was all part of Qing - China belonged to the Manchus, not the other way around! Geez! We're seeing classic disconnection here; a foreign power makes you their bitch for several hundred years, and after you manage to kick them out, instead of saying, "Oh, that was unpleasant, let's try to not do that to anyone else," you turn around and invade your neighbors. Nice.
Imagine, if you will, that Turkey tapped on the US's collective shoulder in Iraq and said, "Oh, thanks, we were looking for that." Imperial claims to territory don't mean jack. And if anyone says anything about 5000 years of Chinese history, my hed asplode - people have been living in what's now Switzerland for what, 10,000 years, but no one but a complete prat would talk about 10,000 years of Swiss history.
The Chinese government is "EVIL" but ti's effective. They are also mostly "Fair". If you follow their rules. You tend to live a normal happy life. If you do not they kill you. Thus, 1 million tibetains had the notiosn of fighting back. They are dead. The rest mostly shut up. Asian cultures aren't as arrogant and stubborn as Islamic/ Arabic cultures. They'd rather subsist under a tyrant then die under a freedom fighter.
Thats why chinese tend not to have too much internal strife. I know I'm chinese and I visit frequently and have a large part of my family there. There are many things that go on that are un fair oppresive and such, but the Gov does try to keep order for the normal folk. For a large number of the population, life isn't bad.
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."
Oh shut up. The government isn't banning the film because it speaks badly about the government. A distributor is choosing not to distribute it, for a myriad of reasons, the most obvious ones being political. The first ammendment gives you a right to expression; it doesn't promise you anyone will give you a bullhorn.
And in that particular case, it looks like another distributor is going to pick up the film anyway.
And as far as Cuba goes, my family comes from Cuba. Cuba is oppressive in terms of free speech, but it is far from the bloodbath that you describe it as. In fact, if you look at the latest U.N. statistics Cuba's quality of life is one of the highest in the world and tops among third world nations: it is close to on par with countries with hundreds of times their GDP, and it is only beneath those nations in quality becuase of embargos that limit their ability to distribute the goods that they have to sell. On TOP of that, Cuba holds one of the leading Biotech industries in the world; their advances rival the United States. They have developed a vaccine for Hepititis-C, a strain that has not been able to be vaccinated in the U.S. and that is not available to Americans because of said economic embargoes. They are also in the testing phases of medicine that cures certain forms of breast cancer without the need for radiation therapy. Cuba would be a highly advanced nation right now, if it weren't for the Communist-fearing embargoes placed upon them. If you want to talk about injustice in Cuba, or starving children, you're going to have to point the finger at the wealthy nations that restrict their trade.
You talk of intellectual honesty: perhaps you should consider that the views you hold about the left and about other countries might not be true after all.
-Vendal Thornheart
There is nothing wrong with corporate censorship. A corporation can decide what it wants to distribute or not, and what it wants to be associated with. Are you saying that corporations should distribute everything, including ant-minority films, or pro-neonazi films, no matter what the backlash?
Disney didn't stop Farenheight 9/11 from being at Cannes, it can't stop the film from going to another distributor. All it is doing is saying it is not in their best interest to be associated with that kind of political movie
D6 63 0D 70 89 81 BB 8E 7B 7C 5F 5D 54 EA AB 73
...they go from being repressed by the state, to being repressed by large corporate interests and the state. Great trade. Basic capitalism says you want to buy cheap, sell expensive, reap the difference.
It is, cruelly and economically put, rational for corporations to preserve the chinese society as a source of cheap labor. If not them, then some other poor people of the earth. That's why you see so little real desire for change among the decision makers.
The state is happy, the corporations are happy, the rest of the world is happy because of cheap products, and the citizens... well, who asks them anyway? That is, if they get to know enough to dissent, and feel their situation is bad enough to want to do something about it.
It's the modern version of slavery, on a global scale. It's a lot cleaner, and a lot less obvious, but the interests are pretty much exactly the same. Produce at subsistance wages, the owner (state) and distributors (large corporations) reaping the profits.
Kjella
Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
The Book of History : describes an era when China, such as it was, was a collection of feudal states that only covered the Yellow River basin.
The Records of the Grand Historian : describe a time when China controlled the Yellow and the Long river basins, with outposts further out but not much else. Also describes the destruction of a tyrannical empire.
The Romance of the Three Kingdoms: China is split into three parts again, all of which together are nowhere as large as China is today.
Hopefully I didn't put any [] around my words.
What would happen if a game had all Linux boxen named "SCONIX" instead? Slashdotters would probably push for a ban ;-)
Table-ized A.I.
How did the US and the UK "let" the Holocaust happen? It took place in Nazi-occupied parts Europe which we were busy attempting to liberate. Should we have fought harder to get there sooner?
Chamberlain. He gave it up more then a Dallas prom queen. Arguably without him and other pacifists, hitler would have had no where near the space to manuever. Also if they didn't bitch slap germany after WWI so hard WWI arguebly woudl never have happened, the Nazi's wouldn't have arisen, and no holocaust woudl have happened.
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."
You do realise that you dont' get much of the news the rest of the world gets. This is corprate self-censoryship. Farenheight 9/11 is an obvious if somewhat weak example. When a incident arises in the middle east, say you bombed a wedding party. The US media will spin in as positive a light as possible because the majority of the News audience doesn't respond well to havign their side becoem the bad guy. In the rest of the world we hear most of the story. When you bombed A platoon of Canadian soldiers, US media spun it as an accident, while the rest of the world heard how the pilots were told to "disengage" but decided to be heroes and disobeyed orders.
Farenheight 9/11 is propaganda from a anti-republican individual. It's not being activly oppressed but it is havign a hard time finding distibution, for fear of government punishment on the distributor. Think of it this way, a corporation is in business for money. The film is garenteed to make a profit (moore has a build in audience). Disney refused to distribute it, likly for fear of "bad" treatment if they do.
Although the US has very little Active censorship (aside from sex), they do have a lot of filterign that happens for different reasons, thus you get a US positive view of the world. But incidentally most of the world doesn't lik you too much. As someone else pointed out, it's not what you got, but how you behave. Like a grade school bully who has a rich family.
Quickie examples:
the USA promotes free trade. The USA slaps tarrifs on Canadian softwood lumber, because the US lumber lobby put enough money in Government coffers. The USA loses the WTO ruling, this tarrif is said to be unfair by a trade body the US helped create. (hippocrites)
Canada has 1 case of BSF, the US closes all borders to Canadian beef. The US has 1 case of BSF, attributes it to a Canadian supplier, no evidence exsists for this. Canada substatially beefs out it's detection methods, the USA keeps it's old detection methods (the ones the canadians were using before). Border stays closed. Reason: US ranchers lobby put enough money in Government coffers to keep it closed.
And all this is to your "best friend" and neighbor. I hate to see how you fuck over your non-friends.
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."
And the response to that is simple:
You were legally entitled to make the post you just did. No one can throw you in jail for making the argument contained in your text.
Of course a great deal of spin, filtering and self-censorship goes on. Of course Big Media is going to present news in a fashion helpful to it financially and poltically. That's no surprise. But so long as dissent is legal and the marketplace of ideas isn't regulated by men with guns and jails, we're basically OK. You and I and anyone with a set of working vocal chords (or typing fingers) is free to respond to whatever nonsense the powers-that-be present with whatever resources we have available to us.
You do realize that, fundamentally, there's no difference between the censorship in the US and China, right?
The basic pattern is to threaten people where they hurt in the given context. In China, the natural lever is inprisonment. In the US, it's money. The use of the lever can be direct ro indirect, but the principle stays the same.
Also, the effect of purporting a lie as the official truth is the same, whether the government does that directly or private corporations do it for the government. If you have no access to an alternate opinion, "freedom of speech" is a moot point, as you had been trained to accept the "one truth" without blinking. And even if, after you've been indoctrinated with the official truth, you hear someone voicing a different oppinion, you're more likely to consider that person mad - after all, everyone knows what the "truth" is.
This is the line China is taking now - repeat something strong enough and for long enough and it will become truth.
Free speech is worthless by itself. You need at least an open-minded education to be able to begin and understand/use it.
Scenario 1: The US bombs a gathering of rebels. The rebels claim it was a "wedding party" (everyone has guns at wedding parties, right?). US and foreign journalists pick up conflicting reports.
Scenario 2: The US bombs a wedding party. US spokesmen claim it was a gathering of rebels (everyone has guns at wedding parties, right?). US and foreign journalists pick up conflicting reports.
Now, I won't say which I think is more likely. Are the rebels lying, or did the US make a mistake?
(Most of the rest of your criticisms are dead on. This particular one just irks me.)
Human/Ranger/Zangband
No, it's not.
If I buy a bootleg copy of Hearts of Iron in China and get caught by the police, what will happen to me? I could go to prison, a nice comfy Chinese prison, for a very long time.
If I buy a bootleg copy of Fahrenheit 9/11, what will happen? I can't get caught by the police, because it's not a crime. (Selling without permission of the copyright holder is illegal, buying is not.) I can pop it in my DVD player and go to town, invite my friends, call the Mayor, the Chief of Police, and the President and tell them all, "I'm watching Fahrenheit 9/11, and you can kiss my ass!" Nothing will happen.
In fact, I won't even have to buy a bootleg. The movie is now legally unencumbered, and I'm sure they will find a distributer very soon. Because we live in a, you know, free country, all you need is one maverick movie house who sees the incredible amount of money that film can bring in, and you have a nationwide Friday-night release.
Corporate censorship is bad, but it should never be compared to government censorship. There is an enormous difference between simply refusing to distribute a work, and punishing anyone who possesses a work.
Mod down posts with a "Free Mac Mini/iPod" sig, they're spam!
They'd rather subsist under a tyrant then die under a freedom fighter.
I used to work with a number of Chinese scientists who'd come to the US for grad school. Some of them clearly intended to stay here as long as possible, but others were more nationalistic. I asked one student (who had pictures of Zhou Enlai and the aftermath of the Naking massacre on his desk) why obviously intelligent people like him continued to put up with the Communists. He said it was because the situation in China kept improving: they now have some form of capitalism, better technology, continuing superpower status, and so on. And as you suggest, as long as you follow the rules you'll do pretty well. He said that if things got worse, they might be more inclined to want a change of government, but right now nobody wanted to rock the boat. I guess if your parents lived through the Great Leap Forward and the Cultural Revolution, modern China must seem pretty terrific.
I've heard similar claims made about the US, although they're usually made by people who think we're not communist enough.
Okay, I'll play the deconstructionism game. "2 + 2 = 4". Is this objective or subjective truth? If the latter, what's the opposing truth? Or is this sum just a piece of propaganda which has been perpetrated over the course of millennia?
All employees must wash hands before seeking equitable relief.
Basically anything that can be construed as glorifing the Nazis is banned, and that includes playing a game where you can be them. The reason for this isn't because they are trying to pretend like WWII and the Holocaust never happened, but quite the opposite. They still see this as an enormous black mark on their country and they allow nothing that makes it look anything but bad.
An over reaction, to be sure, but an understandable one and something you can respect a little more. China is banning things that don't agree with their offical version of history. Germany is banning things that could be seen as glorifing what they consider to be their darkest days.
Do you not know anyone who's gotten married in the last few decades? In the USA, women certainly can keep their surname after marriage. Simply... continue using it! If you don't explicitly change government IDs, you retain the existing name. Nothing to it.
Nevermind, I just figured it out. "Manchukuo" is the Chinese word for Japan-occupied Manchuria, written in the old romanization system (Wade-Giles?). The modern spelling (pinyin) would be "manzhouguo." Isn't Chinese romanization confusing?
Hogwash. This betrays a complete lack of knowledge of Chinese and Tibetan history. Imperial China routinely claimed sovereignty over every state with which it had diplomatic relations, on the theory that the Emperor could only enter into the relationship of master to vassal, including Japan, Okinawa (an independant country until 1609), Korea, and Vietnam. The Qing dynasty may have claimed sovereignty over Tibet, but Tibet was de facto an independent state and did not acknowledge Chinese sovereignty. The Qing did not exercise effective control of Tibet. Nor did the Qing carry out, or for that matter, even attempt, the cultural genocide that the People's Republic has engaged in. The Qing didn't destroy thousands of temples, kill thousands of monks and nuns, suppress the use of the Tibetan language, and settle millions of Han colonists in Tibet. The destruction of Tibetan culture began in 1951, not during the Qing.
In any case, as a matter of international law, the critical fact is that in 1951, at the time of the Chinese invasion, Tibet was an independant state. It had a distinctive population occupying a well-defined territory under the effective control of its own government. The government of Tibet issued currency and passports that were internationally recognized. It entered into diplomatic relations as a sovereign nation with other countries, including Nepal,Mongolia, Great Britain, and Ladakh. In fact, The Republic of China negotiated with Tibet as a sovereign nation at the Simla Conference in 1913-1914.
Notice that the parent contradicts himself. He claims that Tibet was under the control of the Qing, then justifies Chinese occupation of Tibet by the claim that the traditional government headed by the Dalai Lama was an oppressive theocracy. Unless he wants to adopt the implausible view that the traditional government somehow developed between 1911 (end of the Qing) and 1951, by critizing the traditional government he is admitting that the Qing did not in fact control Tibet.
In any case, if the traditional government was oppressive, and it did indeed have its faults, that doesn't justify the introduction of an equaly if not more oppressive foreign government, nor does it justify massive Chinese colonization and cultural genocide. An internal revolution in Tibet might have been justified (though in fact the current Dalai Lama, who was 17 years old at the time of the Chinese invasion, has proved to be a reformist who would no doubt have made considerable changes), but the only legitimate role that China or other foreign countries might have played would have been to assist Tibetans in establishing a more just government.
Xinjiang has been under the control of China for just over two millenia.
Incorrect. Xinjiang was most recently not under Chinese control during the Ming dynasty. It has at various times within the last two millenia been under the control of the Mongols, Tibetans, and been semi-organized/independent under Turkish tribes.
Oh, and Machuria was independent during the Ming dynasty as well. And the only reason it wasn't distinct afterwards (through the 19th century) was that the Manchu conquered Ming China.
It seems that everyone is so sure about theire position. And blame propagandat affecting their mind.
:P
But what is the REAL truth, because after all, in North America, there is a BIG propaganda that Tibet is NOT part of China. Whereas, with in the contry it is saying that Tibet IS.
1) Are you all historians?
2) Can you actualy read Antique Chinness Caligraphy Which Survived WWII?
3) Do you actualy have these documents?
So we are stuck with one major problem, the only people who can actualy verify the facts are chinesse historian living in china. which for a fact, may or may not saying the truth due to political enforcement. Yet, outside the contry, strong political reason makes Tibet a strategic military stronghold in advent of invasion of china. In short, both party (inside and outside) will or may curently have strong interest of persuading their point of view.
The truth is out there, not what the news is saying, in ancient chinesse scroll
... in that area of the world, most males own firearms, usually at least an AK, for various reasons, and YES again, it is a big part of their culture to shoot them off at times of celebration.
That stuff is widely known, BTW, so it's not far fetched at all to believe the people's story at that massacre site. It's happened all over, just last week I was listening (radio interview)to a soldier who just got out, describing how his unit would shoot civilians at the drop of a hat.
You'll just have to face it, the US is starting to get pretty trigger happy over there. And right off the bat, just think on this, EVERYONE "detained" is automatically a terrorist, instantly a non human basically. That's official US policy. All you have to do is follow the news from more than a few places and you can see that. And they really don't care too much about killing innocents (collateral damage), because they had to go in and save innocents from getting killed, on the way to the WMD giant stashes, that were one second away from being launched towards the US. It's a sham really, and we are looking worse and worse every day around the world. On 9-11-2001 everyone around the planet sympathised with us, now they mostly distrust us, and it's PRECISELY from our governments official actions since then. No other credible explanation except that.
I live here, and I am fully confident in saying the bulk of the population here is just plain old fashioned jingoists. Wish I had a dime for every "nuke the ay-rabs!" I have heard from people or read on forums. And the less informed they are,by talking to them to find out, the more stupid sounding and violently racist they sound. That's the PLAN, that's why we have a mass media that operates like that, it's to keep people faked out, dumbed down and following in good little goose stepping fashion, whatever these "elites" think they want. And it WORKS. The theme of genocide is still alive and kicking, unfortunately it's coming from a lot of places, INCLUDING the US, and it's reflected in our governments actions, it speech patterns into officially recognized propoganda newspeak ("detainees"? how utterly intellectually dishonest, and almost every journalist out there still uses the term), and in our controlled large news media which DEFINETLY censors and massages anything important.
No, seriously, you really did misspell "Berkeley, California".
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